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Posted By: eli Freemasonry/Masonics and the Church (?) - 05/10/08 01:56 PM
I hope this thread is in the right place...

While I am still unable to fully grasp what the Masonic, the research that I have done stats that the Catholic Church forbids membership to this movement and yet even more:
Quote
...the Church�s negative judgment in regard to Masonic association remains unchanged since their principles have always been considered irreconcilable with the doctrine of the Church and therefore membership in them remains forbidden. The faithful who enroll in Masonic associations are in a state of grave sin and may not receive Holy Communion.
-Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith

Now I don't really know how other churches deal with this, but I know for a fact that many, many, of the key persons at local churches in here are actually Masonic, furthermore I hear of a priest which is or was one.

Could anyone explain to me please what should the church do?
and
I believe that many people who belong to such group are unaware of its doctrine, actually, most join because of the very good "connections" they can make and eventually do.
any comments on that?
Masonary is forbidden by Canon Law, pure and simple!
Stephanos I
When I return home I will see if there is any Canonical penalty attacthed for those people who join such organizations.
Posted By: Dr John Re: Freemasonry/Masonics and the Church (?) - 05/10/08 05:11 PM
"Masonary" [sic] is essentially a 'fraternal organization' accompanied by a lot of rituals. Scholars opine that the Freemasons arose as a social group, and the rituals were established to accommodate a real human need for the substance of ritual. (Cf. the Romanian/American anthropologist Mircea Eliade: "Myth, Ritual and Reality").

If I remember accurately, the US Conference of Catholic Bishops had a statement about this a number of years ago. Their perspective was that 'social' organizations, including the 'dress up and do ceremonial things' were not harmful in themselves, as long as they did not come into conflict with basic Christian and Catholic values.

The Shriners, for example, ride around on little cars with fezes on their heads (an abomination for Greeks!!), but they raise a lot of money for children's hospitals. Same with the Lions Club that focuses on vision problems. Or the "Odd Fellows" - originally a group of wealthy men in England who anonymously donated to the poor and to charitable causes and would make no public announcements - hence the name "Odd Fellows". Same with the Elks Club, the Moose and even the Knights of Columbus. All groups of men who get together, drink (probably) too much beer, and invest their time in helping others.

It would seem that as long as there are no human or animal sacrifices, or worship of strange gods, then there should be no harm.

OK! All together now: "In heaven, there is no beer.....Opsha! Opsha!!"

With (smiling) blessings for all!!

Dr John

PS: Is the Chicken Dance a 'ritual'?
What about the secret oaths which members of the Masonic orders take?

Those secret oaths where the candidate gives permission for his throat to be slashed or his entrails to pulled out should he violate the secret rules or fail to obey his superiors in the Masonic order -- these alone should raise serious questions.

Several Catholic priests have written about the dangers of associating with members of the masonic order.


I knew an Orthodox hieromonk who used to accompany his Bishop on pastoral visits. There was one parish they visited where the members were cold and unwelcoming. The parish was obviously dying. When the Bishop and hieromonk looked at the ring on the finger of the parish priest, they were surprised to see not a wedding ring, but a masonic ring. In that parish, rituals were observed to the letter of the law, but there was no love.
Posted By: dochawk Re: Freemasonry/Masonics and the Church (?) - 05/10/08 09:30 PM
Originally Posted by Dr John
Same with the Elks Club, the Moose and even the Knights of Columbus.

The KofC is a bit different.

The Ancient Order of Hibernians was initially founded in Ireland to hide priests from British soldiers, who were summarily executing them.

The Irish migration to the US was unusual in that the women came first (the pattern for all other groups was men first, who made money and sent it back for the women to join them). The AOH requested that the AOH in America be formed to protect the women (one of big things to protect them from was marrying Protestants . . .).

Fr. McGivney was involved in the AOH in America, but wanted an organization open to all Catholic men. At the time, catholics had the most dangerous jobs (particularly the Irish--they were used for jobs in the south that were considered too dangerous for slaves, such as draining swamps). The origin of the KofC is primarily a Catholic self-defense group and to protect the widows & orphans--the KofC life insurance goes all of the way back tothe beginning.

Today, now that being Catholic is not so dangerous, the KofC is much like the other fraternal groups, but with a Catholic focus.

hawk, active KofC and former AOH
(1.) Masonry denies that Jesus Christ is necessary for salvation, i.e., "there are many roads to God".

(2.) There are wings of Masonry which, mostly in Europe, which are atheistic and especially hostile to Christianity. They engage in political activity to remove the influence of the Church in society. (St. Pio of Pietrelcina was involved in the conversion of one such individual). I know a man born in Sicily who had become a freemason there, but who left and returned to the Church. He said that the initiation rite into his Lodge involved spitting upon a crucifix.

(3.) The leaders of the French Revolution were up to their necks in "Illuminist" Freemasonry. The goal was to create a "new world order", overthrowing the old Christian social order.

(4.) William Whalen wrote a book on Masonry a few years ago. He points out that the worst Supreme Court decisions in the U.S. (removal of prayer from Public Schools, Roe v. Wade, etc.) were the work of Masonic justices.

Masonry is not a benign force. That is why, until recently, it was an excommunicable offense for a Catholic to join a Masonic lodge. It is still considered to be seriously sinful to do so, as pointed out above.

In Christ,
Dn. Robert
Actually after this the Pope reinstated the Canon forbidding membership in organizations like the Masons, although they were not mentioned by name the implication was clear.

And far from being a faternal organization (the veneer they present) Masonism is an occult anti christian religion.
I known because I obtained some of their secrect books from my grandfather.
That is the big danger you see they lure people in under the clothing of being merely a benign "fraternal brotherhood" which they are not.
Stephanos I
Everyone should be aware of the dangers and delusions of Masonary! It's a serious issue to the salvation of one's soul.
Posted By: spdundas Re: Freemasonry/Masonics and the Church (?) - 05/11/08 05:01 PM
Hello all...

Stephanos is absolutely correct that Freemasonry is an occult...

In higher leves of Freemasons (30 to 33)...they worship the devil.

My friend who practices witchry (because she's an Indian aka Native American), she says that Freemasons are devil worshippers.

I even challenged my friend on witchry, she says there are good witches and evil witches.

But that's NOT the point, the point I'm trying to make, is that my friend who is not a Christian professes that Freemasons are "hidden" satanists. Very interesting.

I wonder for a long time in the Greek Church...there is a group called A.H.E.P.A. (American Hellenic Educational Progressive Association). IS that the same as Freemason??? Or is it similar to Roman Catholic's Knights of Columbus. That's the question I've been wanting to ask someone on this forum for a long time but didn't know when's a good time...but now that Freemasonry is the topic...it's a perfect time for me to ask.

I want to mention that we need to remember that the FOUNDATION of our Country...United States of America...is strongly Freemason. So, there are a lot of hidden anti-Christian elements of our country (the U.S. Constitution, laws, government, etc. etc. etc.).

I remember that Pope of Rome (don't remember which one) wrote either an Apostolic Letter or Encyclical (or Papal Bull) declaring that the United State's separation of religion and state is heresy. Of course, I am sure that Freemasonry is a root of that.

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine
Dear SPDunas,

While I don't doubt that Masons had a lot to do with the founding of the USA, I think the current Pope would disagree with your assesment of the country.

Originally Posted by spdundas
.... I want to mention that we need to remember that the FOUNDATION of our Country...United States of America...is strongly Freemason. So, there are a lot of hidden anti-Christian elements of our country (the U.S. Constitution, laws, government, etc. etc. etc.).

I remember that Pope of Rome (don't remember which one) wrote either an Apostolic Letter or Encyclical (or Papal Bull) declaring that the United State's separation of religion and state is heresy. Of course, I am sure that Freemasonry is a root of that.

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

Quote
VATICAN CITY, 30 APR 2008 (VIS)
In today's general audience, which was held in St. Peter's Square, the Pope dedicated his remarks to his recent apostolic trip to the U.S.A. ...

... During the meeting with President George Bush in the White House, said the Pope, "I had the opportunity to pay homage to that great country, which from its beginnings was built on the foundation of a harmonious union between religious, ethical and political principles, and which still constitutes a valid example of healthy laicism, where the religious dimension, in the diversity of its expressions, is not only tolerated but turned to advantage as the 'soul' of the nation and the fundamental guarantee of the rights and duties of human beings". ...

Not quite as bleak as that other Pope's point of view.

Posted By: Alice Re: Freemasonry/Masonics and the Church (?) - 05/11/08 07:36 PM
Quote
I wonder for a long time in the Greek Church...there is a group called A.H.E.P.A. (American Hellenic Educational Progressive Association). IS that the same as Freemason??? Or is it similar to Roman Catholic's Knights of Columbus. That's the question I've been wanting to ask someone on this forum for a long time but didn't know when's a good time...but now that Freemasonry is the topic...it's a perfect time for me to ask.

Dear Shane,

NO--AHEPA is nothing like the Freemasons...

Regards,
Alice
William Whalen's book, mentioned by Dn. Robert, is titled Christianity and American Freemasonry. It is available from Ignatius Press. ISBN 0-89870-672-6

It's original copyrite is from 1958, more than a few years ago, although it was revised (presumably updated) in 1987. It is an excellent book. I read it in one sitting and highly recommend it to anyone interested in the subject.
Posted By: Wolfgang Re: Freemasonry/Masonics and the Church (?) - 05/12/08 12:28 AM
Living His Life Abundantly on EWTN recently did a very informative program on Freemasonry from the perspective of a Catholic who joined Freemasonry for the commaraderie and eventually saw how it jeopardized his Catholic faith.

John Salza on Freemasonry [womenofgrace.com]
Posted By: eli Re: Freemasonry/Masonics and the Church (?) - 05/12/08 03:57 AM
wow,

You guys have clarified many things for me, and for that I am most thankful.

I am still wondering about the present stand of the Church in this matter, and how a simple person like me, and my priests should deal with this?

I have heard the claim that Freemasons are #1 charitable per capital, though I wonder if we should accept such charity that clearly has nothing to do with love or Christian ideology.
Posted By: spdundas Re: Freemasonry/Masonics and the Church (?) - 05/12/08 11:42 AM
I don't know about them being #1 charitable...if they are, then we need to ask...what kind of charity? Is it relating to charities that promote pro-abortion, or something that's not agreeable?

I know that the Catholic Church ranks the highest in charities in the world, so I find it hard that the Freemasons are #1.

Secondly...I'd like to point out that their charitable endeavers, however nice it is, is probably a major cover-up front to show that they are "good" people. Even the devil can be very nice and charming to people, can even be helpful, but there are underlining motivations.

So, we can't allow ourselves be swayed by their "generosity."

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine
I feel that in all fairness I have to point out that here in the UK they are very very charitable .

I know where fees were paid for 2 Children to continue at independant [ Fee Paying Schools outside the State System ] for 5 years after their Father's business collapsed. They were then supported through University . Not only were their fees paid for - but all necessities for School and Uni were provided.

Various Hospitals are also set up here - free when necessary to Masonic members and their families, Also Schools [ boarding ] which have excellent reputations and again for needy cases everything is provided.

Yes - my Father and his brother were Masons so I did come across some of these activities and I do know the emphasis that was placed on the fact that charity was given freely and frequently anonymously

I doubt whether the 2 children I quoted ever knew that it was not their parents who put them through School and Uni.
Canons 1374 and 278 deal with Masonic societies.
[b] Canon 1374 One who joins an association which plots against the Church is to be punished with a just penalty; one who promotes or moderates such an association, however, is to be punished with an interdict.[/b]

[b] Canon 278.3 Clerics are to refrain from establishing or participating in associations whose ends or activity cannot be reconciled with the obligations proper to the clerical state or which could hinder the diligent fulfillment of the duty entrusted to them by competent ecclesiastical authority.[/b]
Note:

The 1983 Code in canon 1374 forbids only in a general way those who plot against the Church and does not single out Masons. A declaration of the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrineof the Faith, however, reaffirmed the prohibition against joining the Masons.

Posted By: eli Re: Freemasonry/Masonics and the Church (?) - 05/13/08 10:02 AM
Thank you Stephanos,

Yet the image is still a bit blurry here, what confirms that Masons actually plot against the church?
Posted By: spdundas Re: Freemasonry/Masonics and the Church (?) - 05/13/08 01:23 PM
Eli,

You need to do your own research to find out information to answer your question.

There's no way that the forum could make a long list of information, it is just way too much information to be able to fit into this forum.

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine
It is well known in Europe, Northern Ireland and Mexico that these societies have been "intensely" anti catholic and anti clerical. The whole persecution of the Church in Mexico in the 20'2 was Masonic backed.
But my point was not so much as ploting against the Church but that part of the canon where it mentions no participation in societies whose goals cannont be reconciled with the Church.
One can hardly reconcile the pagan rites of freemasonary with the Catholic Church can they?
Stephanos I
Posted By: eli Re: Freemasonry/Masonics and the Church (?) - 05/14/08 06:43 PM
I fully understand this and agree to it.
yet it seems that we have totally different conceptions of masons here in the Holy Land...
and the fact that many of our good men (and many active in the church as well) belongs to this movement puzzles me.

peacefully,
eli
Posted By: Dr John Re: Freemasonry/Masonics and the Church (?) - 05/16/08 12:01 AM
I suspect that the main issue is of control. Since the Masons and other fraternal organizations exist outside the direct influence of the Roman Church structure, their very existence is suspect.

As Brother Eli notes, in the Middle East, the organization appears to do good things, as they also appear to do in Scotland and elsewhere.

To be honest, I'm a bit sceptical about reports of spitting on crucifixes and throat-slashings. They seem to be beyond the pale, and akin to the urban legends that plague modern society. Like the Jews using "dead Christian babies' blood" as sacrifices, or the use of dead Christian bones to make Matzoh that were common in the Pre-WWII European societies. The best way to hit your competition or opponent is to demonize them with accusations that are difficult to prove and dis-prove.

It seems that the only fair way to understand (isn't this the Christian way?) is to examine who they are and what they do. And then (and only then) determine one's relationship with the group. Apochryphal anecdotes are dangerous. They can lead to unjustified hate and persecution. While some members of a group can indeed be hateful and bigoted (witness some Christians still using the N-word), it is the majority of the group that really establishes the tenor of the organization.

And as Christians, we need to hitch up with other people of good will and good 'service to the needy'.

Blessings to All!

Dr John
RUSSIAN ORTHODOX GREEK CATHOLIC CHURCH OF AMERICA

HIS EMINENCE THE MOST REVEREND LEONTY ARCHBISHOP OF NEW YORK METROPOLITAN OF THE RUSSIAN ORTHODOX GREEK-CATHOLIC CHURCH OF AMERICA

59 EAST SECOND STREET NEW YORK 3, NEW YORK Telephone, Gramercy 7-7836

CIRCULAR LETTER

May 9, 1960 # 18649

TO ALL PASTORS AND CHURCH COMMITTEES OF THE RUSSIAN ORTHODOX GREEK CATHOLIC CHURCH OF AMERICA

The Great Council of Bishops of the Russian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church of America, in session on March 29, 1960 RESOLVED: to publicize again for general information, the resolution concerning Masonry passed by the Great Council of Bishops on October 25, 1949 (see Russian Orthodox Messenger, p. 33 # 3, 1950) which reads as follows:

a) to caution members of the Russian Orthodox Church of America and especially the pastors, of the incompatibility of membership in the saving Church of Christ and simultaneously membership in Masonic Lodges, which are a mixture of pagan and other religions with certain secret "initiations" as a fixed ritual of the order;

b) to explain to the faithful that our Church views Masonry in perfect accord with the teaching of the Greek Orthodox Church and accepts her testament expressed by the Head of the Church of the Hellenes, the Most Reverend Chrysostom, Archbishop of Athens, in session of October 12, 1933 in Athens, in the following two statements:

FIRST: All the faithful children of the Church must stand apart from Freemasonry. With unshaken faith in Our Lord Jesus Christ, possessing the truth revealed by Him and preached by His Apostles, partaking in the Divine Sacraments through which we are sanctified, we must not fall from the grace of Christ by becoming partakers of other mysteries. It is not lawful to belong at the same time to Christ and to search for redemption and moral perfection outside Him.

SECOND: all who have become involved in the initiations of masonic mysteries must from this moment sever all relations with masonic lodges and activities, being sure that they are thereby of a certainty renewing their links with our one Lord and Saviour which were weakened by ignorance and a wrong sense of values.

c) to reiterate the statement of the Eastern Churches to those who entered masonry not realizing that by it they were passing into another religion comparable to the Gnostic sects of Egypt, Syria, Asia Minor, Persia and Greece, that the Church awaits with great love their contrition for their ignorant departure from Christ, and calls on all faithful to pray that the One Lord Jesus Christ 'the way, the truth and the life' may illumine and return to the truth those who in ignorance have gone astray.

d) to caution all faithful, especially the youth, to take to heart the directions of our Episcopate concerning Masonry, that the Grace of God be with them, their parents and relatives and with their organizations, now abiding in the mercies from above for their loyalty to the Orthodox Church of their fathers.

This resolution is to be promulgated to all concerned and is to be published in the official organ of the Metropolia and if possible, in circulars, for the guidance of all."

In informing all members of the Russian Orthodox Church of America of the above, the Great Council of Bishops strongly recommends that all Reverend Rectors admonish their parishioners who are members of the Masonic Lodges, and use their pastoral influence, especially during Penance, that they repent and leave the masonic organizations. The parishioners who refuse to do so are to be deprived, as unrepentant sinners, of Holy Communion of the Body and Blood of Christ, to whom is glory and honor forever. Amen.

The names of those deprived of Communion must be kept in the parish records as evidence for their exclusion from membership in Parish and Diocesan councils and as delegates to the All-American Sobor. SIGNED by Member of the Metropolitan Council Protopresbyter Feofan Buketoff and Secretary of the Metropolitan Council Right Reverend Joseph Pishtey.


Alexandr
A little about Masonry and why it is incompatible with being a Christian. Each section starts with quotes from Masonic authorities, and is concluded by quotes from Christian Scripture. When you put them side by side like this, the two are clearly seen as incompatible.

JESUS CHRIST

Masonry: "In his private petitions a man may petition God or Jehovah, Allah or Buddha, Mohammed or Jesus; he may call upon the God of Israel or the First Great Cause. In the Masonic Lodge he hears petition to the Great Architect of the Universe, finding his own deity under that name. A hundred paths may wind upward around a mountain; at the top they meet." (Carl H. Claudy, "Introduction to Freemasonry." p. 38)

Christianity: Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the Life: no man cometh to the Father, but by me. (Jn.14:6) Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name {but Jesus} under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved. (Acts 4:12)

---------------------------

GOD

Masonry: "...Since every man's conception of God must be proportioned to his mental cultivation, and intellectual powers, and moral excellence. God is, as man conceives Him, the reflected image of man himself. (Albert Pike, "Morals and Dogma," 14th Degree, p. 234) "The only personal God Freemasonry accepts is humanity in toto...Humanity therefore is the only personal God that there is." (J.D. Buck, "Mystic Masonry," p. 216) "The Absolute is Reason. Reason IS, by means of itself. It IS because IT IS...If God IS, HE IS by Reason." (Albert Pike, "Morals and Dogma," 28th Degree. p. 737)

Christianity: In the Beginning God created the heaven and the earth. (Gen. 1:1) For there are three that bear record in Heaven, the Father, the Word {Jesus}, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. (I Jn. 5:7) God said undo Moses, I AM THAT I AM... (Ex. 3:14)

------------------------------

THE HOLY BIBLE

Masonry: "...the literal meaning (of the Bible) is for the vulgar only." (Albert Pike, "Digest of Morals and Dogma," p. 166) "Masonry makes no profession of Christianity...but looks forward to the time when the labor of our ancient brethren shall be symbolized by the erection of a spiritual temple...in which there shall be but one alter and one worship; one common altar of Masonry on which the Veda, Shastra, Sade, Zend-Avesta, Koran and Holy Bible shall lie...and at whose shrine the Hindoo, the Persian, the Assyrian, the Chaldean, the Egyptian, the Chinese, the Mohammedan, the Jew and the Christian may kneel..." ("The Kentucky Monitor." Fellowcraft Degree, p. 95) The removal of the name of Jesus and references to Him in Bible verses used in the ritual are "slight but necessary modifications." (Albert Mackey, "Masonic Ritualist." p. 272)

Christianity: The Words of the Lord are pure words, as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. (Psa. 12:6) All Scripture is given by inspiration of God... (II Tim. 3:16) ...if they speak not according to this Word, it is because there is no light in them. (Isa. 8:20)

------------------------------

REDEMPTION

Masonry: "These three degrees (1st, 2nd, 3rd) thus form a perfect an harmonious whole, nor can it be conceived that anything can be suggested more, which the soul of man requires." (Daniel Sickles, "Ahimon Rezon or Freemason's Guide." p. 196) "If we with suitable true devotion maintain our Masonic profession, our faith will become a beam of light an bring us to those blessed mansions where we shall be eternally happy with God, the Great Architect of the Universe." (Daniel Sickles, "Ahimon Rezon or Freemason's Guide." p. 79) "...salvation by faith and the vicarious atonement were not taught as now interpreted, by Jesus, nor are these doctrines taught in the esoteric scriptures. They are later and ignorant perversions of the original doctrines." (J.D. Buck, "Mystic Masonry." p. 57)

Christianity: As it is written. There is none righteous no not one: (Rom. 3:10) For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. (Rom. 3:23) For He hath made Him {Jesus} to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him. (II Cor. 5:21) For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. (Eph. 2:8-9)

---------------------------------------

SATAN

Masonry: "The conviction of all men that God is good led to a belief in a devil..." (Albert Pike, "Morals and Dogma." 19th Degree, p. 324) "...there is no rebellious demon of Evil, or Principle of Darkness coexistent and in eternal controversy with God, or the Principle of Light..." (Albert Pike, "Morals and Dogma," 32nd Degree, p.859)

Christianity: Ye are of your father, the devil...he is a liar, and the father of it. (Jn. 8:44) Resist the devil, and he will flee from you. (Jas. 4:7) Put on the whole armor of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. (Eph. 6:11-12) ...your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour. (I Pet. 5:8)

--------------------------------------

TRUTHFULNESS

Masonry: The Mason Doctrine teaches that it right to lie, if necessary to protect the secrets of the Lodge, or to protect brother Masons by concealing his wrongdoing. It can even be right to deliberately deceive sincere Masons seeking to learn the lessons and secrets of Masonry.

"The Blue Degrees are but the portico (porch) of the Temple. Part of the symbols are displayed there to the initiate, but he is intentionally misled by false interpretations. It is not intended that he shall understand them; but it is intended that he shall imagine that he understands them...their true ecplication (explanation / understanding) is reserved for the Adepts, the Princes of Masonry." (Albert Pike, "Morals and Dogma," 30th Degree, p. 189) "You must conceal all crimes of your brother Masons...and should you be summoned as a witness against a brother Mason be always sure to shield him...It may be perjury to do this, it is true, but you're keeping your obligations." (Ronayne, "Handbook of Masonry." p. 183) "Furthermore do I promise and swear that a Master Mason's secrets, given to me in charge as such, and I knowing them to be such, shall remain as secure and inviolable in my breast as in his own, when communicated to me, murder and treason excepted; and they left to my own election." (Master Mason's / 3rd Degree Oath of Obligation)

Christianity: Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor. (Ex. 20:16) Ye shall not steal, neither deal falsely, neither lie one to another. (Lev. 19:11) ...lie not to one another. (Col. 3:9) ...all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone; which is the second death. (Rev 21:8)

-----------------------------------

SECRECY & BLOOD OATHS

Masonry: Secrecy is indispensable in a Mason of whatever degree." (Albert Pike, "Morals and Dogma," 4th Degree, p. 109) I...do hereon most solemnly and sincerely promise and swear that I will always hail, ever conceal and never reveal any of the arts, parts or points of the secret arts any mysteries of ancient Freemasonry which I have received, am about to receive, or may hereafter be instructed in..." (Oath of Obligation, Entered Apprentice/1st Degree, and include in all subsequent degrees, always on penalty of mayhem and violent death) "...binding myself under no less a penalty that that of having my body severed in twain, my bowels taken out and burned to ashes, the ashes scattered to the four winds of heaven..." (from the Oath of Obligation, Master Mason/Third Degree) "...In willful violation whereof may I incur the fearful penalty of having my eyeballs pierced to the center with a three-edged blade, my feet flayed and I be forced to walk the hot sands upon sterile shores of the Red Sea until the flaming Sun shall strike me with a livid plague, and may Allah, the god of Arab, Moslem and Mohammedan, the god of our fathers, support me to the entire fulfillment of the same." (from the Oath of Obligation, Ancient Arabic Order of Nobles of the Mystic Shrine ["Shriners"])

Christianity: I {Jesus} spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple...and in secret have I said nothing. (Jn. 18:20) Provide things honest in the sight of all men. (Rom. 12:17) Thou shalt not kill (murder). (Ex. 20:13) But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation. (Jas. 5:12)

Alexandr
Posted By: spdundas Re: Freemasonry/Masonics and the Church (?) - 05/16/08 12:44 AM
Alexandr...

Thanks for your postings! On your second posting (Mason VS Christian belief)...can you supply a source for it? So I can have something concrete as evidence to show the fact.

Thanks,

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine
Let me warn and reiterate again! A Christian "CANNOT" be a mason the two are absolutely opposed to one another. One who thinks he can mingle syncratistic religion with the truth of the Gospel has only deluded himself and runs the risk of loosing his own soul!
Stephanos I
I know a mason who is a 33 degree mason and a Greek Orthodox Christian. His friends paid for his installment in the masonic rank. He regrets it now and is afraid of leaving it.

So he does not go unless he absolutely has to.

Just adding -- he does not recommend that anyone join it. He feels like a slave.
I had some very wealthy relatives who were masonic.

They were cold, calculating, and dishonest, and rarely attended church. They put a couple of my relatives in mental hospitals so that they could take away their inheritance and leave them penniless. So much for charity.

p.s. And those two relatives were not mentally ill, just anemic like many Greek Americans.
I do not know the entire history of Masonry; however, crafts were founded to gain power.

Then there is the saying of Lord Acton: Power corrupts, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.
This is from a Protestant source...so beware reading other sections which contain false theology. BUT, it does have direct quotes from prominent 'Christian' Masons showing the complete elimination of repentance for sin and dependence on a personal
God which Masonry replaces with man-centered humanism and religious syncretism:
http://www.crossroad.to/Quotes/spirituality/peale.htm
Posted By: Alice Re: Freemasonry/Masonics and the Church (?) - 05/16/08 11:20 AM
Originally Posted by Elizabeth Maria
I had some very wealthy relatives who were masonic.

They were cold, calculating, and dishonest, and rarely attended church. They put a couple of my relatives in mental hospitals so that they could take away their inheritance and leave them penniless. So much for charity.
I have always heard that joining a Masonic temple is usually so that one will find wealth and success. RIGHT there, one has chosen to follow false gods and idols rather than Jesus Christ...networking and making contacts for one's career is not evil unto itself, but joining a secret society which calls itself a 'temple' is a horse of another color.

I have to say that I was really shocked to read your blanket statement of:

Quote
p.s. And those two relatives were not mentally ill, just anemic like many Greek Americans.
.


While I would not disagree that many Greek born Americans are agnostic or even atheists, (though I don't exactly know what you meant by 'anemic') and that many Greek Americans born there or here, put too much value and pride in success and money above all else (though they have been blessed with the gift of hard work and brains to attain it--those particular ethnic genes seemingly gone dormant in my case, however..), they are not different in that way in numbers from other ethnic groups in this country.

Infact, it is the very ethos of this country which emphasizes hard work, success and money that they have strived to achieve. They have done that and they have contributed to this country greatly in every way, from the hard working immigrant off the boat like my grandfatherm who came here to escape horrific poverty, to generations of offspring born and raised in this country.

The only difference that sometimes offends me, personally, is that some of the Greek born agnostics participate heavily in the life of the church, often making life miserable for their more pious fellow parishioners and/or the priest--which, ofcourse, they do for cultural reasons and not religious ones...BUT, as one Greek Orthodox priest once wisely said, better they be in church so that something may penetrate for the good of their souls, than not be in it.

Never the less, I do think that your blanket statement of many Greek Americans being 'anemic', as it is worded, is crossing the boundaries of charity towards me and other Americans of Greek descent, don't you think?

In the Risen Christ,
Alice, Moderator




Dear Alice,

I apologize for the misunderstanding created.

Quite a few of the Greek and Lebanese Americans I know at my church have anemia, which leaves them exhausted at times. It is also called the Mediterranean curse and offers some protection among those who have it from the scourge of malaria, much like sickle-cell anemia which offers that same protection.

In addition, there are different types of anemia. There is also an anemia caused by B-12 deficiency, which may be complicated by wheat-intolerance. This anemia is found in the northern European areas especially in the Scandinavian countries.

Since certain unscrupulous Masonic people in my family successfully went to court to get my relatives declared mentally incompetent when in fact they had anemia, I wanted to make this deed known to inform people to be careful.

I did not mean my statement to offend, but only to share the many injustices done when people with anemia are labeled as mentally incompetent, when they are in fact physically ill.

In the Risen Christ,

Elizabeth

p.s. If you want to change the wording from 'many' to some, go ahead as I cannot edit that post.
Posted By: theophan Re: Freemasonry/Masonics and the Church (?) - 05/16/08 08:52 PM
EM:

Christ is Risen!! Indeed He is Risen!!

There was a program on EWTN one night where a man who had left the Masonic Orders spoke. Your friend should go to his priest and go to confession. That's the first thing this former Mason--Catholic--said he did. From there, the priest will know what public or private things must be done to separate the man from the oaths he has taken as a Mason.

In Christ,

BOB
Posted By: theophan Re: Freemasonry/Masonics and the Church (?) - 05/16/08 08:58 PM
Quote
It seems that the only fair way to understand (isn't this the Christian way?) is to examine who they are and what they do. And then (and only then) determine one's relationship with the group.

DR JOHN:

Christ is Risen!! Indeed He is Risen!!

I think some of the anecdotes come from men who have been active members, dropped out, and written books about their experiences. Though I have no first-hand knowledge, I have skimmed a few of these books. There was also a program on EWTN within the past month during which a former Mason spoke at length about his experiences, the oaths, rituals, etc., and his move out and back to the Church.

There is no doubt about the many good things that the members of the Masonic Lodges do, but it is in the secrete rituals and oaths membrs are required to take to attain and maintain membership that the problems with the Church come itn.

In Christ,

BOB
Christ is Risen!
Indeed He is Risen!

Dear Bob,

I guess part of the problem is that some Greek Orthodox Priests are members of the Masonic Order too. Yes, they should not be, but they believe and have been taught that the Masonic Order in the USA and freemasonry are two different things.

I believe that many masons here in the USA have been deceived into joining it. Then once they are in, it becomes difficult to leave especially when networks are in place and they are reaping financial rewards. Cutting their ties with masonry can be very damaging to their businesses and their social life.

Oh, by the way, check out the website below for a discussion on Thalassemia (the Mediterranean inherited curse which afflicts Greeks, Italians, and others who live in the Mediterranean areas).

http://www.medicinenet.com/beta_thalassemia/article.htm

In Christ,
Elizabeth
Posted By: theophan Re: Freemasonry/Masonics and the Church (?) - 05/16/08 09:06 PM
Quote
I guess part of the problem is that some Greek Orthodox Priests are members of the Masonic Order too.

EM:

Christ is Risen!! Indeed He is Risen!!

Maybe the answer is to find another Orthodox priest who is not. I rather doubt that our ROCOR clergy are masonic members.

In Christ,

BOB
Dear Bob:

Christ is Risen! Indeed He is Risen!

Yes, the ROCOR clergy and hierarchy are much more knowledgeable about masonry and their clergy openly forbid their parishioners from joining the masonic order. After all, they have been persecuted by masonic members who have denounced Christianity.

In fact, masons worldwide have been attacking monasticism within the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. St. Padre Pio was attacked by masons in the Catholic Church. This I read in several biographical books. St. Nectarios was likewise attacked by Greek Orthodox masonic bishops according to several biographies I read.

Let us pray that masons will be converted and saved.

In Christ,
Elizabeth

Originally Posted by theophan
Quote
I guess part of the problem is that some Greek Orthodox Priests are members of the Masonic Order too.

EM:

Christ is Risen!! Indeed He is Risen!!

Maybe the answer is to find another Orthodox priest who is not. I rather doubt that our ROCOR clergy are masonic members.

In Christ,

BOB
Originally Posted by Elizabeth Maria
Christ is Risen!
Indeed He is Risen!

Dear Bob,

I guess part of the problem is that some Greek Orthodox Priests are members of the Masonic Order too. Yes, they should not be, but they believe and have been taught that the Masonic Order in the USA and freemasonry are two different things.

In Christ,
Elizabeth
Dear Elizabeth Maria,

Would you like to substantiate this claim or offer it as your opinion? By you presenting it as fact, I find it outlandish and smacking with prejudice as your previous remarks.

Also this thread is dealing with one subject "Freemasonry" not medicine. If you want to start another thread to cover that please do so since it is off-topic in this thread.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Dear Father Anthony,

I am sure that a google or Amazon search might reveal the books I read about St. Padre Pio and St. Nectarios who were silenced by masons in high places within the church. In fact, I bought these books from priests, but when I passed them to others to read, they did not return them but had passed them on to others. That was several years ago.

Regarding the few Orthodox Priests that I personally know who are involved in Masonry, it would not be right to out them here by mentioning names. I believe that they are good men, but deceived.

That is why I said that we need to pray for masons that they may be saved.

Respectfully in Christ,
Elizabeth
Dear Elizabeth Maria,

I'm sorry, but your reply is unacceptable. Before you offer up something, be prepare to back it up. I find the statement to be nothing but a slur to the Greek Orthodox clergy. As far your personal experience I find that to as believable as your other statement.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Here are some Catholic sources which I just googled that show how deceitful and/or misguided masons are:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&...&as_nlo=&as_nhi=&safe=images

http://www.tanbooks.com/doct/padre_pio.htm

Quote
Alberto Del Fante, the writer and first biographer of Padre Pio, who by his writings led thousands and thousands of people to San Giovanni Rotondo, used to be a fervent Freemason. As a Mason, he had also written some harsh articles against Padre Pio in the Florentine magazine Italia Laica, without even having met him. However, a prodigious healing - attributed to Padre Pio's prayers - of Del Fante's nephew, for whom the doctors had left no hope, stirred in him a desire to go to see Padre Pio. He undertook the trip to San Giovanni Rotondo out of curiosity and with much skepticism, but when he saw Padre Pio and assisted at his Holy Mass, he was so struck that he changed his life; he went on to become a militant Catholic and one of Padre Pio's most fervent and zealous spiritual children.

http://www.tanbooks.com/doct/freemasonry.htm

Quote
No Compromise with Masonry

We pray and beseech you, Venerable Brethren, to join your efforts with Ours, and earnestly to strive for the extirpation of this foul plague, which is creeping through the veins of the State. You have to defend the glory of God and the salvation of your neighbor; and with this object of your strife before you, neither courage nor strength will be wanting. It will be for your prudence to judge by what means you can best overcome the difficulties and obstacles you meet with. But as it befits the authority of Our office that We Ourselves should point out some suitable way of proceeding, We wish it to be your rule first of all to tear away the mask from Freemasonry, and to let it be seen as it really is; and by sermons and Pastoral Letters to instruct the people as to the artifices used by societies of this kind in seducing men and enticing them into their ranks, and as to the depravity of their opinions and the wickedness of their acts. As Our predecessors have many times repeated, let no man think that he may for any reason whatsoever join the Masonic sect, if he values his Catholic name and his eternal salvation as he ought to value them. Let no one be deceived by a pretense of honesty. It may seem to some that Freemasons demand nothing that is openly contrary to religion and morality; but, as the whole principle and object of the sect lies in what is vicious and criminal, to join with these men or in any way to help them cannot be lawful.
I am googling my sources for the Orthodox Church.
I will step in here and support Father Anthony�s and Alice�s admonitions to Elizabeth Maria.

Originally Posted by Elizabeth Maria
I had some very wealthy relatives who were masonic.

They were cold, calculating, and dishonest, and rarely attended church. They put a couple of my relatives in mental hospitals so that they could take away their inheritance and leave them penniless. So much for charity.
Does Elizabeth Maria�s parish contain only warm, unselfish, totally honest people who always attend Church? I�m sorry, but such a blanket uncharitable statement is not worthy of someone who says she is a follower of Jesus Christ.

Originally Posted by Elizabeth Maria
p.s. And those two relatives were not mentally ill, just anemic like many Greek Americans.
Ditto to my point above.

Originally Posted by Elizabeth Maria
[C]ertain unscrupulous Masonic people in my family�.
Ditto to my point above. Masons are misguided in their theology. That does not make them unscrupulous. Most of us Christians have run into other Christians who happen to be unscrupulous. Should we state that �Certain unscrupulous Christian people in my family�?

Originally Posted by Elizabeth Maria
I guess part of the problem is that some Greek Orthodox Priests are members of the Masonic Order too.
I am sure that there have been Greek Orthodox priests who have been Masons. I once worked with a Catholic layman who was a Mason. He was totally unaware of the theology of that group (the lower orders generally seem to be). Perhaps it is possible for this Greek priest you are speaking of to have thought he joined a social group and not a group with a non-Christian theology?

I most strongly recommend to our sister, Elizabeth Maria, to choose her words more carefully and to refrain from blanket, unsubstantiated insults to various ethnic and religious groups.

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