Servants of Christ: Some of us are beginning to sound not like Catholics or Orthodox but like protestants i.e.,forgetting that Christianity was not born "sans" a cultural context. Christianity was "birthed" in a Aramean/Jewish Semitic world and quickly-very quickly- spread into the Roman/Hellenic world. Our Holy Catholic Faith that we hold in common as Catholics and Orthodox is the product...IS THE PRODUCT ...of both the East and the West from the very beginning. I might not like that..you might not like that...but this is REALITY!
All of us are acting like idiots. Let's put this gossip-column tabloid behind us and move on. I also visit an Anglican forum and they, even though they would be considered heretics and schismatics, are much better Christians than we are-at least within the boundaries of their message board. And we have the true faith? Have any of us stopped a baby from being butchered today? Have any of us taken the Good News to a person infected with AIDS... today? This is the muck that forces people out of the priesthood and out of the monastic life. Not loneliness-you learn to adjust-but this idiocy is just overwhelming. You ask yourself:"Why am I here?" "What good am I doing?" This is shameful...shameful. All of us are to blame for going on in this mode. We are to be known by our fruit...not by our "fruit cake." And who can stand that?(Don't answer!)
What would Father John of Kronstadt think of this lunacy? Bishop/Martyr Theodore Rhomza? Mother Teresa-the Albanian-product of the East and West? And WWJD? But we won't! We prefer to play the "knock this chip off my shoulder game." Children will be children.

[This message has been edited by Mar Thoma (edited 05-03-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Mar Thoma (edited 05-03-2000).]

Brothers Joe and Mar Thoma,

Thank you both for your words of wisdom. I knew at least in principle what I was walking into. Even Father Tom Loya, my pastor, seemed astonished that I would willingly take on such a vocation. However, I sincerely believe that the cause of Christ means suffering and eventual victory. I also believe "every word that proceeds" from His mouth. If our blessed Lord whose last wish and prayer was for Unity then I gladly take upon myself that same vocation.

BTW No matter what happens to me in the Byzantine Catholic Church it can't come close to the chaos and bitterness I found in protestantism.

Dan Lauffer

Mr. Sweiss --

I shall refrain from the appellation "Brother" inasmuch as from the tone of your posts it is obvious that anyone not associated with your particular brand of Orthodoxy is not a real Christian and is in deep weeds with God. I doubt in your heart of hearts you would really consider me a brother in Christ unless I joined your branch of Orthodoxy.

You know that I am still pondering where to finalize my journey home to the catholic faith of the Early Fathers. I wish to make one thing crystal clear. Your strident polemics and name-calling continue to make Orthodoxy one of the less attractive options as I head around the fourth turn and come galloping home.

Funny to think that Fr. David Beldon of HOCNA would make the same accusations of your branch of Orthodoxy that you make of the Byzantine and Catholic faiths. If this wasn't so terribly sad it would indeed be funny.

The real heretics are the Protestants, or haven't you figured that out yet? They do not have a real Eucharist, they don't have a clue as to what the Scriptures and the Church has taught about salvation for 2000 years. Your "brethren" in the Byzantine and Catholic rites are at least validly ordained, believe in the Real Presence, honor the Blessed Theotokos and the saints in glory, and follow the greater majority of that which the Early Fathers taught. Yet you excoriate them every chance you get for what appear to me as an outside to be the most minor of differences. When they deny the Trinity, the Real Presence, or start teaching some form of heretical Calvinist thought, then I will jump into the ship with you. Right now, it just looks real senseless to me.

Be honest, now. Do you EVER pray for the Catholic Church to straighten up, or are you so smug in your anger against her that all you can do is crow triumphantly over everyone else who is not Orthodox? Did you ever stop to consider that in Romans 2 and other passages, Christ says that He will judge us, not on the preciseness of our doctrines, but on how we lived out the love of Christ to others in lives of good works and faith in God?

Quite frankly, sir, your screed is getting rather tired. It is as annoying as listening to the banal stupidity that Evangelicals and Fundamentalists engage in rather than trying to discourse and learn from the Catholic faith. I applaud those who run this forum for not banning you, showing a higher degree of Christian charity than you seem to possess towards those with whom you disagree.

Defensor Fidei

You write:


> As a Byzantine Catholic I consider myself Orthodox in communion with the Holy Father and pray for the day that all Christians are united under the Vicar of Christ. I love to visit Orthodox churches, pray and learn about our faith. So much of our heritage, theology, art, ect., is recorded and compiled by our Orthodox bretheren. But the problem I have with the Orthodox is that they seem more intent on admonishing Catholics than on admonishing sinners.>

Reply: Talk about a paragraph of contradictions! Either you are an Orthodox Catholic or an Eastern Rite Roman Catholic. There is no such thing as an 'Orthodox in communion with Rome'. It is an oxymoron and an insult to Orthodoxy because it relegates Orthodoxy to a religion based purely on ritual, with doctrine as secondary in nature. Nothing can be further from the truth. Of course you can call yourself anything you want but that sure doesn't make it so.
It never ceases to amaze me when I read some of these statements. In one sentence so many of you will profess your loyaliy to Rome and allegience to the so called Vicar of Christ on earth. Then in the next sentence deny you're Roman Catholicity. And then in the next sentence proclaim your Orthodoxy. The same religion that your ancestors turned their backs on while they took all the beauty of the religion they were denouncing with them as they ran to Rome. And now they want to re-identify themselves as something they are not, something they rejected 400 years ago! Gimme a break!

The same argument you use against Byzantine Catholicism can be used against the Western-rite of Orthodoxy. Orthodoxy has its own "uniat" movement. Very small, it is true, but it does exist! The main fallacy within your argument is that the "Unia" is static. There have been many major changes within the Eastern-rite Churches since Vatican II-not as many as one would like-but the changes are there with a return to the Eastern Fathers and authentic practice. It is unrealistic to expect perfection. From the Italo-Greeks(who have never been out of union with Rome) to the Ukrainians, there is at least some change.

Robert,

The Byzantines never turned their backs on Orthodoxy. They mearly embraced the successor of St. Peter who was commanded by Christ to build His church.

Even you yourself would be unwelcome in certain Orthodox churches, depending on your particular Orthodox affiliation. But if you were to visit the Holy Resurrection Byzantine Catholic Monastery in Newberry Springs, California, you would find Catholics, Orthodox, and even Protestant Christians praying with the monks. Enjoying true Christian fellowship and learning what we can from each other. It is truly a Holy place.

My point is that we must put aside our animosity and antagonism. Trust in Christ's resurrection that we ourselves will be saved as well. Put on Christ, spread his good news, do his good work together.

Our crosses are to heavy to worry about what type of wood they are made of.

The humble servant of Jesus Christ,
John Chizmar

>The Byzantines never turned their backs on Orthodoxy. They merely embraced the successor of St. Peter who was commanded by Christ to build His church.>

And in doing so they ceased to be Orthodox. For, with the exception of the Filioque, they were required to accept all the dogma of the Roman Catholic Church from that point on. Including Purgatory, Papal Infallibility, Papal Supremecy, Immaculate Conception of Mary, etc. to name a few. Many of which have been added since the signing of Brest/Litovsk.
What it narrows down to is the question on whether you believe in all the dogma of the Roman Catholic Church or not. If you do, then you are nothing more than a Roman Catholic who still utilizes the ritual of your Orthodox ancestors. And, you certainly are not an "Orthodox in communion with Rome' as you claim.
If you do not believe in any or all of the above, then you are saying that you are knowingly and willingly under the authority of a Bishop you recognize as upholding doctrine that you yourself don't recognize and is therefore heretical.

>Even you yourself would be unwelcome in certain Orthodox churches, depending on your particular Orthodox affiliation.>

Providing that I am properly prepared, and have the proper requirements from my priest, I would be able to receive communion in any cannonical Orthodox Church in the world. Yes it's true I may be refused in some of the fringe jurisdictions claiming Orthodoxy but then again, you would also be refused in some of the fringe Roman Catholic groups. We have our ROCOR & HOCNA, etc. You guys also have your bogus Roman Catholic groups like Old Catholics, Polish National Catholics, Redemptorists, etc.

>But if you were to visit the Holy Resurrection Byzantine Catholic Monastery in Newberry Springs, California, you would find Catholics, Orthodox, and even Protestant Christians praying with the monks. Enjoying true Christian fellowship and learning what
we can from each other. It is truly a Holy place. >

I have no doubt that it is. And would have no problem visiting or praying there. Only difference is that I would be aware that it is a Roman Catholic monastery who utilizes the Eastern Rite but is ultimately under the authority of what you call the 'successor of St Peter' who resides in Rome. Rather than the other & first successor of St Peter who is still called the 'Patriarch of Antioch'.

>My point is that we must put aside our animosity and antagonism. Trust in Christ's resurrection that we ourselves will be saved as well. Put on Christ, spread his good news, do his good work together.>

Very true. But lets do it in an atmosphere of truth and honesty by identifying ourselves as who or what we are, rather than who or what we'd like to be.

Robert,

Here is the honest truth. I am a Byzantine Catholic. I believe that our allegiance to Christ is more important than our allegiance to structure that approximate the desires of Christ. Christ desires our unity. Therefore, I am joining a group that is honestly working toward it.

How's that for truthfulness.

Dan Lauffer

Robert,

Here is the honest truth. I am a Byzantine Catholic. I believe that our allegiance to Christ is
more important than our allegiance to structure that approximate the desires of Christ. Christ desires our unity. Therefore, I am joining a group that is honestly working toward it.
How's that for truthfulness.

Dan Lauffer

---------------------------------------------

Dan:

I have no problem with what you post and even respect it. I have no problem with you identifying yourself as a 'Byzantine Catholic'. Only problem I would have is if you deny you are part of the Roman Catholic Church or claim you are 'Orthodox in communion with Rome'.

The real issue here is, 'Do the postschism Roman definitions contradict Eastern Orthodox theology'? Serious Byzantine Catholics say no (while saying the Roman language may not necessarily apply in the Eastern theological framework they share with the Orthodox). As for the Orthodox, there has been no Orthodox ecumenical council since preschism times, therefore the highest authority in Orthodoxy never has proclaimed postschism Catholicism heretical. (And Catholicism never has called the Orthodox heretics. Basically on paper, Orthodoxy IS Catholicism circa 1000.) There are vocal Orthodox who do claim Catholics are in heresy but it is only their opinion - since it's an open question, they can hold such and be Orthodox. There are other Orthodox whose views largely mirror Rome's - like Peter of Mohlya's did. They too are really Orthodox.

Understand that when enthusiastic Easternophile Byzantine Catholics say they are 'Orthodox in communion with Rome' they are not trying to insult you, Bob, nor are they playing a trick to siphon people away from the Orthodox Churches. They really believe Catholicism and Orthodoxy are compatible and pray for a complete corporate reunion, after which time they would rejoin you and no longer exist as separate jurisdictions. Although they once were (mis)used that way, their churches aren't 'Uniate' churches trying to replace you anymore.

Repeatedly calling Byzantine Catholics 'Roman Catholics' is rude and you know it.

http://oldworldrus.com

>Repeatedly calling Byzantine Catholics 'Roman Catholics' is rude and you know it.>

No, I don't know it because it makes absolutely no sense to me for them to profess their love, allegiance, obedience to the Pope of Rome. For them to proclaim that very Pope the 'Supreme Pontiff', "Successor of Peter', Vicar of Christ on Earth', Infallible Leader', 'Universal Bishop', etc. For them to acknowledge all the doctrine that is professed by the Roman Catholic Church (including the one's that separate them from Orthodoxy) and then be insulted to be identified as Roman Catholics. You are what you are, as you are what you eat, and in this case what you believe.
It's like me proclaiming my love for my slavic back ground and then being insulted if I'm referred to as a Carpatho - Rusyn American. How can one be insulted when they are being called a name that identifies them with those beliefs and allegiances they proclaim to love?
My family comes from a 'Byzantine Catholic' background. Only back then they identified themselves as 'Greek Catholics'. It seems the name changes every twenty plus years or so. I will begin to believe that the 'Byzantine Catholic Church' is a separate entity which is either autocephalous or automonous and just happens to be in communion with Rome (rather than under it's authority) when I start to see them ordaining married men to the clergy as a standard practice. They should be doing that right now instead of once again cwering in the corner waiting for Rome to react.

Bob,

>No, I don't know it because it makes absolutely no sense to me for them to profess their love, allegiance, obedience to the Pope of Rome.

Then why waste time, according to this POV, on a Catholic forum? Why not hang out on USTAV or the Indiana List exclusively instead?

>I will begin to believe that the 'Byzantine Catholic Church' is a separate entity which is either autocephalous or automonous and just happens to be in communion with Rome (rather than under its authority) when I start to see them ordaining married men to the clergy as a standard practice. They should be doing that right now instead of once again cowering in the corner waiting for Rome to react.

*Good* point. Things still are far from ideal.

http://oldworldrus.com

Are married clergy being ordained or aren't they? This is a bit frustrating. I've been told that the practice has now been approved and priests will very soon be ordained. One at least in the process now. I hope to be another. Some definitive statement would certainly be helpful here.

Dan Lauffer

Rusnak,

I couldn't have said it better.

God bless you!

The humble servant of Jesus Christ,
John Chizmar

Dear Truthseeker,
I must let you know that the Orthodox Church is not a branch nor believes in the Branch Theory that a desired wanna-be Uniate may believe in. The Orthodox Church is the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostlic Church in Christ. You are still an outsider that has not experienced or known Orthodoxy in her entire fullness. I think you have not studied Orthodoxy enough to know that Uniatism was founded in subverting the Orthodox Church. There are polemists here that will give a new meaning to being an Uniate as if it were originally founded on good ecumenical grounds. Do yourself a favor study Uniatism and the relation to the Orthodox Church. Not all Protestants are heretics just as not all Catholics are not heretics but they do come close. The appropriate word might be heterodox. Most Protestants don't deny the Trinity but have a skewed understanding of it. They do believe in Baptism and other essentials but lack a complete understanding of them from the view of the Orthodox Church. The understanding of grace in Catholicism and Protestantism is different and skewed according to the Orthodox. I can surely agree to many shared similiarities with Catholicism and Protestantism but they lack the fullness of the Orthodox Church. I always pray for the Roman Catholic Church and her Pope "to straighten up" and it does me no good to be angry. I tend to normally point out the errors that keep us from communion and what I have stated are valid points that the Byzantine Catholics know what I am talking about with the exception of their more recent converts. How we live out our theosis cannot be separated from the Orthodox teachings. Perhaps this is the opposite within Catholicism and Protestantism as you correctly stated in your post. I don't know if you even know what is theosis as well as what is Orthodoxy. This is entirely up to you to know and to seek. Whatever I say on this forum is to make you alert to the realities we live in. It is to make you aware that there are differences that you have never known before. It is to stir your soul and to acknowledge right from wrong. For me, my decision to be Orthodox was a conscious decision based on what the Orthodox Church has been saying from the beginning of Pentecost. Unfortunately, many naive Christians believe that Rome has a monopoly on St. Peter and speak with such an authority on behalf of St. Peter as if he alone is Christ! Finally, I can sense you have become intolerent of me and I am glad you are not the moderator. As you can see I am still here. To you what may seem slanderous is in fact the opposite. As the prophet of Islam would say, "I am only a messenger." Take this for what it is worth that is if you think it is worth anything.
So, have you been proclaimed a catechumen yet in the Byzantine Church? I think you may be beginning your journey East which will entail many rough roads ahead of you. I pray God to lead you to the straight and narrow path.