Rusnak,
Anyone who believes that "Catholicism and Orthodoxy are compatible" are but the Uniates such as yourself. This is the greatest lie ever told and must cease. There have always been jurisdictions since Pentecost although never perfect. However, for one jurisdiction such as Rome to step out of her bounds and intrude in another jurisdiction is a violation of canon laws. The Uniate Churches are under the jurisdiction of Rome and are not autocephaleous nor autonomous. I really don't blame anyone for calling you a Roman Catholic in an Eastern outfit. It is not rude because you live and abide under Rome. Rome is your master even though she has allowed the Uniate Church her freedom of liturgical expressions. Furthermore, everyone is entitled to post their "POV' here even if you cant stand us Orthodox hardliners. Deal with it in good spirits. Some of us chose to be here in this forum to set the record straight because you are not doing a splendid job of revealing the pseudo-union with Rome or ridding of the heresies built within Catholicism. The excuses of the Uniate basically cover the shame and lies of Catholicism. Since you happen to be in the inside of Catholicism and consider yourself to be a supposed "Orthodox" what are you doing to rid of Papal Infallibility, Supremacy, Filioque, Immaculate Conception, Indulgences, Purgatory, created grace, original guilt, just war, Assumption, Uniatism, Latinization, etc?

Dear Robert,
The Unia happened during a time when the spiritual state of Ukraine/Belarus was quite low. Bishops were being appointed by princes and many had no real vocation. Lawlessness abounded, and the Patriarchate of Constantinople did not do anything, despite numerous requests for help from bishops, clergy, and laity in these areas. It is written that theological studies were inadequate as well. The L'vov Brotherhood of the Dormition of the Theotokos wrote the following to Patriarch Jeremiah of Constantinople: "The people speak in one voice-If we do not rectify the lawlessness in our Church, then we shall ultimately disperse, subject ourselves to Roman discipline, and live peacefully and without worries". The hierarchs of the Kievan Church saw the salvation of the Church in communion with Rome. They compiled the "33 Articles pertaining to the Union with the Roman Church", which defined the conditions of this proposed union. In June 1595 these articles were signed by Metropolitan Mikhail Ragoza (Mikhaylo Rahoza) and Bishops Ipatiy Potiy and Kyrill Terletskiy (Kyrylo Terletsky) together with nine other bishops of the Kievan Metropolitan See and Archimandrite Ioann (Yon). In this document the bishops stressed their loyalty to the Ruthenian nation, its language, its traditions, and its ecclesiastical rite. According to these Articles, the church services were to remain unchanged and the hierarchs were to be of Ruthenian nationality and Greek rite. As for the filioque, the bishops distincly stated that they adhere to "all that we fid transmitted in the Gospel and the writings of the Holy Fathers of the Greek Faith, i.e., that the Holy Spirit does not have two sources nor a two-foold genesis, but emanates from the Father through the Son (Article 1).
Robert, I am not a member of the Ruthenian rite myself, but am rather of the Russian rite, and consider myself Orthodox in Communion with Rome regardless to whatever you think, say, or do. I know a lot about Orthodoxy, as my aunt is Serbian Orthodox and I have been studying Orthodox spirituality, history, and tradition for over four years. I know all about Orthodoxy and I know that I am well within my boundaries to call myself Orthodox in Communion with Rome. I do, however, believe in the pope as visible head of the church on earth (and Christ as the one and only true head of the church), but do not believe in his infallibility, as no true human is infallible. I believe in Orthodoxy and in Catholicism. We have the right belief and have right-believing hierarchs, plus we are in union with the One Holy Catholic and Apotolic Church of Jesus Christ. Condemn us if you will, but you will never defeat us and we will never apostacize from our Holy Faith. Not now, not ever, and maybe you know that we Russian Greek-Catholics have kept the fulness of the Orthodox tradition, even in regards to the Julian calendar and Orthodox paschalion. We are so-called "Old Calendarists" while many Orthodox hate other Orthodox for being new calendarists, we are in theory closer to them then those within their own church! May God grant you a pleasant day and may He be with you.

In Christ,
Feodosij, rab' Bozhij.

P.S. I don't need to become Orthodox because I already am

Feodosij, rab' Bozhij.

"Gospodi Isuse Christe, syne Bozhij, pomiluj mja, greshnago!"
(The Jesus Prayer in Church Slavonic according to the Old Rite of the Russian Church)

>>>Anyone who believes that "Catholicism and Orthodoxy are compatible" are but the Uniates such as
yourself.<<<

Actually, Mr. Sweiss, last time I checked, Rusnak was a member in good standing of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia, the Church of the Holy Synod. Orthodox of the Orthodox, as they like to advertise themselves. Finished calumnating everyone yet?

>Dear Robert,
>The Unia happened during a time when the spiritual state of Ukraine/Belarus was >quite low. Bishops were being appointed by princes and many had no real vocation. >Lawlessness abounded, and the Patriarchate of Constantinople did not do anything, >despite numerous requests for help from bishops, clergy, and laity in these areas. It >is written that theological studies were inadequate as well.

And did you ever stop to ask yourself the real reason such a situation existed? You kind of dismiss the fact that this situation came into existence when the Polish Roman Catholic nation took over those same areas. The areas were no longer governed by Orthodox but by Polish Roman Catholic overlords. The government was now Roman Catholic and it was that RC government that was now responsible for building and repairing the churches, financially supporting the Seminaries and theological schools, as well as having final say on who entered these schools, etc. Thats why the conditions you speak of came into existence (see article 17 of Brest/Litvosk listed below). But rather than accept that you seem to blame it all on the Orthodox Patriarch of Constantinople who was himself under Muslim Ottoman rule and far from free to react. What did you expect him to do? Send non existent troops to chase the RC's out of the area so Orthodox could once again be treated as first class citizens in their own land? Perhaps you should sit down and reread the 33 articles of the 'Union of Brest/Litovsk' and ask your self why your church was asking for such guarantees if they were not being peresecuted and treated like second class citizens by their Roman Catholic supressors. Articles like -

Article 17: Inasmuch as we have lost the possession of many ecclesiastical properties, some of which our predecessors alienated by rights other than the free administration of these goods during their personal lives, so that we find ourselves in such want and poverty that we cannot provide satisfactorily for the needs of the churches, and indeed we ourselves scarcely have the means of subsistence, we require that these properties be returned to our churches. If anyone has legitimately acquired the lifetime usufruct of any ecclesiastical benefice, let him be obliged to pay an annual rent to the Church, and upon his death let the benefice revert to the Church. Such a benefice shall not be granted to anyone without the consent of the bishop
and his chapter. Every benefice to which the Church presently has title is to be recorded in the Gospel Books, even if the Church does not exercise any control over some benefices. In that way they will at least belong indisputably to the Church. With this accomplished, the Church can then undertake to regain those benefices which have been alienated at an earlier time.

Article 12: So that our authority would be greater and we should govern our faithful with greater respect, we ask seats in the Senate of the King's Grace for the Metropolitain and the bishops. We ask this for many reasons for we have the same office and hierarchical dignity as the Roman Bishops.

Comment; Sure sounds to me that as Orthodox, they were exposed to taxation without representation.

THIS IS THE FREEDOM THEY WERE ACCORDED AS ORTHODOX UNDER ROMAN CATHOLIC DOMINATION:

Article 22: That the Romans should not forbid us to ring bells in our churches on Good Friday, both in the cities and everywhere else.
Article 23: That we should not be forbidden to visit the sick with the Most Holy Mysteries, publicly, with lights and vestments, according to our rubrics.
Article 24: That without any interference we might be free to hold processions, as many as are required, on holy days, according to our custom.
Article 25: That our Rus' monasteries and churches should not be changed into Roman Catholic churches. And if any Roman Catholic has damaged or destroyed one of our churches or monasteries, in his territory, he shall be obliged to repair it or build a new one for the exclusive use of the Rus' people.
Article 27: That we shall be free to have schools and seminaries in the Greek and Church-Slavonic languages in the localities where it is most convenient, AND THAT OUR PRINTING PRESSES SHALL BE FREE (of course under the supervision of the Metropolitain and bishops, so that no heresies be propagated and nothing be printed without the knowledge and consent of the Metropolitain and bishops).

You imply that the Patriarch of Constantinople was indifferent to the pleas for help. If that is true, then why the need for the followin article to be guaranteed? Why would be it necessary to close the borders so no Orthodox assistance could be acquired?

Article 32: We have heard that some have departed for Greece to procure ecclesiastical powers and return here to advise and influence the clergy and extend their jurisdiction over us. WE, THEREFORE, REQUEST THE KINGS GRACE TO ORDER PRECAUTIONS TO BE TAKEN ON THE STATE BORDERS SO THAT ANYONE BEARING SUCH JURISDICTIONS AND EXCOMMUNICATIONS BE BARRED FROM ENTERING THE KINGDOM. Otherwise, grave misunderstandings could arise between the pastors and the flocks of the Church.

Comment; What do you think the last sentence implies? Could it be that they mean the flocks would then become aware they had been sold down the river and were no longer Orthodox?

Could the Bishops who signed the agreement have left a little message in Article 13?

Article 13: And if in time the Lord shall grant that the rest of the brethren of our people and of the Greek Religion shall come to this same holy unity, it shall not be held against us or begrudged to us that we have preceded them in this unity, FOR WE HAVE TO DO THIS FOR DEFINITE, SERIOUS REASONS FOR HARMONY IN THE CHRISTIAN REPUBLIC [POLAND] TO AVOID FURTHER CONFUSION AND DISCORD.

Comment: Note the land was now considered part of Poland.

Dear Robert and Robert,

Your historical observations are interesting. I guess that your solution is that the smallest group in Christianity should be the only group. Maybe you are correct. Who can tell? If you can get all of Christianity to agree to your conclusions more power to you.

I'm not convinced that you can do this nor even if you could you would be correctly representing truth or the will of God.

So, keep talking if you wish. You may convince us and you may not.

It does seem to me that while protestantism is a drifting ship in a sea of heresy the same cannot be said for Catholicism. One day we will all be one. One day we will all be the Church that Christ intended. It seems to me that 1054 represents a break that hinders that conclusion. Those who are working toward union are much closer to the truth than those who are working toward continued division. So I am "uniate today, uniate tomorrow" and if God is willing "uniate forever."

Dan Lauffer

PS At least George C. Wallace had a good rhetorical form.

StuartK,
I have read some of Rusnak's previous posts that have indicated he is a Uniate. Maybe Rusnak can tell us what his affiliations are and what he is doing here.

Theodosy,
Again, you only wish you were Orthodox. If you are Orthodox then deny your allegiance to the Pope. Maybe you are orthodox with a small letter 'o' which in fact many Protestants refer to themselves.

Dan Lauffer,
You said "while Protestantism is a drifting ship in the sea of heresy the same cannot be said for Catholicsim" to which is not entirely true. Catholicsim and Protestantism are opposite sides of the same coin. Just about every Protestant hiearch opperates as a papacy in their own right and they have thier popes, bishops and etc. Protestantism learned and adapted this from Catholicism. We cannot all be one until you confess the Orthodox Church and end the pseudo-union with Rome. The only people who claim to be working towards a union are those who are causing division such as the Uniates. Uniatism will have to cease of its operations one day and return to Orthodoxy.

Dear Dan:

You write -

>Your historical observations are interesting.>

Not only interesting but factual and true as well. The articles speak for themselves.

> I guess that your solution is that the smallest group in Christianity should be the only group.>

Not sure what you mean by the smallest group. If you are referring to Orthodoxy then it is not the smallest group. Orthodoxy comes in second to the RCC. That is unless you lump all of the 23,000+ Protestant denominations as a single church (which it is not).
Besides, what does size have to do with truth? There have been plenty of times throughout church history where the heretics were in the majority until the Holy Spirit straightened things out.

>StuartK,
>I have read some of Rusnak's previous posts >that have indicated he is a Uniate. Maybe
>Rusnak can tell us what his affiliations are >and what he is doing here.

Once again, my Byzantine Catholic friend StuartK (whom I have learned to both admire and respect) is stating the truth.

Rusnak is currently in a ROCOR (Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia) parish. Prior to that he was a Byzantine Catholic and I think before that he attended a Latin Rite Roman Catholic Church.
Even though he has now completed his journey towards Orthodoxy he still has a respect for his past affiliations. Even though we come to odds regaring certain issues, I both admire and respect him for that love and respect he continues to show towards his past. Shows good character in my book.

1. Rusnak (the original) is a member of the Orthodox Church. I believe he used to be an Eastern Catholic like you, Robert Sweiss, but obviously in joining the Orthodox Church he did not take with him a set of anti-catholic baggage that you tout as being “Orthodox”. Rusnak can speak for himself, but I can say, for one, that I have always found him to be very balanced in his views and respectful in dialogue, something that you could learn a lot from, in my opinion, Robert.

2. Robert, your incessant efforts to proselytize here are shameful. It is certainly true that the tone you take in your postings will convince noone of the truth of the substance you write, for one thing. For another, your views of the Latin Church are based on an ill-founded, ill-educatd view of what that Church actually teaches. Unlike some Byzantine Catholics, I believe that reasoned critique of some things in the Latin Church, conducted charitably, is a good thing, provided that it proceeds from an understanding of what the Latin Church teaches, not an inaccurate stereotype of what it teaches. You clearly have no real understanding about what the Latin Church teaches, in fact about these things, which is why your posts are so ludicrously ill-informed. Again, you would be well-advised to take a page from Rusnak’s book here – his critiques are always reasoned and based on a thorough understanding, rather than a facile stereotype. But, then again, stereotypes ae easier to discuss than the real substance, because that is more complicated. Are you up to that, Robert? I doubt it.

3. We can all thank God that there are many in the Orthodox Church who do not think like Robert Sweiss. Regretfully, many in his jurisdiction (but certainly not all) think the way he does because of the disproportionately large concentration of converts there – gung-hos with little perspective on things, frankly, and whose ‘knowledge’ is often based on polemical books that are full of inaccurate stereotypes and devoid of any real analysis. Thankfully, however, there are many Orthodox Christians who, while remaining steadfast in the Orthodox beliefs (a good thing, too!!), are more open and informed about these issues and can discuss them intelligently. I sometimes wonder what conferences like Orientale Lumen would be like if the Orthodox participants were like Robert Sweiss – thankfully that is not the case.

4. Unity can only happen through love. Thankfully, there are many Orthodox who are serious about unity, and who realize that this can only take place in the context of a dialogue of love. Without love, we will surely convince noone of anything and will, in fact, only become hardened ourselves – what a pity, spiritually.

In Christ,

Brendan

XPNCTOC BOCKPECE!

Thanks, John, Stuart, Feodosij, Bob Tallick and Brendan. What you wrote means a lot to me. Stuart, Bob and Brendan are right about my past and present jurisdictions.

By the way, my girlfriend is a born Ruthenian Catholic and turned to the Internet for more info when, as an adult, she learned of her church's Orthodox heritage. Sadly, the anti-Catholic, including anti-'Uniate', writings on the 'Net have so deeply hurt her that now she is actually afraid to set foot in an Orthodox church.

http://oldworldrus.com

Rusnak,

Sorry to hear that about your girl friend. Please encourage her to visit Orthodox churches and pray with them. There is so much to learn in both churches and Christ will be with her in either. I love the fellowship of the Orthodox. They are zealous Christians and it shows in their expression of faith. A very heartening experience in this secular world.

The humble servant of Jesus Christ,
John Chizmar

Christ is Risen! Christos Anesti! Unity or union? "Nothing worth doing is completed in our lifetime;therefore,we must be saved by hope."-Reinhold Niebuhr Had an interesting time reading various Papal documents on the Unia. Started out enthusiastic; ended disappointed. The historical reality is:Eastern-rite Catholics have definitely been "back-benchers" in the eyes of the Vatican.Hopefully, that will change with a new generation of more truly "catholic" leaders.
Have a request: Where can I find one or two good Chalcedonian Orthodox forums that are as active or almost as active as this one. I mean:Russian Orthodox, Greek, Romanian,etc. Does anyone know if the Alexandrian Patriarchate has a forum? Thanks.

Brendan,
I was never really an Eastern Catholic even though both my parents were married in a Greek Catholic Church. I was baptized as an Orthodox but brought up thinking Roman Catholic. What a mess! At this time I can care less about your views of me. You need to acknowledge the truths in as far as I have stated. My views of the misguided church of the Latins and Uniates needs major repairs. My challenge to you since you have made the claim that my views are "ill-founded, ill-educated" I ask you to prove it. The burden of proof is on you. Demonstrate from Holy Tradition that Papal Infallibility, Suprermacy, created grace, Augustian original guilt, Immaculate Conception, Assumption, filioque, baptismal sprinkling, Paschal celebration, etc are absolutely true without contradicting the Byzantine Catholic Church? I believe that your supposed accusations about my views are based upon your ignorance and your way of fending me off. Why don't you accept my above challenge rather than presenting you critic of me? Do you know how to focus on the topic or do you experience tunnel vision from time to time in order to evade the issues at hand? Truth hurts when you do not admit it. It is unfortunate for a Uniate such as yourself to be in communion with the Latin Church. If you really want communion then why don't you correct the Latins and set them straight. I have heard enough lies and heresies in regards to the two having valid traditions. Show your love by ridding of what I have stated or remain a prisoner to lies. You know that the Father of all lies is but Satan and you have the audacity to be in communion with Rome who is still in error. If your really love the Papacy and her Pope then correct and save them from their errors. Do you have the courage to do so? I bet you don't even care. I bet you don't have the courage. I am even willing to bet that you have accepted Catholicism by commingeling her teaching with her Eastern rites beliefs. The two are not one but contradictory. How some of you Uniates cover up this dichotomy is a huge sham and in fear of Rome retaliating. My last words to you, prove me wrong on my views of the Latin Church and on Catholicism. Take up the challenge since you accused me of having an "il-founded, il-educated" view of Catholicism. I await your response.

Laudetur Jesus Christus!
Dear Robert Sweiss,
Your last post amazed me extremly. Like a tricky lawyer you demand Brendan that he will supply evidences for his opinions. But these opinions are about your charges against catholics of various traditions, you launched previously (and of course you still do). Then the burden of proof is on you.
You charge us of defying Holy Tradition. We pledge NOT GUILTY. Please show evidences for the Jury that we are. Up until now you costantly repeat accusation adding new ones from time to time but I saw not the litllest traces of evidence.
piotr c