As a Byzantine Catholic I consider myself Orthodox in communion with the Holy Father and pray for the day that all Christians are united under the Vicar of Christ. I love to visit Orthodox churches, pray and learn about our faith. So much of our heritage, theology, art, ect., is recorded and compiled by our Orthodox bretheren. But the problem I have with the Orthodox is that they seem more intent on admonishing Catholics than on admonishing sinners.

Everytime I come in contact with Orthodox clergy and monastics, they seem intent on converting me to their faith and barraging me with divisive rhetoric about the Catholic Church. They fail to realize that I'm already on their side. I believe the Orthodox have a valid profession of faith and a proper expression of worship.

The Orthodox have a public relations problem. They are too exclusionary. while it is good to carry on the traditions brought over from their countries of origin, alot of them still practice their liturgies in those languages. Not only alienating outsiders but their very own youth as well.

The Orthodox not only have problems with their Catholic counterparts but also have feuds with other Orthodox as well. Even divisions between Orthodox of the same country of origin!

The Catholic Church has its problems, but I believe it is truly universal. I see people of all races even in the more ethnic Eastern Catholic Churches.

Its time to stop the divisive bickering and finger pointing, and to unite this Church of Christ. Shun the demons of nationalistic pride and build one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.

I fear that I won't live to see it but I pray for God to work this miracle soon.

The humble servant of Jesus Christ,
John Chizmar

John,

My prayer is the same as yours. If we don't see it in our life times it is still a worthy goal toward which to work.

I have been so warmly greeted already my my Byzantine Catholic Church that I'm sorry to note that there are so many parishes that still insist that the traditions of the "old country" somehow supersede the Gospel admonition to make disciples.

My parish is the Church of the Annunciation in Homer Township in the Southwestern suburbs of Chicago. We occasionally use Slovanic and Latin but 90% of the liturgy is in English. I plan to learn the languages out of love for my new brothers and sisters but I am so thankful that the majority of the liturgy is not in the European tongues. We simply would not have been able to join if they had been.

Dan Lauffer

Dear Dan,

Christ is Risen!

(or, as many of us say, Christos Voskres!)

I am so glad to hear that you have been warmly welcomed in your parish community. However, I hope that you don't believe that you are being welcomed "in spite of your non-'ethnic' background."

I am also curious to know where these "so many parishes" are you have encountered that put ethnic "old country" traditions ahead of the Gospel. I am fairly well-traveled throughout Byzantine Christendom as it exists in the northeast USA, and even in parishes which don't use a word of English, there was never any confusion on my part whether it was a Temple of the Living God or an ethnic club. If there are individuals in them who really believe (or - let's cut them some slack, shall we? - merely act) otherwise, then that's one sin among many which we human beings commit.

Would you elaborate on the instances in your parish in which the Latin language is used? As far as I know, there is no reason for a Ruthenian church anywhere in the world to ever use Latin, *except* (the one exception) as one of the languages of the Holy Gospel reading at the Paschal Divine Liturgy.

Thank you, and God be with you.

[This message has been edited by RichC (edited 05-02-2000).]

Rich,

It was the Paschal reading in which Latin is used. My reference to Ethnic enclave was in response to John's post. I have only known one Byzantine Catholic parish, the one we are joining.

Dan Lauffer

Rich

Don't be confused. I am admonishing the ethnic Orthodox Churches for their use of Old World languages. Not the Byzantine Catholics. The Byzantine Catholic use of English in liturgies in America is universal and wide spread. The number of non-ethnic converts is heartening and will continue to grow. It is the Orthodox who need to get their act together. To admonish sinners and to evangalize universally.

The humble servant of Jesus Christ,
John Chizmar

Dear John Chizmar,
You are no longer considered Orthodox and are not privileged to even use the name Orthodox in reference to the false communion with Rome. Catholicism is a distortion of Holy Tradition and has violated Ecumenical teachings and cannons. Catholicism claims to accept the Seven Ecumenical Councils but practices otherwise. Only the Orthodox Church can be properly referred to as the Church of the Seven Ecumenical Councils in belief and practice. You should truly consider conversion to Orthodoxy. Uniatism is built on falsehood and has targeted the Orthodox Church when in essence they should of focused their energies in correcting the lies of Catholicism. Why do you also suffer from tunnel vision when it comes to Orthodoxy? Don't you know about the divisions in Catholicism and about her splinter groups? Why don't you bother explaining the feuding that happens with these splinter groups or even better yet the problems of American Catholicism versus Rome? What about the immigrants that came to America with their ethnic baggages and feuds between Germans, Italians, Irish, Spanish, etc? What about the oppressive Latinizations that have occurred and keeping reoccurring over time on you Uniates? Since you believe the Orthodox are exclusionary then by deductive reasoning the Catholic Church is inclusionary. That is why it is okay to give the Eucharist to a person like Bill Clinton. Your ignorance about the Orthodox Church has lead you to believe that we alienate inquisitive outsiders. Then why is it that the Orthodox Church is the fastest growing Church in America? Maybe you had a bad experience with one of the Orthodox Churches but many of our converts still pursued Orthodoxy and were eventually allowed in. What the Orthodox believer has to say about Catholicism is universally believed as true. You don't want to accept the Orthodox view of Catholicism then you have to live with that denial. What you believe about Catholicism is quite narrow. You must truly believe that the Pope is the head of the Universal Church when it is really Christ. Wake up and smell the coffee.

Robert,

You wrote:

"Only the Orthodox Church can be properly referred to as the Church of the Seven Ecumenical Councils in belief and practice."

Hmm...does that mean that the Orthodox Church observes ALL of the canons of ALL of the seven councils you mentioned?

You also wrote:

"That is why it is okay to give the Eucharist to a person like Bill Clinton. Your ignorance about the Orthodox Church has lead you to believe that we alienate inquisitive outsiders."

Ummm...actually, it wasn't "okay" to give the Eucharist to Bill Clinton. That priest was in fact taken to task for his actions.

Also, your constant...incessant...obsessive...and many times misinformed tirades against the Catholic Church probably alienate more inquisitive folks from Orthodoxy, than any ethno-centrism.

So...who is ignorant of whom?

BTW, I spoke with my spiritual father re: the situation in Jordan. (He is a Melkite priest living in the US - but spent 12 years in the Middle East.) He confirmed your account of how many members of the Latin Church have acted towards the Orthodox in some of their "evangelization" tactics...as well as with the marriage thing. To me, this is a tragedy, and a terrible scandal. I can only hope and pray for healing between our two Churches for all of the wrongs that we have committed against each other.

And by the way, I prefer Folgers for my coffee...especially at 2:00am.



Peace,

Gordo, sfo

[This message has been edited by Dozier (edited 05-03-2000).]

Friends,

I'm beginning to feel sorry for Robert. He seems to have a need to try to carry the weight, and to him it seems to be a dreadful burden, of the whole of Christianity. Notice how he keeps using the red scowling face on his posts.

Too bad Jesus did not understand Christianity the way Robert does. Just imagine, he could have had hyper tension and a grumping disposition as well.

Dan Lauffer

Unbelievable!

Dear Robert,

First you say that we Byzantine Catholics have no right to call ourselves Orthodox.

Immediately thereafter you claim that our communion with Rome is a "false communion."

Well, you can't have it both ways -- either we are not Orthodox and are just Roman Catholics pretending to be Eastern, and our communion is perfect (we are they and they are us, you can't be more in communion than that), or we are Orthodox who are in a false communion with Rome.

In your world of absolutes, there is no possibility of being somewhere in the middle.

And I agree with John, your kind of "Orthodoxy" I don't need. The Orthodoxy of the Church of the Seven Ecumenical Councils, yes, but the Orthodoxy which glories in telling others (even other Orthodox) how wrong they are? No thanks!

"By their fruits you will know them."

"A new commandment I give to you, love one another as I have loved you."

"See how they love one another!"

Christ is Risen!

"I tell you, that is why her many sins are forgiven--because of her great love. Little is forgiven the one whose love is small." Luke 7:47

Joe Prokopchak
archsinner

To Dozier,
What I have stated is not "misinformed tirades against the Catholic Church" but the facts as they are. For someone to make the above-statement is really acting defensive and have no better ways of dealing with the facts. One day you will have your Folgers coffee and become Orthodox. By the way it is good of you to have verified the Latin "evangelization tactics" upon the Orthodox with your spiritual Father. Has he ever explained the creation of uniatism in relation to the Orthodox Church?

Dan Lauffer,
I don't need sympathy from a uniate but rather answer the questions as I have stated. Diversion tactics are the games you uniates play.

RichC,
Orthodoxy does not accept or believe in Catholicism. Therefore, you simply are not and cannot be Orthodox. Abandon Catholicism and come to the Orthodox Church in order to be chrismated. Continuing to believe the lies that you are Orthodox in communion with Rome will affect your very own salvation. Better yet, why don't you ask any Orthodox bishop if he believes you are an Orthodox? He might either tell you that you are an apostate, a wanna-be-Orthodox, or simply NOT.

Somebody get me a beer.

Yosko Prokopchak
Hospodi Pomiluj !!

Geez, I haven't asked any bishops lately, but a few years ago I was sititng with the Greek Orthodox priest's wife, chatting after a wedding. (The Greeks in town sometimes lower their standards enough for this Uniate scum to sing their weddings.) We were kidding about "us" and "them." She said "the Roman Catholics are "them," but you're "us."

It ain't theological, but it made me smile.

BTW, y'all remember the old one about St. Peter taking the new arrivals on a tour of Heaven? They got to a certain place, and St. Pete told everyone to fly very quietly past this one area. Someone in the back asked why, and he replied "Oh, that's the ROCOR neighborhood. They think they're the only ones up here."

Cheers,

Sharon

Sharon Mech, SFO
Cantor & sinner
sharon@cmhc.com

Can you say, "Piling on"?

Robert is far less strident than many Latin Catholics on Catholic forums I have seen. Strictly speaking both Robert and many Catholic or Orthodox "hard-liners" are canonically correct in declaring the other side "wrong" on many matters of discussion here. Viewing the placing of these "errors" before the theoretically offending party as an act of warning charity is just as valid from both sides. The degree to which it generates productive discussion can be debated, but I won't question his sincerity or his intent or his dedication to our Lord.

They serve a good purpose to remind us, that in an effort to reach common ground that we not forget or abandon important things. We may not like what they have to say, but that doesn't mean important things are not being stated.

Depending on how you wish to see it, being in communion with the Roman Patriarch means serving at the good pleasure of the Roman Pontiff. That is the cost/benefit of being in communion with Rome. It is not how you choose to see Rome that matters to clerical practice most, it is how Rome views its authority that matters most. Any license granted towards recovering your original traditions can be taken away unless Rome has so stated definitively and concretely it will not take them away.

Whether that's good or bad depends on your POV, but that's the way it is for now.

>>>Dan Lauffer,
I don't need sympathy from a uniate but rather answer the questions as I have stated. Diversion tactics are the games you uniates play.<<<
--------------------------------------------

Dear Servant of God, Dan

Christ is Risen !

You poor boy, Dan. You haven't been received into the Byzantine Catholic Church yet and already you are being accused of being a uniate and playing uniate games.

Welcome to the Metropolia of Pittsburgh !!

Caution !! Warning !!

You are about to enter a "Bridge Over Troubled Waters" Proceed with caution !! On one side you will find the Latin Church. Most of it's faithful don't understand us and some of those who do would gladly buy us a First Class one way ticket back to our jusisdictional See of origen.

On the other side you will find the Orthodox Church. With it's faithful we share the same spritual DNA. But we are chastised by some because of decisions our forefathers made hundreds of years ago. We are still in love with our first love, but like our sometimes teenage loves in high school we are looked upon as being weird and not cool. Sometimes this love is not returned to us.

But be of good cheer my brother Dan. You will be welcomed with open arms by your brothers and sisters in the Byzantine Catholic Church. And with them you will stand on this bridge over troubled waters wearing a cloak of suffering. Be not afraid of this cloak for it has an inner lineing of love. And it is this inner lineing that will protect you in your suffering from what you will endure from both sides of the bridge.

Joe Prokopchak
St. Nicholas Byzantine Catholic Church
Archeparchy of Pittsburgh