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UAOC accuses UOC KP of dirty media war

Posted By: Tomassus

UAOC accuses UOC KP of dirty media war - 08/04/15 09:58 AM

UAOC accuses UOC KP of dirty media war

4 August 2015
http://risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/confessional/orthodox_relations/60719/

The comment of the UAOC press service regarding the decision of the Holy Synod of UOC-KP was made public by the official website of the UAOC Diocese of Lviv.

"The dirty media war and thirst of precedence of the UOC-KP, which now overflow the information space of Ukraine, only confirms the distortion of historical facts and rewriting of history to please some individuals," goes the UAOC statement.

UAOC makes excursion into the history and emphasizes that “overall, the so-called Ukrainian Council signed no single document in 1992, when there was a raider seizure of the UAOC purely as a religious organization, with all its property through illegal amendments to the UAOC Statute, against which Patriarch Mstislav (Skrypnyck) spoke out.”

The UAOC called "blasphemous» the claim that the UOC-KP "is the only real historical and legal successor of both Churches” (UOC and UAOC).

"Such actions of Patriarch Filaret not only put an end to the “dialogue on unification with the UAOC ,” but pushes both parties to this process of longed-for unification of the Orthodox Church in Ukraine back into the maelstrom of mutual grievances, total distrust and duplicity that is unworthy of either religious persons, or Christians in general,” goes the UAOC statement.
Posted By: DMD

Re: UAOC accuses UOC KP of dirty media war - 08/05/15 08:13 AM

Next headline: "Ukrainian Baptists celebrate over Orthodox infighting." Somehow I suspect at the day of final judgment we will account for how faithful to the gospel we were as Christians, not how loyal we were to a culture or nationality or a myth of cultural hegemony. (There, I think I covered all bases with that....)
Posted By: Peter J

Re: UAOC accuses UOC KP of dirty media war - 08/05/15 11:02 AM

Originally Posted by DMD
Next headline: "Ukrainian Baptists celebrate over Orthodox infighting."

They should read 1 Corinthians 13:6, "Love does not rejoice in evil."
Posted By: Utroque

Re: UAOC accuses UOC KP of dirty media war - 08/05/15 12:57 PM

There is no cure for this kind of stuff but an acknowledgment of Primacy: the first Primacy is that of Love, and the second is that of Peter. Enough said.
Posted By: Nelson Chase

Re: UAOC accuses UOC KP of dirty media war - 08/05/15 02:52 PM

Quote
There is no cure for this kind of stuff but an acknowledgment of Primacy: the first Primacy is that of Love, and the second is that of Peter. Enough said.


I couldn't agree more. It is for this reason that I became Catholic and have remained Catholic.
Posted By: SwanOfEndlessTales

Re: UAOC accuses UOC KP of dirty media war - 08/05/15 03:25 PM

Originally Posted by Utroque
There is no cure for this kind of stuff but an acknowledgment of Primacy: the first Primacy is that of Love, and the second is that of Peter. Enough said.


I am at pains to descry how this follows. The Papal primacy has obviously not saved the Catholic Church from infighting and schism.
Posted By: Peter J

Re: UAOC accuses UOC KP of dirty media war - 08/05/15 07:32 PM

Originally Posted by SwanOfEndlessTales
Originally Posted by Utroque
There is no cure for this kind of stuff but an acknowledgment of Primacy: the first Primacy is that of Love, and the second is that of Peter. Enough said.


I am at pains to descry how this follows. The Papal primacy has obviously not saved the Catholic Church from infighting and schism.

I myself recently praised Catholics (not that I'm biased or anything :halo:) vis a vis the fact that there is already one Ukrainian Catholic Church, whereas one Ukrainian Orthodox Church is just an idea under consideration. But I completely sympathize with you: Catholic triumphalism is not the answer to Orthodox problems.
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic

Re: UAOC accuses UOC KP of dirty media war - 08/05/15 10:36 PM

Actually, infighting is something very human and happens everywhere.

The Papacy, one may legitimately argue, needs this or that reform and certainly the popes of today are not the popes of the 16th-19th centuries.

But the Petrine Primacy is something of a unifying factor of a nature that I, personally, don't see in world Orthodoxy.

The Petrine Primacy of Elder Rome was normative for the once united Church of East and West and the East, if we read the Sixth Ecumenical Council's proceedings as one example, was actually very enthusiastic about defending and proclaiming Rome's primacy.

The issues of how much power the pope has/ought to have etc. are ones that can be ironed out in future.

The fact remains that the Roman Primacy is ultimately God's Will for his Orthodox Catholic Church.

Alex
Posted By: bergschlawiner

Re: UAOC accuses UOC KP of dirty media war - 08/05/15 11:40 PM

Does this meanthat the sins of the Borgia pope and some other winners in the 16-17th centuries is somehow forgotten!
Posted By: DMD

Re: UAOC accuses UOC KP of dirty media war - 08/06/15 09:22 AM

What the nature of the primacy has been and will be in the future, remains the primary issue of our earthly division. And unless and until Rome figures out a way in which to escape the trap it set for itself - over the fierce objections of the Melkite Patriarch and a large segment of the Roman Church, in Vatican One - unity shall remain elusive. The Orthodox can never accept a we will figure it out along the way approach. Been there, done that..at least for many of us from a historical if not personal perspective.

But I agree the fear within Orthodoxy of any sort of real way to deal with the chronic infighting is a problem.

Personally, I think that each of us has to reconcile these issues as best they can locally as little trust in the ability of huge institutions to change is well advised - be it in the world of business, politics, governments or religion. Lord, have mercy on us all.
Posted By: Nelson Chase

Re: UAOC accuses UOC KP of dirty media war - 08/06/15 12:05 PM

Quote
But I completely sympathize with you: Catholic triumphalism is not the answer to Orthodox problems.


I was not trying come off as triumphalist in my post, but the unity provided for by the Petrine Primacy is important and could solve many of the jurisdictional problems facing the Orthodox Church.

Quote
The Papal primacy has obviously not saved the Catholic Church from infighting and schism.


Quote
Actually, infighting is something very human and happens everywhere.


Exactly, just because there still has been splits within Catholicism, even with the Petrine Primacy, doesn't mean that doctrine on the primacy is somehow defective. In fact, many people dissent because they disagree with the Churches teaching. That is a free choice by the individual or group of people but that does not effect the legitimate teachings of the Church on a particular issue.


Quote
But the Petrine Primacy is something of a unifying factor of a nature that I, personally, don't see in world Orthodoxy.


St. John Paul says in Ut Unum Sint that the Bishop of Rome is "the first servant of unity." He also says in the same letter:

Quote
With the power and the authority without which such an office would be illusory, the Bishop of Rome must ensure the communion of all the Churches.


Within Orthodoxy there is no power or authority that can ensure the communion of all the Orthodox Churches. Sadly, one only has to look at the recent breach between Antioch and Jerusalem and the attempts by the Ecumenical Patriarch to exercise primacy, to see this.

Quote
The issues of how much power the pope has/ought to have etc. are ones that can be ironed out in future.

The fact remains that the Roman Primacy is ultimately God's Will for his Orthodox Catholic Church.


Amen.
Posted By: SwanOfEndlessTales

Re: UAOC accuses UOC KP of dirty media war - 08/06/15 01:02 PM

Originally Posted by Nelson Chase

Exactly, just because there still has been splits within Catholicism, even with the Petrine Primacy, doesn't mean that doctrine on the primacy is somehow defective. In fact, many people dissent because they disagree with the Churches teaching. That is a free choice by the individual or group of people but that does not effect the legitimate teachings of the Church on a particular issue.



You state that the Petrine primacy is some bulwark against schism (specifically, you said "cure"), and then admit that the Catholic church continues to experience schism. So much for that...

Quote
With the power and the authority without which such an office would be illusory, the Bishop of Rome must ensure the communion of all the Churches.


Since the Orthodox Churches are considered "true particular churches" and Rome is not communion with them, clearly the Papal supremacy does nothing more to guarantee unity than any other church polity.

Quote
Within Orthodoxy there is no power or authority that can ensure the communion of all the Orthodox Churches.


Apart from Christ himself, no such power can be found anywhere, including in the Catholic church.

Quote
Sadly, one only has to look at the recent breach between Antioch and Jerusalem and the attempts by the Ecumenical Patriarch to exercise primacy, to see this.


And one can look back to the Meletian schism to see that similar issues were not avoided when East and West were still united.
Posted By: DMD

Re: UAOC accuses UOC KP of dirty media war - 08/06/15 02:33 PM

The devil is in the details. The 'Petrine primacy' is viewed by the Orthodox Church as a code term for the modern institutional Papacy with its eccesiology of universal particular jurisdiction and supremacy - not the eccesiology which existed through the era of the seven ecumenical councils.

Sorry, but we Orthodox are not buying that and I suspect many Eastern Catholics don't really buy it either.
Posted By: Lester S

Re: UAOC accuses UOC KP of dirty media war - 08/07/15 07:46 PM

Originally Posted by DMD
The devil is in the details. The 'Petrine primacy' is viewed by the Orthodox Church as a code term for the modern institutional Papacy with its eccesiology of universal particular jurisdiction and supremacy - not the eccesiology which existed through the era of the seven ecumenical councils.

Sorry, but we Orthodox are not buying that and I suspect many Eastern Catholics don't really buy it either.


Rome needs to clearly state what hat it's wearing, when it comes to making claims of this, or that. It clearly wears more than one hat; and that's what can drive confusion.

Orthodoxy had the opportunity to break out of its self-preservation shell; and start investigating the relevancy of certain canons, with respect to the time(s) they've found themselves in. Granted, such a process may take longer than many want. We'll hope and see what the Council of 2016 will bring, God willing. But there could have been a careful working out of primacy, given new patriarchates have been erected since the initial pecking orders were established.
Posted By: orthodoxsinner2

Re: UAOC accuses UOC KP of dirty media war - 08/14/15 01:59 AM

I am at pains to descry how this follows. The Papal primacy has obviously not saved the Catholic Church from infighting and schism. [/quote]
I myself recently praised Catholics (not that I'm biased or anything :halo:) vis a vis the fact that there is already one Ukrainian Catholic Church, whereas one Ukrainian Orthodox Church is just an idea under consideration. But I completely sympathize with you: Catholic triumphalism is not the answer to Orthodox problems.[/quote]
Is there 1 Ukrainian Catholic Church? Is there not the RC, UGCC, and the Ruthenians?
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic

Re: UAOC accuses UOC KP of dirty media war - 08/14/15 08:18 AM

Dear Bergschlawiner,

Not forgotten at all! And what about the sins of the Patriarchs of Moscow under the USSR? I guess we can't forget them since no one seems to want to remember them in the first place.

Alex
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic

Re: UAOC accuses UOC KP of dirty media war - 08/14/15 08:26 AM

Dear Orthodoxsinner,

There really is ONE Ukrainian Catholic Church! The RC Church is not the UGCC and the Ruthenians, God help them, are not part of our jurisdiction either.

They all are in full communion with one another though.

What I don't get from Orthodox Christians with whom I've had the privilege of discussing this matter in the past (and this probably has more to do with converts than with cradles) is that when it comes to the papacy, all sorts of issues, wrongs and evils are brought up by them - usually against a perceived "attack" on Orthodoxy which appears to have never done any wrong, historically or in contemporary times.

Are we not then dealing with two triumphalisms here? The other being a kind of "Orthodox triumphalism?"

Alex
Posted By: orthodoxsinner2

Re: UAOC accuses UOC KP of dirty media war - 08/14/15 09:47 PM

Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Dear Orthodoxsinner,

There really is ONE Ukrainian Catholic Church! The RC Church is not the UGCC and the Ruthenians, God help them, are not part of our jurisdiction either.

They all are in full communion with one another though.

What I don't get from Orthodox Christians with whom I've had the privilege of discussing this matter in the past (and this probably has more to do with converts than with cradles) is that when it comes to the papacy, all sorts of issues, wrongs and evils are brought up by them - usually against a perceived "attack" on Orthodoxy which appears to have never done any wrong, historically or in contemporary times.

Are we not then dealing with two triumphalisms here? The other being a kind of "Orthodox triumphalism?"

Alex


Sorry you have lost me. How do you define Ukrainian? Catholic? Church?

For there to be 1 Ukrainian Catholic Church it would need to be the sole catholic church on the territory of Ukraine.

Currently you have Ukrainians as members of the RCC, UGCC, and the Ruthenian Church. That is 3 Catholic Churches in Ukraine.

Canonically speaking the Orthodox situation is far better since there is only one Canonical Church which is the UOC-MP. Pastorally speaking it is a difficult situation and hopefully there is some resolution soon but that requires dialogue between the break away groups and Metropolitan of Kiev and the MP.The EP will not get involved.

I agree that it is unfortunate that the Orthodox do not have an agreed upon method to qualify and recognize autocephaly.

Personally I think it should follow political boundaries. I know some will say that is ethnophyletism but in my mind it is the only criteria that works.

Posted By: Orthodox Catholic

Re: UAOC accuses UOC KP of dirty media war - 08/14/15 10:22 PM

OK, now you've lost me . . .

I define "Ukrainian Catholic" as a member of the Particular Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church. Traditionally, that is what we call ourselves.

But when the Russian Orthodox Church participated in the destruction of the UGCC in 1946, there were many members of the UGCC who found themselves without a Church. They were unwilling to commit the sin of schism, from their POV, and become members of the ROC. At the same time, they didn't want to join the now underground UGCC (of which my great-uncle was its Primate beginning in the early 1960's).

So they joined the RC Church which, until then, was composed largely of non-Ukainians. Today, there is a Ukrainian Latin Rite Catholic Church (who even have chaplains working in the Ukrainian armed forces fighting in the current conflict there).

There is also an Armenian Catholic Church in Ukraine. More than one Particular Church can and does exist within the same political boundaries of a single nation - they share the same faith etc. There are also Orthodox churches of different jurisdictions in other countries, as you know.

I can't see how anyone can possibility see the current "Orthodox mess" in Ukraine as a positive feature at all.

The canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Church is under Moscow and its Metropolitan is (unlike the previous Primate, His Beatitude Volodymyr +memory eternal!) quite the Russophile, giving offense even to members of his own Church by his ill-advised and very pro-Russian comments and actions.

The as yet uncanonical Kyivan Patriarchate is quite large now, including the more than 1,000 parishes of the UAOC.

If the "canonical" resolution to these problems is, as the UOC-MP Metropolitan has reiterated time and again, that the non-canonical Orthodox "return" to Moscow - that is just not going to work in the long run for very many Ukrainian Orthodox who are increasingly feeling quite alienated from the Moscow patriarchate and its involvement in Ukrainian church and even political affairs.

The Ukrainian Orthodox were in communion with the Ecumenical Patriarchate for about 700 years since the time of the Baptism of Kyivan-Rus' by St Volodymyr. No one, not even Ukrainian Greek-Catholics, feel any antagonism toward Constantinople at all. It is the Mother Church of the Church of Kyiv - just as the Church of Kyiv is the Mother Church of Moscow.

If you think the EP won't get involved with the Orthodox situation in Ukraine - it already has by blessing two of her Bishops in North America to attend, as observers, meeting with the "uncanonical" Ukrainian Orthodox.

If you check the latest comments of the UOC-MP Synod, you will see that His Beatitude, Metropolitan Onuphrios is quite perturbed by all this and has formally issued a demand to the EP for an explanation for its current involvement.

The UOC-MP itself is divided along Ukrainian-Russian lines in a way like never before. And its leadership isn't making things any easier for themselves either by, in a word, stupid comments that only increase popular anger against it.

Even an eparchy of the UAOC in eastern Ukraine is now in talks with the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church to go ahead with achieving full communion with it.

That is an indication of the extent of the grave problems from Orthodoxy in Ukraine.

So, yes, the situation with the Eastern Catholic Church there is much, much better.

If you still seek a definition of what the UGCC is, it has a website.

Alex
Posted By: orthodoxsinner2

Re: UAOC accuses UOC KP of dirty media war - 08/14/15 11:10 PM

Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
OK, now you've lost me . . .

I define "Ukrainian Catholic" as a member of the Particular Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church. Traditionally, that is what we call ourselves.

But when the Russian Orthodox Church participated in the destruction of the UGCC in 1946, there were many members of the UGCC who found themselves without a Church. They were unwilling to commit the sin of schism, from their POV, and become members of the ROC. At the same time, they didn't want to join the now underground UGCC (of which my great-uncle was its Primate beginning in the early 1960's).

So they joined the RC Church which, until then, was composed largely of non-Ukainians. Today, there is a Ukrainian Latin Rite Catholic Church (who even have chaplains working in the Ukrainian armed forces fighting in the current conflict there).

There is also an Armenian Catholic Church in Ukraine. More than one Particular Church can and does exist within the same political boundaries of a single nation - they share the same faith etc. There are also Orthodox churches of different jurisdictions in other countries, as you know.

I can't see how anyone can possibility see the current "Orthodox mess" in Ukraine as a positive feature at all.

The canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Church is under Moscow and its Metropolitan is (unlike the previous Primate, His Beatitude Volodymyr +memory eternal!) quite the Russophile, giving offense even to members of his own Church by his ill-advised and very pro-Russian comments and actions.

The as yet uncanonical Kyivan Patriarchate is quite large now, including the more than 1,000 parishes of the UAOC.

If the "canonical" resolution to these problems is, as the UOC-MP Metropolitan has reiterated time and again, that the non-canonical Orthodox "return" to Moscow - that is just not going to work in the long run for very many Ukrainian Orthodox who are increasingly feeling quite alienated from the Moscow patriarchate and its involvement in Ukrainian church and even political affairs.

The Ukrainian Orthodox were in communion with the Ecumenical Patriarchate for about 700 years since the time of the Baptism of Kyivan-Rus' by St Volodymyr. No one, not even Ukrainian Greek-Catholics, feel any antagonism toward Constantinople at all. It is the Mother Church of the Church of Kyiv - just as the Church of Kyiv is the Mother Church of Moscow.

If you think the EP won't get involved with the Orthodox situation in Ukraine - it already has by blessing two of her Bishops in North America to attend, as observers, meeting with the "uncanonical" Ukrainian Orthodox.

If you check the latest comments of the UOC-MP Synod, you will see that His Beatitude, Metropolitan Onuphrios is quite perturbed by all this and has formally issued a demand to the EP for an explanation for its current involvement.

The UOC-MP itself is divided along Ukrainian-Russian lines in a way like never before. And its leadership isn't making things any easier for themselves either by, in a word, stupid comments that only increase popular anger against it.

Even an eparchy of the UAOC in eastern Ukraine is now in talks with the Ukrainian Greek-Catholic Church to go ahead with achieving full communion with it.

That is an indication of the extent of the grave problems from Orthodoxy in Ukraine.

So, yes, the situation with the Eastern Catholic Church there is much, much better.

If you still seek a definition of what the UGCC is, it has a website.

Alex


Hi Alex,

I think I see why we are losing one another at least in part. That is why it is beneficial to define terms. I define Ukrainian Catholic as any Ukrainian who attends any Particular Church. So the Ukrainian Catholic can be a member of the Latin Rite, Ruthenian Eparchy, or the UGCC.

I have been seeing articles for years that the EP was going to get involved and nothing ever happens. The EP is in a precarious situation within Orthodoxy they cannot afford an open war with Moscow especially since they have lost their bread basket of Greece due to the unfortunate economic situation there. Currently the EP needs the MP more than the MP needs them especially since relations between Antioch and the EP are currently strained. Also, the MP loses nothing by boycotting the Pan Orthodox Synod that is slated for 2016 but the EP will lose face and credibility if it can't pull it off.

If the KP and the UAOC wanted normalization outside of dealing with the UOC-MP they would be better served by turning to their Slavic neighbors: The Polish Orthodox Church and or the Church of the Czech and Slovak Lands. Both of which have good relations with Moscow, relationships that Moscow does not want to sour. They could make strong appeals on their behalf and provide temporary normalization of their status.

Posted By: Peter J

Re: UAOC accuses UOC KP of dirty media war - 08/15/15 10:11 AM

Originally Posted by orthodoxsinner2
Is there 1 Ukrainian Catholic Church? Is there not the RC, UGCC, and the Ruthenians?

No question, those are three distinct Churches. (I could argue about calling them all "Ukrainian" ... 99.9% of the Latin Church isn't in Ukraine or Ukrainian in any sense.) But the important thing is that those three Churches are all in full communion with each other, and mutually recognize each other as canonical.
Posted By: Peter J

Re: UAOC accuses UOC KP of dirty media war - 08/15/15 10:20 AM

I just saw this, and your other posts from yesterday, a short while ago ...
Originally Posted by orthodoxsinner2
Canonically speaking the Orthodox situation is far better since there is only one Canonical Church which is the UOC-MP.

That's better? Well, I'm sure you're entitled to your opinion. I won't try to change your mind since your opinion doesn't carry weight with me.

But I would like to ask: do you have any evidence of significant geographical overlap between the UGCC and the Ruthenian Catholic Church? That seems to be very important to you, but everything I've seen points to exactly the opposite.
Posted By: orthodoxsinner2

Re: UAOC accuses UOC KP of dirty media war - 08/15/15 07:02 PM

Originally Posted by Peter J
I just saw this, and your other posts from yesterday, a short while ago ...
Originally Posted by orthodoxsinner2
Canonically speaking the Orthodox situation is far better since there is only one Canonical Church which is the UOC-MP.

That's better? Well, I'm sure you're entitled to your opinion. I won't try to change your mind since your opinion doesn't carry weight with me.

But I would like to ask: do you have any evidence of significant geographical overlap between the UGCC and the Ruthenian Catholic Church? That seems to be very important to you, but everything I've seen points to exactly the opposite.


Well I am sorry if I struck a nerve. I was just trying to figure out what was meant by another poster. I never said there was significant overlap between the Ruthenian Eparchy of Mukachevo and the UGCC. What I am saying is that the eparchy of Mukachevo and its 400+ parishes are a Ukrainian Catholic Church in their own right. The people in the pews are Ukrainian Citizens. They live, work, vote and pay taxes in Ukraine and by everyone's acknowledgement they are members of the Catholic Communion of Churches.

And the same can be said of those dioceses of the latin rite made up by Ukrainian Citizens on the territory of Ukraine.

And I want to point that the points that I am making are based on my limited understanding and I do not claim to be an expert.
Posted By: DMD

Re: UAOC accuses UOC KP of dirty media war - 08/17/15 10:18 AM

Wading into the status of the Eparchy of Mucachevo and attempting to 'prove' that it is a 'Ukrainian' Greek Catholic Church opens up a whole can of worms which really is not germane to Peter's point. Since 1945 the territory of the Mucachevo Eparchy was ceded to the USSR, included in its geographical definition of "Ukraine" and remained in Ukraine after independence in 1992. However, while the citizenship of those native to Transcarpathia is no doubt Ukrainian, that doesn't make them all ethnically Ukrainian. It is more than a nuance that accounts for the separate existence of that Eparchy. There are plenty of ethnic Hungarians in Transcarpathia and ethnic Romanians there as well - they are admittedly Ukrainian citizens, but that legality does not make them ethnic Ukrainians either.
Posted By: Peter J

Re: UAOC accuses UOC KP of dirty media war - 08/17/15 01:28 PM

Originally Posted by orthodoxsinner2
Well I am sorry if I struck a nerve.

You didn't. No need to apologize. smile

Quote
I never said there was significant overlap between the Ruthenian Eparchy of Mukachevo and the UGCC.

True, you didn't. But then, why it is a problem that they are both in the same country?
Posted By: orthodoxsinner2

Re: UAOC accuses UOC KP of dirty media war - 08/17/15 10:19 PM

Originally Posted by DMD
Wading into the status of the Eparchy of Mucachevo and attempting to 'prove' that it is a 'Ukrainian' Greek Catholic Church opens up a whole can of worms which really is not germane to Peter's point. Since 1945 the territory of the Mucachevo Eparchy was ceded to the USSR, included in its geographical definition of "Ukraine" and remained in Ukraine after independence in 1992. However, while the citizenship of those native to Transcarpathia is no doubt Ukrainian, that doesn't make them all ethnically Ukrainian. It is more than a nuance that accounts for the separate existence of that Eparchy. There are plenty of ethnic Hungarians in Transcarpathia and ethnic Romanians there as well - they are admittedly Ukrainian citizens, but that legality does not make them ethnic Ukrainians either.


Thank you for your response. It is interesting and informative. If I am understanding you correctly when members of this thread refer to the UGCC as being the Ukrainian Church they are talking about ethnicity/culture and not geographical boundaries.

So when some in this thread are supporting an Autocephalous Ukrainian Orthodox Church are they speaking of a church for ethnic ukrainians that will exist at the same time and be in union with a separate Russian UOC-MP? Or are they envisioning an Authocephalous Ukrainian Orthdox Church that will be based on the geographical borders of the nation and will encompass all ethnicities?

Posted By: orthodoxsinner2

Re: UAOC accuses UOC KP of dirty media war - 08/17/15 10:28 PM

Originally Posted by Peter J
Originally Posted by orthodoxsinner2
Well I am sorry if I struck a nerve.

You didn't. No need to apologize. smile

Quote
I never said there was significant overlap between the Ruthenian Eparchy of Mukachevo and the UGCC.

True, you didn't. But then, why it is a problem that they are both in the same country?


Well I guess in my mind the ideal would be one country = one church. (Yes I know there are countries with 2 orthodox churches in them but I see that as an aberration and abuse) And I guess I didn't understand the nuances related to ethnicity.

If I could just ask 2 follow up questions.
1) are the members of the latin rite churches ethnic Ukrainians?
2) How do ECs view the Pan Orthodox Council that declared ethnophyletism a heresy?

Thank you all for your responses.
Posted By: Michael_Thoma

Re: UAOC accuses UOC KP of dirty media war - 08/17/15 10:54 PM

Mimicking the national borders does not make the charge of "ethnophyletism" any less an "abuse", since it is defined as "Phyletism or ethnophyletism (from Greek ἔθνος ethnos 'nation' and φυλετισμός phyletismos 'tribalism') is the principle of nationalities applied in the ecclesiastical domain: in other words, the conflation between Church and nation. The term ethnophyletismos designates the idea that a local autocephalous Church should be based not on a local [ecclesial] criterion, but on an ethnophyletist, national or linguistic one. It was used at the Holy and Great [Μείζων Meizon 'enlarged'] pan-Orthodox Synod in Constantinople on 10 September 1872 to qualify 'phyletist (religious) nationalism,' which was condemned as a modern ecclesial heresy: the Church should not be confused with the destiny of a single nation or a single race."

However, it should be noted that most, if not all of the EC Churches are supranational - in that because of being in the Catholic Communion, it's national identity is secondary to it's ecclesial; also, many of them (as well as Orthodox) have members that are not ethnically 'native' from clergy to bishops to laymen.

Also, if the idea of 'one country, one Church' were actually implemented, the first to object would be the largest ignorer of that principle - the ROC which claims jurisdiction over nations that don't exist, were forced into union, are now divided and even those that reject union.
Posted By: DMD

Re: UAOC accuses UOC KP of dirty media war - 08/17/15 11:22 PM

It also should be noted that 'ethnophyletism' is one of the most bounced around and misapplied terms in American Orthodoxy, especially among converts. The truth be told, it was condemned by the Constantinople dominated faction at said Synod as the Phanar's control over the Orthodox in lands formerly part of the Ottoman Empire was disintegrating as the empire was disintegrating. The counterargument is that the condemnation was more of a tacit endorsement of a number of claims which Constantinople continues to make into the 21st century regarding its claimed role/rule over the Orthodox in the so-called 'barbarian lands'
Posted By: orthodoxsinner2

Re: UAOC accuses UOC KP of dirty media war - 08/18/15 08:14 AM

Excellent points.
Posted By: Peter J

Re: UAOC accuses UOC KP of dirty media war - 08/18/15 03:02 PM

Originally Posted by orthodoxsinner2
Originally Posted by Peter J
Originally Posted by orthodoxsinner2
I never said there was significant overlap between the Ruthenian Eparchy of Mukachevo and the UGCC.

True, you didn't. But then, why it is a problem that they are both in the same country?
Well I guess in my mind the ideal would be one country = one church. (Yes I know there are countries with 2 orthodox churches in them but I see that as an aberration and abuse) And I guess I didn't understand the nuances related to ethnicity.

If I could just ask 2 follow up questions.
1) are the members of the latin rite churches ethnic Ukrainians?
2) How do ECs view the Pan Orthodox Council that declared ethnophyletism a heresy?

Thank you all for your responses.

The Orthodox were quite right to condemn ethnophyletism. As for (1), I don't think it's relevant (see previous sentence) ... hence why I've consistently avoided arguing with you about the ethnicity of the three Churches.
Posted By: Fr. Deacon Lance

Re: UAOC accuses UOC KP of dirty media war - 08/18/15 10:41 PM

Originally Posted by orthodoxsinner2

If I could just ask 2 follow up questions.
1) are the members of the latin rite churches ethnic Ukrainians?
2) How do ECs view the Pan Orthodox Council that declared ethnophyletism a heresy?

Thank you all for your responses.


No, they are primarily Poles.
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic

Re: UAOC accuses UOC KP of dirty media war - 08/20/15 10:21 PM

Well, this EC views the pan-Orthodox Council that condemned ethno-phyletism in terms of what it actually condemned, that is, the issue of the Bulgarian jurisdiction receiving only Bulgarians.

What does this point have to do with the Ukrainian situation is beyond me.

No Ukrainian Orthodox or EC jurisdiction forbids non-Ukrainians from being members. The UOC-KP, in fact, has, at last count, three Russian eparchies.

The Ukrainian Orthodox continues to glorify many non-Ukrainians as Saints of its Church (compare this to the historical Greek tradition in this regard).

In fact, the national Orthodox Churches in Europe and elsewhere have tended to focus on serving their own communities which are largely composed of citizens of the nations where they are located.

This issue comes up sporadically where Western converts are concerned who feel alienated in parishes which are linked to specific cultural identities connected to their homeland jurisdictions.

Again, no one in Ukraine (or elsewhere in recent memory) forbids people of other cultural backgrounds to join it.

The UGCC also had, at one point, a group of Old Rite Russian Orthodox in communion with it (and with Rome).

As DMD said, the term ethnophyletism gets bandied about a lot without fulling understanding what was specifically condemned by that Orthodox council in 1872 (I think it was that year).

Alex


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