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It's not about who wins or loses. Your views are just as good as mine, right? That is one of the things that makes this forum so nice to come to. Even with those whom you are in communion with, may have differing opinions.

If what I had written makes sense to you then great! If not, thats okay. I dont expect to have everyone accept or even listen to what I have to say.

I think this is one of many good subjects that should be addressed.

You know, there is more of these visions that I have not said. What about the first Saturdays? Is that something which you agree with? If so, why?

Timothy, reader

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Well, Reader Timothy,

You call yourself Orthodox but you argue like a Protestant.

I am by no means going to try to engage the multitude of misunderstandings and misrepresentations in your writings; that would be a project of a lifetime. Rather, I bid the forum readers simply to compare Reader Timothy's harangue against the Catholic view of the Theotokos with the Eastern view, as presented in the Akathist hymn:

"Rejoice, thou through whom the curse will cease!"...

"Rejoice, thou through whom creation is renewed!"...

"Rejoice, thou through whom we worship the Creator!"...

"Rejoice, bridge that conveyest us from earth to heaven!"...

"Rejoice, propitiation of all the world!"...

"Rejoice, opening of the gates of paradise!"...

"Rejoice, uplifting of men!"
"Rejoice, downfall of demons!"
"Rejoice, thou who didst trample down the dominion of delusion!"...

"Rejoice, pillar of fire that guidest those in darkness!"...

"Rejoice, forgiveness of many sins!"...

"Rejoice, thou through whom transgression hath been absolved!"...

"Rejoice, gate of salvation!"...

"Rejoice, thou who blottest out the stain of sin!"...
"Rejoice, laver that washest the conscience clean!"...

"Rejoice, salvation of my soul!"...


May we all grow in grace and holiness through the intercession of the Most Holy Theotokos.

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AMEN!

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Glory to Jesus Christ ! Thank you for your input, Vincent and Br. Maximos. I will have to take a closer look at the Akathist of the Theotokos. Could this, perhaps, serve as the topic of a future thread ?

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Just to clarify, I love the Akathist to the Theotokos and pray it regularly. I'm just saying that its attributions to the Theotokos are some of the strongest found anywhere and most Protestants, for instance, would find all their worst fears about "Popish Mariolotry" confirmed in reading such a hymn. But it's not "Romish", it's Eastern.

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Glory to Jesus Christ ! I will again express my gratitude for all of your input. So far I have come up with the following. A) I have learned of at least one Byzantine Catholic parish, Our Lady of Fatima Russian Parish in San Francisco. The Blue Army maintains a Byzantine chapel in Portugal. It does not currently function as a parish. B) There are two ikons for use for the Fatima cultus. One is a Russian ikon of the Fatima apparition. It was probably written during the 1950's. Another is a Blue Army ikon of the Immaculate Heart. C) In 1951 Bsp. Paul Meletiev of Briansk led a Russian pilgrimage to Fatima. The Russians asked Pope Pius XII for a unilateral papal consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart of Mary. D) Saintly Pius XII responded on July 7, 1952 with Sacro Vergente Anno, a papal consecration of Russia to the Immaculte Heart of Mary. The pope had consecrated the world, with an obvious allusion to Russia, to the Immaculate Heart in October 1942. E)There is a form of the Marian Rosary developed by Byzantine Catholics during the 19th century. This Chotki was prayed by several Byzantine Catholic saints whose causes are pending. This Chotki or Rosary was also used by Orthodox in communion with Rome who were praying to the Immaculate Heart of the Theotokos. F)There are two Byzantine Catholic confessors, causes pending, who were devoted to the Theotokos of Fatima. There is a distinctly Byzantine Catholic tradition of devotion to the Theotokos of Fatima. They prayed the Chotki not the Dominican Rosary. They also prayed the prayers revealed at Fatima. They venerated ikons in their ikon corners and in their churches rather than statues. They stood and made metany and prostrations. They did not kneel. These Orthodox Christians in communion with Rome responded to the call of the Theotokos to conversion and repentance in a manner recalling the responses of the Eastern Fathers. They sought theosis by approaching Christ through His Mother. In addition to daily prayer they fasted, gave alms and made sacrifices in reparation for sins, for the metanoia of sinners, and to avert further Divine chastisement. They practised Five First Saturday Reparatory Communion in order to atone for blasphemies against the Immaculate Heart of Mary. They prayed for the Holy Father that he might lead all of the Catholic bishops in a collegial consecration of Russia to the Immaculate Heart. This Byzantine Catholic tradition is consonant with Orthodoxy. I believe that this consecration will return the most of the Orthodox Churches to communion with the See of St. Peter.

[This message has been edited by Doulos of Fatima (edited 11-16-1999).]

[This message has been edited by Doulos of Fatima (edited 11-16-1999).]

[This message has been edited by Doulos of Fatima (edited 11-16-1999).]

[This message has been edited by Doulos of Fatima (edited 11-17-1999).]

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Glory to Jesus Christ ! Here is a Chotki of the Theotokos or Byzantine Rosary prayed by Byzantine Catholics. I think it goes back to 19th century Ukrainian Byzantine Catholics. It is prayed in the traditional Byzantine manner. One stands facing the East and makes a poklony (sign of the cross followed by a deep bow, right hand touching the ground) at any invocation of the Trinity. The Our Father always concludes with the doxology. Use the Byzantine Hail Mary, also called Angelic Salutation I, found in "The Byzantine Book of Prayer." Begin with usual Byzantine introductory prayers as found in "The Byzantine Book of Prayer," 1995, 2nd ed., pp. 7-12. After the introductory prayers profess the Nicene Creed, while holding the cross. Next, holding the first bead pray the Our Father, the Hymn of the Incarnation (O only-begotten Son, etc.), and the "It is truly proper to glorify you, etc." On each of the next three beads pray one Byzantine Hail Mary (Hail Mother of God, Virgin Mary, etc.) On the first bead pray to the Mother of God as daughter of God the Father for an increase of Faith. On the second bead pray to the Mother of God as Mother of God the Son for an increase in Hope. Finally, on the third bead pray to the Mother of God as spouse of the Holy Spirit for an increase in Love. After praying the three Byzantine Hail Marys, conclude with the Glory be to the Father, etc., the Fatima Decade Prayer, and the Jesus Prayer. One may then proceed to pray 5, 10, or 15 decades. Monks usually prayed 15 decades per day ! Meditate on one Mystery per decade. A decade consists of meditation on a Mystery while praying, one Our Father, ten Byzantine Hail Marys, one Glory be to the Father, etc., one Fatima Decade Prayer, and one Jesus Prayer. After the last decade desired one then concludes the Chotki of the Theotokos with the prayer, " We hasten to your patronage, O Virgin Mother of God, etc." I hope that other Orthodox in communion with Rome will find some use for this form of prayer. O Theotokos, conceived without sin, save us.

[This message has been edited by Doulos of Fatima (edited 12-04-1999).]

[This message has been edited by Doulos of Fatima (edited 12-06-1999).]

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Great thread! Also saw it on byzantines.net. My only objection (forgive me if it's been covered already) is the characterization of the Russian Orthodox Church at the time of Soloviev as corrupt because it wasn't under the Pope. Even if one accepts the papal claims, one need not calumniate the other church to prove one's point; besides, Catholicism teaches that reestablishing communion (corporate reunion as Churches) - not individual conversions - is the way to go with the Orthodox. Badmouthing the other church only sets this back.

How could the Church that produced so many saints, thriving monasteries and a living tradition of eldership (Optina, Solovki) - the Russian Orthodox Church that about 70 years later produced the prophetic convert Fr Seraphim Rose - be decadent?

Fatima condemned Communism, not Russian Orthodoxy.

Perhaps the early Russian Catholics - who approached Rome on their own and not because of outside interference - didn't reject what was good and holy in Orthodoxy (otherwise why would many of them want to keep their rite?) but rather became convinced of the papal claims themselves and thus saw approaching Rome as necessary for them, since they came to their understanding.

Glad to read that Fr Alexander (?) Potapov of ROCOR believes in Fatima.

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Dear Dr John,

Thanks for the social history.

>So when I see men running around the streets in full ecclesiastical high-drag

I resent one's equating a sacramental like a priest's cassock/monk's habit (beard, klobuk, chotki, etc.) to transvestite/homosexual garb/games.

You made several good points (electric lights? vespers instead of all-night vigil? No problem!), but the thing is 19th-century Moscow and Kiev were onto something that American culture either has lost or never had to begin with (as it was founded on the sequential errors of Protestantism and English Enlightment deism).

Plus, Orthodoxy today (and here I include Eastern Catholics) is largely about resisting the secular world. What better witness... apostolate... than an Orthodox priest in cassock out on the street... or a church that's open on a Saturday night for vespers/vigil on the edge of a ghetto (the Russian Orthodox churches in Philadelphia) or a 'bohemian' fringe neighborhood (St Michael's Russian Catholic Church in SoHo, NYC)?

Sorry, but the term 'faith community' sends up a red flag ... sounds too much like liberal 'AmChurch' cant. If one means 'parish' or 'church' or 'congregation', say so! Please, no 'new church' jargon, especially in the East.

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Glory to Jesus Christ ! Welcome to the Byzantine Forum, Rusnak. Perhaps a better characterization of Solovyov's views along with the views of some of his "disciples" would be to say that the corruption that these men saw in the Russian Orthodox Church caused them to ask questions about the history of the Russian Church. One of several answers was that the Russian Orthodox Church along with the Orthodox communion of churches had greatly suffered due to a millenium of separation from Rome. They sought to repair that separation. Many critics of the Russian Orthodox Church responded in other ways. Josef Stalin lost his faith and became a Marxist atheist. Leon Tolstoy invented a unique form of Christianity. A number of Russian Orthodox hierarchs got along quite well with the Russian Catholic community, including Tikhon, Patriarch of Moscow. It is true that it is the current policy of Rome to favor corporate reunion. This can change. Ecumenism is a policy and is malleable. Rome could once more adopt a policy of "uniatism."

[This message has been edited by Doulos of Fatima (edited 12-06-1999).]

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Glory forever! Thank you, Doulos. Sounds like your heart is in the right place as you endeavor to be 'the other lung' of traditionalism in the Catholic Church: 'Orthodox in communion with Rome'. Soloviev may have been disillusioned by corruption he saw somewhere among the Russian Orthodox. But... Martin Luther saw corruption too... among hierarchs... yet surely he wasn't right in his conclusions. So corruption among the sinful members - including hierarchs - of a Church don't invalidate that Church.

I hope Rome doesn't go back to uniatism as a means since it would set back the cause of reunion. Dealing fair and square, and respectfully, with the Orthodox is the only way to go, even if that's not always returned.

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Brother Rusnak, thanks for your post. My main point is that for us from traditionally Byzantine households (and ethnic backgrounds), we are just ordinary people, doing our best to live out the Gospel in the ways that were handed down to us. We pray in a certain way because that's what we learned from our grandparents and parents. It's 'natural'. Our communities have changed some things due to the fact that we live in a different century and different (pluralist) country. Our clergy wear black suits and the (Anglican invented) so-called "Roman Collars". We pray in American English and not in Greek and Old Slavonic since many of us don't really think in those languages any more.

What yanks my chain is when outsiders "discover" us, attach themselves to our communities and try to force us to be "true to our traditions", by which they mean anything that makes us stand out in a crowd. There is nothing sacred about a cassock or a kamilavka. They're items of clothing, not sacramentals. And there's nothing sacred about Greek or Slavonic.

Our primary responsibility is to follow Christ's commandments of love of God and love of neighbor, and to preach that Gospel to those who have not heard it. It means that we have to be models of the Gospel as lived in today's world -- not living relics of what our ancestors did. The prayer life, the sacramental life, the community life are all primary ways of witnessing to our belief in Christ. Not our clothes.

PS I use the term 'faith community' to describe organized groups of believers, not to insinuate some post-modern Neo-Papist/Anti-Papist whatever. The term "church" has waaaaay too many different meanings. And the Latin-derived terms "sects" and "cults" have connotations that I don't intend. Hence,.....faith community.

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Dr John,

You're welcome. I respectfully disagree - such garb is a sacramental. The approach 'externals don't matter' seems un-Eastern and kind of 'spirit of Vatican II'.

Your point about 'ethnics' reactions to enthused 'newbies' reminds me of a thread on byzantines.net (was it you who wrote this?) about the new daughter-in-law at the family holiday dinner enthusing about every detail, every custom, till it gets tiresome after about the 100th compliment. :^)

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Tim et al.:

Please remember that this is a BYZANTINE CATHOLIC bulletin board, NOT a BB for the HOCNA, ROCOR, OCA, or any other EO body.

I for one am getting really tired of all the EO polemics on this board.

-D-

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Dunedain,

I'd be interested in hearing more about your time in HOCNA/ROCOR in the mid-'80s if you like.

ROCOR and its writers have been of great help to me, esp. Fr Seraphim Rose, and its preservation of Russian Orthodox customs and the Russian version of the Byzantine rite are exemplary: witness the vitality of monasticism in ROCOR. (I also think the Tsar and his family are saints.) However, like you I pause at the claim that they and they alone are the whole enchilada, Church-wise. I have no time for much of what passes as post-Vatican II Catholicism but Catholicity (universality) may encompass the traditionalists in the Latin Church as well as the East.

You can e-mail me if you prefer.

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