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Pope Francis gives relics of St. Peter to Orthodox patriarch

Posted By: Santiago Tarsicio

Pope Francis gives relics of St. Peter to Orthodox patriarch - 07/02/19 07:38 PM

In what Orthodox Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople described as a "brave and bold" gesture, Pope Francis gave the patriarch a famous reliquary containing bone fragments believed to belong to St. Peter.

The bronze case contains nine of the bone fragments discovered during excavations of the necropolis under St. Peter's Basilica that began in the 1940s.

In the 1960s, archaeologist Margherita Guarducci published a paper asserting that she had found St. Peter's bones near the site identified as his tomb.

While no pope has ever declared the bones to be authentic, St. Paul VI announced in 1968 that the "relics" of St. Peter had been "identified in a way which we can hold to be convincing."

https://www.catholicregister.org/fa...relics-of-st-peter-to-orthodox-patriarch

An unprecedented gesture: Pope Francis, following the established ceremony repeated each year by the representative of the Ecumenical Throne and the Pope at the Church of Rome's Thronic Feast, both went to worship at the tomb of Apostle Peter in St. Peter’s Basilica. There, the Pope whispered to Archbishop Job of Telmessos that he wanted to send a gift to Constantinople to his brother Bartholomew, a gift for which his inspiration came during the evening prayer on the day of the Thronic Feast.

These were relics of St. Peter, contained in a reliquary placed in the pontifical chapel of the papal apartments of the so-called Vatican Apostolic Quarter.

The fact of this donation comes just one week after the conference held in Naples on June 20 and 21, on the importance, value and contribution of theology to the modern world, and especially to the Mediterranean world. A conference to which the Patriarch had sent an important message, and Pope Francis told delegates and journalists that "Brother Bartholomew is a precursor to many ideas that we, too, have embraced."

https://www.archons.org/-/pope-relics-st-peter

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Posted By: Irish_Ruthenian

Re: Pope Francis gives relics of St. Peter to Orthodox patriarch - 07/03/19 01:37 PM

And Traditional Latin Roman Catholics are having kittens over this.
Posted By: Santiago Tarsicio

Re: Pope Francis gives relics of St. Peter to Orthodox patriarch - 07/03/19 04:51 PM

Common veneration of relics is one of the tools Pope Francis is using to foster ecumenical relations with the Eastern Orthodox Churches. In May, relics of St. Philip and St. Nicholas were transported to Turkey and Russia, respectively. They have been exposed for the veneration of the Orthodox faithful from the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople and the Patriarchate of Moscow.

The transportation of the relics of St. Nicholas from the Italian city of Bari to Moscow is particularly noteworthy. It is the first time in 930 years that a part of the body of St. Nicholas has left Bari for veneration abroad. The novel action comes after a specific request Russian Orthodox Patriarch Kirill of Moscow made to Pope Francis when they met in Havana, Cuba in February 2016.

Archbishop Cacucci discussed the letter Pope Francis had sent him to about the Patriarch’s request. The archbishop explained that, for Pope Francis, the veneration of relics is “an essential part of the path toward the re-establishment of full communion among all Christians.” “The common veneration of saints help us to look at the ecumenical dialogue with a light of hope,” he said. St. Nicholas was one of the most venerated saints in Christianity even before his relics were taken from Myra, Turkey, by 62 sailors from Bari in 1087. Those sailors made an expedition to Myra to save St. Nicholas’ relics from Muslims who had conquered the city where St. Nicholas had lived and served as a bishop in the fourth century.

St. Nicholas’ relics will be in Moscow until July 12. They will then move to St. Petersburg for several weeks before returning to Bari July 28.

While the Russian Orthodox Patriarchate received St. Nicholas’ relics from the Church of Rome, the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople on May 8 welcomed relics of St. Philip in the Turkish city of Izmir, better known by its ancient Greek name: Smyrna. St. Philip evangelized that land and was martyred there. His relics had been secured in Rome’s Santi Apostoli Church since the sixth century. Last year, the relics were taken out and submitted to an examination. Then, they were exposed for a while for the veneration of the faithful.

Orthodox Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople strongly advocated sharing the relics for veneration, as he is particularly devoted to St. Philip. The Catholic community joined the Patriarch in this request, and so one of St. Philip’s relic could return home. The Catholic Archbishop of Izmir Lorenzo Piretto personally forwarded the request to bring the relics to the Turkish city.

The common veneration of saints and relics is one area where ecumenism is performed today.

It echoes Pope Francis’ idea of “walking ecumenism,” which he described in an Oct. 12 meeting with members of the Conference of Secretaries of Christian World Communions. In his remarks, the Pope said that “it is important that theologians study, that they find agreement and identify disagreements.” But, he added, “ecumenism is done by walking and by walking with Jesus.” It is “a simple path, traveled with prayer and through helping one another.”

This “walking ecumenism” is also emphasized through the veneration of the same saints. Patriarch Kirill seems to think the same. Bari’s Archbishop Cacucci, having returned from Russia where he accompanied St. Nicholas’ relic, reflected on the phenomenon. “In fact, the translation of the relic is already an ecumenical dialogue, and this Patriarch Kirill said more and more times. When ecumenism does not involve only the top ranks of Churches or theologians, but rather involves the people of God, then it is possible to move forward.”

http://cbcpnews.net/cbcpnews/can-relics-unite-catholics-and-orthodox-pope-francis-thinks-so/
Posted By: Santiago Tarsicio

Re: Pope Francis gives relics of St. Peter to Orthodox patriarch - 07/03/19 05:01 PM

Originally Posted by Irish_Ruthenian
And Traditional Latin Roman Catholics are having kittens over this.


They want everything for them!

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Posted By: ajk

Re: Pope Francis gives relics of St. Peter to Orthodox patriarch - 07/03/19 05:16 PM

Originally Posted by Irish_Ruthenian
And Traditional Latin Roman Catholics are having kittens over this.

To whom specifically do you refer?
Posted By: Irish_Ruthenian

Re: Pope Francis gives relics of St. Peter to Orthodox patriarch - 07/03/19 05:58 PM

Originally Posted by ajk
Originally Posted by Irish_Ruthenian
And Traditional Latin Roman Catholics are having kittens over this.

To whom specifically do you refer?


Do you not know what a Traditional Roman Catholic is?
Posted By: ajk

Re: Pope Francis gives relics of St. Peter to Orthodox patriarch - 07/03/19 06:08 PM

Originally Posted by Irish_Ruthenian
Originally Posted by ajk
Originally Posted by Irish_Ruthenian
And Traditional Latin Roman Catholics are having kittens over this.

To whom specifically do you refer?


Do you not know what a Traditional Roman Catholic is?

Based on your response, I have a much better understanding of "what a Traditional Roman Catholic is" than you have of what "specifically" means.
Posted By: ajk

Re: Pope Francis gives relics of St. Peter to Orthodox patriarch - 07/03/19 06:16 PM

Originally Posted by Santiago Tarsicio
Originally Posted by Irish_Ruthenian
And Traditional Latin Roman Catholics are having kittens over this.


They want everything for them!

So you know that this is their motivation for such piety? Are there possession of relics of the Apostles claimed by Orthodox? Does having them mean others do not?
Posted By: Irish_Ruthenian

Re: Pope Francis gives relics of St. Peter to Orthodox patriarch - 07/03/19 06:17 PM

**sigh**

Okay.

1. Latin Mass only valid Mass

2. All Orthodox and Protestants going hell as schismatics.

3. No grace in Orthodox Sacraments.

4. Vatican II was an abomination.

5. Russia is to be converted to Roman Catholicism a la Fatima event.

6. Think Dimond Brothers and others like them
Posted By: ajk

Re: Pope Francis gives relics of St. Peter to Orthodox patriarch - 07/03/19 06:39 PM

Originally Posted by Irish_Ruthenian
**sigh**

Okay.

1. Latin Mass only valid Mass

2. All Orthodox and Protestants going hell as schismatics.

3. No grace in Orthodox Sacraments.

4. Vatican II was an abomination.

5. Russia is to be converted to Roman Catholicism a la Fatima event.

6. Think Dimond Brothers and others like them
This is not at all a fair characterization of the general term "Traditional Roman Catholic." The real issue, however, is that you have not answered my request. I'll ask again more explicitly. Give the forum a reference that you have, a link, to the comments or response that you have characterized as "having kittens." That way we can judge if they are indeed "having kittens" and who they are or if you are having another manifestation of what was already noted:
Originally Posted by Administrator
Irish Ruthenian: That you choose to refer to other Christians as "Protty" says more about you than it does about them. And what it says is not positive!
Posted By: Santiago Tarsicio

Re: Pope Francis gives relics of St. Peter to Orthodox patriarch - 07/03/19 06:50 PM

Originally Posted by Santiago Tarsicio
Common veneration of relics is one of the tools Pope Francis...

http://cbcpnews.net/cbcpnews/can-relics-unite-catholics-and-orthodox-pope-francis-thinks-so/


I forgot to mention that such events occurred a few years ago.


Originally Posted by ajk
Originally Posted by Santiago Tarsicio
Originally Posted by Irish_Ruthenian
And Traditional Latin Roman Catholics are having kittens over this.


They want everything for them!

So you know that this is their motivation for such piety? Are there possession of relics of the Apostles claimed by Orthodox? Does having them mean others do not?


No. My post was not serious; groups that are opposed to the Pope will always find reasons to oppose, I tried only to "imagine" what they could say or desire.
Posted By: Irish_Ruthenian

Re: Pope Francis gives relics of St. Peter to Orthodox patriarch - 07/03/19 06:57 PM

Originally Posted by ajk
Originally Posted by Irish_Ruthenian
**sigh**

Okay.

1. Latin Mass only valid Mass

2. All Orthodox and Protestants going hell as schismatics.

3. No grace in Orthodox Sacraments.

4. Vatican II was an abomination.

5. Russia is to be converted to Roman Catholicism a la Fatima event.

6. Think Dimond Brothers and others like them
This is not at all a fair characterization of the general term "Traditional Roman Catholic." The real issue, however, is that you have not answered my request. I'll ask again more explicitly. Give the forum a reference that you have, a link, to the comments or response that you have characterized as "having kittens." That way we can judge if they are indeed "having kittens" and who they are or if you are having another manifestation of what was already noted:
Originally Posted by Administrator
Irish Ruthenian: That you choose to refer to other Christians as "Protty" says more about you than it does about them. And what it says is not positive!




Perhaps you could take note that I did not use the disparaging term "Traddies" in referring to those who hold to a very conservative and ultra-traditional Roman Catholic position.

No....probably not. Beating on me appears to be more fun.
Posted By: Santiago Tarsicio

Re: Pope Francis gives relics of St. Peter to Orthodox patriarch - 07/03/19 07:18 PM

Originally Posted by ajk
Originally Posted by Irish_Ruthenian
And Traditional Latin Roman Catholics are having kittens over this.

To whom specifically do you refer?


I think that Irish_Ruthenian made reference to such types (read the matter and the comments): https://remnantnewspaper.com/web/in...o-schismatics-resist-francis-to-his-face
Posted By: Santiago Tarsicio

Re: Pope Francis gives relics of St. Peter to Orthodox patriarch - 07/03/19 07:35 PM

Another link (see also comments - I did not need to search too much, are already known environments): https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/pope-francis-gives-away-relics-of-st-peter
Posted By: Santiago Tarsicio

Re: Pope Francis gives relics of St. Peter to Orthodox patriarch - 07/03/19 08:15 PM

Originally Posted by Irish_Ruthenian
**sigh**

Okay.

1. Latin Mass only valid Mass

2. All Orthodox and Protestants going hell as schismatics.

3. No grace in Orthodox Sacraments.

4. Vatican II was an abomination.

5. Russia is to be converted to Roman Catholicism a la Fatima event.

6. Think Dimond Brothers and others like them


I think that "sociological categories" present in the Church are reductionist, generalizing. When I use, I am fully aware of it, but sometimes it is necessary to categorize certain groups or environments so that there can be minimal dialogue or discussion. Personally I think the traditionalista "category" is something wider and varied.

Thus, there are loyal traditionalists to the Pope of Rome and who accept the Second Vatican Council as Orthodox, such traditionalists are present in the FSSP, for example: https://www.fssp.org/en/

So if it were necessary to describe the "traditionalist category," I would personally describe it differently:

Traditionalism opts for the liturgical and disciplinary form prior to the VCII. It has a historical emphasis on the Tridentine reform. It proposes neotomist theology. It has a pastoral and catechetical sources: hagiographies, Magisterium before the VCII, Tradition and Scripture. Limited dialogue with the scientific community. Tends to be moralistic in ethics; conservative and right wing in the political field.

Given these characteristics, there are several possibilities within traditionalism: from the acceptance of the VCII and fidelity to the Pope of Rome, to the repudiation of the CVII and the post-conciliar Magisterium (a proto-schismatic mentality).
Posted By: Administrator

Re: Pope Francis gives relics of St. Peter to Orthodox patriarch - 07/03/19 11:11 PM

Originally Posted by Irish_Ruthenian
Perhaps you could take note that I did not use the disparaging term "Traddies" in referring to those who hold to a very conservative and ultra-traditional Roman Catholic position.

No....probably not. Beating on me appears to be more fun.

Congratulations on not using a second disparaging term. You seem to miss my point. Those who speak disparaging of others show themselves to be lacking in wisdom, and thus any opinion they might offer is not taken seriously. I recommend that you take a break from internet posting and concentrate on getting rid of your baggage.
Posted By: Irish_Ruthenian

Re: Pope Francis gives relics of St. Peter to Orthodox patriarch - 07/04/19 02:11 PM

Brood of Vipers

Whitewashed Sepulchers

Generation of Vipers

Hypocrites

Someone rather important in the Christian faith used such language in describing other human beings.

I note that you seem to care less that I am trying to learn. As for "getting rid of my baggage," I will discuss this with my spiritual director, who will probably agree with you (as I do) but will treat me with charity. (Some people are never on your side no matter what you do)

Posted By: Santiago Tarsicio

Re: Pope Francis gives relics of St. Peter to Orthodox patriarch - 07/04/19 05:59 PM

Personally I see Patriarch Bartholomew as a blessing to the Christian world, perhaps I have some affinity (yes, I know he has opposition in the orthodox world, just as Francis has opposition in the Catholic world too). Perhaps my vision of the Orthodox Church has even changed, more or less as Shevchuk said:

"I have to say, this step by the Church of Constantinople has destroyed certain schemes of ecumenical dialogue that took hold during the time of the Cold War. The primary and privileged interlocutor in this dialogue in the context of the Cold War and Ostpolitik was always Moscow. Dialogue with the entire Orthodox world was understood in this direction. Now, it has to be rethought, not only in terms of how to conduct the dialogue, which has to be updated, but the entire concept has to be rethought. There are various expressions of Orthodoxy. Perhaps this will be interesting for highlighting various forms of ecumenical dialogue. Up to this point, we Catholics often have projected upon the Orthodox world an ecclesial form that’s basically Catholic. A single Orthodoxy doesn’t exist, like there’s a single Catholic Church. What you have are various local Orthodox churches. It’s a mistake to consider one of these churches as an exclusive spokesman for all. I think the one that really has to be respected, according to the rules of the Orthodox world, is the Patriarch of Constantinople, because, he’s the first among equals. Therefore, this gesture is also a challenge. I’ve said that these two events will mark a new period in the history of the Universal Church. I don’t believe it will be an easy period, but definitely interesting, and also an impulse of the Holy Spirit."

https://cruxnow.com/synod-of-bishop...x-independence-is-affirmation-of-rights/

(I suppose an orthodox opponent might say yes, Bartholomew is inventing and so it is dangerous)
Posted By: Irish_Ruthenian

Re: Pope Francis gives relics of St. Peter to Orthodox patriarch - 07/04/19 06:17 PM

https://www.lifesitenews.com/news/pope-francis-gives-away-relics-of-st-peter
Posted By: griego catolico

Re: Pope Francis gives relics of St. Peter to Orthodox patriarch - 07/13/19 03:23 PM

I was surprised by the news when I first heard it, but then I learned that not all the relics of Saint Peter were given to Constantinople.

Personally, a much more impressive gifting of relics took place when Patriarch Kirill sent a relic of Saint Seraphim of Sarov to Pope Francis: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1x4S7NqPyWA
Posted By: Santiago Tarsicio

Re: Pope Francis gives relics of St. Peter to Orthodox patriarch - 07/13/19 10:17 PM

Originally Posted by griego catolico

Personally, a much more impressive gifting of relics took place when Patriarch Kirill sent a relic of Saint Seraphim of Sarov to Pope Francis: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1x4S7NqPyWA


Good thinking. Kirill was courageous and also received criticism.
The Pope in "reply" gave as a gift the relics of Saint Francis of Assisi: http://www.pravmir.com/patriarch-kirill-receives-piece-francis-assisi-relics-birthday-gift-pope/

Serafim and Francis were great saints of their respective traditions, but I think that the Prince of the Apostles has more "importance" in "ecumenical" relations and for history.
Posted By: griego catolico

Re: Pope Francis gives relics of St. Peter to Orthodox patriarch - 08/08/19 04:17 AM

Hmmm, I was thinking today...

At one time the Basilica of Saint Peter was the patriarchal church of the Patriarchate of Constantinople, albeit the Latin one, now abolished.

Then I read this:

Quote
A patriarchal basilica used to refer to those churches at Rome ceremonially assigned to one of the Patriarchs. It must be distinguished from the concept of a major basilica which is a canonical class of church which includes four of the five patriarchal basilicas (excluding St Lawrence's) but which has been more generally extended to include any of several churches in which the high altar is reserved to the Pope or his representative.

Since the early 13th century, the "patriarchs" referred to in the title Patriarchal Basilicas were the Latin Rite ceremonial Patriarchs who lived as ornaments of the Papal Court and are now abolished, not the Eastern Patriarchs of those same cities. Before the late 20th century there was also a wish, never realised, that the basilicas would be seen as pertaining to the Eastern Catholic (or Orthodox) Patriarchs of the same cities to which the titles applied. In other words, once these Patriarchs were "reconciled" to the Catholic Church, these basilicas would become their Roman bases.

In 2006, Pope Benedict XVI formally abolished the title of “patriarchal basilica” previously given to these churches, and they should now be referred to a "papal basilicas". The traditional associations with the Five Ancient Patriarchates remain, but without any official standing.

The name patriarchal referred to these churches each having been assigned to one of the patriarchs. There were five:

San Giovanni in Laterano (St John Lateran, the Pope)
San Pietro in Vaticano (St Peter's Basilica, Patriarch of Constantinople)
Santa Maria Maggiore (St Mary Major, Patriarch of Antioch)
San Paolo fuori le mura (St Paul outside the Walls, Patriarch of Alexandria)
San Lorenzo fuori le Mura (St. Lawrence outside the Walls, Patriarch of Jerusalem)

Source.

Having read this, it doesn't seem to be unusual now to me that Pope Francis would gift some relics of Saint Peter to the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople. Maybe His Holiness Francis sees Saint Peter Basilica as belonging to His All Holiness Bartholomew. I know it's a stretch of the imagination, but who knows...
Posted By: Santiago Tarsicio

Re: Pope Francis gives relics of St. Peter to Orthodox patriarch - 09/26/19 10:15 PM

Originally Posted by griego catolico
Hmmm, I was thinking today...

At one time the Basilica of Saint Peter was the patriarchal church of the Patriarchate of Constantinople, albeit the Latin one, now abolished.

Then I read this:

Quote
A patriarchal basilica used to refer to those churches at Rome ceremonially assigned to one of the Patriarchs. It must be distinguished from the concept of a major basilica which is a canonical class of church which includes four of the five patriarchal basilicas (excluding St Lawrence's) but which has been more generally extended to include any of several churches in which the high altar is reserved to the Pope or his representative.

Since the early 13th century, the "patriarchs" referred to in the title Patriarchal Basilicas were the Latin Rite ceremonial Patriarchs who lived as ornaments of the Papal Court and are now abolished, not the Eastern Patriarchs of those same cities. Before the late 20th century there was also a wish, never realised, that the basilicas would be seen as pertaining to the Eastern Catholic (or Orthodox) Patriarchs of the same cities to which the titles applied. In other words, once these Patriarchs were "reconciled" to the Catholic Church, these basilicas would become their Roman bases.

In 2006, Pope Benedict XVI formally abolished the title of “patriarchal basilica” previously given to these churches, and they should now be referred to a "papal basilicas". The traditional associations with the Five Ancient Patriarchates remain, but without any official standing.

The name patriarchal referred to these churches each having been assigned to one of the patriarchs. There were five:

San Giovanni in Laterano (St John Lateran, the Pope)
San Pietro in Vaticano (St Peter's Basilica, Patriarch of Constantinople)
Santa Maria Maggiore (St Mary Major, Patriarch of Antioch)
San Paolo fuori le mura (St Paul outside the Walls, Patriarch of Alexandria)
San Lorenzo fuori le Mura (St. Lawrence outside the Walls, Patriarch of Jerusalem)

Source.

Having read this, it doesn't seem to be unusual now to me that Pope Francis would gift some relics of Saint Peter to the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople. Maybe His Holiness Francis sees Saint Peter Basilica as belonging to His All Holiness Bartholomew. I know it's a stretch of the imagination, but who knows...


Well, the basilicas in Rome were associated with the Latin patriarchates, today suppressed - except the Latin Patriarchate of Jerusalem, which must subsist, for there are even Jews converted into the Latin Rite in Jerusalem. Currently they are only papal basilicas.

The gesture seems to me to be the result of friendship, Francis and Bartholomew are true friends.

Also:

Benedict XVI did not use the title of Patriarch of the West, the old understanding of West and East is obsolete, the world is globalized and Christians live in diaspora - besides there are Protestant Christians, title of "Patriarch of the West" would be more ideological than properly real.
Posted By: Ecaterina

Re: Pope Francis gives relics of St. Peter to Orthodox patriarch - 10/24/19 12:40 PM

I have discussed with some Rad Trads and not all have contempt for the Orthodox. Anyway, everything that some of them [I have heard of] say, I have definitely heard from the other side (EO Rad Trads). Almost word per word.
They should send them to the inter-faith discussions. :-)
I respect their akrivia but do they ever experience self-doubt? Because the saints doubted visions they were receiving. They wouldn't just jump in and say it's from God because they think or feel a certain way. Especially about the destiny of the Church.
When was the Church presided by Her best Bishop? At the Last Supper. Was She perfect them? No, look, Judas received the Eucharist but still could not use It properly in order to overcome his temptations. Furthermore, did Christ curse Judas based on His correct visions? No. Did He curse Peter for other visions? No. He loved and cared for all His Apostles.
A Church that abstains from cursing and judging is not a "feminine" Church (like some rad trads say). Or a weak Church.
There are many wondrous Saints who help us in many wonderful ways, but the root of the Church is Jesus Christ. And He carried a Cross for everyone else.
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