I am having a real crises of faith and wish to get advice on which path to follow?
Although christened an RC in infancy, I joined the Orthodox Church back in 2000. I was re baptized in a ROCOR parish after having expressed a desire to join the Church. However after a couple years, due to a number of factors (the least of which was family pressure and RC proselytes) I re entered the Roman Catholic Church. At first I had a desire to transfer to the Byzantine rite, but this was quickly dispelled when I became interested in the Catholic traditionalist (Latin Ma's) movement. Since I have poor vision and therefore cannot drive, I was not able to attend a Latin mass until the end of 2008 and so I just sort of supported traditional Catholicism without actually going to a TLM. When I finally id, it turned out to be a huge disappointment for me and I had many, many problems as a result of my brief participation with it.

I then started having a real spiritual crises considering I had such high hopes for about 7 years in something that I later left disillusioned. Then it occurred to me that, since the Latin rite, wasn't for me then maybe it would be best that I "go East"and try to get back to the Byzantine rite.

However, I then began to seriously re examine the beliefs and practices of the Roman Church and began to have doubts about the authenticity and apostolic claims that the Pope and the RCC makes. It has occurred to me that maybe I should re enter the Orthodox Church. Does anyone know how I would go about this? Would I just go to confession to an Orthodox priest and be brought back into the fold of Orthodoxy? Someone told me that the Orthodox would actually have to rechrismate me? Is this true? Also, I am aware that I could get confession/re chrismation from ay priest but what jurisdiction would I enter when returning to orthodoxy, ROCOR or that of the priest/parish I'm attending?

I've had it really hard lately with both my family and friends when I sort of implied that I might want to become Orthodox again. I was for several years a member of the Internet message board, Fish Eaters Forum? When I recently became somewhat critical of some of the commonly unquestioned (on their anyway) Papal claims and scholastic theology, I was brutally attacked by many of the members who had once been my friends. Some Fishies even went so far as to claim that the Orthodox were not just schismatic from RC eyes but also heretical since Orthodoxy permits divorce and remarriage and does not recognize the new dogmas like the IC as valid. They told me that I would be damned if I left the RC and went OC again. Then they banned me eventually when I questioned how so many of them could claim I needed to be in union and submission to the Pope when many of them are associated with the SSPX who are not in union or submission to him.

I am confused as to what course I should take? Should I leave the RC and try and go BC? Or should I go back to the OC?

Bob

Being totally honest -----------

none of us can suggest where you should go .

This is something you have to discern for yourself after much prayer and deliberation .

You would also be wise to talk with [ note I use 'with ' not 'to' ] priests of both East and West .

Prayers for you on this journey

Bob-

What a broken body we are. I'm so sorry for the experience you had with some individuals on the Fish Eaters Forum. Thank you for you trust in coming here. I hope it will be well placed with us.

I see in your profile, which may be old, that you say you're an "Ex college student". I do not in any way want to diminish your plight, but if you are still in your 20s know how many of us have gone through major spiritual shifts and crises as still young adults. As difficult as this uncertainty is your path is one day at a time and trying to push for a resolution may not be helpful. (Sounds like you already have lots of pushing going on from those in your life who love and care for you, but can't always know what God means for you.)

I believe we have a ECC deacon here who is in Kansas. I'm know it's a big state but perhaps you two can connect. I'm heading now to Divine Liturgy and will hold you in my prayers there tonight.

During this difficult time I hope you can find a way to receive Reconciliation, as needed, and Eucharist as often as you can. We know the graces these offer us. Both the Catholic and Orthodox recognize as valid our sacraments so while you struggle with your discernment I hope you won't deprive yourself of these most precious gifts.

-Marylouise

Your post suggests that you are trying to decide where you should go. Forget about that. Stop Church hopping. For now grow where you are planted. Find a good spiritual father or mother. Learn how to pray and spend time in prayer. Eventually the Lord will lead. He will lead according to His plan in His time - never yours. Make all decisions in prayer in consultation with your spiritual father or mother.

Perhaps you are right about waiting for God to show me the right path to go on. I would like to start out attending a Byzantine Catholic parish. Right now I'm in New Jersey and there are several options for that right around the corner from me. I am seriously thinking about attending a DL at either a Ukrainian parish or a Romanian one (the latter is very small so mabye I would have a better chance of discussing my problems with the priest who might not be too busy considering the number of his small flock.

There is also a Romanian Orthodox parish near the Greek Catholic one that I could stop by one Sunday. It is wonderful that I am able to experience these riches of Eastern liturgical traditions here in NJ. When I'm in Kansas part of the year, there are so few Eastern options and none near me. I'm stuck attending some pretty liberal RC parishes which can really get me down at times.

Thank you all for your advice and prayers.

Bob

Bob:
start by simply accepting where you are able to attend... be that Catholic or Orthodox, Western or Eastern. Pray, and find some stillness if you can.

If you truly are called to be elsewhere, you will eventually figure it out.

Most important, however, is to participate wherever you may be with whatever zezt you can manage, and raise your heart, soul, and voice to the Lord.

Our administrator is absolutely correct. When I was young in my faith, I tried to force the hand of God and be totally reliant on my abilities to do this or that. My pride and lack of humility usually resulted in failure and disappointment. It is impossible for us to allow our Lord to guide our lives if we frustrate His Holy Spirit with our own wills. This was the fate of the rich young man who wished to follow Jesus as His disciple but could not because he was unwilling to give all that he had. We don't know what happened to him after his meeting with our Lord. Perhaps he thought better of his overblown pride and later fell of at the feet of Jesus to repent. Or perhaps he went on to try to find another prophet who cold better meet his needs to remain in the world. We will never know in this lifetime.

People have a habit of trying to find the best parish, the best priest, the best environment to worship in and can never be satisfied. Many fall away because of this. The essential reason why we worship together is to be in communion with our Risen Savior and with each other. I think it a beautiful thing that in the Church of the East worship is not dependent on the flair and charisma of a priest, but the oneness of worship through the sacrament.

As we grow, we will experiences many twists and turns in our faith journey. At times we may be disappointed with flaws of clergy and laity, but part of this journey is to not be influenced negatively by the failings, but to grow in the faithfulness and truth of Jesus Christ.

Just my thoughts

bravo

Bob as a somtime member of the fish eaters forum(wich I have never been active on) I want to apologize and I want you to know that the majority of people on that forum are probably sschismatic and heretical themselves and may the Lord and His Blessed Mother guide you on your journey


In Jesus and Mary

David

David


Please be careful in your use of the word I bolded . It is not your place to describe anyone as that .

"Please be careful in your use of the word I bolded . It is not your place to describe anyone as that ."

Justify that statement in light of Church history, please.

A few comments:

1. I'd like for all posters to try to keep on topic. IMHO Robert seems to be mostly ignoring the advice he has asked for.

2. Angela is correct if she is saying that only a bishop may pronounce someone a heretic. Stuart is also correct in that every member of the Church has the responsibility to defend its theology. We should not use the term 'heretic' lightly. Even if it would be used legitimately to describe a particular theology it usually sheds more heat then light upon a topic. It is much better simply to offer a correct theology and point out the problems with what was offered.

I'll consider the comments on heretics closed in this thread, and ask those who wish to discuss Robert's initial questions.

I don't think that I am ignoring the advice given me. My initial question alos had to do with how the Orthodox would recieve me back into their Church if I were to decide to retunr. I am willing to seriously pray and reflect on whether to go Byzantine or Orthodox. However I am definitly notwanting to stay in the Roman rite.

People have given me advice to consult different priest and that is what I'm planning to do. I've already talked to some RC clergy and they pretty much confirmed what I thought. The RC wants everyone to be RC so you are not going to get too much of an unbiased opinion from them. I can't stand going Roman. My soul feels so empty at their masses (regardless of what form its in). The only time that my soul ever found any type of peace at Church was with the riches of the Eastern DL. I payed over a $100 cab fee to get to an Eastern Church for DL in the past which shows how much it meant to me.

Life is too short to just stay someplace your unhappy and spiritually unfulfilled in.

Very true!

Yea it is. I mean one could use the excuse to just stay where you are and wait for God to show you the way for just about anything. Should someone stay in a bad marriage and just hope that God will somehow change the condition of their spouse? Or if I were stuck in the middle of a desert, should I just sit there and wait for God to get me out or should I try and do my best to walk out to greener pastures?

Sometimes we just have to take the lead in doing something about the bad state our life is in. Mabye this is what God wants us/me to do? I can't say for sure but I can always try to find what I need to sustain me in life.

In the matter of faith, the guiding principle is usually "try to grow where you were planted. If you can't then start looking for a new place to plant.

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Bob-


I didn't see you as ignoring the advice and encouragement here. I've been waiting for an Orthodox member to post, or anyone, an answer to that question you asked. I've assumed none of us who has posted knows that answer, I know I don't.



I've experienced Orthodox who have equally biased opinion. Both camps can be rigid. But there are also priests in both the ECCs and Orthodox churches who are not rigid and who understand that for some this is not an clear choice. And the reality is there are ECs active in Orthodox parishes, and Orthodox active in ECC parishes. I was at an Orthodox parish this past Tues and Wed for the Nativity of St. John the Baptist because my little Byzantine parish had no services. That Orthodox priest/parish warmly welcomes me on these feasts whenever my parish doesn't have the DL. I was at another closer Orthodox church for Pascha because I didn't feel I could safely drive from my distant ECC parish at 3:00a.m. but thought a 10 minute drive at that hour I could handle, and I sure wasn't going to miss out on Pascha DL!

You have seen that thus far none of us has made a push for you to stay with the Catholic church, or not. You eliminated Latin Rite Mass and no one is disputing that. Both Catholic and Orthodox accept one another's sacraments as valid so while you are in New Jersey with ECC and Orthodox options close by get yourself to DL.



Often there is also a deacon who can be another good person to talk with, and maybe a Pani/Presbytera.

Maybe tomorrow some of our faithful Orthodox friends will stop by and know the answer to the specific question you asked. In any case you do have other considerations to discern. I'm sure we're all holding you in our prayers.

-Marylouise
P.S.Do you have access to O&M training for getting to these churches if that is an issue? (My daughter is legally blind and I'm quite familiar with the challenges of getting to new places with bad vision. She uses Paratransit for some things, but it's not a good option for her to get to Mass. For about a year but not now we had someone who could meet her at a bus stop. There are no safe independent crossings for her and her guide dog at major intersections near her parish. It can be frustrating.)

I would advise you to talk to an Orthodox priest. Whether he will want to re-christmate you or not depends on the circumstances, as well as his bishop's policy, but I wouldn't worry about that. Which jurisdiction is a personal choice, and really should be which parish. I assume, however, since you asked, that you have access to more than one, so attend several parishes, then approach the priest at the one at which you are most comfortable.

Bob - Administrator's advice (et al) is wise. See Psalm 37 "3 Trust in the LORD, and do good; so you will dwell in the land, and enjoy security. 4 Take delight in the LORD, and he will give you the desires of your heart. 5 Commit your way to the LORD; trust in him, and he will act." Also Proverbs 3:5,6: "5 Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and do not rely on your own insight. 6 In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths." And my favorite: Psalm 46:10 - "Be still, and know that I am God." He is always faithful to His children.

In Him

Dan

How is the Holy Spirit supposed to guide me if I don't take any initiative on my own? I want to be an Eastern Christian (again) and wish to separate myself as soon as possible, in some way, from the RCC which has caused me a lot of grief.

Orthodoxy holds that she alone has the true faith and constitutes the one, true, visible, Church of JC on Earth. The RC's say the same thing though and they threaten me with a very unpleasing afterlife if I don't stay with them? I'm interested in going to different EC (OC and BC) parishes and talking to priest about these issues. I'm sure that one of them will give me the help I need.

The only real problem I see is my family. They are dead set against me going Orthodox (and not even all that comfortable with the BC's). My father is starting to get on my case about it and he doesn't even go to mass that often. My Mom is also upset since she practices more and has recently had a bone marrow transplant. She credits the RC faith with bringing her through it and says that she will be upset with me if I abandon Rome? This is creating a lot of tension for me. I don't want to upset my mom but I also don't want to deny my conscious in the process.

I remember hearing that the former Byzcath poster, Dr A Roman was going through a similar spiritual crises several years ago and decided to stay BC for his families sake? I wish that I could get his perspective on this?

Bob

Bob,

Salvation is synergistic, which means that it involves both divine and human activity.

For myself . . . I did not find the spiritual sustenance I needed in the Roman Church, and that is why I became an Eastern Catholic.

You must pray and act.

God bless,
Todd

Thanks Todd,
What ECC did you join?

God is the Lord and has revealed Himself to us!


Bob-

I hope you get to Divine Liturgy, to give glory to God and to receive God's mercy. You mentioned you have several options near your home. Sunday Divine Liturgy is likely not the only time you can participate in worship with them. We just had two feasts on weekdays, Nativity of St. John the Baptist, and Sts Peter and Paul, when they possibly had Vigil and Liturgy other than Sunday, and maybe they routinely have Vespers and Vigil. Get out of your head and just go.

Your concerns about your mother's serious health problems are very real and a qualified spiritual director/spiritual father would help you see the place of those concerns in the larger context of your spiritual journey. Meanwhile offer your concerns for your parents up in prayer. Our Lady Theotokos knows everything about the concerns of a mother's heart. Ask for her help.

Blessings- Marylouise

Bob:

Sometimes we think that the Holy Spirit is not at work if WE don't do something. Be assured that the Holy Spirit is alive and well and always at work with you and for you. That being said, sometimes it is the best thing to recite the prayer of Metropolitan Philaret of Moscow and really listen to the words--let them sink in:



This is a prayer for discernment. And it is in surrender that you will find your way. You appear to be trying to force the issue. God will not be forced.

As far as the RCC causing you much grief--

All communities will cause you grief. That is not the reason to move to the East. Moving East should be a conscious decision born of a "pull" toward the theology, spirituality, and liturgy that make up the East's unique experience of the Mystery of God with us. You will never find the perfect community, communion or Apostolic Church. God knows we've all got our share of saints and sinners; Apostles and Judas' in our midst. If I ever left every community that gave me grief, I'd be sitting on some mountain far from every other human being. Families can be your worst enemy--Our Lord tells us so when we become His disciples; parishes are extended families. Clergy can be friends or challenges. So can all of us. Find me a perfect man and I'll show you Christ crucified. We all walk three-legged into the Kingdom.

Speaking of the Kingdom, I heard a good thing to keep in mind about that. I was told there will be three surprises when you walk into Heaven. First, all the people you thought would be there, aren't. Second, all the people you were convinced would never make it, will be. And third, the biggest surprise is that YOU will be there.

In Christ,

BOB

My dear brother Robert,
Please understand that I'm not judging, but request that you read the above comment which you posted. Christ is the same in the Eucharist at a Roman Mass or an EC or Orthodox Divine Liturgy. It's awesome no matter the ritual.

In your opening post you mentioned disillusionment and problems generally regarding the current Mass, the Tridentine and in general with Rome. Let me humbly suggest that you look back and see if the problems were due to biased, uninformed influences and have come to trouble you. Pray for the help of the Holy Spirit to reveal the truth.

Your most important relationship should be with God; not those who are critical of a particular Church or clergy. Try to trust God; He is the same at all apostolic Churches; He is there for you and the Sacraments are the same, gems waiting for you to seek them.

May the Paraclete and His Spouse, our Heavenly Mother comfort you.

Fr Deacon Paul

Robert,

I am sorry that you are struggling to find peace in a church - you will be in my prayers.

If I may, I'd like to make a few comments about what you have said. Note that what I say below is intended in Christian charity, and not intended to offend in any way.

It appears to me that you need to take a step back and allow the Holy Spirit to work in you and stop trying to make things happen on your own. To be blunt, there appears to me some immaturity in your quest for a church that requires you to work with a spiritual director.

For example, in your life you have already been RC, Orthodox, then a traditionalist RC who had never attended a Latin Mass, now back to an Orthodox/EC status. Don't you see the problem with this constant switching? How can anyone find peace in such a situation?

Also, you appear to take too personally the comments and opinions of others. You are offended by Roman Catholics who don't believe you should leave the Roman Catholic Church - but what else would they think? I am sure that you could find many, many Orthodox who would not be happy when you left the Orthodox Church (and I wouldn't blame them). Roman Catholics are Roman Catholic because they believe the RC Church's claims are true - and as such, they believe it is not good for someone's salvation for them to leave that Church. Likewise, Orthodox Christians are Orthodox because they believe the Orthodox Church's claims are true - and as such, they believe it is not good for someone's salvation for them to leave that Church. This is how it should be, and one should not criticize others who believe their Church is true (although one can of course disagree with their conclusions). Ultimately, it does not matter what any of these people think, what matters is that you follow the Lord's calling in your own life.

Finally, you made this statement:


I think this reflects an immaturity on your part. The answer to this question should be obvious to all Christians: yes, one should stay in a "bad marriage" because he or she has made a vow to stay with his or her spouse regardless of whether the marriage is "bad" or not (obviously, cases of abuse are a different situation altogether). Our narcissistic culture will tell you that you should abandon your vows when you are not happy in them. But Christ commands us to be faithful to his commands, even when they are hard or difficult. This is true in a marriage, and it is also true of our church affiliation.

Your constant switching of churches seems to me to reflect a quest for a "perfect" church (much like those who leave their marriages desire a "perfect" spouse). Let me tell you something: if you find a perfect church, they will not let you join, because then it would no longer be perfect.

My own advice is to approach the priest of the parish you are currently attending (it is not clear to me what you are currently attending) and ask him for assistance in becoming a saint. Do not change your current religious affiliation, but strive to be holy in the one you are currently in. If for some reason the Lord is calling you to another church, He will make that clear only after you have settled down and in peace can hear His voice.

May I humbly submit the following scripture quote for thought, I too have been in a like situation, but have found peace...

From James 1;

3 *Knowing that the trying of your faith worketh patience.

4 And patience hath a perfect work: that you may be perfect and entire, deficient in nothing.

5 But if any of you want wisdom, let him ask of God, who giveth to all abundantly, and upbraideth not: and it shall be given him.

6 *But let him ask in faith, nothing wavering: for he that wavereth is like a wave of the sea, that is moved and carried about by the wind.

My humble opinion is if you don't like the role of the Roman Pontiff as it is expressed in the Catholic Church then you should return to the Eastern Orthodox Church. By going to an Eastern Catholic Church one would still be in communion with the Holy See and from what I read you are not sure of the Catholic Churches teaching on the role of the Pope. While the Eastern Catholic theological approach is different than our western Catholic brethern we still recognize the Pope as the head of the Universal Church. If you can except that and only dislike the new Roman Liturgy then maybe a return to the Byzantine Catholic Church is good.

As an Eastern Catholic who at one time was Orthodox (I still consider myself Orthodox but in communion with Rome-my Orthodox brothers and sisters may disagree but that’s how I feel) I found in the Catholic Communion the peace of soul I was looking for. That’s the important thing. If you are having trouble with the RCC I don't see how being an EC would help-since we are members of the Catholic Communion of Churches.

I agree that Church hoping is not good. I myself had that problem when I was Orthodox because I wasn't feeling a since of peace or connection with the Church.(I am also still in my 20's and was going through much growth and soul searching that many young people do) I only felt that when I came into communion with the Catholic Church. Perhaps it is the same for you but in the opposite. Regardless of what you do I suggest staying put and struggling in the Church you ultimately decide is where God is leading you. So if it is Orthodox stay Orthodox and struggle or if it is EC or RCC stay and struggle. It is hard to sturggle but it is what we are called to do- pick up our Cross and struggle.

I wish you the best of luck and also my poor prayers.

Bob,
I am a bit late to the thread. But here goes anyway. First I am Orthodox. Clearly you are in the throws of what we Orthodox call spiritual warfare. Much of what has been written above strikes me as sound advice. That said I will give you some concrete suggestions.

1. Take a week (or more if you can swing the time) and spend it in a good monastery. Monasteries are spiritual hospitals. They are where we go when we realize that we are nose deep and sinking.

2. Seek a spiritual father at the monastery. If you need some advice on where to go contact me privately.

3. Fast to the best of your ability.

4. Stop worrying about theology and start praying! Pray often... at least 3x a day. Don't spend time reading doctrinal arguments and debates online. Read the lives of the saints.

5. Take a deep breath. Unless you have a fatal illness there is no need to rush into things one way or the other.

Rushing sounds like it might have been a good part of the problem. Acting precipitously and without proper discernment can create problems down the road. I spent a quarter century attending Orthodox churches before I finally said it was time and swam the Bosporus. Church hopping is not healthy. That said, if where you are now is causing you spiritual torment then by all means switch parishes or even rites.

Finally you ask what would be involved in reverting to Holy Orthodoxy. The answer is that it will depend on a number of different factors. At a minimum you would have to go to confession. You will most likely have to be re-Chrismated and expressly renounce any non-Orthodox beliefs or doctrines which you may have subscribed to. You may be suspended from the sacraments for a period of time before being readmitted to Holy Communion. All of this would be resolved by the priest receiving you back in consultation with the bishop.

For now, fast and pray and find a good monastery to spend some time in.

Under the mercy,
John

Robert,

A "disciple" is one who seeks to follow a certain rule of life inspired by the Gospel. Both East and West have their paths of discipleship, but only one Lord.

I would recommend following the advice of seeking the counsel of your current pastor or a good spiritual father/director. This mental and emotional agitation you are suffering which leads to a change of affiliation has its roots in something undeveloped in your spiritual walk with Christ.

Also, take a year and prayerfully read the Catechism of the Catholic Church. Don't read it simply as a "Catechism" or a "Compendium of Belief." Instead, read it as a spiritual guide (since all doctrine has the purpose of leading us closer to Christ and thus to our salvation in Christ) that comes from the heart of the Church. Set aside the works of polemics which try to prove this or that particular position. Simply "listen" which is the proper posture of any disciple and then "do" by putting into practice what you have received in your reading. You may also want to include in this "lectio divina" (sacred reading) a reading of the daily Gospel for the Mass in your prayer.

Here is a guide for doing Lectio Divina:

The Spiritual Art of Lectio Divina [valyermo.com]

Finally, since you are at present in the Latin Church, acquire a copy of the Divine Office (Even the one volume "Christian Prayer"...or you can pray the four-volume set) and begin praying according to the spirit of the Church where you are. Get a couple of friends together at your parish and immerse yourself in the Divine Praises. To reduce the Latin Church to the experience of the Mass is to fail to plumb her true depths which are found daily in the prayers of the Divine Office.

Commit yourself to a year of this kind of discipline to develop your interior walk with Christ:

- spiritual direction and regular reception of the Sacraments in the Latin Church. Don't seek an experience - seek Christ for a year in the garden where you are currently planted.

- daily praying the Catechism, setting aside all polemics and internal debate. Look for Christ speaking to you personally through this document.

- praying the Divine Office daily (at least part of it with others, the Office of Readings is especially beautiful). Discover Christ in the prayer of the Psalms and the Latin Church's full liturgical cycle of prayer.

Forgive me any presumption in offering this advice. But the mind becomes the spiritual playhouse of the devil when it is not brought under the discipline of regular practices fed by the Word of God - a rule or daily plan of life - and it leads the heart down many paths...ultimately to the rejection of Christ Himself! Bloom in the soil and the garden where you are now planted and see how Christ leads you.

In ICXC,

Fr. Deacon Daniel

I will only add on a personal note that after following my own spiritual program for a while on my own and then with a spiritual father (who was a Greek-Catholic priest), it became abundantly clear over time that I wanted to follow Christ as a Greek-Catholic. I do not in any way regret either that decision or my period of discernment.

God bless,

Fr. Deacon Daniel

Although I appreciate your advice, I just want to change my religion, not become a monk. I have real issues with some of the beleifs and practices of Roman Catholicsm, including the view on marriage and sex as solely for procreation. The beleif in Purgatory, debt owed for sins already forgiven, and the merits of the saints. The DL really makes a big spiritual impression on me and gives me peace.

I really have no connection to any priest but still go to the NO mass every Sunday. I'm sure if they talked to me they would try to get me to stay RC (I understand that this is their job so I don't fault them for trying). My real problems with RC started when a priest told me what the Church required for someone to be made a saint. I was shocked and had a lot of psychological troubles after that. A lot of the things he listed such as

1. Did you eat and drink only what is necessary to sustain yourself
2. Was your bed too comfortable and did you only sleep as much as was necessary to sustain yourself.
3. Did you mortify your flesh

When I realized that I was no where near doing stuff liek this and had no real interest in doing them then I started to have problems. I thought that God would hate and punish me for not wanting to be live a dour, ascetic, lifestyle. The whole thing messed me up so bad. All I want is to try and be a good person (which I daily struggle to do). This priest hurt me big time. He also said that it was an occasion of sin to date a girl or even be alone with an unmarried women. I kept feeling that God was trying to command me to go back to this priest and that he would visit all kinds of punishments on me for not doing so.

The Orthodox have priest like this too but they are, on a whole, much nicer and they don't scream and threaten punishemnt like traditional RC's do.

Robert,

For the sake of clarification, the Catholic Church does not say that marriage and sex is ONLY for procreation. A cursory reading of the major magisterial documents and pastoral letters would reveal this. Sex is sacramental and has two primary meanings in marriage: generative (life giving) and unitive (love giving).

Secondly, a belief in "purgatory" (the mystery of our purification at/after death) need not be reduced to what you present here.

Thirdly, I'm not sure of the source this priest was using for "becoming a saint." Certainly not all priests (in any jurisdiction) are perfect or offer the best advice in these matters. I do not fault you at all for asking it or for the priest's inadequate response. But one has to be discerning with where one goes for such advice. And in certain traditional circles, there is still some residual (and at times blatantly heretical) Jansenism, which poisons so much of the spirit. Proper Christian asceticism is not the same as puritanism/jansenism. christian asceticism affirms the goodness of created being (the body, sexuality, food, etc) whereas puritanism/Jansenism deny the goodness of created being and wrongfully identify the Pauline understanding of the "flesh" with the body.

Coupled with all this Jansenism often follows an obsessive scrupulosity, which paralyzes the heart and mind, fixating on avoiding vice and not on growth in virtue and holiness. Eventually one sees sins where no sins exist.

Such rigorism also exists in the East, but in different forms and in various groups.

I'm glad the DL makes an impression on you and gives you peace. It does the same for me as well!

What is clear, though, is that you have not been given an authentic experience of the spiritual richness of the Latin Catholic West, which is not uncommon and which is also most unfortunate.

I pray that God gives you the wisdom and guidance you need to make the right decision.

God bless!

That is not what the RCC teaches--it teaches that "unitive" end of sexual union cannot be properly fulfilled if the procreative end is deliberately blocked.


Most of us ECs have some problem with these doctrines--as they are typically presented--as well. The Union of Brest allowed us "not to discuss" such matters, which can be taken to imply that other Catholics might do the same.


All I can say here is that this priest certainly isn't typical of RC priests--even "traditional" ones. If someone is at the point in his or her spiritual life where it is good to begin practicing the degree of mortification this priest is describing, this needs to be discerned together with an experienced priest or spiritual advisor. The Holy Spirit may be calling a soul to do all these things--or none of them. To say that this is what the Church "requires" for someone to become a saint is irresponsible and a sign of ignorance.


Well, dating certainly can be an occasion of sin, but that is not the same as saying it is an occasion of sin. As for being "alone" with a person of the opposite sex, there are so many different possible circumstances that can fit this category as to render it practically meaningless. The key is to understand chasitiy as something that flows naturally from charity, not as a series of prescriptions and prohibitions.


Peace,
Deacon Richard

Deacon Richard:

From what Robert describes and that you have responded to, I'd have to ask if he was involved with some fringe group and not the Church. I've been around for a long time and NEVER heard such advice from any of my spiritual fathers or confessors. I have heard of some groups in the Church that border on cults, but that's a whole different story, too.

In Christ,

BOB

Ditto. It sounds like a Saturday Night Live caricature. We only have Robert's side of the story but it's certainly very bizarre to say the least.

Were I aware of a priest who put himself out as a spiritual director/catechist and was talking like this I would be contacting the episcopal vicar for priests of the diocese. There are certainly parish priests out there who have zero pastoral skills, sadly, but nobody should be getting spiritual direction, or any other counseling from them. Having no pastoral skills and putting out wild "teachings" are two different things, however.

Robert-


I'm so glad to hear that you are getting to Mass weekly to give glory to God and to receive God's mercy in communion with His people. It has sounded like you were not going to Mass or Divine Liturgy anywhere.

I cannot picture any of the RC priests I've had as pastors (and one recent year when we were without a parish priest and we had more than a dozen priests taking turns celebrating Mass with us and hearing our confessions during those many months) seeing it as their role to talk someone into remaining a Roman Rite Catholic. You don't bully people into a deeper communion with our Lord. There's a difference between being held accountable in spiritual direction and being bullied. I can imagine a good spiritual director giving the kind of advice folks have given here. (You do clearly have seriously distorted ideas about the teachings of the RC/Latin Church, as several folks here have indicated.)

Given the issues you have had with both Catholic and Orthodox priests perhaps you'd do better with a female spiritual director. There are excellent women both in Catholic and Orthodox communities very capable as spiritual directors.

John mentioned that good monasteries are spiritual hospitals. Indeed! They're a good place to contact about a local spiritual director. A qualified spiritual director will also recognize when there are mental health issues that need the added care from someone with those skills. Given the various ways you have felt deeply harmed by clergy you may need that kind of help also. A qualified spiritual director could help you clarify that.

Under His mercy- Mary Louise

Robert:

Christ is in our midst!!

You seem to be scrambling traditionalist priests with the ones formed since Vatican II. I have had contact with dozesns of clergy in dioceses all over my own state and have never run into a "fire and brimstone" man in over 40 years. Most are really laid back and have been trained to allow people to talk, to struggle, and to make mistakes. The whole attitude is one of welcoming and reconciliation. If you've been involved with the sects that seeme to be Catholic you might find this because many of their members are filled with a lot of anger over the direction the Holy Spriit has lead the Church in the last two generations. I fear you've been mislead by some of these fringe characters and they have done spiritual damage to you.

In Christ,

BOB

Again, Robert needs to find and meet with a good spiritual father (or mother). His issues are not in deciding between Catholicism & Orthodoxy (quality of the Liturgy, questions on marriage, purgatory, other specific issues, etc.) but are quite different. His discussion of those issues here keep him (maybe purposefully) from addressing the real issues with his spiritual father. The answers given here will not matter, as he will find reason to reject everything. We should all advise him to meet with his spiritual father and leave it at that, otherwise we help lead him astray.

This priest was with the FSSP and stationed in the Kansas City area. I left his community after his last sermon but, to my knowledge, he is still the pastor there. He was affiliated with the RCC archdiocese and his masses were licit. The local clergy seem content to let him be so that he can act a s a sort of "dust bin" to collect up all the laity they see as troublesome (I'm guessing). I have talked to numerous priest since my attendance there and they were all in complete agreement that he was off the wall in his teachings.

It was a real shock for me to encounter him as well. For years I had wanted to go to a TLM but, when I finally did, it shocked me to hear what was going on. When I tried to just passivly bring my complants up to some of his flock, they acted as if I was the one with problems. I was really afraid that I was involved with some type of cult by the way the priest and his people were acting. The nightmare of what I experienced is still with me unofrtunatly and it really, really messed my mind up.

It really shocks me that the local RC archdiocese would allow this FSSP cult to exist in their midst and not even care about what was going on. They know, believe me, they know about this.

I too had problems with some of the things you mentioned- Purgatory especially. After speaking with an Eastern Catholic priest on this I felt much more comftrable. I would suggest speaking with an Eastern Catholic Priest.

I don't think the FSSP are a "cult". In San Diego we have a parish served by their clergy and I have a friend who is the organ player there. I have read an article written by a FSSP priest speaking on the liturgical importance of traditional forms of worshi[ and he speaksof the Eastern Liturgies in a positive light. I don't think we can judge a priestly society on one bad apple. I pray for God to grant you peace and enlightenment.

Thanks. Please pray for my peace of my mind.