www.byzcath.org

Filioque text addition (not theology)

Posted By: mardukm

Filioque text addition (not theology) - 10/16/09 12:34 AM

I have often heard that Eastern and Oriental Catholics added filioque to their Creed to "fit in" with the predominantly Latin environment in which they found themselves, especially in the Western countries.

I am wondering --- what about the Churches in the mother countries (i.e., not in the Western countries)? Was filioque added in the Liturgies there?

I asked this question in CAF, but have not gotten any responses. I suspect the EC and OC regulars there live in Western countries, and don't have the info to answer.

Blessings
Posted By: Prester John

Re: Filioque text addition (not theology) - 10/16/09 01:00 AM

An excellent question.
Posted By: Otsheylnik

Re: Filioque text addition (not theology) - 10/16/09 01:13 AM

I don't believe where it was used it was used out of choice, but reflected what was written in the liturgical books. The famous book detailing all the Liturgies of the Eastern Churches seen here

http://www.librarything.com/work/1692870

states for each riet whether the filioque is said in the creed or not, and each rite it depicts is performed according to the official catholic books of its era. In the UGCC for example it used to be policy that the filioque was said and liturgical books reflected this. It is only recently that it was dropped (I can't remember when, but in the last decade - there was an article on www.catholicukes.org.au for a while about this - it may still be there in the archives somewhere).
Posted By: DTBrown

Re: Filioque text addition (not theology) - 10/16/09 04:12 AM

It's my understanding that all Eastern Catholic liturgies added the Filioque. Use of the Filioque used to be deemed necessary to the Catholic faith. The Melkites were the first to drop it. Early editions of Melkite prayer books (pre-Vatican II) contained the Filioque.

On this subject. The Catholic Church in Greece (Roman Rite) does not use the Filioque in the Roman Rite Mass in Greek. This is also a post-Vatican II development.
Posted By: Matta

Re: Filioque text addition (not theology) - 10/16/09 08:28 PM

Mardukm,
the Melkites didn't add the filioque to "fit in"--they were bullied into it. There was such great unrest against it that the Church nearly left communion.
The Roman Catholic Church then had a rather bizarre understanding of ecclesiology!
Posted By: Otsheylnik

Re: Filioque text addition (not theology) - 10/17/09 10:44 AM

mardkum, this is not correct. The russian rite NEVER had it in. There are a number of others that never had it in there - I can't remember all of them off the top of my head. I don't believe that Grotto Ferrata ever said it, and interestingly the book I cited above has a section on the Greek (Byzantine) rite which is seperate from the melkite section, and the Greeks do not say it according to that source. It is important to note that though it is commonly said that the melkites represent the greek rite, it is not totally true; they are antiochene more than anything else, and do not preserve some Greek traditions.

Grotta Ferrata, and a few parishes around Greece are probably the most "Greek" as opposed to melkite that you will find these days in the RCC.
Posted By: Otsheylnik

Re: Filioque text addition (not theology) - 10/17/09 10:46 AM

Off the top of my head I think those rites descended from the Nestorian tradition never used the filioque.
Posted By: Michael_Thoma

Re: Filioque text addition (not theology) - 10/18/09 12:39 PM

The Syro-Malankara Church has never included it.
Posted By: StuartK

Re: Filioque text addition (not theology) - 10/18/09 01:31 PM

Do many of the Catholic Churches descended from the Oriental Orthodox and the Church of the East even use the Creed in their liturgy? I believe that it only became a standing part of the Byzantine Divine Liturgy in the sixth century. If the Creed is not used in the Liturgy, then it doesn't have the high profile that caused many of the Greek Catholic Churches to being adding the Filioque, in order to be "more Catholic". Out of sight, out of mind.
Posted By: DTBrown

Re: Filioque text addition (not theology) - 10/18/09 09:50 PM

I need to moderate my answer from earlier in the thread.

I was checking the book "Eastern Catholic Worship" (1945) and found this quote on page 33:

Quote
Eastern Catholics are not bound (though some do) to recite the clause "And from the Son" (of course they hold the theological truth that it represents). The words are not included in the creed in the official liturgical books published in Rome.


I have seen older Ukrainian, Melkite and Ruthenian texts with the filioque in the Creed. The Melkites and the Ruthenians have removed it. As far as I know, some Ukrainian parishes do not include it and most still do.

Just wondering: does anyone know if other Catholics of the Roman Rite recite the Creed without the filioque besides those in Greece? What about Roman Rite Catholics in Russia?
Posted By: StuartK

Re: Filioque text addition (not theology) - 10/18/09 10:35 PM

USCCB has resolved to remove it from vernacular celebrations of the Mass, but is working out how to do this.
Posted By: DTBrown

Re: Filioque text addition (not theology) - 10/18/09 11:01 PM

Wow. I didn't realize that the USCCB had resolved to do that. Very interesting.
Posted By: StuartK

Re: Filioque text addition (not theology) - 10/18/09 11:07 PM

The Ruthenian Churches (i.e., the Ukrainians and the Carpatho-Rusyn) were themselves responsible for the insertion of the Filioque into the Creed as used in their Churches. It was one of many examples of self-mutilation resulting from the Synod of Zamosc. It is interesting that the 1913 Catholic Encyclopedia refers to this change as unnecessary, and notes that the Melkites, the Romanians and the Italo-Greeks never implemented them. Thus, if either the Melkites or the Romanian Greek Catholics were using the Filioque in this country, it must have been a local development, perhaps under pressure from the majority Latin Church, or in blind imitation of the already-established Ruthenians.
Posted By: Michael_Thoma

Re: Filioque text addition (not theology) - 10/20/09 03:29 AM

Originally Posted by StuartK
Do many of the Catholic Churches descended from the Oriental Orthodox and the Church of the East even use the Creed in their liturgy? I believe that it only became a standing part of the Byzantine Divine Liturgy in the sixth century. If the Creed is not used in the Liturgy, then it doesn't have the high profile that caused many of the Greek Catholic Churches to being adding the Filioque, in order to be "more Catholic". Out of sight, out of mind.


All of the Syriac Churches use the Creed - in the Holy Qurbono of St. James it is placed after the Trinitarian Blessing of the Censer. The Armenian version of the Creed is slightly different than those of any other Church (which begs the question, why do the Latins always get hassled by certain quarters in Eastern Orthodoxy regarding their 'clarification', but the Armenian Apostolic Church not?)
Posted By: mardukm

Re: Filioque text addition (not theology) - 10/20/09 09:29 AM

Copts also do not recite the entire Creed depending on the Liturgical Season.

Blessings.

P.S. Thank you for everyone's responses
Posted By: mardukm

Re: Filioque text addition (not theology) - 10/20/09 10:12 AM

Dear brother DTBrown,

Originally Posted by DTBrown
Wow. I didn't realize that the USCCB had resolved to do that. Very interesting.

Unless brother StuartK can cite any other source, I think he is giving his opinion based on the North American Catholic-Orthodox consultation on filioque in the 1990's, where the USCCB reps agreed that removing filioque would be beneficial for ecumenism.

But you have to understand that national episcopal conferences in the Latin Church do not function in the same way that national Synods function in the Eastern and Oriental Churches. Unlike Synods, episcopal conferences (in the Latin Church) have no inherent legislative, judicial or executive power. They have a purely consultative role in the life of the local Church.

I don't know if they have ever submitted such a request to the appropriate curial Congregation, or if they have, if there was ever a response. Though reconciliation with the Orthodox is on the top of the current Holy Father's list of "to do" things, I wonder what effect it will have for ecumenism efforts with confessional Protestants, which represent a much larger constituency in the Western countries than the Orthodox. IIRC, EO-Anglican dialogues on the matter have been fruitless.

Blessings
Posted By: StuartK

Re: Filioque text addition (not theology) - 10/20/09 01:01 PM

Quote
Unless brother StuartK can cite any other source, I think he is giving his opinion based on the North American Catholic-Orthodox consultation on filioque in the 1990's, where the USCCB reps agreed that removing filioque would be beneficial for ecumenism.


I heard it from a priest who is a secretary at the USCCB, who said it in the presence of a second priest who is also a member of this forum. The issue is now pastoral preparation of the faithful for the removal of the offending clause.

I get tired of having my veracity questioned, constantly.
© 2019 The Byzantine Forum