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EWTN divine liturgy

Posted By: Byzantine TX

EWTN divine liturgy - 06/18/08 01:42 PM

"Today
9:30am - 11:00am, EWTN (261)
49th Annual Eucharistic Congress: Celebration of the Eucharist in the Byzantine Rite

A Byzantine Rite Mass is celebrated."

Will be rebroadcast later.
Posted By: Michael McD

Re: EWTN divine liturgy - 06/18/08 02:29 PM

They are beginning right now.
Posted By: Chtec

Re: EWTN divine liturgy - 06/18/08 02:56 PM

What a lovely liturgy!

Mercifully, the voice-overs have stopped! smile

Dave
Posted By: Fr Serge Keleher

Re: EWTN divine liturgy - 06/18/08 03:50 PM

This is indeed an enjoyable Liturgy - I'll do some criticisms later, no doubt. For now, kudos to Metropolitan Lawrence for a good sermon which follows the adage that the preacher should leave the assembly wanting to hear more! For those who may not have recognized him, the priest directing the Ukrainian chanters is Mitred Archpriest Roman Galadza, of Saint Elias Church, Brampton, Ontario. His wife, Presbytera Irene, is visible among the singers.

Thanks for bringing this to my attention - I managed to tune in just in time for the Great Synapte.

Fr. Serge
Posted By: Little Green Coat

Re: EWTN divine liturgy - 06/18/08 03:57 PM

Wonderful!!!

Was Met. Basil Schlot present?
Posted By: AndreaW

Re: EWTN divine liturgy - 06/18/08 04:27 PM

That was beautiful!! I do have one question that has been bothering me since I watched the NO last night and I noticed the same thing today-

Why were there what looked like teenage (young adult) girls dressed up in robes processing in and out among/with the bishops? The robes were very similar to what the Bishops were wearing. What would the purpose of that be? I noticed as everyone was processing out of Divine Liturgy the girls were there again. I've been trying to figure out their purpose since last night. confused

The music was lovely!
Posted By: Michael McD

Re: EWTN divine liturgy - 06/18/08 04:44 PM

I don't know about the young ladies, I just wanted to comment about the music. The lack of musical instruments (I know they are verboten in the Eastern Rites!) was excellent! I love the continuity between the invocations of the Deacon and the responses of the choir/congregation, even the overlapping aspect, it's beautiful and completely precluded when "Lead-foot" on the organ has to "key up" everything. shocked

Michael
Posted By: asianpilgrim

Re: EWTN divine liturgy - 06/18/08 04:45 PM

Originally Posted by AndreaW
That was beautiful!! I do have one question that has been bothering me since I watched the NO last night and I noticed the same thing today-

Why were there what looked like teenage (young adult) girls dressed up in robes processing in and out among/with the bishops? The robes were very similar to what the Bishops were wearing. What would the purpose of that be? I noticed as everyone was processing out of Divine Liturgy the girls were there again. I've been trying to figure out their purpose since last night. confused

The music was lovely!


THose were the female altar servers who were accompanying the Latin bishops. Seems there are a lot more female than male altar servers in this event, I hope I'm wrong, though.

As for their robes...well, do you now understand why they are sometimes called "stealth priestesses" by conservative Roman Catholics?
Posted By: asianpilgrim

Re: EWTN divine liturgy - 06/18/08 04:54 PM

Originally Posted by Serge Keleher
This is indeed an enjoyable Liturgy - I'll do some criticisms later, no doubt. For now, kudos to Metropolitan Lawrence for a good sermon which follows the adage that the preacher should leave the assembly wanting to hear more! For those who may not have recognized him, the priest directing the Ukrainian chanters is Mitred Archpriest Roman Galadza, of Saint Elias Church, Brampton, Ontario. His wife, Presbytera Irene, is visible among the singers.

Thanks for bringing this to my attention - I managed to tune in just in time for the Great Synapte.

Fr. Serge


It was wonderful! I hope that EWTN will broadcast it once more. And nice "full" great omophorion that Metropolitan Lawrence had!

The stark contrast between the vestments and behavior of the Ukrainian and Melkite bishops on one one hand, and the Latin bishops and cardinals on the other, was just too painful for this Roman Catholic. I was especially surprised when the Latin clergy began clapping at the end of the liturgy. Apparently, very few have read the Pope's admonitions against clapping in the liturgy.

I did notice that it was quite short for a Hierarchical Divine Liturgy (just under 2 hours, counting the long processions in and out of the sanctuary, the long communion and the repetition of certain elements of the liturgy in different languages) but I guess it was due to the relatively fast singing, and perhaps the hierarchs were also mindful of who were attending the event -- a crowd of mostly-young Latins who probably wouldn't tolerate a 3-hour liturgy.
Posted By: AndreaW

Re: EWTN divine liturgy - 06/18/08 04:54 PM

Originally Posted by asianpilgrim

THose were the female altar servers who were accompanying the Latin bishops. Seems there are a lot more female than male altar servers in this event, I hope I'm wrong, though.

As for their robes...well, do you now understand why they are sometimes called "stealth priestesses" by conservative Roman Catholics?


Thanks for the response.

I didn't realize that the female altar servers would wear the same robe (or very similar) as the Bishop. And I thought servers would have come in first, not among the Bishops. I didn't see them serve the Mass at all last night so I was wondering if that's what they were.

My husband called them stealth priestesses too. It certainly looked confusing, and I was wondering if there was a legitimate reason for it.
Posted By: AndreaW

Re: EWTN divine liturgy - 06/18/08 04:56 PM

Originally Posted by asianpilgrim


The stark contrast between the vestments and behavior of the Ukrainian and Melkite bishops on one one hand, and the Latin bishops and cardinals on the other, was just too painful for this Roman Catholic. I was especially surprised when the Latin clergy began clapping at the end of the liturgy. Apparently, very few have read the Pope's admonitions against clapping in the liturgy.



I totally agree.
Posted By: Michael McD

Re: EWTN divine liturgy - 06/18/08 05:20 PM

Whaassaat? "Those were the female altar servers who were accompanying the Latin bishops"?

Since when do bishops have accompanists? Are you serious or kidding?


Posted By: Byzantine TX

Re: EWTN divine liturgy - 06/18/08 08:14 PM

I'm glad EWTN put it on. My only complaint is the multilingual component they felt obliged to do. It made the liturgy feel more like a presentation than what it truly is. Did they need to put in 12+ languages to show the co-universality of the Eastern Churches? Maybe I value familiarity too much, but it made "participation" difficult.
Posted By: Diak

Re: EWTN divine liturgy - 06/18/08 09:59 PM

Anyone record it by chance? His Eminence Metropolitan +Lawrence is indeed an engaging preacher - and of course any chance to hear Archpriest Roman leading the kliros is a joy.
Posted By: Logos - Alexis

Re: EWTN divine liturgy - 06/19/08 01:19 AM

I'm TIVOing it at midnight, since I was away at college and therefore couldn't see/couldn't record it this morning until I got home.

Oh, I'm also TIVOing Gate of Heaven which starts at 10 PM, in which Arcbishop Burke of St. Louis (at that time, I think he was simply Bishop Burke of La Crosse) consecrates an oratory according to the Traditional Roman Rite (well..."Form," maybe).

Alexis
Posted By: Chtec

Re: EWTN divine liturgy - 06/19/08 03:26 AM

Originally Posted by Byzantine TX
I'm glad EWTN put it on. My only complaint is the multilingual component they felt obliged to do. It made the liturgy feel more like a presentation than what it truly is. Did they need to put in 12+ languages to show the co-universality of the Eastern Churches? Maybe I value familiarity too much, but it made "participation" difficult.


I disagree. What one language should have been chosen? Greek? English? French? Ukrainian?

At an international congress, it only makes sense to include various languages in the Liturgy, especially at a Byzantine Liturgy concelebrated by clergy from many countries. This is standard practice in the Orthodox world for such gatherings, and I'd assume in the Eastern Catholic world as well.

In other news, I did enjoy one bit of commentary: the woman reading the Communion Prayer in Slovak was described as "Communion Instructions in Ukrainian." laugh

Dave
Posted By: Daniil

Re: EWTN divine liturgy - 06/19/08 04:15 AM

Hah! I find it funny that the majority of comments here deal with the "female servers" and not with the fact that the hand washing and blessings after the Gospel and Cherubicon were cut, or that those two kids holding the staff (Finnian) and candle (Matejko) did such an amazing job! However, the compliments on the singing are completely appropriate, in my opinion. (I might add that they sounded even better in person.)

About the "female servers": I found it strange at first, but they were simply ushers that were wearing albs.

Posted By: Daniil

Re: EWTN divine liturgy - 06/19/08 04:23 AM

Regarding the time, asianpilgrim: yes, it was short for a hierarchical service (due to many abbreviations which I will not discuss here for sanity's sake), however, as discussed in other threads, you can do the full hierarchical in less time and you can also make it last much longer.
Posted By: Fr Serge Keleher

Re: EWTN divine liturgy - 06/19/08 08:53 AM

Have no idea what TIVO means - but if it can be transformed into a DVD, I would be most grateful.

Thanks for the confirmation that the hand-washing was omitted at the Great Entrance. I thought that was the case, but there was a risk that it might have been done and I simply didn't see it on television.

Fr. Serge
Posted By: Logos - Alexis

Re: EWTN divine liturgy - 06/19/08 02:22 PM

TIVO's just a program that records selected shows; you can fast forward, rewind, etc. You know, Fr. Serge, I appreciate ascetism in a priest and all, but TIVO's been around for a while now! wink

Unfortunately, I think I heard somewhere that TIVO'ed programs can't be recorded onto DVDs, but then again I don't see why they couldn't. I can attempt to try, and let you know if it works, but I must warn you: I am an embarrassment to my generation as far as technological prowess is concerned. It's not my forte', and I'm bound to mess it up, but we'll see.

I think that overall the service was very well done. Aside from the abbreviations and complete deletions that some people mention above, I thought the singing was quite well done, and I thought the deacon and the main celebrant-hierarch did great jobs.

I do have a couple questions, however.

Daniil,

Why did female ushers wear albs, albs that looked a lot like the cheap chasubles the Latin hierarchs were wearing? It just smells like an "agenda" to me, but maybe I'm just a naturally suspicious person.

Another thing: I have never understood why many Eastern Catholic bishops' mitres are of a certain, less ornamental and "plasticky-looking" variety, as opposed to most Orthodox bishops' mitres. Yesterday in the liturgy most of the EC bishops wore that type of mitre, although the main celebrant had a wonderful mitre on that didn't appear in this style. Just wondering what causes the difference.

Anyway, I thought that they did as good a job as could reasonably be expected in such a terrible venue, but the locationm, setup, and decoration were par for the course since our dear old friend the ex-Papal MC Piero Marini is now, mercifully, in charge of the international Eucharistic congresses. Mercifully for papal liturgies, anyway.

Alexis

Posted By: Byzantine TX

Re: EWTN divine liturgy - 06/19/08 03:23 PM

Originally Posted by Chtec
Originally Posted by Byzantine TX
I'm glad EWTN put it on. My only complaint is the multilingual component they felt obliged to do. It made the liturgy feel more like a presentation than what it truly is. Did they need to put in 12+ languages to show the co-universality of the Eastern Churches? Maybe I value familiarity too much, but it made "participation" difficult.


I disagree. What one language should have been chosen? Greek? English? French? Ukrainian?

At an international congress, it only makes sense to include various languages in the Liturgy, especially at a Byzantine Liturgy concelebrated by clergy from many countries. This is standard practice in the Orthodox world for such gatherings, and I'd assume in the Eastern Catholic world as well.

In other news, I did enjoy one bit of commentary: the woman reading the Communion Prayer in Slovak was described as "Communion Instructions in Ukrainian." laugh

Dave


I'm not saying one language. If made king for a day I would have stuck to English, French, and Slavonic. Of course I was not and will not be. We certainly didn't get the in-your-face, diversity-first experience the Pope had to endure in DC.
Posted By: Fr Serge Keleher

Re: EWTN divine liturgy - 06/19/08 03:28 PM

I would have thought that for the primary language there would be a choice of two, since the Liturgy was taking place in Quebec City: Greek (the original language) or French (the language of Quebec).

But then, I would also have thought that one of the Melkite hierarchs or the Romanian hierarch would have been invited to give the blessing of the vine during the Trisagion. Silly me!

Fr. Serge
Posted By: Michael McD

Re: EWTN divine liturgy - 06/19/08 03:51 PM

Quote
We certainly didn't get the in-your-face, diversity-first experience the Pope had to endure in DC.


Ah, you noticed that too!
Posted By: Altar Server

Re: EWTN divine liturgy - 06/22/08 04:57 PM

I sadly did not see the Divine Liturgy but I saw the NO Mass and it was an outrage to me a round altar female altar servers and I'm a Latin Rite Catholic I couldn't bear to watch it so I turned it off how ever I noticed later on thinking back that the Female (Altar servers) where Just acting as ushers.
Posted By: Our Lady's slave

Re: EWTN divine liturgy - 06/22/08 05:04 PM

Altar Server

whether you like it or not - female Servers are permitted in the RC Church. It is left to each Bishop to decide whether they will permit it in their Diocese.

There are many parishes where boys will not come forward to serve - so either the Priest is on his own - or he has girls.
Posted By: Altar Server

Re: EWTN divine liturgy - 06/22/08 06:01 PM

Originally Posted by Our Lady's slave
Altar Server

whether you like it or not - female Servers are permitted in the RC Church. It is left to each Bishop to decide whether they will permit it in their Diocese.

There are many parishes where boys will not come forward to serve - so either the Priest is on his own - or he has girls.

but in the document released by John Paul II it said that women where allowed to serve if there where no males avalible to do so so this is a great abuse of this rule or at least this is my interpritation of it
sorry I can't spell )

biggrin biggrin
Posted By: Michael McD

Re: EWTN divine liturgy - 06/22/08 06:01 PM

Originally Posted by Our Lady's slave
Altar Server

whether you like it or not - female Servers are permitted in the RC Church. It is left to each Bishop to decide whether they will permit it in their Diocese.

There are many parishes where boys will not come forward to serve - so either the Priest is on his own - or he has girls.


Our's is a "diversity" diocese (so it seems) and the girls are often "on the altar" so to speak, in some parishes. But my parish pastor, who celebrates the TLM weekly or more as well as the NO, seems to have a methodology to counteract it.

One recent Sunday I had to attend the Noon NO Mass, which the pastor was serving, and, by coincidence, during the announcements he mentioned that with the end of the school year, there would be a new class forming for the boys who wished to serve at the altar; "or girls, for that matter" he added with a smile. The context is that, de facto, no girls serve on the altar (though there are ladies who serve as readers for the NO), and the boys dress in cassock and surplice!

So, while the girls are free to take the classes, it sounds to me like the boys wouldn't want their sisters around, and vice versa! It wouldn't be cool .

Michael

Posted By: Altar Server

Re: EWTN divine liturgy - 06/22/08 06:15 PM

thats true Micheal and I'm sure you know that tradition of boys serving at the altar was a way to descern a vocation to the priesthood and for some men and boys having girls on the altar is a distraction sometimes I think that the Sacredness of the sanctuary is taken away with people coming and going and in my church the only distintion between the nave and the sanctuary is a set of rounded steps since the church was redone in 02 we now have a rounded altar they took out the altar rail and the taditional three steps leading to the altar table itself but I guess some things change with time.
Posted By: Michael McD

Re: EWTN divine liturgy - 06/22/08 07:09 PM

AS,

In my parish, the pastor has accepted the offer of a member of the parish who is a cabinet maker to add an altar rail back in! The parishioner has been doing hand carvings of saints, who he or someone else then paints, to decorate each of the uprights. It's very beautiful, especially as something done by a local!

Right now, he's working on the altar rail gates, as I understand it.

BTW, nearby is a very large parish, St. Mary's, which just finished a new Church (what they call a "worship space"), which sounds like what you are describing:

St. Mary's Parish

(Scroll down to May 3 pix.)

It's too bad they did the sanctuary the way they did, because the various furnishings (stations of the cross, images of Our Lady, St. Joseph, etc.) seem pretty nice to me (though perhaps a bit too "realistic" for where they have them placed).

Meanwhile, 10 minutes away the Greek Orthodox had their new Church of the Assumption of the Theotokos consecrated by their bishop last October. It's a beautiful, warm and "homey" "worship space" wink :

Kimisis tis Thetokou Parish

Michael
Posted By: Pani Rose

Re: EWTN divine liturgy - 06/22/08 07:42 PM

Just reading what you have posted, I am glad I didn't see it. frown
Posted By: asianpilgrim

Re: EWTN divine liturgy - 06/22/08 07:44 PM

Originally Posted by Michael McD
Originally Posted by Our Lady's slave
Altar Server

whether you like it or not - female Servers are permitted in the RC Church. It is left to each Bishop to decide whether they will permit it in their Diocese.

There are many parishes where boys will not come forward to serve - so either the Priest is on his own - or he has girls.


Our's is a "diversity" diocese (so it seems) and the girls are often "on the altar" so to speak, in some parishes. But my parish pastor, who celebrates the TLM weekly or more as well as the NO, seems to have a methodology to counteract it.

One recent Sunday I had to attend the Noon NO Mass, which the pastor was serving, and, by coincidence, during the announcements he mentioned that with the end of the school year, there would be a new class forming for the boys who wished to serve at the altar; "or girls, for that matter" he added with a smile. The context is that, de facto, no girls serve on the altar (though there are ladies who serve as readers for the NO), and the boys dress in cassock and surplice!

So, while the girls are free to take the classes, it sounds to me like the boys wouldn't want their sisters around, and vice versa! It wouldn't be cool .

Michael



One of the arguments against female altar servers is precisely this: it will create more situations of needless conflict and alienation inside the sanctuary.

Having an "unspoken" rule whereby girls are technically allowed in the sanctuary and yet tacitly discouraged from availing of this permission, will only create dissension and anger among not a few girls and women. Why tell them that they can come in, then work so that they'll remain outside? Consistency is the key. Either they are allowed to serve, or not. Period.

Besides, keeping out girls in this manner -- telling them that they can come but with the unspoken rule that they do so at their peril -- can be kept up only with some amount of subtle or not-so-subtle bullying and other pressure tactics. Do we really need that kind of behavior among the servants of our altars?

Finally, we can be certain that not a few female altar servers, serving frequently at the altar, will eventually think: why can't I be a priest? After all, vocations have been traditionally developed through altar serving. The proponents of female altar servers knew what they were doing in the 1970's and 1980's!

In short, it would have been better if the old liturgical laws on this matter -- affirmed as late as 1980 and 1990 by the Holy See only to reverse it in 1992 -- had been kept. Now that the Holy See has allowed it, we have to rein in the consequences -- a task that can be accomplished only with great difficulty.
Posted By: Michael McD

Re: EWTN divine liturgy - 06/22/08 07:55 PM

I'm not sure why you are worked up about my anecdote. In the parish, it is the children with the "unspoken rule", not the pastor!

Posted By: Altar Server

Re: EWTN divine liturgy - 06/23/08 12:41 AM

My Parish Church has no seating for the congregation behind the altar but they moved the Choir from the choir loft to behind the altar so the people could sit in the choir loft heres the website I'm not sure if there are pics or not but just to add compared to some other churches in our are we have it good

www.ctkkcmo.org
in comparison
http://www.stsabina.org/
and yes the GO church is beautiful I wish our churches could find a way to be Modern and still have traditional architecture ...altar rails ect.
God Bless,
David
P.S if these links don't have links PM me amd let me know I will find some
Posted By: Altar Server

Re: EWTN divine liturgy - 06/23/08 02:37 AM

sorry when I said if these inks don't have links o them i meant pics
God Bless+
David
Posted By: Fr Serge Keleher

Re: EWTN divine liturgy - 06/25/08 06:17 AM

Dear Alexis,

If you are able to get the TIVO on to DVD (ah, the tyrrany of alphabet soup!) I shall be most grateful. Thanks in advance.

Fr. Serge
Posted By: Fr Serge Keleher

Re: EWTN divine liturgy - 06/25/08 06:21 AM

Since the 2012 Eucharistic Congress will be held in Dublin, here is some guidance from over eighty years ago which should be kept in mind in planning the Eastern Catholic components of the event:

“Above all, let us not profane our Liturgy by organizing theatrical performances, or accepting invitations to take part in such exhibitions, in edifices by no means appropriate, mixing several traditions in what frequently becomes a fantastic motley circus of costumes and colours that seems to have no purpose but the amusement of low people.”

Father Cyril Korolevsky, 1927


Y'all come!

Fr. Serge
Posted By: asianpilgrim

Re: EWTN divine liturgy - 06/25/08 08:26 AM

Originally Posted by Serge Keleher
Since the 2012 Eucharistic Congress will be held in Dublin, here is some guidance from over eighty years ago which should be kept in mind in planning the Eastern Catholic components of the event:

“Above all, let us not profane our Liturgy by organizing theatrical performances, or accepting invitations to take part in such exhibitions, in edifices by no means appropriate, mixing several traditions in what frequently becomes a fantastic motley circus of costumes and colours that seems to have no purpose but the amusement of low people.”

Father Cyril Korolevsky, 1927


Y'all come!

Fr. Serge


I've always been under the impression that a lot of my fellow Roman Catholics -- not excluding hierarchs -- still consider the Eastern Catholics to be an amusing sideshow, a nice, exotic diversion that somehow makes up for the drabness of the current liturgical regime in most parishes. (Same applies to how the TLM is seen by a lot of people)
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