Over the past two months, we've been berated with messages from the mass media and self-identified experts relating to Islam -- much of it rather conciliatory and semi-apologetic in tone. In Orthodox circles, I have heard much less positive things being said -- probably because of our different experience, historically, with Islam. That leads me to wonder whether there is, more generally, a difference in perspective between East and West concerning Islam. What do you think?

Hey there Brendan, nice to see you back!

All I can give you is what I have seen at the Melkite Parish I attend.

It seems that those who go there that were born in the USA seem to be a bit more open to Islam, a bit more positive about it, more open to dialogue with it.

Now, those that were born in the Middle East, mainly Lebanon are very negative in their approach to Islam to the point of disagreeing with the statement that Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all worship the same God. They say the God of Islam is not the God of Judaism and Christianity.


Your brother in Christ,
David

Dear Brendan,

It is good to see your name as a fellow poster again.

As usual, you raise a good question.

From my limited experience the response among Latin Catholics has been pretty agnostic about Islam. The learning curve is great and most of the teaching is being done by the media, secular and religious, and the government.

The opinions expressed by the ordinary parishoner that I've heard have been spread across the spectrum. Many have expressed the conciliatory position that Islam is a religion of peace and as that the terrorists do not represent that religion. Many others say that they don't know enough about Islam to say one way or another. They're angry about the attack and its aftermath. Others are less conciliatory and certainly less apologetic, in any sense of that word.

In one letter to the editor published in The Florida Catholic this week, the writer chastises the paper for allowing Moslems to present a picture of Islam as a religion of peace and tolerance. He then points out the precarious condition of Catholics and other Chrisitans who live in countries such Sudan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia and others. He points out that a Moslem who converts to Christianity in Saudi Arabia is liable to death.

So it seems to me to be a mixed bag among the Latin Catholics when we talk about a Western perspective on Islam. I think the only position on which there is consensus is the need to pray for peace and to do whatever can be done to help survivors and support our military.

I look forward to hearing others responses to your question.

I also look forward to learning from you and discussing with you again. Welcome back!

Please do not allow the written expression impede the meaning or the love.

Steve

JOY!

[ 11-12-2001: Message edited by: Inawe ]

The Western media has a thing about Christianity. Typically, clergy and nuns are presented as goofs and idiots. Bishops are horrible despots, full of evil.

Disney has no affection for Christianity with all of its "magic".

Western PC crowds give attention to learn what Islam is all about without criticism of their beliefs. Christianity, on the other hand, is mocked and riduculed to no end.

Our culture, once considered "Christian", has become a soft underbelly of jelly. We allowed Christmas to be stolen by the commercializers with all their hype about Santa, bunny wabbits with eggs, and witches. The Christian message was muffed out. It is OK in some states to burn a cross. But dare ya to burn a Star of David or a copy of the Koran.

I teach Comparative Religions. We are set to begin our segment on Islam. I can teach the "basics" which is mostly that they are truly an authentic expression of people's desires to serve God, that they claim to worship the same God as the Christians and Jews, and that "Jihad" is really an internal spiritual struggle. I don't think that covers everything that needs covering. There is simply too much evidence that points out that "Jihad" really isn't just an internal spiritual struggle for most of Islam. Nor is it simply a defensive battle against enemies. Rather, to at least a large portion of Muslims, it refers to a violent means of proselytism and worse.

Any ideas?

Dan Lauffer

[ 11-12-2001: Message edited by: Dan Lauffer ]

"There is simply too much evidence that points out that "Jihad" really isn't just an internal spiritual struggle for most of Islam. Nor is it simply a defensive battle against enemies. Rather, to at least a large portion of Muslims, it refers to a violent means of proselytism and worse.
Any ideas?"

Well, history does not lie, and the history of Islam has been one long sad string of conquest and conversion by the sword. The great Hillaire Belloc does a great job expaining the history and personality of Islam and it does not match what the liberal media is force feeding us. Hilaire Belloc says concerning Islam that the islamic temper from it's begining was "not tolerant. It was on the contrary fanatical and bloodthirsty."

Very interesting topic!

I think there might be a slightly different take on Islam in East and West, depending upon where in the West one happens to be.

I think in North America, many RC's are definitely more sympathetic (not sure if that's the right word) to Islam than those in countries like France and Spain, simply because our experience of Islam is so limited.

From talking to some Roman Catholics from African countries, however, it seems that their views on Islam would be much closer to the perspective of many Orthodox Christians as there is a great deal of tension with Muslims in certain parts of Africa.

God bless!

I would be incredulous if someone claimed that Orthodoxy and Catholicism were in agreement as to our respective relations with the world of Islam. As you state, historically, our respective experiences are very different, and in the case of Orthodoxy, Orthodox countries such as Russia, Armenia, and Georgia are still at war with Islamic terrorists or have been very recently. One could also include Cypriots and Egyptian Copts as current victims of Islamic aggression. ( And let us not forget that Americans are engaged in a war against Islamic terrorists that we must win.) That is a macro summary of the issue.

The micro view is often very different. It certainly is not unusual for individual Orthodox or even families to have Muslim friends, or even Muslim family members. However, this circumstance usually exists where individuals or families have a purely ethnic or family view of religion which is indifferent to theology and doctrine. I have seen this social phenomenon among Albanians, who often remark, "the religion of Albanians is Albania."
But even secularized Turkish and Balkan Muslims will use religion as one element of many in the cause of nationalism, (Of course, Christians also do the same.) So, I believe it is very important to discriminate between those who are sincerely Islamic, even if fanatics, and secularists who use the religion as a battle cry, but with ulterior motives.


As individuals we certainly can have Muslim friends. But if I lived in Kosovo (for example), I would live in a house with an escape tunnel and would sleep with a revolver under my pillow. After all, it isn't Christian charity to make it easy for your good Muslim "friends" to kill you and break THE FIFTH COMMANDMENT!

I am sure there must be many admonitions in the Scriptures warning us to be prudent and "on guard."

Wisdom, O Lord

Bill

[ 11-12-2001: Message edited by: Psalm 46 ]

In general, I think most Islamis are like many of their Christian counterparts -- sorta-kinda religious, but generally secular. In the Near East and the Balkans, one can find mixed families with both Christian and Moslem members, but this is not really the norm.

My problem with the Slamis is that the doctrinal elements of their faith allow them to both put down and even murder infidels. American Christians are really basically decent folks who are welcoming, but since they have no understanding of being in a "Moslem Society" and what that means for non-Moslems, there is no scepticism about their presence in the U.S. Unfortunately, this understanding of "Moslems in the U.S." is superimposed on what's happening over there. And that is just dangerous.

Samer's point about 'nationalism' being the counterfoil to islamic fundamentalism is very well taken. There are multiple currents that influence life in the Near East. And to use our experiences of life with Islamics in the U.S. to understand what is going on in the Near East is foolish. And dangerous.

Blessings!

The Muslims, the Muslims.....I can never speak enough of them, and my mind is usually overwhelmingly flooded with torrents of memory, ideas, and of the experience of a lifetime of living amongst these people, that I can never organize my thoughts into a coherent string of statements.

Let me put it this way. When Freud spoke of the convolution of admiration and spite man harbored towards woman, he might as well have been speaking about Muslims.

They can be your most intimate and loyal friends, especially in an amoral world such as ours, or your worst enemies.

They differ greatly from one region to the next as the current of Islam that stretches across the Islamic world encounters the many cultural, historical, religious, social, ethnic, and economic currents that vary from one area to the next. It's very, very complicated.

I say: Let history judge the religion. Unlike Christianity, Sunnite Islam whose adherents were led by the caliphic state that predominantly ruled over the Muslim world, does not have a divinely instituted teaching authority to interpret the "true meaning" of the religion, the standard by which the actions of those who invoked Islam may be judged. Because of the absence of such a "Church", I hold that history's witness to the Muslim state's actions functions as the only candidate that can be considered the ideal ambassador of the religion. The state I refer to (there were rival caliphic dynasties and Shi'ite kingdoms) is that started by Abu-Baker and up and finished with the last Ottoman sultan.

Dr. John, I'll have to see a Lebanese arms dealer I have connections with about those Uzis. I'll need time to arrange for their delivery though. (I'll get each of us some Uzo and Araq along with those)

However at the moment, I do have a compass in case my skirmishes with outsiders have to take place over desert terrain.

Funny though...it points towards Mecca. Do you think that will be helpful?

In IC XC
Samer

[ 11-13-2001: Message edited by: SamB ]

Very interesting thread!

May I add my own observation? Or rather what someone once told me?

When I was in seminary, my OT Prof. was a Russian Orthodox priest. He was annoyed at how many of our RC professors would speak of Islam on the same level as Judaism & other Christian groups. He maintained that Islam was the "Mormonism" of eastern Christianity, and this was key to understanding it. Like the Mormons, Islam co-opted an existing religions through the visions of a so-called prophet. Both belief systems have high moral standards for their members, but are fundamentally wrong (read heretical) concerning the basic truths about God, Christ, salvation, etc. This does not mean that Muslims are not sincere or decent people - but to say we share any common "faith" is problematic.

As far as the rhetoric we hear from our President and others concerning "peaceful Islam" and how the Taliban and bin Laden are to Islam what the KKK is to Christianity, well this is a gross simplification and even quite misleading. I've seen on some more thoughtful news media and read in books like "Among the Believers" by V.S. Naipul that the majority of Muslims in the world are very replused by a West they see as godless and a direct challenge to their way of life. Ths is not a minority! Remember, the common people in the Middle East celebrated to see "the great Satan" struck hard.

I recommend the book by Naipul to get an insider's view of Islam. I think he just won the Pulitzer or Nobel prize for literature. This book was written shortly after the Iranian revolution but it still has much to say of our current situation.

That's funny; I was thinking of a similiar simile, but not quite along those lines. Here's a tidbit. The Druze are the Muslims' Mormons. Amazing she is our Church. She doesn't allow any yahoo to start calling himself a new prophet. Gnostic esotericism is not our cup of tea.

[that the majority of Muslims in the world are very replused by a West they see as godless and a direct challenge to their way of life. Ths is not a minority!]

As for anti-American sentiments, well, you described mine perfectly

In IC XC
Samer

Hi everyone.

Thanks for your replies.

I agree with Steve that it is very hard to generalize -- I think here in the USA people are mostly ignorant about Islam, and this informs a lot of personal opinions about the religion. I think Mike's point about the opinions Western Christians in other places, such as Africa, is an excellent one.

I also agree with Dr. John that there is a tendency to superimpose the images of American (presumably patriotic American) Muslims over against the Muslims outside the West, and that leads to massive distortions.

As for Dan's question, I would agree with Sam that a religion like Islam has to be judged by its history. Historically, it has been a warrior faith from the very, very beginning, when Mohammed himself was raising armies, laying seige to cities, executing infidels -- all in the name of Allah and from the very beginning of the new faith. Therefore, to state that subsequent outbreaks of Islamic "militancy" are aberrational is itself a distortion that doesn't take into account the events of the earliest years of Islam. The warrior mentality is at the core of the faith -- Mohammed himself had it, and exercised it not just as a spiritual warrior, but as a military warrior. Islam will *never* be able to shake that, IMO, because it lies at the core of Islam itself.

Benedictine raises some interesting points as well. One Orthodox priest I have spoken with about this has described the Muslims as "our extreme Protestants" -- which is similar to the characterization of "Mormons" you mention. V.S. Naipaul has also written a follow-up to "Among the Believers" called "Beyond Belief" -- also well worth reading. In a recent interview with the NYT Magazine, Naipaul opined that it was pointless to speak of Islamic "moderation", because the very idea of Islam (attaining Paradise through struggle) excludes the concept of moderation -- how can one be a moderate about Paradise, IOW.

Our priest gave a sermon a few weeks ago about how Islam is not a religion of peace -- including quotes from the Quran, etc. It's almost taboo to say such things in the public square today -- which is unfortunate, because as a result there is a lot of wilful misinformation taking place.

Brendan

Dear Friends,

I would only add that Islam and any other religion is what is made of it by a particular historical community at a given point in time.

All religions have reacted in various ways to enlightenment ideologies and industrialization. They have all resisted, at one time or another, modernization and democratization. It is just that Islam is more adamant about opposing these than others.

Is Islam radically different from Christianity? Absolutely! So is every other religion when you come right down to it.

We are living in an age where the differences are highlighted more than any similarities and the former is called "fundamentalism." This is why Christians are persecuted not only by Muslims, but by Hindus and others as well in societies where they are a minority.

One problem with the ecumenical enterprise is its rationalism.

Secularized Christians like to say to Muslims and others, "Look, we all believe in one God, we all pray, we all have morals - let's like each other and pretend we're basically the same."

Well, we're not. Our God is a Trinity of Persons, each of Whom is God. Our Saviour is God who became incarnate and suffered what many consider to be the ignominy of the Cross. Our faith doesn't fit neatly into other people's religios categories, even though we may think that other faiths fit into ours.

I think we should be conscious of the real theological differences between us. We should avoid the anti-Muslim feelings that many Eastern Christians with a history of life in Islamic society would tend to have.

Our job is not to decide who is "close" to us and who is not in terms of faith.

Our job is to witness to the love of God Incarnate, Jesus Christ, in order to transfigure the world in His life and grace.

Ultimately, this mission that our Saviour gave us 2,000 years ago is what continues to make us a threat to others.

The greatest threat we pose is to other Christians who remain unmoved by the challenges of their faith.

Salaam Alekum,

Alex

Brendan et all,

I must add one important note about the virtually unprecedented and strange circumstances Islam finds itself in today, which makes our judgements even harder to make.

One of Islam's core concepts is the Ummah. And that Ummah has always been led by a caliph and ruler. The Islamic state (or rather Islamic Empire uniting much of the Muslim world) is something many of our 20/21st century minded Muslims would scoff at, fight to prevent at all costs, and not fathom in today's world. And yet, this political structure was always essential in this religion's history and a kind of caesaropapism was at the head of the Islamic military forces whose wrath our fathers and ancestors have known. An Islamic Ummah and world without "al Amir al Mu'mineen" (Prince of the Believers) or some head of an Islamic state is a new occurence altogether. There are fundamentalists who smell the coffee and demand the overthrow of the Arabist governments and the return of the "khaleefah" (caliphate). These are not a bunch of cantankerous idiots who don't make sense; they have a whole history and religion to support their pleas with, even if their movement hasn't much drive in the Arab world.

Today, the Muslim world is as disorganized as ever and lacks a central authority, with rag-tag desert foxes like Bin Laden calling to the whole Muslim world for jihad through a TV camera. We must remember that Islam is a state religion and always has been. Like Judaism, it sets norms for society and deals with practical earthly affairs on a close level. When the last Sultan and the sick man of Europe fell, we had the equivalent of the Eastern Church and Oecminical Patriarch realizing they were still around while the Empire, which had so many theological undertones in the past, was ultimately destroyed with the fall of the City Protected of God (Take me back to Constantinople, no you can't go back......).

Now Islam has to adjust to a situation it never faced before--a huge power vacuum lasting for a good long while. In all honesty, the tactics of Bin Laden and suicide bombing are not orthodox. They resemble the MO of the estoteric, heretical Shi'ite sect of Assasins more than they do the instrument of conventional warfare that the Muslim state employed. The latter however had its vicious troops (Dr. John, you are well acquainted with that tragic reality known as the Janiserries; for one to use his enemy's own blood against him as a crucial means of victory, is much too tragic to contemplate) as a critical instrument who loved to sack, as Constantinople's last days show us. Also, the unruly mob was not a nice thing to face.

Saladin was quite an exception as we know. The Europeans loved him so much as a model of chivalry that stories were made up (or were they?.....yes, yes they were) of Saladin being secretly baptized.

The Turks had the spike. That instrument of death is probably the worst sort of punishment imaginable after crucifixion. Believe me, we know what "state terror" is. The Palestinians didn't just make those two words up. Muslims were not dirty guerrilas in peasant-garb blowing themselves up--they were a vicious state, and history's worst specimens were well-groomed men with clean, spick and span uniforms and funny mustaches who spook terrible Arabic. Jamal Pasha "the Butcher" as he was known, was the last of the barbaric wretches we dealt with before the Arabic uprising.

In IC XC
Samer

[ 11-13-2001: Message edited by: SamB ]

Among some Balkan Islamic groups there exists a tacit belief/tradition that the non-Islamic world essentially exists merely for the benefit of Muslims.

For example, Christians and all they possess, including one's children and spouse, even land, wealth, etc., is merely held in trust by non-Muslims since Allah has decreed that the "world and all it contains" is the rightful possession of the Ummah Islami. In-other-words, Allah merely tolerates the Rum (and other "kafirs"), for the benefit of the cause of Islam and individual Muslims.

I do not know if this is the attitude of Muslims outside of the Balkan homeland. But it is self evident to at least some of us that non-Muslims, in the eyes of some Balkan Muslims, essentially had no innate human rights and were merely expendable once they were without utilitarian use to the Ummah Islami.

Bill

(PS-I do not want to paint Balkan Muslims with too broad of a brush. In Sarajevo and other parts of Bosnia, especially during the Tito regime, there were many examples of intermarriage between Slavic Muslims and Serbs and the Muslims essentially accepted Christians as equals within the greater community. Unfortunately, the ancient fires of ethnic and religious hatred were smoldering below the surface. Once the heavy hand of totalitarian rule was removed, and with the concurrent "Balkanization" of Yogoslavia,...well...a conflagration of hatred consumed the good intentions and lives of a erenic few.)

[ 11-13-2001: Message edited by: Psalm 46 ]

[ 11-13-2001: Message edited by: Psalm 46 ]

Dear Friends,

O.K., O.K., we can agree that not all Muslims are nice, as is the case with Christians etc.

But what should our relationship with them be today from the point of view of the imperatives of Christianity?

A Franciscan scholar on Islam who wrote "The Koran in the Light of Christ" understood it as a kind of "Old Testament."

He felt that Muhammad (peace be upon him!) had done much to bring the pagan world as he found it to the worship of the one God etc.

That his religious world view was imperfect from a Christian perspective is a given.

I have also come across writings by Muslim scholars who affirm openly that "incarnation would be the most perfect union between God and man."

Do the positives outweigh the negatives in Islam? What positive things can we do now, today, given what is going on in the world to reach out our hands to our Muslim neighbours and fellow citizens, as well as to the Muslim world?

Alex

Alex,
That is a strange view of the Qur'an in my view.

How can it be a kind of Old Testament when it was writen during the New Testament times?

It dates from the sixth century doesn't it?

Also, I am not sure that the negatives out weigh the positives but we can not take the positives without the negatives.

After all, the Qur'an denies the Divinity of Christ, among other things. Not to mention that the Qur'an teaches that the Torah and the Gospel have been corrupted by the Jews and Christians of the times to such a point that what we have today is different than that which was given to Moses and Jesus.

Your brother in Christ,
David

Dear David,

"Old Testament" in the sense that some have used it, that other religions are like an "Old Testament" that prepare the way for people to receive Christ. They are not the Christian message, but they come closer to it than what they believed before, that sort of thing.

St Augustine believed that the pagan Greek Philosophers had developed a kind of "Old Testament" in that their philosophy prepared the way for the pagan Greeks to accept Christ.

Alex

Not that the adherents of Islam have universally been paragons of Christian charity throughout the ages, but I am somewhat disturbed by the tenor of this discussion.

It rather reminds me of the occasional spitting matches between the folks who firmly believe that the [fill in your jurisdiction] Church has been victimized throughout history by the [fill in opposing jurisdiction] Church, and "victim" Church is without sin in these matters. These discussions also generally include a great deal about what the opposing Church supposedly professes. This sort of chat generates a lot of heat & not much light. The major difference (beyond the fact that Islam is not a Christian faith) is that in this discussion, we have no Muslim representation.

I firmly believe that my Faith is the Truth, and that my Lord and God and Savior Jesus Christ is wholly pure, and without sin. I do not believe that my Church nor its members have always shared all of these attributes, especially in dealing with those who do not profess the same Truth, nor present it in the same way.

For myself, I know that I am steeped in sin.

Just a thought. Pregnant women get moody, ya know.

Sharon

Sharon Mech, SFO
Cantor & sinner
sharon@cmhc.com

Dear Sharon,

But you've been famous for your pregnant ideas for way before this!

May St Gerard Majella protect you and yours always!

Alex

Sharon's point is well taken, and something I tried to emphasize in my previous post. That most of the commentary we hear about the true essence of Islam (i.e. from the President, news media, etc.) is coming from non-Muslims or Muslims placating a Western audience of the "politically-correct", "I'm OK, you're OK", "different strokes for different folks", multi-cultural, pluralistic crowd. This is one reason I cited the Naipaul book, because it lets Muslim voices speak for themselves.

This flattening out of any real discussion of the distinctions between our two very different worldviews actually HARMS substantive dialogue IMO. It seems to me we're all too eager to see our Muslim brothers & sisters through our own post-modern lens, and ignore the real challenge (both in a negative AND POSITIVE sense) Islamic culture and ideology presents to our contemporary secular society. It just easier to see them as "just like us" and the trivialize the uncomfortable aspects of their value system.

I would think that this comment would resonate with many posters here who often encounter a society that attempts to minimize Gospels values, or more specifically honest Christians who are ignorant & uneasy with Eastern Christianity's "alien-ness" in their model of a generically religious America. If Byzantines are not "Catholics with a funny mass" then Muslims should not be considered (anonymous) Christians with a strange Holy Book and alternative prophet.

So where does that leave us? How do we respond to our Muslim neighbors whether here or abroad? Well, we approach them with the love of Christ, recognizing that they are equally "children of God." And I believe that is the stance that the Pope operates out of. You don't ignore or trivialize differences, you don't say "hey we're really just the same", you don't co-opt their symbols & faith traditions as a way of showing how enlightened WE are! No you just say - let's sit and talk. Honest dialogue.

I have relatives of Albanian and Turkish Muslim descent who converted to Orthodoxy in the early 1920's, but not out of religious conviction. (One great uncle, Mehmet, refused to follow the rest of the family and, though not personally religious, clung to his Muslim secular culture. He had hutzpuh, to say the least.)

Not a few Albanian Muslims attend our Greek festivals and dances and enjoy our festivities, especially our food.
We never discuss religion, since in the old country such discussions often resulted in violence, even border skirmishes. But, person to person, such discussions can be productive, if friendship or improving community relations is your goal.


However, I would not get too idealistic about converting Muslims to Christ through Chamber of Commerce dinners and through the gospel according to Dale Carnegie. Muslims usually convert to Christianity for more practical reasons, such as mere survival. Others (a mere handful) will come to Christ out of conviction rooted in personal crisis, but that is rare. Of course, my observations on based on the "Balkans experience."


On the dark side, fraternal relations between Slavic Muslims and Christians in Bosnia-Herzogovina quickly vanished in the dust of war. Former school pals and next-door neighbors oftened betrayed one another, even murdered one another, in the name of a god or religion they didn't truly believe in.


In the Balkans, "friendship" between Muslims and Christians can be very tenuous. It is still a good idea to "sleep with a revolver under your pillow."


Mine is just one observation of many,but based on historical reality, facts and experience and certainly not on ivory tower hypotheticals and sugar-coated idealism.


On the other hand, our American or Canadian experience can be more fruitful, free of the horrendous memories of battles and massacres fought long ago.

Peace

Bill

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Islam, as the Russian Orthodox Priest noted is Byzantine Christianity's Mormon Church. In that a poorly educated frontiersman (read that poorly educated arab in the desert)who experiemented with many different expressions of Faith (Mohammed met with and studied Judaism, Christian Gnosticism, Christian-Arianism, Iconoclasts, and even esoteric Gnostic Monasticism) and like Joseph Smith had a visitation by an Angel (Gabriel) who gave him a hitherto unknown book, the Quron/Koran.

Like Joseph Smith and the early Mormons, he suffered rejection and prosecution---his response was to organize his followers militarily and fight back. Like Mormonism (which was seen by some as an off-shoot of the Restoration of ancient christianity bis-a-vis the Campbellite vision of "true religion") Islam was seen by Byzantine Christianity as just another heterodox/heretical group with their own vision of "true religion". Like Mormonism, Islam was not fully rejected until its teachings were known to be in such direct violation of Traditional Orthodox Christian Teachings of the Holy Trinity.

A reading of this week's Time Magazine will give some insight into the popular view of Islam and Christianity in the several Islamic magazines that are quoted in Time. It appears that for many it is not an issue of East versus West but of destruction of any and all Christian.

We need to pray especially for those Christians in pakistan and other Islamic countries who live in constant danger of Jihad and annihilation by their Moslem neighbors.

Your brother in Christ ,
Thomas

Islam — the Mormonism of Orthodoxy. That's one of the best ideas I've read! A different faith, not Christian, but intertwined with and an offshoot of Christianity. The parallel works.

I imagine a lot of people think Mormonism is Christian, just another brand of conservative, squeaky-clean evangelical Protestantism — a misconception I think the Mormons encourage. They can pull it off because this is a home-grown American religion whose roots culturally are in this kind of Protetantism but no longer so theologically. It blends in. (Most people don't realize Donny Osmond believes if he dies a good Mormon he'll get a whole planet full of humans who worship him as God — "spirit children' begotten by him and his own Mrs God. Mormons aren't monotheists!)

BTW, there is a Reorganized Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, led by actual descendents of Joseph Smith — although they accept the Book of Mormon as scripture, I believe that unlike Mormons these folks are Christians.

a poorly educated frontiersman (read that poorly educated arab in the desert)

Both Muhammad and Joseph Smith may have been poorly educated formally but I think both probably were brilliant and, it seems, self-taught — it takes a brain to seek to learn so much about various religions and then write a "holy book' accepted as such by a multitude not only in one's lifetime but centuries later. Muhammad mixed Judaism, Nestorian Christianity (plus Arianism and Gnosticism?) and pagan Semitic beliefs; Smith mixed his Protestant background with American Indian legends.

http://oldworldrus.com

La'illaha il'Allahu": There's no reality but God; there is only God

Praise to Early-Waking Grievers

In the Name of God the Most Merciful, and the Most Compassionate

This is the fourth journey toward home, toward where the great advantages are waiting for us. Reading it, mystics will feel very happy, as a meadow feels when it hears thunder, the good news of rain coming, as tired eyes look forward to sleeping. Joy for the spirit, health for the body. In here is what genuine devotion wants, refreshment, sweet fruit ripe enough for the pickiest picker, medicine, detailed directions on how to get to the Friend.

All praise to God. Here is the way to renew connection with your soul, and rest from difficulties. The study of this book will be painful to those who feel separate from God. It will make the others grateful. In the hold of this ship is a cargo not found in the attractiveness of young women.

Here is a reward for lovers of God. A full moon and an inheritance you thought you lost are now returned to you. More hope for the hopeful, lucky finds for foragers, wonderful things thought of to do. Anticipation thought of after depression, expanding after contraction. The sun comes out, and that light is what we give, in this book, to our spiritual descendents. Our gratitude to God holds them to us, and brings more besides. As the Andalusian (Spanish Muslim) poet, Adi al-Riga says,

"I was sleeping, and being comforted by a cool breeze, when suddenly a gray dove from a thicket sang and sobbed with longing,
and reminded me of my own passion.

I had been far away from my own soul so long, so late sleeping, but that dove's crying woke me and made me cry!

Praise to all early-waking grievers!"
.....................................
Some go first, and others come long afterword. God blesses both and all in the line, and replaces what has been consumed, and provides for those who work the soil of helpfulness, and blesses Muhammed and Jesus (Peace be upon them!), and every other messenger and prophet.

Amen, and may the Lord of all created
beings bless you.
.....................................

......from the Mathnawi by Jelaluddin Balkh /aka/ Rumi(which means "from Roman [Byzantine] Anatolia.)

Rumi was an Afghan (born 1207), from Balkh, Afghanistan, whose family fled the Mongol invaders and settled in Konya,Anatolia(now Turkey).

He represents the "other side" of Islam:The one that is deeply spiritual, philosophically profound, and worthy of the hightest regard and respect.

And even the "perfidious" Turks and Albanian Muslims have graced the world with holy saints and even more simple amd everyday people of outstanding character and human qualities.

"I am neither Christian,Jew, Zorastrian, nor Muslim; I am neither of the East nor the West, nor of the land nor of the sea."....."Putting aside duality, I have seen that this world and the next are one. I seek the One, I know the One, I see the One. I invoke the One. Allah is the First and the Last, the Outward and
the Inward."--Rumi.

Salaam

Bill

[ 11-14-2001: Message edited by: Psalm 46 ]

Sorry, folks, but I guess my Greek descent in the blood is reaching to my brain.

I don't buy this idea that Islamics are organically related to Christianity or Judaism. Like Harry Potter's images of 'spiritual' reality and forces, Islamis have taken ideas from both Judaism and Christianity to lay a cognitive foundation for their beliefs. (You can't start a religion in a vacuum.)

The 'theology' of Islam is rooted in a sense of domination by the 'leaders' of the faith-community. It is, after all: "submission". To "Allah" sure, but to the leaders who are mandated to enlarge the faith.

In my view, the links to Abraham, to Christ, to "Mariam", etc. are purely subterfuges to organically link Islam to historical reality and to provide a legitimation of their 'faith'. And then, to engage in a 'theological/historical' conquest of anybody who happens to be in their [commercial/economic] way. (I suspect that many religious Jews feel the same way about Christianity -- usurpers of their tradition. And sources of persecution.)

While as an American I am more than willing to accept Islamics in American society (and I would hope that our government would exercise a more balanced approach to the Palestinians instead of just knuckling under to Israeli policies), I do not accept the idea of an "Islamic Society" (a part of the Mohammedan 'world-view') since it, in itself, condemns any non-Isalmics to persecution and death. True Christianity does not allow for the persecution or execution of those not of the faith; Islam has a different view based upon its theological world-view, especially in places where they have the upper-hand. (Interestingly enough, in this regard, Judaism is closer to Islam in the sense that the "tribal" sense of identity and dominance are more pre-eminent than Christians would be comfortable with.) Israeli law permits the "return of Jews"; everybody else who want to live there: get in line and ask nice. There was an American Jew in Maryland who as being indicted for the murder and dismemberment of a drug-dealing buddy; he fled to Israel and claimed 'right of return'. He's still there more than 5 years later.

So, I'll accept Sam's offer of Uzis. Though I don't want to sink to the level of either group since Christ said "Forgive and turn the other cheek", I will still not "submit" as the Slamis would like.

I'll "love 'em" as Christ demanded of us, but I won't turn my back on them.

Blessings!

I've been told that in the context of Judaism, Chrisitianity is considered a heretical sect.
Is anyone familiar with the teaching?

If it is true, the discussion of Mormonism and Islam and their relationship with religion(s) in the regions in which they originate would seem to reflect an earlier attempt to explain a new religion in terms of another older religious community. Wonder if that's a pattern, and if so, what its ramifications are for us as Christians?

Just thinking aloud!

Steve

Joy!

Please do not allow the written expression impede the meaning or the love!

Christian-Muslim Dialogue

Msgr. Michael Fitzgerald

Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue

www.sedos.org/english/fitzgerald.htm

Inawe, we should note the difference in that Christianity came from within Judaism and its first adherents were Jews who recognized the fullfillment of the Old Testament in the Lord. Islam on the other hand originated in Arabia, in a region that harbored Jews, Arians, Nestorians, and those that were exiled to the East as punishment for heresy. Muhammad's travels as a merchant also added to his experience. This was a religion that sprang from one Arab man who had much opportunity to glean what he could from other religions and cultures. Islam did not originate from within a nation that followed whatever faith the new religion was supposed to build up on. There is no continuity as there is in the historical development of Christianity from within Judaism. In addition, the new religion rejected the Scriptures as corrupted, and Protestantism rejected Catholicism as a perversion of Christianity, while Christianity accepted the Old Covenant as its necessary precursor, and did not claim the Law was corrupted by the Jews but was preserved, unlike the Muslim claim that the Gospels and Torah are false fabrications of real Scripture.

In IC XC
Samer

Samer,

Thank you for your response. What you say is true, of course. Your point that Islam was founded for the most part by persons on the outside of Christianity and Judaism but using elements of both, is well taken. There are significant differences in the origins of these religions.

I think I remember hearing the idea that the Jewish People consider Christainity a heretical sect of Judaism around the time when the Pope visited the Synagogue in Rome. On that ocassion, If I'm not mistaken, the Chief Rabbi of Rome thanked the Pope for Christianity's role in spreading the knowledge of the One God. At least I think that I heard or read that.

Has anyone else heard this?

Thanks again.

Steve

JOY!

Please do not let the written expression impede the meaning or the love!

My understanding is that most religious Jews consider Christianity to be a 'knock-off' of Judaism, a group of folks who went way beyond what Judaism believes.

The fact that Christianity has spread far and wide has colored the perspective of many Jews who now consider it an alien faith, not really connected with Judaism as currently practiced.

I too read the comment of the Rabbi who proposed that Christianity has done much to foster belief in the "One God" that is the hallmark of the Jewish faith. (The touchstone prayer of a Jew is the Shamar Is-rael: "Shamar Israel, Adonai Elohenu, Adonai Echod" = "Hear, O Israel, the Lord is God; the Lord is One.") We Christians can utter the same prayer with full faith and conviction.

But I suspect strongly that the Rabbi was being an extremely polite host and was saying something that represented a core attitude that monotheists are united in their monotheistic beliefs. But it glossed over many very real and very important differences. But that's OK; civilized people do this sort of thing.

I guess that because Christianity is rooted in Jewish theology and beliefs, I am more prone to accept Jewish thought and perspectives than I am those that originate in Mohammed's writings and teachings.

It is clear that for contemporary world society to survive, all us human beings have to be civilized towards each other. No problem. But I just can't turn my back on Islam since I truly believe that their theology allows condemnation and persecution of all who are unwilling to submit themselves to Islam. And I'm not willing to submit to anybody except God.

Blessings!

Albania: Home of a kinder, gentler, and more tolerant Islam? Or home base for Islamic missionaries determined to convert Europeans?

Islam Builds a Future in Kosovo, One Mosque at a Time

Kosovo legally remains part of Yugoslavia. But the region's Muslim leaders are preparing for eventual independence
By Frank Brown  

PRISTINA, Yugoslavia, Sept. 12 (RNS)--Kosovo's Muslim leaders are tackling the enormous task of repairing nearly half the region's mosques damaged by war-- and educating an Islamic public largely ignorant of its faith.
If the leaders of Kosovo's overwhelmingly dominant faith succeed, they may well create what one religion expert here believes will be Europe's "second Muslim state" after neighboring Albania.
Indeed, Kosovo's Grand Mufti, Rexhep Boja, the Muslims' spiritual head who has carefully avoided politics, is adamant on one political question: whether Kosovo will someday be rejoined with predominantly Orthodox Serbia.
"The people will not accept it. I won't either," said Boja, 54, in an interview in his office at the Islamic Faculty here. "After what happened, we just cannot accept it."
Kosovo remains part of Serb-dominated Yugoslavia under the terms of the United Nations Security Council resolution that ended last year's NATO bombing and allowed for the return of more than 700,000 ethnic Albanian refugees to the province. In practice, U.N. administrators are in charge and ethnic Serbs are steadily fleeing Kosovo.
This autumn the Muslim community will appeal to U.N. administrators to allow the introduction of religious studies in primary schools across the province.
"We've been trying to get Islamic studies in the ordinary government schools, but so far with no success," said professor Qemajl Morina, vice dean of the Islamic Faculty. "They are afraid of religion in schools. They are afraid of what they will say in the West, of public opinion."
Aside from teaching Islam for the 70% of Kosovo's population who are Muslims, Morina believes students should be offered elementary instruction in the region's two main minority faiths, Eastern Orthodox Christianity and Roman Catholicism.
"By teaching children about each other's religion, we can create more tolerance," said Morina, 51, a voice of moderation within the Muslim community.

A broad-based Muslim revival in Kosovo could help invigorate the region's democratic institutions, which are still reeling from last year's war and 10 years of intense Serb discrimination before that. Andreas Szolgyemy, a Hungarian religion expert working in Pristina, said there is a "tremendous interest among the young" in Islam.
Szolgyemy is an adviser on religious affairs for the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, which is playing a major role in Kosovo's rebuilding. He said the impact of Islam in Kosovo will be determined largely by what sort of Islam is taught in the region's schools.
"If they want to teach the Wahhabi ideas, which is what I'm afraid they want to do, I don't think it will be so good," said Szolgyemy, referring to the fundamentalist, puritanical brand of Islam dominant in Saudi Arabia. "The Wahhabis are not so tolerant.... They forbid, for example, mixed marriages(which were common during the Tito years.) They treat women as second-rank citizens. They don't like dancing, the cinema, or television."

Of the 10 Islamic non-governmental organizations working in Kosovo today, the largest is the Saudi Joint Relief Committee. Saudi sponsors delivered 200,000 Albanian-Arabic Qur'ans to the province last October.
Such assistance is welcome by Mufti Boja, who studied Islam for 15 years in Medina, Saudi Arabia.
"We have a lot of work," Boja said, noting that 216 of Kosovo's 513 mosques were damaged in the years of conflict.

Based in mosques, Muslim clerics working throughout Kosovo will hasten the healing process, he said.
"We have imams in every village," said Boja. "They visit families and explain that according to the Qur'an they must forget the past and start again. Forget the past."


At the current rate of growth, Szolgyemy predicted that Kosovo will have an increasingly Muslim character.
"They would like to establish a second Muslim state in Europe. Albania will soon be one. And things are very open in Kosovo. It is nothing for Saudi Arabia to support Kosovo," he said.
Szolgyemy was quick to caution, however, that "maybe the main religion will be Islam but not the state religion. There are a lot of [Kosovar] Albanian Catholics, and I am 100% sure they would protest."

Backed by U.N. administrators, a ministry of religious affairs will likely open this autumn in Kosovo and be headed by a Muslim layman, said Szolgyemy. The ministry would be charged, in part, with monitoring and regulating non-traditional religious missionaries ranging from evangelical Protestants to radical Muslims.
Given Kosovo's total dependence on governments and public opinion in the West--where ignorance and fear often color reactions to Islam--Morina was careful to emphasize that Kosovo's Muslim leaders would remain independent and tolerant.
"We have made clear to all the Islamic organizations that we will accept their help but that we remain in control of the Islamic situation," said Morina, adding that Wahhabis are not especially influential. "Because we live in Europe and have other religious communities, we must be very tolerant toward them."
Like Szolgyemy, Morina said that even if Kosovo has an increasingly Muslim character it will have little impact on the political scene. Referring to U.N.-administered elections set for October, Morina said, "We have 29 political organizations in Kosovo and not one of them has come to visit us."


Historically, Albanians have identified themselves more by their ethnicity than their faith. ( The religion of Albanians is Albania!) However, that has not stopped the identification of religious symbols as ethnic symbols. Since more than 40,000 NATO-led troops entered Kosovo in June 1999, more than 80 Orthodox churches and monasteries have been desecrated. Today, most Orthodox religious sites are protected by soldiers.
"We are ashamed when we see the tanks in front of Orthodox churches because the Albanians have respected Orthodox churches for 500 years, even in places where Serbs don't live anymore," Morina said.
"I asked some people, 'Why are you destroying this Orthodox church?' They said, 'Because they destroyed our mosque.' It is not from religious feeling that they do these things. It is from revenge," Morina continued, as he took out several color photocopies of photos documenting Serb abuses.
The photos showed cases of Serb police torturing young Albanian men by scratching Orthodox crosses onto the victims' chests during the worst persecution of Kosovar Albanians in the late 1990s.


After fleeing his home in April 1999, Morina said he returned in the summer to find it looted with all his Arabic-language books destroyed.
"I had a big picture of grandfather on the wall. He was also an Islamic teacher. In the picture, he is wearing a turban, and they drew a cross over the turban," said Morina, chuckling wryly at the apparent futility of it.


 

[ 11-18-2001: Message edited by: Psalm 46 ]

Dear Friends,

I simply don't know if the parallel with the Mormons applies to Islam.

Mormonism claims to be the "true" understanding of the historical Church of Christ itself, the Trinity (in effect, tritheism) and the Incarnation (Christ produced by the "union" of God the Father with the Virgin Mary etc.) calling itself "Christian" and "Church" etc.

Islam borrowed from other religions to be sure, but is not a "remake" of any of them.

Our view of Islam is currently highly coloured by the recent terrorist events, including the historical experiences with Islamic peoples that our respective ethnic groups have had.

The secular media has always strongly suggested that the way for the Arabic and other traditionally Muslim countries to go is to become "secular" and discard, in accordance with secular ideology, Islam (by way of implication, any religion).

Muhammad's view of Christianity was not influenced by his contacts with Arianism (effectively dead at his time in history) nor Nestorianism, but with Oriental Orthodoxy.

He actually praised the Ethiopian Orthodox Christians very highly and warned his followers to leave Abyssinia alone.

His teaching actually brought his formerly pagan followers closer to Judaism and Christianity, without getting into the points of divergence.

Christians too have had their terrorists who used the Gospel to justify mass slaughter throughout history, and we know who they were.

We are called to live the Gospel, as Dr. John frequently reminds us, "prayer and service."

It is in the embrace of that love that Christ is to be found.

Christ's love is to be reflected by Christians.

If anyone doesn't recognize Christ, it is because he or she has yet to feel His love embodied in His followers.

Or as I see it, anyway . . .

Alex

Alex,
I think the parallel does apply because Islam makes the claim to be the "true" understanding of the historical God of Abraham. It claims that Jesus was one of its Prophets while denying his Divinity. It claims that the Bible foretells the coming of Muhammad.

As for it borrowing from other religions, if this is true (which I think it is) then it is a man made religion and they do not worship the same God as Christianity and should we endeavor for a dialogue with it?


Your brother in Christ,
David

[ 11-19-2001: Message edited by: DavidB ]

Dear David,

Yes and no.

What Islam is about is something that all other religions are about to a certain extent as well.

Islam doesn't say it is a "Christian" denomination and the only true one as does Mormonism vis a vis Christianity.

Islam doesn't worship Christ as does Mormonism, even though it doesn't accept that Christ's Divinity is equal to that of the Father (This makes Mormonism a form of Arianism, in fact.)

We assume that because Muhammad didn't accept Christ as God, that he was influenced by Arianism.

Nothing could be further from the actual case, however.

He had no contact with Arians. If he had somehow adopted their Christology, then he would have worshipped Christ as being, as the Arians held, "more than man, but less than God."

Muhammad totally rejected this, although he did ascribe veneration to Christ and His Mother as prophets.

Right now, so many of us are equating Islam as containing terrorist imperatives that we can't really think objectively about it. We should therefore leave it alone, for now.

Previous fruits of Christian-Muslim dialogue have been positive, with even Muslim philosophers affirming that the best form of union between God and man would be, philosophically, "Incarnation."

I have seen this statement contained in Muslim prayerbooks and religious texts.

We have a role to play in helping Muslims come to realize respect for religious pluralism.

After all, Christians have been intolerant of other religions for centuries, and most of us have snapped out of it eventually.

We therefore have something to bring to any Christian-Muslim discussion table.

Alex

It is an unsettling and nightmarish thought, but is it possible that the many Orthodox and Catholic Balkan Christians who converted to Islam out of conviction, were right?

Dear Psalm 46,

Regrettably, the conversions to Islam as you state were really done for material reasons, rather than spiritual ones.

In Africa, for example, Christians were treated as second-class citizens throughout.

For example, if you were a Christian living in a Muslim society there, you wore a five-pound wooden Cross around your neck. You were obliged to ride your donkey backwards. You wore bells on your clothes to warn the Muslims in the marketplace that a Christian was coming. (The source of the saying, "I'll be there with bells on.") Then there was the discrepancy in tax rates . . .

Were they right? Only insofar as they didn't want to be martyrs or else treated as second-class citizens.

The New Martyrs of Greece and elsewhere witnessed to their Faith.

The rest of us do our best, I suppose.

Alex

A most curious quote:

A broad-based Muslim revival in Kosovo could help invigorate the region's democratic institutions

Can anyone name a democratic Muslim state?

Dan Lauffer

Albania is the only one I can think of. But I have no interest in Islam outside of the Balkans, and especially Albania, so I might be mistaken.


On the other hand, it does seem that at least some of the Islamic Central Asian Republics, though majority Muslim, are trying very hard to be tolerant of minority populations and control Muslim extremists. I believe some of the Russian Autonomous Islamic Republics are also trying to develop in that direction. But do these nations fit the Western definition of democracies? I don't believe so.


Bill

[ 11-19-2001: Message edited by: Psalm 46 ]

Dear Alex,

In all fairness, many Balkan Christians ( Slovens, Albanians-Illyrians, Croats, Serbs, Bosnians, Greeks, Bulgarians, Catholics, Orthodox, Bogomils and others), were ripe for conversion, and not just out of fear or for opportunistic reasons.

Many were alienated from Christianity ( for a variety of reasons) and the message of Islam, for them, was "good news." I believe we must, at least, admire their convictions even if we cannot approve of their decision. And it is only fair to mention that, in the Balkans, Sufi Islamic missionaries sometimes preceded the Ottoman armies and were warmly welcomed by the Christian inhabitants who were impressed with the deep spirituality, holiness, and generosity of the missionaries.

In many ways Balkan Christianity, both Catholic and Orthodox, failed the common, rural people and left a spiritual void in the hearts of many true seekers; a void that was filled by Islam.

Sincerely,

Bill

Dear Bill,

There is no doubt that alienation from mainstream Christianity is what produces candidates for conversion to other religions.

The same is happening in the former Soviet Union right now.

Jewish missionaries in the seventeenth century in Russia made inroads not only among those who were alienated from Orthodoxy, but also among Orthodox bishops and priests!

Higher clergy actually converted to the sect of the Judaizers who broke icons and returned to many Jewish practices.

Their influence reached even as high as the Tsars.

An Orthodox synod condemned this group as heretical and excommunicated all those clergy who belonged to it.

Not only those who are disaffected with Christianity join other faiths. They do so for a myriad of reasons.

But in the Balkans and elsewhere under Islamic rule, to become a Muslim was to enhance one's life chances in those societies.

For many, religion simply does not mean much one way or another. When faced with the prospect of the discrimination and even martyrdom under Islamic rule, they decided to convert.

Even if what you say is true, which I believe it is, there is no real way to discover to what extent it held sway over the minds and hearts of the people of the Balkans given the harsh persecutions of the Islamic regime there.

But I have met former Orthodox seminarians who are now Muslims.

The chief advisor to President Bush on Islam is a Muslim convert from Greek Orthodoxy who was destined for the Orthodox priesthood.

Alienated? If candidates to the priesthood can be alienated from Christianity, then I suppose so.

Alex

Alex,

And can we forget that Cat Stevens (a/k/a Yusuf Islam) is the son of a Greek Catholic father from Alexandria and a mother who is a Jew from Sweden!

Maybe he came to the conclusion that Islam was a good compromise for him?
(Just being sarcastic.)

There is an Islamic teacher in the Orlando area who is a former Franciscan friar of Irish descent and we have Tosks, (or is it
Ghegs?), Albanian Catholics, in our area who seem to have no reservations about allowing their daughters to convert to Islam and marry Albanian Muslims. And what about Arafat's wife, a Catholic convert to Islam? You don't think her conversion might have had something to do with her marriage to hubby Yassir, 'do ya?'

You just never know what truly moves people and why.

Bill

[ 11-20-2001: Message edited by: Psalm 46 ]

Dear Bill,

You are absolutely right.

No sir, I don't know why Nassir's wife converted, although I could venture a guess.

The rather vituperant nature of Islamic states toward other faiths makes even religious sharing a problematic issue.

Many New Martyrs of Orthodoxy were done to death not as a result of having a loud philosophic disagreement with Islam, or for even decrying the Prophet (peace be upon him).

They were killed because they happened to have a dhikr or Muslim prayer beads, or happened to sing a version of the Muslim prayer of the 99 Names of God or some such other matter which meant, before the Islamic courts at least, that they were now Muslim, so why did they continue to go to Church and wear the Cross?

To become a Muslim, one need only recite the creed in one God and prophet, as I understand, so once someone said you were a Muslim, it was next to impossible to prove you weren't.

And if you persisted in saying you weren't, then this was assumed to be blasphemy, worthy of the death penalty, absolved of only if one formally clung to Islam.

This was how the Orthodox St George of Ioannina was martyred and a host of others, as you know.

Also, Muslims tend to join with Christians on Christian holidays in many countries. Many Christian saints are honoured by the Muslims as well and they see no conflict if they attend the services and the pilgrimages.

The Montenegrin Orthodox Saint Vasili Ostrozhky's Shrine is regularly visited by Muslims, for example, and they do experience miraculous healings, as happens at other Christian shrines.

There are places in India where Christians also gather for celebrations of venerated Sufi and other holy people of other religions.

This was so strong in Ethiopia, that this Church adopted a number of Islamic traditions, including the veneration of Nabi Iskander or Alexander the Great, the Prophet.

I like that devotion . . .

Alex(ander)

I'd never heard that Yusuf Islam — whose music as Cat Stevens I like very much, whose sincerity I don't doubt and who has my respect even though technically he is an apostate (his criticisms of the West and of secularism can sound authentically Orthodox) — had a Greek Catholic father and Jewish mother. I'd heard on TV before his most recent rare interview in that medium that he (born Stephen Georgiou in London) left at least nominal Orthodox affiliation for Islam. (Maybe they just assumed that because he is Greek.) Like the Sufis Psalm 46 describes, Mr Islam has a gentle presence.

The Bosnians, Slavs just like the Serbs and Croats (the three really are the same ethnic group with, I believe, the same language), once were Bogomils, neither Catholic nor Orthodox but followers of a medieval, local version of Manichaeanism (dualism, like the Albigensians in early medieval France). They both had no great love for the Christianity of their neighbors and sometime rulers and Islam resonated a lot with the faith they already had. So they enthusiastically converted and are Muslims to this day. That this also gave them favored status among the Ottomans' subject peoples is unquestioned.

The Albanians, not Slavs, were at least nominally Orthodox in the Middle Ages under Constantinople's rule. Was their mass conversion to Islam out of conviction, coercion or opportunism? I don't know.

http://oldworldrus.com

[ 11-20-2001: Message edited by: Serge ]

Dear Serge,

Happy St Michael's day (Old Calendar) tomorrow!

Owing to the great pressures to convert in an Islamic state, we never will know whether people did out of real conviction or out of fear.

However, that is not to say that Islam does not have aspects to it that are attractive to people in search of a faith.

When I was doing my doctorate, I came across scholars who said that St Vladimir himself had, at one time, been a Muslim (?) before receiving Christianity.

The Islamic message is clear, simple and forceful. Its five pillars are "doable" religious things as are its religious symbols.

There is a tremendous emphasis on community and its role in determining personal behaviour which can be attractive to many.

There is a syncretistic side to Islam since it borrows from both Judaism and Christianity. Its view that it is the fulfillment of both lends a certain air of universality to it.

The Muslim advisor to President Bush who is the convert from Orthodoxy once gave an interview and said he had a near death experience at which point he began reading the Quran and then decided to convert.

Is the message hear that if one has a near death experience one should always be near a Bible and no other text?

My Muslim friends in university gave me a prayer rug which I said I would use in making prostrations before my icons. They smiled. They gave me the 99 bead Muslim rosary which I told them I'd use in saying the Jesus Prayer. They smiled.

No matter what they gave me, I incorporated into my personal Christian prayer life. And they kept smiling.

One day, I told them I believed in Allah. And that Allah and Jesus are one and the same Person.

They stopped smiling ...

Salaam Alekum,

Iskander Al-Khabir (Alexander the big guy)

According to one web site, Yusuf Islam is the son of a father of Cypriot Greek Catholic descent from Alexandria, Egypt, and a mother of Jewish descent who evidently is from Sweden, of all places. But some Jews did find asylum in Sweden both before, during, and after WWII, so I have no reasons to doubt her origins.

You are exactly right about the Bosnian Slavs and their Bogomil history. They certainly must have been "ripe for the picking," since they became fanatical Islamists after the Turkish occupation and were never hesitant about answering the Sultans' calls to jihad.


Albanian Christians, I believe, are evenly divided into Catholics and Orthodox, with Catholics predominating in the north and Orthodox to the south of the country. I do not know if the northern Albanian tribes were ever "Byzantinized" but they eventually became Catholics of the Latin rite, I believe.

"Cat" seems to have lost his gentleness during the "Satanic Verses," episode and actually supported the fatwah issued against Salman Rushdie which was essentially a death warrant.

Bill

I think there is a fair amount of historical research that indicates that the Ottomans specifically targeted Albania as a place for proselytism for strategic reasons, given Albania's location and the geostrategic realities of the Adriatic region at the time. Albania was supposed to be the buffer of "loyal" Islam between (more or less) the unrealiable Greeks and Serbs. This understanding is, of course, hotly debated by nationalist Albanian historians, and there is a lot of academic fighting going on now between the proponents of various theories. It's a very emotional issue.

OTOH, the historical evidence seems to indicate that the Islamicisation of Bosnia happened more, shall we say, "naturally" and not by specific Ottoman design. Having said that, the Ottomans did colonize Bosnia more aggresively than elsewhere due to the resource deposits in the area, and particularly the silver mines at Srebrenica. The "Bogomil" theory is interesting, but it's been rather well critiqued -- Noel Malcolm's "Bosnia" A Short History" devotes a chapter to the arguments for and against that theory, and finds the "for" arguments less than completely convincing. Nevertheless, it is true that Bosnia became peculiarly Islamic at a relatively early stage of the Ottoman period -- probably due to a convergence of opportunism, confusion and other factors.

Brendan

Islam, etc., by Yusuf Islam

www.commondreams.org/views01/0924-09.htm

Web site:

www.catstevens.com

Sometimes the English refer to Greek Orthodox as Greek Catholics. Maybe this is the source of the confusion?

It seems unlikely that there are many Byzantine Catholics of Cypriot descent. On the other hand, there is a Latin-rite community of Catholic Greeks in Cyprus. Maybe that accounts for the confusion.

Actually, this is not a very important issue.

Dear Psalm 46,

Is this Psalm 46 according to the Seventy . . .?

You raise the interesting situation on Cyprus.

On that island, there is an Orthodox cult in honour of a slain Crusader who died fighting the Turks and who is honoured there as a New Martyr. He is St John of Cyprus.

St John was a Roman Catholic, however, but his cult as a saint is unknown in the RC Church.

Another reason why the study of saints is so fascinating . . .

Alex

Alex,

I am of that generation of American Greek Orthodox that was raised with one, and only one, English language Bible:The King James.


I am a James-ite!

"God is our refuge and strength..."

Bill

Not sure, luv.

Among the ethnics, one holds to the values of those who hold with us. An RC crusader who is venerated by the Greek Orthodox for being against the Ottomans? Yeah, what's the problem?

In my family's history ( grab an espresso or a double-double Scotch), ancient uncles of mine killed off two Ottoman Muslims who attacked our family in the islands. As a result, they fled to the mountains of Arkadia in the Pelopenese. We've been there since 1400 (we have the Church records of this).

How can one expect us to deny our family history and just dismiss the Ottomans as just another blip in the history of Europe? Sorry. We can accept them n the U.S., but in the old country, we continue to realize that the Mohammedans would either kill or enslave us given the easiest opportunity. And Greek-Americans are NOT willing to roll over and play dead vis-a-vis the Islamic imperialism in the Near East.

Now, the question is: if the Greeks assert themselves against the Islamic hegemony, and fight against the Mohammedan slavery, will the Western Christian church arise to the defense of Greek Christianity, or will it subvert itself to the political machinations of the Western world and abandon their Christian brethren in the non-Western world?

So, I want to buy automated weapons for our Near Eastern Christian and Greek Christian brethren so that they can fight against the forces of Islamic assimilation

Where do I go in Northern Virginia to get both weapons and automated weapons training?

Blessings!

Dear Dr. John,

Very well put and you certainly hit more than one nail on the head.

Your family history is thrilling. I wonder if my ancestor who also fought the Turks in the fifteenth century (Auguste Yablonowskie) may have come across your family members? It sounds like they would have had much in common - a dislike for the Ottomans (although they may have found Sofas acceptable . . .).

Not only RC Crusaders have found their way into the local saints' calendars of Greece, but also Ukrainian Kozaks who died trying to liberate Orthodox Christians from slavery.

I've come across: St Pachomius "O Rossos" the Kozak venerated on Patmos; St Ioannis "O Rossos" the Kozak of New Procopion; St Paul and some others.

Their cult originated in Greece and their veneration was unheard of for a long time in their native Slavic lands.

A similar thing happened with St Gregory V the Patriarch of Constantinople who was hanged by the Turks over the entrance doors of his residence (which are never closed in respect to this day).

Ukrainian sailors found his body floating in the Black Sea and brought him to Odessa where his body was positively identified as that of the Patriarch.

His cult began there locally, although he was canonized by the Church of Greece and his Relics were returned to Athens.

Last year, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church formally placed him in their calendar for liturgical veneration.

As for weapons training, I thought you could get that anywhere in your Grand Republic . . . A carry-over from that temper tantrum you people call the "American Revolution." (And a royalist 'hee-hee' to you too!)

God bless, Dr. John, Mentor in Christ!

Alex

Dear Bill,

I like the King James too!

If it was good enough for St Paul the Apostle, it's good enough for me!

I once wrote a little speech for a politician I worked with for a prayer breakfast he was attending.

I used the Revised Standard Version for the biblical quote that was included.

There were about 500 people at this event. When my legislator read out the quote, I saw many, many heads turn and whispering occur to the effect, "Ohhh, he's not using the King James, how dare he!"

Who says Protestants don't believe in infallibility?

P.S. What is "Bill" in Greek?

Alex

Well...you can call me Bill, or you can call me Basil, or you can call me Vasilios, but Mother of God, don't call me "Turkos."

Bill...er...whatever.

[ 11-21-2001: Message edited by: Psalm 46 ]

Dear Bill,

Interesting!

I had a friend in school who also called himself Bill in English, although in Ukrainian he was "Basil."

My nephew is "Vladimir" but he calls himself "Bill" too.

May I call you "Basil?"

I suppose this happens when people try to fit the Anglo-Conformity "bill."

I like Alexander. I think it's, well, Great . . .

Since his name in Greek would be "Megas Alexandros," you can call me "Gus" I suppose . . . on second thought, "Oxi."

Elantheria Athanatos!

Alex

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
[QB]Dear Bill,

No sir, I don't know why Nassir's wife converted, although I could venture a guess.


Asalam alikum bi ism Yasou Al-Maseeh,
Peace Be Upon You in the Name Of Jesus Christ,

I am back again and it is so nice to see everyone again. Yasir Arafat's wife converted to Islam only for politically reasons but deep down inside she is one of us (Orthodox). She did it for the sake of her husband.

Pray that we do not continue losing our people to this spiritual life-poisoning religion called Islam. Remember, love them and pray to the Holy Spirit to convert them.

My nephew is "Vladimir" but he calls himself "Bill" too.

Vladimir is Walter.

I suppose this happens when people try to fit the Anglo-Conformity "bill."

My Ruthenian former girlfriend's family has a lot of repeating first names in its history. Vasily became Charles on coming to America. But for other people I've seen it used as an Orthodox name for William.

True Ellis Island instant name change: Grigory Szymczuk became Harry Simpson.

I understand among Greeks in America, Guses are often Constantines.

http://oldworldrus.com

[ 11-21-2001: Message edited by: Serge ]

Dear Serge,

Right you are, and until recently, I thought "Gus" came from "Megas Konstantinos" (hee-hee).

I once came across a fellow named "Guy" but who, in Russian, was "Sergey."

I guess different rules apply to the transliteration.

"Vladimir" for me in Russian or Ukrainian is "Vladimir" in English. "Waldemar" is the Scandinavian rendering and "Walter" the English.

My favourite is "Theodore." In Hebrew, this is "Matthew," in Latin, "Adeodatus" or "Deusdedit," in German, "Gottfried" or the Saxon "Godfrey" and in English "Geoffrey."

In my nephew's (or brother's) case, he wanted him to have an ethnic sounding name in Ukrainian, but a completely English name in English.

This also belongs to the issue of names in Orthodox missionary lands such as China and Japan where Russian names like "Tatiana" and "Mitrophanes" are represented among the New Martyrs.

St Vladimir's Christian name was "Basil" was it not? And Sts. Boris and Gleb/Hlib "Roman and David?"

It was a matter of time before the old pagan names were appropriated by Byzantine Christianity.

Happily, there are plenty of St Alexanders to go around, even including a veneration of the ancient conqueror in some parts of Alexandrian Christianity in Africa.

Alex

Dear Rum Orthodox,

Love that title, just love it!!

Some years back, we had some Russian soldiers as part of a Russian delegation here who had been POW's in Afghanistan.

They had converted to Islam while in captivity and were returning to Orthodox Christianity.

Whether they were still Orthodox inside or not, does not the Orthodox Church re-Chrismate those who commit acts of formal apostasy in this way?

How is this Mystery understood differently from Catholicism i.e. in the sense that it can be repeated?

Alex

Ya meet hala, bi sheikh esh shuyookh,
Tahi'yeh ilar rumee il batal ash sha'ir al qadeer,
al mu'allem Robert afandi....ya fakhril Ortodoxi'yah

Shoo, wain'nak ma rad'deit ala risaaltee? Akhi, ma feesh anthrax fil e-mail, walai him'mak.

Robert, ol' boy, Madame Arafat had no reason to apostate from the Faith (wheter in her heart or through confession makes no difference) and embrace her husband's. Every Palestinian who leaves Christianity counts as we shrink down to the brink of implosion. I pray she returns to her Orthodox Church before we have to send Batrak Eirenios with a 'assa after her. :-)

But, to her credit, at least she didn't become a blabbering apologist armed to the teeth with pious platitudes like Her Highness Queen Noor.

In IC XC
Samer

[ 11-21-2001: Message edited by: SamB ]

http://www.anusha.com/suha.htm

Keep your speakers on while reading this page. The music suits the title of the article well. Humorous.

In IC XC
Samer

[ 11-21-2001: Message edited by: SamB ]

Dear Samer,

Perhaps, that's Queen Noor's business.

I do think she has been a voice of reason in a region where reason is at a premium.

She is a true lady and a true Queen. The rest is between her and God.

I am a monarchist you know . . .

Salaam Alekum,

Alex

Alex my friend,

Don't get me wrong.

Over 10 years in the most tyrannical absolute monarchy on earth (I do like Fahad's style in clothes though), but I remain the crazy monarchist I've always been :-) It's my Jordanian mother's adoration for King Hussein, you see. When I was very young, my sister and I used to have Assad/Hussein fights. I only supported the former of those two monarchs ;-) I later converted, needless to say.

Later on, I found myself praying for His Majesty Hussein's deathbed conversion just shortly before his death. My father suggests he was a Mason though....(hmmmmm)

Now Her Majesty was indeed a true queen and most certainly a lady of grace (the regal kind), and she cleared up some of the ignorance of people who thought honor killings were a Muslim anomaly. I admired her most certainly. But the constant "I am a Muslim" and most of what she said about Islam that downplayed our painful history over there, compounded by the fact that she is one of our own (Arabic Christian) which gives more credence to what she says...well, eventually that starts to get to an overzealous, Saudi dwelling, cross-wearing individual such as myself.

Well, of course I can't judge Her Majesty's state of heart, despite her inexcusable conversion, but we can't help feeling down.....

We have another Christian, singer Najwa Karam. She not only converted and married a Muslim (and keep in mind Christian women married to Muslims are not compelled to convert). She became his second wife in a polygamous union.

In IC XC
Samer

Going back a bit, the Konstantinos/Gus thing really rang a bell with me.

My grandfather, may he rest in peace, came to this country at the age of 14 (yes, he was illegal). Coming through Ellis Island, he was asked his name. He said "Konstantinos". The Anglo officer had no idea and wrote down "Gustavus", thereby transforming a Greek into a Swede.

And for the rest of his American life, my papou was known as Gus. As a little kid, I had no idea why everybody (American) called him "Gus" -- it wasn't a Greek name. Now I know.

Blessings (especially to the memories of our ancestors)!

Samer,
kaf haluk ya 'ainyee, ya habeeb il-sha'ub? Inshallah inta wa ahluk mubsuiteen. Ana mutasif lash ma arrsiltuk reesala. Ala kul hal, kul 'am wa intum bekhar.

Tell me something, what do you think as Christians we should be doing in terms of being proactive in the Islamic communities without rousing hostilities? We already know that we are to love them. However, how do we implement a proactive love without them becoming hostile especially in dialogue about the Christian truths? I know from experience they become at times agitated when I bluntly tell them Muhammed is surrag il-baeth(I'm just joking). I have been told to be careful of what I say because it might later percussions on the Arab Christians in the Middle East and/or here in good-old USA.
My mission is simple: the dismantaling of Islam and revealing it as a false religion of life without fostering hatred towards the Muslims. Many non-Muslims may misinterpret my perspective especially Western Christians and ignite the cycle of hatred towards Muslims. One has to wear two hats anytime one speaks about Islam to non-practicing or non-believing Christians and practicing & knowledgable Christians. Telling a non-practicing, non-knowledgeable Christian about certain aspect of Islam being false can be turned into a weapon of hatred towards Muslims. I recall telling my Roman Catholic friends to not denigrate the veils that Muslim women wear and that their nuns wear them as did the Lady Theotokos. The veils have been labeled as diapers on the head of any women. Do you see what I have to put up with?! Not do I only have to battle with the Islamic religion but also with rude, ignorant & intolerant people of the West. One gets the feeling that an Arab Christian as myself cant do good either in the East or the West. But I will keep on fighting as Scripture admonishes us to do.

2 Timothy 4:7
"I have fought the good fight, I have finished the race, I have kept the faith."

YES!!!!

Ya akhi, Allah bas iynaj'jeena min il-gharbee ij'jaahil .

Counseling both East and West, constantly sandwiched between both sides, is so frustrating, one can't find the time to counsel himself.

Muslims on Christianity here, Westerners on Eastern culture over there.



You have my most hearfelt sympathies. Life ain't easy, Robert. Not in this part of the world either.

As for what we can do about Muslims. I leave any suggestions concerning the situation of the American Arabic communities up to you in this case. You have the experience. Over here, I've got Muslim/leftist crossovers (an Albanian combination) taking over Concordia. Come on over. I'm ready to commence with the dismantling. Bring a blowtorch along.

Seriously though, I don't know. How effecient do you think we can be in the West? We need not worry about persecution in the matter of proselytizing, but over here our cultural clanish instincts take over and we may very well band together, Muslim and Christian, with a fortress mentality. Especially when you're amongst a bunch of fresh 1st generation immigrants. How do you go about engaging in something that has become unthinkable to both religions in the region, at least amongst friends? I can only guess what the reaction of these folks may be if we try to convert them through religious discussion. (We've become so used to evangelizing through Christian example only) I think Americanized and secular, 2nd, 3rd generation immigrants may be more easily
responsive. But I'm thinking about these secular yet religious (pious modernists?) fully Arab Muslims of the 1st generation and of the kind you'd have made friends back in childhood. How in the world do you get about opening the eyes of these people in particular? Well, what do you think?

In IC XC
Samer

Some Christians continue to speak of open dialogue with Islam while Muslim missionary groups make inroads into Christendom and convert thousands.

Would anyone like to "guesstimate" the ratio of Christian conversions to Islam as compared to Muslim conversions to Christianity? We are losing!

Please study the following Islamic missionary web site.


www.aaiil.org/text/join/mainjoin/.shtml

[ 11-23-2001: Message edited by: Psalm 46 ]

Deleted by 46

[ 11-23-2001: Message edited by: Psalm 46 ]

Dear Psalm 46,

Speaking from a sociological perspective, I think Eastern Christianity is ideally suited to respond to the religious and other needs that religions like Islam appear to be doing for certain Western folk.

The point of the matter is that ritual expression of worship will always have a premium with people and those religions that have it in abundance will do well in the West.

Ritual builds up community, it is the quintessential expression of common values through celebrated actions done together. It connotes different mystical and transcendent ideas.

Eastern Christianity really is the best kept secret in North America for these and other reasons.

"Faith alone" just doesn't do it for people since we are composed of both spirit AND matter.

Eastern Christians not only preach Christ, but do it from within their own unique and spiritually attractive religious culture.

As we can see from the site you have presented, Muslims have rituals for entering and leaving a home, and others that ritually punctuate the day and all their lives.

We do too, it is just that we can get lazy about it . . .

Muslims pray five times a day ideally. Christians are called to praise the Lord within seven watches during the day and night.

If we live our Christian lives in a radical way, we will do a lot to respond to the spiritual needs of people who are starved not only for spirituality, but for asceticism, ritual and faith commitment lived in community.

God bless,

Alex

Good day Psalm 46,
The Ahmadiyaas are the most prejudice group of Muslims if not outright anti-Christian in the Islamic world. Maybe this partially explains the reaction of Pakis in Pakistan towards America. At any rate, the Muslims love to wag their tails when it comes to Christians converting over to their territory. Believe it or not many of the Orthodox and Catholic Churches do not advertise Muslims become Christians. While some Protestants love to make it known like on this link http://www.arabicbible.com/testimonies/testimonial.htm
Unfortunately, this group seeks to convert Arab Christians of Orthodox or Catholic backgrounds.

The primary reason we don't advertise is for the protection of the converts from Islam. Apostasy can be a sure path to ones death or life-threats within the world mentality of Islam. Do not listen to those moderate Muslims who constantly bombard the audience that Islam is a religion of peace. I have a problem with any Orthodox or Catholic, hiearch or laity, that defends Islam. Islam is a religion of peace only when it is in control and one is in submission. At any rate, rest assured that we are quietly and slowly attracting Muslims in the U.S., Indonesia, parts of the Middle East, Africa, etc.
Please refer to this link for missionary work by the Orthodox http://www.ocmc.org/
I wonder if there is an equivalent Catholic link?!

Greetings,
I just discovered that the Barbie doll has converted to Islam!

http://www.islamicgarden.com/article1018.html

I don't know if she willingly or was forcefully made to read the Islamic confession. I bet she didn't have a choice but I could be wrong. Poor doll doesn't have the right to say if she wants to wear the hijab(veil). I don't know what's next but my guess is Ken will be wearing the dishdasha(one piece clothing) and the turban and be forced to have a beard. Then Ken will have to change his name to Khalid. I wonder if Khalid will allow Barbie to drive a vehicle.
Everybody stop! I am just joking but you know what this is what is happening. LOL
The link above just caught my attention and I wonder how many other toys will be converted to Islam. Why don't we open another thread to discuss rescuing these toys? LOL

The Islamic Garden---a Sunni site---sponsored by "elegant Wine and Champagne gifts?"



I don't believe the Prophet would be pleased!

Bill

Rum,

Why don't we open another thread to discuss rescuing these toys?

Perhaps an even better idea is to rescue the predominant form of Barbie from her present immodesty ourselves. The one good thing I see about Islam is that they do promote modesty. Can you see the Cherubim and Seraphim painted with outstretched wings?

Let us create a Barbie who wears a veil (scarf) for modesty and stop conforming to the immodesty of this world.

Dan Lauffer

Hi Dan,
You are right. The the orginal Barbie which I call grandma Barbie would be ashamed of her promiscuous modern-day grand-daughter Barbie.

Hi Psalm 46,
I thinkth the sponsor "Elegant Wine and Champagne gifts" is kind of odd and hilarious on an Islamic site. It doesn't strike me odd because most of the Muslims in the Middle East and here love to drink especially during Ramadan. I wont forget being in Jordan in 1993 that a liquor store owner once told me that his biggest customers were Muslims and not Christians and this was during Ramadan. If the Muslims returned to being Muslims then that store owner would suffer financially. This is good business as well as economics.

One can only imagine how many kegs in the tons lie underneath the good King Fahad's palaces. It must get pretty noisy and outrageously festive over there during Ramadan. The King probably has regiments of guards test-taste the ale, wine, what-have-you. It reminds me of a scene in an Asterix film where Roman legionaries looking for the barrel of "magic potion" sample every barrel until their strict procedural discipline deteriorates into drunken revelry. That scene always cracks me up.

Robert, any Barbie that decides to grace the Middle East will not end up in some hijab (Ken with a Kuf'fiyeh and 'gal sounds delightfully comical) or abayeh, whether the hideous enveloping kind or the gracefully feminine one that is ideal for seducing men with those Bedouin eyes that drove poets of old crazy.

No, I figure she will rather end up as some voluptious Egytian dancer (the first one with her miniscule measurements) cooing, "Ya kat-kooti, wahashtani awee". :-) Anyways if Mattel wishes to make dolls that are supposed to represent women who make hearts throb, their Middle Eastern branches should start with Um Kulthum dolls. Allah!

Robert, do you suppose and hope that ar'Rahman ur'Raheem has embraced this true and genuine (and modest) lady and offered her a sweet repose in Him? To borrow from our Eastern theology on the eternal bonds of marriage that surpass death, it would be nice to imagine her greeting wedded couples in the Firdaws with an encore.

Then again, it will be nice having the marvelous lady Fairuz amongst the celestial choir.

In IC XC
Samer

Hi Samer.
Could you imagine the high volume of toy sales if the Muslims promoted 72 virgin Barbie dolls as incentive gifts for good deeds to enter paradise? I don't think these dolls would be covered since their Hadiths glamorize houris.
I think Dan Lauffer could be wrong in this situation. Who says that the modern-day Barbie doll is immodest when Muslims expect this in their paradise?

Many thanks to the Arabs here for giving me a picture of life in the Middle East.

Who says that the modern-day Barbie doll is immodest when Muslims expect this in their paradise?

To this healthy man it sounds like serious competition for the power trip of the good Mormon man's afterlife, with your very own planet of people worshipping you as their god. (Imagine a world that worships Donny Osmond in church.) But in that scenario you and your wife are continually begetting spirit children to populate that world.

http://oldworldrus.com

This sounds like a game of Populous, to the literate in PC gaming amongst us. To really see what a Mormon's demigod status would be like, try the not very recent release, Black & White.

Then again don't. This kind of stuff is much too addictive.

Robert, don't forget the copious amounts of fine drink as well. It is quite tempting really--to spend eternity in a life similiar to one on Mt. Olympus, on the condition you abstain from much of it during life on Earth. However the denizens of Olympus and Athos don't make very good neighbors. I'm afraid we'll have to forgo the heavenly Islamic carnival and the strolling through the celestial Suq il Hamadieh with its delights, and instead chant isons for all eternity.

However, St. Vladimir wasn't going to abstain from drink for all the vodka in the afterlife, if a typical Russian encounter with Muslim missionaries has anything to say. Da, it may very well be true that the Slavic love for drink saved Russia from Islam.

In IC XC
Samer

One time a Pakistani told me that receiving 72 virgins is an incentive for doing good and getting in paradise. I replied, "Well, what happens to your wife and daughter?" At first he paused for a minute and said, "I don't like to think about these things." I was caught off guard by his selfishness and when he referred to his women as "things"(or maybe his frightening idea of his women being in paradise with him). At any rate, then I said to him, "Why don't your good, pious women get 72 virgin young men as their incentive for getting into paradise?" He said, "Oh no that was only writen for us." He did say that the women's reward was to look young and sexy again. I stopped there because I was tempted to ask him "for whom?" But I didn't want to piss him off.

Also, I think Muhammed may have been the first person to come up with the idea of non-alcoholic wine since he had it reserved in paradise. I wonder what good is non-alcoholic wine? Perhaps for someone recovering from AA's program. I once told my non-practicing & drinking Muslim friend that Muhammed probably had some good drinks with his buddies like we were having at the time. Boy, my drinking buddy felt a little insulted. I told him to relax and to have another drink. These people are strange at times!

"Millions of modern people of the white civilization-that is, the civilization of Europe and America-have forgotten all about Islam. They
have never come in contact with it. They take for granted that it is decaying, and that, anyway, it is just a foreign religion which will not concern them. It is, as a fact, the most formidable and persistent enemy which our civilization has had, and may at any moment become as large a menace in the future as it has been in the past."
~ Hillaire Belloc

http://www.ewtn.com/library/homelibr/heresy4.txt

In the Name of God, the Beneficent and the Merciful.

Peace.

Just as there exist many varieties of Christians, and many points of view among Christians, the same can be said of Islam.

I believe Pope John Paul II realizes this, since he is personally involved with Muslims in doing the will of God within His creation and among His children: the Divine work of manifesting the original unity of mankind and religions through good works of compassion, love, and peacemaking.

In his hospitality, His Holiness has invited Muslims ( and others ) to be guests in Italy where the representatives of many communities will gather, not to make war, but to make peace. Under the mantle of the One Who is Salaam, may the blessings of God bring us closer to the fulfillment of His Divine Will.

The following is an example of a facet of Islamic belief and practice that you will probably not see in the media. (Please remember that the majority of Muslims are not Arabs.)

Peace to all!
Peace: Part One
by M. R. Bawa Muhaiyaddeen ( RIP).

=====================================Everyone Is Speaking of Peace


I seek refuge in God from the evils of the accursed satan.
In the name of God, Most Merciful, Most Compassionate.
=====================================Brothers and sisters born in this world, please listen to this wonder! The heavens and earth have always existed in peace. The sun, the moon, the stars, and the wind all perform their duty in harmony. Only man, who lives on this earth, has lost that peace. He only talks about it. He gives speeches about establishing peace, but then he disrupts the unity and sets out to rule the world. Is this not a wonder?
Such is the speech of man.
=====================================In this present century, man has discarded God, truth, peacefulness, conscience, honesty, justice, and compassion. Man has changed so much! Instead of searching to discover the three thousand gracious qualities of God, he has lost all those qualities and opened the way to destruction. He seeks to ruin the lives of others and to destroy the entire world. But the world will not be destroyed; the earth and the heavens will never be destroyed. Only man will be destroyed. Man, with all the various means of destruction he has discovered, will in the end destroy only himself. He is like a certain type of moth that is attracted to the glow of a flame, thinking it is food. These moths circle around and around the flame, until finally they fly right into it and die. In the same way, man plummets into evil actions, thinking they will benefit him. He sees evil as good, but the end result is destruction.
=====================================Never has destruction been so much in evidence as in the present century. Man has changed the concept of God, who is truth, and debased the meaning of man, who is wisdom and beauty. He no longer understands what a true human being really is. If man could rediscover who he truly is and then change his present self, he would know peace. Man says he wants to bring peace to others, but in order to do that he must first find it within his own life. How can anyone who has not found peace within himself hope to bring peace to others? How can a man who has no compassion, no unity, and no love within himself bring peace to the world?
=====================================One who has not found justice, conscience, honesty, and truth within himself will not find these qualities in others. One who has not found the value of patience within himself will not find it in others. One who has not understood his own state will not understand the state of others. One who has not strengthened his own faith in God cannot strengthen the faith of others or be strengthened by the faith of others. One who has not acquired good qualities cannot find them in others, nor can he teach them to others. If he tries, his work will be fruitless. How can a man who carries a water bag full of holes hope to quench the thirst of others? As long as he has not repaired his own vessel, he can never fill that of another man.


-------------------------------------To understand this and to establish peace, man must first change the thoughts and qualities within himself. He must change his qualities of selfishness and avarice, his desire for praise, and his love for earth, sensual pleasures, and gold. He must stop thinking, "My family! My wife! My children! I must rule the world! I must advance my position in life!" When a man has all these selfish ideas, how can he possibly create peace for others? However, if he severs these qualities from himself and begins to feel the hunger, the pain, and the difficulties felt by others, and if he treats all lives as his own life, then he will find peace. If he can strive for this understanding and obtain inner patience, contentment, and trust in God,1 if he can imbibe God's qualities and acquire God's state, then he will know peace. And once he finds that clarity within himself, he will discover peace in every life. If everyone would do this, life in this world would be heaven on earth. But if those who live in this world and rule this world cannot find serenity within themselves, they will only end up destroying the world when they try to establish peace. We must think about this.
======================================
One who has not found peace within himself will forever be giving speeches about peace. This world is a pulpit upon which man preaches, and there is no end to this talk! For millions of years man has been speaking this way, but he has not come forward to first find peace within himself. There is no use in making speeches. Man must acquire the qualities of God and live in that state. Only then can he speak of peace, only then can he speak the speech of God and dispense the justice of God's kingdom.
The people who have come to rule the world should think about this. Every man should think about it. Peace can only be found in the heart. Good qualities, wisdom, and clarity must provide that explanation within each heart. Man will only know peace when he brings God's justice and His qualities into himself. Therefore, before we speak of peace, let us try to acquire God's words within ourselves. Let us find tranquility within ourselves. If we can do that, our speech will be fruitful. Then the whole world will be at peace.
Man must find peace, tranquility, happiness, unity, love, and every good quality within his own life, within his own innermost heart.2 Only a person who does that can understand the difficulties, the pain, and the misery of others. A man of wisdom will know this, understand this, and rectify his own mistakes. Then he can help others.

We must all think about this. May God help us. Amen.

Bismal Ab wil Ibn wa Ruh il-Qodus
Allah Wahid
Amen

Abdur Islamovic,
Everything you said is great. We need more of it and a strong emphasis on Christ. Christ is the Prince of Peace. Peace is a divine attribute of Christ Jesus who came into the world to save sinners and to reunite us in his heavenly community, the heavenly ummah. Refuge is in the name of Jesus which means God Saves, Allah youkhalis. If everyone would adhere to Christ and His Church this earthly planet would do without evil.

Abdur, are you interested in Christ and His Church? Or are you a Christian?

Above is quoted:

In this present century, man has discarded God, truth, peacefulness, conscience, honesty, justice, and compassion. Man has changed so much! Instead of searching to discover the three thousand gracious qualities of God, he has lost all those qualities and opened the way to destruction. He seeks to ruin the lives of others and to destroy the entire world. But the world will not be destroyed; the earth and the heavens will never be destroyed. Only man will be destroyed. Man, with all the various means of destruction he has discovered, will in the end destroy only himself. He is like a certain type of moth that is attracted to the glow of a flame, thinking it is food. These moths circle around and around the flame, until finally they fly right into it and die. In the same way, man plummets into evil actions, thinking they will benefit him. He sees evil as good, but the end result is destruction."

Isn't that uplifting?

What's this Moslem thing about 'death'? And death being the result of man's horrid nature and choices? Of course, part of it is the old "Golden Age" mentality: things aren't like they were in the good old days -- and they NEVER were!

I much prefer the Christian approach that says that God loves each human being and that forgiveness comes if one would but ask for forgiveness. Christians stumble and fall; but through God's promise, we get up, dust ourselves off, and move on confidently towards the promise.

Blessings!

Friend Rum,

Salaam!

Thank you for taking the time to read all of my post. I hope it was both objective, and refreshing to your soul. Humankind must return to its first love. We have gone too far astray from the path of God. The Pope of Rome agrees with us on this issue since it is a major theme of his worldview.

To me, all of the Abrahamic religions are of equal legitimacy so there is no need for either of us to go in search of what we already possess. Our parochial school nuns were always quick to remind us that they were not interested in converting us to Christianity or Christ, but only wanted to make us better Muslims. That philosophy is what divides Catholics and Orthodox from Protestants: Protestants are militant evangelists and believe it is a divine duty to convert Muslims to Christianity, while Catholics (including the Pope) recognize that Islam is also a pathway to salvation and eternal life. The Orthodox seem to share the Catholic p-o-v.


Thank God we can live in peace, and having mutual respect for one another certainly provides us with the "space" we need to mutually engage in the difficult and superhuman task of repairing the earth.

When one prays within the Kaaba (the heart of God), the direction of your prayer rug is redundant.

Peace and tranquility of soul, one day at a time.

Abdur

Salam Alika ya Sayid Abdur,
I will have to strongly disagree with you that there are alternative paths to God. If the Pope believes Islam is one of the ways to God he is sadly mistaken. True Christians believe there is only way to God the Father and that is through Christ Jesus, the perfect communion between heaven and earth. Perhaps the Pope meant otherwise and this gives a false impression of the Catholic Church. I am an Eastern Orthodox Christian whose neigbors are Muslims. I don't believe Islam saves. Jesus saves as His names means. Jesus who is fully God and fully man. I certainly do not know what happens to the souls of departed Muslims or non-Muslims for that matter. I do know what the Church through the Holy Spirit (Ruh Allah)has taught uncorrupted, unaltered prior and after Islam. I urge you to study the history of the Orthodox Church objectively prior to Islam as well as afterwards.

Salam Alika wa Rahmit Allah wa Barakato
Rum

It is true that there are many devout and sincere Muslims. But I am afraid His Holiness, Pope John Paul II ( and many other Catholic and Protestant leaders), has been terribly deceived about the factual truth of what Islam is in reality.

Sadly, as long as the Church at Rome insists on deceiving itself about the horrors of Islam, Orthodox will refuse to be re-united with our friends in the West.

We cannot live a lie.

The truth is often shocking, as the following illustrates.

(From a recent discussion with a devout Muslim and professor of physics.)

 " This is a cop out. You are hiding behind the language. There are countless Arabic scholars who say Koran is authored by Mohammad. See:
I am often asked, Why I left Islam?. As absurd as it may be, some Muslims
cannot even allow themselves to think that leaving Islam is an option, or
even possible. They rather think that those who leave Islam are paid Jewish
agents than accept the fact that people have freedom to think and some may
even think that Islam is not for them. The following are my reasons.
Not until few years ago I used to think that my faith in Islam was not based
on blind imitation but rather was the result of years of investigation and
research. The fact that I had read a lot of books on Islam, written by people whose thoughts I approved of and delving into philosophies that were
within my comfort zone, emphasized my conviction that I had found the truth.
All my bias research confirmed my faith. Just like other Muslims I used to
believe that to learn about anything one has to go to the source. Of course
the source of Islam is Quran and the books written by Muslim scholars. Therefore, I felt no need to look elsewhere in order to find the truth, as I
was convinced that I have already found it. As Muslims say "Talabe ilm ba'd
az wossule ma'loom mazmoom". The search of knowledge after gaining it is
foolish
Of course, this is a foolish idea. What if we want to learn the truth about
one of these dangerous cults? Is it enough to depend only on what the cult
leader and his deluded followers say? Wouldn't it be prudent to widen our
research and find out what other people have to say about them? Going to the
source makes sense only in scientific matters, because scientists are not
"believers". They do not say something because they have blind faith. Scientists make a critical analysis of the evidence. It is very much different from religious approach that is based entirely on faith and belief.
I suppose it was my acquaintance with the western humanistic values that
made me more sensitive and whet my appetite for democracy, freethinking,
human rights, equality, etc. It was then that when I read again Quran I came
across injunctions that were not al par with my newfound humanistic values,
I was distressed and felt very uncomfortable to read teachings like these.
Q.3: 5
"But those who reject Faith after they accepted it, and then go on adding to
their defiance of Faith,- never will their repentance be accepted; for they
are those who have gone astray".
  Q.16: 106
"Any one who, after accepting faith in Allah, utters Unbelief,- except under
compulsion, his heart remaining firm in Faith - but such as open their breast to Unbelief, on them is Wrath from Allah, and theirs will be a dreadful Penalty."
One may think that the dreadful penalty mentioned here pertains to the next
word. But Muhammad made sure that these people received their penalty in
this world as well. See the following:
Sahih Bukhari Volume 6, Book 61, Number 577:
I heard the Prophet saying, "In the last days (of the world) there will
appear young people with foolish thoughts and ideas. They will give good
talks, but they will go out of Islam as an arrow goes out of its game, their
faith will not exceed their throats. So, wherever you find them, kill them,
for there will be a reward for their killers on the Day of Resurrection."
Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 63, Number 260:
Ali burnt some people and this news reached Ibn 'Abbas, who said, "Had I
been in his place I would not have burnt them, as the Prophet said, 'Don't
punish (anybody) with Allah's Punishment.' No doubt, I would have killed
them, for the Prophet said, 'If somebody (a Muslim) discards his religion,
kill him.' "
Sahih Bukhari Volume 4, Book 63, Number 261:
Eight men of the tribe of 'Ukil came to the Prophet and then they found the
climate of Medina unsuitable for them. So, they said, "O Allah's Apostle!
Provide us with some milk." Allah's Apostle said, "I recommend that you sh
ould join the herd of camels." So they went and drank the urine and the milk
of the camels (as a medicine) till they became healthy and fat. Then they
killed the shepherd and drove away the camels, and they became unbelievers
after they were Muslims. When the Prophet was informed by a shouter for
help, he sent some men in their pursuit, and before the sun rose high, they
were brought, and he had their hands and feet cut off. Then he ordered for
nails, which were heated and passed over their eyes, and they were left in
the Harra (i.e. rocky land in Medina). They asked for water, and nobody
provided them with water till they died.
And from Partial Translation of Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 38, Number 4339
Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin:
The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) Said: The blood of a Muslim man who
testifies that there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is Allah's Apostle should not lawfully be shed except only for one of three reasons: a man who committed fornication after marriage, in which case he should be
stoned; one who goes forth to fight with Allah and His Apostle, in which
case he should be killed or crucified or exiled from the land; or one who
commits murder for which he is killed.
The following is very disturbing. I dare to say any man who read it and is
not taken aback with disgust has a long way to go to become a human.
  Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 38, Number 4348
"Narrated Abdullah Ibn Abbas:
A blind man had a slave-mother who used to abuse the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and disparage him. He forbade her but she did not stop.
He rebuked her but she did not give up her habit. One night she began to
slander the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and abuse him. So he took a dagger,
placed it on her belly, pressed it, and killed her. A child who came between
her legs was smeared with the blood that was there. When the morning came,
the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) was informed about it. He assembled the people and said: I adjure by Allah the man who has done
this action and I adjure him by my right to him that he should stand up.
Jumping over the necks of the people and trembling the man stood up. He sat before the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and said: Apostle of Allah! I
am her master; she used to abuse you and disparage you. I forbade her, but
she did not stop, and I rebuked her, but she did not abandon her habit. I
have two sons like pearls from her, and she was my companion. Last night she
began to abuse and disparage you. So I took a dagger, put it on her belly
and pressed it till I killed her.
Thereupon the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Oh be witness, no retaliation is payable for her blood".
I felt the above story was a manifest injustice. Muhammad condoned a man
killing a pregnant mother and his own unborn child just because he said that
she insulted him!?
(Arabs used to sleep with their maid slaves. Quran perpetuates this tradition Q.33: 52 "It is not lawful for thee (to marry more) women after
this, nor to change them for (other) wives, even though their beauty attract
thee, except any thy right hand should possess (as handmaidens): and Allah
doth watch over all things." Muhammad himself slept with Mariyah the maid
slave of Hafsa his wife without marrying her.)
Forgiving someone for killing another human being just because he said she
insulted Muhammad is unacceptable. What if that man was lying to escape
punishment? What dose this story say about Muhammad's sense of Justice?
Imagine how many innocent women, were killed by their husbands during these
1400 years who escaped punishment accusing their murdered wives of blaspheming the prophet of God and this Hadith has made them get away with
it.
Here is another one.
Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 38, Number 4349
Narrated Ali ibn AbuTalib:
A Jewess used to abuse the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) and disparage him. A
man strangled her till she died. The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him)
declared that no recompense was payable for her blood.
It was not easy to read these stories and not be moved. There is no reason
to believe that all these stories were fabricated. Why should believers, who
have tried to depict their prophet as a compassionate man fabricate so many
stories that would make him look like ruthless tyrant?
I could no more accept the brutal treatment of those who chose not to accept
Islam. Faith is a personal matter. I could no more accept that the punishment of someone who criticizes any religion must be death.
See how Muhammad dealt with the unbelievers.
  Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 38, Number 4359
Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas:
The verse "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Apostle, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is
execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite side or exile from the land...most merciful" was revealed about
polytheists. If any of them repents before they are arrested, it does not
prevent from inflicting on him the prescribed punishment, which he deserves."
How could a messenger of God maim and crucify people on the account that
they resist accepting him? Could such person be really a messenger of God?
Wasn't there a better man with more moral an ethical fortitude to bear this
mighty responsibility?
I could not accept the fact that Muhammad slaughtered 900 Jews in one day,
after he captured them in a raid that he started. I read the following story
and I shivered.
Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 38, Number 4390
Narrated Atiyyah al-Qurazi:
I was among the captives of Banu Qurayzah. They (the Companions) examined
us, and those who had begun to grow hair were killed, and those who
had not were not killed. I was among those who had not grown hair
Also I found following story shocking.
  Sunan Abu-Dawud Book 38, Number 4396
Narrated Jabir ibn Abdullah:
A thief was brought to the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him). He said: Kill him.
The people said: He has committed theft, Apostle of Allah! Then he said: Cut off his hand. So his (right) hand was cut off. He was brought a second time
and he said: Kill him. The people said: He has committed theft, Apostle of
Allah! Then he said: Cut off his foot.
So his (left) foot was cut off.
He was brought a third time and he said: Kill him. The people said: He has committed theft, Apostle of Allah! So he said: Cut off his hand. (So his (left) hand was cut off.) He was brought a fourth time and he said: Kill him. The people said: He has committed theft, Apostle of Allah! So he said: Cut off his foot. So his (right) foot was cut off. He was brought a fifth time and he said: Kill him. So we took him away and killed him. We then dragged him and cast him into a
well and threw stones over him.
Seems that Muhammad passed judgment before hearing the case. Also by cutting
a thief's hand he is left with no other means to earn his bread except begging, which would be difficult since he is defamed as a thief and so
hated by people. Therefore re-offending becomes his only means of livelihood.
After living many years in the West and being received kindly by people of
other religions or of no religion, who loved me and accepted me as their
friend; who let me into their lives and their heart. I could no more accept
the following mandates of Quran as the words of God.
Q.58: 22
"You will not find any people who believe in Allaah and the Last Day, making
friendship with those who oppose Allaah and His Messenger."
Q.3: 118-120
"O you who believe! Take not as (your) bitaanah (advisors, consultants,
protectors, helpers, friends, etc.) those outside your religion (pagans,
Jews, Christians, and hypocrites) since they will not fail to do their best
to corrupt you. They desire to harm you severely. Hatred has already appeared from their mouths, but what their breasts conceal is far worse.
Indeed We have made clear to you the aayaat (proofs, evidence, verses), if
you understand. Lo! You are the ones who love them but they love you not,
and you believe in all the Scriptures [i.e., you believe in the Tawraat and
the Injeel, while they disbelieve in your Book (the Qur'aan)]. And
when they
meet you, they say, 'We believe.' But when they are alone, they bite the
tips of their fingers at you in rage. Say: 'Perish in your rage. Certainly
Allaah knows what is in the breasts (all the secrets).' If a good
befalls
you, it grieves them, but some evil overtakes you, they rejoice at it."
And
Q.5: 51
"O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as awliya' (friends, protectors, helpers, etc.), they are but awliya' to one another."
I also found the above statement false. The evidence is in the Bosnia and
Kosovo crisis; where Christian countries, waged war against another Christian country, to liberate Muslims. Many Jewish doctors volunteered to
help the Kosovar refugees, despite the fact that during the WWII, the same
Albanian Muslims took side with Hitler and helped him in his holocaust against the Jews.
It became obvious to me that Muslims are accepted by all the people of the
world yet our prophet wants us to hate them, to disassociate ourselves from
them, to force them into our way of life or kill them, subdue them and make
them pay Jizya. How silly! How pathetic! How inhumane! No wonder there is so
much inexplicable hate of the West and of the Jews among Muslims. It was
Muhammad who inseminated the hate and the distrust of the non-believers
among his followers. How Muslims can ever integrate with other nations while
holding these hateful massages of Quran as the words of God?
There are many Muslims who immigrate to non-Muslim countries and are received with open arms. Many of them get into politics and become part of
the ruling elite. We suffer no discrimination in the non-Islamic countries.
But see how our holy prophet tells us to deal with non-Muslims were we are
the majority.
  Q.9: 29
"Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Messenger, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth, (even if they are) of the People of the
Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves
subdued."
I also find the following verses completely against my conscience. I love
all humanity and wish everyone to be happy in this world and forgiven in the
next. But my holy prophet bade me not to seek forgiveness for the unbelievers even if they are my parents and beloved ones.
(Interpretation of the meaning by Muhsin Khan):
Q.9: 113
"It is not (proper) for the Prophet and those who believe to ask Allaah's
forgiveness for the mushrikeen, even though they be of kin, after it has
become clear to them that they are the dwellers of the Fire (because they
died in state of disbelief)."
Quarn and Ahadith are full of outrageous verses like these that to me are
clear proof that Muhammad was not a prophet, but a cult leader. To force
people to denounce their own family is what cults do. He was an impostor who
lied so loudly and so forcefully that the ignorant people of his time believed in him. Then the following generations echoed this lies passing it
to the next. Philosophers and writers were born in this atmosphere of lies
and elaborated on it, embellished it, and made it credible. But when you go
to the core of it, when you read Quran and study the Ahadith you see it is
nothing but lie.
I know my words can be upsetting. But I urge you, to take control of your
anger, read my other articles and mule on them.

As you see my rejection of Islam is
not based on the bad deeds of Muslims
but on the bad deeds of its author. All the cruelties and heinous acts of
violence, perpetrated by Muslims throughout the centuries were inspired by
Quran and Sunnah (the example of the prophet) That is why I condemn Islam
for the bad things that Muslims do. I know any effort to humanize the Islamic community is a waste of time. The enemy is Islam and that is the
target of my attacks. I do that despite having become the magnet of the
hatred of all fanatical Muslims. There is no gain in this for me. The only
reason I am so adamant against Islam is to liberate the world from the claws
of this satanic cult and restore peace and prosperity, love and amity amongst the children of man."

Rome, by her foolishness, never seems to tire of alienating the Orthodox from re-union. The Orthodox are not "asleep" as some would say, but wide awake to reality.

I totally agree with Rum Orthodox regarding the fact that Christ is the Only path to salvation. The Catholic Church does NOT teach that Islam is a "way" to God, quite the contrary actually. A very remedial study of Catholicism, Popes,Fathers, Doctors, and two thousand years of Catholic doctrine says clearly that Jesus Christ the Incarnate Son of the living God is the ONE and ONLY way to salvation. It sounds like the nuns who taught at Mr. Abdur's school were modernists. In any event the fact that those nun's "were always quick to remind us that they were not interested in converting us to Christianity or Christ, but only wanted to make us better Muslims", Shows that they(the nuns) were seriously deficient in their knowledge of the teachings of the Catholic Church.
I would challenge Abdur to provide a quote where the Pope states that Islam is a valid path to heaven. This Pope (john paul ii) says many positive things about other religions, but, he can NEVER state that other religions (Islam included)are a valid path to salvation, they are NOT. I would urge Abdur to investigate the claims of the Catholic Church and faith in the God-Man Jesus Christ.

Dear brother, while I can understand what you have written, and I myself can see that Islam bases itself upon historical foundations which it then abjures, I am concerned about the impression that Islam cannot lead its adherents to salvation.

The fact remains: God does what God does. We humans don't have a voice in the salvation of other souls except to pray for them. Beyond that is to be spiritaully arrogant.

I would hope that the Islamis in their prayer would call upon God, and would ask of God that He guide their souls in the way of love -- both for God and for neighbor and to abjure any and all calls for persecution or hounding of those who are not followers of Mohammed.

I am sure that there are many Izlamis who are of good will and who would voluntarily adhere to the teachings of love of God and love of neighbor. But we have to be vigilant of those Izlamis who espouse the "fundamentalist" theology that any Mohammedan must be willing to defend the faith with the blood of the 'non-believer'. These are the folks that are truly dangerous and who represent a threat to non-Mohammedans.

Blessings

Salam Alikum wa Rahmit Allah wa Barakato

I don't know if any knows this but the practicing Muslims pray daily to become Orthodox and they don't realize it. Surat Al-Fatiha says "Show us the straight way". Orthodoxy is just that---the straight way. Remember that most of the Middle East was a one time Orthodox. What a nice historical connection!

Also, what's nice is that my name, Rum, is mentioned in Surat al-Rum (chapter 30). The first verse states "I defeated Rum" in reference to the Roman Empire. The spirit of Rum still continues to breath despite Islamic hegemony. Pray that we follow the straight path (sirat al-mustageem)in Christ Jesus.

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Chaps,

I realise this is possibly slightly off-topic, but I had the bizzare idea of making a limited-edition series of Ecclesiastical bears, all dressed up in the appropriate vestments of each rite. We could have a Latin series, with one bear dressed as Pope in a Papal tiara, another one as a Cardinal, priest, deacon, subdeacon, altarboy, nun... and another Russian series, a Syrian series... an Anglican series...

I think they'd be rather cute. Am I mad? Does anyone else think that'd be cute?

Yours waxlessly in Domino,

Edward

Dear Edward,

Good intention, but while teddy bears are wonderful, it seems wrong to dress them in sacred vestments. A company here in the States has made a series of collector's/display dolls in traditional nun's habits, demonstrating the dress of each order. Perhaps one could do something similar with "Ken' dolls or a cheap substitute — these basically would be mini-mannequins, not to be played with, to show people what the vestments of all the different rites look like. The Eastern ones can have little beards put on them! Certainly more economical than lugging around life-size store-window dummies, but someone has to sew all the little vestments.

This might be a fun project for little girls (and their moms) in Catholic school or catechism class, for one's own church or school or for a neighboring Eastern church. Father then can use the dolls "on tour' when visiting places to give talks about the Eastern Churches.

http://oldworldrus.com

[ 11-27-2001: Message edited by: Serge ]

Salam alikum,
Christ be upon you,

There is an interesting website that I wholeheartedly agree with about Islam even though it is not mainline Islam. It's focus is to secularize Islam, dispell Islamic myths and speak the truth about Islam. It will be against Islam. The website belongs to former Muslims that speak agaisnt Islam. I have to thank my brother, Samer for it(Shukran ya akhi).

www.secularislam.org

P.S. I am considering of buying the book, "Why I am Not a Muslim" by Ibn Warraqa.

Rome's envoy to Saudi Arabia converts to Islam

http://www.cnn.com/2001/WORLD/meast/11/26/religion.islam.italy.reut/index.html

Things like this are so depressing!

Islam and the West is a very difficult problem. The East has a more experienced view of Al Islam and I have heard the Lebanse view that the god of Islam is not the same as the God of the Jews and Christians. Western PC'ers do seem to have venerated Islamic Fundamentalists in the past as men of god and the 9-11 incident may change that view. The PC'er's do promote a negitive view of all Christians.

When we look at shared blood between Islam and the East and the ravages of Islam it is obvious that Islam committed a great crime in the first Halocaust against the Christians & Jews. When Islam expanded out of Arabia into the Middle East and N. Africa. That halocaust has been recorded in "The Decline of Eastern Christianity in the Middle East: Jihad" by Bat Ye'or and her previous work "The Dhimmi (Dhimmi means infidel slave)". Islam practiced Ethnic Cleansing and only the Copic People of Egypt, Lebanese. Assyrians, Christian Syrians, Armeanian, some Greeks and Caldee's remain alive from all the native Christian Population that existed in the Middle East and N. Africa prior to Islam. There were only Arabs in Arabia and Christian Arabs in Petra that were the first destroyed when Islam attacked their water supply. A pattern of ecoligical warfare that continued into N. Africa. Islam destroyed water resources as a means of conquest and genocide. Islam destroyed all those nations in an orgy of rape, murder and exploitation that set Islam's pattern throughout the world. The crime is still in progress as in the Sudan Moslems are raping, enslaving a whole people as they kill countless Christians.

Islam has not had the critical scholarly examination of deconstruction that Christianity has survived. Mohammed's pagan religion of the whorship of the Moon god allah and his two goddess daughters developed and changed. Salman Rushdie's crime was addmitting the pagan roots of Islam. An examination of mohammed and his religion is quite interesting but shows a link to fundementalism and terrorism.

God, Islam, and Love

Islamic Perspective
God and Love
By: Dr. Ahmad Shafaat
(1984)


This is an exposition of the Islamic teachings on the subject of divine love, forgiveness, salvation, etc.
From this exposition it will become clear that: for the most part the assumptions made by some people about Islamic teachings, the most basic of which is that Islam knows only the greatness of God but not fully His love, are incorrect, being based either on ignorance or deliberate distortion of facts; and Islam contains the best of teachings of previous revelations on this subject and states them in rational language. God's Love in Islam
The Qur`an uses several words for the term "love" with different shades of meaning. If all these words -- rafah, rahmah, wudda, hub, etc. -- are translated as "love", then this word is of very frequent occurrence in the Qur`an, appearing on average about once in every 15 aya´h (communications; verses). Even the word hub, which is most commonly translated as love, occurs in application to God so frequently in the Qur`an that it is hardly justified to say that Islam knows only greatness of God, not His love. 
God's Universal Love (rafah, rahmah, rabubiyyah) The various words used in the Qur`an for God´s love can be divided into two categories: those that relate to universal manifestation of divine love and those that refer to a special love reserved for the righteous.
God's love in its universal manifestation is generally referred to in the Qur`an under the terms rafah and rahmah. Rafah can be translated as compassion, kindness or pity, while rahmah is usually rendered as grace, love, blessing or mercy. About God´s rahmah the Qur`an says that it encompasses all things:
My punishment I inflict upon whom I will but My rahmah embraces all things... (7:156).
O our Sustainer! You embrace all things within (Your) rahmah and knowledge (40:7).
These verses reveal that while divine punishment is an act of God's will directed towards some purpose, love or rahmah is, as it were, His nature, His normal attitude towards men and other creatures. So it is said in 6:12, 15 that God   "has enjoined upon Himself (the rule) of rahmah". It is possible to include in "all things" that are under the embrace of God's rahmah even those people who are punished, so that even divine punishment can be said to proceed in some way from rahmah. [It's through punishments and afflictions do we realize that we have crossed the natural boundaries of our existence. This, in turn, brings about a sense of awareness and self-knowledge, which in turn enables one to return to the middle and the balanced path where there is contentment and peace.] 
For humans, God's rahmah and rafah are manifested, for example, in His abundant forgiveness and in the creation of the environment in which humans live, an environment that they can use to their great benefit (22:65; 30:50 etc.). They are also manifested in the revelations sent by God through His messengers (2:154; 11:17; 11:53), [as through this Divine guidance, we come to know God and the natural boundaries He has created within which there is a maximum chance for our spiritual growth].
The coming of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) is especially a manifestation of God's rahmah and rafah (57:9; 6:155). He came as rahmat-al-lil-alamin (grace to all nations) and the revelation he brought is rahmah for all those who believe (10:57; 17:82 etc.). Concrete manifestations of rahmah and rafah gives rise to two oft-repeated "names" or attributes of God: Rahman and Rahim. Both names are intensive forms derived from rahmah, signifying "Most Gracious or Compassionate", but there seems to be a difference in the shade of meaning. Rahim emphasizes divine love as it responds to man's deeds when they have occurred or his needs when they have arisen; for example, God's patience, long suffering and forgiveness given to man after he has been sinning or His responding to the prayer of a man who has been suffering. The name Rahman, on the other hand, stresses love and grace that flows from God independently of what man does, such as God's love and grace which is manifested in His creating man or sending the Prophet for humankind or in His putting some of humankind on the right path, in any of which acts human beings played absolutely no part. [Comments]
Since we're discussing the Divine attribute Rahman,  excerpts fr Shaykh Fadhlalla's Tafseer on Surah al-Rahman have been added here:
1. The Beneficent God, (Ar Rahmân)
2. Taught the Qur`an. (Alla Mal Qur`an)
3. He created man, (Khalaq al Insân)
4. Taught him the clear evidence. (Alla Ma Hul Bayân) Ar-Rahmân (the Merciful) is one of the key attributes of God. Every attribute is an âya, a sign indicating the oneness of God.

Everything in creation is permeated with and connected to Him. In order for the rahmah (mercy) of the Rahmân to be understood, appreciated and experienced, knowledge has been given to man. One cannot understand something unless it is experienced. The most valuable knowledge in life's journey is the knowledge of the Qur`an. Man´s link to God is through the Qur`an, through the Book, through the knowledge that will enable him to see the all-encompassing mercy. The meaning of the hadith (tradition) that Muhammad (peace be upon him) was created before the creation of Adam, is that the light of the path existed before Adam. After the Qur`an, man, bani Adam, was created. So knowledge -- the light of Islam, the light of the Qur`an -- existed before khalaqa-l-insân (He created man). The Creator contains the knowledge of what He will create. The highest creation is the Muhammadi being, the perfect being. The knowledge of this final product, the ultimate being, the *khalîfa* (deputy) of God, was with the one and only Knower, with the Alîm. The light of Muhammad was there when Adam was still between water and clay. The purpose of creation was to create the perfect man, the last of the prophets, the one after whom nothing new could be added. Every aspect of the Creation has the label of the Creator on it. Creation is
in His name. By His decree His rahmah (mercy) manifested as the knowledge of the Qur`an. His rahmah then becomes the creational act -- (He created man) -- making wider ripples through the ´evidence´. Bayân (in âya 4) is clear evidence which emanates from what is most subtle, penetrating the gross physical manifestation towards which man orients his perception. This is the knowledge of witnessing. Everything that is seen bears witness to the cause of its creation and to its being subject to the decree of the Beneficent.


The knowledge of the Qur`an is the knowledge of tawhîd (divine unity). In this instance, rahmah may also mean the tawhîd of the Wâhid, the One. Access to Him is through the knowledge of His decree, which is the Book. Creation took place according to the decree. The bayân is an outcome of the nature of that creation.
Man seeks evidence for everything. He is always seeking knowledge. He seeks to know the cause, effect and proof of things. Nothing is haphazard, everything leaves its trace. Man is the trace of the Creator; he is His evidence. Everything in His existence is an âyatu-llâh (sign of God). If man knows himself, then he has known the meaning of guardianship or lordship, rabûbiyya. "He who knows himself has known his Lord" (hadîdth).
[Comments end here]


Another attribute of God which relates to God's love is Rabb. This is a difficult word to translate. The cognate verb is used in 17:24 for the care that a child receives from his parents and this provides the best starting point for understanding the idea. God as Rabb is He who is ultimately responsible even for the care our parents give us and Who, of course, provides us with a great many other things which parents do not or cannot. In other words, God's whole role in bringing us into existence, in sustaining our existence and in our growth and development in various aspects, comes under the term Rabb. In English we can do justice to the term by using several such words as Sustainer, Cherisher, Developer. Rabb also includes the idea of having a just claim to the possession of a thing and of having authority over it. In this sense it can be translated as Lord.


Since all the roles that an ideal father plays in relation to his children -- providing for their material and psychological needs, giving necessary guidance to them so that they can grow up into mature adults, and assuming for these purposes authority as the master of the household -- are included in the word Rabb, the Qur`anic term includes the best of the senses in which the New Testament sometimes refers to God as Abba, Father.
But Rabb is preferable to Abba because of two reasons: it properly indicates that God's role as creator, supporter, provider, cherisher, guide and lord is far superior to that of a father, and many individuals may not have had a very good experience with their fathers -- if, for example, they were criminals, or alcoholics, or cruel, or suffer from other serious weaknesses -- and in such individuals the term "Father" may not evoke the best of images and feelings, so that instead of endearing God to them the term may contribute to blocking the development of a close relationship with Him.  
God's Special Love in Islam (hub, mahabbah, wudda) In addition to rafah, rahmah and rabb the Qur`an also uses hub, mahabbah, and wuddu to refer to God´s love. In general, these words signify a more personal and warmer manifestation of divine love than do the other words we have considered above. Mahabbah of God was operative, for example in the safe upbringing of Moses among his enemies, and in His raising him to great spiritual and moral heights: I cast over you (O Moses) the garment of love (mahabbah) from Me and (this) in order that you may be reared under My care (literally "eye") (20:39)
Hub and Wudda are available to the faithful: On those who have faith and do good will the Most Gracious One (Rahman) bestow love (wudda)." (19:96)
Say, (O My Prophet to the people), "if you love God, follow me, (and) God will love you (hub) and forgive you your sins; for God is oft-forgiving, most merciful." (3:31)
Wudda gives rise to God's name Al-Wadud (Loving One) (11:90; 85:14). Hub is available to those:
who repent (2:222)
who do good (2:195; 5:13)
who are just (5:42; 49:9)
who persevere in patience (3:145)
who fight for His cause (61:4)
who love cleanliness (61:4)
who put their trust in Him (3:158)
and so on. But it is not available to the: the conceited, boastful man (2:190)
the mischievous disturbers of peace (28:77) the unjust (42:40)
the extravagant (6:142)
the supercilious (16:23)
the transgressors (2:190)
and so on.


Thus while there is a divine love (rafah, rahmah) which embraces everything there is another, warmer, type of love (hub) that God gives to some but not to others. That God is selective in giving this warmest love is necessary idea found in every religion. It really amounts to a distinction between good and evil. If God treated everybody in a completely identical manner, regardless of his character and conduct, then the distinction between good and evil, which is essential to all religions, would become meaningless. Consequently there is no basis for the criticism by some people that the Qur`anic conception of God´s love is defective because the Qur`an says that God does not love people with certain bad qualities such as unjustness, boastfulness, lawlessness.
The Qur`an does not say that God hates these people, only that He does not love them with a warm love (hub); the question of the availability of the universal type of divine love (rahmah) is left in the Qur`an open for all people in the world.

Let us note some further points about the Qur`anic concept of God´s hub.
It is clear from the Qur`anic verses referred to above that the distinguishing marks of those who received God´s hub are certain qualities or traits -- trust in God, justness, patience etc. Adherence to a code of law given by Islam is not stressed in this connection. The Qur`an says that those who follow the Prophet receive God´s hub (3:31) but it stops at this positive statement and does not say anywhere that those who do not follow the Prophet will not receive God´s hub, thus leaving the possibility in principle that followers of other religions may acquire the qualities and conduct that earn man the love of God. But the Qur`an does say that those righteous believers in other faiths who accept Islam will have their portion of divine love doubled (57:28). This is because God has a special love for the Prophet Muhammad and his mission represents the primary means in our age for the realization of divine purpose in history, so that to follow him is more than to acquire faith and good qualities. Although a man with good qualities of heart and conduct receives divine love, he does not do so because of his qualities. For like every other good thing that happens to a man (4:79), good qualities of heart and conduct are themselves ultimately a gift from God and are not acquired by man on his own. When in numerous places the Qur`an says that God guides or admits into His own rahmah whom He Wills, the meaning is that the act that puts man on the path of God and His love is initiated by God. This idea comes out especially clearly in the following passage: This (Qur`an) is a reminder. So let everyone who wills, take a way to the Lord. But you will not will, unless wills God. Surely, God is full of knowledge and wisdom. He admits to His rahmah who He wills; but for the wrongdoers He has prepared a grievous penalty." (76:29-31; see also 81:27-29, 42:8)
 
To the extent that the Qur`an relates the reception of divine love with acquisition of certain qualities of heart and conduct (even if that relation is not of simple cause and effect), we can say that according to the Qur`an divine love is purposive, for qualities can become relevant only for serving a purpose. Thus God´s love should not be thought of as simply a sentimental person-to-person relationship, but a creative force which operates to realize an End.

[ 01-21-2002: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

I ran accross this site recently: http://www.answering-islam.org

The site is maintain by Protestants but I have not seen any heresy on the site. I found it quite interesting that the site claims that almost no Muslim would admit that any Muslim would ever convert to Christianity. They post many posting from Muslims stating that Christians lie about Muslim converts.

What are your thoughts?

Undoubtedly, some Muslims convert to Christianity and some Christians convert to Islam. However, we are living in an epoch when more Christians are attracted to Islam than Muslims are attracted to Christianity.

I know that the Islamic internet sites have been flooded with requests for information about Islam, especially since 9/11. And the vast majority of the inquirers do not have traditional Islamic names. Also, Muslims who were secularized or lukewarm in their practice of or attachment to Islam are returning to the practice of the faith. And ethnic groups that one would not normally associate with Islam are finding their spiritual niche within the Ummah.

The important issue for Muslims, who share my interpretation of the faith, is that the spiritual needs of souls are fulfilled by Islam. On the other hand, Islam allows me to recognize that Judaism and Christianity are also legitimate pathways to salvation.

What concerns me about Islam in the middle east is that it is a crime to convert from Islam to Christianity. I have spoken to some Coptic Christians in Egypt who tell me that they believe many would like to convert but they are afraid of what would happen to their families. This only confirms my own personal belief that Islam is a religion of forced conversions and mis-information. I have dedicated myself to pray for the Christians in the middle east from now own after hearing the horror stories told to me by the Coptics.

God bless!

Abdur Islamovic writes:

"This is an exposition of the Islamic teachings on the subject of divine love, forgiveness, salvation, etc."

Then perhaps he can explain to us the need for, and the justification of, the Jannissaries and what they did to Christians in the Balkans.

Bob

--------------------------------------------------

Perhaps he would also like to comment on the following article -

http://www.washtimes.com/culture/20020116-99672079.htm



ANGLICAN PRIEST BELIEVES WEST IS UNDERESTIMATING ZEAL OF ISLAM



The Rev. Patrick Sookhdeo, an expert on Islamic history

and politics, directs the Institute for the Study of Islam

and Christianity in London and the Barnabas Fund, a charity.

Of Pakistani descent, he grew up as a Muslim in Guyana, then converted

to Christianity, eventually becoming an Anglican priest. In November, he

was awarded the Coventry International Prize for Peace and

Reconciliation. The following are excerpts from a talk he gave Sunday in

Fairfax County.



I think we have a greater problem in Islam than we realize. Much as I

understand why politicians in the U.S. and U.K. have made the kinds of

affirmatory statements they have made, I think time will show they have

made a mistake. In dealing with Islam, you have to tell the truth. And

you have to meet it head on. It understands power and only power. And so

you have to know how to exercise power.



I believe we face a much greater threat from Muslim

communities within our own countries than we realize. What

we are dealing with is the increasing radicalization of

groups within our societies that would have their own

agenda.



The Muslim world sees itself as under threat. Far from being unified, it

is heavily fragmented. But there are certain challenges they will face

[together]. And that is Western globalization, which they blame for

everything. Western neo-colonalism arising out of old colonialism that,

too, they blame for everything. Their massive corruption of their own

leadership structures, their autocratic leadership rules that exist all

of this has tended to create new forces within the Islamic world.



For a number of years, Christian communities have suffered excessive problems at the hands of Muslims. Generally, the Western nations have opted to deny the existence of such difficulties. They have oil

interests, they have geopolitical interests and they are concerned with

their bread-and-butter issues. Therefore, why take up issues relating to

Christian minorities when there is nothing to be gained by it? We can

rescue Kuwait because there is oil, but why should we want to rescue

black Sudanese Christians? It is as simple as that.



And the church opted for interreligious dialogue. They desperately

wanted a relationship with the Muslims. So it meant the Christian

minorities had to be sacrificed on the altar of community relations.



With the advent of Islam in the West, the Western countries have to come

to terms with a minority and they didn't know how to do it because of

civil liberties. We have got societies that are strong liberal

democracies. Our own legal framework stops us from dealing with

extremist religion.



Historically, Islam has never learned to live as a minority because its

basis exists in power. Therefore, how does it reconstruct itself in

Western societies? My own feeling is that what will happen in the

British society I am waiting to see whether it will happen in the U.S.

is Muslim societies will emerge within Western countries where they will

develop their own patterns of social sharia [Islamic law].



In Britain today, where Islam controls the inner cities, we have major

social exclusion and the development of sharia. We have had churches

burned, Christians attacked and a mission center destroyed. The media has deliberately kept everything off the air. This plays into the hands of Muslims ultimately.



As for the church in the West, I see a real dilemma in that

it works on the basis of pluralism. Difficulties arise in

three areas. The first is the uniqueness of the Christian faith. Can we

hold onto uniqueness in the context of pluralism in society? And what if

government and church leaders say, just for the sake of peace in our

society, Christianity must sacrifice its unique role? That is an issue

already in Britain.



Secondly, there is the question of evangelism. Will we have

the right to evangelize Muslims? The Samuel Zwemer Institute [an

American missions organization] just said that since September 11, more

than 34,000 North Americans have converted to Islam. In Britain,

phenomenal numbers are moving towards Islam. It seems strange that a

religion whose followers could propound such a heinous crime has

actually come out on top. That is unanswerable. Why is it that the

church is losing ground and not Islam?



The third great question is conversion. Islam sees

conversion as a fundamental attack against their religion.

So will we have to deny that? Overall, I think we are going into very

difficult waters. The question is what policies Western governments take

vis-a-vis toward Islam? I think we must drive Islam to have a

reformation, which is what Salman Rushdie is saying, that Islam

unreformed will be brutal and barbaric. Its only future is in having a

Martin Luther. But the question is: Who is going to be that leader? And

will he be allowed to survive?



If all the West does is support conservative Islam, then

they are actually simply putting off the evil day. The

policy of the British government, the monarchy and the

church has been to sell Islam. In fact, the most

conservative, right-wing paper, the Daily Telegraph, did a 16-page

supplement on how wonderful Islam is. And everyone accepted the article.

No one was allowed to criticize. I was one of the few that did. I was

simply massacred. The only line permitted is that Islam is peaceful, it

is tolerant, it is a wonderful religion.



If your president, your church in our case the monarchy

if everyone sings in tune for the media, what is the average person in

the street going to say? We have sold a lie and people have bought it.



[British] Muslims realized at a very early stage [after September 11]

they would capitalize on this. They sent out a Koran, and Muslim holy

books to every member of the House of Lords, to every member of the

House of Commons. They swamped the country and they succeeded. They

then sent out their speakers. Muslims have approached all churches and

said, 'Why don't we instruct you on Islam?' Now our government is

considering creating a booklet on Islam for all institutes and

structures to study.



Here I am highly critical of church leaders. I think they failed their own country because they did not have the courage to break with what was

going on and they did not have the insight to see what needs to be done.

The Muslims found a very vulnerable people who were open to their ideas.



Meanwhile, Christianity was painted in a particular light. Melanie

Phillips, writing in Britain's Sunday Times, said that Christianity is

the only religion that has extended itself through mission, colonialism

and the Crusades. In other words, Christianity was conceived as a white

man's religion brutal, barbarous and evil whereas Islam is a noble

religion based on peace.



If I say the history of the West has been infinitely

superior to [that of] the Muslim world; that freedom, democracy, human

rights and religious liberty have come out of Christianity and the West;

that we have something to offer the Muslim world that is viewed

critically. How are we now going to educate the average person out there

that there is something very good about the West and Christianity?

perhaps also, Abdur can name us one predominately Moselem country where non Moselems have equal rights or total religious freedom.

Bob

England has already lost the Good Fight. They did so a long time before any Brits knew of Islam. They lost when King Henry VIII wanted a divorce. A divided Church is a lost Church. What I think should be down is the Church should draw a battle line in the sand and stand firm and fight the good fight with Love and Mercy. We need more saints like Cyril and Methodius to go to places like Ethoipia and say Ok Coptics and Orthodox we are going to help you.

The Truth needs to get to Saudia Arabia and other Muslims countries via Radio like short wave and there needs to be support groups to help those converts. It is ever more clear to me that Islam is a destructive force in the world that can only be stopped with Love and devotion to Our Lord!

Remember the catacombs!
Fight the good Fight!

Another big problem I have with Islam is total mis-information Muslims have about Christianity. I have no problem if a person wants to reject the Catholic Church because that person has all of the facts about the faith. However, when someone is told a lie about the faith and rejects the faith based on a lie then that is when I have a problem. Mohammed (May God have mercy on his sinful soul) taught that Jesus did not die on the cross. However, today modern archealogy and historians have an awful lot of physical prove from documents found from the Roman Empire which prove otherwise. This evidence can and should not be over looked when making the choice of ones faith. Rather, Muslims are NEVER told the Christian side of each arguement.

What are your thoughts?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by OrthoMan:
[QB]Abdur Islamovic writes:

"This is an exposition of the Islamic teachings on the subject of divine love, forgiveness, salvation, etc."

Then perhaps he can explain to us the need for, and the justification of, the Jannissaries and what they did to Christians in the Balkans.

Bob


For the same reason that Christians had a "need" to suppress paganism and dissent by the sword or for the Crusades, the Inquisition, the centuries old slaughter of Jews, the betrayel of Spanish Muslims after the reconquest, the slaughter of Incas, Mayans, etc., fratricidal wars between Catholics, Orthodox, and Protestants, that almost destroyed Christianity from within and laid waste Europe, etc., etc., ad nauseam.

In other words, duplicity and the bloodthirsty tendency of humans to possess what is not theirs by force and cruelty; it is a universal tendency.

Christians have absolute rights of religion in Albania proper ( the civil war in Macedonia and Kosovo is a different situation where neither Christians or Muslims have absolute religious rights), Bosnia, and Malaysia. Some Jordanian Christians claim the same rights, as do Palestinian Christians. And there are smaller African countries where Christians are a minority but suffer no discrimination. And there is some discrimination against Muslims in some majority Christian countries, such as Greece and Bulgaria, etc.

But I do agree with you that the situation of religious freedom in Islamic countries places us far behind that of the West.

The sword or the spirit?

Islam came peacefully to Albania and there was a strong presence of Islam within Albania as early as the 13th century.

The ancestors of those now known as Bosniacs or Slavic Muslims received Islam as the good news of spiritual and social liberation.


Indonesia, the world's largest (in population: 150 million or more) nation was converted by merchants and missionaries.

From God we have come and to God is our return. All of us (as individuals) can practice peace.

Abdur

[ 01-21-2002: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

Abdur,

What you post sounds wonderful but in the real world it is not like that. Ever minority Christian group in a Muslim country suffers greatly under Islam. I have heard it straight from the houses mouth the Coptics. Your religion time and time again has persacuted the Christians.

Many Muslims would argue that they freed the Coptics from their religious persacution from the Western Christianity. That would be an exageration of the truth and a misunderstanding of the early Church councils regarding the 2 natures of Christ. The Coptics refused the councils decisions and they were dealt with. Islam did not liberate those people.

Abdur,
Why do you continue posting your heresy here that is extremely objectionable?! Have I not told you that the Quran is not the work of Allah!
I would like to quote you
"The most valuable knowledge in life's journey is the knowledge of the Qur`an. Man´s link to God is through the Qur`an, through the Book, through the knowledge that will enable him to see the all-encompassing mercy. The meaning of the hadith (tradition) that Muhammad (peace be upon him) was created before the creation of Adam, is that the light of the path existed before Adam."

How do you know this stuff to be true? You said in one of your posts that the Hadiths are fairy tales?! I think they are.

As for the word 'Rabb', what is so difficult about translating it into English or any language? I am not asking you to chant it for us in English! I highly recommend that you take Arabic classes. This is the problem with Islamic polemics. They claim you cannot translate the Quran or its words into another language because it will obscure its hidden truths in the Arabic language. That's phoney baloney. Anyone interested in Islam should learn Arabic to see the inherent dangers of its face. Islam remains a dangerous cult.
Any Arab knows Rabb means Lord. I understand that you are a non-Arab Slav and have fallen prey to this deceptive talk.
What is this nonsense of yours that Rabb is prefered over Abba? By whose authority? Yours? It certainly is not by the Holy Spirit of God.

Your statement about fatherhood is very belittling and insulting to all god-fearing fathers. Your god must not be the founder/father of the world. It can only be demonic. Did you have a terrible experience with your father that it blurred the role of true fatherhood? You did post negative experiences. I know that your Muhammed did not have a personal relationship with his father since he died while Muhammed was an infant. He had substitutes. Perhaps, this understanding of a personal fatherly relationship is missing within Islam.
You see Abdur in Christianity we believe and accept the role of Allah as loving, heavenly Father. In no way does this take away from His Lordship. That's like saying Allah is preferable over Rabb.

By the way www.answering-Islam is an excellent website for learning the problems in Islam.
Abdur, your personal interpretation of Islam does not cut it nor are you an authoritative speaker for Islam. It does not matter what name brand you subscribe to. You seriously need to seek the truth about Christ and His Church in an objective manner. Your studies of Islam are subjective and hinder you from knowing the fullness of the truth. Sufi Islam is not the adaquate way of life in seeking to glorify Allah. However, it is the lesser of evils in comparison to Sunni and Shia Islam.

No, it just isn't true that Christians suffer terribly in all Muslims countries. I spent most of my adult life "traveling the world" and from the Balkans to Central Asia I have seen Christians living full, free, and productive lives in the midst of Muslim majorities. I can't say the same for Muslims living in Greece and Bulgaria. (However, that situation is improving and in very positive ways.) The Coptic Christian situation is criminal, especially when one understands how they played a pivotal part in the defeat of the Crusaders by Muslim forces. The Copts deserve far better treatment by the Egyptian government and the Muslims of Egypt.

But, like I said, Islam has much to learn from the West about pluralism and democracy. American Muslims have already learned these leasons and are living by them.

BTW: Muslims do not believe in blood redemption in the way that Christians do. In other words, we not believe in substitutionary redemption or that one can die for the sins of another.
We are not ignorant of the Christian dogma of redemption.

Yes, Muhammed was merely a man and he was a sinner. That is why I believe in him and follow him, for I am also a worthless sinner dependent on the grace of Allah for my salvation, just as Muhammed (peace be upon him) was.
He was merely a man.

Salaam,

Abdur

Abdur,

Have ever read and studied any of the Historical evidence that we have on Jesus Christ? There is real proof their to justify our Church. However, the followers of Mohammed (May God Judge Him According To His Deads) have no such prove. They just believe what a man wrote in the desert without any other evidence. Doesn't that strike you as odd?

Secondly, have you ever heard of the Mormons? They have a prophet named Joseph Smith who they said has the true word of God and they have Millions of followers. Anybody can claim to be a prophet and convence people they are right. But not many can raise themselves from the Dead!

Praise Jesus Christ the True God!

Man i am the worst typer and speller Deads = Deeds
+ all of my other mistakes...

Rum,

You are militant enough to be a Muslim. And now you are running this Forum? What are you afraid of? I thought Christians believed in the free expression of religion? How can you condemn Muslims and accuse them of suppressing religious free speech when you would do the same? That is insane.

You are an Arab Christian with an Arab Christians understanding of Islam. But the Arabs are not the only Muslims and there are many non-Arab Muslims (who comprise the majority of Muslims) who disagree with the Arab "brand." I am one of those non-Arab Muslims.


My father was a great man and we were very close (The Peace of Allah be with him.) My father would forgive you and so do I, even if I do find your pseudo-Freudian nonsense vulgar.


But you are not a good witness to your religion.

I must assume that Orthodoxy has taught you to be cruel and vulgar. The Orthodox discussion (?) groups are the most rhetorically violent discussion groups on the Web. That speaks ill of your religion just as the violence of Muslims speaks ill of Islam.


"All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God." All! And that is why it is so easy to turn the other cheek.

But you are not an expert on Islam and so, I just continue to turn the other cheek and forgive you.

"The hermitage of Jesus

Is the Sufi's table spread;

Take heed, O sick one,

Never forsake this doorway."

Have a good day, Rum.

Abdur

[ 01-21-2002: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

Dear Friends,

It is good that I may address myself to both Orthodox and Catholics here at the same time . . .

To attack anyone's religion, as you have Abdur's, is one of the most unChristian acts we can ever do.

I know of what I speak since I angered our friend, Serge, and did this by way of deliberately provoking him in a way that brings no credit to me.

There are ways in which we may witness to our faith in the Lord Jesus without resorting to put-downs or attacks such as are contained in this thread.

I know that Dr. John was seriously disturbed with my reticence to jump to Christianity's defence at one point . . .

But there is nothing in what Abdur has said that could justify the rhetorical anger with which he has been met here.

I feel that I must agree with Abdur's own assessment as he has written it.

I don't want to get drawn into an argument about theology and comparative religions. I'm just calling attention to tone and word choice.

Alex

Abdur,

Becareful of what your post here, "You are militant enough to be a Muslim. And now you are running this Forum? What are you afraid of? I thought Christians believed in the free expression of religion? How can you condemn Muslims and accuse them of suppressing religious free speech when you would do the same? That is insane." Need I remind you that you are a quest here. Your thoughts are welcome but I believe that personal attacks are not.

Orthodox Catholic,

"But there is nothing in what Abdur has said that could justify the rhetorical anger with which he has been met here." I see no rhetorical anger here but simply stating facts. Could it be that Political correctness has infected or minds so much that we can not stand for what is right and truthful?

Dear RC@work,

No political correctness here, my Catholic friend!

In witnessing to the truth of Christ we need to be gentle, welcoming and understanding, as the Lord Jesus was and is with us.

And in conversing with those of other faiths we need to be respectful, open and courteous.

As Catholics, let us take for our example in this that of His Holiness the Pope.

On the other hand, the experience of having a Catholic defend him is probably a very good one for our brother, Rum Orthodox.

Do you see how we value you, Rum?

Alex

[QUOTE]Originally posted by aRomanCatholic@Work:
[QB]Abdur,

"Need I remind you that you are a quest here."

Quest? Freudian slip?

Yes, I do need to remind myself that I am a guest here.

However, Rum insulted my father's honor and used demeaning language that is not permissible in my culture. I will always defend my father's honor.

If that is not the Christian tradition, then I ask your forgiveness.

Abdur

[ 01-21-2002: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

Dear Abdur,
Bismillah Ar-Rahman Ar-Rahim!

To defend one's father and his honour is also a Christian tradition.

What is not is to have him and it attacked in the first place.

Salaam Alekum,

Alex

The highest form of honor:

THE YOUNG SUFI'S LOVE FOR GOD

Three young Sufis were condemned to death by the Sultan for heresy. One stepped forward, asking to be beheaded first. The Sultan was amazed, and asked why a man in the prime of life should seek death so eagerly.


The Sufi replied that every moment in life is precious because it can be spent in remembrance of the Beloved, and he wished to give his brothers the extra moments of life by dying first. "One moment of this world is better than a thousand years of the next world, because this is the place of service and that is the place of proximity, and proximity is gained by service."


The Sultan was so impressed by the young Sufi's love for God that he pardoned all three and said, "Ask a boon."
They replied, "The only boon we ask of you is that you should forget us, and neither make us your favourites nor banish us from your court, for your favour and displeasure are alike to us."


The Sultan wept, and dismissed them with honour.

Dear Abdur,

Bismillah Ar-Rahman Ar-Rahim!

St Augustine, Bishop of Hippo in Africa, once wrote:

"There are those who are outside the Church but seem to be inside. And there are those inside the Church, but seem to be outside."

Salaam Alekum,

Alex

One must love the Prophet Jesus to love peace:

"Just because you hold the sword, a man should not be killed---

nothing is umremembered in God's eyes.

The swordblade was not fashioned for oppression or villainy, nor grapes for the wine-press harvested.

Jesus by the wayside saw a body slain, tossed aside; he touched his finger to his lips in wonder.

'Who did you kill,' he asked, 'for you so basely to be slain? And who will kill the killer who killed you?'

Do not raise your hand to cause someone pain,

lest you find a fist to bring you greater pain."

Nasr Khosrow

If Christians and Muslims would only give Jesus room to stand between us, we would never harm one another. What believer could ever harm another in the presence of Jesus, the Spirit of God?

But, more than likely, we will not do what God demands, but what satan commands.

Who do we really love the most?

Who is our true master?

Yet,as it is recorded in the Qur'an, the Christians are closest to us in faith. There is room for optimism.

Abdur

[ 01-21-2002: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

Abdur,

The book that Mohammed (May God Judge Him) wrote the Qu'ran also states, "Do not take Christians and Jews for friends. They are friends among themselves. Surely God will judge the unbelievers" Therefore, as much as I would like to believe you and take you as my friend your faith forbids it. I wonder sometimes what kind of religion would forbid friendships?

This kind:

(You also must be careful about the context of a verse. Muslims are allowed to marry both Jews and Christians. I certainly would consider that a very special "friendship.")________


__________________________________________________
Anglican-Muslim agreement
ACNS 2830 LAMBETH PALACE 18 January 2002

Archbishop to sign
Anglican-Muslim agreement

The Archbishop of Canterbury, Dr George Carey, is to sign an historic agreement with the Grand Imam of al-Azhar al-Sharif, Dr Mohamed Sayed Tantawy, putting into place arrangements for a programme of dialogue between Anglicans and Sunni Muslims. The signing will take place during a ceremony at Lambeth Palace on January 30th.


The agreement, which is the fruit of talks and negotiations between Anglican and Sunni Muslim scholars over several years, sets out the structures for a formal process of discussion, debate and agreement and details the principles and expectations on which such talks can be based.
Dr Carey said the move was deeply encouraging:
"I'm delighted that we have found so much common ground and that we are now able to move ahead in our understanding of one another. We have convictions we can share and it is in understanding what it is that unites us as well as what divides us which makes this such a challenging and rewarding endeavour. Deepening dialogue between people of different faiths has never come at so crucial a time for the world."


The University of al-Azhar al-Sharif in Cairo is over a thousand years old and is an international centre for Sunni Muslim scholars. Usually known in Arabic as 'the honoured Azhar', its Grand Imam, Dr Tantawy, is acknowledged as Egypt's senior Islamic figure and holder of one of the most respected positions in Sunni Islam worldwide.
Dr Carey's time as Archbishop of Canterbury has been marked by a growing respect between Muslim and Anglican leaders. Dr Carey has twice lectured at al-Azhar, in 1995 and 1999 and Dr Tantawy visited Lambeth Palace in 1997. Also this month, in a separate development, Dr Carey is hosting a major seminar at Lambeth Palace involving Christian and Islamic scholars.

Text of the dialogue agreement between al-Azhar al-Sharif and the Anglican Communion:

A PROPOSAL FOR THE DIALOGUE BETWEEN THE ANGLICAN COMMUNION AND AL-AZHAR AL-SHARIF

We affirm the importance of building on the excellent relations between the Anglican Communion and al-Azhar al-Sharif.

We acknowledge the brotherly relations between the Grand Sheikh of al-Azhar, Dr Mohamed Sayed Tantawy and Dr George Carey, the Archbishop of Canterbury and the President of the Anglican Communion.


We believe that friendship which overcomes religious, ethnic and national differences is a gift of the Creator in whom we all believe.

We recognise that both sides need to accept each other in a straightforward way so as to be able to convey the message of peace to the world.

We believe that direct dialogue results in restoration of the image of each in the eyes of the other.
Continuing from the visit of Dr Carey to al-Azhar al-Sharif in October 1995 and the visit of Dr Tantawy, the Grand Sheikh of al-Azhar al-Sharif to Lambeth Palace in 1997 and the return visit of Dr Carey to al-Azhar al-Sharif in November 1999,
and because of our common faith in God and our responsibility to witness against indifference to religion on the one hand and religious fanaticism on the other,

We hope that we may contribute to international efforts to achieve justice, peace and the welfare of all humanity,
resourced by the positive experiences in our long history as Christians and Muslims living together both in Egypt and the United Kingdom and many other parts of the world.

In consequence of this, Dr George Carey, the President of the Anglican Communion, has appointed the following members to the Interfaith
Commission:

The Revd Canon Dr Christopher Lamb
The Rt Revd Bishop Mouneer Hanna Anis, Bishop in Egypt with North Africa
The Rt Revd David Smith, Bishop of Bradford, UK
The members of the Permanent Committee of al-Azhar al-Sharif for Dialogue on Monotheistic Religions are:
Sheikh Fawzy El Zefzaf, President
Dr Ali El Samman, Vice President
Ambassador Dr Ahmed Maray
Dr Mustaffa Al Shakfah
Sheikh Abu Agour
Ambassador Nabil Badre
Representatives of both sides met in al-Azhar on 10 and 11 September 2001 and discussed the proposal for the dialogue between the Anglican Communion and al-Azhar al-Sharif with the hope of achieving the following goals:

To encourage Anglicans to understand Islam and to encourage Muslims to understand the Christian faith.

To share together in solving problems and conflicts that happen sometimes between Muslims and Christians in different parts of the world, and to encourage religious leaders to use their influence for the purpose of reconciliation and peace making.

To work together against injustice and the abuse of human rights among different nationalities and spreading the good teaching of both Islam and Christianity.

To encourage institutions on both sides to play a positive role in development.

To achieve these goals the following decisions were taken:
A Joint Committee will be established from both sides composed of a Chairman and two members from each side already appointed. It may be possible in the future to add new members but each side will inform the other about its membership.
This Joint Committee will meet at least once a year in Egypt and the United Kingdom alternately. Each delegation will cover its expenses for travel and accommodation and could meet more than once a year if necessary.
At the end of each meeting a Press Release will be issued. The text of the communiqué must be agreed by the Joint Committee before publication. No information about papers presented to the Joint Committee will be released outside it without the agreement of both sides.
__________________________________________________

[ 01-21-2002: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

Abdur,
I am passionate for the truth revealed in Christ and His Church. My understnding of free expression of religion is that its contents be true and objective. One can express lies freely but I will not buy into them or allow them to contaminate the unknowing. There is harm in your words of expression. I have challenged them more than once but you keep evading to answer. That is the nature of the Muslim, Arab or non-Arab. What is insane is belief and veneration of the Quran. I guess heresies come and go in these forums. That's why you keep posting them. I think there is an advantage to posting heresies: to bring out the truth so heresy is no longer.
Orthodoxy has taught me to expose darkness with the Light of Christ which is not found in the person of your Muhammed. I do consider myself a scholar on Islam. In fact, I received my BA degree as I have told you was in Islamic studies. You can bet that I gave my "heretical" Muslima professor hard times. I even scored higher on exams than anyone else. What always got to me was that she would not grant me a 100% on the essay exams because she claimed I would be usurping Allah's knowledge! I didn't think Allah was allowed in a secularist institution especially where Islamic studies was headed by a heretical Muslima! Boy, she would get quite emotional at times with others(Muslims & non-Muslims) and yours truly!
My experiences with non-Arab Muslims is that they are no different than their Arab counterparts. In fact, they are worse. Remember, these are my experiences. Also, I do know many non-Arab Muslims that are good people but I am afriad to do business with them. I really do not trust them anymore than I can trust Arab Muslims. When I speak of Muslims I am only referring to practicing Muslims. In dealing business with these kinds of people they have a strange mindset. I get tired of hearing about hilal and haram way of doing business. I get tired of the Muslim asking me what my religion is. If I am in a good mood I tell them "Meseehee, il-Hamdillah (Christian, Praise Be To Allah)".
By the way, I never insulted your father (Allah yerhumo)since I have no reason to do so. I do not know him. All you had to do to answer my question was to simply reply yes or no in regards to the role of fatherhood in your life. The problem with you my friend is that you don't answer questions and jump to conclusions. I thought you as a Sufi would have a greater understanding of the role of Allah as Father of all creation. Obviously not. Your brand of Islam is your personal, mindful creation. Another word for the Creator is Father. But Muslims like you continue with your war on semantics until we are under your submission of comprehension. Absurdity is to be found in your statement that Rabb is prefered over Abba. Please take Arabic lessons for vocabulary comprehension. Stay away from dishonest Islamic polemics and mistranslations of the Quran into the English or Slavic languages.

Nobility is no more than humble service to the Creator and kindness to all creatures.

In this context, all of God's children can be nobles and aristocrats of the highest order.

What else matters but love and forgiveness and humbling your body and soul before Allah? And to believe in the Jesus who walked the Galilee doing good, and like a fragrant rose, made life sweet for those whose lives were broken and burdened with sin and oppression, sickness, and the fear of living and the fear of dieing.

Whether Muslim or Christian, what else matters but to be another Jesus?

If the Orthodox are more concerned with "winning" theological jihads, then Allah will send us into the world to do the work of Jesus while you content yourselves with quibbling over trivia?

My experience is that the Orthodox seem to be obsessed with theological skirmishes. What does that have to do with preaching the good news? One of the reasons Albanian and Bosnian Christians converted to Islam was so they could escape the chronic theological wrangling of the churches. For us, the coming of Islam was like the new dawn of life and liberation.

Christian converts to Islam all have at least one thing in common: they are sick of the theological wrangling they endured in their former religions. That is why we are advancing and you are retreating.

But will you ever learn?

Souls before semantics.

That is the Sufi way.

Abdur

[ 01-22-2002: Message edited by: Abdur Islamovic ]

Abdur,

Orthodoxy believes in what Jesus Christ taught. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the light NOBODY comes to the Father except by me!" You must believe in Jesus and the Church for which he started. There is no other further revelation needed.

In my eyes you have failed miserably to prove that Islam is peaceful and from God. If you would like a fruitful discussion of the two faiths then please respond to our questions. Dodging questions only strengthens my Faith in my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!

Don't get me wrong I respect you as a person and your faith. But I do not nor shall I ever except Islam. From some of the Convert stories that I have read (Those Who Converted From Islam To Christianity) it comes clear to me that Islam distorts the Faith and hides behind a Vail of 1/2 truths. Abdur, we would like to un-lift that vail if you would allow us.

[ 01-22-2002: Message edited by: aRomanCatholic@Work ]

Dear Abdur,

Bismillah Ar-Rahman Ar-Rahim!

"Nothing else matters than to be another Jesus."

On this point we are not only one in faith, dear Brother, but you have powerfully reminded me of what my Saviour and Lord taught and continues to teach today!

Salaam Alekum,

Alex