www.byzcath.org

Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox?

Posted By: ConstantineTG

Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 05/21/12 05:02 AM

Care to share? Why remain Eastern Catholic and not become Orthodox? What made you make this choice?
Posted By: haydukovich

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 05/21/12 05:33 AM

From my current viewpoint - there is no reason to remain Eastern Catholic.

Unless someone can convince me otherwise - I am considering converting from Eastern Catholic to Orthodoxy - I do not see the advantages to practicing an Eastern religion under the heavy hand of Latinization. I am currently waiting for 1 year to make sure I'm not just jumping ship. I also wonder if I am jumping ship - am I jumping ship because it is going to sink?

I would like to hear good reasons why I should remain Eastern Catholic from others.

Are you Orthodox or Eastern Catholic?

John

p.s. I love the Pope - but I love the Pope as The Patriarch of Rome

Posted By: HeavenlyBlack

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 05/21/12 06:17 AM

I was originally Roman Catholic but had considered Orthodoxy beforehand and found that Byzantine Catholicism worked better for me (and was tired of bad liturgy and the unhealthy atmosphere going around) and since I believe that the Papacy makes logical sense and is a unique identifier that the Orthodox lack but was there from the beginning, I stay Catholic. I personally think it's great to have someone to put their foot down - I've noticed varying opinions on some more important things among the Orthodox that just *cannot* be solved with their current ecclesiology. Of course, having someone demand order can only work so well when others don't listen! But still... both sides acknowledge the Bishop of Rome's importance, and I can't bring myself to acknowledge that the Lord would let the 1st millennium's court of appeal go into heresy. Just doesn't make sense to me.
Posted By: HeavenlyBlack

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 05/21/12 06:20 AM

Yes, the waves might be a bit more still on the other side of the pool, but consider this: if the Catholic communion is the true Church, then wouldn't it make sense for us to have the most problems? I mean, the Devil would naturally be up our wazoo perpetually. Look at the Church before the Great Schism - was it a peaceful time? No! It was just as nuts as now! wink
Posted By: ConstantineTG

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 05/21/12 06:35 AM

Originally Posted by HeavenlyBlack
Yes, the waves might be a bit more still on the other side of the pool, but consider this: if the Catholic communion is the true Church, then wouldn't it make sense for us to have the most problems? I mean, the Devil would naturally be up our wazoo perpetually. Look at the Church before the Great Schism - was it a peaceful time? No! It was just as nuts as now! wink


If people are becoming Orthodox thinking they do not have problems, well, they're in for a rude awakening. No Church on earth is free from problems. The very nature where the Church is, a world that still feels the effects of sin and death, means that nothing here is perfect.
Posted By: Yuhannon

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 05/21/12 06:55 AM

Originally Posted by ConstantineTG
Care to share? Why remain Eastern Catholic and not become Orthodox? What made you make this choice?


Shlomo Aho (Brother) Constantine,

I would like to point out that your question is based on a number of false premisses. They are:

1) Eastern Catholics all belong to the Byzantine Tradition. I know that you did not mean to come across this way but that is how your question reads.
A) For those of us who do not follow the Byzantine Tradition, if we converted to our counterparts we would then have to follow a heretical sect since there are NO non-Byzantine Eastern Orthodox Churches.
B) Further, in my case (I am Maronite) there is no direct Oriental Orthodox counterpart to my Church.

2) Your question is to open ended since you do not list what type of Orthodoxy one should convert to (Eastern or Oriental). To help add to the confussion, even though the Church of the East does not list itself as "Orthodox" that Church too should be listed since your question is so open ended.

Since liturgy is an important part of "Orthodoxy"; Eastern Orthodoxy and the Church of the East are both the most restrictive Churches for this since they only have have "one" Liturgical Holy Tradition that they use.

For me this is an important part of why I am Eastern Catholic. Catholicism encompasses all legitimate Holy Liturgical Traditions.

3) Even though I too resent the "Colonical Office", I feel that the only way to change the Church is by being an active member inside of it. For others it is too much and they convert out, but I do not feel that it would productive for me to do such. I will add to this, but I have to go.

Fush BaShlomo,
Yuhannon
Posted By: ConstantineTG

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 05/21/12 07:34 AM

Originally Posted by Yuhannon

Shlomo Aho (Brother) Constantine,

I would like to point out that your question is based on a number of false premisses. They are:

1) Eastern Catholics all belong to the Byzantine Tradition. I know that you did not mean to come across this way but that is how your question reads.
A) For those of us who do not follow the Byzantine Tradition, if we converted to our counterparts we would then have to follow a heretical sect since there are NO non-Byzantine Eastern Orthodox Churches.


I never said "Eastern Orthodox", I just said "Orthodox". I do know that the "different kinds of Orthodox", so to speak. The Oriental Orthodox are Orthodox, although not in communion with the Chalcedonian Orthodox.

Originally Posted by Yuhannon

B) Further, in my case (I am Maronite) there is no direct Oriental Orthodox counterpart to my Church.


Yes, I know. The Church there is no counterpart, but it does, by Catholic viewpoint, belong to a Liturgical tradition shared by other Churches that have Orthodox counterparts. Therefore you can still choose to become Orthodox in the same tradition, albeit another Church.

Originally Posted by Yuhannon

2) Your question is to open ended since you do not list what type of Orthodoxy one should convert to (Eastern or Oriental). To help add to the confussion, even though the Church of the East does not list itself as "Orthodox" that Church too should be listed since your question is so open ended.


To me it doesn't matter which one. If one felt their faith is better served being in the Catholic side of their tradition, I want to know why they made that choice over being on the Orthodox side.

Originally Posted by Yuhannon

Since liturgy is an important part of "Orthodoxy"; Eastern Orthodoxy and the Church of the East are both the most restrictive Churches for this since they only have have "one" Liturgical Holy Tradition that they use.

For me this is an important part of why I am Eastern Catholic. Catholicism encompasses all legitimate Holy Liturgical Traditions.


Yet we hear complaints from Eastern Catholics that the Liturgical traditions are not as faithful and as authentic as they are on the Orthodox counterparts.

Originally Posted by Yuhannon

3) Even though I too resent the "Colonical Office", I feel that the only way to change the Church is by being an active member inside of it. For others it is too much and they convert out, but I do not feel that it would productive for me to do such. I will add to this, but I have to go.


I do believe in this too. However, sometimes I wonder how much my presence within the Church is actually changing it.
Posted By: StuartK

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 05/21/12 01:00 PM

The reasons I gave myself when I was baptized sixteen years ago on Pentecost Sunday seem unconvincing to me today. All I can say is this is where God intended me to be, and here is where I will stay until He tells me to go elsewhere.
Posted By: Hope & Memory

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 05/21/12 03:50 PM

Because when I asked the Lord in prayer to answer this same question for me, He gave me this, via Stephen Ray:

John 21:10-11 Jesus said, 'Bring some of the fish you have just caught. Simon Peter went aboard and dragged the net ashore, full of big fish, one hundred and fifty-three of them; and in spite of there being so many the net was not broken.

The number 153 represents, according to some, the number of nations in the world at the time. So it is Peter who, by the Lord's command, drags the nations to the shore BY HIMSELF in a net that is not torn. To me, this means that it will be the person in the Chair of Peter who drags all the nations to the Kingdom in unity.
Posted By: haydukovich

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 05/21/12 04:24 PM

Stuart

What were the reasons you gave yourself.

How have they changed.

John
Posted By: Alice

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 05/21/12 07:11 PM

Originally Posted by HeavenlyBlack
Yes, the waves might be a bit more still on the other side of the pool, but consider this: if the Catholic communion is the true Church, then wouldn't it make sense for us to have the most problems? I mean, the Devil would naturally be up our wazoo perpetually. Look at the Church before the Great Schism - was it a peaceful time? No! It was just as nuts as now! wink


Hmmm...'true church'--now there is a loaded phrase used to attack and counter attack.

How can either side of the cultural divide be the 'true church' when one bishop (albeit the acknowleged seat of the 'first among equals') has gone it alone, and the remaining bishops have gone it alone without him?!?

One might say that the latter have adhered to traditions more closely and genuinely (the Orthodox) and truly they have.

The other side might say that as seat of Peter they have the right to have changed traditions, but I don't know if that is as convincing as the prior.

My final conclusion: Neither is the true church, but are equal and broken parts of the first original true Church of Christ.

As for where one should be, I think that is between him and God, and I don't think that God takes sides (either in this world or in Heaven) other than knowing what is best for the individual (in this world) in taking into account his or her overall picture (spirituality, family, culture, tradition, understanding, approach, etc.)

Peace,
Alice

Posted By: RussianCath

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 05/21/12 07:27 PM

Dear John,
Glory be to Jesus Christ!

I also for a time seriously considered joining the "Orthodox side" of the fence, but after much study, and prayer, realized that it would be a bad move.

For all the problems with Latinization in the Eastern Catholic Churches (and it IS a problem that needs MORE attention), you won't escape similar, and other-worse-problems in Orthodoxy:

1. Just look historically: Hellenization, Russification, etc...whoever becomes the "big guy" in Orthodoxy, a powerful patriarchate, tries to impose their rites, customs, language, etc...on other, smaller, Orthodox Churches. Greeks did it to Syrians, Bulgarians, etc... Russians did it/do it to the Georgians, Ukrainians, etc... Look at Moscow Patriarchate today with the Ukrainian Church(MP)-the daughter ruling the mother!-some just couldn't take it anymore and broke communion-Kyiv Patriarchate, Ukrainian Autocephalous, etc... Basically, "Latinization" eastern style! We can't run but should fight where we are in our parishes for a return to tradition, and, Rome actually supports this today!-at least on paper.

2. Latinization bothers you...me to. But how about contraception, in-vitro fertilization, divorce & remarriage w/communion, artificial insemination, fertility drugs, etc... all receive open approval or quiet acceptance among Orthodox today-Moscow Patriarchate approves condom use, despite it's "war on secularization"!(yea, that'll help!)-through "oikonomia", of course. So, would you be comfortable joining a Church which approves such immoral practices? (and I bow LOW before Orthodox bishops who do not accept such things-there ARE some left). As bad as Rome is, and as corrupt as some clergy are, at least these immoral practices are still officially condemned.

3. Roman tyranny over the Eastern Catholic Churches bother you, again, me to. But what is worse, by a Pope or by the state? Byzantine depotism unfitted Eastern Christians to resist Tsarist, Turkish and Communist tyranny-open terror, yes, but subordination to the state and state dominated churches are accepted and defended. Remember Peter the Great abolishing the Patriarchate of Moscow to replace it with the "holy governing synod"-totally uncanonical, unjust, etc...yet all the other patriarchs APPROVED-IT-as a "brother"! What happened when Metropolitan Sergius held his Soviet "synod"?-approval by all the other Orthodox patriarchs-they all agreed with "adaptation to atheism"!
Again, we need to stay where we are and fight for our rights.

4. Do think the primacy of Rome is merely honorific, a canonical arrangement, or more than that? Rome HAS gone too far in exaggerating the power of it's primacy-but something purely "honorific" is nonsense. Even the head of a rotary club has SOME authority over the others, otherwise, nothing would get done! Would you accept idea of a "purely honorific" primacy?-and look at the chaos among the Orthodox today who do not have the primacy-they can't even agree who is canonical, let alone major moral issues threatening the Christian lives of the faithful today! At least Rome gives SOME stability!

5. Rebaptism-"the Church was filling an empty vessel-in extreme cases even bestowing the priesthood and all aspects of grace by Chrismation and vesting..."-this is a quote I got from an Orthodox bishop. Some Orthodox do not believe this today, but it is still considered the normal teaching of Orthodoxy. Are you willing to accept that you were never really baptized, have no grace, the sacraments you have gone to for years were/are invalid, etc... Rome, horrible Rome, on the other hand, does not teach this, but that even heretics can have valid sacraments and grace-and this is supported historically, theologically, by the miracles, (the plain evidence)throughout the ages!

Rome has lots of problems, so does Orthodoxy. Both sides need to clean house and fix the corruption, false teachings, modernism, etc... that are found in themselves. Jumping from on side to the other will not solve anything-before long one finds the same errors, only in different forms, on the other side. An old monk I know told me about his experience going from Catholic to Orthodox back to Catholic. He saw all the problems in the Catholic Church, fled, went to Orthodoxy, found the same errors in different forms there, and worse, (acceptance of immorality, contraception, as one example-and he asked them to their faces if these things were acceptable, and they said YES-he spoke to bishops), so, he came back to the Catholic Church and began fighting the problems he found therein.
So, in my humble opinion we need to stay put and fight for the truth of Christ where we are, and as we try to clean house, encourage our Orthodox brothers to do the same on their side, so that someday, mabey, we can be reunited. Don't jump ship. Don't you see that you are "Orthodox" already?-"Orthodoxy"-right belief. You ARE in Christ's Church.
My two cents. God Bless you and be assured of my prayers! Please pray for me!

Alexis
Posted By: haydukovich

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 05/21/12 07:37 PM

RussianCath.

Points well taken. I will research those

an article I ran across

http://www.impantokratoros.gr/PaulBallaster_Convolier.en.aspx

The author (a former franciscan - turned orthodox) claiming that the Latin Church is embroiled in Monarchy of the Pope and total submission to the monarch

Thank you brothers and sisters for responding -

I seek THE TRUTH - no matter where that leads me

If the THE TRUTH is in the Latin Church that is where I will reside. If THE TRUTH is in an Orthodox church - so be it.

The only problem with THE TRUTH (as Stuart points out) is that we THINK ... and our thinking may change while THE TRUTH does not (or does it)

John
Posted By: ConstantineTG

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 05/21/12 08:18 PM

RussianCath, good points. However, one of the concerns I have that lead to this question is that I do find the expression of the Eastern faith lacking in the Eastern Catholic Church. At least where I am. I of course cannot speak for others. So far my experience is a typical Latinized spirituality, a "Roman Catholic parish with an Eastern Liturgy". I'm not pretending that the Orthodox Church is perfect, even before you came up with your list. I am looking for a faithful expression of the Orthodox faith, and if I have to trade one set of problems for another to get that, I might just do it.
Posted By: Slavophile

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 05/21/12 08:28 PM

Originally Posted by Alice

Hmmm...'true church'--now there is a loaded phrase used to attack and counter attack.


I agree, Alice. I actually hate that term as used in polemics.

In specific answer to the question, though, I am not especially bothered, except that communion with the Bishop of Rome is of great importance to me.

Irenaeus is emphatic that communion with Rome is a sure sign of fidelity to the authentic tradition of the Church (Adv. Haer. 3.3.2), and while I am equally convinced that the Orthodox Churches outside of that communion are faithful to the authentic tradition, the sign of Rome seems to me to be a fortuitous and happy addition.

But there are also entirely romantic reasons. I love much of the Western tradition, including the lives, works, and thought of so many of the great saints prior to the Counter-Reformation, but post-11th century. So, for example, St Hildegard of Bingen, together with the such figures as the late-medieval English mystics. And I fancy that, by being in communion with Rome, I am able to acknoweldge in a real, organic way, the connection with teh tradition represented by them.

Finally, and on a personal level, I have a great attachment to Pope John Paul II, and believe that his prayers are in large part responsible for the happy events that eventually made it possible for my family and I to come into communion with the Catholic Church.

As a result, I would say that, however frustrating Rome can be from an Eastern point of view, I am inclined to do what I can to address the sources of those frustrations than to become Orthodox.
Posted By: RussianCath

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 05/22/12 12:25 AM

Dear John & Constantine,
Glory be to Jesus Christ!

Constantine,
I am sorry to hear that your parish is so latinized and, thus, are HUNGRY for true eastern spirituality to nurish your soul. First, of course, we must practice in our own personal spiritual life what we need to feed our soul. So for you, doing pure eastern practices/prayers-which, I am sure you are already doing. Second, try to help reform your parish-hard, yes, but possible over time-are you ready to suffer with Christ? If, though, impossible, due to pastor, etc...find another parish. If that is not possible, then pray to the Theotokos to know what to do. She will guide you! But remember, the externals of worship are important, but they are NOT the most important thing. I'd take a latinized Eastern Catholic parish over an Orthodox parish with gorgeous services-but where the priest tells his faithful that they can practice contraception-ANYDAY!!!

John,
thank you for the article, the hierodeacon makes some good points. I also abandoned "papism" some time ago. This notion that the Pope of Rome is not just primate of the Universal Church with certain powers, but a sort of "tsar of all the Churches", an absolute monarch with all the patriarchs and bishops as nothing more than his "vassals" is total nonsense and has no backing in Apostolic Tradition, the Fathers, or in the first 1,000 years of the history of the Church! Every time the Pope of Rome did try to do something like being an absolute monarch in the 1st 1,000 years, he was resisted in the East,(even in the West) and it failed. It was only after the Gregorian Revolution after the first millennium that the Popes really began to develop further this false theory of monarchy, and try to force it on the East(and West)-and thus, schism-and the Eastern Churches were right to resist. Some Churches, like Kyiv or Antioch, never broke with Rome after Constantinople did, and just tried to "put up" with Rome's strange theory, which they did for some time. Later, sides became more clear & hardened and some eastern christians chose to stay in union with Rome as they had always done, and others separated. Thus, Eastern Catholic & Orthodox.

Now, we were born into this mess. Rome errored and divided the Church-it is very sad, but true. But, what can me and you really do about it? Pray, yes, pray and fast-this is the MOST important thing. But, how would me and you becoming Orthodox solve the problem of papalism? The Orthodox have their own form of papalism!-their own errors, just as unacceptable as papalism! Have you seen how Moscow-the third ROME-has been acting over the past years? It is POWERFUL and, WANTS MORE POWER! Look at the whole fight over Estonia(Moscow vs. Constantinople)-it is still a mess. Look at Ukraine. Look at the debates over a future pan-Orthodox council-Moscow wants to have the power to block any decision the council could make if it does not agree! Look into history at what Constantinople did to the other Eastern Orthodox patriarchates-sounds pretty "papal" to me!-they don't even have their own original liturgies anymore-it's all Byzantine!
If you joined an Orthodox jurisdiction and submitted to be rebaptized (as many have done) to flee papalism-how is that any different than papalism itself??? It is all the same false idea-WE make the faith! Where is the teaching of the Ecumenical Councils and all the Fathers of the Church that ALL heretics don't have any grace and need to be rebaptized? Why did the 1st Ecumenical Council say that Novations are only to be received by penance, but Paulianists must be rebaptized? Why not all, since according to Orthodoxy, all heretics have no valid sacraments. Trullo said that Nestorians and Monophysites are only to do penance to come back to the Church-no rebaptism, no chrismation, no revesting, nothing-just do some penance and come on in!
Now, this old monk I know told me that when he was with ROCOR, a Ukrainian Catholic joined, and THEY REBAPTIZED HIM! It was the exact same ritual that he was baptized with when he was one year old in the old country! My point: papalism, eastern style-WE MAKE THE FAITH!

The remedy? Remove all error from yourself! If all error is removed from yourself how can you not be pleasing to Christ-that's the point of being in his Church! The Pope holds errors? Guess what! All the Orthodox do too, including the Old Calendarists. You and me are never bound to hold any error; just the opposite. "Ecclesia semper reformata": in every age the Church is in need of reform. Wherever you have human beings, there will be error. This is the NORMAL state of things. Read Neuman's "Arians of the Fourth Century"!
ALL the hierarchs are in error in one form or another-and we are not bound by their ecclesiological errors! Jumping from one jurisdiction from another will not solve anything! We must stand and fight where we are! I agree, papal monarchy, etc... is bogus, but running from it into the arms of it's Orthodox counterpart won't help anything.
Obviously, orthodox Christians will, in times of rampant heresy and disorder, do all they can to avoid it, and join themselves to whatever part of the Church is healthy and retains integrity-but going to Orthodoxy is NO GUARANTEE WHATSOEVER of preservation from error!

Let's play the "Church-Shopping Game":
In order to discover the "True Church of Christ", do the following:
1. First: the Nestorians and Monophysites were excommunicated by Ecumenical Councils, scratch them off your list.
2. The Roman (& Eastern)Catholic Church has proclaimed Papal monarchy and infallibility-an obvious error-eliminate them.
3. The Russian Orthodox hierarchy was wholly subordinated to communist atheism-"antichrist"-and has never repudiated that position, scratch them off.
4. ALL the Eastern Patriarchs immediately recognized Metropolitan Sergius as legitimate head of the Russian Church and proclaimed communion with him; hence, all are "Sergianists", apostates-scratch them off.
5. The Greek Church is subordinated to a secular state government, has instituted the "New Calendar", and is openly modernist. Eliminate them.
6. The Old Calendarists are left.They all understand baptism by heretics to be invalid; hence, unless you were baptized by them, you may need rebaptism. However, since all the Patriarchates passed long periods in heresy without subsequent rebaptism or reordination of clergy, no one-if the Old Calendarist doctrine is correct-could possibly know whether any particular priest today IS a priest-or whether any Christian is a baptized Christian!
Therefore, there is no Church; so mabey, just turn on the tube and catch a game?

You see where such searching for the perfect Church can lead-as, their is no such thing as the perfect Church!
Orthodox AND Catholics make up the Church-we need to remove the error from ourselves and stand and fight for Christ's truth where we are.
The big fight today is against secularization, modernism, immorality-the Eastern Catholic Churches are still officially opposed to all forms of modern immorality, unlike many Orthodox jurisdictions today. So, I am going to stand with them, as, they are a part of the true Church and I was born into this Church. For those born Orthodox, they need to stay where they are and fight the error around them.

Forgive my going on and on-my point is you ARE in the Church-no move to "Orthodoxy" will fix anything! We need 'lots more prayer; less human activity & thinking-and please offer a bit up for this sinner. God bless you.

Alexis
Posted By: Paul B

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 05/22/12 01:43 AM

Glory to Jesus Christ!

I thank God for the gift of my Byzantine (Ruthenian) Catholic faith and have no thoughts of betraying it. Neither do I have the desire to ask anyone of an Orthodox Church to betray his/her faith. But, as you asked for opinions, here is mine.

I say "betray" because within memory of some people still alive, we have experienced the heroic martyrdom of bishops, priests and laypeople who have sacrificed their lives, health, family or social status to remain faithful during the time of ruthless atheistic persecution. Their sacrifices and examples would be in vain if we were to abandon them.

Should anyone claim that our Church betrayed the Orthodox faith with the Uzhohrod or Brest agreements, the truth is that our Churches were nearly isolated from Constantinople at the time because of the Turkish conquest of Byzantium. According to written accounts, it seems the Patriarch was not opposed to the Unions because of the deteriorating situation. In fact, the unions PRESERVED Orthodoxy in Poland and Austria-Hungary, as there were pressures for the Church to become Calvinist or Latin. For the most part our Greek Catholic Church was the mother of the thriving various Orthodox Churches in Eastern and Central USA and the Orthodox Churches in America should be grateful.
It is indeed a scandal that the apostolic Churches of Christ are separated and cannot approve of a common Eucharist. The Body and Blood of Christ has been split and segregated. To me our communion with the Western Church is a sign that we recognize our common Roman brothers and they recognize us. Sure there are deficiencies, but, in my opinion, should pride keep us apart?

Rather than quibbling among ourselves, even the MP recognizes that we have a common threat in our society, that of materialism and periodic persecution which wants to erode and destroy our Faith. To me, the Roman Church has the resources and the will to combat this "wolf in sheep's clothing." The leadership through encyclicals and letters is commendable and necessary.

I find it troubling that some Orthodox bishops and Churches find our Mysteries to be "defective." Some find fault in the smallest change in the wording of the Profession of Faith, but fail to live up to the professed claim of "one Baptism." And how can the Gift of Chrismation be defective? Either one receives the Holy Spirit or he does not. That is, unless one believes that our priests are imposters and our ritual, which is the same as the Orthodox, is somehow not acted or spoken correctly.

The splintering of the Orthodox Churches is not as troubling, but can the East really justify the "autocephalus" Churches. With all the importance of Patriarchy that I read on this forum, how are they justified? Is the "Orthodox Church" patriarchal or not?

My brother, Constantine, let is live with brotherly love and try to understand each other; I take it that this is the reason for your post.

In my opinion we should respect each of the Apostolic Churches and try to work together. Let us be "God's hands" and docile to the Holy Spirit.

Your brother in Christ,
Fr Deacon Paul
Posted By: sielos ilgesys

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 05/22/12 03:27 AM

For starters,I remain a member of the Catholic Communion of Churches for several reasons (these are not all but they're the salient ones):

- After giving it a lot of study, energy and attention I have concluded it's the most authentic form of Christianity available.

- I believe (albeit somewhat unenthusiastically) the Catholic Church's proposals about the role of the Bishop of Rome.

- I am convinced I am already orthodox. My well-meaning friends, members of the Orthodox Church, have kindly and lovingly shared with me, on more than one occasion, that that's an example of prelest on my part.

My rather troubled cousin, a Ukrainian Orthodox Church member in Saskatchewan, has shared with me her insight (!) that we Greek Catholics ain't nothin' more than "Orthodox-lite".

- Due to personal negative experiences with Catholic hierarchy members, I am suspicious to the point almost of hostility to authority-exercisers or "God-speakers" within the Catholic Communion of Churches. I do not for one instant think that their exercise of authority is necessarily a form of service. I do, however, opine it's often just one more expression of clericalistic abuse.

I'm working on moving beyond that but I ain't moved beyond it completely yet.

Consequently I have no desire whatsoever to transfer to yet another authority-loving Communion of Churches I perceive to be highly intrusive. I'd just as soon not go from the frying pan into the fire. I'll stay with the witch I know than swap for the devil I don't.

- Remaining within the Catholic Communion of Churches enables me to experience and lay claim to a variety of diverse liturgical/devotional expressions without transferring my allegiance to another Communion of Churches.

- It's a part of my ethnic religious heritage and I see no benefit whatsoever in relinquishing that.

As I have said before, I'm quite ambivalent about my Church membership and sometimes wonder if I'm stuck, like Br'er Rabbit on the tarbaby, on the Catholic Church.

Maybe these reasons are open to criticism but they're working for me and I'm persuaded God's OK with them, too.
Posted By: seraphion

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 05/22/12 06:59 AM

I choose remaining an EC because jumping out from EC when she is in trouble will not solve the problem. If i run away from EC because there is problem, so there is no assurance that i will not do the same when the Orthodox Church faces problem.
Posted By: Diak

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 05/22/12 02:00 PM

Fr. Deacon James offers an excellent answer. My own wanderings have included the SSPX and six Orthodox jurisdictions in addition to coming very close to joining an Old Ritualist community and a brief stint in another Greek Catholic jurisdiction.

It is not polemics (I've heard lots of that over the years) but the "groanings of the spirit" that have led me and brought peace the last two-plus decades in the UGCC. Vladimir Soloviev, who I discovered much later in life, didn't so much convince me as place perspective on those "groanings".

When Patriarch +Sviatoslav came to Chicago last fall, I received his blessing and realized that we have been given one of the most dynamic leaders in Christendom. When I was present with my family for the enshrinement of the relics of Blessed Vasyl Velychkovsky in Winnipeg in 2002, it was even more vividly manifest as to what cost had been paid by our martyrs and confessors so that we might be able to worship in our parishes and homes, and remain faithful to the Union.

The grass is not greener, only the weeds are different.
Posted By: Soson Kyrie

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 05/23/12 02:12 AM

Originally Posted by ConstantineTG
Care to share? Why remain Eastern Catholic and not become Orthodox? What made you make this choice?


I think this has been asked several times here, on OC.net and on CAF, and I've given this answer several times, but here we go:

1. I don't believe the Latin church is heretical and don't want to bring the schism into my family.

2. there's a lot more to the more difficult issues (e.g. role of the Pope) than is available on internet discussion boards.

3. the monk I met on Mt. Athos who I trust the most suggested, unsolicited, that I not convert, for reasons that remain personal. He knows Catholicism better than anyone outside of Catholic academia.
Posted By: Yuhannon

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 05/23/12 09:12 PM

Shlomo Aho (Brother) Constantine,

You stated:
Quote
I never said "Eastern Orthodox", I just said "Orthodox". I do know that the "different kinds of Orthodox", so to speak. The Oriental Orthodox are Orthodox, although not in communion with the Chalcedonian Orthodox.


You are correct to the above, but many members of the board are not as educated as you and I on the differences within Catholicism or Orthodoxy. That is the main focus of my point.

Quote
To me it doesn't matter which one. If one felt their faith is better served being in the Catholic side of their tradition, I want to know why they made that choice over being on the Orthodox side.


To give you a very short answer, I feel that the Church is at its absolute Truth when we are in Communion with the Pope.

Quote
Yet we hear complaints from Eastern Catholics that the Liturgical traditions are not as faithful and as authentic as they are on the Orthodox counterparts.


I feel that if one feel that then they should talk with their pastor and other members of their parish to get a more authentic Liturgy. As Frederick Douglass stated: "Power concedes nothing without a demand." If we want an authentic Liturgy then we need to demand it. This is one of the reasons that I am in trouble here in Las Vegas because I do demand that Our Eastern Catholic Churches get off their behinds and become "True" Churches in every since of the word.

Quote
I do believe in this too. However, sometimes I wonder how much my presence within the Church is actually changing it.


Believe me when I say that your presence does help to change things. Before I got sick and became homeless, I was very involved in politics. I can tell you that being one person, you can change the system. I was the one that got late night liquor service in Minneapolis. Because of my work, the Republican Convention took place there. It would not have if they did not have late night liquor service. I also helped to get the bottle deposit law changed in Michigan and a number of other environmental laws passed.

With the wonderful work that Anthony Dragani did on evangelization I was able to build from his work and use it to be one of the first Eastern Catholics to do a presentation at World Youth Day, as well as have said work now be the offical guide for evangelization in my Eparchy and having the Melkite Eparchy have my paper listed on their website.

Until my teens I did not even know that I was a Maronite. I came to the faith because I did research, and even with all of its faults I feel that being a member of the Catholic Church is the best thing for me.

Fush BaShlomo,
Yuhannon
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 05/24/12 09:18 PM

Originally Posted by RussianCath
An old monk I know told me about his experience going from Catholic to Orthodox back to Catholic. He saw all the problems in the Catholic Church, fled, went to Orthodoxy, found the same errors in different forms there, and worse, (acceptance of immorality, contraception, as one example-and he asked them to their faces if these things were acceptable, and they said YES-he spoke to bishops), so, he came back to the Catholic Church and began fighting the problems he found therein.
So, in my humble opinion we need to stay put and fight for the truth of Christ where we are, and as we try to clean house, encourage our Orthodox brothers to do the same on their side, so that someday, mabey, we can be reunited. Don't jump ship. Don't you see that you are "Orthodox" already?-"Orthodoxy"-right belief. You ARE in Christ's Church.
My two cents. God Bless you and be assured of my prayers! Please pray for me!

Alexis


When he left Orthodoxy, wasn't that "jumping ship" too?
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 05/24/12 09:19 PM

Originally Posted by haydukovich
From my current viewpoint - there is no reason to remain Eastern Catholic.

Unless someone can convince me otherwise - I am considering converting from Eastern Catholic to Orthodoxy - I do not see the advantages to practicing an Eastern religion under the heavy hand of Latinization. I am currently waiting for 1 year to make sure I'm not just jumping ship. I also wonder if I am jumping ship - am I jumping ship because it is going to sink?

I would like to hear good reasons why I should remain Eastern Catholic from others.

Are you Orthodox or Eastern Catholic?

John

p.s. I love the Pope - but I love the Pope as The Patriarch of Rome



Hi John. For me, personally, it isn't about advantages. I was born into the Roman Communion, and I don't know any reason strong enough to get me to leave it. (That's not to say that I would leave Orthodoxy, if I had been born into it.)
Posted By: ByzBob

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 05/24/12 11:55 PM

This is a very difficult question to answer. I could see a day when it maybe be necessary to become Orthodox. I see little in the later papal claims that make me think that communion with Rome is essential.
There are, however, family issues to consider -- breaking communion with the RC means breaking communion with most of the extended family.
Posted By: Anathema Sit

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 05/25/12 12:59 AM

I am Roman Catholic, but my heart is open to our Brothers and Sisters of the East. It has been in the last few monthes that I have been interested in learning more about the Eastern Churches and the Orthodoc Church.

I remain a Roman Catholic, because I feel this is where God wishes me to be at this time, however, I feel He wishes me to learn more about the Eastern Catholic Churches, I hope I got the right terminology, and the Orthodox Church.

God Bless,
AS
Posted By: ConstantineTG

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 05/25/12 05:40 AM

Very nice points everyone. I guess it all boils down to two major things, what do you believe in those things that Catholics and Orthodox do not agree on (like the Papacy), and I guess where your spirituality will grow more.
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 05/25/12 09:29 AM

Originally Posted by ConstantineTG
Very nice points everyone. I guess it all boils down to two major things, what do you believe in those things that Catholics and Orthodox do not agree on (like the Papacy), and I guess where your spirituality will grow more.


Personally, I don't see it that way. BTW, good to see you again, I've missed conversing with you on the other forum. smile




- Peter Jericho

"Neither Moscow nor Rome will give us unity."
+Lubomyr
Posted By: sielos ilgesys

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 05/25/12 10:15 AM

I like to think ECs who voluntarily leave an EC and become Orthodox are merely changing ships, not "jumping ship". I believe one time (Canadian PM) MacKenzie King told President Roosevelt that Canada and the US were not in the same boat but were in the same waters.

But me, I can't see what good switching to the Orthodox Church would do me. And I can't see what good I'd do the Orthodox Church, either.
Posted By: JW55

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 05/25/12 11:27 AM


I don't Want to derail the OP's original thought but I would like to expand on it with a few questions, that I would like to hear responses from practicing Byzantine Catholics.

It seems in reading through many of the posts in this thread it appears that many Byzantine Catholics have contemplated becoming Orthodox. This is apparently for various reasons such as they are dissatisfied with what they feel are continued Latinizations from the Roman Church, or they feel want to go fully Orthodox or as one person phrased it that some may view themselves as being "Orthodox-lite" as a Byzantine Catholic. Others seem to imply mayb feel they are being treated as a"red-headed step- child of Rome as opposed to being given the respect and autonomy they deserve.

The times I have been to a Byzantine Catholic Church I have always been treated respectfully, folks have always been kind, helpful, encouraging and did their best to make me feel comfortable. The Divine Liturgy was always beautiful, spiritual and respectful. I got the feeling it was a wonderful place to be. It always gives me a deeper appreciation of the Chrisitan East. I have always had the impression the people there were happy and content with their church.

However, reading the forum including this thread I get the feeling there is actually a lot of dissatisfaction with the Byzantine Catholic Church and its position within the Universal church.

With that being said, where do you see the position of the Byzantine Catholic churches within this Universal Church. Is it a happy medium between the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox? Does the Eastern Catholic Churches satisfactorily stand alone? What would you like to see changed in the Eastern Catholic Churches. Most importantly, are you truly happy being an Eastern Catholic?
Posted By: Carson Daniel

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/01/12 01:26 AM

If there were any Orthodox commune seriously seeking some kind of union with the Bishop of Rome I would take Orthodoxy much more seriously. As far as I can tell such seriousness is nearly impossible since there are so many different Orthodox Church. Heck, some of them are even autocephalic. Say what??? Almost all of the efforts for some kind of reunion seems to be coming from Rome. Moreover, I don't see any religious leader who can stand against the secular or Islamic forces that face us.

No, I'll take the Eastern Spirituality which we enjoy as Eastern Christians along with the stability of Rome.
Posted By: jjp

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/01/12 02:44 AM

I don't blame the Orthodox Church for not taking reunion or communion seriously, when Eastern churches already in union with Rome can't even figure out if it's "ok" to have married priests.

The national breakout of Orthodox Churches does not make sense in this day and age, but Rome is just as nonsensical about plenty of other things.

Each must improve to achieve the ideal God hopes for us.
Posted By: RussianCath

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/04/12 06:54 PM

My two above LONG statements being said, I must admit, if any of our eastern catholic hierarchs did finally have enough of Roman nonsense and decided to break communion with Rome (like the Carpatho-Russians, for example), I would have a hard time NOT following them!
Posted By: haydukovich

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/04/12 09:50 PM

Orthodoxy vs Eastern Catholic

In my view Eastern Catholic must be the best versions of orthodox they can be. without restrictions and limitations.
AUTONOMOUS RIGHT?
If they are dictated to by Rome in any way (calling the Bishops to Rome?) then they are subject to Rome and not a church sui iurus.

That they can be summoned and directed by Rome IMPLIES THAT THEY ARE not autonomous.

Does a Sui iurus church differ from a sui iurus Metropolia?

Is there a vast difference of being summoned to Rome by the Patriarch of Rome vs a Cardinal - or is the Cardinal working on behalf of the Pope to summon? Any why not just the Metropolitan - why the Bishops?

Why did the Bishops summoned by Cardinal Sandri go to Rome?
A nice trip to Rome like a vacation and a spiritual connection to the Patriarch of Rome or to be lectured to about celibacy?

perhaps our
russian Catholic Brother is right =
ACROD is right?
perhaps we can never be allowed to be the best orthodox version of ourselves until we break free of the tyranny of The Holy See.

Someone somewhere compared our situation to the Early American Revolution where taxation without representation became too much to bear for the colonists.

by the way ... I've been told by some that I am not Byzantine enough to be Byzantine Catholic - by my brethren Byzantines - with a name like Haydukovich - my ancestors were dying in the fields of battle protecting Hungarian Latin Catholics (among all the others in Europe and Italy) from hoardes of very evil Turkish Muslims long before Latin catholic converts who happen to like Icons became Byzantine Catholic. Of course my ancestors were Orthodox.
(Kosovo Djevojka)
Posted By: haydukovich

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/04/12 10:07 PM

An old Serbian Saying

Politics is religion - religion is politics


and believe me ... Serbians love to argue both ad naseum

Posted By: Erie Byz

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/04/12 11:06 PM

Originally Posted by RussianCath
My two above LONG statements being said, I must admit, if any of our eastern catholic hierarchs did finally have enough of Roman nonsense and decided to break communion with Rome (like the Carpatho-Russians, for example), I would have a hard time NOT following them!


Me too! To throw fuel on the fire Metropolitan William is heading to Rome to receive the Pallium.
Posted By: Nelson Chase

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/04/12 11:08 PM

Quote
To throw fuel on the fire Metropolitan William is heading to Rome to receive the Pallium.


What? Can you provide a link to this information? And did previous Metropolitans do the same?
Posted By: StuartK

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/04/12 11:23 PM

I was under the impression that this practice had halted with Metropolitan Judson.
Posted By: RussianCath

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/05/12 12:43 AM

If this is true, (Metro. William to receive pallium)....IN-CRE-DI-BLE! Is this stuff never going to end???...to be honest, I really don't think so...they have swallowed the "papal pill"...When the eastern catholic bishops entered into union with Rome, they AGREEDED to this STUFF, or, when it was hoisted upon them, just passively accepted it. It's all in the 4th Lateran Council-which THEY ALSO HAVE to agree is ecumenical-

Constitution #4:
states the Greek Church owes "obedience to the Apostolic See"; and the Council says,"we strictly order...that...they...conform themselves like obedient sons to the holy Roman Church, THEIR MOTHER." The same constitution asserts the right of Rome to alter the rites and customs of the other patriarchates. This is an error, another example of the papal ideology.

Constitution #5:
states that the Council is ecumenical, and asserts Roman-Papal supremacy:"RENEWING THE ANCIENT PRIVILEGES of the patriarchal sees, we decree, with the approval of this sacred universal synod, that after the Roman Church, which through the Lord's dispensation has a primacy of ordinary power over all other churches inasmuch as it is the mother and mistress of all Christ's faithful...THUS AFTER THEIR PONTIFFS HAVE RECEIVED FROM THE ROMAN PONTIFF THE PALLIUM, which is the sign of the fulness of the pontifical office, and have taken an oath of fidelity and obedience to him, they may lawfully confer the pallium on their own suffragans, receiving from them for themselves canonical profession and for the Roman Church the promise of obedience...let appeal be made to them, when it is necessary, except for appeals made to the Apostolic See, TO WHICH ALL MUST HUMBLY DEFER..."-the papal error.

For years I have read Eastern Catholics "beating around the bush" when it comes to this kind of stuff...they either accept it right out, (swallow the pill) or say, well, we interpret it in our own way...well, sorry, when your bishops agreed to union with Rome, they accepted the fact that they MUST "interpret" this stuff according to ROME'S GOOD PLEASURE, not their own, otherwise, guess what...bye bye...suspension, excommunication, etc...look at what Pius IX did to the Melkite & Chaldean Patriarchs at Vatican I-scandalous!!!

The old monk I know who I mentioned in my earlier posts (who did the jumping from Catholic-Orthodox-Catholic-he is a hermit now), after my telling him about all this new (and more) nonsense from Rome, told me the following:

"Modernism is everywhere, and that's the chief battle. But some of them (e.g. the Ukrainians),[as I mentioned the Ukrainians] given the state of the Roman Church and their subordination in it and loss of identity, might be better to return to the parent Church. They quite definitely ought to hold synods and claim their rightful autonomy-NO ARGUMENTS, NO NEGOTIATIONS. ROME BURPS THE WRONG WAY-BREAK COMMUNION. THE WAY TO DEAL WITH TYRANTS IS WITH THE MACE."

And you know what, I agree with him!
So, I'm praying to the Theotokos, that if she really wants me to "jump ship" to the "other side", I'll do so. But, I ain't denyin' I was never in the Church before, and I ain't goin' to no Orthodox that are modernist to the core and allow every sort of immoral practice under the sun! So, I stay put until she opens the door...until then, what can we do (besides pray & fast)to get our OFTEN backboneless hierarchs (forgive me, all do respect to their holy office, but enough is enough!) to actually do something for once and stand up to Rome!? Is their anything we can do??? We need another St. Alexis Toth!
Posted By: Curious Joe

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/05/12 12:48 AM

Originally Posted by Erie Byz
To throw fuel on the fire Metropolitan William is heading to Rome to receive the Pallium.


Didn't he just get back from Rome?
Posted By: Pavloosh

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/05/12 01:26 AM

An erroneous statement has been made that the Ukrainians have lost their identity when in fact the Ukrainian Catholic Church is the best known of all the Eastern Catholic Churches. If any group has lost its identity, it is the Byzantine Catholic Church in the USA.
Posted By: Diak

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/05/12 01:55 PM

Quote
But some of them (e.g. the Ukrainians),[as I mentioned the Ukrainians] given the state of the Roman Church and their subordination in it and loss of identity, might be better to return to the parent Church.

He apparently wasn't around during any of the visits of Patriarch +Sviatoslav to North America, nor in any of our parishes during the supplications before and during the Sobor that elected him a mere few weeks after the retirement of Patriarch +Lubomyr. Like Pavloosh, I'll call that post "hogwash". Patriarch +Sviatoslav has brought a new dynamism that I have seen in very few Eastern Christian leaders (Catholic or Orthodox) in my lifetime.
Многая і благая Вам літа Блаженніший Святославе!!!!
Posted By: Curious Joe

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/05/12 03:00 PM

Originally Posted by Diak
Patriarch +Sviatoslav has brought a new dynamism that I have seen in very few Eastern Christian leaders (Catholic or Orthodox) in my lifetime.


Indeed! While I am not a Ukrainian Greek Catholic, I have watched with great admiration as this dynamic young Patriarch reinvigorates his Church, and all of Eastern Catholicism along with it.

Perhaps before we meet our "destiny to disappear" more of us will become Ukrainian Greek Catholics ...
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/05/12 04:18 PM

Originally Posted by RussianCath
The old monk I know who I mentioned in my earlier posts (who did the jumping from Catholic-Orthodox-Catholic-he is a hermit now), after my telling him about all this new (and more) nonsense from Rome, told me the following:

"Modernism is everywhere, and that's the chief battle. But some of them (e.g. the Ukrainians),[as I mentioned the Ukrainians] given the state of the Roman Church and their subordination in it and loss of identity, might be better to return to the parent Church. They quite definitely ought to hold synods and claim their rightful autonomy-NO ARGUMENTS, NO NEGOTIATIONS. ROME BURPS THE WRONG WAY-BREAK COMMUNION. THE WAY TO DEAL WITH TYRANTS IS WITH THE MACE."


Hmmm ... sounds a bit strange. (Not jumping to any conclusions about him, just seems a bit strange.)
Posted By: DMD

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/05/12 04:40 PM

Any links on the Pallium? That would not sit well with the Orthodox. Did the new Ukrainian Greek Catholic Major-Archbishop/Patriarch receive this from Rome?

These are interesting times for both the BCC and the ACROD. God acts in mysterious ways indeed....

Posted By: Diak

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/05/12 05:23 PM

Quote
Did the new Ukrainian Greek Catholic Major-Archbishop/Patriarch receive this from Rome?

Since he was chosen by his Synod, and not Rome, no.
Posted By: DMD

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/05/12 05:57 PM

Originally Posted by Diak
Quote
Did the new Ukrainian Greek Catholic Major-Archbishop/Patriarch receive this from Rome?

Since he was chosen by his Synod, and not Rome, no.


Interesting, but without the consent of Rome his election would not have mattered, would it? The whole distinction between the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, the Melkite Greek Catholic Church and the Ruthenians escapes me. The Ruthenians cross geographic borders as do the others - why do they not constitute a fully self governing Sui Juris church, including its diaspora - as the UGCC seemingly does?

I recognize that ACROD for example is under the omophor of the EP and the nomination of a ruling hierarch by and of its Assembly of Priests must be ratified by the Synod of the Ecumenical Throne. But once enthroned, its Bishop will be the ruling bishop of his diocese and will not be beholden to the Ecumenical Throne for any additional local powers.

Perhaps I do not fully understand the significance of this, but why would one Eastern Catholic Metropolitan-Bishop of a Sui Juris Church require a pallium while another does not?
Posted By: StuartK

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/05/12 06:53 PM

Not really. It's pro forma, like the exchange of synodika among Othodox patriarchs. In theory, each Orthodox patriarch is free to reject the synodikon of a newly elected patriarch, but this almost never happens (and would cause a crisis if it did). To a large extent, the Pope's ratification of an Eastern Catholic Patriarch's election parallels the role once played by the Roman Emperor: all patriarchs and metropolitans had to have their elections ratified by the Emperor (including, interestingly, the Pope); without that ratification, the hierarch's election was technically illegal. In contrast to the Popes, the Emperors were far more assertive in their right to reject synodal nominees, and not infrequently simply installed their own choice in the vacant office. For some reason, unless the Emperor's nominee was either morally dissolute or theologically heterodox, the Synod seldom objected.

One the Patriarch of Kyiv is installed in his throne, he, like the Metropolitan of Johnstown, is not dependent on the Bishop of Rome for anything. Greek Catholic Patriarchs do not even receive the Pallium, let alone have it placed over their heads.
Posted By: DMD

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/05/12 07:32 PM

Originally Posted by StuartK
Not really. It's pro forma, like the exchange of synodika among Othodox patriarchs. In theory, each Orthodox patriarch is free to reject the synodikon of a newly elected patriarch, but this almost never happens (and would cause a crisis if it did). To a large extent, the Pope's ratification of an Eastern Catholic Patriarch's election parallels the role once played by the Roman Emperor: all patriarchs and metropolitans had to have their elections ratified by the Emperor (including, interestingly, the Pope); without that ratification, the hierarch's election was technically illegal. In contrast to the Popes, the Emperors were far more assertive in their right to reject synodal nominees, and not infrequently simply installed their own choice in the vacant office. For some reason, unless the Emperor's nominee was either morally dissolute or theologically heterodox, the Synod seldom objected.

One the Patriarch of Kyiv is installed in his throne, he, like the Metropolitan of Johnstown, is not dependent on the Bishop of Rome for anything. Greek Catholic Patriarchs do not even receive the Pallium, let alone have it placed over their heads.


I am still confused as Rome has not, to my knowledge, ever acknowledged the head of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church as Patriarch of Kyiv. I know that he, and Cardinal Huzar, are commonly referred to as such by the faithful, but doesn't Rome call him Major-Archbishop?

Once enthroned, theRuling Bishop of ACROD (not by right a Metropolitan - we shall see how the new Bishop shall be titled later this year) is dependent upon the Ecumenical Patriarch for the reception of chrism as is the Greek Archdiocese in the United States. The OCA, holding herself out as autocephalous, consecrates its own chrism.
Posted By: RussianCath

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/05/12 07:57 PM

My apologies if some of my statements offended anyone (which it seems they have), may God have mercy on this sinner!
There IS renewal in the Ukrainian Catholic Church-the result of the blood of the thousands & thousands (millions) of new-martyrs. This new leader, Major-Archbishop Sviatoslav, has been doing some great work-it is undeniable.
Nevertheless, I still agree that the Ukrainians and all other eastern catholics HAVE lost a great part of their identity:

"Whether one wants it or not, they {eastern catholics} have been attached to the Patriarchate of the West, since the Bishop of Rome governs them through the Roman Congregations, just as he governs his own Latin Patriarchate. This led Cardinal Joseph Slipyj, the Major Archbishop of the Ukrainian Catholics to state in a letter dated July 11, 1977, and addressed to Cardinal Joseph Parecattil, president of the Commission for the Unification of Oriental Canon Law, 'This code indicates clearly that union with Rome signifies to all the Eastern Churches the loss of their autonomy, their total submission and their degradation to an inferior position within the Church,'...In his turn, Mar Joseph Mounayer, a Syrian Catholic bishop, wrote on October 3, 1977 about the role of papal authority included in the same project on the revision of the Oriental Canon Law:
'What can we conclude from such odious and harsh words except that:
a) The total dependence and allegiance of the Eastern patriarchs in their relation to the Patriarch of Rome, is a very striking one. They are subjected to him as simple soldiers. They are not treated as brothers, but as docile subjects to both his orders and to the directives of the Roman Congregations.
b) The administrative and disciplinary centralization of Rome has been applied to the Easterners. This juridical centralization is an excessive and heavy burden to carry.
c) A durable and perpetual mandate, instead of a provisional and temporary one, has been imposed by the Patriarch of Rome upon his brothers the Eastern patriarchs, as well as the Church of Rome has been imposed on the Eastern Churches. Nothing can escape Rome, everything must pass by Rome. Everything must be carried out according to the whims of the Roman Congregations...The era of mandates and colonization has not yet ceased.'
Those who think we are exaggerating and that the Uniate Eastern Churches are not dependent upon the Roman Congregations, and are not subject to them, we present the following two declarations:
1) The bulletin of the Congregation for the Oriental Churches (SICO) states on page 9 of its May-June {issue}, 1981, in mentioning the death of Msgr. Emile Gilardone, assessor of the Sacred Congregation for the Oriental Churches, 'His work led him more than once to the Holy Land and to other countries subjected to the jurisdiction of the Sacred Congregation'
2) Another example is the annual statistical questionnaire sent by the Secretary of State to the Eastern Catholic patriarchs and bishops, which is needed for the preparation of the official pontifical yearbook. On the first page we read that this questionnaire is addressed to patriarchates, metropolitan archdioceses, archdioceses or eparchies subject to the patriarch, suffragan prelatures, abbeys, apostolic vicariates, vicariate to the armies, etc. After having underlined the category to which the respondent belongs, we must answer the following question, by underlining one of the following. 'Which pontifical congregation do you depend upon? The Council for the Public Affairs of the Church? The Sacred Congregation for the Bishops? The Sacred Congregation for the Oriental Churches? The Sacred Congregation for the Evangelization of the People? By underlining the third item, one sees the following, 'Patriarchate, archdiocese, eparchy...dependent upon the Sacred Congregation for the Oriental Churches!' I wanted to hide this humiliating reality. However nothing worked. Rome is consistent within itself. The Melkite patriarchate, archdioceses, and eparchies are all dependent upon the Congregation for the Oriental Churches, and submitted to their jurisdiction. In other words, the Eastern Catholic patriarchs and synods only enjoy a delegated jurisdiction, delegated by the Super-Patriarch of Rome, namely the aforementioned Oriental Congregation... Acclimatized Uniates."-Archbishop Elias Zoghby.

"The CCEO has ratified uses absolutely contrary to Eastern tradtion and ecclesiology!"-Patriarch Gregorios III Laham.

Until the following problems change, I will still consider that the eastern catholics have definitely lost some of their identity!
Posted By: Fr. Deacon Lance

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/05/12 08:35 PM

Originally Posted by Nelson Chase
Quote
To throw fuel on the fire Metropolitan William is heading to Rome to receive the Pallium.


What? Can you provide a link to this information? And did previous Metropolitans do the same?


No link, but I can confirm it. The Metropolitan stated this at Liturgy this past Sunday which I served with him. Metropolitans Stephen, Thomas, and Judson did. Metropolitan Basil I don't know but I am guessing yes.


Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches
TITLE 6

Metropolitan Churches and Other Churches Sui Iuris

Canon 155

1. A metropolitan Church sui iuris is presided over by a metropolitan of a determined see who is appointed by the Roman Pontiff and assisted by a council of hierarchs according to the norm of law.

2. It is solely the right of the supreme authority of the Church to erect, modify, suppress and define the territorial boundaries of metropolitan Churches sui iuris.

Canon 156

1. Within three months after episcopal ordination or, if already ordained a bishop, after the enthronement, the metropolitan is bound by the obligation to petition the pallium from the Roman Pontiff, which is a sign of his metropolitan power and full communion of the metropolitan Church sui iuris with the Roman Pontiff.

2. Prior to the imposition of the pallium, the metropolitan cannot convoke the council of hierarchs or ordain bishops.


Posted By: Diak

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/05/12 09:07 PM

Quote
Any links on the Pallium? That would not sit well with the Orthodox.

There are certain consequences of being a "metropolitan Church sui iuris". In the ecclesiastical dimension it means Rome appoints the Metropolitan (and by extension all of the hierarchs). In addition to the citarions of canon law, receiving the Pallium is in a sense an affirmation of the ecclesiastical reality of that particular Church. It doesn't surprise, shock, or dismay me.
Posted By: Paul B

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/05/12 10:17 PM

Originally Posted by Diak
Quote
Any links on the Pallium? That would not sit well with the Orthodox.

There are certain consequences of being a "metropolitan Church sui iuris". In the ecclesiastical dimension it means Rome appoints the Metropolitan (and by extension all of the hierarchs). In addition to the citarions of canon law, receiving the Pallium is in a sense an affirmation of the ecclesiastical reality of that particular Church. It doesn't surprise, shock, or dismay me.



Amen to that. I wish that the Metropolitan receiving the pallium was our greatest concern. It probably ranks down below the top 25.
Posted By: Carson Daniel

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/05/12 10:26 PM

Perhaps someone could help me understand why it is such a shock to have our Patriarch call our bishops to a meeting? Don't Patriarchs of the Orthodox Church have such authority? Don't they ever meet with their bishops?
Posted By: Nelson Chase

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/05/12 10:43 PM

Quote
Perhaps someone could help me understand why it is such a shock to have our Patriarch call our bishops to a meeting?


Here we go again...the Pope is not the Patriarch of the Byzantine Catholic Church. Just because we don't have an Eastern Patriarch over us it doesn't mean the Pope fills that void.

A Church can be sui juirs or autonomous or autocephalous without a Patriarch. The Ancient Church of Cyprus is lead by an Archbishop. Does that mean one of the other Orthodox Patriarchs is the Patriarch of the Archbishop of Cyprus?

The head of our Church is Metropolitan William who is in Communion with the Bishop of Rome. Unfortunately, with the huge Latinization that is the Code of Canons of the Eastern Church, the Pope appoints our Bishops.

If we could function truly as an Eastern Church should (appoint our own bishops and metropolitan) this would solve the ecclesiological nightmare that is the Code of Canons of the Eastern Church.

If the Pope is our Patriarch then we should stop complaining about celibacy as our Patriarch has decided that we shouldn't have married priests.

It also seems that we have lost track of the original question of this thread.
Posted By: Fr. Deacon Lance

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/05/12 11:18 PM

Originally Posted by Nelson Chase
Quote
Perhaps someone could help me understand why it is such a shock to have our Patriarch call our bishops to a meeting?


Here we go again...the Pope is not the Patriarch of the Byzantine Catholic Church. Just because we don't have an Eastern Patriarch over us it doesn't mean the Pope fills that void.

A Church can be sui juirs or autonomous or autocephalous without a Patriarch. The Ancient Church of Cyprus is lead by an Archbishop.


Which is the problem of the CCEO. It diverges from Eastern practice which recognizes only autocephalous and autonomous and substitutes the patriarchate/major archepiscopate/metropolitanate/episcopate/exarchate system which in effect makes the Pope the Patriarch (in law, if not name) of metropolitanate and lower Churches. The functioning of these Churches in respect to Rome is no different than Latin dioceses.
Posted By: Carson Daniel

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/06/12 01:16 AM

Frankly, I don't wish our church to be autocephalous. That is one of the reasons I remain BC instead of Orthodox.
Posted By: StuartK

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/06/12 01:21 AM

Autonomous under the Patriarchate of Kyiv would be fine with me.
Posted By: StuartK

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/06/12 01:23 AM

Quote
If the Pope is our Patriarch then we should stop complaining about celibacy as our Patriarch has decided that we shouldn't have married priests.


No patriarch can unilaterally contravene an element of the Tradition. Let us remember that this same "patriarch" at one time also prohibited infant communion and required us to alter the order of the sacraments of initiation.
Posted By: Carson Daniel

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/06/12 01:27 AM

I agree with both of your comments. I don't think we should be slaves to our Patriarch. None of them are infallible outside of ex cathedra comments in order to satisfy conflicts that cannot be resolved elsewhere. Nevertheless, a Patriarch is an important part of the Church. Until we get another I would guess Rome will do.
Posted By: Nelson Chase

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/06/12 01:31 AM

With all due respect the Pope is NOT OUR PATRIARCH!! A Church does not need a Patriarch to be a particular/local Church.

Posted By: Fr. Deacon Lance

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/06/12 01:45 AM

Originally Posted by Nelson Chase
With all due respect the Pope is NOT OUR PATRIARCH!! A Church does not need a Patriarch to be a particular/local Church.


I agree with both statements, but in actual practice the Pope does function as our patriarch.
Posted By: Jason D

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/06/12 03:02 AM

In practice, there is only one bishop in the Catholic Church: the pope. All other bishops are merely his assistants and have no rights beyond what he grants to them. The Holy Father has immediate and complete jurisdiction over the whole church.
Posted By: EasternRomioi3

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/06/12 03:13 AM

Well I remember when I was beginning to find God. My family was shunned by the Roman Catholic Church because my mom refused to go through a year of marriage classes before getting married, so my family had a non-Catholic wedding. When they went to get my baptized, they cast us out of the church and refused to baptize me.

With that, my family always told me "The Roman Catholics only care if things are done their way, they would abandon an innocent newborn because of the transgressions of the parents". This obviously soured my opinion on the RC Church, so I began looking for another church that had the message but not the laws.

Protestantism didn't appeal to me in anyway, and Orthodoxy did, but the ethnic divisions and the insistence on using Greek, Russian, etc, despite the Church doctrine saying Liturgies must be in the vernacular, that drove me away. Turning to the Byzantine Catholic Church broke through those ethnic divisions and gave the same message as the Orthodox, problem solved. Though admittedly, I was raised in a traditional Southern Italian setting, so much of the Slavic culture that dominates my area was hard to get used to, but now no one really looks at me as an "outsider."
Posted By: Roman Interloper

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/06/12 04:19 AM

"Turning to the Byzantine Catholic Church broke through those ethnic divisions and gave the same message as the Orthodox, problem solved."

That, perhaps, answers a question I raised on another thread concerning the possibility of experiencing an ethnically-neutral Eastern Catholicism. There is a Byzantine Catholic Church (styled as such) in a neighboring suburb. I think I'll check it out one of these days.
Posted By: Irish Melkite

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/06/12 09:57 AM

Originally Posted by Alice
Hmmm...'true church'--now there is a loaded phrase used to attack and counter attack.

How can either side of the cultural divide be the 'true church' when one bishop (albeit the acknowleged seat of the 'first among equals') has gone it alone, and the remaining bishops have gone it alone without him?!?

One might say that the latter have adhered to traditions more closely and genuinely (the Orthodox) and truly they have.

The other side might say that as seat of Peter they have the right to have changed traditions, but I don't know if that is as convincing as the prior.

My final conclusion: Neither is the true church, but are equal and broken parts of the first original true Church of Christ.

As for where one should be, I think that is between him and God, and I don't think that God takes sides (either in this world or in Heaven) other than knowing what is best for the individual (in this world) in taking into account his or her overall picture (spirituality, family, culture, tradition, understanding, approach, etc.)

Peace,
Alice


Well said, my sister!

Many years,

Neil
Posted By: DMD

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/06/12 01:46 PM

Originally Posted by Irish Melkite
Originally Posted by Alice
Hmmm...'true church'--now there is a loaded phrase used to attack and counter attack.

How can either side of the cultural divide be the 'true church' when one bishop (albeit the acknowleged seat of the 'first among equals') has gone it alone, and the remaining bishops have gone it alone without him?!?

One might say that the latter have adhered to traditions more closely and genuinely (the Orthodox) and truly they have.

The other side might say that as seat of Peter they have the right to have changed traditions, but I don't know if that is as convincing as the prior.

My final conclusion: Neither is the true church, but are equal and broken parts of the first original true Church of Christ.

As for where one should be, I think that is between him and God, and I don't think that God takes sides (either in this world or in Heaven) other than knowing what is best for the individual (in this world) in taking into account his or her overall picture (spirituality, family, culture, tradition, understanding, approach, etc.)

Peace,
Alice


Well said, my sister!

Many years,

Neil


Indeed, well put.

I think that we all have to agree to disagree on a number of points here regarding where we of the Christian East stand on these important matters.

A couple of points - yes - the Patriarch can, and does, summon his Bishops for meetings. Patriarch Bartholomew has made this a regular practice in recent years. He can not, however, 'summon' for example the Archbishop of Cyprus or Prague to the Phanar as they are independent of his jurisdiction.

As to ACROD, I mentioned in an earlier post that our Bishop may not consecrate chrism - it must come from the EP. The late Bishop John (Martin) did so one year and received a clear message that he lacked the prerogative to do so. (I suspect that given his theological background and experience in the Pittsburgh BCC Eparchy, it was assumed that this was not an issue.)

One question: Are Ukrainian Greek Catholics in the 'diaspora' able to select their Bishops in Sobor through K'yiv or are they dependent upon Rome as are their BCC brothers? If the head of the UGCC is truly a Patriarch in the sense understood by us Orthodox and as asserted by Ukrainian Greek Catholics, how could Rome assert such a power? It seems patently inconsistent, does it not?
Posted By: StuartK

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/06/12 02:21 PM

The Bishop of Rome maintains that Eastern Catholic Churches of patriarchal or major archiepiscopal [sic] status may only elect bishops within their "canonical territory"; i.e., within the borders of the Austro-Hungarian and Ottoman Empires at the end of the 16th century. Apparently he takes an historical accident--that the "New World" was "discovered" by representatives of Catholic monarchies as a divine sanction to exercise jurisdiction over all of it.

Frankly, I say turnabout is fair play: Eastern Catholic patriarchs should have the power to appoint Latin bishops within the bounds of their own "canonical territory".
Posted By: DMD

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/06/12 02:54 PM

Originally Posted by StuartK
The Bishop of Rome maintains that Eastern Catholic Churches of patriarchal or major archiepiscopal [sic] status may only elect bishops within their "canonical territory"; i.e., within the borders of the Austro-Hungarian and Ottoman Empires at the end of the 16th century. Apparently he takes an historical accident--that the "New World" was "discovered" by representatives of Catholic monarchies as a divine sanction to exercise jurisdiction over all of it.

Frankly, I say turnabout is fair play: Eastern Catholic patriarchs should have the power to appoint Latin bishops within the bounds of their own "canonical territory".


So the answer comes back as always to 'universality' as dogmatized by Rome. Why then allow the different 'rites' to exist at all outside of their ancestral homelands? Perhaps a nod to the realization that most would have become Orthodox in new lands which might have spread to the ancestral ones? Just wondering.....

Also that is why the Orthodox can not view the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Patriarch as a Patriarch in Orthodox understanding. Just as the Orthodox Bishop of Muchachevo or Presov may not appoint a Bishop for ACROD or the former Metropolia in the pre-OCA days, the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Patriarch is similarly limited. He lacks the jurisdiction to so act.
Posted By: Jason D

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/06/12 07:32 PM

I guess that we are still Byzantine Catholic and not Orthodox only because we have not physically changed from a Byzantine Catholic parish to an Orthodox parish. Our family is on auto pilot. Our Church has lost everything over the years. We've lost the married priesthood. We've lost Vespers and Matins. And a few years ago we lost our Liturgy (with the mandate of the PC-RDL). All at the hands of our own bishops. Maybe it's time to turn off the auto-pilot and start visiting the local Orthodox parishes, find one we like, and join it. I mean, does anyone seriously think things will ever get better?
Posted By: Diak

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/06/12 08:16 PM

Quote
Also that is why the Orthodox can not view the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Patriarch as a Patriarch in Orthodox understanding. Just as the Orthodox Bishop of Muchachevo or Presov may not appoint a Bishop for ACROD or the former Metropolia in the pre-OCA days, the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Patriarch is similarly limited. He lacks the jurisdiction to so act.


There are Orthodox hierarchs who refer to +Sviatoslav as Patriarch. I'm not going to go into the lion's den of "canonical" and "non-canonical".

Quote
As to ACROD, I mentioned in an earlier post that our Bishop may not consecrate chrism - it must come from the EP.

I always assumed +Nicholas blessed the chrism and this is news to me. In a way it seems both the ACROD and BCCA are subject to "Rome" - BCCA to the "First Rome" and ACROD to the "Second Rome".
Posted By: Diak

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/06/12 08:57 PM

Quote
One question: Are Ukrainian Greek Catholics in the 'diaspora' able to select their Bishops in Sobor through K'yiv or are they dependent upon Rome as are their BCC brothers? If the head of the UGCC is truly a Patriarch in the sense understood by us Orthodox and as asserted by Ukrainian Greek Catholics, how could Rome assert such a power? It seems patently inconsistent, does it not?

The Synod in Kyiv decides the candidate with the Patriarch's approval. The name of the candidate is sent to Rome for "concurrance" for areas outside of "canonical territory" (whatever that is - our Church is on five continents now). The Melkites probably do something similar.

The last time Rome unilaterally appointed its own candidate over the Synod was the awful situation in Toronto between Kyr +Roman who was appointed by Rome and Kyr +Isidore who remained as bishop and who was the candidate of Patriarch +Josyp of blessed memory. Kyr +Roman was never really accepted by the clergy and people because he was a Rome appointee. Kyr +Isidore outlasted Kyr +Roman who eventually was recalled to Rome. Unfortunately strong leadership was not one of +Myroslav Ivan's talents, but our current and former Patriarchs have not had that weakness.
Posted By: Pavloosh

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/06/12 09:37 PM

Slava Isusu Christu!
One does not need to look only to an Orthodox parish when we have parishes which are beautiful, heritage rich and spiritually rich Eastern Catholic parishes such as the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, the Melkite Greek Catholic, etc.
Perhaps there's such a parish near you Jason.
Slava Na Vike!
Posted By: DTBrown

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/07/12 12:32 AM

Originally Posted by DMD

One question: Are Ukrainian Greek Catholics in the 'diaspora' able to select their Bishops in Sobor through K'yiv or are they dependent upon Rome as are their BCC brothers? If the head of the UGCC is truly a Patriarch in the sense understood by us Orthodox and as asserted by Ukrainian Greek Catholics, how could Rome assert such a power? It seems patently inconsistent, does it not?


The UGCC is not yet officially a Patriarchal Church. Both it and the Romanian Greek Catholic Church are considered to be Major Archbishop Churches, which is one step down from a Patriarchal church. So, as Diak has explained, Rome is still involved in the appointment of bishops.

In all Eastern Catholic Patriarchal Churches such as the Melkites or Coptic Catholics, bishops are chosen from a list of names pre-approved by Rome -- this is the procedure for eparchies inside the traditional territories. As I understand, the Melkite Church has petitioned Rome to change this to get more autonomy in the selection of bishops.
Posted By: Jason D

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/07/12 02:12 AM

Originally Posted by Pavloosh
Slava Isusu Christu!
One does not need to look only to an Orthodox parish when we have parishes which are beautiful, heritage rich and spiritually rich Eastern Catholic parishes such as the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, the Melkite Greek Catholic, etc.
Perhaps there's such a parish near you Jason.
Slava Na Vike!

Because I don't believe for a minute that any other Greek Catholic Church is going to be allowed to keep its own liturgical traditions. Father David Petras has said the these other Churches will soon all adopt the Revised Divine Liturgy. mad
Posted By: Diak

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/07/12 01:43 PM

Quote
The UGCC is not yet officially a Patriarchal Church.

Whatever "officially" means - I suppose only in the eyes of a few in Rome. We commemorate him as Patriarch every Liturgy (lex orandi), other Orthodox hierarchs refer to him as Patriarch, and even other Roman bishops and cardinals have referred to him as Patriarch (I heard Cardinal George call him that at the Patriarchal Divine Liturgy in Chicago).
Posted By: Diak

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/07/12 01:45 PM

Jason, where did you get that misinformation? Our Synod declared and reiterated the official "Ruthenian Rescension" books from the 1950s as normative only a few years ago, and only two years ago Patriarch +Lubomyr blessed the Anthology which is based on the 1988 Synodal translation, itself derived from the Rescension books, to be the definitive volume for music and texts for the English celebrations of our Liturgy. We are just now starting to get things somewhat standardized in English and aren't about to go down some other road.
Posted By: DTBrown

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/07/12 02:18 PM

Originally Posted by Diak
Quote
The UGCC is not yet officially a Patriarchal Church.

Whatever "officially" means - I suppose only in the eyes of a few in Rome. We commemorate him as Patriarch every Liturgy (lex orandi), other Orthodox hierarchs refer to him as Patriarch, and even other Roman bishops and cardinals have referred to him as Patriarch (I heard Cardinal George call him that at the Patriarchal Divine Liturgy in Chicago).


I didn't mean to slight the UGCC on this and it wasn't my main point. As far as I know, the "few in Rome" who do not refer to the UGCC as a Patriarchal Church include the Eastern Congregation and the Pope. Almost everyone else, including myself, does refer it as a Patriarchal Church.

Unless the canons are amended (as per the current Melkite request), even if the UGCC fully becomes a Patriarchal Church election of bishops will come from a list of names pre-approved in Rome (presumably at the Eastern Congregation).
Posted By: Diak

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/07/12 02:29 PM

Quote
election of bishops will come from a list of names pre-approved in Rome (presumably at the Eastern Congregation).

At least in our case the "pre-approval" and the approval comes from the Synod. Rome concurs or can theoretically disapprove and appoint another candidate, but as I mentioned the last time that happened was in Toronto in '92. After that snafu which happened just as our Church was emerging from the catacombs without a strong Patriarch, I don't think anyone in Rome or Kyiv ever foresees that happening again. What is on paper may be one thing, but what is reality is sometimes different.
Posted By: DMD

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/07/12 02:52 PM

Originally Posted by Diak
Quote
election of bishops will come from a list of names pre-approved in Rome (presumably at the Eastern Congregation).

At least in our case the "pre-approval" and the approval comes from the Synod. Rome concurs or can theoretically disapprove and appoint another candidate, but as I mentioned the last time that happened was in Toronto in '92. After that snafu which happened just as our Church was emerging from the catacombs without a strong Patriarch, I don't think anyone in Rome or Kyiv ever foresees that happening again. What is on paper may be one thing, but what is reality is sometimes different.



And that very point is what started these recent discussions following the remarks from the head of the Eastern Congregation last month. His remarks shook many ecumenically minded Orthodox scholars and lay people deeply as they reflect back to the concept of reunion upon terms of submission - not brotherly rapprochement. If, as one poster alluded to earlier, if one Pope is not bound by the word of a predeccesor Pope, what trust may we Orthodox put in any documents or agreements or understanding we may reach - and what real trust can Eastern Catholics expect to receive in recognition to their admirable loyalty to the Holy See - particularly in the face of Communist oppression and American Latin-rite hostility in the 20th century?
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/07/12 03:34 PM

Originally Posted by Paul B
Originally Posted by Diak
Quote
Any links on the Pallium? That would not sit well with the Orthodox.

There are certain consequences of being a "metropolitan Church sui iuris". In the ecclesiastical dimension it means Rome appoints the Metropolitan (and by extension all of the hierarchs). In addition to the citarions of canon law, receiving the Pallium is in a sense an affirmation of the ecclesiastical reality of that particular Church. It doesn't surprise, shock, or dismay me.



Amen to that. I wish that the Metropolitan receiving the pallium was our greatest concern. It probably ranks down below the top 25.


Not meaing to go off on a tangent, but what about the Eparchy of Newton? Did Archbishop Cyril receive a pallium from the Pope, or from the Melkite Patriarch, or neither?
Posted By: Diak

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/07/12 03:37 PM

I hope that Churches actually acting as patriarchal Churches (sometimes in spite of Roman old-school comments like those above) shows that at least on the level of two particular Churches (Melkite and UGCC) we are starting to get serious about this.

The ACROD situation puzzles me somewhat along the lines of this discussion. If an Administrator from the GOA can be appointed for ACROD, what does that mean in terms of ecclesiastical autonomy or identity? It may be my unfamiliarity with ACROD, but the UOC-USA does not appear to have to operate under this level of administration from Constantinople or the Greek Archdiocese, and Metropolitan +Constantine of blessed memory, not the GOA primate, was the primary consecrator of +Daniel.

Getting back to my previous observation, it seems both the BCCA and ACROD are reliant on "Rome", whether the first or the second. I also suppose parallels can also be drawn to the names of the candidate primate of ACROD having to be sent to the Ecumenical Patriarchate for approval.
Posted By: DMD

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/07/12 04:38 PM

Originally Posted by Diak
I hope that Churches actually acting as patriarchal Churches (sometimes in spite of Roman old-school comments like those above) shows that at least on the level of two particular Churches (Melkite and UGCC) we are starting to get serious about this.

The ACROD situation puzzles me somewhat along the lines of this discussion. If an Administrator from the GOA can be appointed for ACROD, what does that mean in terms of ecclesiastical autonomy or identity? It may be my unfamiliarity with ACROD, but the UOC-USA does not appear to have to operate under this level of administration from Constantinople or the Greek Archdiocese, and Metropolitan +Constantine of blessed memory, not the GOA primate, was the primary consecrator of +Daniel.

Getting back to my previous observation, it seems both the BCCA and ACROD are reliant on "Rome", whether the first or the second. I also suppose parallels can also be drawn to the names of the candidate primate of ACROD having to be sent to the Ecumenical Patriarchate for approval.


I can add some light to Diak's questions, which are fair - and on the minds on many, I might add.

As a self-ruling Diocese in what the EP calls the 'dispora', ACROD is entitled to elect its own Ruling Bishop through a Sobor/Assembly of its priests in good standing. The candidate must be a priest of at least five years' experience, over the age of 30 and in 'full communion' with the Ecumenical Throne.

Upon the selection of such a priest, the nomination goes to the Holy Synod of the Ecumenical Patriarch for approval. Upon that approval, the candidate may be consecrated as Bishop and enthroned. Following his enthronement, he is in no way dependent upon the EP for any internal matters within the Diocese, albeit he lacks the power to consecrate chrism - which is reserved to the head of the ruling autocephalous church. In the cases of ACROD and the UOC-USA, that is the EP.

The appointment of a locum tenens to temporarily administer the ACROD in the case of a vacancy in the position of a Ruling Bishop, in the absence of an existing auxiliary Bishop, is within the power of the Exarch of the EP - the Archbishop of America, i.e. the head of GOARCH.

The UOC-USA accepted the same terms and conditions as are contained in the Tomos accepting ACROD when they sought the omophor of the Ecumenical Throne. In the case of the vacancy of Metropolitan Constantine, of thrice-blessed memory, they had an existing plan of succession with two existing bishops - Bishop Daniel of Chicago and Archbishop Antony of Bound Brook so there was no need for an outside 'locum tenens.'

There is a good reason why the methodologies of administration Eastern Catholic churches and Orthodox churches are superficially similar in that in spite of the legalistic differentiations found within in our respective eccelesiologies, the western and eastern Churches operate in systems which evolved from the same roots. The issues over the universality of the power of the Papacy and infallibility are what divide us. The devil, of course, is in the details.

Within an Orthodox Diocese, there exists the right to select a candidate for episcopal elevation. In some jurisdictions there is a sobor of the clergy, as in ACROD, in others such as the OCA, there is a sobor of the laity and clergy with candidates vetted by the Synod of the OCA Bishops presented for consideration. In all of these cases, the selection of the candidate must be affirmed by the ruling Synod of the mother church. The difference between say the selection of a Patriarch for Serbia is that the Synod of the Serbian Church would have the final say in such an election without the need to go to Constantinople for ratification. This differentiates the election of a Patriarch for the UGCC Church from the election of an Orthodox Patriarch in that the UGCC candidate must be ratified by the Holy Father.

If there are aliens following this on some sort of intergalactic Twitter they must be shaking their heads and wonder about us Earthlings.

One more thing, the candidate for the new Ruling Bishop was not 'pushed' on us by the Greeks. We simply did not have a celibate or widowed priest who was either willing or capable to succeed Metropolitan Nicholas. It is clear from the press release issued by the Chancery in Johnstown that this concern would be on the minds of many. It is important to note the following paragraph:

"Father Grigorios is American-born of parents of Greek origin. He is currently serving as Dean of the Holy Trinity Greek Orthodox Cathedral in New Orleans, LA. He is a well-educated and well-respected priest who is willing to accept the call to lead the Diocese in the years to come in accordance with all its venerable Carpatho-Russian traditions, which under the omophorion of the Ecumenical Patriarchate have been preserved at the highest level of respect and honor."


It should be noted that his current parish in New Orleans has a significant number of Slavs among its members and that at Pascha, baskets are blessed there in accord with Slavic traditions.
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/07/12 05:27 PM

Originally Posted by Peter J
Originally Posted by Paul B
Originally Posted by Diak
Quote
Any links on the Pallium? That would not sit well with the Orthodox.

There are certain consequences of being a "metropolitan Church sui iuris". In the ecclesiastical dimension it means Rome appoints the Metropolitan (and by extension all of the hierarchs). In addition to the citarions of canon law, receiving the Pallium is in a sense an affirmation of the ecclesiastical reality of that particular Church. It doesn't surprise, shock, or dismay me.



Amen to that. I wish that the Metropolitan receiving the pallium was our greatest concern. It probably ranks down below the top 25.


Not meaing to go off on a tangent, but what about the Eparchy of Newton? Did Archbishop Cyril receive a pallium from the Pope, or from the Melkite Patriarch, or neither?


Sorry, I mean Archbishop Nicholas.
Posted By: DTBrown

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/07/12 10:35 PM

Originally Posted by Diak
Quote
election of bishops will come from a list of names pre-approved in Rome (presumably at the Eastern Congregation).


At least in our case the "pre-approval" and the approval comes from the Synod. Rome concurs or can theoretically disapprove and appoint another candidate, but as I mentioned the last time that happened was in Toronto in '92. After that snafu which happened just as our Church was emerging from the catacombs without a strong Patriarch, I don't think anyone in Rome or Kyiv ever foresees that happening again. What is on paper may be one thing, but what is reality is sometimes different.


Diak,

As I understand the canons from CCEO, it works this way:

In a Major Archbishop Church (such as the UGCC and the Romanian Greek Catholic Church), the appointment of Bishops works differently than in a Patriarchal Church. Rome has review of the suggested appointment after the Synod proposes the name (canon 168). In a Major Archbishop Church, the appointment of the Major Archbishop himself is confirmed by Rome (Canon 153).

In a Patriarchal Church (such as the Melkite Greek Catholic or the Coptic Catholic), the review by Rome is beforehand by developing a list of possible names which has been already received prior approval from Rome who then become candidates for episcopal elections (Canons 181-186). (This is the procedure which the Melkite Church has asked to be changed.) The election of a Patriarch (as long as he was already a bishop) does not require the consent of the Pope (canons 76 and 77). If the Patriarchal Synod elects someone who was not already a bishop (which would be highly unlikely), the person must first be elected a bishop which would then go back to the pre-approved list from Rome (canon 73).
Posted By: DTBrown

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/07/12 10:47 PM

Originally Posted by DMD

Within an Orthodox Diocese, there exists the right to select a candidate for episcopal elevation. In some jurisdictions there is a sobor of the clergy, as in ACROD, in others such as the OCA, there is a sobor of the laity and clergy with candidates vetted by the Synod of the OCA Bishops presented for consideration. In all of these cases, the selection of the candidate must be affirmed by the ruling Synod of the mother church.


As I understand things, the OCA does not have its candidates affirmed outside of the OCA since it is an autocephalous Church. True, the autocephaly is not universally recognized in Orthodoxy (though it canonical status is not disputed), but the elections of metropolitans and bishops in the OCA are handled internally.
Posted By: DMD

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/08/12 01:51 PM

Originally Posted by DTBrown
Originally Posted by DMD

Within an Orthodox Diocese, there exists the right to select a candidate for episcopal elevation. In some jurisdictions there is a sobor of the clergy, as in ACROD, in others such as the OCA, there is a sobor of the laity and clergy with candidates vetted by the Synod of the OCA Bishops presented for consideration. In all of these cases, the selection of the candidate must be affirmed by the ruling Synod of the mother church.


As I understand things, the OCA does not have its candidates affirmed outside of the OCA since it is an autocephalous Church. True, the autocephaly is not universally recognized in Orthodoxy (though it canonical status is not disputed), but the elections of metropolitans and bishops in the OCA are handled internally.


That is correct. The head of an autonomous or authcephelous church does present his name to the other ruling Bishops of the sister churches for inclusion in the dyptychs - a formality and not a 'ratification'. The EP does not include the OCA as such, although other churches in communion with her do, such as the Church of the Czech and Slovak lands. (quite a name...)

As I observed, the aliens following us on their Twitters must shrug in confusion or amusement over such things.....
Posted By: Irish Melkite

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/09/12 07:55 AM

Originally Posted by Peter J
Originally Posted by Peter J
Not meaing to go off on a tangent, but what about the Eparchy of Newton? Did Archbishop Cyril receive a pallium from the Pope, or from the Melkite Patriarch, or neither?


Sorry, I mean Archbishop Nicholas.


Peter,

Sayedna Nicholas is a bishop, not archbishop. To the specific question, though, he is not a Metropolitan and the pallium is only ordinarily conferred on metropolitans, primates, and the Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem.

Many years,

Neil
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/09/12 12:49 PM

Dear friend and brother, thank you for that information. So, to see if I understand you right, did Archbishop Cyril Salim Bustros not receive a pallium either (back when he became Eparch of Newton in 2004)?
Posted By: Pavel Ivanovich

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/09/12 01:36 PM

No! He was never a Metroplitan requiring a Pallium.

cool
Posted By: DMD

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/09/12 02:12 PM

As I understand things, the pallium issue is not one of any great concern to the Orthodox, at least those engaged in ecumenical dialogue with the Roman Church.
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/09/12 02:20 PM

Originally Posted by Pavel Ivanovich
No! He was never a Metroplitan requiring a Pallium.

cool


Thanks, Pavel. That's what I was figuring, based on the previous information, but I wanted to ask rather than assume.

Actually, a better question (although less related to me, personally) would have been: whom did Archbishop Stefan Soroka receive a pallium from (assuming he did receive one I mean)?
Posted By: Diak

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/09/12 05:48 PM

Quote
As I understand things, the pallium issue is not one of any great concern to the Orthodox, at least those engaged in ecumenical dialogue with the Roman Church.


Indeed, honorifics are normally not big issues in larger ecumenical dialogue.
Posted By: StuartK

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/09/12 06:06 PM

Except for the One Big Honorific, which is the source of all disagreement.
Posted By: A Simple Sinner

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/10/12 10:57 PM

Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance
Originally Posted by Nelson Chase
Quote
To throw fuel on the fire Metropolitan William is heading to Rome to receive the Pallium.


What? Can you provide a link to this information? And did previous Metropolitans do the same?


No link, but I can confirm it. The Metropolitan stated this at Liturgy this past Sunday which I served with him. Metropolitans Stephen, Thomas, and Judson did. Metropolitan Basil I don't know but I am guessing yes.


I seem to recall that YES our recent metropolitan archbishops received a pallium from Rome... but the manner of reception - again IIRC - has become pro forma and distinctive. That is to say the Metropolitan is not vested with the pallium with Roman rite recipients, but rather presented a pallium in a distinctive and separate ceremony that better reflects an affirmation of communion by both parties.


**IF** my recollection is correct (I beleive Father Louis Rafai is the person with whom I spoke about this over 10 years ago - is he on here?) this was done in an effort to change the context of the receipt of the pallium from "Vestment by Rome" to recognition of the metropolitan dignity that reflects a gift from one hierarch to another.

For those who are especially concerned about the symbolism and possible meaning, it might be worth looking closer to see what is really so.

Perhaps an interested party on here could contact the Met. Archbishop's office?
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/11/12 03:07 AM

This is interesting...

Quote
In origin the pallium and the omophor are the same vestment. The omophor is a wide band of cloth, much larger than the modern pallium, worn by all Eastern Orthodox bishops and Eastern Catholic bishops of the Byzantine Rite.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pallium


So, if I'm understanding correctly, it seems that Metropolitan William will have both a pallium and an omophor.
Posted By: Irish Melkite

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/11/12 03:19 AM

Originally Posted by A Simple Sinner
I seem to recall that YES our recent metropolitan archbishops received a pallium from Rome... but the manner of reception - again IIRC - has become pro forma and distinctive. That is to say the Metropolitan is not vested with the pallium with Roman rite recipients, but rather presented a pallium in a distinctive and separate ceremony that better reflects an affirmation of communion by both parties.


**IF** my recollection is correct (I beleive Father Louis Rafai is the person with whom I spoke about this over 10 years ago - is he on here?) this was done in an effort to change the context of the receipt of the pallium from "Vestment by Rome" to recognition of the metropolitan dignity that reflects a gift from one hierarch to another.


Simple Sinner,

Good to see a post from you, my brother - it's been a long while.

I believe your recollection is correct as regards the presentation being done separately from that in which the Latin metropolitans receive the pallium. I'm not certain how far back that distinction was made - whether it originated with Metropolitan Basil or earlier but, now that you reference it, I remember likewise.

Many years,

Neil
Posted By: Irish Melkite

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/11/12 04:48 AM

Ok - tracked it down - somewhat. The pallium is ordinarily presented at the Papal Mass on the Feast od Saints Peter & Paul

Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance
Metropolitan Judson received his pallium the day after in private ceremony instead of the Papal Mass because the Ecumenical Patriarch said he would boycott the Mass if a Byzantine metropolitan received the pallium at it.


Actually, as noted in a later post by our beloved friend and brother, Father Serge, of blessed memory, it was actually a public ceremony in the Sisine Chapel, private only in the sense that the majority of those in attendance were those who had traveled from Pittsburgh.

For earlier discussions, dating back to the time of Matropolitan Judson's repose and the naming of Metropolitan Basil, see:

Dates for new Bp/Met

and

Of Omophorions and Palliums

As to whether or not Metropolitan Basil, of blessed memory, also received the pallium separately from the Latin metropolitans, I can't find anything definitive.

Originally Posted by A Simp;e Sinner
**IF** my recollection is correct ... this was done in an effort to change the context of the receipt of the pallium from "Vestment by Rome" to recognition of the metropolitan dignity that reflects a gift from one hierarch to another.


Unfortunately, I guess that we can revise thinking along those lines. More like - 'this was done out of a sense of understanding that it was not in the best interests of promoting the spirit that incites the meeting of Pope and Ecumenical Patriarch on the Feast of Ss Peter and Paul' - read that as 'best not to upset the honored guest'

Many years,

Neil
Posted By: StuartK

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/11/12 03:05 PM

Father Serge also mentioned that while the Pope put the Pallium on the Latin Metropolitans, he merely handed it to Metropolitan Judson.
Posted By: haydukovich

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/11/12 05:26 PM

Canon 412

1. All religious are subject to the Roman Pontiff as their

supreme superior, being bound by the obligation to obey him also

in virtue of the vow of obedience. 2. In order to provide

better for the welfare of institutes and for the needs of the

apostolate, the Roman Pontiff can by reason of his primacy over

the universal Church, contemplating the common welfare, exempt

institutes of consecrated life from the rule of the eparchial

bishop and subject them to him alone or to another ecclesiastical

authority.


Posted By: A Simple Sinner

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/11/12 06:47 PM

Originally Posted by Irish Melkite

Originally Posted by A Simp;e Sinner
**IF** my recollection is correct ... this was done in an effort to change the context of the receipt of the pallium from "Vestment by Rome" to recognition of the metropolitan dignity that reflects a gift from one hierarch to another.


Unfortunately, I guess that we can revise thinking along those lines. More like - 'this was done out of a sense of understanding that it was not in the best interests of promoting the spirit that incites the meeting of Pope and Ecumenical Patriarch on the Feast of Ss Peter and Paul' - read that as 'best not to upset the honored guest'

Many years,

Neil


With all the years that had passed, I completely forgot the detail of the EP being present on the feast of Ss P&P. That jogs the memory!

Originally Posted by StuartK
Father Serge also mentioned that while the Pope put the Pallium on the Latin Metropolitans, he merely handed it to Metropolitan Judson.


Yes, that is how I recall hearing how it went!
Posted By: A Simple Sinner

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/12/12 02:35 AM

Originally Posted by haydukovich
Canon 412

1. All religious are subject to the Roman Pontiff as their
supreme superior, being bound by the obligation to obey him also
in virtue of the vow of obedience. 2. In order to provide
better for the welfare of institutes and for the needs of the
apostolate, the Roman Pontiff can by reason of his primacy over
the universal Church, contemplating the common welfare, exempt
institutes of consecrated life from the rule of the eparchial
bishop and subject them to him alone or to another ecclesiastical
authority.


Perhaps I missed something in reviewing this thread. Can you say more about why you posted this?
Posted By: Irish Melkite

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/12/12 09:05 AM

Originally Posted by A Simple Sinner
Originally Posted by haydukovich
Canon 412

1. All religious are subject to the Roman Pontiff as their
supreme superior, being bound by the obligation to obey him also
in virtue of the vow of obedience. 2. In order to provide
better for the welfare of institutes and for the needs of the
apostolate, the Roman Pontiff can by reason of his primacy over
the universal Church, contemplating the common welfare, exempt
institutes of consecrated life from the rule of the eparchial
bishop and subject them to him alone or to another ecclesiastical
authority.


Perhaps I missed something in reviewing this thread. Can you say more about why you posted this?


I suspect that John may have meant to post this to a current thread in Church News titled "Embracing Celibacy follow-up" which was discussing a monastery, but I could be wrong.

Many years,

Neil
Posted By: Curious Joe

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/13/12 04:24 PM

just noticed this on the Archeparchy website @
Archieparchial EVENTS (check back for updates!)

June 29 – Friday
Feast of the Holy Apostles Peter and Paul
CHANCERY CLOSED
Archbishop William receives Pallium/Omophor in Rome
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/13/12 05:16 PM

Thanks for that info, Curious Joe. Incidentally, I think this is the first time I've seen it put that way (Pallium/Omophor).
Posted By: Herbigny

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/13/12 09:24 PM

Did someone say Metropolitan Stefan Soroka (UGCC in the US) accepted a pallium?
I would be surprised.
I am pretty certain the last couple UGCC Metropolitans of Canada did not accept a pallium.
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/14/12 03:40 AM

Originally Posted by Herbigny
Did someone say Metropolitan Stefan Soroka (UGCC in the US) accepted a pallium?


I asked, earlier, whether he did; but I don't think anyone has yet answered one way or the other.
Posted By: A Simple Sinner

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/19/12 12:07 AM

Originally Posted by Peter J
Originally Posted by Herbigny
Did someone say Metropolitan Stefan Soroka (UGCC in the US) accepted a pallium?


I asked, earlier, whether he did; but I don't think anyone has yet answered one way or the other.



Easy enough to call or write the chancery to find out what is so.

827 North Franklin Street
Philadelphia, PA 19123
(215) 627-0143
Posted By: Edmundia

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/19/12 10:53 AM

I was very attracted to orthodoxy when I was eighteen and saw it as (I know false) between Rome and Anglicanims. I went to see a Russian priest who was very friendly,welcoming and kind, but he told me I could never become truly Orthodox unless I was from a Russian or "Orthodox Nation". I then found that Roman Catholicism can and does adapt to many and a huge varieties of styles, cultures,arts,buildings,nations, classes. I have lived in Ireland where I found Catholicism with an irish brogue and national style and now I live in England and am trying to discover and unearth (there is in the old College I teach in) the English Catholic spirit. Catholicism seems to inculturate (in the best sense of the word) sadly, I don't think Orthodoxy does. I do not really find in general, the art of Icons helpful and attractive. That's maybe my fault.
Posted By: Athanasius The L

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/19/12 12:43 PM

Originally Posted by Edmundia
I was very attracted to orthodoxy when I was eighteen and saw it as (I know false) between Rome and Anglicanims. I went to see a Russian priest who was very friendly,welcoming and kind, but he told me I could never become truly Orthodox unless I was from a Russian or "Orthodox Nation". I then found that Roman Catholicism can and does adapt to many and a huge varieties of styles, cultures,arts,buildings,nations, classes. I have lived in Ireland where I found Catholicism with an irish brogue and national style and now I live in England and am trying to discover and unearth (there is in the old College I teach in) the English Catholic spirit. Catholicism seems to inculturate (in the best sense of the word) sadly, I don't think Orthodoxy does. I do not really find in general, the art of Icons helpful and attractive. That's maybe my fault.


First of all, what the priest said to you was incorrect. One need not be from a Russian or "Orthodox nation" to become truly Orthodox. Second, one will never understand or appreciate the important role of icons in Orthodox spirituality if they are viewed as religious art. Blessed icons are sacramental, and make real for the believer the presence of who or what they depict.
Posted By: Edmundia

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/20/12 07:49 AM

Indeed, I know that I cons are a "sacramental", but they are also written in a particular style, proper to the nations in which Holy Orthodoxy is found. I find that Roman Catholicism can take its cultural form and expression in many varied styles (especially art) of both period and nation and somehow fit. My feeling - and it's only a feeling - (although many Orthodox have said it to me) that Orthodoxy seems to be most clearly expressed in Eastern forms and "dress". Western rite orthodoxy might be the answer - and I know little about it. The priest who said this to me was a venerable and ancient priest of Russia. He was expressing his opinion only, but it did make me think......
Posted By: Recluse

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/20/12 01:03 PM

Originally Posted by haydukovich
Unless someone can convince me otherwise - I am considering converting from Eastern Catholic to Orthodoxy - I do not see the advantages to practicing an Eastern religion under the heavy hand of Latinization. I am currently waiting for 1 year to make sure I'm not just jumping ship. I also wonder if I am jumping ship - am I jumping ship because it is going to sink?


Slava Isusu Christu!

It is a decision you must make with great discernment. I was Latin Catholic for 38 years and Ruthenian Catholic for eight years before the move to Holy Orthodoxy. It tooks years of prayer and discernment, but it was the right decision for my family. We are in great peace now.
Posted By: DTBrown

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 06/23/12 02:17 PM

Originally Posted by Diak
Quote
election of bishops will come from a list of names pre-approved in Rome (presumably at the Eastern Congregation).

At least in our case the "pre-approval" and the approval comes from the Synod. Rome concurs or can theoretically disapprove and appoint another candidate, but as I mentioned the last time that happened was in Toronto in '92. After that snafu which happened just as our Church was emerging from the catacombs without a strong Patriarch, I don't think anyone in Rome or Kyiv ever foresees that happening again. What is on paper may be one thing, but what is reality is sometimes different.


Diak,

I came across this article this morning by Jimmy Akin on the selection of Eastern Catholic bishops. While he's no authority on the Eastern Church he does note some recent appointments of bishops in the Maronite Church from the Vatican Information Service blog:

Quote
The Synod of Bishops of the Maronite Church has elected the following archbishops and bishops, all of whom have received prior assent from the Holy Father:

- Fr. Moussa El-Hage O.A.M., superior of the convent of Sts. Sarkis and Bacchus in Edhen and Zghorta, as archbishop of Haifa and the Holy Land of the Maronites (Catholics 7,000, priests 11, religious 9), Israel, and as patriarchal exarch of Jerusalem and Palestine (Catholics 504, permanent deacons 1) and Jordan (Catholics 1,500, priests 2). The bishop-elect was born in Antoura, Lebanon in 1954 and ordained a priest in 1980. He studied in Jerusalem and in Rome and has held various offices in his religious order as well as being active in pastoral work and education. He succeeds Archbishop Paul Nabil El-Sayah, who had earlier resigned from the pastoral care of those circumscriptions to take up the office of bishop of the Patriarchal Curia.

- Fr. Paul Rouhana O.L.M., secretary of the Middle East Council of Churches, as bishop of the patriarchal vicariate of Sarba, Lebanon. The bishop-elect was born in Amchit, Lebanon in 1954 and ordained a priest in 1982. He studied in Belgium and in France and been active in education at "Saint Esprit" University in Kaslik. He succeeds Bishop Guy-Paul Noujaim, who resigned from the pastoral care of the same archdiocese in accordance with canon 210 para. 1-2 of the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches.

- Fr. Maroun Ammar, rector of the major seminary of Ghazir, as bishop of the patriarchal vicariate of Joubbe, Lebanon. The bishop-elect was born in Haje, Lebanon in 1956 and ordained a priest in 1983. He has served as pastor in various parishes and is a judge at the Court of Appeal of the Maronite Tribunal of Lebanon. He succeeds Bishop Francis Baissari, who resigned from the pastoral care of the same archdiocese in accordance with canon 210 para. 1-2 of the Code of Canons of the Eastern Churches.

- Fr. Joseph Mouawad, vicar general of the eparchy of Jbeil-Byblos, Lebanon, as bishop of the Patriarchal Curia. The bishop-elect was born in Mayfouq, Lebanon in 1970 and ordained a priest in 1995. He studied in Rome and has been active in pastoral work, as well as teaching theology at "La Sagesse" University in Beirut and "Saint Esprit" University in Kaslik.

- Fr. Georges Chihane, patriarchal administrator of Haifa and the Holy Land of the Maronites, Israel, and patriarchal exarch of Jerusalem, Palestine and Jordan, as eparchal vicar of Cairo, Egypt and Sudan of the Maronites (Catholics 5,500, priests 6, religious 3). The bishop-elect was born in Haret Sakhr, Lebanon in 1953 and ordained a priest in 1979. He has served as pastor in various parishes in Lebanon, France and Jordan.


Doesn't this confirm what we discussed earlier about how the selection of Bishops occurs under the CCEO? Perhaps I misunderstood you but I thought you were trying to say it was different for the UGCC. If so, why would it be different for the UGCC when the Maronite Church (also a Patriarchal Church) has the men who may be selected as bishops pre-approved by the Pope?
Posted By: A Simple Sinner

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 07/28/12 08:41 PM

Originally Posted by haydukovich
From my current viewpoint - there is no reason to remain Eastern Catholic.

Unless someone can convince me otherwise - I am considering converting from Eastern Catholic to Orthodoxy - I do not see the advantages to practicing an Eastern religion under the heavy hand of Latinization.


I can agree well enough with this. If this is your paradigm, you will always be uncomfortable. If your focus is always drawn to this narrative/view, you will never be happy with it.

Is there another way to look at the value of being Greek Catholic or Orthodox that does not rely on on rejection of a subjective paradigm ("I choose 'X' is good because it is NOT 'Y'") but rather going to something because it is what it is? ("I choose 'Y' because I choose 'Y'")
Posted By: Arbanon

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 07/28/12 11:59 PM

Originally Posted by Alice
How can either side of the cultural divide be the 'true church' when one bishop (albeit the acknowleged seat of the 'first among equals') has gone it alone, and the remaining bishops have gone it alone without him?!?

One might say that the latter have adhered to traditions more closely and genuinely (the Orthodox) and truly they have.


I am afraid this is not the real picture of history, that one bishop, that of Rome, had gone its own way without the rest of the bishops (where the other four patriarchs are ment).

Neither was the bishop of Rome claiming to have the right to change traditions on account of st. Peters chair.

The more exact historical picture is that after the fifth century, after Chalcedon, we have a polarized christianity, which, with the Islamic conquest of the seventh century, became more sharp, that of western latin versus eastern greek.
The conflict is between two parts and not between one bishop of Rome versus four patriarchs.

The Roman side did not change tradition. It had developed its own tradition from the beginning and remained faithful to it developing it in face of eastern political and religious developments on the other side. Remember that starting from Constantinople I (381) down to Iconoclastic measures against Rome in the 8th century, east was developing its own identity in political alongside religious matters.
Posted By: Arbanon

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 07/29/12 12:22 AM

Originally Posted by haydukovich
I do not see the advantages to practicing an Eastern religion under the heavy hand of Latinization.


Within the slavic orthodoxy you might want to be converted to there is already a "heavy" hand of latinized orthodoxy. Russian orthodoxy is an example.

However, I think there is a crucial point to understand in fron of such questions you face. You are either eastern catholic because you understand and see it as spiritually vital and essential the communion with the pope as the head of the church or otherwise there is really no point to be an eastern catholic.
Posted By: theDailyIchtys

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 08/08/12 01:44 PM

You have received many answers for your question. I am going to give you the reason I remain Catholic, despite the problems we see today. I apologize if I am only repeating what has already been said.

My belief is that to be steeped in History is to cease being anything but Catholic. It is important to me that when looking back we see that the Seat of Peter seems to have universal jurisdiction

[quote][quote]I believe that the Papacy makes logical sense and is a unique identifier that the Orthodox lack but was there from the beginning, I stay Catholic. I personally think it's great to have someone to put their foot down - I've noticed varying opinions on some more important things among the Orthodox that just *cannot* be solved with their current ecclesiology.[/quote][/quote]

I totally agree.

And as for problems with the Liturgy on the Eastern Catholic side, if Archimandrite Robert Taft can see past the difficulties so can I. Because If nothing of Doctrine is false, that means something of Doctrine is false in the Orthodox.

GOD Bless.
Posted By: Nelson Chase

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 08/08/12 06:56 PM

Quote
My belief is that to be steeped in History is to cease being anything but Catholic. It is important to me that when looking back we see that the Seat of Peter seems to have universal jurisdiction


Yet, one can read history and cease to be anything but Orthodox. The Universal Jurisdiction of the Bishop of Rome is not found in the Eastern Fathers of the Church. There is a big difference between what the fathers of the East see as Rome’s appellate role and the Latin idea of the Bishop of Rome as having Universal Jurisdiction over and above the Eastern Patriarchates. The west and the east, historically, have had two different ways of looking at the Roman primacy.

I think, for the time being, I remain a Byzantine Catholic because I see the need for a strong primacy (maybe not as strong as Rome has defined it).
Posted By: Lester S

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 08/08/12 07:33 PM

Honestly, if not for the Byzantine Catholic church I've been going to, I would have jumped to Orthodoxy. I wasn't aware of the apparent dichotomy between East,and West Christianity, until I encountered it, recently. I asked a friend if he had attended an Orthodox service, he then responded by asking me if I heard of Eastern Catholics. It was then, I started doing some research, and found a home in the Byzantine Catholic church I've been attending since the feast of St. John the Baptist.
Posted By: Diak

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 08/08/12 07:50 PM

Quote
While he's no authority on the Eastern Church

I would definitely agree with that statement.

Paragraph 3 of Canon 182 states "the synod of bishops of the patriarchal Church is to examine the names of the candidates and compile a list of the candidates by secret ballot, which is to be transmitted through the patriarch to the Apostolic See to obtain the assent of the Roman Pontiff." As to the Synod sending one name that it has chosen for the episcopacy, Paragraph 4 refers to a single candidate, not multiple or "list" of candidates when it refers to "The assent of the Roman Pontiff once given for an individual candidate..."

Canon 185 has the contingency if the candidate elected by the Synod is not on the so-called "pre-approved list".

The meaning of the word "assent" is certainly not the same as "to choose". Now, of course, this only holds for patriarchal Churches. Those churches of metropolitan or eparchial sui iuris status are directly dependent on Rome to actually choose the candidate since there is no Patriarch.

VIS and other Vatican news sources are not especially known for their familiarity with Eastern Catholic ecclesiological affairs.
Posted By: Arbanon

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 08/09/12 10:36 AM

For us, who consider both churches as valid, despite not denying the apparent schisma of centuries old between them, envy the chance the byzantine catholics have to be able to receive sacraments both according to latin and eastern byzantine rite.
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 08/09/12 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by Arbanon
, envy the chance the byzantine catholics have to be able to receive sacraments both according to latin and eastern byzantine rite.


I don't really follow you. Latin Catholics are just as capable of receiving the eucharist in any sui iuris church.
Posted By: Lester S

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 08/09/12 11:56 AM

Originally Posted by Peter J
Originally Posted by Arbanon
, envy the chance the byzantine catholics have to be able to receive sacraments both according to latin and eastern byzantine rite.


I don't really follow you. Latin Catholics are just as capable of receiving the eucharist in any sui iuris church.


Peter, I think he's referring to Orthodox brethren, in that we can commune with the 22 other churches, while they can't. At least, that's what I'm getting.
Posted By: Arbanon

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 08/09/12 12:15 PM

Yes, of course, If one sees my profile, being an orthodox, the way you understood me, Lester S, is correct.
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 08/09/12 01:05 PM

Yes, but it just sounded a little strange that you said "envy the chance the Byzantine Catholics have to", rather than just saying "envy the chance the Catholics have to" etc. No big deal of course; I probably shouldn't have even said anything.

But I take your point: in Orthodoxy the Western Rite (WRO) is rare -- even in the USA, I'm guessing it doesn't exist at all in Albania -- so, in effect, there's generally only one "rite" that (most) Orthodox can receive the sacraments in.
Posted By: StuartK

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 08/09/12 02:18 PM

Quote
Peter, I think he's referring to Orthodox brethren, in that we can commune with the 22 other churches, while they can't. At least, that's what I'm getting.


Any Orthodox can receive in any other canonical Orthodox Church, of which there are fifteen last time I looked.
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 08/09/12 02:33 PM

Originally Posted by StuartK
Quote
Peter, I think he's referring to Orthodox brethren, in that we can commune with the 22 other churches, while they can't. At least, that's what I'm getting.


Any Orthodox can receive in any other canonical Orthodox Church, of which there are fifteen last time I looked.


True -- I almost pointed that out myself; but I figured that Arbanon's post (the one Lester and I were responding to) was about liturgical diversity ("... both according to latin and eastern byzantine rite").
Posted By: Arbanon

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 08/09/12 03:36 PM

Among byzantine christians, those known as byzantine catholics, differed from those called orthodox on the point of unity towards Rome, are able, alongside cultivating their eastern byzantine tradition, to be in communion with Rome and its latin rite christianity, whereas the orthodox not.
Among the orthodox christians, those who do consider the roman church neither heretical, nor with invald sacraments, who simply accept the schisma as it is introduced, as a matter of fact and not of choice, and would have no problem to enjoy that common communion, envy that chance the byzantine catholics have.
It is not simply western rite that is missed, but western rite as it is lived through legitimate roman church and its head.

Usually it is simply the selfsufficing national christianity of many orthodox nations (especially greeks, serbs and russians), that keeps their orthodox members indifferent towards a neccessity of unity with Rome too.

I would like to care no less about Photius versus pope Nicholas conflict than did Cyril and Methodius, as did Peter of Antioch in the case of Cerularius versus Leo IX!
Posted By: StuartK

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 08/09/12 04:11 PM

Quote
Among byzantine christians, those known as byzantine catholics, differed from those called orthodox on the point of unity towards Rome, are able, alongside cultivating their eastern byzantine tradition, to be in communion with Rome and its latin rite christianity, whereas the orthodox not.

Don't idealize this communion. It has tended to work more in one direction than the other, and usually to the benefit of just one party. After all, until quite recently, Latin Catholics were not permitted to receive the Eucharist from Greek Catholic priests (Metropolitan Andrij had to get a special dispensation to give his parents communion when he was ordained a priest--and then he had to do so in private, after the Liturgy, using a presanctified Host consecrated by a Latin priest). Latin Catholic women were either forbidden or seriously discouraged from marrying Greek Catholic men (but not vice versa), and of course, serious restrictions were placed on the Greek Catholic Tradition outside the boundaries of the Ottoman and Russian Empires at the end of the 17th century.

Quote
It is not simply western rite that is missed, but western rite as it is lived through legitimate roman church and its head.


Which "Western rite"? Old Roman? Romano-Frankish, New Roman? Ambrosian? Mozerabic? Gallic? Dominican?

And when do we Greek Catholics get to follow the Byzantine rite as it is lived through its own legitimate Mother Churches?

Just asking.
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 08/09/12 05:04 PM

Originally Posted by Arbanon
Among byzantine christians, those known as byzantine catholics, differed from those called orthodox on the point of unity towards Rome, are able, alongside cultivating their eastern byzantine tradition, to be in communion with Rome and its latin rite christianity, whereas the orthodox not.
Among the orthodox christians, those who do consider the roman church neither heretical, nor with invald sacraments, who simply accept the schisma as it is introduced, as a matter of fact and not of choice, and would have no problem to enjoy that common communion, envy that chance the byzantine catholics have.
It is not simply western rite that is missed, but western rite as it is lived through legitimate roman church and its head.


Hi again. Sorry if I misunderstood you earlier. From your latest post, this is starting to sound like a "Grass is always greener on the other side of the fence" thing. I would just echo what Stuart said a few hours ago:

Originally Posted by StuartK
Quote
Peter, I think he's referring to Orthodox brethren, in that we can commune with the 22 other churches, while they can't. At least, that's what I'm getting.

Any Orthodox can receive in any other canonical Orthodox Church, of which there are fifteen last time I looked.
Posted By: haydukovich

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 08/09/12 07:20 PM

don't underestimate the ex-communication between the Orthdox Churches from each other.

The 15 churches may be the Churches under SCOBA - there are others ... there are droves of Orthodox Churches who have ex-communicated each other.

Another thing I find very curious in the Eastern Catholics is the almost universal reverence they pay to the Coptic Orthodox which are ex-communicated from SCOBA (and MOST Orthodox churches) unless I am mistaken (3 ecumenical councils vs 7)

The Coptics are rarely criticized as if they have some basic secret and better religion ... they are farther from CATHOLIC than almost any other are they not?

I don't know anything about the Coptics (other than visiting their churches in Egypt) except from what I have heard about them - but they are NOT in union with anyone else as far as I can see.

Orthodoxy is not in UNION with each other in the same way that Roman Catholics understand UNION.

My point is Orthodoxy is as much an INSIDE JOB (how you live) as it is an affliation with an Ethnic Church or any church claiming to be in union through SCOBA or some other measure of union.
Posted By: Athanasius The L

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 08/09/12 07:35 PM

Originally Posted by haydukovich
don't underestimate the ex-communication between the Orthdox Churches from each other.

The 15 churches may be the Churches under SCOBA - there are others ... there are droves of Orthodox Churches who have ex-communicated each other.

Another thing I find very curious in the Eastern Catholics is the almost universal reverence they pay to the Coptic Orthodox which are ex-communicated from SCOBA (and MOST Orthodox churches) unless I am mistaken (3 ecumenical councils vs 7)

The Coptics are rarely criticized as if they have some basic secret and better religion ... they are farther from CATHOLIC than almost any other are they not?

I don't know anything about the Coptics (other than visiting their churches in Egypt) except from what I have heard about them - but they are NOT in union with anyone else as far as I can see.

Orthodoxy is not in UNION with each other in the same way that Roman Catholics understand UNION.

My point is Orthodoxy is as much an INSIDE JOB (how you live) as it is an affliation with an Ethnic Church or any church claiming to be in union through SCOBA or some other measure of union.


The Coptic Orthodox are not part of the Eastern Orthodox communion of churches, but it is not the case that they are not in communion with any other church. They are part of the Oriental Orthodox (non-Chalcedonion) communion of churches.
Posted By: Arbanon

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 08/09/12 07:53 PM

If orthodoxy were more an inside job, how one lives, then we can be sure we cannot talk about orthodox nations.
Not only do orthodox church members, in a vast majority, not live according to orthodoxy, but also in the same numbers they do not even know orthodoxy. It is mainly names, few costums and registers or connecting ethnical identity with the religious affiliation, that make them orthodox.
Posted By: StuartK

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 08/09/12 08:03 PM

Why, when we can speak (albeit increasingly anachronistically) of "Catholic nations"? As for the rest of your critique, quite as true--if not more so--of Catholics as of Orthodox (or Protestants, for that matter).

I also defy you to name a time and place when this was not always the case.
Posted By: Arbanon

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 08/09/12 08:26 PM

Of course, it goes the same for the catholics, except that there is no point to mention it in here since it wasnt claimed.
On the other hand, we know that orthodoxy theologically tends and likes to see faith as an personal experience of the truth, and it is around this experience that unity is build on, while in the roman case unity is external, it's a communion with the pope.
The roman case is more sincere and historically proveable. The byzantine one is more theoretical, idealizing and historically contradicting!
Posted By: haydukovich

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 08/09/12 08:37 PM




????? more sincere? What about the Inquisition?

I would say Byzantine is more mystical and accepting of The Holy Mysteries without having to analyze or prove them.
Posted By: StuartK

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 08/09/12 09:01 PM

Quote
The roman case is more sincere and historically proveable. The byzantine one is more theoretical, idealizing and historically contradicting!


Remind me not to read your posts while drinking coffee.
Posted By: Arbanon

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 08/09/12 09:05 PM

Exactely, when I say historically contradicting, I have in mind this that while in theory and in minority mystical, in practice and majority produces ethnically, i.e extreme externity, identified orthodoxy.

What about inquisition? Throuughout medieval period inquistion was part of the church. Who expelled and interned Arius, Athanasius, chrysostomus?

What does kanun of king Dusan punish latin believers and heretics with?
Posted By: Lester S

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 08/09/12 09:52 PM

Originally Posted by StuartK
Quote
The roman case is more sincere and historically proveable. The byzantine one is more theoretical, idealizing and historically contradicting!


Remind me not to read your posts while drinking coffee.


Thank goodness I finished my cup.
Posted By: Arbanon

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 08/09/12 10:14 PM

Perhpas, when drinking coffee, I would rather have to remind you about obesity...!
Posted By: Lester S

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 08/09/12 11:48 PM

Originally Posted by Arbanon
Perhpas, when drinking coffee, I would rather have to remind you about obesity...!


But, coffee doesn't make you fat. And, don't get me started on what makes one fat. I've spent too much time on nutrition blogs, to rehash what I've learned over the last year.
Posted By: Bartol

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 08/23/12 08:42 PM

I am a Latin Rite Catholic who loves Eastern Catholicism, especially spirituality.
Instead of arguing what is "better" (everything is "better" what is based on the truth and santification), it would be better that on this "byzantine" forum to speak (I, myself, to learn) about this "way" in Christian faith.
Personally, I think that I can be enriched by Eastern Catholic believers, and am happy to have that beauty of Liturgy, spirituality etc. in my Catholic Church.
This forum and site as well others is a great oportunity for Eastern Catholics to share "hidden treasure" so we Latin Rite Catholics, can not only to introduce ourselves, but to appreciate more something what is equally Catholic and orthodox as Latin Rite Catholicism.
Posted By: 8IronBob

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 08/26/12 06:00 PM

Originally Posted by Bartol
I am a Latin Rite Catholic who loves Eastern Catholicism, especially spirituality.
Instead of arguing what is "better" (everything is "better" what is based on the truth and santification), it would be better that on this "byzantine" forum to speak (I, myself, to learn) about this "way" in Christian faith.
Personally, I think that I can be enriched by Eastern Catholic believers, and am happy to have that beauty of Liturgy, spirituality etc. in my Catholic Church.
This forum and site as well others is a great oportunity for Eastern Catholics to share "hidden treasure" so we Latin Rite Catholics, can not only to introduce ourselves, but to appreciate more something what is equally Catholic and orthodox as Latin Rite Catholicism.


Same thing's true here, was born, baptized, confirmed, and made first communion in the Latin Rite Church, but I spent a lot of my childhood also in the Byzantine Faith as well, as an altar boy yet. Although I'm primarily still Latin Rite Catholic, I do spend some times throughout the year in the Eastern Rite celebrating for certain occasions. Plus I'm sure there are times to worship in both Rites during certain times of the calendar year. Whether it be for a special festival in which the Divine Liturgy is part of the package, like the Heritage Day Festival at Holy Spirit, or any of the various Ukrainian Festivals at Ukrainian Catholic churches, etc... Although, if given the choice I could celebrate Christmas or Easter Liturgies in the Eastern Rite one day, then Western Rite the other (like the vigils in the Latin Church, and Easter and Christmas themselves in the Eastern Church). Hey, where I live, the Catholic Church is such a melting pot between the East and West, it's almost good to experience both sides of the Catholic spectrum.

Not to mention that between Latin or Slavonic, I'd like to think that Slavonic's an easier language to catch on to, imo. I mean, sure Latin is the original language of the Catholic Church as we know it, but after St. John Chrysostom and the Eastern Church of Constantinopole became Catholic, this brought the Slavonic language into the fold, and to me, it just sounds like a better language for the church. Living in between a Polish and a Ukrainian neighborhood, even though we have Latin Rite and Byzantine Rite Catholic churches all over the place, I'd almost have to equally learn both.
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 08/26/12 06:57 PM

Originally Posted by 8IronBob
Not to mention that between Latin or Slavonic, I'd like to think that Slavonic's an easier language to catch on to, imo. I mean, sure Latin is the original language of the Catholic Church as we know it, but after St. John Chrysostom and the Eastern Church of Constantinopole became Catholic, this brought the Slavonic language into the fold, and to me, it just sounds like a better language for the church. Living in between a Polish and a Ukrainian neighborhood, even though we have Latin Rite and Byzantine Rite Catholic churches all over the place, I'd almost have to equally learn both.


Hmm. That doesn't sound too much like the St. John Chrysostom that I've studied -- nor the Constantinople I've studied either. (Not that I believe the theory that St. Andrew founded the church at Constantinople, but still ...)
Posted By: IAlmisry

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 08/26/12 07:45 PM

Originally Posted by DMD
Originally Posted by StuartK
Not really. It's pro forma, like the exchange of synodika among Othodox patriarchs. In theory, each Orthodox patriarch is free to reject the synodikon of a newly elected patriarch, but this almost never happens (and would cause a crisis if it did). To a large extent, the Pope's ratification of an Eastern Catholic Patriarch's election parallels the role once played by the Roman Emperor: all patriarchs and metropolitans had to have their elections ratified by the Emperor (including, interestingly, the Pope); without that ratification, the hierarch's election was technically illegal. In contrast to the Popes, the Emperors were far more assertive in their right to reject synodal nominees, and not infrequently simply installed their own choice in the vacant office. For some reason, unless the Emperor's nominee was either morally dissolute or theologically heterodox, the Synod seldom objected.

One the Patriarch of Kyiv is installed in his throne, he, like the Metropolitan of Johnstown, is not dependent on the Bishop of Rome for anything. Greek Catholic Patriarchs do not even receive the Pallium, let alone have it placed over their heads.


I am still confused as Rome has not, to my knowledge, ever acknowledged the head of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church as Patriarch of Kyiv. I know that he, and Cardinal Huzar, are commonly referred to as such by the faithful, but doesn't Rome call him Major-Archbishop?

Once enthroned, theRuling Bishop of ACROD (not by right a Metropolitan - we shall see how the new Bishop shall be titled later this year) is dependent upon the Ecumenical Patriarch for the reception of chrism as is the Greek Archdiocese in the United States. The OCA, holding herself out as autocephalous, consecrates its own chrism.

She doesn't hold herself out as autocephalous. She is, having received the Tomos of autocephaly from her Mother Church empowering her to consecrate her won chrism.

That is not the proof of autocephaly, however: many autocephalous Churches, accepted as such by all the other 14, do not consecrate their own Chrism. Poland does not, and IIRC Alexandria, Jerusalem, Cyprus, the Church of Greece and Albania do not. Moscow, Romania, Serbia and the OCA consecrate their own.

And yes, officially and by its own canons, canonically, Major Archibishop Shevchuk is just that. Not patriarch.

The acceptance of a new autocephalous primate by his peers should, unless he is heretical or dissolute, be pro forma. Beyond those issues, it is quite limited what business it is of ours to go into another autocephalous Church's affairs.

As for the pallium, so Vatican II has vacated its canons from its councils of Lateran IV etc.?
Posted By: IAlmisry

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 08/26/12 08:08 PM

Originally Posted by Diak
Quote
Also that is why the Orthodox can not view the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Patriarch as a Patriarch in Orthodox understanding. Just as the Orthodox Bishop of Muchachevo or Presov may not appoint a Bishop for ACROD or the former Metropolia in the pre-OCA days, the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Patriarch is similarly limited. He lacks the jurisdiction to so act.


There are Orthodox hierarchs who refer to +Sviatoslav as Patriarch. I'm not going to go into the lion's den of "canonical" and "non-canonical".

but then you did:
Originally Posted by Diak
Quote
The UGCC is not yet officially a Patriarchal Church.

Whatever "officially" means - I suppose only in the eyes of a few in Rome. We commemorate him as Patriarch every Liturgy (lex orandi), other Orthodox hierarchs refer to him as Patriarch, and even other Roman bishops and cardinals have referred to him as Patriarch (I heard Cardinal George call him that at the Patriarchal Divine Liturgy in Chicago).

"Other" Orthodox hierarchs? This implies your Major-Archbishop is among the Orthodox hierarchs in the diptychs of the Catholic Church. He is not. Are any of the "Orthodox hierarchs" who "refer to him as Patriarch"?

Yes, lex orandi. You also commemorate Benedict XVI in your every liturgy as your pope, no? That term has specific meaning given it by Pastor Aeternus and Vatican I&II, spelled out for your Major-Archbishop and his clergy in the Codex Canonum Ecclesiarum Orientalium which your supreme pontiff (supreme authority of the church in the CCEO, IIRC) issued for you all, which preclude you and your Major-Archbishop from calling MA Shevchuk, "Patriarch Shevchuk."

Please leave us and our Orthodox hierarchs out of your argument with your Roman pontiff.
Posted By: StuartK

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 08/26/12 08:17 PM

IAlmisry,

Considering how the Orthodox claim to eschew legalism, all of your arguments are exceedingly legalistic.
Posted By: IAlmisry

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 08/26/12 08:57 PM

Originally Posted by StuartK
IAlmisry,

Considering how the Orthodox claim to eschew legalism, all of your arguments are exceedingly legalistic.

I'm not talking about an Orthodox Church, and I'm just holding the one about which I'm talking to the standard it has accepted.
Posted By: StuartK

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 08/26/12 09:24 PM

I think you just like to bust chops to no good effect.
Posted By: ConstantineTG

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 08/27/12 05:56 PM

Originally Posted by 8IronBob
I mean, sure Latin is the original language of the Catholic Church as we know it


No its not.
Posted By: gonesimera

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 08/27/12 07:26 PM

it's Koine Greek
Posted By: Diak

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 08/27/12 07:31 PM

"Are any of the "Orthodox hierarchs" who "refer to him as Patriarch"?
Recognizing a President or any other leader, civil or religious by their titular style of leadership is a public recognition of the holder of the title and the title. Even official representatives of the MP have referred to Patriarch Sviatoslav as Patriarch.

Quote
Considering how the Orthodox claim to eschew legalism, all of your arguments are exceedingly legalistic.

Speaking of "legalistic", I don't recall any Pope busting all of his suffragan bishops to "auxiliary" status as has the current Antiochian Metropolitan in the US. Sounds rather papal, and certainly foreign to Orthodox ecclesiology. It certainly doesn't sound "simple".

Posted By: Carson Daniel

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 08/27/12 07:48 PM

Originally Posted by 8IronBob


Not to mention that between Latin or Slavonic, I'd like to think that Slavonic's an easier language to catch on to, imo. I mean, sure Latin is the original language of the Catholic Church as we know it, but after St. John Chrysostom and the Eastern Church of Constantinopole became Catholic, this brought the Slavonic language into the fold, and to me, it just sounds like a better language for the church. Living in between a Polish and a Ukrainian neighborhood, even though we have Latin Rite and Byzantine Rite Catholic churches all over the place, I'd almost have to equally learn both.


Brother Bob, I think you are a little confused. For example, not only is Latin NOT the original language of the Church but St. John Chrysostom never used or even heard of Church Slavonic. As to which language is easier I've been a member of a BC Church for 13 years and know very little, almost no, Slavonic despite it's frequent use. I know a good deal more Latin.
Posted By: IAlmisry

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 08/28/12 02:23 AM

Originally Posted by Diak
"Are any of the "Orthodox hierarchs" who "refer to him as Patriarch"?
Recognizing a President or any other leader, civil or religious by their titular style of leadership is a public recognition of the holder of the title and the title. Even official representatives of the MP have referred to Patriarch Sviatoslav as Patriarch.

Quote
Considering how the Orthodox claim to eschew legalism, all of your arguments are exceedingly legalistic.

Speaking of "legalistic", I don't recall any Pope busting all of his suffragan bishops to "auxiliary" status as has the current Antiochian Metropolitan in the US. Sounds rather papal, and certainly foreign to Orthodox ecclesiology. It certainly doesn't sound "simple".

Sure is, and yes you have:
Quote
Wherefore we teach and declare that, by divine ordinance, the Roman Church possesses a pre-eminence of ordinary power over every other Church, and that this jurisdictional power of the Roman Pontiff is both episcopal and immediate. Both clergy and faithful, of whatever rite and dignity, both singly and collectively, are bound to submit to this power by the duty of hierarchical subordination and true obedience, and this not only in matters concerning faith and morals, but also in those which regard the discipline and government of the Church throughout the world. In this way, by unity with the Roman Pontiff in communion and in profession of the same faith , the Church of Christ becomes one flock under one Supreme Shepherd...Since the Roman Pontiff, by the divine right of the apostolic primacy, governs the whole Church, we likewise teach and declare that he is the supreme judge of the faithful, and that in all cases which fall under ecclesiastical jurisdiction recourse may be had to his judgment. The sentence of the Apostolic See (than which there is no higher authority) is not subject to revision by anyone, nor may anyone lawfully pass judgment thereupon. And so they stray from the genuine path of truth who maintain that it is lawful to appeal from the judgments of the Roman pontiffs to an ecumenical council as if this were an authority superior to the Roman Pontiff. So, then, if anyone says that the Roman Pontiff has merely an office of supervision and guidance, and not the full and supreme power of jurisdiction over the whole Church, and this not only in matters of faith and morals, but also in those which concern the discipline and government of the Church dispersed throughout the whole world; or that he has only the principal part, but not the absolute fullness, of this supreme power; or that this power of his is not ordinary and immediate both over all and each of the Churches and over all and each of the pastors and faithful: let him be anathema.

http://www.ewtn.com/library/councils/v1.htm#6

Although His Beatitude Patriarch Ignatius IV is Peter and his successor in his apostolic see, we do have recourse to higher authority when he, or his/our Holy Synod or any one of his/our bishops err, as their judgements are subject to revison and appeal to superior authority. Last I noticed/checked, i.e. last Sunday, the situatuion was status quo ante that disgraceful nonsense, rather papal (in the Pastor Aeternus, not Alexandrine, sense) and certainly foreign to Orthodox ecclesiology.

Can you quote those "official representatives of the MP"? And can you explain what the Patriarch of Moscow says means more to you than your supreme pontiff, who refers to your Major-Archbishop Sviatoslav as Major-Archbishop?

"Recognizing a President or any other leader, civil or religious by their titular style of leadership is a public recognition of the holder of the title and the title" not 100% sure what you are asserting here, and what you recommend when the holder of the title and the title are not recognized.
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 08/28/12 02:41 AM

In my opinion, the Orthodox should learn not to be such back-seat drivers. Whenever this topic comes up, you get some Orthodox making it clear that they will be upset if the Vatican ever officially refers to the UGCC as a patriarchate, and other Orthodox making it clear that they're upset that the Vatican hasn't done so already.
Posted By: IAlmisry

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 08/28/12 03:34 AM

Originally Posted by Peter J
In my opinion, the Orthodox should learn not to be such back-seat drivers. Whenever this topic comes up, you get some Orthodox making it clear that they will be upset if the Vatican ever officially refers to the UGCC as a patriarchate, and other Orthodox making it clear that they're upset that the Vatican hasn't done so already.


Who Orthodox is upset that the Vatican's hasn't done so?
Posted By: ConstantineTG

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 08/28/12 07:32 AM

The only Orthodox who really care about the Patriarchate of the UGCC are those who are arguing where the Kyivian Church really is today. Russia contends that it has moved to Moscow while the Ukrainians (UGCC, UOC-KP, UAOC) contends that it is still in Ukraine. There are of course political issues here at play, but also the Patriarchate of Moscow could lose its luster if a canonical Patriarchate is established in Ukraine, even if it is among the Catholics.
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 08/28/12 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by ConstantineTG
The only Orthodox who really care about the Patriarchate of the UGCC are those who are arguing where the Kyivian Church really is today.


Hmmm, I suppose that's a plausible theory. I just recall various conversations in which one or more Orthodox expressed the opinion that the UGCC should or shouldn't be a patriarchate; I can't tell you what those persons' beliefs on all other subjects are.

Originally Posted by IAlmisry
Who Orthodox is upset that the Vatican's hasn't done so?


Maybe "upset" wasn't the right word. Perhaps "don't like" ["wouldn't like" resp.] would have been more appropriate:

Quote
In my opinion, the Orthodox should learn not to be such back-seat drivers. Whenever this topic comes up, you get some Orthodox making it clear that they wouldn't like it if the Vatican ever officially refers to the UGCC as a patriarchate, and other Orthodox making it clear that they don't like that the Vatican hasn't done so already.
Posted By: StuartK

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 08/28/12 12:37 PM

I'm with those who believe the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church should take a play out of the Orthodox book and "just do it". As Father Taft suggested some time back, the normal manner in which a patriarchate is elevated in the Orthodox communion is for a particular Church to announce unilaterally its patriarchal status. Some Orthodox Churches welcome the new patriarchate, others shun it, but eventually (after half a century or so) they all accept the new status quo.

The UGCC should, therefore, formally announce that it is now the Greek Catholic Patriarchal Church of Kyiv, led by His Beatitude Patriarch Sviatoslav. It should change its letterhead and its website to reflect its new status, and it should stop accepting mail addressed to the "Major Archbishop of Kyiv-Halich": "Returned to Sender--No Such Person at This Address. It should cease answering phone calls requesting the Major Archbishop. It should not respond to e-mails or tweets so addressed, either. The Orthodox will howl. Rome will howl. In the end, all will accede because that's just how life is. There comes a time in the life of a Church when it has risen to a level of prominence which justifies patriarchal status. If other Churches, for political reasons, refuse to recognize this, then that Church is within its rights to claim what is its own.
Posted By: Carson Daniel

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 08/28/12 12:40 PM

Stuart, Do you hate the Orthodox?
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 08/28/12 12:45 PM

Originally Posted by Carson Daniel
Stuart, Do you hate the Orthodox?


I should certainly think not. He's just highly opinionated.
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 08/28/12 12:48 PM

Originally Posted by StuartK
I'm with those who believe the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church should take a play out of the Orthodox book and "just do it".


Side question: is there such a word as "Orthodozation"? Or, more to the point, if it doesn't exist should we invent it?

Now back to ...
Posted By: Carson Daniel

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 08/28/12 12:49 PM

No kidding. He is usually correct when he sticks to issues but he falls off the track when he imagines the motives of others, sets up straw men, and attacks the straw man. He should stick to what he knows and not wander off into areas where he has no knowledge.
Posted By: Michael_Thoma

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 08/28/12 01:44 PM

Originally Posted by Peter J
Originally Posted by StuartK
I'm with those who believe the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church should take a play out of the Orthodox book and "just do it".


Side question: is there such a word as "Orthodozation"? Or, more to the point, if it doesn't exist should we invent it?

Now back to ...
There is Byzantinization / Constantiopolization - which is what occurred when the Semitic Churches rejected Chalcedon. The EP set up it's own Greek appointees to the Sees of Antioch, Alexandria, and possibly Jerusalem, and became defacto Supreme Pontiff (First Among Equals with more than Equal Jurisdiction).

I'm totally in favor of Very Rev. Fr. Taft's "just do it" principle as well! I'm sure the Catholicos (aka Major-Archbishop) of the Malankara Syrian Catholic Church and the Holy Synod agree... now if the hoops regarding married clergy could follow the same.. =)
Posted By: StuartK

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 08/28/12 02:02 PM

What, exactly, could the Holy See do if the Eastern Catholic jurisdictions in the United States decided to begin ordaining married men without reference to Rome? Excommunicate them all? The truth is, if we haven't ordained any married men in this country, it is because our God-loving bishops find it more convenient not to do so. All honor, then, to Bishop Nicholas, who seems determined to take the bit between his teeth.
Posted By: StuartK

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 08/28/12 02:07 PM

Quote
Stuart, Do you hate the Orthodox?

Judging from what others say about me, it would appear I hate everybody. Just call me Timon of Athens.
Posted By: Michael_Thoma

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 08/28/12 02:22 PM

Originally Posted by IAlmisry
Although His Beatitude Patriarch Ignatius IV is Peter and his successor in his apostolic see, we do have recourse to higher authority when he, or his/our Holy Synod or any one of his/our bishops err, as their judgements are subject to revison and appeal to superior authority. Last I noticed/checked, i.e. last Sunday, the situatuion was status quo ante that disgraceful nonsense, rather papal (in the Pastor Aeternus, not Alexandrine, sense) and certainly foreign to Orthodox ecclesiology.

Can you quote those "official representatives of the MP"? And can you explain what the Patriarch of Moscow says means more to you than your supreme pontiff, who refers to your Major-Archbishop Sviatoslav as Major-Archbishop?
How can your Ignatius IV be Peter when he was appointed by your then Patriarch of all the known Inhabited Worlds, over the native Prince Patriarch Ignatius (for having rejected Chalcedon and the aspersions of the Imperial Court, which the Byzantine Churches supported to gain territory moneys and property from the native Semitic Christian faithful), and the pre-'Patriarch of all the known Inhabited Worlds' appointed Peter - Patriarch of the city of Antioch, of Cilicia, Syria, Iberia, Arabia Mesopotamia, Pentapolis, Ethiopia, of all of Egypt and the entire East, Father of Fathers, Pastor of Pastors, Bishop of Bishops, the Thirteenth of The Holy Apostles - who's unbroken direct successor today is named Gregorios III - accepting Communion with the then Roman Chief Bridge-Builder and High Priest?
Posted By: Carson Daniel

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 08/28/12 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by StuartK
Quote
Stuart, Do you hate the Orthodox?

Judging from what others say about me, it would appear I hate everybody. Just call me Timon of Athens.


I do enjoy humor. It makes a person more human. I love Orthodoxy but do not always love the way some Orthodox talk and act toward Eastern Catholics. Some day we shall be one. One thousand years is surely long enough.
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 08/28/12 02:43 PM

Originally Posted by Michael_Thoma
Originally Posted by Peter J
Originally Posted by StuartK
I'm with those who believe the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church should take a play out of the Orthodox book and "just do it".


Side question: is there such a word as "Orthodozation"? Or, more to the point, if it doesn't exist should we invent it?

Now back to ...
There is Byzantinization / Constantiopolization - which is what occurred when the Semitic Churches rejected Chalcedon.


Indeed, and we've also used "Easternization", "Romanization", and "Melkitization". But I'm not sure any of these are considered "real" words -- except of course for "Latinization" (and "de-Latinization").
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 08/28/12 02:44 PM

Originally Posted by StuartK
Quote
Stuart, Do you hate the Orthodox?

Judging from what others say about me, it would appear I hate everybody. Just call me Timon of Athens.


As long as I don't have to be Pumba.
Posted By: ConstantineTG

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 08/28/12 05:27 PM

Originally Posted by StuartK
I'm with those who believe the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church should take a play out of the Orthodox book and "just do it". As Father Taft suggested some time back, the normal manner in which a patriarchate is elevated in the Orthodox communion is for a particular Church to announce unilaterally its patriarchal status. Some Orthodox Churches welcome the new patriarchate, others shun it, but eventually (after half a century or so) they all accept the new status quo.

The UGCC should, therefore, formally announce that it is now the Greek Catholic Patriarchal Church of Kyiv, led by His Beatitude Patriarch Sviatoslav. It should change its letterhead and its website to reflect its new status, and it should stop accepting mail addressed to the "Major Archbishop of Kyiv-Halich": "Returned to Sender--No Such Person at This Address. It should cease answering phone calls requesting the Major Archbishop. It should not respond to e-mails or tweets so addressed, either. The Orthodox will howl. Rome will howl. In the end, all will accede because that's just how life is. There comes a time in the life of a Church when it has risen to a level of prominence which justifies patriarchal status. If other Churches, for political reasons, refuse to recognize this, then that Church is within its rights to claim what is its own.


His Beatitude will be here this weekend, I will let him know your thoughts biggrin

Seriously though, everyone within the UGCC do refer to him as the Patriarch. In our Liturgies he is commemorated as the Patriarch. What more can we do? We announce the visit as the visit of the Patriarch, but the RC-run BC Catholic has covered the event as a visity by the Major Archbishop.
Posted By: Diak

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 08/28/12 06:41 PM

Quote
Can you quote those "official representatives of the MP"?

Archbishop Alexander, upon the visit of Patriarch Sviatoslav to the ailing MP Metropolitan of Kyiv, among others.

Quote
And can you explain what the Patriarch of Moscow says means more to you than your supreme pontiff, who refers to your Major-Archbishop Sviatoslav as Major-Archbishop?

I didn't say that. But the "Supreme Pontiff" is free to call our Patriarch what he wills.
Posted By: Diak

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 08/28/12 07:16 PM

But I do know the Pope certainly isn't calling +Sviatoslav "Auxiliary".
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 08/28/12 07:29 PM

Originally Posted by ConstantineTG
Seriously though, everyone within the UGCC do refer to him as the Patriarch. In our Liturgies he is commemorated as the Patriarch. What more can we do?


Something binding on the entire Catholic Communion.
Posted By: Diak

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 08/28/12 08:31 PM

Quote
Something binding on the entire Catholic Communion.

Constantine's question/answer was "what more can WE do". Since communion with Rome is not injured, as he said, we do nothing except what we are doing, and that is the particular realization of +Sviatoslav as our Patriarch. Rome never approved Jerusalem, Constantinople, Antioch or Alexandria to be raised to the status of Patriarchates, each continued in the growth and development of each particular church until it was recognized within that particular Church.

I'm not sure what you mean "binding on the entire Catholic Communion". Generally that specifically refers to dogmatic issues requiring the intervention of Rome, not discliplinary matters of title.
Posted By: IAlmisry

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 08/28/12 08:41 PM

Originally Posted by Peter J
Originally Posted by ConstantineTG
Seriously though, everyone within the UGCC do refer to him as the Patriarch. In our Liturgies he is commemorated as the Patriarch. What more can we do?


Something binding on the entire Catholic Communion.

According to their beliefs, that is beyond their compentance, authority and power.
Posted By: Diak

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 08/28/12 08:55 PM

Quote
According to their beliefs, that is beyond their compentance, authority and power.


Our "beliefs" are contained in the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed.
Posted By: ConstantineTG

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 08/28/12 09:13 PM

Originally Posted by Diak
Quote
Something binding on the entire Catholic Communion.

Constantine's question/answer was "what more can WE do". Since communion with Rome is not injured, as he said, we do nothing except what we are doing, and that is the particular realization of +Sviatoslav as our Patriarch. Rome never approved Jerusalem, Constantinople, Antioch or Alexandria to be raised to the status of Patriarchates, each continued in the growth and development of each particular church until it was recognized within that particular Church.

I'm not sure what you mean "binding on the entire Catholic Communion". Generally that specifically refers to dogmatic issues requiring the intervention of Rome, not discliplinary matters of title.


Something binding on the entire Catholic Communion would be a decree from the Pope. I wonder, has there been any concelebrations with other Catholic Patriarchs in recent times? Was the Patriarch of the Ukrainian Church commemorated as such by other Eastern hierarchs?
Posted By: Michael_Thoma

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 08/28/12 09:32 PM

The Ukrainian Patriarch would not be commemorated by others unless he was attending or celebrating. I have witnessed Patriarch Sviatoslav commemorated at St. Nicholas Cathedral in Chicago, with Bishop Mar Jacob Angadiath, Bishop John Michael Botean, Bishop Nicholas Samra, Cardinal Francis George, and others - no one batted an eye or objected, or offered correction. In fact, HE Cardinal George referred to HB as Patriarch in his homily.
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 08/28/12 11:19 PM

Originally Posted by IAlmisry
Originally Posted by Peter J
Originally Posted by ConstantineTG
Seriously though, everyone within the UGCC do refer to him as the Patriarch. In our Liturgies he is commemorated as the Patriarch. What more can we do?


Something binding on the entire Catholic Communion.

According to their beliefs, that is beyond their compentance, authority and power.


Maybe so. In any case, my answer to Constantine's question wasn't meant as a serious proposal.
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 08/29/12 01:25 PM

Btw, Constantine, when you say "everyone within the UGCC do refer to him as the Patriarch" I'm guessing you mean the majority, not literally everyone in the UGCC.
Posted By: StuartK

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 08/29/12 05:45 PM

Quote
I'm guessing you mean the majority, not literally everyone in the UGCC.


Close enough as makes no matter. The title was controversial under Patriarch Miroslav Ivan, unremarkable under Patriarch Lyubomir, and embraced under Patriarch Sviatoslav.
Posted By: StuartK

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 08/29/12 05:53 PM

Here is a link to an interview with Father Robert Taft in which he explains his views on the Kyivan Patriarchate:

Quote
What’s the argument for erecting a patriarchate for the Greek Catholic church in Ukraine?

The argument is that when an Eastern church reaches a certain consistency, unity, size, consolidation and so forth, it’s a normal step. Furthermore, among the Orthodox it’s often been a normal step taken illegally. For example, the Bulgarians were under the Patriarchate of Constantinople, who according to Orthodox practice, imposed upon them a Greek hierarchy, until the Bulgarians had enough and declared their independence, erecting their own patriarchate. Constantinople refused to recognize it, until they finally realized that nothing’s going to change and so they recognized it. Frankly, my advice to the Ukrainians has always been to do the same thing. Just declare the patriarchate and get on with it. Do it, of course, only if you’ve got the bishops unanimously behind it …

Do they?

Yes, I think they do now. The danger is that if there are even two people who say no, then Rome’s going to say that the bishops are divided and we can’t recognize it. I told them, take two steps. First, publicly declare the patriarchate. Second, request Roman recognition, but even if it doesn’t come, refuse all mail that doesn’t come addressed to the patriarchate. Don’t just pretend, but really do it. The Secretary of State sends a letter addressed to the archbishop? We don’t have any archbishop, we’ve got a patriarch. Send it back unopened, “addressee unknown.”

Why erect it in Kiev rather than L’viv, where the Greek Catholics in the Ukraine are traditionally concentrated?

You have to understand, and this is something that anyone who knows any history has to sympathize with, that Kiev, “Kievan Rus” as they call it, is the heartland of all Orthodoxy among the East Slavs – Belorussians, Ukrainians, and the Russians. To ask one of them to renounce Kiev is like asking the Christians to give Jerusalem over to the Jews, to say we really don’t have any interest there anymore. It’s ridiculous. …

Furthermore, there was a time when all of Ukraine west of the Dnepr River was in union with Rome, and the presiding hierarch was in Kiev. It’s not like there’s never been a Ukrainian Catholic bishop of Kiev, a metropolitan of Kiev. But, you know, you don’t resolve this on the basis of history. History is instructive but not normative. …

Kiev in Ukraine is like Paris in France. L’viv, even though it’s a lovely town, is still a backwater. You’re dealing with a church that has spread beyond the old Galician boundaries, in other words the Western Ukrainian boundaries of its existence. In the modern world people spread all over the place. Even though this is still the heartland, there are Ukrainian Greek Catholics not only throughout Eastern Ukraine but also across Russia, Kazakhstan, you name it. These people have a right to be served. Furthermore, one of the ugly secrets that no one talks about is that it’s quite possible that the Ukrainian Greek Catholic church is the largest group of practicing Christians in the country, East or West. I’m talking about those who go to church. You ask the Orthodox in the Ukraine, “How big are you?” and they say, “310 parishes.” But ask them “Who goes to church?” and they say, “We don’t know.” “Eastern” and “statistics” is an oxymoron. One thing that characterizes Ukrainian Catholics is that they go to church, and they practice. Why was the Russian Orthodox church so upset at losing that area back to the Catholic church? That’s where their vocations came from, and that’s where their money came from. Collect a statistic sometime of how many priests who were ordained in the Russian Orthodox church from the end of World War II until the day before yesterday came from Western Ukraine. Certainly it would be an overwhelmingly unbalanced proportion with respect to the size of the Orthodox population.

By the way, almost all the Ukrainian Orthodox today are Catholics who had been forced into the Orthodox Church and for one reason or another remained Orthodox.

Aside from Orthodox sensitivities, is there any argument against erecting a patriarchate in Ukraine?

Oh, good heavens, no. That is, unless you want to ask the question of what right Rome has to erect an Eastern patriarchate anyway. Basically, the scuttlebutt is that the pope said to the Ukrainians, if you can convince Kasper, it’s okay with me. Kasper of course is going to oppose it, and should. Kasper has been given the job of building bridges with the Orthodox, not to dynamite them. I perfectly sympathize. What Kasper’s doing is not following his own personal tastes and needs. He’s doing his job.

But there’s no intra-Catholic reason to object to the patriarchate?

Are you kidding? We’ve got a patriarchate for the Copts whose total membership would fit in this room, for God’s sake. Give me a break. Maybe there shouldn’t be, that’s another question, but there is.
Posted By: ConstantineTG

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 08/29/12 07:27 PM

Originally Posted by Peter J
Btw, Constantine, when you say "everyone within the UGCC do refer to him as the Patriarch" I'm guessing you mean the majority, not literally everyone in the UGCC.


Definitely. Unfortunately they haven't received the memo :P
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 08/29/12 11:45 PM

Originally Posted by StuartK
Quote
I'm guessing you mean the majority, not literally everyone in the UGCC.


Close enough as makes no matter.


Alright, I don't think we could expect more than that. I.e. it's pretty much unheard of for everyone to agree on something -- excepting, of course, that we Scotsmen all like haggis.
Posted By: StuartK

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 08/29/12 11:57 PM

I like haggis. Doesn't everyone?
Posted By: Our Lady's slave

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 08/30/12 07:13 AM

URGH cry
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 08/30/12 11:00 AM

Originally Posted by Our Lady's slave
URGH cry


Talking about haggis makes you cry b/c you don't like it, or b/c you like it but you can't get a hold of any?
Posted By: Our Lady's slave

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 08/30/12 11:12 AM

I really really can't stand it biggrin
Posted By: IAlmisry

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 09/01/12 12:51 AM

Originally Posted by StuartK
Here is a link to an interview with Father Robert Taft in which he explains his views on the Kyivan Patriarchate:

Quote
Why erect it in Kiev rather than L’viv, where the Greek Catholics in the Ukraine are traditionally concentrated?

You have to understand, and this is something that anyone who knows any history has to sympathize with, that Kiev, “Kievan Rus” as they call it, is the heartland of all Orthodoxy among the East Slavs – Belorussians, Ukrainians, and the Russians. To ask one of them to renounce Kiev is like asking the Christians to give Jerusalem over to the Jews, to say we really don’t have any interest there anymore. It’s ridiculous. …

Furthermore, there was a time when all of Ukraine west of the Dnepr River was in union with Rome, and the presiding hierarch was in Kiev.

If he means in communion with Major-Archbishop Shevchuk or his predecessors, it never happened.
Posted By: StuartK

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 09/01/12 01:55 AM

You are a much, much braver man than me. So, in the spirit of intellectual inquiry, I double dog dare you to send your post to Father Robert, and look forward to his reply.
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 09/01/12 02:36 AM

Originally Posted by StuartK
You are a much, much braver man than me. So, in the spirit of intellectual inquiry, I double dog dare you to send your post to Father Robert, and look forward to his reply.


I think you have misunderstood. When Fr Taft says "To hell with X", that doesn't mean that X actually goes to hell (even temporarily). Worst case scenario, he might turn us over to the secular arm.
Posted By: IAlmisry

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 09/01/12 03:05 AM

Originally Posted by StuartK
You are a much, much braver man than me. So, in the spirit of intellectual inquiry, I double dog dare you to send your post to Father Robert, and look forward to his reply.

You don't need to dare me, even without dogs. You get me the address, I'll send the inquiry (PM. I don't want the 'Bots to get Father's address).
Posted By: StuartK

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 09/01/12 01:49 PM

Write to Jack Figel, who will pass it on.
Posted By: ConstantineTG

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 09/02/12 01:32 AM

I had some chat time with His Beatitude yesterday. Maybe I should have asked him to sign up with ByzCath and share his thoughts biggrin
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 09/02/12 02:07 AM

Originally Posted by ConstantineTG
I had some chat time with His Beatitude yesterday. Maybe I should have asked him to sign up with ByzCath and share his thoughts biggrin


He's already here, but he asked me not to reveal what user-name he uses.
Posted By: ConstantineTG

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 09/02/12 02:38 AM

No, seriously, I was chatting with him yesterday. He is here on a visit in our Eparchy. I served as yesterday's Divine Liturgy, Moleben, and today's Patriarchal Divine Liturgy.

Don't you think it would have been funny if I did ask him if he posts at ByzCath :P
Posted By: IAlmisry

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 09/04/12 06:11 PM

Originally Posted by Michael_Thoma
Originally Posted by Peter J
Originally Posted by StuartK
I'm with those who believe the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church should take a play out of the Orthodox book and "just do it".


Side question: is there such a word as "Orthodozation"? Or, more to the point, if it doesn't exist should we invent it?

Now back to ...
There is Byzantinization / Constantiopolization - which is what occurred when the Semitic Churches rejected Chalcedon.

The Acts of Chalcedon bears dozens of signatures in Syriac, a Semitic language, from the Patriarchate(s) of Antioch and/- Jerusalem.

Originally Posted by Michael_Thoma
The EP set up it's own Greek appointees to the Sees of Antioch, Alexandria, and possibly Jerusalem, and became defacto Supreme Pontiff (First Among Equals with more than Equal Jurisdiction).

No.

The Patriarchs of Alexandria, Antioch and Jerusalem Greek from the first century, with Greek primates since the second century.

The Holy Synod of Alexandria elected a new Pope to replace the deposed Pope Dioscoros: the Fathers of Chalcedon mandated by canon that they not leave Constantinople until they did so. Once Pope Proterius was elected, they signed the Definition of Chalcedon.

Both Patriarch Domnus II, who Pope Dioscoros had deposed, and Patriarch Maximos II, whom Pope Dioscoros had placed on St. Peter's First Throne of Antioch, signed the Definition of Chalcedon, and the Fathers held a special session to legitimize Maximos' Patriarchate and the pension for Patriarch Domnus, per their agreement.

The Fathers of Chalcedon legitimized the elevation of Jerusalem to a Patriarchate by Pope
Dioscoros, and its Patriarch Juvenal signed the Definition of Chalcedon. The non-Chalcedonians never created a hierarchy for Jerusalem nor a non-Chalcedonian Patriarchate of Jerusalem.

The EP has never been a "Supreme Pontiff," de facto or otherwise. Though many have thought of themselves as such. Or thinks of himself as such.

Originally Posted by Michael_Thoma
I'm totally in favor of Very Rev. Fr. Taft's "just do it" principle as well! I'm sure the Catholicos (aka Major-Archbishop) of the Malankara Syrian Catholic Church and the Holy Synod agree... now if the hoops regarding married clergy could follow the same.. =)

Sort of questions Pastor Aeternus and its claims, and the necessity of a man serving as "font of unity."
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 09/04/12 06:50 PM

Originally Posted by IAlmisry
Originally Posted by Michael_Thoma
I'm totally in favor of Very Rev. Fr. Taft's "just do it" principle as well! I'm sure the Catholicos (aka Major-Archbishop) of the Malankara Syrian Catholic Church and the Holy Synod agree... now if the hoops regarding married clergy could follow the same.. =)

Sort of questions Pastor Aeternus and its claims, and the necessity of a man serving as "font of unity."

Well, that's probably why Stuart referred to it as "tak[ing] a play out of the Orthodox book", and why I suggested the term "Orthodization".
Posted By: IAlmisry

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 09/04/12 07:50 PM

Originally Posted by Peter J
Originally Posted by IAlmisry
Originally Posted by Michael_Thoma
I'm totally in favor of Very Rev. Fr. Taft's "just do it" principle as well! I'm sure the Catholicos (aka Major-Archbishop) of the Malankara Syrian Catholic Church and the Holy Synod agree... now if the hoops regarding married clergy could follow the same.. =)

Sort of questions Pastor Aeternus and its claims, and the necessity of a man serving as "font of unity."

Well, that's probably why Stuart referred to it as "tak[ing] a play out of the Orthodox book", and why I suggested the term "Orthodization".

does that mean "'doxing" on a grand scale?
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 09/04/12 10:46 PM

Originally Posted by IAlmisry
Originally Posted by Peter J
Well, that's probably why Stuart referred to it as "tak[ing] a play out of the Orthodox book", and why I suggested the term "Orthodization".

does that mean "'doxing" on a grand scale?


I would have to say "no", since "Doxing" means "converting to Orthodoxy". (Not that either "Doxing" or "Orthodization" will ever be in Webster. blush ) In the same way "Latinization" doesn't mean "canonically transferring to the Latin Church".
Posted By: ConstantineTG

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 09/05/12 04:58 AM

Originally Posted by IAlmisry

does that mean "'doxing" on a grand scale?


Sweet! Where do I sign up? biggrin
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 09/16/12 02:24 AM

Originally Posted by ConstantineTG
Originally Posted by IAlmisry

does that mean "'doxing" on a grand scale?


Sweet! Where do I sign up? biggrin


Oh, right behind this door. (Opens doors slightly to confirm that the Spanish inquisitors are standing ready on the other side.)
Posted By: 8IronBob

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 09/16/12 11:44 AM

Or you could have "Byzantination" meaning that you are moving from the Latin Church into the Eastern Catholic Rite (trust me, there's probably been plenty of that going on over the years). It's kind of a "stepping stone" effort, because before you can become full-blown Orthodox from Catholic faith, it's always best to switch to the Eastern Catholic faith first, since you are still under full Communion with the Vatican, then you can "Dox" over once you've mastered the Eastern traditions.
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 09/16/12 12:26 PM

Originally Posted by 8IronBob
Or you could have "Byzantination" meaning that you are moving from the Latin Church into the Eastern Catholic Rite (trust me, there's probably been plenty of that going on over the years).


I completely agree in principle. But the thing is, "Latinization" in principle could be defined as joining the Latin Church, but in practice it is almost always defined as adopting Latin customs without joining the Latin Church.

Originally Posted by 8IronBob
It's kind of a "stepping stone" effort, because before you can become full-blown Orthodox from Catholic faith, it's always best to switch to the Eastern Catholic faith first, since you are still under full Communion with the Vatican, then you can "Dox" over once you've mastered the Eastern traditions.


Always best? Seems like an over-generalization. What about the WRO? They're not chopped liver.
Posted By: Lester S

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 09/16/12 02:18 PM

Originally Posted by Peter J
Originally Posted by 8IronBob
Or you could have "Byzantination" meaning that you are moving from the Latin Church into the Eastern Catholic Rite (trust me, there's probably been plenty of that going on over the years).


I completely agree in principle. But the thing is, "Latinization" in principle could be defined as joining the Latin Church, but in practice it is almost always defined as adopting Latin customs without joining the Latin Church.

Originally Posted by 8IronBob
It's kind of a "stepping stone" effort, because before you can become full-blown Orthodox from Catholic faith, it's always best to switch to the Eastern Catholic faith first, since you are still under full Communion with the Vatican, then you can "Dox" over once you've mastered the Eastern traditions.


Always best? Seems like an over-generalization. What about the WRO? They're not chopped liver.


Feelings are mixed, within Orthodoxy, regarding their Western rite brethren.
Posted By: theophan

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 09/16/12 10:26 PM

Originally Posted By: 8IronBob
Quote
It's kind of a "stepping stone" effort, because before you can become full-blown Orthodox from Catholic faith, it's always best to switch to the Eastern Catholic faith first, since you are still under full Communion with the Vatican, then you can "Dox" over once you've mastered the Eastern traditions.


Christ is in our midst!!

Forgive me, but making the profound change of one's commitment in one of the Apostolic Churches when they are not in communion is a bit more than changing one's membership from one civic club to another--like dropping out of the Lions and becoming a Rotarian.

There is the positive side of finding many similarities in the understanding of the fact that the bread and wine offered become the life-giving Body and Blood of Christ.

But there is a negative that is often overlooked and that causes hard feelings and a sense of distrust of the person moving in the community abandoned. In a sense, there is an implied condemnation of the community one has moved from, its leaders, its doctrine, and its version of history. No small matter here.

May I suggest that if you haven't done this you might consider that people who have done so have very often suffered a wrenching in the deepest part of their souls. Very often there is familial opposition that plays itself out around the holiday table if not more often when one lives in the same community or within short distances.

Bob
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 09/16/12 10:47 PM

Originally Posted by theophan
Originally Posted By: 8IronBob
Quote
It's kind of a "stepping stone" effort, because before you can become full-blown Orthodox from Catholic faith, it's always best to switch to the Eastern Catholic faith first, since you are still under full Communion with the Vatican, then you can "Dox" over once you've mastered the Eastern traditions.
Christ is in our midst!!

Forgive me, but making the profound change of one's commitment in one of the Apostolic Churches when they are not in communion is a bit more than changing one's membership from one civic club to another--like dropping out of the Lions and becoming a Rotarian.

There is the positive side of finding many similarities in the understanding of the fact that the bread and wine offered become the life-giving Body and Blood of Christ.

But there is a negative that is often overlooked and that causes hard feelings and a sense of distrust of the person moving in the community abandoned. In a sense, there is an implied condemnation of the community one has moved from, its leaders, its doctrine, and its version of history. No small matter here.

May I suggest that if you haven't done this you might consider that people who have done so have very often suffered a wrenching in the deepest part of their souls. Very often there is familial opposition that plays itself out around the holiday table if not more often when one lives in the same community or within short distances.


Good post.

First I just want to mention that the post you quoted was by 8IronBob (I say this not so much for you but for anyone who could be confused that the "Re: Lester S" at the top of your post.)

But more to the point, I think you're absolutely right to say that it's no small matter to switch from Catholicism to Orthodoxy, or vice versa. By way of comparison, it's worth noting that a switch, let's say, from the Chaldean Catholic Church to the Maronite Catholic Church, can only be done with the permission of the bishop one is leaving. But when someone speaks of switching between Catholicism and Orthodoxy, it is to be understood that they mean doing so without the permission of the old bishop. A very serious matter.
Posted By: ConstantineTG

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 09/17/12 11:50 PM

Indeed it is not a simple step. I've always thought about my family (extended, like parents, sisters, not wife and kids) and also the community I will be leaving behind if I do "'dox". That alone is harder than trying to learn the teachings and making comparissons.
Posted By: Lester S

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 09/18/12 05:18 AM

Originally Posted by ConstantineTG
Indeed it is not a simple step. I've always thought about my family (extended, like parents, sisters, not wife and kids) and also the community I will be leaving behind if I do "'dox". That alone is harder than trying to learn the teachings and making comparissons.


echoed, brother.
Posted By: Roman Interloper

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 09/19/12 05:56 PM

Originally Posted by Peter J
Oh, right behind this door. (Opens doors slightly to confirm that the Spanish inquisitors are standing ready on the other side.)


Wow. I have to imagine it's safe to say he wasn't expecting the Spanish Inquisition.

wink
Posted By: RussianCath

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 03/20/13 08:34 PM

My earlier statement,
"...if any of our eastern catholic hierarchs did finally have enough of Roman nonsense and decided to break communion with Rome (like the Carpatho-Russians, for example), I would have a hard time NOT following them!"

I admit, I have changed my views on. Running to the Orthodox will not do any good. We ARE Orthodox Churches in communion with Rome-Rome has it faults, injustices, etc...but so do the Orthodox, and, in my opinion, in some ways, moreso. The grass is not always greener on the other side. After further study I believe we need to be in communion with the chief hierarch of the Church, the Bishop of Rome. Going through all the evidence both sides bring up to support their position can be quite difficult, agonizing even, (it has been for me)-both claim to be absolutely true. But after going through both, the Eastern Catholic position seems to make most sense to me; I'll stick with the successor of St. Peter in Rome and try in my little way, to help fix the problems therein-firstly, by prayer.
Posted By: 8IronBob

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 03/20/13 09:00 PM

Well, since we ARE Catholic, it makes it more open to those from the Latin tradition to come to the Eastern faith, and fulfill the same sacramental obligations as they would. It also opens up for those that want to move from Latin Rite to Eastern Rite easy, too, such as I'm in the middle of doing. Now mind you that while I'm still canonically Latin, I do have a large spirituality in the Byzantine tradition, and it might get to the point where I might change my canonical position after some time.
Posted By: Joe in Slavland

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 03/20/13 11:42 PM

Originally Posted by RussianCath
My earlier statement,
"...if any of our eastern catholic hierarchs did finally have enough of Roman nonsense and decided to break communion with Rome (like the Carpatho-Russians, for example), I would have a hard time NOT following them!"

I admit, I have changed my views on. Running to the Orthodox will not do any good. We ARE Orthodox Churches in communion with Rome-Rome has it faults, injustices, etc...but so do the Orthodox, and, in my opinion, in some ways, moreso. The grass is not always greener on the other side. After further study I believe we need to be in communion with the chief hierarch of the Church, the Bishop of Rome. Going through all the evidence both sides bring up to support their position can be quite difficult, agonizing even, (it has been for me)-both claim to be absolutely true. But after going through both, the Eastern Catholic position seems to make most sense to me; I'll stick with the successor of St. Peter in Rome and try in my little way, to help fix the problems therein-firstly, by prayer.

Let's face it. Byzantine Catholics are NOT Orthodox in communion with Rome. They should be but are not. Attend Vigil and Divine Liturgy at Saint Sergius Russian Orthodox Cathedral on Broadview. Then go to St. John Ruthenian Cathedral. They are NOT the same thing! And every time the Ruthenians do something liturgically they get it wrong.

To be Orthodox is to accept our ancestry and to follow what we received from our fathers. To be Byzantine Catholic is to reject our ancestry and to slowly replace it with elements of the Latin Church.
Posted By: StuartK

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 03/21/13 03:33 AM

Quote
Let's face it. Byzantine Catholics are NOT Orthodox in communion with Rome.

Ruthenians are a solipsistic lot. They think they are the only Byzantine Catholics, ignoring the many other particular Churches, whose membership dwarfs their own. I would say that there are plenty of Ukrainians, Melkites, Romanians and Russians who do not suffer from the Carptho-Rusyn Identity Confusion Syndrome, and consider themselves nothing less than "Orthodox Christians in communion with Rome".

But, having been told by their hierarchs in no uncertain terms that they are not Orthodox Christians (hell, they can't even bring themselves to use the "O-word" in the Liturgy), while the hierarchs try to carve out a small pond in which they can be big fish swimming the tertium quid, and browbeat the clergy and the laity into going along with them, it's no surprise that the Ruthenians have no idea who or what they are supposed to be.
Posted By: Lester S

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 03/21/13 09:28 PM

Originally Posted by StuartK
Quote
Let's face it. Byzantine Catholics are NOT Orthodox in communion with Rome.

Ruthenians are a solipsistic lot. They think they are the only Byzantine Catholics, ignoring the many other particular Churches, whose membership dwarfs their own. I would say that there are plenty of Ukrainians, Melkites, Romanians and Russians who do not suffer from the Carptho-Rusyn Identity Confusion Syndrome, and consider themselves nothing less than "Orthodox Christians in communion with Rome".

But, having been told by their hierarchs in no uncertain terms that they are not Orthodox Christians (hell, they can't even bring themselves to use the "O-word" in the Liturgy), while the hierarchs try to carve out a small pond in which they can be big fish swimming the tertium quid, and browbeat the clergy and the laity into going along with them, it's no surprise that the Ruthenians have no idea who or what they are supposed to be.


This reminds me to look for a St. Alexis Toth icon...
Posted By: 8IronBob

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 03/21/13 11:34 PM

Ahh, yes, that was celebrated along with St. Patrick, according to what Fr. Hayduk over at St. John the Baptist Cathedral was talking about last Sunday. I think that finding a St. Alexis Toth icon would almost be as tough as finding one for St. Patrick, Enlightener of Ireland.
Posted By: DMD

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 03/21/13 11:51 PM

Originally Posted by Lester S
Originally Posted by StuartK
Quote
Let's face it. Byzantine Catholics are NOT Orthodox in communion with Rome.

Ruthenians are a solipsistic lot. They think they are the only Byzantine Catholics, ignoring the many other particular Churches, whose membership dwarfs their own. I would say that there are plenty of Ukrainians, Melkites, Romanians and Russians who do not suffer from the Carptho-Rusyn Identity Confusion Syndrome, and consider themselves nothing less than "Orthodox Christians in communion with Rome".

But, having been told by their hierarchs in no uncertain terms that they are not Orthodox Christians (hell, they can't even bring themselves to use the "O-word" in the Liturgy), while the hierarchs try to carve out a small pond in which they can be big fish swimming the tertium quid, and browbeat the clergy and the laity into going along with them, it's no surprise that the Ruthenians have no idea who or what they are supposed to be.


This reminds me to look for a St. Alexis Toth icon...


Go for the whole lot - including St. Alexis - the Synaxis of the Saints of Carpatho-Rus! http://www.orthodoxgoods.com/icon-of-the-synaxis-of-the-saints-of-carpathorus.html

(I would remind my EC friends that when the late Metropolitan Nicholas proclaimed the Synaxis of local Saints, he expressed his regret that at this time he could not include the 20th century Martyrs of the Greek Catholics who were murdered by the communists, Blessed Pavel and Blessed Theodore, but he urged his Orthodox people to pray for them and remember their martyrdom.

I would also argue that the actions of St Alexis, Bishop Chornock and their followers may likely have saved the Eastern Rite from absorption into the Roman Church in the Americas by putting the real fear into Rome that they would lose the majority of Greek Catholics here were they to continue to pursue extreme Latinizing. Perhaps in the spirit of the new Pope, the posthumous cancellation of the formal excommunications of these men would be a positive sign to the Orthodox world.)
Posted By: Booth

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 03/21/13 11:55 PM

I don't think it's fair to generalize about all parishes. My UGCC parish has replaced all of the western murals with icons. We sing the liturgy. We do the profound bows. We support our married priest. Our infants receive the three Mysteries of Initiation together. Our religious ed teaches Byzantine theology. I know it's not that simple, but these are examples.

It's easy to become discouraged. But if you work in discouragement with faith, you are doubly blessed for your effort. And it builds character. The Cross is always joy and pain in this life.

Prayer and fasting are the answer. Work for your parish. Praise God for your Eastern Catholic parish. If someone wants to Latinize your parish, or break you off from the Catholic communion, go down swinging (with love). Carry a torch in the darkness, so that the future may have what you do. Jesus won't abandon you. Take chances.

If you don't succeed, then at least you will have a life of love and work to show Our Lord when you die.

If pagan temples in Rome could have been turned into churches, then surely it is a smaller feat for God to de-Latinize a parish. If the pagan empire could be overthrown, then certainly God can bring us all back into communion. Prayer and fasting!

My prayers are with my brothers and sisters who want to see the ECCs both authentic and evangelizing.
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 03/23/13 02:41 PM

Originally Posted by StuartK
Ruthenians are a solipsistic lot. They think they are the only Byzantine Catholics, ignoring the many other particular Churches, whose membership dwarfs their own.


I have to admit that that annoys me too. But, to be fair, there are Melkites and Ukrainian Catholics who don't want to be called "Byzantine Catholics".
Posted By: 8IronBob

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 03/23/13 04:20 PM

Originally Posted by Peter J
Originally Posted by StuartK
Ruthenians are a solipsistic lot. They think they are the only Byzantine Catholics, ignoring the many other particular Churches, whose membership dwarfs their own.


I have to admit that that annoys me too. But, to be fair, there are Melkites and Ukrainian Catholics who don't want to be called "Byzantine Catholics".


Then there's also the Romanian Church, even though they only have a handful of "Byzantine Catholic" parishes in the whole country, I'm wondering what their stance would be between Greek-Catholicism and Orthodoxy for the most part. What would you say there?
Posted By: Pani Rose

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 03/23/13 04:29 PM

I am Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic because that is where God clearly planted Fr. deacon Stan and myself, with our family 34 years ago today. We entered the Church on Lazarus Saturday in 1979.

In '86 God moved us to Birmingham, then planted us in St George Melkite Byzantine Greek Catholic Church, to grow and serve.

As Metropolitan Basil, of Blessed Memory, told my husband on the day of his ordination, "you are to serve where God has planted you"!

I miss the Metropolitan!
Posted By: 8IronBob

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 03/23/13 11:44 PM

Originally Posted by Pani Rose
I am Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic because that is where God clearly planted Fr. deacon Stan and myself, with our family 34 years ago today. We entered the Church on Lazarus Saturday in 1979.

In '86 God moved us to Birmingham, then planted us in St George Melkite Byzantine Greek Catholic Church, to grow and serve.

As Metropolitan Basil, of Blessed Memory, told my husband on the day of his ordination, "you are to serve where God has planted you"!

I miss the Metropolitan!


So do I, in fact, Metropolitan Basil was also the Bishop here in Parma before being installed in Pittsburgh, small world. In fact, wasn't he the bishop after Bishop Andrew Pataki was reassigned to the Eparchy of Passaic, I wonder? Something about that sounds familiar.
Posted By: Ray S.

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 03/24/13 07:32 PM

I stand for life. I also stand for life from conception until natural death. Not all of Orthodoxy stands for this. Therefore, I cannot in good conscience accept any faith that is not 100% pro-life.
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 03/24/13 11:37 PM

Originally Posted by 8IronBob
Originally Posted by Peter J
Originally Posted by StuartK
Ruthenians are a solipsistic lot. They think they are the only Byzantine Catholics, ignoring the many other particular Churches, whose membership dwarfs their own.


I have to admit that that annoys me too. But, to be fair, there are Melkites and Ukrainian Catholics who don't want to be called "Byzantine Catholics".


Then there's also the Romanian Church, even though they only have a handful of "Byzantine Catholic" parishes in the whole country, I'm wondering what their stance would be between Greek-Catholicism and Orthodoxy for the most part. What would you say there?


I'm not sure what you're asking. Are you talking about the Romanian Church that is Orthodox, or the Romanian Church that is Greek Catholic?
Posted By: Nelson Chase

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 03/25/13 01:53 AM

Quote

I stand for life. I also stand for life from conception until natural death. Not all of Orthodoxy stands for this. Therefore, I cannot in good conscience accept any faith that is not 100% pro-life.


The Eastern Orthodox Church stands for and affirms life from conception until natural death as does the Roman and Eastern Catholic Churches.

Now, within the Orthodox Church there are different opinions on birth control but I don't believe that makes the Orthodox Church not 100% pro-life.

If the differences on contraception makes the Orthodox not pro-life then would you argue that the Orthodox Church is not 100% for the family because she allows, under certain circumstances, divorce?
Posted By: JDC

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 03/25/13 04:21 PM

Everybody allows divorce. It's the remarriage that gets sticky.
Posted By: RussianCath

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 04/27/13 03:42 PM

For my own conscience' sake, a few statements I made in the past on this particular post I repudiate, after having made a more in depth study of the holy faith. They include:

1. The idea that BOTH Catholics and Orthodox formally make up the Church of Christ. They do not. The Catholic Church has always taught that the Church is one, and it's formal members are those in union with the head of the Church, the Successor of St. Peter. To believe otherwise is religious indifferentism, and a denial of the Catholic faith-in actuality it also destroys the idea of having any sort of Eastern Catholic Churches. What's the point of the Eastern Catholic Churches if the Orthodox are fine as they are, and "conversion from one Church to another" is now "outdated ecclesiology"?

2. The idea of Papal Primacy AND Infallibility are heretical-no they are not. I thankfully had the good fortune to have a very kind Coptic Catholic help me on these points.

I'm sure many-most-here will not agree with anything I have said, and I am not going to argue or debate with anyone here on these points, but I am no longer going to promote religious indifferentism in my life on this forum or anywhere. The traditionalists in the Church-will all their faults and wrong ideas-I admit, are right about this: the relativism in the Church today. I never saw so much in my life until I started on this forum. I even fell for it myself for a time! There is one true Church, the Catholic Church, period. The modernism that was once faught against by the hierarchs before Vatican II seems to be now the accepted norm, and most of the faithful follow it.
Posted By: StuartK

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 04/27/13 05:07 PM

Quote
The idea that BOTH Catholics and Orthodox formally make up the Church of Christ. They do not. The Catholic Church has always taught that the Church is one, and it's formal members are those in union with the head of the Church, the Successor of St. Peter.


Really. What is the earliest document that uses that particular formula?

Quote
To believe otherwise is religious indifferentism, and a denial of the Catholic faith-in actuality it also destroys the idea of having any sort of Eastern Catholic Churches.


So, I'm indifferent. The Eastern Catholic Churches are an accident of history. Our only purpose for existing today is to facilitate reconciliation between the Church of Rome and the Orthodox Churches--both of which are equally culpable for their separation, and both of which are equally damaged by that separation. As Bishop John Michael of Canton puts it, "Our vocation is to disappear". Anything that interferes with that vocation is bad.

Quote
The idea of Papal Primacy AND Infallibility are heretical-no they are not. I thankfully had the good fortune to have a very kind Coptic Catholic help me on these points.


Since these are essentially issues of ecclesiastical governance and not central to the faith of the Church, they are not really issues to be discussed as heretical or not. Rather, they are issues to be understood and judged against an objective reading of Church history and the development of doctrine. The Papacy exists to serve the Church, not the Church to glorify the Papacy.
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 04/28/13 08:17 AM

Originally Posted by RussianCath
What's the point of the Eastern Catholic Churches if the Orthodox are fine as they are, and "conversion from one Church to another" is now "outdated ecclesiology"?


(emphasis added)

Non-sequitor. What does the first part of that sentence (before the "if") have to do with the second part?

But anyhow, thank you for your last post. It's good to have a clear view of what your position is.
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 04/28/13 08:19 AM

Originally Posted by StuartK
both of which are equally culpable for their separation, and both of which are equally damaged by that separation.


Well, my general reaction to Branch Theory is that it's simply wrong.

On the other hand, I think one could say that it depends what we mean by "Branch Theory". Even so, to say that they are "equally damaged by that separation" seems a bit presumptuous to me (which is saying a lot, coming from me, since I hardly ever think you're being presumptuous ;)).
Posted By: BenjaminRH

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 04/28/13 03:59 PM

I am not seeking to cause any emotional rifts or issues. *NOT a troll* I truly am on the fence. Like many Catholics, my faith was severely injured by the sex abuse scandals, and I spent several years wandering in the Episcopalian denomination and elsewhere.

But in my time away, I took account of Orthodox arguments against papal supremecy, and they frankly make sense. Even reading Acts 15, the Council of Jerusalem- the earliest days of the Church- they do not evince supreme Roman domination of the entire global Church.

But the ethnic and jurisdictional divisions in Orthodoxy are severely damaging, in my humble opinion, and it prevents millions of potential converts from joining them. Though they are united by the common faith, yes, the appearance of division is a reality for many; it appears like Protestant anarchy, even though the churches are indeed united by faith.

I am a fence-sitter. I think part of the reason I remain in the Roman Catholic communion is to retain unity in my soon-to-be marriage; my fiancee is a devout and lovely Catholic woman, and I have currently stayed religiously identified as Roman Catholic because of her.
Posted By: BenjaminRH

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 04/28/13 04:03 PM

The Orthodox accept the traditional papal primacy of the ancient Church, do they not? Do they not support the "first among equals?"

It is the supremecy they reject. There was a time when St. Paul even rebuked St. Peter. How the ages changed the Church!
Posted By: 8IronBob

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 04/28/13 04:19 PM

Well, it was because of the New Roman Missal as well as hearing news that my old friend Fr. Dennis Hrubiak was being elevated to Mitred Archpriest that got me interested in coming back to the Byzantine tradition after 20 years in the Latin Rite. I just felt that it would also provide a better, more deeper theology and more uplifting spirituality to eventually even canonically become Byzantine after a while.

While the Roman Catholic Church might be fine, and still the larger Rite in this country, and I have been brought up Latin, though had previous experience with the Ruthenian tradition having served, and having dual-Rite education in the Catholic faith, etc... It just seems that it's a great time to recapture the old spirit, and unite myself into the "second lung" and bring myself to closer prayer with the Divine Lord through this.

My mother and I were sitting at a table during the coffee social after today's Matins and Divine Liturgy that actually came from Protestant Churches, one was a minister at what my mother called the, I forgot what she called it, but those Non-Denominational Churches. It was an interesting chat, they were talking about the 1517 history, and how they said that the Catholic Church got "too Catholic" if there's such a thing, and that Martin Luther noticed this, and was the reason behind the 95 Theses. But at the same time, it seems like they are trying to work Catholic Theology into their homilies, and felt they had plenty of input and inspiration through the Byzantine Rite of the Catholic Church to do so. Really a lot to digest, and I felt some of what they talked about went over my head at times, but it was worth the listen.

All in all, I think I'm rather proud with the Ruthenian Church, and hope that through prayer, and through making sure that the voice is heard in both Rites, that we will rebound, and become stronger over time, and that true union will come, and that we may all be one again. The Divine Lord will definitely guide us through all paths leading to our heavenly reward. There are many different spiritualities, many different expressions, but we all come to the same truth, and the same Christ and Saviour for all. We can all agree on that.
Posted By: ConstantineTG

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 05/08/13 04:57 PM

Wow, this thread is still ongoing?

Anyway, I'm Orthodox now, if anybody is keeping tabs on the original theme of this thread.
Posted By: ConstantineTG

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 05/08/13 05:14 PM

Originally Posted by Nelson Chase

The Eastern Orthodox Church stands for and affirms life from conception until natural death as does the Roman and Eastern Catholic Churches.


Definitely. There is even a special day in the Liturgical year, at least in the OCA, dedicated in praying for the preservation of life in the womb.

Originally Posted by Nelson Chase

Now, within the Orthodox Church there are different opinions on birth control but I don't believe that makes the Orthodox Church not 100% pro-life.


There is a differentiation between killing a conceived human being, and preventing one from ever existing. Also the Orthodox Church doesn't just allow contraception. Remember that the goal of every Orthodox Christian is control of the passions. We just acknowledge that we can't ask people to stop cold turkey on their passions. So if someone becomes Orthodox, we can't say, "okay, you're baptized and chrismated now, stop having sex unless you really want kids." Or the other way around, "we'll only baptize and chrismate you if you can control your sexual urge." No. It is a process. Allowance for contraceptives is an aid in that process as you wean the person off this and hopefully through prayer and fasting and other spiritual exercises, the person can have better control over their urges and one day you don't even need to have the person use contraceptives.

Originally Posted by Nelson Chase

If the differences on contraception makes the Orthodox not pro-life then would you argue that the Orthodox Church is not 100% for the family because she allows, under certain circumstances, divorce?


Well divorce is always a sin in the Orthodox Church. There is no reason to dissolve a marriage, it is never hid under a pretense of "nullity" based on trivial factors. Sacraments are always about getting you to the Kingdom of God. So if remarriage is more beneficial for a person than forcing them to be celibate (and they can and they end up fornicating and also leaving the Church) then it is better to remarry than to hang the person out to dry. This will be up to the priest to determine and bishop to approve, the Church doesn't remarry just anyone who wants to remarry. Of course this doesn't discount that some priests and bishops may be more lax about this than others, it does happen. But we'd rather have someone remarry and stay within the Church and hopefully grow spiritually, rather than impose celibacy then the person leaves the Church and remarries anyway.
Posted By: Nelson Chase

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 05/08/13 05:31 PM

I understand and agree with the Orthodox teaching you laid out. I was just responding to the acquisition that Orthodoxy isn't 100% pro-life.
Posted By: Nelson Chase

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 05/08/13 05:37 PM

Quote
I understand and agree with the Orthodox teaching you laid out. I was just responding to the acquisition that Orthodoxy isn't 100% pro-life.


I meant accusation. When will the edit button come back?
Posted By: ConstantineTG

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 05/08/13 05:43 PM

Cheers!

I was also just elaborating on your points. Admittedly I'm lazy and I don't want to back read biggrin
Posted By: mardukm

Re: Why are you Catholic and not Orthodox? - 05/11/13 03:54 PM

I am Catholic simply because I do believe with all my heart, mind, and soul that Christ Himself established a head servant for HIS ENTIRE Church, and that this is what the early Church believed and practiced as well. This is a theological-ecclesiological premise and reality that cannot be found in any apostolic Church to any unified/dogmatic degree except in the Catholic communion of Churches. Even with all its problems, it was still Christ's wish that HIS ENTIRE household should have a head servant.

I do think that Orthodox Churches can have a tendency to place an unhealthy emphasis on small "t" traditions that becomes detrimental to Church unity. This feature is more marked in the Eastern Churches, rather than the Oriental Churches, though. No doubt, lack of appreciation of small "t" traditions can also have a detrimental effect on Church unity -- though I notice it's normally the "traditionalists" who will cause the disunity.

While Orthodoxy keeps the unity of Faith just as well as the Catholicism, it must be kept in mind that Church unity per se, according to Christ, is supposed to be a witness to the world that does not know Christ -- so it is a unity that must be obvious to the non-believer right off the bat. In this particular facet of our common mission to the world, I do believe that the Catholic Churches do a much better job of advancing this witness than the Orthodox Churches ever could.

Otherwise, I am Coptic in heart, mind and soul.

Blessings,
Marduk
© 2019 The Byzantine Forum