www.byzcath.org

Protestants Convert More Eastern Catholics

Posted By: Ray S.

Protestants Convert More Eastern Catholics - 05/04/05 10:39 PM

I was driving home from work today and decided to listen to the hateful Anti-Catholic radio program PrimeTime America

They had a program on the Aramaic Bible Translation mission. This mission is run by Joel Badal who is a descendant of the Chaldean Catholic Church. Joel's mission is to convert all the Chaldean Catholics into Christians. He is doing this by providing the Jesus Film which has been dubbed into Aramaic. He is generously funded by the Moody Bible institute and other Evangelical groups.

What really made me mad was the fact he had the nerve to put a picture of a Chaldean Catholic Church Chaldean on his website! mad

I am still trying to understand how ecumenism is helping the people who “have found the true faith, and we adore the undivided Trinity” confused

WHEN ARE WE GOING TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT THESE PEOPLE?
Posted By: Ray S.

Re: Protestants Convert More Eastern Catholics - 05/04/05 10:47 PM

If you lived back in the days of the mostly saintly Pope Urban II you would be knighted for your efforts.

Pope Urban II pray for us!
Posted By: Yuhannon

Re: Protestants Convert More Eastern Catholics - 05/04/05 11:30 PM

Shlomo Ray,

We are on the same page. Go see what I posted in the Town Hall section under:

Is Our Alliance With Evangelical Christians Sound?

Poosh BaShlomo,
Yuhannon
Posted By: Ray S.

Re: Protestants Convert More Eastern Catholics - 05/04/05 11:40 PM

Two opinions on this forum which I value a lot are:

Dr. Alex's & the Admin.

I would really like to hear from both of them.


Regarding the question what are we going to do about this. From the Admin. point he is already doing something i.e byzcath
However, where is the leadership in our Church on these issues? Are we just going slowly die and spend our time and energy fighting on translation of the liturgy?

In my humble opinion the LAST thing the leadership of the Church should be worried about is new translation of the Liturgy. We have crisis of faith not a crisis of Liturgy.

The solution is simple EVANGELIZE, EVANGELIZE, EVANGELIZE!
Posted By: Tammy

Re: Protestants Convert More Eastern Catholics - 05/04/05 11:55 PM

I really hate it that they describe themselves as "Christian" vs. us as "Catholics" as though Catholicism is somehow NOT Christian.

Quote
Originally posted by Ray Stiegler:
Joel's mission is to convert all the Chaldean Catholics into Christians.
I got a phone call a couple of days ago from someone who wanted to order a Paternoster from my site. She said she was not Catholic. Then she asked if I was Christian. I answered, "Yes, I'm Catholic."

Tammy
Posted By: Carson Daniel

Re: Protestants Convert More Eastern Catholics - 05/05/05 12:32 AM

Ray,

Are these efforts at all successful? None of your links indicate so.

If we are serious about helping the Chaldean Church survive and evangelize Iraq I should think we might ask them how we can help. Would sending missionaries help? Would sending them money?

Dan L
Posted By: Ray S.

Re: Protestants Convert More Eastern Catholics - 05/05/05 12:44 AM

Dan,

This is a bigger issue than just the Chaldean-Rite. We have lost our Evangelization Zeal!
Posted By: Milliardo

Re: Protestants Convert More Eastern Catholics - 05/05/05 01:00 AM

I agree: ecumenism has become a malais to us Catholics, that there are those who consider all denominations as "the same". Though we should have a positive outlook on Protestants, it should not mean that we should abandon evangelization of Protestants or fall into a false sense of unity, when clearly there is none yet, and even worse, these people do not view Catholics the same way we view them.
Posted By: Carson Daniel

Re: Protestants Convert More Eastern Catholics - 05/05/05 01:12 AM

Quote
Originally posted by Ray Stiegler:
Dan,

This is a bigger issue than just the Chaldean-Rite. We have lost our Evangelization Zeal!
Quite so. Quite so. Nevertheless, you did use the Chaldean Church as your only illustration. Are we only to complain about our lack of zeal or are we going to do something about it?

Dan L
Posted By: Milliardo

Re: Protestants Convert More Eastern Catholics - 05/05/05 02:14 AM

I've actually addressed the issue here: http://www.byzcath.org/cgibin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=9;t=000049
Posted By: Irish Melkite

Re: Protestants Convert More Eastern Catholics - 05/05/05 11:27 AM

Quote
Originally posted by Ray Stiegler:
This mission is run by Joel Badal who is a descendant of the Chaldean Catholic Church. Joel's mission is to convert all the Chaldean Catholics into Christians.
Ray,

Judging by his surname, Badal is probably indeed either an ethnic Chaldean or Assyrian. He's actually pastor of an Evangelical Free Church in Erie, IL. I suspect that his evangelization efforts are directed toward the large Chaldean and Assyrian communities in the Chicago area, rather than in their native countries.

I notice that the Jesus Project has managed to secure an endorsement from His Beatitude Mar Dinkha IV (who's situated in the Chicago area) for the Aramaic Bible Translation. It's pretty much a certainty that His Beatitude was unaware of the Project's ties to anyone wanting or planning to evangelize among his people.

Many years,

Neil
Posted By: Carson Daniel

Re: Protestants Convert More Eastern Catholics - 05/05/05 12:08 PM

Neil,

Where did you find out that he's from Erie? The best I could come up with is West Chicago. But if he is from Erie it is absolutely fascinating to me. My last Methodist Church was in a neighboring town of Erie. A new Doctor came to town who was from Assyria. I asked her about her Orthodox background. She said she had converted to Protestantism, but wasn't interested in my Methodist Church.

Fascinating that people from Assyria would wind up in the very rural area of West Central Illinois 150 miles from Chicago. My guess would be that this group is the attraction.

Dan L
Posted By: Mexican

Re: Protestants Convert More Eastern Catholics - 05/06/05 06:28 PM

Well guys,

i can't believe how so many people just can't see the truth about these Evangelicals and engage in dialogue and charitable works with them.

No matter how "charitable" they look, all their acts are meant to convert people to their false religion and their falsified gospel. These people are enemies of our faith.

Attending their services regularly and engaging in activities with them is like biting a sword!
They have a political agenda behind them, I just can't believe how people don't see the truth. It's the religion of the One-World-Government and the masonic order that is being imposed against our wills.
Posted By: Mr. Clean

Re: Protestants Convert More Eastern Catholics - 05/06/05 09:11 PM

Here is one way to help the Churches of the East - in their countries of origin and here as well.

http://www.cnewa.org/easternchurchesoutside.htm
Posted By: Milliardo

Re: Protestants Convert More Eastern Catholics - 05/07/05 01:40 PM

Quote
Originally posted by Mexican:
Well guys,

i can't believe how so many people just can't see the truth about these Evangelicals and engage in dialogue and charitable works with them.

No matter how "charitable" they look, all their acts are meant to convert people to their false religion and their falsified gospel. These people are enemies of our faith.

Attending their services regularly and engaging in activities with them is like biting a sword!
They have a political agenda behind them, I just can't believe how people don't see the truth. It's the religion of the One-World-Government and the masonic order that is being imposed against our wills.
Actually, my reflection on these groups are quite the same, that they're the arm of some one-world-government monopoly. I am wary of such groups.
Posted By: nicholas

Re: Protestants Convert More Eastern Catholics - 05/07/05 02:17 PM

Same old errors. I wonder if many 'evangelical' groups aren't really arians in new clothes? Usually they have some old heresy hidden secretly in the evangelical zeal.

Ecumenism is wonderful, and it is good to respect others, and recognize the good where it is.

However, the 'your way is fine for you' and 'my way is fine for me' attitude won't work. We have to be ready to respect people, and also state truth (and name error) firmly and clearly.
Posted By: Milliardo

Re: Protestants Convert More Eastern Catholics - 05/07/05 10:27 PM

Quote
Originally posted by nicholas:
Same old errors. I wonder if many 'evangelical' groups aren't really arians in new clothes? Usually they have some old heresy hidden secretly in the evangelical zeal.
I am not sure if some of these are Evangelical; however, in general Protestantism seems to have only recycled the old heresies. One point is Arianism, which can be found in such groups as Unitarians and Oneness Pentecostals. There seems to be an element of Gnosticism as well--the rejection of the Church Fathers, in general, is a reminder of it.
Posted By: tobit

Re: Protestants Convert More Eastern Catholics - 05/08/05 07:55 AM

Another thing is that most evangelicals put catholics of all types on the bullseye for conversion. Since they are easy targets. They don't seem overly agressive at converting Muslims. Perhpas because it is near impossible to convert Muslims bu the Bible alone dialogue they use. SInce catholics already accept the Bible as the Word of God it is far easier to play Bible proof texting and misrepresent the catholic faith. But ask them to dialoge with someone using logica and reason and not the Bible and that can't do it.
Posted By: Irish Melkite

Re: Protestants Convert More Eastern Catholics - 05/09/05 07:22 AM

Quote
Originally posted by Dan Lauffer:
Where did you find out that he's from Erie? The best I could come up with is West Chicago. But if he is from Erie it is absolutely fascinating to me. My last Methodist Church was in a neighboring town of Erie. A new Doctor came to town who was from Assyria. I asked her about her Orthodox background. She said she had converted to Protestantism, but wasn't interested in my Methodist Church.

Fascinating that people from Assyria would wind up in the very rural area of West Central Illinois 150 miles from Chicago. My guess would be that this group is the attraction.
Dan,

This is a link to the churches in Erie ; if you scroll down, you'll find Pastor Badal's. Now, I have to admit that I didn't stop and consider Erie's location vis-a-vis Chicago when I suggested that his focus was on converting Assyrians and Chaldeans in the Chicagoland area, rather than in their homelands.

I notice that there is an Assyrian Evangelical Covenant Church in Chicago - on North Washtenaw. The site doesn't provide any info on the clergy serving it, but it does have a link to the Aramaic Bible Translation project that Ray referenced. (Notably, the ABT site makes no reference to Pastor Badal either, being generally sparse on names, other than those of a few translators.)

I can't find that Erie itself or Whiteside County has any significant immigrant population of any sort, let alone Assyro-Chaldean. So, I suspect that whatever evangelization Badal may be undertaking in Illinois is in Chicago itself, where virtually all the Assyrian and Chaldean Churches in the state are situated.

It is worth noting that Protestant evangelization among the Assyro-Chaldeans is not entirely new. The AOG and several Evangelical churches have been active in Iraq for a decade and a half now; what success they've had gets mixed reports. Their work though has been more directed at the Muslim population than the Catholics and Orthodox and they suffered rather
significantly in terms of arrests, murders of clergy, etc., for their efforts. The Anglicans have a much longer history there and their focus historically was aimed at the Assyrians; they've also contributed significantly to the body of Assyrian Church history and liturgical texts in English through translations that were undertaken on behalf of the British Bible Society.

There was one Protestant - former Chaldean or Assyrian - who was very active in evangelizing within those communities for some time. I can't recollect his name and a search didn't turn up anything on him, although he was garnering a fair amount of web publicity as recently as a year ago; much of his work was being done in the homelands of these Churches. Whether that individual was Badal, I can't remember.

Many years,

Neil
Posted By: byzantina

Re: Protestants Convert More Eastern Catholics - 05/11/05 02:05 PM

I pretty much agree with Nicholas point of view. We can respect people but is it charitable to not point their errors in faith? I believe this false ecumenism.

A Sister In Christ
Posted By: Carson Daniel

Re: Protestants Convert More Eastern Catholics - 05/11/05 03:37 PM

Neil,

That's an excellent piece of research. Thank you. I suspect my assumptions about the Doctor in neighboring Prophetstown and her Evangelical Association and how she got there are correct.

Dan L
Posted By: Gaudior

Re: Protestants Convert More Eastern Catholics - 05/11/05 04:49 PM

I have to wonder why they have any success rate worthy of note? Is it because the Eastern Catholics seldom grow up with an EASTERN Catholic primary and secondary education the way that many Latin Catholics have, so that their faith hasn't be drummed into them as constantly? (Let's also face it, many of you describe very long drives to church, so it would seem probable that many families with children are not as completely immersed in the Church, and generally have encountered mainly the Divine Liturgy)

Is it because having so much difference between the Eastern rite and the Latin rite that they may see as Easterners in a Latin school or parish has taught them that the WAY we worship makes no difference? Thus leaving them open to Protestants saying that the WAY we worship is irrelevant, we just need to Take Jesus As Our Personal Saviour??

Is it because we just ASSUME that our children can understand the theology and traditions of the Church? Most Protestants teach their children to impressively quote chapter and verse of the Bible. Most Eastern Christians do not do this, so that when someone comes along with "proof" of what they are saying, we don't know the answers in a pat way, nor have we ever heard the question before, and have no idea HOW to find it.

Is it because we are called to constantly struggle, and the idea of several Protestant groups that all you need to do is Say Yes To Jesus And Be SAVED appeals to those who know that Eastern Christians fast, say, but their Latin brethren don't, for the most part, but they are part of the Catholic Church, so WHY do EC's have to do all this, it makes no sense...and lo and behold, someone comes round and says "Be born again, then you can go off and have a snorking good time and forget all that WORK" So, they believe, and follow...

With immigrants, they may want to assimilate themselves into secular society...

I think that with the proper education, and FULLY sacramental life, an Eastern Christian can be proof against false teachings of protestants. But, that teaching must start in the home, and in a 100% positive manner, from approximately the age of reason (say, two years old)

Gaudior, suggesting the development of EC outreach and educational materials.
Posted By: JonnNightwatcher

Re: Protestants Convert More Eastern Catholics - 05/11/05 05:11 PM

to all those who are whining about the Evangelical Protestants:
so, the EPs (Evangelical Protestants) are targeting Catholics of all stripes for conversion, whose fault is that?
Those who call the EPs "Arians" do not know what they are talking about, such an accusation is total rubbish and does not deserve anything more than my contempt and disrespect for such "opinions", and I will not retract what I just said until Hell freezes over, so I suggest that you accept it.If any of you want to reply condeming this, BRING IT ON! An Arian is one (like a Jehovah's Witness or an old time Unitarian) is one who denies that Jesus is God, but holds Him to be a bit lower than God, a created Being, albeit the first of God's creation. it is reminiscent of the old hero figure of Aryan mythology who endowed with supernatural powers, fight the battles of the deity against the forces of Evil.As a graduate of an EP seminary, I can assure you that the Christology taught there is exactly what is held by Holy Mother Church. Alas, the typical Catholic believes that the "holy trinity" consists of beer, ball games,and bingo,so I cannot expect him or her to know any better when any of them make chimp noises about something they know nothing about.To accuse EPs of a Christological heresy is a slap in the face of Berean, a Baptist who has been known to frequest this Forum, and whose education in the area of Christology I can vouch for, as we both sat at the feet of some of the same profs. It is also a slap in the face of EPs I know, including one gentleman whose funeral I attended this past Monday at First Presbyterian Church in Chattanooga. The gentleman was a ruling elder, sat on the boards of many a Christian ministry, and dedicated his life to the sharing of Jesus Christ, his God and Saviour (and mine as well)with others. it is a slap in the face of such fine men of God as Billy Graham, and of Ben Haden, who has been like a father to me for over thirty years, and was responsible for paying my way through seminary. Both of these men few of you could even pack either of their lunches.How dare you accuse EPs of not holding that Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour is God .
To the one who made the statement of a world wide conspiracy, ad ridiculum,I should hope that what he said was a poor attempt at sarcastic humor.If not, it betrays the kind of 'thinking' indulged in by John Birch types who think there is a conspiracy in every cupboard and whose religiousity is manifested in either Mormonism or of a Catholicism that sees the second Vatican Council as heresy and the Mass in the vernacular as invalid because God doesn't understand English. It is a shame that evolution is a false theory, because such types need to evolve from their intellectual pithecanthropoid state.But again I hope the first impression that I had of that poster is the correct one, I like to give the benefit of a doubt.
The impression that more than a few EPs have of Catholics are beer swilling ignoramuses who fwan at the hand of the parish priest, licking said hand as does a dog,never thinking for himself. The Bible is a Protestant book that if a catholic sees such a horror, he starts genuflecting up and down like a monkey saying "no can reada the Bible, only priest can reada the Bible" whil frantically crossing himself, thinking that a ton of Hail Marys, etc. just make get him into Heaven, especially if he gives lots of money to the Church.
Pope LeoXlll issued an encyclical in the 1890's, not only permitting the Catholic laity to read the Bible, but encouraging reading as well. As far as an Aramaic translation of Scripure is concerned: good. Jesus spoke Aramaic notLatin. parts of the OT are in Aramaic (see parts of Daniel and of Ezra).
The Jesus film is an excellent film, a copy of which was presented to me by an Episcopalian lady, and I don't see the problem of any one, Catholic orwhatever, viewing the movie.
Learn about your faith, from an intelligent adult perspective, read the Bible, read Theology, but forHeaven's sake, don't hit the EPs or anyone else for that matter until you know what you are talking about.
Oh, at the Presbyterian elder's funeral, there wasn't a dry eye, or any of the histrionics you normally see at a funeral? why? the were not glad he was dead, we all loved him, and he was suffering in the last couple of years before he went on at the age of 92, but that wasn't it. we all knew he had gone to finally see Jesus faceto Face, he had that hope in his Saviour, and we rejoiced with my old friend T. Hooke McCallie, can you say the same?
Much Love,
Jonn
Posted By: byzanTN

Re: Protestants Convert More Eastern Catholics - 05/11/05 06:30 PM

Quote
Alas, the typical Catholic believes that the "holy trinity" consists of beer, ball games,and bingo,so I cannot expect him or her to know any better when any of them make chimp noises about something they know nothing about.
No, no, no! The modern day Trinity is "Me, Myself, and I." Haven't you been listening to the words in contemporary RC music? biggrin wink
Posted By: Zenovia

Re: Protestants Convert More Eastern Catholics - 05/11/05 08:18 PM

Dear JohnNightwatcher,

I agree with you. What a slap in the face to all those Protestant ministers, their families and wives that went into uncivilized lands to evangelize. I think of the one recently in India that was burned in his car with his son for doing just that.

I also recall the wife of a Lutheran (I believe) minister from Canada that remained in India after her husband died. She continued to operate the hospital they opened and when Mother Theresa couldn't feed the 20,000 people living in a garbage dump, she asked her to take it over.

These are just a few of the thousands upon thousands of similar cases. Let's not generalize and condemn the saintly with the ignorant.

Zenovia
Posted By: JonnNightwatcher

Re: Protestants Convert More Eastern Catholics - 05/12/05 01:29 PM

Quote
Originally posted by byzanTN:
Quote
Alas, the typical Catholic believes that the "holy trinity" consists of beer, ball games,and bingo,so I cannot expect him or her to know any better when any of them make chimp noises about something they know nothing about.
No, no, no! The modern day Trinity is "Me, Myself, and I." Haven't you been listening to the words in contemporary RC music? biggrin wink
oops, my oversight.self centered music is also true. never listen to music at Mass,hum Gershwin to myself. give me the old timy Slavonic chants anyday.
Posted By: Wolfgang

Re: Protestants Convert More Eastern Catholics - 05/12/05 02:48 PM

Hi John,
I enjoyed reading your diatribe wink . I was wondering if you were raised Protestant? Wolfgang
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic

Re: Protestants Convert More Eastern Catholics - 05/12/05 03:25 PM

Dear Friends,

The matter of "Arianism" is a very interesting one!

Cardinal Newman once likened the Protestants of his day to Socinians, Arians, Nestorians etc. even though those same Protestants would have strenuously denied the charge.

And I think we need to be careful about comparing today's Jehovah's Witnesses et al. to the Arians of old.

There were all kinds of Arians, including Semi-Arians who, like Wulfilas, affirmed that Jesus was indeed a "a great God" but not equal to the Father.

And ALL Arians actually worshipped Christ - something today's Witnesses et al. do not do (and Witnesses believe that Christ was once St Michael the Archangel).

In fact, when the Arian heresy was put down, a number of Arian saints continued to be honoured in the Catholic and Orthodox calendars - and so continue to this day.

In fact, until the Bollandists expunged his name, Arius himself was honoured in the Catholic Calendar of Saints under June 6 as "Saint Artotis"
and this throughout the Middle Ages.

This was put in deliberately by an Arianizing scribe at some point and it wasn't until the Bollandists discovered who this "Artotis" was and how he came to get into the calendar that his name was removed . . .

Also, St Artemius the Dux Augustalis of Egypt was most certainly an Arian. He was in Egypt destroying both pagan AND Christian temples - until he was killed by a pagan.

Arian martyrs who died for Christ tended to be accepted by the Church that overlooked the defect of their orthodoxy (See Fr. Holweck, The Dictionary of Saints who refers to St Sabas and St Nicetas the Goths as Arian priest ordained by the Arian bishop Wulfilas).

Alex
Posted By: doulos

Re: Protestants Convert More Eastern Catholics - 05/12/05 11:23 PM

I have been lurking and getting to know all of you for quite awhile. I am an Evangelical Protestant who finds much in common with the members of this forum. I found my way here because I am researching the Eastern Catholic church. My daughter is drawn to the Eastern church and we have been to Divine Liturgy(as well as Vespers and Matins)a number of times. Although she is Orthodox, Frederica Mathewes-Green has been my guide to understanding the deep love for Christ that is present in the East; her books and articles have made sense for me of much that seemed very foreign and off-putting at first. Well, this is a longer introduction than I intended(and there's even more to the story, but I'll save that for another time.) I just wanted to add that I found it ironic that Evangelicals should be accused of being proponents of the one world system, as that is the old fundamentalist bromide that has been thrown at Catholics for many years. Just my 2 cents!
Respectfully,
Michele
Posted By: byzanTN

Re: Protestants Convert More Eastern Catholics - 05/13/05 02:11 AM

Quote
Originally posted by doulos:
I have been lurking and getting to know all of you for quite awhile. I am an Evangelical Protestant who finds much in common with the members of this forum. I found my way here because I am researching the Eastern Catholic church. My daughter is drawn to the Eastern church and we have been to Divine Liturgy(as well as Vespers and Matins)a number of times. Although she is Orthodox, Frederica Mathewes-Green has been my guide to understanding the deep love for Christ that is present in the East; her books and articles have made sense for me of much that seemed very foreign and off-putting at first. Well, this is a longer introduction than I intended(and there's even more to the story, but I'll save that for another time.) I just wanted to add that I found it ironic that Evangelicals should be accused of being proponents of the one world system, as that is the old fundamentalist bromide that has been thrown at Catholics for many years. Just my 2 cents!
Respectfully,
Michele
I would have to agree with you about the one world system. The Protestant groups don't agree with each other enough to form a one world organization. I kind of think such would be anathema to them in the first place, given that some are suspicious of church/state relationships to begin with.
Posted By: JonnNightwatcher

Re: Protestants Convert More Eastern Catholics - 05/13/05 02:10 PM

Quote
Originally posted by doulos:
I have been lurking and getting to know all of you for quite awhile. I am an Evangelical Protestant who finds much in common with the members of this forum. I found my way here because I am researching the Eastern Catholic church. My daughter is drawn to the Eastern church and we have been to Divine Liturgy(as well as Vespers and Matins)a number of times. Although she is Orthodox, Frederica Mathewes-Green has been my guide to understanding the deep love for Christ that is present in the East; her books and articles have made sense for me of much that seemed very foreign and off-putting at first. Well, this is a longer introduction than I intended(and there's even more to the story, but I'll save that for another time.) I just wanted to add that I found it ironic that Evangelicals should be accused of being proponents of the one world system, as that is the old fundamentalist bromide that has been thrown at Catholics for many years. Just my 2 cents!
Respectfully,
Michele
you would be amazed that Evangelical Protestants (EP) and Eastern Christians have a lot in common.one of the biggies is the idea of transformation. I have heard many a EP sermon dealing with the idea of transformation.EP ministers preach Romans 12 with the idea that we need to be transformed, an EC (Eastern Christian, whether Orthodox or Catholic is immaterial)believes in the idea of Theosis, that is, deification of the believer, to become like Christ, which is our end. In both cases, it is the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives as we respond to the Uncreated Energy, that is the Grace of God in our lives. I ignore Latin Catholicism as it is not where I am at, so don't ask me what they teach on this matter, to be perfectly frank, I don't care beyond an intellectual level. anyways, there is the phenomenon of EPs converting to Orthodoxy or Eastern Catholicism, because I feel that on a subconscious level at least, the EP is finding affinity with the idea of Theosis as resonates with the idea of transformation in the life of the believer. there is also the idea of historical continuity and authority that would attract the EP who is searching. we of the EC community have that historical continuity and authority as we hold to a literal line reaching back to the Apostles, and from them to our Lord Jesus Christ. Mainline Protestants,turn to Latin Catholicism for the idea of historical continuity and authority (there used to be a riddle that went: why do Mainline Protestants have a weather vane on top of their church steeples? because they want everyone to know that they follow every wind of doctrine). But Protestantism , whether it be anywhere from Fundamentalist to Liberal, has this in common: the idea that Man and God meet person to Person, not collectively, but on on individual basis, a quite existential concept, but it is what I conclude.
On the idea of worship: EPs are in the process of truning their services into worship services, as a number of articles in Christianity Today attest. Gone are the days when a pile of songs and a forty five minute sermon ending with the choir singing the same verse over and over until everyone runs up to the front of the church and get save all over again will do.EPs are searching for the mystery of worship, and as are thoughtful Latins (who can't seem to find it in the Masses that have dumped their ancient worship for Puff the Magic Dragon). While the Episcopals, the High Church, at least, have beautiful and reverent Masses, that communion, at least here in the States, has problems with Liberalism in the areas of Theology and in moral teaching, and an EP will not go for that mess, thus here we are boys and girls, in the EC community (ain't that convenient?), and we got something to offer.
Much Love,
Jonn
Posted By: JonnNightwatcher

Re: Protestants Convert More Eastern Catholics - 05/13/05 02:19 PM

Quote
Originally posted by Wolfgang:
Hi John,
I enjoyed reading your diatribe wink . I was wondering if you were raised Protestant? Wolfgang
my mother's family is Protestant, from the time of the Dutch settlers in New Amsterdam (New York), to the preaching of the disciples of David Brainerd amongst the Shinnecock Natives, to my maternal grandmother's Prussian Lutheran ancestors who settled around New Orleans before the War Betwixt the Yankees and the Americans (Granny Clampett's view). my father's family are Catholics. I was baptized in a Passionist monastery as a babe, but raised myself as far as religion is concerned. I was a member of the Mormon church for a good part of my youth, but returned to my Catholic roots and have been an Eastern Catholic for all of that time.Oh, I was came to Jesus in a Presbyterian church when I was nine. ?s answered?
Much Love,
Jonn
Posted By: stojgniev

Re: Protestants Convert More Eastern Catholics - 05/13/05 02:34 PM

I was raised in the American Bible Belt in a place where it was taken for granted that everyone attended a Baptist church. The Ku Klux Klan was very influential in the town where both my parents were born. The Ku Kluxers beat, tarred & feathred those that didn't agree with them & their "preacher" often talked about the evils of "papism." There is still a lot of anti-Catholicism and anti-Apostolic Faith feeling out there among those people, but it is just recently, with the passing of John Paul II, that I have come to realize that there are a lot of sincere Evangelical Protestants searching for the truth. And things have really changed in America during the past 50 years. Mel Gibson & John Paul II had a huge influence on what EPs think about our faith (& on what their preachers preach in church).

We Eastern Christians should recognize the thirst that EPS have for the Apostolic Faith. We should reach out to them, invite them to our churches & explain what it is they might experience in our liturgy and the Eucharist.

Stojgniev
Posted By: Zenovia

Re: Protestants Convert More Eastern Catholics - 05/13/05 04:03 PM

Dear Stojgniev,

I was raised in an era when Baptists believed Catholics were bound for hell and visa versa. I, as an Orthodox, was told that if an Orthodox Church did not exist in an area, then I should attend a Protestant one since Catholics will do their utmost to convert me.

Things have changed since Vatican II. We have to thank Pope John XXIII and especially John Paul II for that. We have to also thank true Evangelical Christians such as Billy Graham as well as Pat Robertson and his influential 700 club.

I recall the story of how Billy Graham became well known to the American people. At the beginning he was merely another Baptist tent style preacher. What he refused to do though, no matter how much pressure he was under, was tell people that they must become 'Baptist' in order to be 'saved'.

When he decided to have a tent revival meeting in Los Angelos in the 1950's, the story goes that a woman who prayed for the successes of those meetings, was inspired to call William Randolph Hearst.

Now we must realize that Hearst lived in quite a large mansion so it was basically impossible for him to answer the phone, yet he actually picked up the phone and was convinced to 'push' Billy Graham, (or whatever the word is in the newspaper industry). Graham was written up in all the papers and the tent revival went on and on for quite some time. The rest is history.

Zenovia
Posted By: stojgniev

Re: Protestants Convert More Eastern Catholics - 05/15/05 02:02 AM

Dear Zenovia,

Thanks for your response. In reply, I don't want to be mean-spirited, especially at this moment in history when I feel the Holy Spirit is encouraging dialogue among all Christians.

I recently watched Pat Robertson's inspiring tribute to John Paul II on his program. Slava Isusu Christu! I am grateful to all those Protestant evangelists who have commemorated the passing of John Paul II. Pan Bog zaplac! as is said in Poland.

I am convinced that Billy Graham is a man inspired by God. I am happy that he has led so many people to Christ, but I must say that I am intimidated by the cultural aspects of his religion.

Every human religion and belief has both a spiritual and a cultural/ethnographic aspect. That's very obvious in the various Orthodox Churches, for example. Estonian Orthodoxy is hardly Serbian Orthodoxy.

Raised in the Bible Belt, I can't help but feel a certain apprehension at all the cultural trappings of American fundamentalistism, whether it be the work of Billy Graham or Jimmy Swaggart. I have observed several of Billy Graham's crusades on TV & the message is certainly sincere, but I can't help but regret that his message is surrounded by all the trappings of Low Church American Protestantism. And I wince, observing that culture projected into Europe, Latin America & all the corners of the world as if it were some universal norm. It is enormous ethnocentrism to think that Filipinos, for example, should be inspired by the melody & English lyrics of "Amazing Grace." "That Old Rugged Cross", southern Anglo gospel quartets & steel guitars have absolutely nothing to do with religion, from my own personal perspective, though it is precisely those cultural attributes that make many Anglo-Americans break into tears and "accept the altar call." It is a shallow, ethnocentric emotionalism. When I consider the limitations of American Protestantism, I am grateful for the universality of Apostolic Christianity!!!

I mentioned the Ku Kluxers who were active in the town where my parents were born. Their designated "preacher" publicly wore a jewel encrusted burning cross & his favorite topic was "the evils of papism." Those folks also loved gospel quartets & steel guitars. I have over the years developed some aversion to all the cultural characteristics of Low Church American Protestantism.

I know that Bily Graham has preached from the pulpit of some Orthodox churches in Russia. Can we hope someday that he might accept or at least acknowledge some liturgical aspect of Apostolic Christianity? In preaching to those millions, he never got too far from the cultural roots of Anglo-American North Carolina.

Z Bogiem,

Stojgniev
Posted By: Zenovia

Re: Protestants Convert More Eastern Catholics - 05/15/05 02:49 AM

Dear Stojgniev,

Don't believe for one second that everyone will give up their culture in order to become an American Evangelical although a few might. Besides, not all Evangelicals are fundamentalists. These people though are doing, and sacrificing whatever they can to evangelize the world in the only way they know how. Of course they don't understand that everyone will not cry when they hear Amazing Grace. They can't even understand how we can pray to Mary and the saints. After all it was not part of their nurturing.

But just think, wouldn't it be wonderful if all the Christian faiths could unite, and each one could give whatever 'gifts' were given to them, (such as organizational, spiritual, etc.) for the glory of God and His Church. You know it's not impossible. The Evangelicals can become 'movements' within the Church.

Zenovia
Posted By: Zenovia

Re: Protestants Convert More Eastern Catholics - 05/15/05 03:06 AM

Dear Stojgniev,

I recall Father Groechel saying, (certainly a future Catholic saint) that he only wished that the ladies in his Church could be as saintly as those he knew in the community he lived in.

Now Father Groechel worked in the S. Bronx (taking care of unwedded mothers) and lived among the black Evangelicals. He also praised the generosity of the Jewish business men he knew.

Zenovia
Posted By: stojgniev

Re: Protestants Convert More Eastern Catholics - 05/15/05 03:09 AM

Dear Zenovia,

It has become ever more clear to me after the passing of John Paul II that all Christians have a contribution to make to the universal Church. With Christians of the Apostolic Faith, that contribution is in the realm of spirituality and appreciation of the Eucharist and Sacraments. With many Protestants, their contribution is with knowledge of Scripture.
If united, what we could do to change the world!!! As the Russians say, Daj Bog! Lord grant it!

But a major problem, as I see it, is the hopeless ethnocentrism of Low Church American Fundamentalism. Their "commission" throughout the world presupposes that Low Church Anglo-American Fundamentalism is some univeral norm. While the Apostolic liturgy is universal (even in its local varieties), "That Old Rugged Cross" is not universal.

Z Bogiem,

Stojgniev
Posted By: IrishJohan

Re: Protestants Convert More Eastern Catholics - 05/15/05 01:07 PM

I'm curious as to what this ABt project is really all about. It's not like there hasn't been an Aramaic translation of the Scriptures for centuries. Just pick up a copy of the Peshitta . Is it that there isn't a Protestant version, with the text and notes skewed to their p.o.v.? As for 'evangelizing' Latin Catholics, Eastern Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and NonChalcedonian Orthodox, I have BIG problems with this. We may squabble with one another, but our arguments are family fights. Protestantism is an outsider IMO, seeking to undermine the apostolic faith.
Posted By: Zenovia

Re: Protestants Convert More Eastern Catholics - 05/15/05 05:11 PM

"As for 'evangelizing' Latin Catholics, Eastern Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, and NonChalcedonian Orthodox, I have BIG problems with this."

--------------------------------------------------------------

Actually 'evangelizing' Europe would not be a bad idea. It is very 'Pagan'.

Now try to look at these 'preachers' as a growth product. They are starting people off into a life of Christ. People that 'never' have known Christ...even though some might have been baptized.

Now don't believe that I'm in favor of many of them. I recall watching the Pentacostal Swaggart jumping all over the TV screen and wondering how these people could say they love God and yet do nothing but bash the RCC. Well we know what happened to Swaggart, but years later I found out that they were doing something called 'sheparding'. It was a form of control of one person watching over another, and Pat Robertson said on his program that he kept warning them that it was 'heresy'. Well after that, they kind of fell apart.

I also dislike Benny Hinn, although having gone to school in the South many years ago, I can understand young people running to hear him preach. Now that is much better than having them run to these horrific Rock Bands with their 'satanic' music. So in that sense, I'm not too much against him, nor am I against the 'Rock' Christian music. Actually, I would have loved to see the teenagers in my family going to their concerts rather than the one's they did go to.

I am truly fond of people like Billy Graham and Pat Robertson that will Evangelize but not prosletyze. The point is though that the Evangelicals do manage to reach people. If they could accept the basic tenets and beliefs of out faith, they could become a very active 'movement' within it.

Zenovia
Posted By: IrishJohan

Re: Protestants Convert More Eastern Catholics - 05/16/05 12:41 AM

Quote
Actually 'evangelizing' Europe would not be a bad idea. It is very 'Pagan'.
Good point. The United States I think needs some good evangelizing or at least catechesis as well. I have in mind some of the anti-Catholic and anti-Orthodox apologists, whom I personally see as enemies of Christ. I don't have a problem discussing our differences, but I really tire of the endless nonsense about the Blessed Theotokos, the Communion of Saints, the Mass/Divine Liturgy, ikons/images, etc. Look, we have our own differences but at least we respect the Seven Great Ecumenical Councils. With many Protestants it seems we have to re-hash ad nauseam the ridiculous nonsense settled centuries ago. That's the problem I have with Protestantism.

Pax Christi,
John
Just Your Average Catholic Guy
Posted By: Irish Melkite

Re: Protestants Convert More Eastern Catholics - 06/14/05 06:31 AM

Quote
Originally posted by stojgniev:
I know that Bily Graham has preached from the pulpit of some Orthodox churches in Russia. Can we hope someday that he might accept or at least acknowledge some liturgical aspect of Apostolic Christianity? In preaching to those millions, he never got too far from the cultural roots of Anglo-American North Carolina.
Stojgniev,

I was searching for something and came across this thread; I remember reading the first couple of pages, but think I missed this final one. Just wanted to revive it long enough to say a few things about Billy Graham.

Forty years ago, he was scheduled to speak at Boston College. In my (then) young Catholic mind, an invitation to a fundamentalist preacher by a Jesuit college was tantamount to heresy but, out of curiousity, I went. To my surprise, he was introduced by a familiar voice, one most likened to the rubbing of gravel across a washboard, the late beloved Richard Cardinal Cushing, of blessed memory. In the years before or since, I have never heard a more powerful speaker.

Billy Graham is one of those whom you all too rarely encounter in this life, a genuinely good person, personable, of sound moral convictions, with definite qualities of holiness, who believes in God as he understands Him, seeks to bring others to or back to Him, and has been given unique skills and talents to do so (if you have ever heard him preach, you cannot help but know what I mean). Is he divinely ordained or inspired to do what he does? I think it would be very hard to believe that he is not an instrument of God, working in His Own mysterious ways.

This is a man who does not judge others and counts persons from all faiths, of all political leanings, of all stations in life, among his friends. Bishop Sheen and Cardinal Cushing, both of blessed memory, very unlike men, called him "friend". Hierarchy across the spectrum, liberal to conservative, meet with him, speak of him with admiration and affection, and cooperate with his crusades.

Perhaps one of the least known facts on the part of laity is that Graham does not proselytize among Catholics or other churched persons. Let me explain what I mean when I say that he doesn't proselytize churched persons. At evangelical crusades, persons who "decide", "seek to be saved", "make a commitment" are asked to complete so-called "decision cards". These are then forwarded by crusade staff to a church near the person's home - inevitably one of the same theological bent as the preaching evangelist. Graham's staff assures that decision cards made out by Catholics are forwarded to local Catholic churches (the same is true for all churched persons; unless they ask otherwise, they are referred to a church/synagogue of their own denomination).

An official of the Pontifical Bible Institute, speaking of Graham's crusades, said:

Quote
The Catholic will hear no slighting of his Church’s teaching authority, nor of Papal or Episcopal Prerogatives, no word against the Mass or sacraments or Catholic practices. Graham has no time for that ... The Catholic, in my opinion, will hear little, if anything, with which he cannot agree
For a discussion of Graham's ecumenical spirit, focusing especially on his relationship with Catholics, and written from the standpoint of fundamentalists (who despise the fact that, nominally, Graham is one of them), see: Billy Graham & Rome .

Some quotes from Dr. Graham:

Quote
My goal, I always made clear, was not to preach against Catholic beliefs or to proselytize people who were already committed to Christ within the Catholic Church. Rather, it was to proclaim the Gospel to all those who had never truly committed their lives to Christ.
Quote
When she (Mother Teresa) walked into the room to greet me, I felt that I was, indeed, meeting a saint.
Quote
Mother Teresa is a heroic individual on whom the youth of America and the world could well model.
Quote
Pope John Paul II has emerged as the greatest religious leader of the modern world, and one of the greatest moral and spiritual leaders of this century.
Quote
No other man in the world today could attract as much attention on moral and spiritual subjects as John Paul. He is articulating what Catholic and Protestant churches have traditionally held, the moral values from the Ten Commandments and the Sermon on the Mount. The country is responding in a magnificent way. It shows there’s a great spiritual hunger. The Pope has reached millions of Protestants. The organized ecumenical movement seems to be on the back burner and ecumenicity is now taking place where Roman Catholics and Protestants share beliefs in matters like the Virgin Birth and the Resurrection of Christ.
Quote
I’ve found that my beliefs are essentially the same as those of orthodox Roman Catholics, for instance. They believe in the Virgin Birth, and so do I. They believe in the Resurrection of Jesus and the coming judgment of God, and so do I. We only differ on some matters of later church tradition.
Quote
I think that Protestants, in reaction to the Catholic position, have made far too little of Mary. Mary was the most remarkable and most blessed of all women.
Quote
While I am not worthy to touch the shoe laces of St. Francis, yet this same Christ that called Francis in the 13th century also called me to be one of His servants in the 20th century.
Quote
If Catholics step forward there will be no attempt to convert them and their names will be given to the Catholic church nearest their homes.
While Southern Baptists are heavily into proselytizing and Billy Graham is a Southern Baptist, it doesn't follow that Graham proselytizes. I think it's reasonable to believe that the incredibly diverse range of Catholic hierarchs, American and otherwise, who (at Graham's request) have sent priests, religious, and laypersons to his Crusades over the past several decades (to provide immediate ministry contact to Catholics) are an excellent barometer of the experience and comfort level of the Church with Graham's techniques.

There are relatively few persons in the past century who can be cited as having been personally responsible for causing more people to reach out to/for Christ than Billy Graham. And, almost invariably, any person who takes Christ into their life is the better for it; if they do so as a Catholic or an Orthodox, that's wonderful - if they do it in another Christian community, it's likely still better for their immortal soul than remaining unchurched.

IMHO, Billy Graham's ministry is not without God's favor. I wish he was a Catholic but he isn't. If Catholicism had a site akin to Yad Vashim and a concept akin to that of a "Righteous Gentile" - (to paraphrase words that have accrued an aura of sanctity through their use by our Jewish brothers and sisters - and, by using them, I neither intend to offend nor to diminish the context of their familiar use) - Billy Graham would be properly termed a "Righteous Protestant".

May God grant him many years,

Neil, an unabashed admirer of Rev. Dr. Graham for these 40 years since
Posted By: harmon3110

Re: Protestants Convert More Eastern Catholics - 06/14/05 11:51 AM

Quote
Originally posted by Milliardo:
Quote
Originally posted by nicholas:
[b] Same old errors. I wonder if many 'evangelical' groups aren't really arians in new clothes? Usually they have some old heresy hidden secretly in the evangelical zeal.
I am not sure if some of these are Evangelical; however, in general Protestantism seems to have only recycled the old heresies. One point is Arianism, which can be found in such groups as Unitarians and Oneness Pentecostals. There seems to be an element of Gnosticism as well--the rejection of the Church Fathers, in general, is a reminder of it. [/b]
I'm not so sure about this. I have met plenty of Protestants who believe that Jesus is fully human (in all ways except sin) and fully divine: the Son of Man and the Son of God.

I spent years away from the Church. When I came back, it was the Christ-like example of people close to me that made me become open again to the Gospel.

And, I suspect that is why so many Protestants --Evangelicals and Pentecostals especially-- are so successful at making converts. Many of them truly know Jesus Christ, and they truly love Him, and they truly try to fulfill His loving command to spread His Gospel.

Yes, there are some fanatics. But it is not fanaticism alone or even mostly that explains the huge success of EP and PP these days.

This is my own theory, but I'll share it. I think that the there are three parts to the Gospel. There is the conversion experience: faith in Christ, confession of sins to Him, being forgiven by Him, and keeping His commandments. There is then purification: rooting out vices, acquiring the virtues. Another way to put it is this: in stage 2, we harmonize our basic drives from selfishness (vices) through selflessness (virtues) toward living the beatitudes. The third stage is when we actually are filled with the selfless Love of Christ. We grow in it and want to share it with others. And, all of this together (and often simultaneously) is theosis. Put another way, theosis consists of conversion, purification and sanctification. But all of this process of theosis is based on personal knowledge of Jesus Christ and personal openness to the Holy Spirit.

Well, it seems that the Protestants have this same process of theosis because they believe in Jesus and receive the Holy Spirit. However, they work the process of theosis without the sacraments / mysteries and without the Tradition.

If the tools of theosis are in three parts (faith/Bible, sacraments/mysteries, tradition), the Protestants generally don't have the last two sets of tools: sacraments and tradition. Instead, they have only the first set of tools: faith and Bible. Yet, many of the Protestants (especially the Evangelicals and Pentecostals) thrive in the life in Christ and in the Holy Spirit with only that first set of tools of theosis: faith and Bible.

I wonder why.

The only answer I can come up with is this. It can be easy to overlook Christ Himself when there is so much in the sacraments and the Tradition. That might not make any sense theologically or mystically, but it can often be the case on a physical level. In the apostolic Churches, it can be easy to get so caught up in the ritual of sacraments and the points of Tradition (which is then "tradition" with a small "t") that people can overlook or forget Jesus: the Man who is also God. But the Protestants don't have that problem as much because they generally don't have as much of the sacraments and the Tradition. Instead, especially among the Evangelicals and Pentecostals, there seems to be a constant emphasis on immersing themselves in the Holy Spirit so as to encounter and follow and grow to love Jesus Christ. Thus, while the Protestants may often not have much knowledge of sacraments / mysteries and Tradition, they often do know Him: Jesus.

And it is Jesus who makes and keeps Christians.

And hence, those who truly know Jesus tend to gain the most converts to Jesus.

And, sadly for us members of the apostolic Churches, the ones who seem to know Him most immediately and most freshly in most of their people are the Evangelical and Pentecostal Protestants.

In short, I sometimes think that the apostolic Churches need a revival. Not a Protestant revival that would stop after conversion, but a revival that, in turn, would re-educate and re-energize people in the sacraments and Tradition. A revival that would reawaken people to the immense riches that await them in the full process of theosis: faith and Bible, sacraments/mysteries and Tradition.

--John
Posted By: Alice

Re: Protestants Convert More Eastern Catholics - 06/14/05 12:16 PM

Dear John,

I applaud an excellent post with many excellent points. I know all too many Orthodox that seem to have missed step one: real personal knowledge, acceptance and love of the Jesus Christ of the Bible, yet have proceeded to step two and step three...and I sadly say that I just don't know 'if they get it'. One older couple I know, that receives the Eucharist weekly and more often than any other parishioners in my Church, once approached me about a subject their son heard us having at Bible Study about accepting death as Christians, etc. The woman confided to me that she was shocked at alot of what was overheard because she and no one else in her family understood death and that they were really fearful of it. She even wondered about reincarnation! I almost didn't know where to start...

A cradle Orthodox priest I once met told me that his calling to the Orthodox priesthood started ONLY because of the influence of faith in Christ that his Evangelical roommate in college had.

My own husband grew up in a very adherent Orthodox household, and he really enjoyed Church and the rubrics and the fasts, yet when I met him (he was still in college) he really had very little true faith and understanding of Christ. It was only because of a bum on the NYC subways that gave him the then popular version of the NT called 'Good News for Modern Man' and my urging for him to read it that his faith started to blossom.

The stories I know of faithful Orthodox who have been influenced by Evangelical Protestants can go on and on....

That is why we need some basic 'Christianity 101' classes in our churches...I understand that the Roman Catholic church has actually started something like this. I heard it on EWTN 'Book Mark' one day, so I don't know how widespread it is.

In Christ,
Alice
Posted By: JonnNightwatcher

Re: Protestants Convert More Eastern Catholics - 06/14/05 01:35 PM

I have said this once before, and I will say it again: that the Evangelical Protestants and the Eastern Catholics/Orthodox are much closer to each other than one can imagine. both believe in a personal transformation due the work of the Holy Spirit based on a personal faith in Christ. I feel that both groups can have a meaningful dialogue and sharing that has yet to be fully explored.I will not discuss here the idea of Grace, created or uncreated, but I will say that while we in the East have the idea of the Church as being a divine and human institution, and not as a Nestorian (to use Lossky's idea in his Mystical Theolgy of the Eastern Church) manisfestation, we are moving closer. I think that it is wonderful that someone received a Good News for Modern Man NT from a "bum" on the subway, and that a priest really started to discern his call due to his Evangelical roommate, but let's return the blessing to our Evangelical Protestant friends.
Much Love,
Jonn
Posted By: iconophile

Re: Protestants Convert More Eastern Catholics - 06/14/05 03:56 PM

Jonn is right; modern Protestants under the influence of John Wesley long ago left Calvinism and Lutheranism's denial of free will and sanctification. The Wesleyan movement embraced a much more Catholic approach that emphasized personal transformation. Where they went off is in emphasizing the emotional dimension of this experience, and among Holiness believers, in claiming that one can achieve perfection in this life, usually involving a second emotional experience. Still all in all much closer to Catholic and Orthodox beliefs than classical Reformed belief.
If they are successful in converting our people perhaps it is because they manifest the fruits of conversion more than we do...
-Daniel
Posted By: harmon3110

Re: Protestants Convert More Eastern Catholics - 06/14/05 04:01 PM

Quote
Originally posted by JonnNightwatcher:
I think that it is wonderful that someone received a Good News for Modern Man NT from a "bum" on the subway, and that a priest really started to discern his call due to his Evangelical roommate, but let's return the blessing to our Evangelical Protestant friends.
Much Love, Jonn
John,

Good idea. Now, here is hopefully a good question: How can we give what so many of us do not have?

I don't dispute the fuller presentation of the Gospel that is possible in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.

Instead, I suggest that many people in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches haven't really *begun* living the Gospel, on the level of the heart, because they have not yet met He who is Gospel, Jesus Christ, in their hearts and in their lives.

--John
Posted By: Father Anthony

Re: Protestants Convert More Eastern Catholics - 06/14/05 11:36 PM

Quote


Instead, I suggest that many people in the Catholic and Orthodox Churches haven't really *begun* living the Gospel, on the level of the heart, because they have not yet met He who is Gospel, Jesus Christ, in their hearts and in their lives.

--John
Maybe because of all the distractions of the modern period, we have pushed the whole process of conversion out from our lexicon. How many really study what the faith truly teaches?

I being a convert of 25 years, had to catch up on a lifetime of learning. Many books were studied, but the one that we have to go back to is the one that our faith is based upon, the bible. I know some resent the convert element because they exude with fervor for the faith. Maybe that fervor should be channelled into learning and living the faith, rather than an emotional attachment. How many of our faithful would be dumbstruck, if you were to qoute the scriptures? Many until they got home would be in doubt.

Yet I know that the Cathecism of the Catholic Church, along with many Orthodox Cathecetical materials constantly refer to scripture. That is so we can not only learn it, but hopefully live it. If we do that then we do not have to worry about the Protestants. They will be coming to us for all the right reasons, to live the fullness of the faith.

In other words it is time to get off our rearends, and get out there and do what the Great Commission calls for, and that is to preach the gospel to all nations, including ours.

Forgive me for my ramblings,
Father Anthony+
Posted By: Alice

Re: Protestants Convert More Eastern Catholics - 06/14/05 11:47 PM

The funny thing is that many of us learn the basic and simple 101 from our Evangelical friends but when our Evangelical friends want to grow past that level into more spiritual and liturgical fullness, they come to the more advanced spirituality which only the Church offers.

So we both have something to offer the other! wink

Just some thoughts,
Alice
Posted By: Alice

Re: Protestants Convert More Eastern Catholics - 06/15/05 12:41 AM

Dear Neil,

Thank you for your post about Billy Graham. It was interesting, informative, and incredibly eloquent. I am also a big fan of his, as I do not think that there is any one today who can rival the amount of people that he has made *think* about Christ and put Him into their daily lives, and that has taught the basic tenets of the New Testament relative to our world today, than him.

Surely he was called by Christ for this special purpose. There has never been anything, as you noted, heretical in anything he has ever said.

For the poster that asked if he derived anything from Orthodoxy after preaching in Russia, the answer is 'yes'. The Patriarch told him that everything he preached was on the button, but that he should mention the Resurrection of Christ more. Ever since then, the Rev. Graham has done just that, and has given credit to the Russian Orthodox Patriarch (name escapes me) that suggested he do that! smile

I also think that he is probably one of the most eloquent orators the world has known since perhaps St. Paul! An interesting tidbit is that he has said that he addresses the crowds as if everyone is in the seventh grade!

Interestingly, I just came across this article about him today on MSNBC..written by one of my favorite spiritual t.v. personalities (not that there are so many of them! LOL!)--Rabbi Marc Gelman of the 'God Squad'. He and a Catholic Monsignor, Father Tom, have a talk show here in New York. (Is that SOOO New York--a rabbi and a priest being best friends---or what???? biggrin )

I think that you will like the title: cool

A rabbi explains why Billy Graham is a giant among preachers.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8147174/site/newsweek/
Posted By: doulos

Re: Protestants Convert More Eastern Catholics - 06/15/05 04:30 AM

As an Evangelical Christian who has been reading this forum for many months, reading much about the Eastern church and even experiencing Divine Liturgy on a number of occassions, I have to say that I agree that we are truly not so far apart. Before I encountered Eastern Catholic and Orthodox Christianity I truly believed that nowhere in the Catholic Church was true transformation of the soul by the power of the Holy Spirit taught. Our pastor preaches a principle you might call "exchanged life." The heart of this concept is that we are transformed from the inside out by the Holy Spirit and that we have new life in us because of Christ. We can argue about how this occurs, but if we both recognize that Christ lives in us and calls us to holiness, we are pretty much on the same page, imho.
Blessings
Michele
Posted By: stojgniev

Re: Protestants Convert More Eastern Catholics - 06/15/05 04:52 AM

Michele,

As a Greek Catholic who has experienced the great ignorance and intolerance of fundamentalist Protestants in my youth, I thank you for your input, and may we all grow to love and share in those features of our faith that UNITE us. Since the passing of John Paul II, I have learned after many years that there are non-Catholics who do not indeed hate us.

May Our Lord and God and Saviour Jesus Christ help us all to love another!

stojgniev
Posted By: Irish Melkite

Re: Protestants Convert More Eastern Catholics - 06/15/05 06:17 AM

Quote
Originally posted by alice:
I just came across this article about him today on MSNBC..written by one of my favorite spiritual t.v. personalities (not that there are so many of them! LOL!)--Rabbi Marc Gelman of the 'God Squad'. He and a Catholic Monsignor, Father Tom, have a talk show here in New York. (Is that SOOO New York--a rabbi and a priest being best friends---or what???? biggrin
Alice,

Thanks for the article; it was very interesting. I've heard the "God Squad" radio show on several occasions and have always found it interesting. It puts me in mind of a similar show that ran on Boston radio for many years with a wonderful interfaith panel whose names, unfortunately, now escape me.

Many years,

Neil
Posted By: dwight

Re: Protestants Convert More Eastern Catholics - 06/15/05 08:01 AM

Thanyou Mexican for telling it like it is.
Posted By: harmon3110

Re: Protestants Convert More Eastern Catholics - 06/17/05 01:43 PM

Quote
Originally posted by JonnNightwatcher:
[ . . . ] the Evangelical Protestants and the Eastern Catholics/Orthodox are much closer to each other than one can imagine. both believe in a personal transformation due the work of the Holy Spirit based on a personal faith in Christ.
The more I think on your observation, the more I think it is profound.

--John
Posted By: Diak

Re: Protestants Convert More Eastern Catholics - 06/17/05 01:46 PM

Quote
In other words it is time to get off our rearends, and get out there and do what the Great Commission calls for, and that is to preach the gospel to all nations, including ours.
Father Anthony, bless! May we all take your words to heart - and actually live it out. And start with our own families, neighborhoods, and parishes.
Posted By: Joel Badal

Re: Protestants Convert More Eastern Catholics - 07/18/06 10:32 PM

Dear Ray:

It seems amazing that a man of faith would make very crude remarks about a ministry and person who has committed his life to Jesus Christ. ABT has sought to translate God's word for the Assyrians and Chaldeans so that they clearly read in their own language the true words. Ancient Peshitta vancular is no longer understood by the common man.

By the way, ABT is not supported by Moody Bible Institute. You should check your information before you enter into a conversation. You should also that ABT does not involve itself in world evangelizations. Its mission is to translate God's word and literature such as the Jesus Film.

If you are a Chaldean or Assyrian, then you would understand the value of our projects. Be very careful how you label people.
Posted By: Pavel Ivanovich

Re: Protestants Convert More Eastern Catholics - 07/18/06 11:29 PM

I think we have seen these 'we are translating the bible into various languages so the 'common'(that could have been put better) man sorts before. The only way the Chaldean Church can deal with that sort is to continually warn their people of what the deal is really all about with these Westernised missionaries with their westernised religion (usually heretical).
Posted By: ElijahmariaX

Re: Protestants Convert More Eastern Catholics - 07/18/06 11:42 PM

Quote
Originally posted by alice:
The funny thing is that many of us learn the basic and simple 101 from our Evangelical friends but when our Evangelical friends want to grow past that level into more spiritual and liturgical fullness, they come to the more advanced spirituality which only the Church offers.

So we both have something to offer the other! wink

Just some thoughts,
Alice
I happened to learn my lessons from Scripture in the Catholic Church. wink

I know that's doing it the hard way but by gum there were Catholics who taught me too. Old fogeys! Deaf. Half-blind. But Scripture they knew. Old and New. Whew! Who would have thunk it?

eek

Eli
Posted By: Ray S.

Re: Protestants Convert More Eastern Catholics - 07/19/06 01:13 PM

Joel Badal,

Are you an Evangelical Christian?

Do you not have a mission that converts Chaldean Christians into Evangelicals?\

BTW, I do appreciate you coming to this forum and stating your position.

Yours in Christ
Posted By: Carson Daniel

Re: Protestants Convert More Eastern Catholics - 07/19/06 01:22 PM

Quote
Originally posted by Ray S.:
Joel Badal,

Are you an Evangelical Christian?

Do you not have a mission that converts Chaldean Christians into Evangelicals?
Ray,

The light just went on. This fellow has been sending my pms that were most confusing and arcane. I finally had to put a block on his profile. He seemed to be troubled that I was able to find out that he was in West Chicago. Perhaps we should pray for his conversion.

CDL
Posted By: Father Anthony

Re: Protestants Convert More Eastern Catholics - 07/27/06 11:53 AM

I have just had to delete three posts in the last 24 hours dealing with personal attacks and insults on this thread. To ensure that this does not become a constant problem here, this thread is being closed.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Administrator
© 2019 The Byzantine Forum