As a Byzantine Catholic I consider myself Orthodox in communion with the Holy Father and pray for the day that all Christians are united under the Vicar of Christ. I love to visit Orthodox churches, pray and learn about our faith. So much of our heritage, theology, art, ect., is recorded and compiled by our Orthodox bretheren. But the problem I have with the Orthodox is that they seem more intent on admonishing Catholics than on admonishing sinners.

Everytime I come in contact with Orthodox clergy and monastics, they seem intent on converting me to their faith and barraging me with divisive rhetoric about the Catholic Church. They fail to realize that I'm already on their side. I believe the Orthodox have a valid profession of faith and a proper expression of worship.

The Orthodox have a public relations problem. They are too exclusionary. while it is good to carry on the traditions brought over from their countries of origin, alot of them still practice their liturgies in those languages. Not only alienating outsiders but their very own youth as well.

The Orthodox not only have problems with their Catholic counterparts but also have feuds with other Orthodox as well. Even divisions between Orthodox of the same country of origin!

The Catholic Church has its problems, but I believe it is truly universal. I see people of all races even in the more ethnic Eastern Catholic Churches.

Its time to stop the divisive bickering and finger pointing, and to unite this Church of Christ. Shun the demons of nationalistic pride and build one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.

I fear that I won't live to see it but I pray for God to work this miracle soon.

The humble servant of Jesus Christ,
John Chizmar

John,

My prayer is the same as yours. If we don't see it in our life times it is still a worthy goal toward which to work.

I have been so warmly greeted already my my Byzantine Catholic Church that I'm sorry to note that there are so many parishes that still insist that the traditions of the "old country" somehow supersede the Gospel admonition to make disciples.

My parish is the Church of the Annunciation in Homer Township in the Southwestern suburbs of Chicago. We occasionally use Slovanic and Latin but 90% of the liturgy is in English. I plan to learn the languages out of love for my new brothers and sisters but I am so thankful that the majority of the liturgy is not in the European tongues. We simply would not have been able to join if they had been.

Dan Lauffer

Dear Dan,

Christ is Risen!

(or, as many of us say, Christos Voskres!)

I am so glad to hear that you have been warmly welcomed in your parish community. However, I hope that you don't believe that you are being welcomed "in spite of your non-'ethnic' background."

I am also curious to know where these "so many parishes" are you have encountered that put ethnic "old country" traditions ahead of the Gospel. I am fairly well-traveled throughout Byzantine Christendom as it exists in the northeast USA, and even in parishes which don't use a word of English, there was never any confusion on my part whether it was a Temple of the Living God or an ethnic club. If there are individuals in them who really believe (or - let's cut them some slack, shall we? - merely act) otherwise, then that's one sin among many which we human beings commit.

Would you elaborate on the instances in your parish in which the Latin language is used? As far as I know, there is no reason for a Ruthenian church anywhere in the world to ever use Latin, *except* (the one exception) as one of the languages of the Holy Gospel reading at the Paschal Divine Liturgy.

Thank you, and God be with you.

[This message has been edited by RichC (edited 05-02-2000).]

Rich,

It was the Paschal reading in which Latin is used. My reference to Ethnic enclave was in response to John's post. I have only known one Byzantine Catholic parish, the one we are joining.

Dan Lauffer

Rich

Don't be confused. I am admonishing the ethnic Orthodox Churches for their use of Old World languages. Not the Byzantine Catholics. The Byzantine Catholic use of English in liturgies in America is universal and wide spread. The number of non-ethnic converts is heartening and will continue to grow. It is the Orthodox who need to get their act together. To admonish sinners and to evangalize universally.

The humble servant of Jesus Christ,
John Chizmar

Dear John Chizmar,
You are no longer considered Orthodox and are not privileged to even use the name Orthodox in reference to the false communion with Rome. Catholicism is a distortion of Holy Tradition and has violated Ecumenical teachings and cannons. Catholicism claims to accept the Seven Ecumenical Councils but practices otherwise. Only the Orthodox Church can be properly referred to as the Church of the Seven Ecumenical Councils in belief and practice. You should truly consider conversion to Orthodoxy. Uniatism is built on falsehood and has targeted the Orthodox Church when in essence they should of focused their energies in correcting the lies of Catholicism. Why do you also suffer from tunnel vision when it comes to Orthodoxy? Don't you know about the divisions in Catholicism and about her splinter groups? Why don't you bother explaining the feuding that happens with these splinter groups or even better yet the problems of American Catholicism versus Rome? What about the immigrants that came to America with their ethnic baggages and feuds between Germans, Italians, Irish, Spanish, etc? What about the oppressive Latinizations that have occurred and keeping reoccurring over time on you Uniates? Since you believe the Orthodox are exclusionary then by deductive reasoning the Catholic Church is inclusionary. That is why it is okay to give the Eucharist to a person like Bill Clinton. Your ignorance about the Orthodox Church has lead you to believe that we alienate inquisitive outsiders. Then why is it that the Orthodox Church is the fastest growing Church in America? Maybe you had a bad experience with one of the Orthodox Churches but many of our converts still pursued Orthodoxy and were eventually allowed in. What the Orthodox believer has to say about Catholicism is universally believed as true. You don't want to accept the Orthodox view of Catholicism then you have to live with that denial. What you believe about Catholicism is quite narrow. You must truly believe that the Pope is the head of the Universal Church when it is really Christ. Wake up and smell the coffee.

Robert,

You wrote:

"Only the Orthodox Church can be properly referred to as the Church of the Seven Ecumenical Councils in belief and practice."

Hmm...does that mean that the Orthodox Church observes ALL of the canons of ALL of the seven councils you mentioned?

You also wrote:

"That is why it is okay to give the Eucharist to a person like Bill Clinton. Your ignorance about the Orthodox Church has lead you to believe that we alienate inquisitive outsiders."

Ummm...actually, it wasn't "okay" to give the Eucharist to Bill Clinton. That priest was in fact taken to task for his actions.

Also, your constant...incessant...obsessive...and many times misinformed tirades against the Catholic Church probably alienate more inquisitive folks from Orthodoxy, than any ethno-centrism.

So...who is ignorant of whom?

BTW, I spoke with my spiritual father re: the situation in Jordan. (He is a Melkite priest living in the US - but spent 12 years in the Middle East.) He confirmed your account of how many members of the Latin Church have acted towards the Orthodox in some of their "evangelization" tactics...as well as with the marriage thing. To me, this is a tragedy, and a terrible scandal. I can only hope and pray for healing between our two Churches for all of the wrongs that we have committed against each other.

And by the way, I prefer Folgers for my coffee...especially at 2:00am.



Peace,

Gordo, sfo

[This message has been edited by Dozier (edited 05-03-2000).]

Friends,

I'm beginning to feel sorry for Robert. He seems to have a need to try to carry the weight, and to him it seems to be a dreadful burden, of the whole of Christianity. Notice how he keeps using the red scowling face on his posts.

Too bad Jesus did not understand Christianity the way Robert does. Just imagine, he could have had hyper tension and a grumping disposition as well.

Dan Lauffer

Unbelievable!

Dear Robert,

First you say that we Byzantine Catholics have no right to call ourselves Orthodox.

Immediately thereafter you claim that our communion with Rome is a "false communion."

Well, you can't have it both ways -- either we are not Orthodox and are just Roman Catholics pretending to be Eastern, and our communion is perfect (we are they and they are us, you can't be more in communion than that), or we are Orthodox who are in a false communion with Rome.

In your world of absolutes, there is no possibility of being somewhere in the middle.

And I agree with John, your kind of "Orthodoxy" I don't need. The Orthodoxy of the Church of the Seven Ecumenical Councils, yes, but the Orthodoxy which glories in telling others (even other Orthodox) how wrong they are? No thanks!

"By their fruits you will know them."

"A new commandment I give to you, love one another as I have loved you."

"See how they love one another!"

Christ is Risen!

"I tell you, that is why her many sins are forgiven--because of her great love. Little is forgiven the one whose love is small." Luke 7:47

Joe Prokopchak
archsinner

To Dozier,
What I have stated is not "misinformed tirades against the Catholic Church" but the facts as they are. For someone to make the above-statement is really acting defensive and have no better ways of dealing with the facts. One day you will have your Folgers coffee and become Orthodox. By the way it is good of you to have verified the Latin "evangelization tactics" upon the Orthodox with your spiritual Father. Has he ever explained the creation of uniatism in relation to the Orthodox Church?

Dan Lauffer,
I don't need sympathy from a uniate but rather answer the questions as I have stated. Diversion tactics are the games you uniates play.

RichC,
Orthodoxy does not accept or believe in Catholicism. Therefore, you simply are not and cannot be Orthodox. Abandon Catholicism and come to the Orthodox Church in order to be chrismated. Continuing to believe the lies that you are Orthodox in communion with Rome will affect your very own salvation. Better yet, why don't you ask any Orthodox bishop if he believes you are an Orthodox? He might either tell you that you are an apostate, a wanna-be-Orthodox, or simply NOT.

Somebody get me a beer.

Yosko Prokopchak
Hospodi Pomiluj !!

Geez, I haven't asked any bishops lately, but a few years ago I was sititng with the Greek Orthodox priest's wife, chatting after a wedding. (The Greeks in town sometimes lower their standards enough for this Uniate scum to sing their weddings.) We were kidding about "us" and "them." She said "the Roman Catholics are "them," but you're "us."

It ain't theological, but it made me smile.

BTW, y'all remember the old one about St. Peter taking the new arrivals on a tour of Heaven? They got to a certain place, and St. Pete told everyone to fly very quietly past this one area. Someone in the back asked why, and he replied "Oh, that's the ROCOR neighborhood. They think they're the only ones up here."

Cheers,

Sharon

Sharon Mech, SFO
Cantor & sinner
sharon@cmhc.com

Can you say, "Piling on"?

Robert is far less strident than many Latin Catholics on Catholic forums I have seen. Strictly speaking both Robert and many Catholic or Orthodox "hard-liners" are canonically correct in declaring the other side "wrong" on many matters of discussion here. Viewing the placing of these "errors" before the theoretically offending party as an act of warning charity is just as valid from both sides. The degree to which it generates productive discussion can be debated, but I won't question his sincerity or his intent or his dedication to our Lord.

They serve a good purpose to remind us, that in an effort to reach common ground that we not forget or abandon important things. We may not like what they have to say, but that doesn't mean important things are not being stated.

Depending on how you wish to see it, being in communion with the Roman Patriarch means serving at the good pleasure of the Roman Pontiff. That is the cost/benefit of being in communion with Rome. It is not how you choose to see Rome that matters to clerical practice most, it is how Rome views its authority that matters most. Any license granted towards recovering your original traditions can be taken away unless Rome has so stated definitively and concretely it will not take them away.

Whether that's good or bad depends on your POV, but that's the way it is for now.

>>>Dan Lauffer,
I don't need sympathy from a uniate but rather answer the questions as I have stated. Diversion tactics are the games you uniates play.<<<
--------------------------------------------

Dear Servant of God, Dan

Christ is Risen !

You poor boy, Dan. You haven't been received into the Byzantine Catholic Church yet and already you are being accused of being a uniate and playing uniate games.

Welcome to the Metropolia of Pittsburgh !!

Caution !! Warning !!

You are about to enter a "Bridge Over Troubled Waters" Proceed with caution !! On one side you will find the Latin Church. Most of it's faithful don't understand us and some of those who do would gladly buy us a First Class one way ticket back to our jusisdictional See of origen.

On the other side you will find the Orthodox Church. With it's faithful we share the same spritual DNA. But we are chastised by some because of decisions our forefathers made hundreds of years ago. We are still in love with our first love, but like our sometimes teenage loves in high school we are looked upon as being weird and not cool. Sometimes this love is not returned to us.

But be of good cheer my brother Dan. You will be welcomed with open arms by your brothers and sisters in the Byzantine Catholic Church. And with them you will stand on this bridge over troubled waters wearing a cloak of suffering. Be not afraid of this cloak for it has an inner lineing of love. And it is this inner lineing that will protect you in your suffering from what you will endure from both sides of the bridge.

Joe Prokopchak
St. Nicholas Byzantine Catholic Church
Archeparchy of Pittsburgh

Servants of Christ: Some of us are beginning to sound not like Catholics or Orthodox but like protestants i.e.,forgetting that Christianity was not born "sans" a cultural context. Christianity was "birthed" in a Aramean/Jewish Semitic world and quickly-very quickly- spread into the Roman/Hellenic world. Our Holy Catholic Faith that we hold in common as Catholics and Orthodox is the product...IS THE PRODUCT ...of both the East and the West from the very beginning. I might not like that..you might not like that...but this is REALITY!
All of us are acting like idiots. Let's put this gossip-column tabloid behind us and move on. I also visit an Anglican forum and they, even though they would be considered heretics and schismatics, are much better Christians than we are-at least within the boundaries of their message board. And we have the true faith? Have any of us stopped a baby from being butchered today? Have any of us taken the Good News to a person infected with AIDS... today? This is the muck that forces people out of the priesthood and out of the monastic life. Not loneliness-you learn to adjust-but this idiocy is just overwhelming. You ask yourself:"Why am I here?" "What good am I doing?" This is shameful...shameful. All of us are to blame for going on in this mode. We are to be known by our fruit...not by our "fruit cake." And who can stand that?(Don't answer!)
What would Father John of Kronstadt think of this lunacy? Bishop/Martyr Theodore Rhomza? Mother Teresa-the Albanian-product of the East and West? And WWJD? But we won't! We prefer to play the "knock this chip off my shoulder game." Children will be children.

[This message has been edited by Mar Thoma (edited 05-03-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Mar Thoma (edited 05-03-2000).]

Brothers Joe and Mar Thoma,

Thank you both for your words of wisdom. I knew at least in principle what I was walking into. Even Father Tom Loya, my pastor, seemed astonished that I would willingly take on such a vocation. However, I sincerely believe that the cause of Christ means suffering and eventual victory. I also believe "every word that proceeds" from His mouth. If our blessed Lord whose last wish and prayer was for Unity then I gladly take upon myself that same vocation.

BTW No matter what happens to me in the Byzantine Catholic Church it can't come close to the chaos and bitterness I found in protestantism.

Dan Lauffer

Mr. Sweiss --

I shall refrain from the appellation "Brother" inasmuch as from the tone of your posts it is obvious that anyone not associated with your particular brand of Orthodoxy is not a real Christian and is in deep weeds with God. I doubt in your heart of hearts you would really consider me a brother in Christ unless I joined your branch of Orthodoxy.

You know that I am still pondering where to finalize my journey home to the catholic faith of the Early Fathers. I wish to make one thing crystal clear. Your strident polemics and name-calling continue to make Orthodoxy one of the less attractive options as I head around the fourth turn and come galloping home.

Funny to think that Fr. David Beldon of HOCNA would make the same accusations of your branch of Orthodoxy that you make of the Byzantine and Catholic faiths. If this wasn't so terribly sad it would indeed be funny.

The real heretics are the Protestants, or haven't you figured that out yet? They do not have a real Eucharist, they don't have a clue as to what the Scriptures and the Church has taught about salvation for 2000 years. Your "brethren" in the Byzantine and Catholic rites are at least validly ordained, believe in the Real Presence, honor the Blessed Theotokos and the saints in glory, and follow the greater majority of that which the Early Fathers taught. Yet you excoriate them every chance you get for what appear to me as an outside to be the most minor of differences. When they deny the Trinity, the Real Presence, or start teaching some form of heretical Calvinist thought, then I will jump into the ship with you. Right now, it just looks real senseless to me.

Be honest, now. Do you EVER pray for the Catholic Church to straighten up, or are you so smug in your anger against her that all you can do is crow triumphantly over everyone else who is not Orthodox? Did you ever stop to consider that in Romans 2 and other passages, Christ says that He will judge us, not on the preciseness of our doctrines, but on how we lived out the love of Christ to others in lives of good works and faith in God?

Quite frankly, sir, your screed is getting rather tired. It is as annoying as listening to the banal stupidity that Evangelicals and Fundamentalists engage in rather than trying to discourse and learn from the Catholic faith. I applaud those who run this forum for not banning you, showing a higher degree of Christian charity than you seem to possess towards those with whom you disagree.

Defensor Fidei

You write:


> As a Byzantine Catholic I consider myself Orthodox in communion with the Holy Father and pray for the day that all Christians are united under the Vicar of Christ. I love to visit Orthodox churches, pray and learn about our faith. So much of our heritage, theology, art, ect., is recorded and compiled by our Orthodox bretheren. But the problem I have with the Orthodox is that they seem more intent on admonishing Catholics than on admonishing sinners.>

Reply: Talk about a paragraph of contradictions! Either you are an Orthodox Catholic or an Eastern Rite Roman Catholic. There is no such thing as an 'Orthodox in communion with Rome'. It is an oxymoron and an insult to Orthodoxy because it relegates Orthodoxy to a religion based purely on ritual, with doctrine as secondary in nature. Nothing can be further from the truth. Of course you can call yourself anything you want but that sure doesn't make it so.
It never ceases to amaze me when I read some of these statements. In one sentence so many of you will profess your loyaliy to Rome and allegience to the so called Vicar of Christ on earth. Then in the next sentence deny you're Roman Catholicity. And then in the next sentence proclaim your Orthodoxy. The same religion that your ancestors turned their backs on while they took all the beauty of the religion they were denouncing with them as they ran to Rome. And now they want to re-identify themselves as something they are not, something they rejected 400 years ago! Gimme a break!

The same argument you use against Byzantine Catholicism can be used against the Western-rite of Orthodoxy. Orthodoxy has its own "uniat" movement. Very small, it is true, but it does exist! The main fallacy within your argument is that the "Unia" is static. There have been many major changes within the Eastern-rite Churches since Vatican II-not as many as one would like-but the changes are there with a return to the Eastern Fathers and authentic practice. It is unrealistic to expect perfection. From the Italo-Greeks(who have never been out of union with Rome) to the Ukrainians, there is at least some change.

Robert,

The Byzantines never turned their backs on Orthodoxy. They mearly embraced the successor of St. Peter who was commanded by Christ to build His church.

Even you yourself would be unwelcome in certain Orthodox churches, depending on your particular Orthodox affiliation. But if you were to visit the Holy Resurrection Byzantine Catholic Monastery in Newberry Springs, California, you would find Catholics, Orthodox, and even Protestant Christians praying with the monks. Enjoying true Christian fellowship and learning what we can from each other. It is truly a Holy place.

My point is that we must put aside our animosity and antagonism. Trust in Christ's resurrection that we ourselves will be saved as well. Put on Christ, spread his good news, do his good work together.

Our crosses are to heavy to worry about what type of wood they are made of.

The humble servant of Jesus Christ,
John Chizmar

>The Byzantines never turned their backs on Orthodoxy. They merely embraced the successor of St. Peter who was commanded by Christ to build His church.>

And in doing so they ceased to be Orthodox. For, with the exception of the Filioque, they were required to accept all the dogma of the Roman Catholic Church from that point on. Including Purgatory, Papal Infallibility, Papal Supremecy, Immaculate Conception of Mary, etc. to name a few. Many of which have been added since the signing of Brest/Litovsk.
What it narrows down to is the question on whether you believe in all the dogma of the Roman Catholic Church or not. If you do, then you are nothing more than a Roman Catholic who still utilizes the ritual of your Orthodox ancestors. And, you certainly are not an "Orthodox in communion with Rome' as you claim.
If you do not believe in any or all of the above, then you are saying that you are knowingly and willingly under the authority of a Bishop you recognize as upholding doctrine that you yourself don't recognize and is therefore heretical.

>Even you yourself would be unwelcome in certain Orthodox churches, depending on your particular Orthodox affiliation.>

Providing that I am properly prepared, and have the proper requirements from my priest, I would be able to receive communion in any cannonical Orthodox Church in the world. Yes it's true I may be refused in some of the fringe jurisdictions claiming Orthodoxy but then again, you would also be refused in some of the fringe Roman Catholic groups. We have our ROCOR & HOCNA, etc. You guys also have your bogus Roman Catholic groups like Old Catholics, Polish National Catholics, Redemptorists, etc.

>But if you were to visit the Holy Resurrection Byzantine Catholic Monastery in Newberry Springs, California, you would find Catholics, Orthodox, and even Protestant Christians praying with the monks. Enjoying true Christian fellowship and learning what
we can from each other. It is truly a Holy place. >

I have no doubt that it is. And would have no problem visiting or praying there. Only difference is that I would be aware that it is a Roman Catholic monastery who utilizes the Eastern Rite but is ultimately under the authority of what you call the 'successor of St Peter' who resides in Rome. Rather than the other & first successor of St Peter who is still called the 'Patriarch of Antioch'.

>My point is that we must put aside our animosity and antagonism. Trust in Christ's resurrection that we ourselves will be saved as well. Put on Christ, spread his good news, do his good work together.>

Very true. But lets do it in an atmosphere of truth and honesty by identifying ourselves as who or what we are, rather than who or what we'd like to be.

Robert,

Here is the honest truth. I am a Byzantine Catholic. I believe that our allegiance to Christ is more important than our allegiance to structure that approximate the desires of Christ. Christ desires our unity. Therefore, I am joining a group that is honestly working toward it.

How's that for truthfulness.

Dan Lauffer

Robert,

Here is the honest truth. I am a Byzantine Catholic. I believe that our allegiance to Christ is
more important than our allegiance to structure that approximate the desires of Christ. Christ desires our unity. Therefore, I am joining a group that is honestly working toward it.
How's that for truthfulness.

Dan Lauffer

---------------------------------------------

Dan:

I have no problem with what you post and even respect it. I have no problem with you identifying yourself as a 'Byzantine Catholic'. Only problem I would have is if you deny you are part of the Roman Catholic Church or claim you are 'Orthodox in communion with Rome'.

The real issue here is, 'Do the postschism Roman definitions contradict Eastern Orthodox theology'? Serious Byzantine Catholics say no (while saying the Roman language may not necessarily apply in the Eastern theological framework they share with the Orthodox). As for the Orthodox, there has been no Orthodox ecumenical council since preschism times, therefore the highest authority in Orthodoxy never has proclaimed postschism Catholicism heretical. (And Catholicism never has called the Orthodox heretics. Basically on paper, Orthodoxy IS Catholicism circa 1000.) There are vocal Orthodox who do claim Catholics are in heresy but it is only their opinion - since it's an open question, they can hold such and be Orthodox. There are other Orthodox whose views largely mirror Rome's - like Peter of Mohlya's did. They too are really Orthodox.

Understand that when enthusiastic Easternophile Byzantine Catholics say they are 'Orthodox in communion with Rome' they are not trying to insult you, Bob, nor are they playing a trick to siphon people away from the Orthodox Churches. They really believe Catholicism and Orthodoxy are compatible and pray for a complete corporate reunion, after which time they would rejoin you and no longer exist as separate jurisdictions. Although they once were (mis)used that way, their churches aren't 'Uniate' churches trying to replace you anymore.

Repeatedly calling Byzantine Catholics 'Roman Catholics' is rude and you know it.

http://oldworldrus.com

>Repeatedly calling Byzantine Catholics 'Roman Catholics' is rude and you know it.>

No, I don't know it because it makes absolutely no sense to me for them to profess their love, allegiance, obedience to the Pope of Rome. For them to proclaim that very Pope the 'Supreme Pontiff', "Successor of Peter', Vicar of Christ on Earth', Infallible Leader', 'Universal Bishop', etc. For them to acknowledge all the doctrine that is professed by the Roman Catholic Church (including the one's that separate them from Orthodoxy) and then be insulted to be identified as Roman Catholics. You are what you are, as you are what you eat, and in this case what you believe.
It's like me proclaiming my love for my slavic back ground and then being insulted if I'm referred to as a Carpatho - Rusyn American. How can one be insulted when they are being called a name that identifies them with those beliefs and allegiances they proclaim to love?
My family comes from a 'Byzantine Catholic' background. Only back then they identified themselves as 'Greek Catholics'. It seems the name changes every twenty plus years or so. I will begin to believe that the 'Byzantine Catholic Church' is a separate entity which is either autocephalous or automonous and just happens to be in communion with Rome (rather than under it's authority) when I start to see them ordaining married men to the clergy as a standard practice. They should be doing that right now instead of once again cwering in the corner waiting for Rome to react.

Bob,

>No, I don't know it because it makes absolutely no sense to me for them to profess their love, allegiance, obedience to the Pope of Rome.

Then why waste time, according to this POV, on a Catholic forum? Why not hang out on USTAV or the Indiana List exclusively instead?

>I will begin to believe that the 'Byzantine Catholic Church' is a separate entity which is either autocephalous or automonous and just happens to be in communion with Rome (rather than under its authority) when I start to see them ordaining married men to the clergy as a standard practice. They should be doing that right now instead of once again cowering in the corner waiting for Rome to react.

*Good* point. Things still are far from ideal.

http://oldworldrus.com

Are married clergy being ordained or aren't they? This is a bit frustrating. I've been told that the practice has now been approved and priests will very soon be ordained. One at least in the process now. I hope to be another. Some definitive statement would certainly be helpful here.

Dan Lauffer

Rusnak,

I couldn't have said it better.

God bless you!

The humble servant of Jesus Christ,
John Chizmar

Dear Truthseeker,
I must let you know that the Orthodox Church is not a branch nor believes in the Branch Theory that a desired wanna-be Uniate may believe in. The Orthodox Church is the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostlic Church in Christ. You are still an outsider that has not experienced or known Orthodoxy in her entire fullness. I think you have not studied Orthodoxy enough to know that Uniatism was founded in subverting the Orthodox Church. There are polemists here that will give a new meaning to being an Uniate as if it were originally founded on good ecumenical grounds. Do yourself a favor study Uniatism and the relation to the Orthodox Church. Not all Protestants are heretics just as not all Catholics are not heretics but they do come close. The appropriate word might be heterodox. Most Protestants don't deny the Trinity but have a skewed understanding of it. They do believe in Baptism and other essentials but lack a complete understanding of them from the view of the Orthodox Church. The understanding of grace in Catholicism and Protestantism is different and skewed according to the Orthodox. I can surely agree to many shared similiarities with Catholicism and Protestantism but they lack the fullness of the Orthodox Church. I always pray for the Roman Catholic Church and her Pope "to straighten up" and it does me no good to be angry. I tend to normally point out the errors that keep us from communion and what I have stated are valid points that the Byzantine Catholics know what I am talking about with the exception of their more recent converts. How we live out our theosis cannot be separated from the Orthodox teachings. Perhaps this is the opposite within Catholicism and Protestantism as you correctly stated in your post. I don't know if you even know what is theosis as well as what is Orthodoxy. This is entirely up to you to know and to seek. Whatever I say on this forum is to make you alert to the realities we live in. It is to make you aware that there are differences that you have never known before. It is to stir your soul and to acknowledge right from wrong. For me, my decision to be Orthodox was a conscious decision based on what the Orthodox Church has been saying from the beginning of Pentecost. Unfortunately, many naive Christians believe that Rome has a monopoly on St. Peter and speak with such an authority on behalf of St. Peter as if he alone is Christ! Finally, I can sense you have become intolerent of me and I am glad you are not the moderator. As you can see I am still here. To you what may seem slanderous is in fact the opposite. As the prophet of Islam would say, "I am only a messenger." Take this for what it is worth that is if you think it is worth anything.
So, have you been proclaimed a catechumen yet in the Byzantine Church? I think you may be beginning your journey East which will entail many rough roads ahead of you. I pray God to lead you to the straight and narrow path.

Rusnak,
Anyone who believes that "Catholicism and Orthodoxy are compatible" are but the Uniates such as yourself. This is the greatest lie ever told and must cease. There have always been jurisdictions since Pentecost although never perfect. However, for one jurisdiction such as Rome to step out of her bounds and intrude in another jurisdiction is a violation of canon laws. The Uniate Churches are under the jurisdiction of Rome and are not autocephaleous nor autonomous. I really don't blame anyone for calling you a Roman Catholic in an Eastern outfit. It is not rude because you live and abide under Rome. Rome is your master even though she has allowed the Uniate Church her freedom of liturgical expressions. Furthermore, everyone is entitled to post their "POV' here even if you cant stand us Orthodox hardliners. Deal with it in good spirits. Some of us chose to be here in this forum to set the record straight because you are not doing a splendid job of revealing the pseudo-union with Rome or ridding of the heresies built within Catholicism. The excuses of the Uniate basically cover the shame and lies of Catholicism. Since you happen to be in the inside of Catholicism and consider yourself to be a supposed "Orthodox" what are you doing to rid of Papal Infallibility, Supremacy, Filioque, Immaculate Conception, Indulgences, Purgatory, created grace, original guilt, just war, Assumption, Uniatism, Latinization, etc?

Dear Robert,
The Unia happened during a time when the spiritual state of Ukraine/Belarus was quite low. Bishops were being appointed by princes and many had no real vocation. Lawlessness abounded, and the Patriarchate of Constantinople did not do anything, despite numerous requests for help from bishops, clergy, and laity in these areas. It is written that theological studies were inadequate as well. The L'vov Brotherhood of the Dormition of the Theotokos wrote the following to Patriarch Jeremiah of Constantinople: "The people speak in one voice-If we do not rectify the lawlessness in our Church, then we shall ultimately disperse, subject ourselves to Roman discipline, and live peacefully and without worries". The hierarchs of the Kievan Church saw the salvation of the Church in communion with Rome. They compiled the "33 Articles pertaining to the Union with the Roman Church", which defined the conditions of this proposed union. In June 1595 these articles were signed by Metropolitan Mikhail Ragoza (Mikhaylo Rahoza) and Bishops Ipatiy Potiy and Kyrill Terletskiy (Kyrylo Terletsky) together with nine other bishops of the Kievan Metropolitan See and Archimandrite Ioann (Yon). In this document the bishops stressed their loyalty to the Ruthenian nation, its language, its traditions, and its ecclesiastical rite. According to these Articles, the church services were to remain unchanged and the hierarchs were to be of Ruthenian nationality and Greek rite. As for the filioque, the bishops distincly stated that they adhere to "all that we fid transmitted in the Gospel and the writings of the Holy Fathers of the Greek Faith, i.e., that the Holy Spirit does not have two sources nor a two-foold genesis, but emanates from the Father through the Son (Article 1).
Robert, I am not a member of the Ruthenian rite myself, but am rather of the Russian rite, and consider myself Orthodox in Communion with Rome regardless to whatever you think, say, or do. I know a lot about Orthodoxy, as my aunt is Serbian Orthodox and I have been studying Orthodox spirituality, history, and tradition for over four years. I know all about Orthodoxy and I know that I am well within my boundaries to call myself Orthodox in Communion with Rome. I do, however, believe in the pope as visible head of the church on earth (and Christ as the one and only true head of the church), but do not believe in his infallibility, as no true human is infallible. I believe in Orthodoxy and in Catholicism. We have the right belief and have right-believing hierarchs, plus we are in union with the One Holy Catholic and Apotolic Church of Jesus Christ. Condemn us if you will, but you will never defeat us and we will never apostacize from our Holy Faith. Not now, not ever, and maybe you know that we Russian Greek-Catholics have kept the fulness of the Orthodox tradition, even in regards to the Julian calendar and Orthodox paschalion. We are so-called "Old Calendarists" while many Orthodox hate other Orthodox for being new calendarists, we are in theory closer to them then those within their own church! May God grant you a pleasant day and may He be with you.

In Christ,
Feodosij, rab' Bozhij.

P.S. I don't need to become Orthodox because I already am

Feodosij, rab' Bozhij.

"Gospodi Isuse Christe, syne Bozhij, pomiluj mja, greshnago!"
(The Jesus Prayer in Church Slavonic according to the Old Rite of the Russian Church)

>>>Anyone who believes that "Catholicism and Orthodoxy are compatible" are but the Uniates such as
yourself.<<<

Actually, Mr. Sweiss, last time I checked, Rusnak was a member in good standing of the Russian Orthodox Church Outside Russia, the Church of the Holy Synod. Orthodox of the Orthodox, as they like to advertise themselves. Finished calumnating everyone yet?

>Dear Robert,
>The Unia happened during a time when the spiritual state of Ukraine/Belarus was >quite low. Bishops were being appointed by princes and many had no real vocation. >Lawlessness abounded, and the Patriarchate of Constantinople did not do anything, >despite numerous requests for help from bishops, clergy, and laity in these areas. It >is written that theological studies were inadequate as well.

And did you ever stop to ask yourself the real reason such a situation existed? You kind of dismiss the fact that this situation came into existence when the Polish Roman Catholic nation took over those same areas. The areas were no longer governed by Orthodox but by Polish Roman Catholic overlords. The government was now Roman Catholic and it was that RC government that was now responsible for building and repairing the churches, financially supporting the Seminaries and theological schools, as well as having final say on who entered these schools, etc. Thats why the conditions you speak of came into existence (see article 17 of Brest/Litvosk listed below). But rather than accept that you seem to blame it all on the Orthodox Patriarch of Constantinople who was himself under Muslim Ottoman rule and far from free to react. What did you expect him to do? Send non existent troops to chase the RC's out of the area so Orthodox could once again be treated as first class citizens in their own land? Perhaps you should sit down and reread the 33 articles of the 'Union of Brest/Litovsk' and ask your self why your church was asking for such guarantees if they were not being peresecuted and treated like second class citizens by their Roman Catholic supressors. Articles like -

Article 17: Inasmuch as we have lost the possession of many ecclesiastical properties, some of which our predecessors alienated by rights other than the free administration of these goods during their personal lives, so that we find ourselves in such want and poverty that we cannot provide satisfactorily for the needs of the churches, and indeed we ourselves scarcely have the means of subsistence, we require that these properties be returned to our churches. If anyone has legitimately acquired the lifetime usufruct of any ecclesiastical benefice, let him be obliged to pay an annual rent to the Church, and upon his death let the benefice revert to the Church. Such a benefice shall not be granted to anyone without the consent of the bishop
and his chapter. Every benefice to which the Church presently has title is to be recorded in the Gospel Books, even if the Church does not exercise any control over some benefices. In that way they will at least belong indisputably to the Church. With this accomplished, the Church can then undertake to regain those benefices which have been alienated at an earlier time.

Article 12: So that our authority would be greater and we should govern our faithful with greater respect, we ask seats in the Senate of the King's Grace for the Metropolitain and the bishops. We ask this for many reasons for we have the same office and hierarchical dignity as the Roman Bishops.

Comment; Sure sounds to me that as Orthodox, they were exposed to taxation without representation.

THIS IS THE FREEDOM THEY WERE ACCORDED AS ORTHODOX UNDER ROMAN CATHOLIC DOMINATION:

Article 22: That the Romans should not forbid us to ring bells in our churches on Good Friday, both in the cities and everywhere else.
Article 23: That we should not be forbidden to visit the sick with the Most Holy Mysteries, publicly, with lights and vestments, according to our rubrics.
Article 24: That without any interference we might be free to hold processions, as many as are required, on holy days, according to our custom.
Article 25: That our Rus' monasteries and churches should not be changed into Roman Catholic churches. And if any Roman Catholic has damaged or destroyed one of our churches or monasteries, in his territory, he shall be obliged to repair it or build a new one for the exclusive use of the Rus' people.
Article 27: That we shall be free to have schools and seminaries in the Greek and Church-Slavonic languages in the localities where it is most convenient, AND THAT OUR PRINTING PRESSES SHALL BE FREE (of course under the supervision of the Metropolitain and bishops, so that no heresies be propagated and nothing be printed without the knowledge and consent of the Metropolitain and bishops).

You imply that the Patriarch of Constantinople was indifferent to the pleas for help. If that is true, then why the need for the followin article to be guaranteed? Why would be it necessary to close the borders so no Orthodox assistance could be acquired?

Article 32: We have heard that some have departed for Greece to procure ecclesiastical powers and return here to advise and influence the clergy and extend their jurisdiction over us. WE, THEREFORE, REQUEST THE KINGS GRACE TO ORDER PRECAUTIONS TO BE TAKEN ON THE STATE BORDERS SO THAT ANYONE BEARING SUCH JURISDICTIONS AND EXCOMMUNICATIONS BE BARRED FROM ENTERING THE KINGDOM. Otherwise, grave misunderstandings could arise between the pastors and the flocks of the Church.

Comment; What do you think the last sentence implies? Could it be that they mean the flocks would then become aware they had been sold down the river and were no longer Orthodox?

Could the Bishops who signed the agreement have left a little message in Article 13?

Article 13: And if in time the Lord shall grant that the rest of the brethren of our people and of the Greek Religion shall come to this same holy unity, it shall not be held against us or begrudged to us that we have preceded them in this unity, FOR WE HAVE TO DO THIS FOR DEFINITE, SERIOUS REASONS FOR HARMONY IN THE CHRISTIAN REPUBLIC [POLAND] TO AVOID FURTHER CONFUSION AND DISCORD.

Comment: Note the land was now considered part of Poland.

Dear Robert and Robert,

Your historical observations are interesting. I guess that your solution is that the smallest group in Christianity should be the only group. Maybe you are correct. Who can tell? If you can get all of Christianity to agree to your conclusions more power to you.

I'm not convinced that you can do this nor even if you could you would be correctly representing truth or the will of God.

So, keep talking if you wish. You may convince us and you may not.

It does seem to me that while protestantism is a drifting ship in a sea of heresy the same cannot be said for Catholicism. One day we will all be one. One day we will all be the Church that Christ intended. It seems to me that 1054 represents a break that hinders that conclusion. Those who are working toward union are much closer to the truth than those who are working toward continued division. So I am "uniate today, uniate tomorrow" and if God is willing "uniate forever."

Dan Lauffer

PS At least George C. Wallace had a good rhetorical form.

StuartK,
I have read some of Rusnak's previous posts that have indicated he is a Uniate. Maybe Rusnak can tell us what his affiliations are and what he is doing here.

Theodosy,
Again, you only wish you were Orthodox. If you are Orthodox then deny your allegiance to the Pope. Maybe you are orthodox with a small letter 'o' which in fact many Protestants refer to themselves.

Dan Lauffer,
You said "while Protestantism is a drifting ship in the sea of heresy the same cannot be said for Catholicsim" to which is not entirely true. Catholicsim and Protestantism are opposite sides of the same coin. Just about every Protestant hiearch opperates as a papacy in their own right and they have thier popes, bishops and etc. Protestantism learned and adapted this from Catholicism. We cannot all be one until you confess the Orthodox Church and end the pseudo-union with Rome. The only people who claim to be working towards a union are those who are causing division such as the Uniates. Uniatism will have to cease of its operations one day and return to Orthodoxy.

Dear Dan:

You write -

>Your historical observations are interesting.>

Not only interesting but factual and true as well. The articles speak for themselves.

> I guess that your solution is that the smallest group in Christianity should be the only group.>

Not sure what you mean by the smallest group. If you are referring to Orthodoxy then it is not the smallest group. Orthodoxy comes in second to the RCC. That is unless you lump all of the 23,000+ Protestant denominations as a single church (which it is not).
Besides, what does size have to do with truth? There have been plenty of times throughout church history where the heretics were in the majority until the Holy Spirit straightened things out.

>StuartK,
>I have read some of Rusnak's previous posts >that have indicated he is a Uniate. Maybe
>Rusnak can tell us what his affiliations are >and what he is doing here.

Once again, my Byzantine Catholic friend StuartK (whom I have learned to both admire and respect) is stating the truth.

Rusnak is currently in a ROCOR (Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia) parish. Prior to that he was a Byzantine Catholic and I think before that he attended a Latin Rite Roman Catholic Church.
Even though he has now completed his journey towards Orthodoxy he still has a respect for his past affiliations. Even though we come to odds regaring certain issues, I both admire and respect him for that love and respect he continues to show towards his past. Shows good character in my book.

1. Rusnak (the original) is a member of the Orthodox Church. I believe he used to be an Eastern Catholic like you, Robert Sweiss, but obviously in joining the Orthodox Church he did not take with him a set of anti-catholic baggage that you tout as being “Orthodox”. Rusnak can speak for himself, but I can say, for one, that I have always found him to be very balanced in his views and respectful in dialogue, something that you could learn a lot from, in my opinion, Robert.

2. Robert, your incessant efforts to proselytize here are shameful. It is certainly true that the tone you take in your postings will convince noone of the truth of the substance you write, for one thing. For another, your views of the Latin Church are based on an ill-founded, ill-educatd view of what that Church actually teaches. Unlike some Byzantine Catholics, I believe that reasoned critique of some things in the Latin Church, conducted charitably, is a good thing, provided that it proceeds from an understanding of what the Latin Church teaches, not an inaccurate stereotype of what it teaches. You clearly have no real understanding about what the Latin Church teaches, in fact about these things, which is why your posts are so ludicrously ill-informed. Again, you would be well-advised to take a page from Rusnak’s book here – his critiques are always reasoned and based on a thorough understanding, rather than a facile stereotype. But, then again, stereotypes ae easier to discuss than the real substance, because that is more complicated. Are you up to that, Robert? I doubt it.

3. We can all thank God that there are many in the Orthodox Church who do not think like Robert Sweiss. Regretfully, many in his jurisdiction (but certainly not all) think the way he does because of the disproportionately large concentration of converts there – gung-hos with little perspective on things, frankly, and whose ‘knowledge’ is often based on polemical books that are full of inaccurate stereotypes and devoid of any real analysis. Thankfully, however, there are many Orthodox Christians who, while remaining steadfast in the Orthodox beliefs (a good thing, too!!), are more open and informed about these issues and can discuss them intelligently. I sometimes wonder what conferences like Orientale Lumen would be like if the Orthodox participants were like Robert Sweiss – thankfully that is not the case.

4. Unity can only happen through love. Thankfully, there are many Orthodox who are serious about unity, and who realize that this can only take place in the context of a dialogue of love. Without love, we will surely convince noone of anything and will, in fact, only become hardened ourselves – what a pity, spiritually.

In Christ,

Brendan

XPNCTOC BOCKPECE!

Thanks, John, Stuart, Feodosij, Bob Tallick and Brendan. What you wrote means a lot to me. Stuart, Bob and Brendan are right about my past and present jurisdictions.

By the way, my girlfriend is a born Ruthenian Catholic and turned to the Internet for more info when, as an adult, she learned of her church's Orthodox heritage. Sadly, the anti-Catholic, including anti-'Uniate', writings on the 'Net have so deeply hurt her that now she is actually afraid to set foot in an Orthodox church.

http://oldworldrus.com

Rusnak,

Sorry to hear that about your girl friend. Please encourage her to visit Orthodox churches and pray with them. There is so much to learn in both churches and Christ will be with her in either. I love the fellowship of the Orthodox. They are zealous Christians and it shows in their expression of faith. A very heartening experience in this secular world.

The humble servant of Jesus Christ,
John Chizmar

Christ is Risen! Christos Anesti! Unity or union? "Nothing worth doing is completed in our lifetime;therefore,we must be saved by hope."-Reinhold Niebuhr Had an interesting time reading various Papal documents on the Unia. Started out enthusiastic; ended disappointed. The historical reality is:Eastern-rite Catholics have definitely been "back-benchers" in the eyes of the Vatican.Hopefully, that will change with a new generation of more truly "catholic" leaders.
Have a request: Where can I find one or two good Chalcedonian Orthodox forums that are as active or almost as active as this one. I mean:Russian Orthodox, Greek, Romanian,etc. Does anyone know if the Alexandrian Patriarchate has a forum? Thanks.

Brendan,
I was never really an Eastern Catholic even though both my parents were married in a Greek Catholic Church. I was baptized as an Orthodox but brought up thinking Roman Catholic. What a mess! At this time I can care less about your views of me. You need to acknowledge the truths in as far as I have stated. My views of the misguided church of the Latins and Uniates needs major repairs. My challenge to you since you have made the claim that my views are "ill-founded, ill-educated" I ask you to prove it. The burden of proof is on you. Demonstrate from Holy Tradition that Papal Infallibility, Suprermacy, created grace, Augustian original guilt, Immaculate Conception, Assumption, filioque, baptismal sprinkling, Paschal celebration, etc are absolutely true without contradicting the Byzantine Catholic Church? I believe that your supposed accusations about my views are based upon your ignorance and your way of fending me off. Why don't you accept my above challenge rather than presenting you critic of me? Do you know how to focus on the topic or do you experience tunnel vision from time to time in order to evade the issues at hand? Truth hurts when you do not admit it. It is unfortunate for a Uniate such as yourself to be in communion with the Latin Church. If you really want communion then why don't you correct the Latins and set them straight. I have heard enough lies and heresies in regards to the two having valid traditions. Show your love by ridding of what I have stated or remain a prisoner to lies. You know that the Father of all lies is but Satan and you have the audacity to be in communion with Rome who is still in error. If your really love the Papacy and her Pope then correct and save them from their errors. Do you have the courage to do so? I bet you don't even care. I bet you don't have the courage. I am even willing to bet that you have accepted Catholicism by commingeling her teaching with her Eastern rites beliefs. The two are not one but contradictory. How some of you Uniates cover up this dichotomy is a huge sham and in fear of Rome retaliating. My last words to you, prove me wrong on my views of the Latin Church and on Catholicism. Take up the challenge since you accused me of having an "il-founded, il-educated" view of Catholicism. I await your response.

Laudetur Jesus Christus!
Dear Robert Sweiss,
Your last post amazed me extremly. Like a tricky lawyer you demand Brendan that he will supply evidences for his opinions. But these opinions are about your charges against catholics of various traditions, you launched previously (and of course you still do). Then the burden of proof is on you.
You charge us of defying Holy Tradition. We pledge NOT GUILTY. Please show evidences for the