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Re: Close, but no cigar. #98961 01/04/00 08:23 PM
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Bill:
Thank you, Bill Mo, for your responses. Our Moderator, Dr. John seems to have a loss for words since my last post to him.


Dr. John:
I posted a number of questions to you about Orthodoxy. Your input would be appreciated.


Elias, the Traditionalist, neo-Fascist, pre-processed fertilizer Uniate



[This message has been edited by Elias (edited 01-05-2000).]

Re: Close, but no cigar. #98962 01/11/00 10:24 PM
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Dr. John, Moderator,

Hello!? I haven't heard from you lately. I was only getting worried about your absence.

Elias

Re: Close, but no cigar. #98963 01/01/01 07:32 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by Elias:
Many fear union more than damnation. [...]
He who never receives communion at liturgy can't talk about communion of the churches. [...] He who has already rejected Christ, will never accept unity with fellow Christians.


Elias,

These are about the best succinctly put expressions of truth on this issue that I've seen here. Thanks.

Pax Christi,
John

Re: Close, but no cigar. #98964 01/02/01 04:33 AM
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Christ is Born! Glorify Him!

In relationship to some statements about the Western Rite in the Antiochian Orthodox Archdiocese of North America I feel that I should offer some clarification.
1) Most of those who have entered into the Western Rite Orthodoxy are former Episcopalians and Anglicans who, after the despair of Modernist Anglicanism, sought to return to a more conservative and orthodox worship form.
2) Most of the Western Rite Orthodox have never, personally, been under the Roman Catholic Church, during their lifetime, and have strong feelings of disagreement about the Primacy of Peter as taught by the Roman Catholic Church.
3) The Western Rite utilizes an adapted Anglican Liturgy that has been purged of protestant and non-orthodox practice ---these changes were recommended by the Russian Synod at St Tikhon's request (i.e. the Liturgy of St Tikhon). The other Liturgy, St. Gregory, as I understand it comes from an adapted Latin Mass that was used by High Church Anglicans ---- it was also corrected to meet orthodox practice.
4) In the Western Rite the use of Iconography is encouraged but statues are not totally disallowed. Traditional western personal piety and spirituality practices are encouraged--the Rosary, Stations of the Cross, Litanys to the Mother of God, etc ---these are found in the Western Rite Prayerbook (which is in its 2nd edition at present).

It is important to note that unlike the Byzantine Catholics who came directly out of the Eastern Orthodox Churches and re-entered into communion with the Pope---the Western Rite Orthodox have come home to Orthodoxy out of the protestant churches, primarily, and not out of the Roman Catholic---in a sense a "return to the historic orthodox and catholic church" rather than choosing the Roman/Latin Rite Catholic Church. The Orthodox rather than proselyzing members from the Church of Rome, opened the door to those who were not a part of the Roman catholic Church for centuries . It offered them another way to the Church of the New Testament. Perhaps we Eastern Orthodox will learn some of the spirituality of the West thru these converts and their focus on early Celtic and Anglican spirituality of the West.

Who knows it may open the door to greater understanding between the two sister churches based upon mutual respect for their spiritual traditions!

Your brother in Christ,
Thomas

[This message has been edited by Thomas (edited 01-01-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Thomas (edited 01-02-2001).]

Re: Close, but no cigar. #98965 01/02/01 12:20 PM
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I've read that the level of praxis of Catholicism in many Western European countries (such as France!) is so minimal, that the Pope has essentially written them off as pagan countries in need of re-evangelization. I've also read that the level of praxis of Catholicism in Spain is in a state of serious decline and the same applies to the Catholic minority in England?

Is any of this true?




Is this true?

Re: Close, but no cigar. #98966 01/02/01 04:57 PM
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Church attendence in Europe:

Ireland: 80%
Poland (Catholics): 65%
Luxembourg: 50%
Belgium 40%
Switzerland (Catholics) 35%
Italy: 35%
Ukraine (Catholics) 35%
Spain: 30% (60% in north, 10% in south)
UK (Catholics) 30%
Germany (Catholics) 29%
Austria: 25%
Portugal: 25%
Slovakia: 20%
Natherlands: 15%
Ukraine (Orthodox) 15%
Switzerland (Protestants): 15%
Finland: 12%
France: 10%
Germany (Protestants) 10%
Hungary 10%
Bulgaria: 10%
Czech Rep.: 10%
Russia (Orthodox) 9%
Norway: 8%
Serbia: 5%
Greece: 4%
Sweden: 4%

Re: Close, but no cigar. #98967 01/02/01 05:17 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by Kurt:
Church attendence in Europe:

Ireland: 80%
snip...


Kurt,

Where did you get the figures? Do you know what the figures are for the U.S., Canada, Mexico, and South America? (I know you only responded to the European question. I'm just curious.)

Re: Close, but no cigar. #98968 01/03/01 02:07 PM
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Prof. David Martin, Universoity of Birmingham (UK) "A Theory of Secularization". His study only covered Europe.

K.

Re: Close, but no cigar. #98969 01/03/01 04:00 PM
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Just a question --

Are these statistics based on consistent sampling and questioning? In other words, are the standards used in various countries the same (i.e., is it people who go every week, or is the question differently posed in different places?).

Brendan

Re: Close, but no cigar. #98970 01/03/01 04:21 PM
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Yes, thouhg I think Prof. Martin pointed out two wek points in the research. One being that church attendence might not give consideration to other forms of practice. For example, while German Catholics and Protestants have great variance in chruch attendence, in both cases about 50% pray regularly.

Scandivanians have low church attendence, but over a third listen to church services on the radio or TV.

Scandavians, Russians and Belarusians might overstate the attendence at Lutheran/Orthodox churches as most persons who attend "Free Churches" still describe themselves as members of the national church for non-religious reasons.

K.

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