On the Catholic Answers forum http://forums.catholic.com/index.php? there is a fairly constant stream of Latin 'traditionalists' who quite vociferously advocate their interpretation of this meaning no salvation for anyone outside the visible Catholic (even Roman Catholic, sometimes!) Church (i.e unless you are a card carrying Catholic you are damned); unless you are baptised you cannot be saved, including in some cases rejection of non-Catholic baptisms; non baptised babies go to hell or limbo etc, etc, etc.

I continually post the appropriate CCC references and others to refute them. I am getting a bit tired of it and might spend more time here I think where the charity level is a lot higher...

Anyway, just interested, are these guys a purely Latin phenomenon or are there Eastern Catholic versions as well?

JGC

Glory to Jesus Christ!

I know what you mean, the hard-core.

I think it is difficult to generalize. I do believe that "outside the church, no Salvation" would, strictly speaking be an interpretation of the Orthodox position as well.

We don't see that fanaticism expressed much around here but there are those Orthodoxy or Die! types that fly in.

No matter who may have that attitude, East or West they don't fit in well here and the going can be rough for them (and for all) if they press the case.

It is difficult to dialog with someone who keeps reminding you that they think you're a heretic.

The E E N S types can be particularly out of place here because this is a specifically Eastern Christian board but not a specifically Catholic board (despite the name), and they are imposing a Western Catholic perspective. Eventually such individuals will leave or tone down the rhetoric, if they can mute their personal convictions just a bit I usually find their contributions very enlightening, it can be a dissapointment when they stop posting.

Anyway that's how I see it.

Michael,
that sinner

No, we have ours also. Check out HOCNA, http://hocna.org/ and the ROAC http://www.russianorthodox-roac.com/ among others. They believe some of the "canonical" Orthodox jurisdictions and bishops are in heresy because they are too ecumenical, etc.

Every Christian denomination has those that believe one can only be 'saved', if they follow their own dogma or tradition. I believe that they are inflexible, because even the slightest thought otherwise, will make them waver in their personal faith.

Actually, it is our Lord that 'comes' into our hearts. We do not reach 'up' to Him, so the only thing of importance, is that we willingly open our hearts to Him. If one specific denominational, or jurisdictional 'way' manages to open more peoples hearts than another, it is probably due to a greater cultural affinity in the way they worship, as well as the endownment given by the Holy Spirit within that parish.

Somehow, I have found that the extent of the presence of the Holy Spirit, is dependant upon the priest together with the pious individuals within a certain congregation. There is an interaction between pious individuals, that permeates within the church, giving it peace and making it holy.

I have also sensed within churches, the complete opposite. I have been in churches, where the tension was excessive, and where I lacked a sense of peace.

I think one of the reasons for that fundamentalist viewpoint and 'elitism', is because of the different way people perceive things. I read the prophecy of Saint John Kronstadt posted by Matthew, and realized that the star (pentagram), that was on everyone's lips (speech), hands (works), and elbow (embrace), in the prophecy; might be interpreted differently by different people.

Where I see the 'star' as a 'satanic' symbol of 'Wicca', reflecting the modern New Age Movement of all world religions as being equal and the same, another person's interpretation of the 'star', might be any denomination that deviates from their own personal way of worship.

Zenovia

It has probably disappeared from this site as I wrote it many months ago.. but it was some research into how the early fathers interpreted the phrase "no salvation outside the church" and the context was limited to apostates - heretics who were members of the church - and now under excommunication… so the prase is applied only to those who are directly excommunicated from the church and to no one else… and it did not extend to anyone outside church membership. So that phrase is constantly misused today.

The early councils insisted that God can and does save non-members of the church. It is call justification (the official phrase is ‘righteous gentile’) and God may give it to whomever he wants to.

Members of the church may also - fail - there is no personal guarantee in membership.

And in the Catholic Catechism it does give the highest rule of the Catholic church - a Christian is - must- follow his own conscience in matter of which his conscience is clear.

You are on the right track. Do not let anyone rob you of your conscience and its voice.

-ray

Ray,

Oh, ye of little faith, little disappears from here. You actually addressed the subject in two threads within a few weeks time. They are at:

No Salvation Outside the Church and

My Take On Sanctum Unam

Many years,

Neil

Dear JGC,

As others have noted, no. This phenomenon exists across Christianity and other religions, it seems to be part of the human condition.

There are two groups that come to mind of ECs, one is "canonical" the other is not. I can only locate the non-canonical site now, when I find the other I will post it. Surely many know of this group.

http://www.redemptorists.org.uk/red/ehome.htm

Tony

Tony et al - here you are

http://www.kinnoull.org/redempt.htm

I got this one by going to the Kinnoull Site first - and they are genuine

Anhelyna

JGC - have you got a link to the Edinburgh Parish of the' Reds' ?

JGC,

Randy mentioned HOCNA; the whole story of HOCNA is summed up in this exchange between Alice and me a few months back.

Many years,

Neil

Anhelyna,

Hmmm. By "two groups that come to mind of ECs" I was referrig to "traditionalists" in the negative sense. There is another group, not very organized, I will find the site later.

Thanks for this link though!

Tony

First please let me correct your terminology. The use of the term "Roman Catholic" has never been officially used in the Church. The Catholic Church is composed of 22 Churches all in communion with the Pope of Rome. The proper title for "Roman Catholic" is the Latin Church. Secondly it must be believed by all Catholics that there is no salvation outside of the Apostolic Church of Rome. Those people cannot be saved who know the Catholic Church to be the truth and refuse to enter or stay in her. This cannot be watered down. This is the truth. This is what the Holy Catholic Church teaches.

Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum,
Michael

Dear Friends,

This reminds me of an Orthodox Elder who, when asked about the salvation of Protestants, said: "Leave them alone for they have a Saviour who will look after them."

Alex

My cousins who are Lutherans visited here from back east a year ago, and attended our Sunday Divine Liturgy service. They happened to ask me the question about salvation outside the Church. I told them what I think is the most honest answer, and they agreed: "I don't know. I can only speak to what my Church says for me. God knows, however."

Mike,

First, please, let me correct your numbers . The Catholic Church is comprised of 23 Churches in communion with the Pope of Rome.

Secondly, let me ask if you see a conflict between the sentence "It must be believed ..." and that which begins "Those people cannot be saved ..."? The first seems rather absolutist and the second to be somewhat equivocal in relation to it.

If I may, I suggest a kinder, gentler approach to your fellow human beings, believing that God may actually prefer such a stance; certainly, the Pope and the Church have suggested it.

Many years,

Neil, who is going to make a macro soon that says - we're 23 - the Georgians are not extinct yet

This is a safe, correct, and true approach to the question:

We in the Church know that the Spirit dwells in the Church and brings those within it to Christ's salvific sacrifice and promise of life everlasting.

What we don't know and cannot say authoritatively is how and when and where the Spirit acts outside of the boundaries of the Church.

In Christ,
Andrew