Friends,

The first time that I attended a Tridentine Liturgy (about a year and a half ago), I was struck by the intense reverence. Hence, I found in this reverence a common theme with the Byzantine Liturgy. Perhaps it was the fact that the people and the priest were both facing the same direction. In my opinion, that makes a huge difference in the overall feeling of the liturgy. Also, there was a great deal of beautiful singing AND incense. Those elements also reminded me of my beloved Byzantine Church. However, there also were notable dissimilarities.

I have to admit to being somewhat sympathetic to the Tridentines on some points. In many cases, they had their liturgy - their spiritual bedrock - stripped from them and replaced with a touchy-feely substitute. This primarily applies to the Amchurch parishes, to be sure. But as a man who draws his spiritual sustenance from the Divine Liturgy, I would probably go into spiritual shock if this liturgy was radically altered. Hence, I can feel for the Tridentines.

Nonetheless, I am also a little suspicious of some of them. Why? Because in my past I have met a few Tridentines who, while applauding the beauty of the Byzantine liturgy, bristle at the thought of us having married priests. Some of them even go so far as to insist that deacons should be celibate. I fear that if they got into power, they would put us back where we were a hundred years ago. Of course, that is only a few Tridentines that I have met. I have also met others who are most respectful towards us and all of our traditions.

Just my two cents.

Anthony

Dear Anthony,

Always great to hear from you.

I have to admit to being somewhat sympathetic to the Tridentines on some points.

Uh, is that something to be ashamed of???? Why do some act like they have to diss Tridentines to prove their Byzantine street cred?

In many cases, they had their liturgy - their spiritual bedrock - stripped from them and replaced with a touchy-feely substitute. This primarily applies to the Amchurch parishes, to be sure.

The problem is there not only in hardcore AmChurch parishes but in a lot of mainstream Novus Ordo ones too, because while they have a lot of good points, conservatives seem to accept a very un-Byzantine and un-traditionalist disconnect between lex orandi and lex credendi. As long as they’re doing what they’re told and it meets the bare minimum of criteria for ‘validity’, they go along with it as long as it is not formally heretical, even if it favors heresy and is horrible.

Because in my past I have met a few Tridentines who, while applauding the beauty of the Byzantine liturgy, bristle [...] I fear that if they got into power, they would put us back where we were a hundred years ago. Of course, that is only a few Tridentines that I have met.

I can relate. I had — emphasis on past tense — a few quasi-traditionalist (very conservative) friends and acquaintances like that. Understandably they gradually took themselves out of my life over a few years after I became Orthodox.

Serge

Old World Rus’

[This message has been edited by Rusnak (edited 03-19-2001).]

I had a very interesting conversation this weekend with a rabid sedevacantist in a chat room. He didn't seem to know what to do with us Byzantines. We don't fit into any "neat" categories on the schismatic Latin radar screen...especially since we are in communion with the - presumably non-existent and heretical - Bishop of Rome, worship with traditional fullness, reverence and beauty, are orthodox in faith, favor married priests and don't use the Novus Ordo Liturgy which, as we all know, is the bane of existence upon earth! ;-)

Nothing like being a part of a living sign of contradiction! I actually enjoy catechizing these folks...it seems to be very healing for them.

Peace,

Gordo, sfo

Hello Serge!

Do you want a painfully honest answer? Here it is:

As a Roman Catholic who became Byzantine Catholic, I can testify to there being some suspicion as to why one would make the switch. A few RCs thought that I was looking for a more traditional liturgy, and hence wrongly accused me of having Tridentine leanings. I had never even been to a Tridentine liturgy at this time, but some assumed that this was my motive for switching.

Likewise, I met with many in the BC Church who were complaining about "Vatican II refugees" who would come into their parishes and try to recreate the Tridentine Mass. This of course was the furthest thing from my mind. Nonetheless, one must be very careful not to be mistaken for one of these folk.

Therefore, in order to not be accused of having Tridentine leanings I find it necessary to vocally declare my lack of involvement or interest in the Tridentine movevement whenever I mention it. It is a way of covering my butt, so that I will not be mistaken for a dreaded "Vatican II refugee."

Also, in my job (teaching theology) I deal with a lot of RCs who have no time for the Tridentine movement. It is not uncommon to hear the Tridentine Mass ridiculed by my colleagues. In order to secure my future as a Catholic theologian teaching in Catholic universities, I cannot afford to be associated at all with the Tridentine movement - who are largely characterized as ignorant, fudamentalist trouble makers.

Hence, for my well-being in my beloved Byzantine Catholic Church, and for my future as a Catholic theologian, I cannot risk saying anything positive about the Tridentine movement without qualifying it with a negative. And since I have virtually no experience with the Tridentine movement, I don't feel any particular need to defend it.

I hope that this is honest enough. It's the unpleasant truth.

God bless,
Anthony

Dear Anthony,

You remind me of an episode in the life of Blessed Pope John XXIII.

He asked someone who came to visit him whether he was a theologian.

When that person said, "No," the Pope said, "Thank God, neither am I . . ."

Just something that came to mind.

I have a friend who is a priest whose former parish had 50% former Tridentine Catholics who DID go to the Byzantine Church because they couldn't take the Novus Ordo.

In terms of their impact on Church life, my friend told me they learned to sing the Liturgy in Ukrainian and did everything according to the Byzantine Rite except for making the Sign of the Cross, which they did with three fingers but went to the left shoulder first.

The only other difference my priest told me he could detect which distinguished the former Tridentines from his other parishioners was that they spoke no ethnic language, only English . . .

That's what you get for letting in those Tridentines in the first place . . .

But on a serious side (let's see if I can manage that), Roman Catholics in the Toronto area started to attend churches that were offering Tridentine Masses.

They seemed not to have known (or cared) that these belonged to the Society of St Pius X.

When it got to the point that a Tridentine Cathedral was being built, the Roman Archbishop hit the roof, so to speak, when he found out.

There are now a number of parishes offering Tridentine Liturgies under his auspices here.

I too have been ridiculed for expressing my admiration for the Tridentine Rite.

If it is so "backwards" as the Novus Ordonites say it is, what have they to fear?

Shall we say "a lot?"

Your secret is safe with me and Serge. I wish you every success in your theological career!

Have a Great Fast,

Alex

Dear Anthony,

My experience with Latin conservatives and traditionalists is they don’t stupidly try to force Tridentine practices on their hosts. As I wrote, they’re smart enough to see through the Novus Ordo propaganda so often they know more than the average Joe about the Eastern Catholic Churches and know not to disparage their hosts’ rites and practices. However, my experience also has been they don’t ‘get’ the concept that the Catholic or Universal Church is a family of full Churches in communion with each other. They love the Byzantine Rite (understandable), both in its ‘pure’ form and in the latinized versions found among many Byzantine Catholics, but see the Byzantine Catholics as ‘rites’ of the Roman Catholic Church, which they conflate with the Universal Church. Their problems may be ecclesiological but that usually doesn’t get in the way of their behaving at a Byzantine Catholic church where they’ve understandably taken refuge.

Also, in my job (teaching theology) I deal with a lot of RCs who have no time for the Tridentine movement. It is not uncommon to hear the Tridentine Mass ridiculed by my colleagues.

The Tridentine cause is as worthy of martyrdom, including a living martyrdom, as that of being a serious Orthodox-oriented Byzantine Catholic. Not all are called to that; I understand that. But it is still a martyr’s life.

Serge

Old World Rus’

[This message has been edited by Rusnak (edited 03-19-2001).]

God Alone is Great!
Just thought I'd add my 2 cents worth of personal experience. Although canonically RC, for past five years belong to Byz. Cath. parish. Not too long ago attended Tridentine mass. Everything Latin, which I love, and beautiful Gregorian chant, but I came away with unexpected feelings. Perhaps I was trying to recapture the beautiful past of the early 60's, (such attempts I know are doomed to fail). The silent individuals in the pews and the seemingly slow-motion movement in the sanctuary contrasted sharply with my experience of the Byz. liturgy. The latter seems to keep me focused on the words of communal prayer and the dynamic movement of the celebrant. There is little silence and pause. Am I making any sense? Would appreciate your thoughts. Ciao, Vito

[This message has been edited by Vito (edited 03-19-2001).]

Dear friends,

I don't like generalizing, but since we are making general obserations, let me add mine.

In my expirience, the Tridentine RC's who have come into my parish are not guilty of trying to make any liturgical "Romanizations", etc. What I do note is that they are very unhappy and often bitter people. We Byzantine Catholics sometimes get reduced to our liturgical aspects. What we have though is a certain joy in life. A happiness is worshipping God.

These other folks seem at war with the the world around them. I find them anti-social, cold, they seem to cringe when anyone approaches them in church. They are not the jolly, happy Slavs I am used to.

Just my thoughts, your's might be different.

Olga

Dorogaja Ol’ga, moja sestra v Christe,

We disagree often on this forum and while I wouldn’t have put this particular matter so bluntly, I hear you. We are called to be not of this world but we do live in it, which involves finding God in unlikely places in it. The jolly Slavs you refer to have grown up understanding this. My RC ex-friends sometimes lived down to what you describe.

Vseho chorošoho,
Serge

Old World Rus’

[This message has been edited by Rusnak (edited 03-20-2001).]

Signoumeno sta'kklesias mas stavroumeno.

I think Olga's perspective on some of the folks who drift East being 'sour' is a legitimate one.

But this is a phenomenon that has been raised before: there are some who come East, legitimately searching for a spiritual support. There are others who arrive who are fleeing from something that they don't like.

The former will stay and become integral parts of a Byzantine Catholic (or Othodox) parish. The latter will stay as long as it 'feels good'. They'll keep their erstwhile devotions and practices while 'attending' the Byzantine liturgy (in order to fulfill their "Mass" obligation on Sunday") but they have no sense of connection with their fellow-worshippers and communicants. These folks scare me -- because they oftentimes attempt to thwart the re-newal (i.e., Byzantinization) of the Byzantine parish community in terms of both liturgics and community practices -- i.e., married priests, triple-whammy at baptism, fasting customs, and their unbelievable reliance on the damnable paperwork for legitimacy.

It's the 'nous', the "spirit" of the community that makes us who we are. And they oftentimes just can't get beyond the 'established formulae' that is supposed to be the hallmark of the True Church.

Lord help us.

Blessings!

Dear Serge,
Why not? I do and i am nor nor nor mal.LOL
*head jerking back and forth*

Stepahnos
Unworthy Monk and Archsinner.