John Paul the Great's Beatification site - 06/29/05 03:49 PM
Re: John Paul the Great's Beatification site - 06/29/05 05:57 PM
Miracles happening everywhere...
http://www.local6.com/news/4660011/detail.html
I read last week alone they received reports of posssible miracles.
http:/
I read last week alone they received reports of posssible miracles.
Re: John Paul the Great's Beatification site - 06/29/05 06:33 PM
Thanks, Alex and Pani Rose, for these websites. Wonderful!
Re: John Paul the Great's Beatification site - 06/29/05 07:06 PM
Dear Friends,
As the Cause of Pope John Paul opened yesterday, does this mean he can be on the "fast-track" for beatification, perhaps even in the fall?
I can't imagine how many people will want to travel to Rome for Bl. John Paul the Great's beatification ceremony!
Also, is there a website that lists ALL the Saints and Blessed made so by John Paul the Great?
Alex
As the Cause of Pope John Paul opened yesterday, does this mean he can be on the "fast-track" for beatification, perhaps even in the fall?
I can't imagine how many people will want to travel to Rome for Bl. John Paul the Great's beatification ceremony!
Also, is there a website that lists ALL the Saints and Blessed made so by John Paul the Great?
Alex
Re: John Paul the Great's Beatification site - 06/29/05 11:53 PM
Hello
In the past the Catholic Church put enormous care in the procedures to examine if someone truly applied for sainthood. Catholic saints of the past were known to have given great aportations to Christianity, awesome theological virtues, miracles, undoubted orthodoxy or a great service to their Church. This is true for all the popes who were canonized in the past.
I would like to ask Catholics if you really think that John Paul II's pontificate was that succesful while it's evident that the Roman Church went through a serious crisis: massive defections and serious troubles with the clergy (specialy in America).
It's true that John Paul II was greatly popular but was it because of religious issues or because of his individual personal charism? Do people know him for having taught truths of Christianity or wordly causes (world peace, brotherhood between men nd different religions?)??
In the past the Catholic Church put enormous care in the procedures to examine if someone truly applied for sainthood. Catholic saints of the past were known to have given great aportations to Christianity, awesome theological virtues, miracles, undoubted orthodoxy or a great service to their Church. This is true for all the popes who were canonized in the past.
I would like to ask Catholics if you really think that John Paul II's pontificate was that succesful while it's evident that the Roman Church went through a serious crisis: massive defections and serious troubles with the clergy (specialy in America).
It's true that John Paul II was greatly popular but was it because of religious issues or because of his individual personal charism? Do people know him for having taught truths of Christianity or wordly causes (world peace, brotherhood between men nd different religions?)??
Re: John Paul the Great's Beatification site - 06/30/05 02:04 AM
In a sense, I have asked similar questions. I believe JPII was a holy and saintly man who reached out to the world and made the church better known. But he wasn't that great as an administrator or manager and he even alluded to that himself. But it seems to me that under JPII, everyone but the Vatican cleaning lady was declared a saint anyway. So I guess what's one more? 
Re: John Paul the Great's Beatification site - 06/30/05 02:44 AM
Dear Mexican you said:
It's true that John Paul II was greatly popular but was it because of religious issues or because of his individual personal charism? Do people know him for having taught truths of Christianity or wordly causes (world peace, brotherhood between men nd different religions?)??
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I say:
Actually I saw no charism in Pope John Paul II. How in the world can someone with such a delibitating illness have any charism? What I saw was 'heroic virtue' way beyond what any human being can possibly endure. It was torment merely to watch what John Paul II put himself through for the sake of humanity. Certainly he must have been God inspired.
...And certainly a saint in anyone's eyes and also a great Pope. He has changed the course of history.
In Christ,
Zenovia
It's true that John Paul II was greatly popular but was it because of religious issues or because of his individual personal charism? Do people know him for having taught truths of Christianity or wordly causes (world peace, brotherhood between men nd different religions?)??
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I say:
Actually I saw no charism in Pope John Paul II. How in the world can someone with such a delibitating illness have any charism? What I saw was 'heroic virtue' way beyond what any human being can possibly endure. It was torment merely to watch what John Paul II put himself through for the sake of humanity. Certainly he must have been God inspired.
...And certainly a saint in anyone's eyes and also a great Pope. He has changed the course of history.
In Christ,
Zenovia
Re: John Paul the Great's Beatification site - 06/30/05 02:55 AM
Dear Byzantn you said:
But it seems to me that under JPII, everyone but the Vatican cleaning lady was declared a saint anyway. So I guess what's one more?
I say:
Pope John Paul II didn't pull these saints out of the air. Actually they had been sitting around waiting for canonization for years... decades and even centuries. As an example of the slow process at the Vatican, Joan of Arc was not canonized until the 1920's. Somehow I feel it had something to do with the miracles occuring in France during World War I.
There is a lot of work involved in the process of canonization, especially if it is someone that died centuries before. John Paul II decided to tackle the problem. Thankfully he is being rewarded for his work and being canonized quickly by Pope Benedict.
In Christ,
Zenovia
But it seems to me that under JPII, everyone but the Vatican cleaning lady was declared a saint anyway. So I guess what's one more?
I say:
Pope John Paul II didn't pull these saints out of the air. Actually they had been sitting around waiting for canonization for years... decades and even centuries. As an example of the slow process at the Vatican, Joan of Arc was not canonized until the 1920's. Somehow I feel it had something to do with the miracles occuring in France during World War I.
There is a lot of work involved in the process of canonization, especially if it is someone that died centuries before. John Paul II decided to tackle the problem. Thankfully he is being rewarded for his work and being canonized quickly by Pope Benedict.
In Christ,
Zenovia
Re: John Paul the Great's Beatification site - 06/30/05 03:59 AM
Zenovia wrote: Actually I saw no charism in Pope John Paul II. How in the world can someone with such a delibitating illness have any charism?
Dear Zenovia, Apparently you didn't see the "young" John Paul II 20 years ago in his prime.
I attended his Masses in San Antonio, Krakow, Skoczow, and Olomouc, and I was spiritually uplifted by his witness. I cannot think of any other living human being who has inspired me more.
I read that Pope Benedict wants now to slow down the process of canonization, which John Paul accelarated like no one before him.
One of the great deficiencies of Protestantism is that it has no saints. But I have known several in my life (though likely none of them will be canonized). I have known one very saintly RC bishop who, blinded in one eye by a burglar, forgave his assailant & did many other similar charitable acts. I pray to that bishop often now, as I do to John Paul II, for his intercession, for I am convinced he has his eternal reward. I was blessed to know some of the details of the bishop's humble life, but most did not know. Was he a saint? In my eyes, without doubt. The Roman Church, in its legalistic manner, makes it it into a very complicated procedure. But I do not wait for official canonization to ask for the intercession of saints I have knwon in my own life.
Stojgniev
Dear Zenovia, Apparently you didn't see the "young" John Paul II 20 years ago in his prime.
I attended his Masses in San Antonio, Krakow, Skoczow, and Olomouc, and I was spiritually uplifted by his witness. I cannot think of any other living human being who has inspired me more.
I read that Pope Benedict wants now to slow down the process of canonization, which John Paul accelarated like no one before him.
One of the great deficiencies of Protestantism is that it has no saints. But I have known several in my life (though likely none of them will be canonized). I have known one very saintly RC bishop who, blinded in one eye by a burglar, forgave his assailant & did many other similar charitable acts. I pray to that bishop often now, as I do to John Paul II, for his intercession, for I am convinced he has his eternal reward. I was blessed to know some of the details of the bishop's humble life, but most did not know. Was he a saint? In my eyes, without doubt. The Roman Church, in its legalistic manner, makes it it into a very complicated procedure. But I do not wait for official canonization to ask for the intercession of saints I have knwon in my own life.
Stojgniev
Re: John Paul the Great's Beatification site - 06/30/05 11:26 AM
John Paul II did accelerate the process of canonization and I have heard - don't really remember this personally - even changed the rules of the process. This probably allowed the canonization of some who might not have been canonized using the old rules, or at least not canonized at this time. The problem is that so many were canonized that the process now looks a bit suspect. Now we have hundreds of local saints who remain obscure to the church at large. I wouldn't be surprised if the majority of Catholics haven't even heard of most of them.
Re: John Paul the Great's Beatification site - 06/30/05 11:43 AM
If one were to judge John Paul II of +eternal memory+ in part on the troubles in the Church in Western Europe, the United States and Latin America, then one must also judge him on his role in the end of Communism in Eastern Europe.
Those dioceses (I am referring to the Latin Church in particular) who actually listened to John Paul II are not the ones that have had the most problems. Rather, that is where the Church has blossomed.
Those dioceses with bishops with their own agendas by and large are the ones with the biggest problems.
True - JPII was not a great administrator, or even a good one. He was an evangelist. His writings and encyclicals were profound and prolific. How much JPII can be blamed for those who didn't listen to him and did what they wanted is a cause for serious discussion.
Those dioceses (I am referring to the Latin Church in particular) who actually listened to John Paul II are not the ones that have had the most problems. Rather, that is where the Church has blossomed.
Those dioceses with bishops with their own agendas by and large are the ones with the biggest problems.
True - JPII was not a great administrator, or even a good one. He was an evangelist. His writings and encyclicals were profound and prolific. How much JPII can be blamed for those who didn't listen to him and did what they wanted is a cause for serious discussion.
Re: John Paul the Great's Beatification site - 06/30/05 01:05 PM
Dear Friends,
As for the many saints and blessed declared by St John Paul the Great - let's examine this in a different light, shall we?
The majority (90%+) of saints in the calendar are local saints.
From the beginning, the local Church in the person of the bishop declared local saints for local veneration - this is still the case throughout Orthodoxy.
In Greece, as I understand it, there are saints who are so in the opinion of a local village and perhaps in that of the next - but that is where the veneration stops. There are thousands of such, in fact.
And these local saints are known by the local people whose voice first canonized them ahead of the Church.
Rome has, since the 16th century, insisted that ONLY it has the right to beatify or canonize - even though local RC bishops in Europe have, since then, continued to beatify saints for their local dioceses and, later, Rome allowed their cult.
St John Paul the Great brought back a lot of the earlier tradition of the "local saint" by travelling throughout the world and bringing the Beatification and Canonization ceremony back to the local Church.
He was a church leader who was VERY conscious of history and traditional practice. In fact, his so-called "traditional RC" detractors, as we EC's know full well, aren't "traditional" at all - they're ecclesial memory only goes back to Trent and not sooner than the 13th century in western church history.
Moreover, Pope Benedict XVI is going even FURTHER along these lines by delegating local bishops to actually do the Beatifications! (This happened as recently as this week in Poland during a Congress where three Polish priests were beatified, one a martyr under soviet communism and the ceremony was conducted by bishops).
And when St John Paul the Great was in Ukraine five years ago, (and I don't think I've ever heard our EC stalwarts here mention this even once ), he simply was present for the declaration of the New Martyrs et al. as saints by the UGCC!
(The majority of those beatified by the late Pope were Martyrs - nothing suspect about that as the early Church often included THOUSANDS of martyrs in her calendar, just as soon as they were killed - in the Greek Church, St George of Ioannina, I believe, was slowly being tortured by his executioner as the Litia service was being conducted in the Church. A boy at the front door kept watch as the Priest read out the names of the Saints . . . as St George's head came off, the boy shouted out loud 'George is dead!' at which moment the Priest ended the Litia service with the words 'and of the Holy New Martyr George of Ioannina and all Thy Saints, Amen!'
Add to this the fact that over the years the canonization process in Rome has become rather scandalous in terms of the large sums of money required to "scientifically prove" a miracle - effectively punishing poor Catholic countries that could not raise the sums for their saintly candidates.
No, as someone who has studied hagiography for quite a few years now, I APPLAUD St John Paul the Great's iniatives in this respect - also those of Pope Benedict, his successor.
Alex
As for the many saints and blessed declared by St John Paul the Great - let's examine this in a different light, shall we?
The majority (90%+) of saints in the calendar are local saints.
From the beginning, the local Church in the person of the bishop declared local saints for local veneration - this is still the case throughout Orthodoxy.
In Greece, as I understand it, there are saints who are so in the opinion of a local village and perhaps in that of the next - but that is where the veneration stops. There are thousands of such, in fact.
And these local saints are known by the local people whose voice first canonized them ahead of the Church.
Rome has, since the 16th century, insisted that ONLY it has the right to beatify or canonize - even though local RC bishops in Europe have, since then, continued to beatify saints for their local dioceses and, later, Rome allowed their cult.
St John Paul the Great brought back a lot of the earlier tradition of the "local saint" by travelling throughout the world and bringing the Beatification and Canonization ceremony back to the local Church.
He was a church leader who was VERY conscious of history and traditional practice. In fact, his so-called "traditional RC" detractors, as we EC's know full well, aren't "traditional" at all - they're ecclesial memory only goes back to Trent and not sooner than the 13th century in western church history.
Moreover, Pope Benedict XVI is going even FURTHER along these lines by delegating local bishops to actually do the Beatifications! (This happened as recently as this week in Poland during a Congress where three Polish priests were beatified, one a martyr under soviet communism and the ceremony was conducted by bishops).
And when St John Paul the Great was in Ukraine five years ago, (and I don't think I've ever heard our EC stalwarts here mention this even once
), he simply was present for the declaration of the New Martyrs et al. as saints by the UGCC!(The majority of those beatified by the late Pope were Martyrs - nothing suspect about that as the early Church often included THOUSANDS of martyrs in her calendar, just as soon as they were killed - in the Greek Church, St George of Ioannina, I believe, was slowly being tortured by his executioner as the Litia service was being conducted in the Church. A boy at the front door kept watch as the Priest read out the names of the Saints . . . as St George's head came off, the boy shouted out loud 'George is dead!' at which moment the Priest ended the Litia service with the words 'and of the Holy New Martyr George of Ioannina and all Thy Saints, Amen!'
Add to this the fact that over the years the canonization process in Rome has become rather scandalous in terms of the large sums of money required to "scientifically prove" a miracle - effectively punishing poor Catholic countries that could not raise the sums for their saintly candidates.
No, as someone who has studied hagiography for quite a few years now, I APPLAUD St John Paul the Great's iniatives in this respect - also those of Pope Benedict, his successor.
Alex
Re: John Paul the Great's Beatification site - 06/30/05 01:24 PM
Dear Mexican,
You are probably the ONLY Mexican who is not enthusiastic about John Paul the Great!
The WORLD acknowledges him as a great peace-maker.
When he was here in Toronto for World Youth Day, I saw Mormons open up refreshment stands for the Catholic pilgrims.
I saw Jews, Muslims and Hindus go to see the Pope (who acknowledged their presence and thanked them for coming).
My uncle, a non-practicing Jew, asked me if one needed to be a Catholic to go to see the Pope - I told him that everyone is invited.
He told me that he not only respected the Pope but also the many Catholic pilgrims because "they have a strong faith."
I've never heard him speak like that before, ever.
No, what we had in Rome was a truly great saint.
And, most importantly, the "litmus test" for his true orthodoxy was his GREAT devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Theotokos.
Before he ascended to the Throne of Peter, I thought the Roman Catholic church had forgotten all about Marian devotion.
He restored that in a large way, as he should have.
Again, traditional RC detractors of the Pope like to use St Louis de Montfort as their, forgive me, "poster boy."
And Pope John Paul the Great was one of the most earnest students of Montfort and wanted to declare him a Doctor of the Church.
There was no one who was more devoted to the Rosary - and yet Society of St Piux X types ATTACK him for bringing in the luminous mysteries.
Their argument? That those mysteries take away from Mary . . .
What stupidity and nonsense! Do these people have brains?!
Anyway, everyone have a nice day, y'hear?
"Pray unto God for us, O Holy Father, John Paul the Great, pleasing to God, for we earnestly approach you as to our speedy helper and intercessor for the salvation of our souls. Amen!"
Alex
You are probably the ONLY Mexican who is not enthusiastic about John Paul the Great!
The WORLD acknowledges him as a great peace-maker.
When he was here in Toronto for World Youth Day, I saw Mormons open up refreshment stands for the Catholic pilgrims.
I saw Jews, Muslims and Hindus go to see the Pope (who acknowledged their presence and thanked them for coming).
My uncle, a non-practicing Jew, asked me if one needed to be a Catholic to go to see the Pope - I told him that everyone is invited.
He told me that he not only respected the Pope but also the many Catholic pilgrims because "they have a strong faith."
I've never heard him speak like that before, ever.
No, what we had in Rome was a truly great saint.
And, most importantly, the "litmus test" for his true orthodoxy was his GREAT devotion to the Blessed Virgin Mary, the Theotokos.
Before he ascended to the Throne of Peter, I thought the Roman Catholic church had forgotten all about Marian devotion.
He restored that in a large way, as he should have.
Again, traditional RC detractors of the Pope like to use St Louis de Montfort as their, forgive me, "poster boy."
And Pope John Paul the Great was one of the most earnest students of Montfort and wanted to declare him a Doctor of the Church.
There was no one who was more devoted to the Rosary - and yet Society of St Piux X types ATTACK him for bringing in the luminous mysteries.
Their argument? That those mysteries take away from Mary . . .
What stupidity and nonsense! Do these people have brains?!
Anyway, everyone have a nice day, y'hear?
"Pray unto God for us, O Holy Father, John Paul the Great, pleasing to God, for we earnestly approach you as to our speedy helper and intercessor for the salvation of our souls. Amen!"
Alex
Re: John Paul the Great's Beatification site - 06/30/05 01:35 PM
I would still like to see JPIIs canonization put aside for a few years. Right now, it's too influenced by the hype and hysteria evident in some of the posts here. If the original rules were enforced, in 5 years a rational examination could be made, and it would be more difficult for anyone to say he was canonized based on charisma and personality. There's no question that the man lived a saintly and exemplary life, and it's clear that he suffered greatly in his later years. Right now, there's just too much emotion and hysteria for any kind of rational examination to take place. This certainly takes nothing away from him, I just don't think it's the right time.
Re: John Paul the Great's Beatification site - 06/30/05 02:04 PM
Dear Charles,
I hope I don't come across as being "hyped" up about Saint John Paul the Great, Pope of Rome, Teacher of the Universal Church!
But there is nothing wrong about Rome beatifying him, even as early as October, to allow the many millions of Catholics to liturgically venerate him.
His canonization will doubtless take years.
His veneration is already occurring and it is the people of God who are demanding, calling on Rome to simply approve of what they are already doing.
Vox populi, Vox Dei, that sort of thing.
This veneration is leading people to live better Christian lives, to participate in the life of worship in the Church, to read the Pope's encyclicals and the Catholic Catechism, to pray the Rosary (oh, all right, now you're really turned off! )
The early Church, in fact, set no time limits on these sorts of things - it was and is led by the Spirit.
This reminds me of an Anglo-Catholic who once said, "If the Spirit is telling us that full Catholic unity is to be achieved in union with the Pope of Rome - then who are we to accuse the Spirit of 'bad theology?'"
It is the Holy Spirit who will lead the Church to do what HE wants done with the memory of Pope John Paul II.
That's quite sufficient for me!
Alex
I hope I don't come across as being "hyped" up about Saint John Paul the Great, Pope of Rome, Teacher of the Universal Church!
But there is nothing wrong about Rome beatifying him, even as early as October, to allow the many millions of Catholics to liturgically venerate him.
His canonization will doubtless take years.
His veneration is already occurring and it is the people of God who are demanding, calling on Rome to simply approve of what they are already doing.
Vox populi, Vox Dei, that sort of thing.
This veneration is leading people to live better Christian lives, to participate in the life of worship in the Church, to read the Pope's encyclicals and the Catholic Catechism, to pray the Rosary (oh, all right, now you're really turned off!
)The early Church, in fact, set no time limits on these sorts of things - it was and is led by the Spirit.
This reminds me of an Anglo-Catholic who once said, "If the Spirit is telling us that full Catholic unity is to be achieved in union with the Pope of Rome - then who are we to accuse the Spirit of 'bad theology?'"
It is the Holy Spirit who will lead the Church to do what HE wants done with the memory of Pope John Paul II.
That's quite sufficient for me!
Alex
Re: John Paul the Great's Beatification site - 06/30/05 02:37 PM
The Holy Spirit will do what He wills. He doesn't need a fan club or a media blitz directing Him, I think. Time will tell. I wouldn't be surprised to see the canonization take place, and who knows when. But there is a lot of hysteria surrounding this because of emotional attachment to the person of JPII. For example, all the "John Paul the Great" claims. History may determine that he deserves that title, but it may look back on his pontificate and view it differently. One can never know about such things. I think we are too close to this for a rational examination to take place. Too many are so emotionally involved at this time that such an examination would be extremely difficult. Even if I wanted JPII canonized - and you don't know that I do or don't - I would want that canonization based on verifiable events and rational arguments, not on emotional attachment to the man. And what's all this talk about the rosary? It's a fine Latin devotion with a long, distinguished, and verifiable history.
Time will tell. I wouldn't be surprised to see the canonization take place, and who knows when. But there is a lot of hysteria surrounding this because of emotional attachment to the person of JPII. For example, all the "John Paul the Great" claims. History may determine that he deserves that title, but it may look back on his pontificate and view it differently. One can never know about such things. I think we are too close to this for a rational examination to take place. Too many are so emotionally involved at this time that such an examination would be extremely difficult. Even if I wanted JPII canonized - and you don't know that I do or don't - I would want that canonization based on verifiable events and rational arguments, not on emotional attachment to the man. And what's all this talk about the rosary? It's a fine Latin devotion with a long, distinguished, and verifiable history.
Re: John Paul the Great's Beatification site - 06/30/05 02:56 PM
Dear Charles,
I'm happy that you admire the Rosary!
Your arguments for rational, calm consideration are duly noted.
But the voice of the people will be heard. St Francis of Assisi was canonized a saint just a few years after his death, I believe and there are many other examples.
The appellation of "the Great" is something that is now widely used, why not?
The only reason why the rule for time to elapse before a canonization takes place was to allow for people to pray and experience the benefit of miracles through someone's intercession - this still happens in a formal way on Mt Athos and I won't go into that.
But the person of Pope John Paul II is, thanks to the media and his universal fame, known to all of us.
I stood in his presence once, as well.
This is also why Mother Teresa was beatified so quickly as well - she was known and honoured as a saint during her lifetime.
I think there always will be excitement surrounding the person of Pope John Paul II.
Two of my Orthodox cousins in Ukraine went to attend the Papal Mass when he was there.
They are both now Ukrainian Catholics - and they told me about many others who not only became EC's after this experience, but who are now training to be priests.
I think there is good reason to be excited and "shakin' all over!"
(Don't you have "holy-rollers" where you are?)
Alex
I'm happy that you admire the Rosary!
Your arguments for rational, calm consideration are duly noted.
But the voice of the people will be heard. St Francis of Assisi was canonized a saint just a few years after his death, I believe and there are many other examples.
The appellation of "the Great" is something that is now widely used, why not?
The only reason why the rule for time to elapse before a canonization takes place was to allow for people to pray and experience the benefit of miracles through someone's intercession - this still happens in a formal way on Mt Athos and I won't go into that.
But the person of Pope John Paul II is, thanks to the media and his universal fame, known to all of us.
I stood in his presence once, as well.
This is also why Mother Teresa was beatified so quickly as well - she was known and honoured as a saint during her lifetime.
I think there always will be excitement surrounding the person of Pope John Paul II.
Two of my Orthodox cousins in Ukraine went to attend the Papal Mass when he was there.
They are both now Ukrainian Catholics - and they told me about many others who not only became EC's after this experience, but who are now training to be priests.
I think there is good reason to be excited and "shakin' all over!"
(Don't you have "holy-rollers" where you are?)
Alex
Re: John Paul the Great's Beatification site - 06/30/05 03:18 PM
Alex, I am delighted to be in 100% agreement with you, for once .
Those who don't think John Paul II had a good effect on the Church, even in this country, have very short memories. It is true the Church is paying the price for the horrible things that happened, mostly in the 60s through the 80s, but there has been and is a genuine renewal of faith and enthusiasm in the Church. I remember when I returned to the Church in 1979 [story here [caelumetterra.typepad.com] ] -at the Pope's Mass on the mall in DC- being a young Catholic was an abysmal prospect. Practically anyone who experienced grace in his or her life ended up as an Evangelical or Pentecostal, almost by default. There was little in the way of apologetic response, there were no Catholic radio stations, devotions like Eucharistic adoration and the rosary were seen as outdated, seminaries were, most of them, moral cesspools, etc etc.
All that has changed, radically, mostly because of John Paul. He cannot be canonized quickly enough, in my book!
-Daniel
. Those who don't think John Paul II had a good effect on the Church, even in this country, have very short memories. It is true the Church is paying the price for the horrible things that happened, mostly in the 60s through the 80s, but there has been and is a genuine renewal of faith and enthusiasm in the Church. I remember when I returned to the Church in 1979 [story here [caelumetterra.typepad.com] ] -at the Pope's Mass on the mall in DC- being a young Catholic was an abysmal prospect. Practically anyone who experienced grace in his or her life ended up as an Evangelical or Pentecostal, almost by default. There was little in the way of apologetic response, there were no Catholic radio stations, devotions like Eucharistic adoration and the rosary were seen as outdated, seminaries were, most of them, moral cesspools, etc etc.
All that has changed, radically, mostly because of John Paul. He cannot be canonized quickly enough, in my book!
-Daniel
Re: John Paul the Great's Beatification site - 06/30/05 03:51 PM
Dear father Daniel,
And neither can you, I would say!
Alex
And neither can you, I would say!
Alex
Re: John Paul the Great's Beatification site - 06/30/05 08:21 PM
Alex,
If you were in charge of the beatification effort, John Paul II would have been canonized already.
You have spoken eloquently and beautifully.
With deepest respect from this Latin of Polish descent,
Thank you!
(still waiting for you to make it to Uniontown!)
If you were in charge of the beatification effort, John Paul II would have been canonized already.
You have spoken eloquently and beautifully.
With deepest respect from this Latin of Polish descent,
Thank you!
(still waiting for you to make it to Uniontown!)
Re: John Paul the Great's Beatification site - 06/30/05 08:25 PM
Dear jw,
I"ll get there eventually!
And let's not forget the holy Pope's designations as "the Great" and "Doctor of the Church!"
We've got ambitions, you and I!
Happy Canada Day!
I'll try and focus on completing my akathist to Pope John Paul the Great . . . He'll be made a Saint before I'm done with it, it would seem . . .
Alex
I"ll get there eventually!
And let's not forget the holy Pope's designations as "the Great" and "Doctor of the Church!"
We've got ambitions, you and I!
Happy Canada Day!
I'll try and focus on completing my akathist to Pope John Paul the Great . . . He'll be made a Saint before I'm done with it, it would seem . . .
Alex
Re: John Paul the Great's Beatification site - 06/30/05 11:01 PM
I have a peculiar and novel idea. Why don't we let the Church canonize him since it alone has the authority to do so? You would think from some of these posts that if enough noise is made and enough publicity is generated, it will be a done deed. I don't think the process works quite like that.
Re: John Paul the Great's Beatification site - 07/01/05 07:11 PM
I hesitated at first before I decided to post this comment of mine. In the end I thought it was important to listen to both sides of a story before making up ones mind (which I have NOT made).
On this forum titles like "Saint Pope John Paul II" and "Pope John Paul the Great" have been used. Personally, I found the Pope to be a good pope in many ways but I hesitate to call him a saint.
The most obvious item of concern is the Pope�s failure to deal with the church's sex-abuse crisis. This failure alone raises questions about his "holiness" for me. Also his systematic changes to (small 't') traditions in the Church combined with departure of traditional liturgy again raises many questions about the Pope.
There are books like Vows of Silence [amazon.com] which have been written about the Pope which directly place him responsible for the perpetuation of Sex Crimes. Now just because two guys from the Anti-Catholic newspaper Boston Globe make a claim against the Pope doesn�t mean it is true.
I really wish the Pope did not eliminate the Devil's Advocate in the investigation of Saints. I would have more faith in the process.
I say let�s wait until the Church makes him a Saint before we start calling him Saint John Paul the Great.
On this forum titles like "Saint Pope John Paul II" and "Pope John Paul the Great" have been used. Personally, I found the Pope to be a good pope in many ways but I hesitate to call him a saint.
The most obvious item of concern is the Pope�s failure to deal with the church's sex-abuse crisis. This failure alone raises questions about his "holiness" for me. Also his systematic changes to (small 't') traditions in the Church combined with departure of traditional liturgy again raises many questions about the Pope.
There are books like Vows of Silence [amazon.com] which have been written about the Pope which directly place him responsible for the perpetuation of Sex Crimes. Now just because two guys from the Anti-Catholic newspaper Boston Globe make a claim against the Pope doesn�t mean it is true.
I really wish the Pope did not eliminate the Devil's Advocate in the investigation of Saints. I would have more faith in the process.
I say let�s wait until the Church makes him a Saint before we start calling him Saint John Paul the Great.
Re: John Paul the Great's Beatification site - 07/01/05 07:30 PM
Quote
I say let�s wait until the Church makes him a Saint before we start calling him Saint John Paul the Great.
Re: John Paul the Great's Beatification site - 07/02/05 07:49 AM
It isn't that I'm not enthusiastic.
I do acknowlege John Paul II's great qualities, his apostolic zeal, his desire to reach the people and to be near them.
My comments were mostly related to the Vatican Ostpolitik and the way many governments used the Pope's visit to their benefits.
I was reading the newspapers about John Paul II's first visit to Mexico in 1979: "Pope praises achievments of our working-class State", "Pope supports social reform in Latin America of which Mexico is pioneer".
The Vatican refused to canonize Father Pro and oher martyrs of the Christer War (until very recent times) and the anti-communist cruzade in order to avoid problems with the PRI regime.
They even collaborated with the government to build the new basilica for example (an enormous iron structure devoid of religious significance) while the beautiful baroque basilica was closed and many years later, opened as a museum. At that time many of the Roman bishops had actualy dismantelled their dioceses and the religious patrimony of the people was put in serious danger.
On the other side, John Paul II's visits did strenghten the faith of the people, they felt that he was close to them. He produced great writings during his last years as Pope, he condemned the "new bolshevism" (abortion, eufanasia, homosexuality, global capitalism.
I do acknowlege John Paul II's great qualities, his apostolic zeal, his desire to reach the people and to be near them.
My comments were mostly related to the Vatican Ostpolitik and the way many governments used the Pope's visit to their benefits.
I was reading the newspapers about John Paul II's first visit to Mexico in 1979: "Pope praises achievments of our working-class State", "Pope supports social reform in Latin America of which Mexico is pioneer".
The Vatican refused to canonize Father Pro and oher martyrs of the Christer War (until very recent times) and the anti-communist cruzade in order to avoid problems with the PRI regime.
They even collaborated with the government to build the new basilica for example (an enormous iron structure devoid of religious significance) while the beautiful baroque basilica was closed and many years later, opened as a museum. At that time many of the Roman bishops had actualy dismantelled their dioceses and the religious patrimony of the people was put in serious danger.
On the other side, John Paul II's visits did strenghten the faith of the people, they felt that he was close to them. He produced great writings during his last years as Pope, he condemned the "new bolshevism" (abortion, eufanasia, homosexuality, global capitalism.
Re: John Paul the Great's Beatification site - 07/02/05 02:48 PM
When - if - the Church declares John Paul II to be a saint, that's what I'll believe. Meanwhile, I remain at liberty to observe that this Pope presided over a collapse of orthodoxy and orthopraxis without precendent; that his interreligious stunts (koran kissing, etc.)gave practical encouragement to the radical indifferentism that has become mainstream in the Church in the West; that he did everything in his power to encourage the "cult of the Holy Father" according to which the objective content of the Catholic faith has become identified in the minds of many good people with the ideas and attitudes of the reigning pontiff; that his practical refusal to govern the Church has contributed in large part to the hideous sexual scandals laying wast to the material and spiritual goods of the Church.
John Paul the Great? A great human being certainly, a great saint perhaps. A Pope of the calibre of Ss. Leo and Gregory? Let's wait a while, shall we?
John Paul the Great? A great human being certainly, a great saint perhaps. A Pope of the calibre of Ss. Leo and Gregory? Let's wait a while, shall we?
Re: John Paul the Great's Beatification site - 07/02/05 03:20 PM
Quote
Originally posted by MTV:
When - if - the Church declares John Paul II to be a saint, that's what I'll believe. Meanwhile, I remain at liberty to observe that this Pope presided over a collapse of orthodoxy and orthopraxis without precendent; that his interreligious stunts (koran kissing, etc.)gave practical encouragement to the radical indifferentism that has become mainstream in the Church in the West; that he did everything in his power to encourage the "cult of the Holy Father" according to which the objective content of the Catholic faith has become identified in the minds of many good people with the ideas and attitudes of the reigning pontiff; that his practical refusal to govern the Church has contributed in large part to the hideous sexual scandals laying wast to the material and spiritual goods of the Church.
John Paul the Great? A great human being certainly, a great saint perhaps. A Pope of the calibre of Ss. Leo and Gregory? Let's wait a while, shall we?
When - if - the Church declares John Paul II to be a saint, that's what I'll believe. Meanwhile, I remain at liberty to observe that this Pope presided over a collapse of orthodoxy and orthopraxis without precendent; that his interreligious stunts (koran kissing, etc.)gave practical encouragement to the radical indifferentism that has become mainstream in the Church in the West; that he did everything in his power to encourage the "cult of the Holy Father" according to which the objective content of the Catholic faith has become identified in the minds of many good people with the ideas and attitudes of the reigning pontiff; that his practical refusal to govern the Church has contributed in large part to the hideous sexual scandals laying wast to the material and spiritual goods of the Church.
John Paul the Great? A great human being certainly, a great saint perhaps. A Pope of the calibre of Ss. Leo and Gregory? Let's wait a while, shall we?
He didn't deliberately or directly contribute to the way the sex scandal unfolded. But he did deliberately appoint very poor choices of bishops (weak and spineless). He did that, so that he thought, they would be 'obedient and subservient' to Rome. In fact, they followed Rome, but because they were weak and ineffectual (by his choice) they didn't have the characters required to be good bishops of their dioceses. It was a deliberate effort to weaken the role of local bishop and enhance the role of the papacy (and its monster curia), by appointing weak and ineffectual bishops that would look for direction from Rome at every turn. It back fired in the way they dealt with discipline and so indirectly he caused the sex scandal.
Kissing the Koran was a silly mistake, and he should have known better than that. Eastern Christians were (and are still) shocked by that.
Encouraging the cult of the papacy (ultramontanism) is a heresy, and will probably delay canonization. The present Pope (Benedict) seems to be drawing a more orthodox and careful line in that regard.
Personally, John Paul II was a good, holy and prayerful person. But the papacy, a universal pastorate as he wanted it to be, is probably not possible. We need to return to a more orthodox model of the papacy.
So how will he be canonized? As a person of personal holiness? ...two miracles will prove this.
As a confessor, theologian and teacher, worthy of the title "the great"? ....all his writings must be carefully scrutinized and reviewed, and that will take decades. He wrote too much, to make canonization on that ground possible. And there is the questions of ultramontanism, and humanism yet to be fully evaluated.
So, if they stick with 'personal sanctity' and leave aside the question of his orthodoxy, he may be on the faster road. But still, probably not as fast as some would like.
Nick
Re: John Paul the Great's Beatification site - 07/02/05 03:22 PM
Re: John Paul the Great's Beatification site - 07/02/05 03:34 PM
But for an orthodox Christian, how one can be both personally holy, and un-orthodox at the same time, is problematic.
Re: John Paul the Great's Beatification site - 07/02/05 04:41 PM
From these posts, I find it hard to believe that we are observing the same Church, or knew the same pope!
It amuses me that everyone wants the Pope to respect local hierarchies until there is a big unresolved problem, then they criticize him.
The late Pope had nothing to do with the sex scandals; that was the local ordinaries' responsibility.
And Alex- if they canonize me then we will know they have gone too far!
Local veneration of saints is all well and good, but historically this led to abuses: politically minded bishops would "canonize" unworthy rulers for thier own ends, and locals sometimes "canonized" local false mystics [remember that there is a small movement today in Russia to canonize Rasputin!]
The reform of the process was necessary, but it resulted in a disproportionate number of religious order members and royalty [for years practically the only laity] getting canonized. This led to the idea among the faithful that real holiness was rare, and only for the religiously consecrated. John Paul broke the stranglehold of the religious orders and made it evident that holiness was not such a rarity. Indeed in my own life I have crossed paths with numerous people that may well be canonized someday, from the obvious [Blessed Mother Teresa, John Paul, Fr Benedict Groeschel, Fr John Hardon] to the obscure [a nun in the South Bronx who started a home for unwed mothers, friends who demonstrate heroic generosity, etc] John Paul's canonization of a record number of saints is for me a sign of his wisdom, not an impediment.
-Daniel
It amuses me that everyone wants the Pope to respect local hierarchies until there is a big unresolved problem, then they criticize him.
The late Pope had nothing to do with the sex scandals; that was the local ordinaries' responsibility.
And Alex- if they canonize me then we will know they have gone too far!
Local veneration of saints is all well and good, but historically this led to abuses: politically minded bishops would "canonize" unworthy rulers for thier own ends, and locals sometimes "canonized" local false mystics [remember that there is a small movement today in Russia to canonize Rasputin!]
The reform of the process was necessary, but it resulted in a disproportionate number of religious order members and royalty [for years practically the only laity] getting canonized. This led to the idea among the faithful that real holiness was rare, and only for the religiously consecrated. John Paul broke the stranglehold of the religious orders and made it evident that holiness was not such a rarity. Indeed in my own life I have crossed paths with numerous people that may well be canonized someday, from the obvious [Blessed Mother Teresa, John Paul, Fr Benedict Groeschel, Fr John Hardon] to the obscure [a nun in the South Bronx who started a home for unwed mothers, friends who demonstrate heroic generosity, etc] John Paul's canonization of a record number of saints is for me a sign of his wisdom, not an impediment.
-Daniel
Re: John Paul the Great's Beatification site - 07/02/05 07:54 PM
The observations made are interesting indeed, iconophile.
People see a remarkably holy man, and also see that in a number of ways his actions were not what they would have done. Such dissonance can be great food for thought. Unfortunately it too often leads not to introspection - a questioning of one's own actions and attitudes - but instead criticism and devaluation of the other. Lord, it's hard to be humble...
btw, congratulations on your family on it's latest addition.
People see a remarkably holy man, and also see that in a number of ways his actions were not what they would have done. Such dissonance can be great food for thought. Unfortunately it too often leads not to introspection - a questioning of one's own actions and attitudes - but instead criticism and devaluation of the other. Lord, it's hard to be humble...
btw, congratulations on your family on it's latest addition.
Re: John Paul the Great's Beatification site - 07/06/05 08:26 PM
Dear Ray and Charles,
Your comments about calling Pope John Paul a "saint" before his canonization are well taken.
However, this has gone on in Local Churches, West and East, for centuries.
In actual fact, the Church takes into consideration long-standing cults of veneration of persons (without ANY church pronouncement of canonization) over long periods of time as an indication that such are truly saints of God.
This happened with the many Martyrs of England and Wales whose pictures were painted on the walls of the English College at Rome.
The fact that people prayed before them for years helped in their eventual Beatification!
People have called local worthies "Saint" and "Blessed" and the Church of Rome has, from time to time, decided to make the titles formal and placed them into its calendar of saints.
Jerome Savonarola has been called "Blessed" for years by the Dominican Order and by Florentines.
There is Blessed Alan de la Roche, venerated by St Louis de Montfort and others, when, in fact, the title "Blessed" is an honorific and he was never beatified by anyone, not even by a local bishop.
Il Beato Fra Angelico was always called that, even though he was only recently formally Beatified as was Blessed John Duns Scotus Eriugena.
I've seen lists and lists of these local saints who are so ONLY because of local devotion - these include some Popes who are venerated by locales in Italy but were never beatified.
Pope Liberius is a full Saint in the East - but, at Rome, he was the first Pope not to have been given the honours of the altar.
Charlemagne was canonized by an anti-pope and later his cult was demoted to one of local status and he is called "Blessed Charlemagne" to this day, celebrated on January 28th at Aachen, Germany.
Then there is the famous "Saint Lucifer" of Cagliari in Italy.
He opposed St Hilary in the reception back into the Church of those who gave in to human weakness during persecutions and apostatized.
He was "incapable of tact" as was written of him and he was excommunicated by the Pope of his day.
But when he died, the cult of "St Lucifer" ("San Luciperro" sounds a bit less alarming) saw shrines and churches built in his honour on Sardinia. Rome decreed that his cult was not to go beyond that island.
So titles can be used by people in private prayer and elsewhere all they like. It is part of the Vox Populi which, in the Eastern Churches especially, still figures prominently in any canonization process.
St John Paul the Great, pray unto God for us!
Alex
Your comments about calling Pope John Paul a "saint" before his canonization are well taken.
However, this has gone on in Local Churches, West and East, for centuries.
In actual fact, the Church takes into consideration long-standing cults of veneration of persons (without ANY church pronouncement of canonization) over long periods of time as an indication that such are truly saints of God.
This happened with the many Martyrs of England and Wales whose pictures were painted on the walls of the English College at Rome.
The fact that people prayed before them for years helped in their eventual Beatification!
People have called local worthies "Saint" and "Blessed" and the Church of Rome has, from time to time, decided to make the titles formal and placed them into its calendar of saints.
Jerome Savonarola has been called "Blessed" for years by the Dominican Order and by Florentines.
There is Blessed Alan de la Roche, venerated by St Louis de Montfort and others, when, in fact, the title "Blessed" is an honorific and he was never beatified by anyone, not even by a local bishop.
Il Beato Fra Angelico was always called that, even though he was only recently formally Beatified as was Blessed John Duns Scotus Eriugena.
I've seen lists and lists of these local saints who are so ONLY because of local devotion - these include some Popes who are venerated by locales in Italy but were never beatified.
Pope Liberius is a full Saint in the East - but, at Rome, he was the first Pope not to have been given the honours of the altar.
Charlemagne was canonized by an anti-pope and later his cult was demoted to one of local status and he is called "Blessed Charlemagne" to this day, celebrated on January 28th at Aachen, Germany.
Then there is the famous "Saint Lucifer" of Cagliari in Italy.
He opposed St Hilary in the reception back into the Church of those who gave in to human weakness during persecutions and apostatized.
He was "incapable of tact" as was written of him and he was excommunicated by the Pope of his day.
But when he died, the cult of "St Lucifer" ("San Luciperro" sounds a bit less alarming) saw shrines and churches built in his honour on Sardinia. Rome decreed that his cult was not to go beyond that island.
So titles can be used by people in private prayer and elsewhere all they like. It is part of the Vox Populi which, in the Eastern Churches especially, still figures prominently in any canonization process.
St John Paul the Great, pray unto God for us!
Alex
Re: John Paul the Great's Beatification site - 07/06/05 08:51 PM
It is my understanding that acutally that is how saints come to be so - technically. Because the common, everyday people begin seeking their intercession. The people are the ones who begin the process, normally it is not the clergy. After the ground swell of the people it is a pretty sure thing that the holiness of the person is authentic.
Also, isn't that true of some of the dogma's from the East and West. They began with the common folk, praying and gathering because of happenings or beliefs. The Holy Spirit leads us into all truths, he works through the Body of Christ, not just the heiarchy. Of course, nothing can go against Scripture or the teaching magestarium of the Church.
Pani Rose
Also, isn't that true of some of the dogma's from the East and West. They began with the common folk, praying and gathering because of happenings or beliefs. The Holy Spirit leads us into all truths, he works through the Body of Christ, not just the heiarchy. Of course, nothing can go against Scripture or the teaching magestarium of the Church.
Pani Rose
Re: John Paul the Great's Beatification site - 07/06/05 11:10 PM
We can privately seek the intercession of anyone, be it a deceased pope, or blessed Clyde of Pittsburgh. I am simply stating I believe much of what I am hearing for the canonization of JPII is hysterical, overwrought, and sentimental. Not exactly the climate for a rational evaluation of the man's sanctity and lifetime of work.
I am simply stating I believe much of what I am hearing for the canonization of JPII is hysterical, overwrought, and sentimental. Not exactly the climate for a rational evaluation of the man's sanctity and lifetime of work.
Re: John Paul the Great's Beatification site - 07/06/05 11:44 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Pani Rose:
It is my understanding that acutally that is how saints come to be so - technically. Because the common, everyday people begin seeking their intercession. The people are the ones who begin the process, normally it is not the clergy. After the ground swell of the people it is a pretty sure thing that the holiness of the person is authentic.
Pani Rose
It is my understanding that acutally that is how saints come to be so - technically. Because the common, everyday people begin seeking their intercession. The people are the ones who begin the process, normally it is not the clergy. After the ground swell of the people it is a pretty sure thing that the holiness of the person is authentic.
Pani Rose
In Christ,
Porter.
Re: John Paul the Great's Beatification site - 07/07/05 12:05 AM
Dear Byztn you said:
Could anyone have effectively evangelized and managed the Church at the same time? I don't know. That would be almost an impossible task for any individual to pull off.
I say:
Pope John Paul II's concern was for humanity, and that's where it should have been. The Church has been managed many times without a Pope.
You said:
As for being a Doctor of the Church, sometimes he taught clearly and lucidly, but sometimes he rambled and lacked a clear focus in some of his writings.
I say: His ramblings came from a higher state of Grace and not easily comprehended by us lesser mortals.
You said:
At times he reached out to others almost to the point of syncretism and one could almost call him a universalist. On the other hand, sometimes he was clearly consistent with traditional Catholic teaching.
I say: To be called 'The Great', one has to have turned history. John Paul II did.
In Christ,
Zenovia
Could anyone have effectively evangelized and managed the Church at the same time? I don't know. That would be almost an impossible task for any individual to pull off.
I say:
Pope John Paul II's concern was for humanity, and that's where it should have been. The Church has been managed many times without a Pope.
You said:
As for being a Doctor of the Church, sometimes he taught clearly and lucidly, but sometimes he rambled and lacked a clear focus in some of his writings.
I say: His ramblings came from a higher state of Grace and not easily comprehended by us lesser mortals.
You said:
At times he reached out to others almost to the point of syncretism and one could almost call him a universalist. On the other hand, sometimes he was clearly consistent with traditional Catholic teaching.
I say: To be called 'The Great', one has to have turned history. John Paul II did.
In Christ,
Zenovia
Re: John Paul the Great's Beatification site - 07/07/05 12:10 AM
Zenovia, I will wait for the Church - the only competent authority - to decide if he is a saint, and for history to decide if he was "the Great."
Re: John Paul the Great's Beatification site - 07/07/05 02:07 PM
Dear Charles,
I too will wait for the Church to decide these things.
It looks like we won't have too, too long to wait . . .
And the Church is not only the Hierarchy - it is the Laity as well.
Fr. Hardon SJ, in his Catechism, mentioned the case of an Italian Archbishop in northern Italy who banned the devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus.
When he did that, the laity in the region all rose up and ousted him!
Rome reviewed the situation quickly and then came to the conclusion . . . that the laity were right.
Thank you for the opportunity to relate that story!
Alex
I too will wait for the Church to decide these things.
It looks like we won't have too, too long to wait . . .
And the Church is not only the Hierarchy - it is the Laity as well.
Fr. Hardon SJ, in his Catechism, mentioned the case of an Italian Archbishop in northern Italy who banned the devotion to the Sacred Heart of Jesus.
When he did that, the laity in the region all rose up and ousted him!
Rome reviewed the situation quickly and then came to the conclusion . . . that the laity were right.
Thank you for the opportunity to relate that story!
Alex
Re: John Paul the Great's Beatification site - 07/07/05 03:10 PM
A nice story, but we live in a different world. That's not the way things work today. As I understand church regulations, anyone is free to venerate whomever they please. That's private devotion. But today, it takes an official act of the competent church authorities to canonize.