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Ukrainian autocephaly

Posted By: theophan

Ukrainian autocephaly - 10/11/18 07:00 PM

I just read a report that His All-Holiness and the Synod of the Ecumenical Patriarchate has recognized the Ukrainian Orthodox Church's independence from the Moscow Patriarchate in the past few days. He has recognized the leader of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Kievan Patriarchate as the canonical Orthodox Church on the territory of Ukraine.

Has anyone else seen this?

Quote
The Ecumenical Patriarchate continues the procedure of granting autocephaly to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, as stated in the decision made at the meeting of the Synod of the Ecumenical Patriarchate, published on the Patriarchate's website. Following extensive deliberations, the Holy Synod decreed to "renew the decision already made that the Ecumenical Patriarchate proceed to the granting of Autocephaly to the Church of Ukraine," the decision says. The Synod has also decreed to "reestablish, at this moment, the Stavropegion of the Ecumenical Patriarch in Kyiv, one of its many Stavropegia in Ukraine that existed there always." It is decreed to "accept and review the petitions of appeal of Filaret Denisenko, Makariy Maletych and their followers, who found themselves in schism not for dogmatic reasons, in accordance with the canonical prerogatives of the Patriarch of Constantinople to receive such petitions by hierarchs and other clergy from all of the Autocephalous Churches. Thus, the above-mentioned have been canonically reinstated to their hierarchical or priestly rank, and their faithful have been restored to communion with the Church." ...To revoke the legal binding of the Synodal Letter of the year 1686, issued for the circumstances of that time, which granted the right through oikonomia to the Patriarch of Moscow to ordain the Metropolitan of Kyiv, elected by the Clergy-Laity Assembly of his eparchy, who would commemorate the Ecumenical Patriarch as the First hierarch at any celebration, proclaiming and affirming his canonical dependence to the Mother Church of Constantinople. The Holy Synod also appeals to all sides involved that they "avoid appropriation of Churches, Monasteries and other properties, as well as every other act of violence and retaliation, so that the peace and love of Christ may prevail." If you see a spelling error on our site, select it and press Ctrl+Enter

Read more on UNIAN: https://www.unian.info/society/1029...to-church-of-ukraine-synod-decision.html


There is also a mention that this action is on the website of the Ecumenical Patriarchate.

Bob
Posted By: Michael_Thoma

Re: Ukrainian autocephaly - 10/12/18 02:34 AM

Confirmed:

https://www.rferl.org/a/constantino...-ukrainian-orthodox-church/29538590.html


Ecumenical Patriarchate Agrees To Recognize Independence Of Ukrainian Church
Last Updated: October 11, 2018 20:27 GMT
Posted By: theophan

Re: Ukrainian autocephaly - 10/12/18 01:18 PM

Christ is in our midst!!

As I followed this news, it seems that the Ecumenical Patriarchate has recognized two groups: the former "Kiev Patriarchate" and the "Autocephalous" group. So two bodies that were not recognized prior to this date have both become canonical.

Does that mean that they will find their way together to form one?

Bob
Posted By: SwanOfEndlessTales

Re: Ukrainian autocephaly - 10/12/18 02:31 PM

According to Archbishop Daniel (one of the two EP exarchs) there is supposed to be a congress of the bishops of UAOC, KP, and any bishops of the UOC who want to be there. This body would formulate the structure of the new church and elect a primate, at which point the new church will receive the Tomos of autocephaly from the EP.

What does that make these bishops now? Is Makariy still metropolitan? Is Filaret still Patriarch? This is where it's rather murky and confusing.

I think both MP and EP have conducted themselves very poorly in this matter.
Posted By: theophan

Re: Ukrainian autocephaly - 10/21/18 06:53 PM

Christ is in our midst!!

This set of events pains me. To me, it is always cause for sorrow when brethren are at odds with each other.

Bob
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic

Re: Ukrainian autocephaly - 12/08/18 04:55 AM

Dear Bob,

How have you been sir? FYI, the special Church Council of the unification of the Ukrainian Orthodox into one autocephalous Church will take place on December 15 - next week. This Sobor will be participated in by the hierarchs of the Kyivan Patriarchate, the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church and ten hierarchs of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Moscow Patriarchate (who signed the original petition to the EP to ask for the grant of autocephaly - led by Metropolitan Aleksandr (Drabenko)). There could also be more hierarchs who would move away from the MP - we shall see.

This will be a joyous occasion for millions of Ukrainian Orthodox and that around the world as they will have a unified and canonical autocephalous Orthodox Church for the first time that will be free of the Moscow Patriarchate. The real brethren will no longer be at odds with each other and will embrace one another in love and respect. The Moscow Patriarchate is not a brother. Quite the opposite in fact.

Cheers, Alex
Posted By: Our Lady's slave

Re: Ukrainian autocephaly - 12/08/18 01:48 PM

Alex - how wonderful to see you post again smile
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic

Re: Ukrainian autocephaly - 12/10/18 05:56 PM

How have you been Anhelyna? Did you find the Lestovkas you mentioned way back when?

Alex
Posted By: Our Lady's slave

Re: Ukrainian autocephaly - 12/10/18 07:24 PM

Indeed and I did - and they are well used smile
Posted By: Michael_Thoma

Re: Ukrainian autocephaly - 12/15/18 10:44 PM

https://www.ukrinform.net/rubric-so...inian-autocephalous-orthodox-church.html

Metropolitan of Pereiaslav and Bila Tserkva Epifaniy (Serhiy Dumenko) has been elected primate of the local Ukrainian Orthodox Church.
Epifaniy was elected by secret ballot at the unification council of the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church held at Kyiv's St. Sophia Cathedral on Saturday, December 15, an Ukrinform correspondent reported.

He was nominated by the Bishops' Council of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of the Kyiv Patriarchate on Thursday.

"Today is December 15. This day will go down in history as a sacred day, a day of the creation of the Ukrainian Autocephalous Orthodox Church, a day of final independence from the Russian Federation," President of Ukraine Petro Poroshenko said. He together with Metropolitan Epifaniy addressed people at the square near St. Sophia Cathedral.

President Poroshenko stressed that ”the issue of autocephaly is an issue of our Ukrainian national security." "Finally, we gain spiritual independence, which can be compared with gaining political independence. We cut off the chains that bind us to the empire. We return to our God-determined path and go our own way,” the president noted.
Posted By: Michael_Thoma

Re: Ukrainian autocephaly - 12/15/18 10:48 PM

Much more here:

https://www.rferl.org/a/ukraine-orthodox-priests-to-hold-historic-meeting-in-kyiv/29657742.html
Posted By: theophan

Re: Ukrainian autocephaly - 12/17/18 06:42 PM

Christ is in our midst!!

What happens to the former heads of the two bodies that met to form this new autocephalous Church? (Patriarch Filaret and the Metropolitan of the Autocephalous Church) Do they retire?

Bob
Posted By: SwanOfEndlessTales

Re: Ukrainian autocephaly - 12/17/18 08:16 PM

I believe officially they will retire. However, since Metropolitan Epifaniy is Filaret's chosen protégé, Filaret may well continue running things behind the scenes. The independence of the new church is also rather dubious- the terms of the charter that were released indicate that it will be a dependency of Constantinople.
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic

Re: Ukrainian autocephaly - 12/19/18 06:26 PM

Well, better Constantinople than Moscow for the Ukrainian Church. Constantinople never tried to Hellenize the Kyivan Church or dominate it as did the Moscow Patriarchate in history. I would not be surprised if a significant portion of the Ukrainian Catholic faithful in Ukraine decided to "move over" to the autocephalous Ukrainian Orthodox Church in time. (I know there are Ukrainian Catholics and Ukrainian Orthodox who just don't see the difference between the Churches. For example, when Ukrainian Orthodox emigrate to Canada, they don't balk at attending a Ukrainian Catholic parish. I knew a number of "old guard" Ukrainian Orthodox, including one university professor, who attended St Nicholas parish here. St Nicholas was and is where the "intelligentsia" attend. When asked why he, as an Orthodox Christian, attended there, he would always respond "My family attends the "true Orthodox" church . . .go figure). According to surveys, fully 25% of Ukrainian Orthodox faithful never saw the distinction between parishes of the Kyivan Patriarchate or the Moscow Patriarchate. They only went wherever it said "Ukrainian Orthodox Church" and wouldnt think of attending the ROC. Once things become clear, the ROC in Ukraine will lose even more parishioners to the new Autocephalous Ukrainian Orthodox Church in communion with His All-Holiness the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople.

Let's remember that the MP did this to itself beginning with appointing Metropolitan Onuphrius following the death of Metropolitan Vladimir (Sabodan) Memory Eternal!. And it fired a number of Ukrainian Orthodox priests and bishops from administrative posts including seminary positions because of their pro-Ukrainian sympathies. Metropolitan Alexander (Drabenko) is a case in point. He was actually taken into custody by the pro-Russian authorities in Kyiv during the Maidan protests and suffered greatly due to his pro-Ukrainian sympathies. He had, after all, begun experimenting with Ukrainian-Language liturgies and began holding panakhydas for the reposed Hetman Ivan Mazepa who was excommunicated by the ROC when he turned against Peter I and became a symbol of Ukrainian independence of Russia. (Patriarch St Tikhon the Hieroconfessor was, as a number of stated, in favour of lifting that anathema and even said, at one point, that it was invalid as it was done for political reasons etc.). Ukrainian Catholics are familiar with panalkhydas for Hetman Mazepa as many Ukrainian Orthodox would approach our priests to serve them on September 21, the day he died, due to the fact that their own priests, under the ROC, were forbidden from doing so due to his excommunication. But I digress...

And what really pained many is how Metropolitan Onuphrius refused to stand in the Ukrainian parliament when military medals were awarded to soldiers. Ukrainian Muslims stood, but not the Primate of the UOC-MP (or the MP's satellite in Ukraine). When asked later by journalists why he wouldn't stand up to honour the nation's heroes, he simply said, among other things, "we don't honour killers." I wonder if His Beatitude would have had the intestinal fortitude to stand before Mr. Putin in Moscow and do and say something similar when Russian soldiers were being awarded medals . . .

His All-Holiness is now WILDLY popular in Ukraine and throughout the Ukrainian diaspora. He is, I dare say, MUCH more popular among many Ukrainian Catholics than any pope ever was. And this is something that we Ukrainian Catholics have also brought on ourselves with our patriarchal movement. It was grossly naive of us to think Rome would ever acknowledge a patriarchate for our Church, the largest EC Church and the Decree on the EC Churches notwithstanding. For too long, we have been a big bump in the ecumenical road travelled by Rome toward Moscow. We shall see how the new ecclesial realities in Ukraine will impact the UGCC - the descendant of the Unia which Rome constantly apologizes for to the Orthodox.

As for the former heads of the two bodies, they will continue as hierarchs, they are not retiring at all. That is what Metropolitan Evstathius affirmed in a number of Ukrainian language interviews on the subject. And His Beatitude Metropolitan Epifanij was the patriarchal locum tenens, I believe the term is in the KP. All the Hierarchs at the Sobor last Saturday voted and I was personally surprised that Patriarch Filaret was not chosen (as many said he would be). They couldn't have made a better choice than in the person of Metropolitan Epifanij who will eventually become the first canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Patriarch of Kyiv and all Ukraine.

My relatives in Ukraine, both Catholic and Orthodox, went out to dance in the streets on Saturday at the news of the decisions of the Sobor. Many hearts of the same in the Diaspora danced as well. I know mine did.

Alex
Posted By: The young fogey

Re: Ukrainian autocephaly - 12/20/18 08:33 AM

I go to the Ukrainian Catholic Church for Liturgy and Communion. I go to the Russian Orthodox Church, whose music I know, for Vigil as Communion prep. I see our lack of such services as an ecumenical opportunity: that the Byzantine Catholic churches are not perfect is a reminder that our work is far from done. (Part of that work is explaining the entire Catholic faith all in Orthodox terms.) And why duplicate services? Let's buddy up. Anyway, this whole row in the Ukraine is unseemly and makes our work, of bringing ALL the Orthodox into the church, so much harder. (And yes; it's THE Ukraine, for the same reason I don't say "Paree.") Not Uniatism: we're not trying to break them up. Metropolitan Sviatoslav is canonically in charge — for now. But of course most Ukrainian Christians aren't Catholic — yet. They seem about evenly divided between the original canonical Orthodox there, the Russian Orthodox Church, Metropolitan Onuphrey of Kiev, and what was ex-Metropolitan Filaret's Kyiv Patriarchate, now Constantinople's metropolia there possibly becoming autocephalous: Metropolitan Epifany. When you hitch the church to politics, pretty soon it's about the politics, not Christ. Ukrainianness (and Russianness for that matter) is well and good, but God didn't become man, suffer, and rise again to be a mascot for Ukrainianness. Religiously, their independence is a matter of indifference for me. I don't live in the Ukraine.

The Russians are right. De facto, ecclesiastically the Ukraine is theirs; autocephaly is up to them. Metropolitan Onuphrey is de facto the rightful Metropolitan of Kiev, the head of most of the Ukraine's Christians, the Orthodox. If all the Orthodox returned to us, de jure he would be metropolitan; Sviatoslav should either step aside (as Andrew Sheptytsky offered to do) or the two could co-exist but ultimately there would only be the Kiev metropolia. The Patriarch of Constantinople has no right to do what he's doing in the Ukraine.

Sviatoslav is not perfect: he harps on "rights" and religious liberty like a Western liberal. Frankly I tune him out.

Yes, I know the Kiev metropolia, not only all of the Ukraine but Byelorussia, was ours at one point, the 1596 unia, squashed by Russian expansion and persecution, but that's water under the bridge. We ought to be concerned with reconciling all the Orthodox now, not holding grudges.

Remember, our goal is to bring BOTH Constantinople and Moscow back into the church. We are not trying to break up the Orthodox, so we should not try to pit Constantinople against Moscow.

This battle of the canonical patriarchs shows there is no such thing as the Orthodox Church; they're all independent. There is an Orthodox tradition, but only the Catholic Church has authority. But again, we are not trying to break them up. They need to get their house in order in the Ukraine. The best thing we can do is stay out of it and pray.

In practice among the Orthodox around the world it's not a big deal because Russians and Greeks don't mix (they speak different languages and sing different music) and so far the other patriarchs remain in communion with both.

I do think the U.S. government is behind some of the trouble in the Ukraine; they're still fighting Russia. For heaven's sake, why? Our left are angry that it's not Communist anymore and is authoritarian and Christian. Hooray for Putin's Russia. Beats social-justice warrior America. I have a portrait of the Tsar in my living room and yes, I'm Catholic.

The Crimea is Russia; I'm happy for them, getting what they wanted. Arguably so is the eastern Ukraine but I won't push that. Everybody I've known from there, including the Crimea, didn't want to be in a separate country.

P.S. The Ukrainian parish I go to is not very nationalistic. Everybody there I know is like the Rusyns; their families came to America before World War I when there was no nation of the Ukraine and they didn't much care which country their villages belonged to. They were from Austria-Hungary; Galicia. They're second-generation, speaking English, but Ukrainian is their first language and they can switch back to it just like that. The ethnicity is there but not promoted; the church sign says "Eastern Catholic," not Ukrainian, hoping to get non-Ukrainian seekers, who so far aren't forthcoming. Services are 90% English. It's a tightrope: suppress the ethnicity or become an ethnic club and either way the community would be doomed. The parish is doing what it should.
Posted By: Ecaterina

Re: Ukrainian autocephaly - 12/20/18 02:57 PM

Moscow broke communion with Constantinople over this and Constantinople said they refuse to break communion with Moscow.
I pray and hope God intervenes once again and pacify His bishops. Up to this point it really looks like it's more a show of power from Constantinople vs. Moscow and vice versa.
Both Russian and Greek Orthodoxy are very influent and we all respect them both. But the discussion about the purity of one vs the other does not give sign of Faith but of pride.
And yes the politicians who always win something when the Church can be manipulated as an organization and not as the spiritual Bride of Christ.
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic

Re: Ukrainian autocephaly - 12/20/18 05:39 PM

Dear Fogey,

Actually, you are completely wrong re: Ukraine belonging to Moscow. Completely and absolutely and you defend the Russian position which is your right, of course.

As for cultural identify of the Churches, Christ DID tell His Apostles to baptize all NATIONS. It is impossible to even conceive of a church that is somehow without a cultural orientation. Not in the Orthodox Chuches, and not in the Roman Catholic. It is a very American thing to conceive of a church which is culturally neutral (meaning "American").

As for politics, it has been going on within the Russian Orthodox Church for a few centuries, are we only now beginning to notice? Do we think the MP is free of political intrusions from the Russian government? Again, it's a free country. And in any event, the Ukrainian Orthodox have are moving ahead with their dream of an autocephalous Church with or without our permission or discussion.

And "Svyatoslav" (is he some buddy of yours we don't know about?) is saying what Ukrainians in general would say. You speak of the situation as if the EP is granting the Tomos of Autocephaly unilaterally and without referencing the Ukrainian Orthodox, including hierarchs from the MP, who petitioned the EP for it. There are also many in the MP in Ukraine who will leave it for the new Autoceaphalous and Canonical Ukrainian Orthodox Church and that process is only beginning. You won't be able to convince Ukrainians that they should somehow be under Moscow. Yes, they have rights and aspirations for freedom from an "elder brother" who has smothered them spiritually, culturally and nationally for too long. You have the right to defend the ROC position. But many will tune you out as well.

Alex
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic

Re: Ukrainian autocephaly - 12/20/18 05:53 PM

Dear Ecaterina,

Greetings from this half-Romanian! I noticed that in your post about the Ukrainian Orthodox situation you never once mentioned anything about what the Ukrainian Orthodox want - only the struggle between Constantinople and Moscow. In fact, the Ukrainian Orthodox hierarchs - including hierarchs from the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, Moscow Patriarchate signed a petition to Constantinople for the EP to grant them a Tomos of Autocephaly just as the Romanian Orthodox Church is an autocephlous patriarchate.

To understand this situation, we need to delve into church history and the history of the ROC with respect to the Church of Kyiv. I will be working on a doctorate in this area of study and suffice it to say that it is both complex as well as fascinating. The Moscow Patriarchate not only claims Ukraine as part of its jurisdiction but also blames Rome for renewing the Union of Brest with the comeback of the Ukrainian Greco-Catholic Church after 1991. So both the Young Fogey and myself are already in Moscow's bad books for being aligned with the Ukrainian Catholic Church (I dont know if this will prompt the Young Fogey to reconsider his attendance at a UGCC parish since he seems to be squarely on the side of the ROC . . . kidding! ).

The church situation over there is now very delicate and we all need to handle it with . . . prayer.

Trieste Romania!

Alex
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic

Re: Ukrainian autocephaly - 12/20/18 06:13 PM

Just a note to say that I did not come back here to bicker but I stand behind what I said above. I wish everyone a happy and holy Nativity season and New Year!

Alex
Posted By: theophan

Re: Ukrainian autocephaly - 12/20/18 06:54 PM

The young fogey--

Christ is in our midst!!
Quote
Anyway, this whole row in the Ukraine is unseemly and makes our work, of bringing ALL the Orthodox into the church, so much harder.


I don't know if you have ever followed any ecumenical dialogues or the Catholic Church's ecumenical statements since 1965, but I am aghast at a statement like this after 1965. The Apostolic Churches, of which the Orthodox Church is one were never under the authority of the Pope of Rome in history. And the goal of our ecumenical efforts, as Archimandrite Robert Taft of thrice blessed memory once put it in an interview posted by link on this forum, is communion. In fact, that is all Fr. Robert said we would ever get or hope to get. The Orthodox Churches are already IN the Church established by Christ and have been since their establishment by various Apostles--other than St. Peter.

In addition, the current Roman definitions of papal authority--the papal claims--were not articulated in the current form until Vatican I. If you want a real look at history, you would have to understand that Rome spoke in terms or mediating various disputes, but was outside the mainstream after the Empire moved east to the Bosporus.

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. . . the original canonical Orthodox there, the Russian Orthodox Church, Metropolitan Onuphrey of Kiev, and what was ex-Metropolitan Filaret's Kyiv Patriarchate, now Constantinople's metropolia there possibly becoming autocephalous: Metropolitan Epifany.


I don't fully understand how the Orthodox determine who is "canonical" and who is "uncanonical," but it seems to me to be a bit more fluid than stating that one group is canonical and another is not. Six months ago there were two groups in Ukraine that were considered uncanonical by the rest of the Orthodox world. Suddenly the EP recognized them and they are canonical. And there is no mass ordination of each and every cleric involved. So stating "the original canonical Orthodox" is something that can change overnight.

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The Russians are right. De facto, ecclesiastically the Ukraine is theirs; autocephaly is up to them. Metropolitan Onuphrey is de facto the rightful Metropolitan of Kiev, the head of most of the Ukraine's Christians, the Orthodox. If all the Orthodox returned to us, de jure he would be metropolitan


There is just too much packed into a few sentences to comment about. See Dr. Roman's comments above. If he can do a whole doctoral dissertation on this historical and religious situation, it flies in the face of reality to make simple statements like this. Actually, it can be argued that the "rightful Metropolitan of Kiev" is Major Archbishop Sviatoslav since at one point in history the entire Kyvan hierarchy--with the exception of two who fled to Russia--moved to communion with Rome due to many factors. So there is more than one person who can make claim to that title.

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We ought to be concerned with reconciling all the Orthodox now


I think this statement needs the addition of "with." We ought to be concerned with reconciling WITH all the Orthodox now. Remember Fr.Taft's statement that all we will ever get is communion, nothing more.

I made a post here once that seemed to sum up some of these issues. One thing I believe is that the Vatican's Oriental Congregation would have to be abolished. No eastern bishop would ever again answer to a Roman body of any kind. If an issue came up, the issue would go to that bishop's synod or patriarch and wold be dealt with there. Any issue between patriarchates would have to be dealt with by some sort of ad hoc committee appointed by the various heads of the Churches and any actions would only be binding by consent. There would be no presumption that the Latin patriarch would make binding statements for the whole Church without consultation and consent by the other patriarchs. There were other points, but you get the idea.

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This battle of the canonical patriarchs shows there is no such thing as the Orthodox Church; they're all independent. There is an Orthodox tradition, but only the Catholic Church has authority.


This is so over the top it defies any kind of rational answer. Please read the Documents of Vatican II for the Catholic Church's position on these matters: sister Churches; authority, etc.

As for your contention that people did not care what country their village was in, the fact is that the Church defended and preserved the culture and identity of people when the political landscape changed. It was this way in Poland where the Latin Catholic Church kept Polish identity alive when the country was partitioned three times in history. Ukraine is similar in that the Ukrainian Church kept the culture and identity alive when the area was conquered by outside forces, whether Russian or Austro-Hungarian empire, among others. If that were not so, why did Khrushchev try to erase Ukrainian identity during his tenure as head of the Soviet Union--I am old enough to remember reading about this in the news. And why has the ROC tried so hard to russianize the Ukrainian Church, if this were not so?

The fact that the American Catholic Church has such a loose hold on people is that there was a movement to stifle ethnic identity among our people in the last century. And the carry-over reached the Eastern Catholic Churches, causing the so many people to go to the OCA and ACROD. My home parish was originally Irish and German. Everything was on some sort of detente between the two groups until the southern and eastern Europeans came along and the pastor forced the parish to accept them "because we are all Americans now." Well, that didn't go over so well and the tension was still present when I left there, after being a seething thing for the better part of the 20th century.

But, pat yourself on the back today because you've probably set back any ecumenical progress of the past 50+ years with your post above.

In the meantime, you owe our Orthodox brethren an apology for your unkind, un-Christian statements.

Bob
Moderator
Posted By: ast82401

Re: Ukrainian autocephaly - 12/20/18 11:21 PM

Dear Young Fogey,
Just to echo Bob's statements above, I find what you have said extremely uncharitable towards Ukraine (yes Ukraine, NOT the Ukraine) and towards the Orthodox Church as a whole. I agree with you on the fact that being a Christian is about Christ first and foremost, not ethnicity. However, ethnicity, just like religion, is very important to people's identity. For many years, the Russians have tried to destroy Ukrainian culture and Russify the Ukrainian people, as Bob has said. So I, along with many others, would only think it natural and in fact logical to want to have a Ukrainian Church independent from Russia where they do not have to be forced to use Russian music or Church Slavonic. They should be able to use the Ukrainian language in their liturgy and preserve their customs. Just a side note here, I must say I was horrified about the way you spoke about Patriarch Sviatoslav. He is a wonderful man who has done much for his flock. Comparing a bishop of the Church to a western liberal is extremely disrespectful, especially a bishop such as Patriarch Sviatoslav who has nothing but love for God and his Church. Charity forbids me from mentioning worse things that some of the Latin bishops have done, but keep in mind that some bishops are worse than others. And let's be real here, if Constantinople had not stepped in and helped Ukraine gain independence, there would never have been an independent Ukrainian Church. Russia had their opportunity to help create an autocephalous Church, yet they have done nothing except creating a Russian-controlled Patriarchate.
May God bless you
Posted By: The young fogey

Re: Ukrainian autocephaly - 12/21/18 01:20 AM

"All right; I'll GO to hell."

Seriously, you're not getting any apology.

Alexander: A hierarchical church isn't run by mob rule. Most of the Ukraine was an integral part of the Russian empire for centuries; its east is Russian. The people I've known from Kharkov and Simferopol are. Obviously, ecclesiastically this has been Moscow's turf for centuries. That patriarch grants autocephaly there. Not Constantinople nor any other. I understand about half of the country's Orthodox are happy under Metropolitan Onuphrey, the real Metropolitan of Kiev. I know the Russians hate our mere existence. We've sure got our work cut out for us reconciling them AND Constantinople et al. to the church! Jesus never promised us a rose garden; "take up your cross and follow me." Reconciling these estranged Catholics to the church is God's will; a priority job. Anyway, the damage to relations that Uniatism caused is why I brought up Metropolitan Andrew (Sheptytsky)'s gracious offer to step down. Metropolitan Sviatoslav should do that IF all the Orthodox come back. (Sheptytsky should be the patron saint of Latin Catholics called to move to the East.)

Bob: Catholic teaching CAN'T change, no matter what erroneous readings of Vatican II such as Elias (Zoghby)'s say. EVERY ancient church, including us, claims to be the only true one. So do the Orthodox. Think I'M mean? Actually one of the things that sold me on Catholicism is we recognize a great Catholic family of valid orders even estranged from us. We include the Orthodox. They don't include us. Strictly speaking, not only don't they recognize our orders. They don't recognize our baptisms! Few rebaptize but it's a valid option among them. Born Orthodox get the benefit of the doubt; after all, I worship with them! There is an Orthodox TRADITION I am happily a part of. But there is only one CHURCH, the Catholic Church. "Sister churches": see above on the great Catholic family. The Archdiocese of New York and the local Greek Orthodox metropolis are sister churches, albeit estranged, one being outside the church. The Catholic Church as a whole has no sisters. Too many people think there can be "intercommunion" like two mainline Protestant denominations trading altar and pulpit privileges. Not so here. You don't "enter communion with Rome" or with Orthodoxy; you become Catholic or Orthodox. If you don't think the true church is under the Pope, you're not really Catholic.

That said, I am all for an Orthodox-like loose communion run almost entirely by custom. It's how the medieval West was too! So mine includes the Pope, the Latin Mass, etc. Not just Greece, Russia, etc. My ancestral England, Germany, and Spain! (Western Rite Orthodoxy is culturally fake. Not generational communities like Eastern Catholics.)

EVERYTHING that's not doctrine is on the table.

Abolish the Congregation for the Eastern Churches? Yes! At last, something we have in common!

I have no use for the late Archimandrite Robert (Taft). God have mercy on him.

I am a traditionalist. Funny thing, though, Bob: radical traditionalists think I'm you! What with my consorting with the Orthodox and telling these folks that no, they can't have public recitation of the Rosary in Byzantine Catholic churches. "But Our Lady promised all these graces for the WHOLE chuuuuuuuurch!" Then I have to explain that private revelation isn't our doctrine, the church protects the integrity of its rites, and the Roman Rite parish is a few blocks over if you want that stuff. "Now run along; God bless you."

That two canonical Orthodox churches are at each other's throats, excommunicating each other and not recognizing each other's orders (which theologically is hash), etc., shreds the whole notion of canonical Orthodoxy! You just have a gaggle of bishops who happen to have valid orders and a traditional rite. Again: there is no Orthodox Church.

Church Slavonic is the traditional liturgical language of Ukrainian Catholics.

Sure; I can criticize Metropolitan Sviatoslav. I'm not a priest; I don't have to work with him. Being Catholic doesn't mean you have to believe he and the current setup with Byzantine Catholics are perfect. We actually hope this setup is temporary! I mentioned earlier that the fact that it's not perfect reminds me we have a lot of work to do to reconcile the Orthodox.
Posted By: theophan

Re: Ukrainian autocephaly - 12/21/18 02:09 AM

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"All right; I'll GO to hell."


Christ is in our midst!!

YF:

No one has asked you to or told you to or demanded that you GO. I have to wonder about the great hatred you seem to hold inside. That hatred is not something you obtain by staying close to Christ, to the Church, or to the sacramental system given to us to help root out this sort of thing. It's something that rots the soul.

I'm truly sorry for you.

I recommend you go to Town Hall and reread the "Who we are" post by Neil and then reconsider if this forum is a good fit for you. We can disagree here but the tone is not something we encourage. Our goal is to learn to see the world through the eyes of our brethren who are placed by the Lord in other places than we are. One thing I have learned in over a half century working with all kinds of people, including those who have no faith whatsoever, is that people don't NEED us. What we have been given is for us to give away, to share. No one likes to receive anything from anyone who is abrasive. The question we ultimately have to answer is whether we have been the face of Christ to those around us--have we been drawing people to us, to what we have, to what we believe, to how we live. If not, we have failed twice:we have failed the Lord Who has given us this mission by our initiation into Him and we have failed our brother or sister in the human family to whom we have been sent in the moment.

Bob
Moderator
Posted By: ast82401

Re: Ukrainian autocephaly - 12/21/18 02:09 AM

First of all, Church Slavonic is the traditional language of Ukrainian Catholics, just as Latin is the traditional language of Roman Catholics, but we see how often Latin is used in mass don't we? There is no point in using a language that people don't understand if they don't want to use it. If Sts. Cyril and Methodius shared your attitude, they would have kept the liturgy in Greek. I strongly disagree with your statement that the Orthodox Patriarchates aren't in communion with each other (with the obvious exceptions of the ones that have excommunicated each other). Your only reasoning is that they are different ethnic groups, so they're not united. Couldn't the same be said of the Catholic Church? And just so everyone reading this is aware, I am not bashing the Catholic Church nor am I promoting either religion above the other. That's not what I'm about. But just as the Orthodox Church has issues, so does the Catholic Church. There's the SSPX, "Catholic" Women priest, Old Catholics and other groups that all call themselves Catholic. Not to mention, there is a huge division in the Latin church between traditionalists and modern priests with traditional priests often being reprimanded by their bishops for simply following tradition. It is the unfortunate reality that both the Catholics and the Orthodox have problems that we must sort out. With God's help, we will solve these issues but it won't happen if all we do is fight each other over things that should have been worked out ages ago.
Posted By: theophan

Re: Ukrainian autocephaly - 12/21/18 02:20 AM

Christ is in our midst!!

This thread is off its original topic and I am locking it.

Bob
Moderator
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