Glory to God for all things.

Dear friends,

The local Ukrainian Catholic parish will be restoring the Stations of the Cross as part of their Lenten services. The Stations have been gone for nearly five years. They were removed when the present pastor took over the parish. He was born and raised in Odessa. A small but influential group in the parish missed the practice.

The pastor resolved the "controversia" by allowing the laity to hold the service at noon during the Fridays of Lent. The pastor will not be present. I spoke with the sacristan. He is not looking forward to the upcoming Fridays. He must remove 14 icons and then replace them with the 14 stations. Then after the service he must remove the stations and replace the icons. He is "convert" from Orthodoxy and did not understand the Way of the Cross.

What do members of the forum think of this development?

Most Holy Theotokos of Fatima, save us.
RusOrthCath Martyrs and Confessors, pray for us.

[ 02-26-2002: Message edited by: PaulOrthCathConfessor ]

Paul,
Ahh yes Nativity of the BVM Ukie Cathoic Church. I am very supprised because Fr. Oleh and his parish is one of more eastern one in our eparchy. Yes will have to take down the icons for the stations. At least Fr. Oleh won't be there for the service. Other than these stations, this parish up the coast from me x() is very eastern with processions and all. I think their website is www.ukrainiancatholicla.com [ukrainiancatholicla.com] or .org Its amazing that these small little groups has such influence. I thik the problem is that our priests need to get more firm on these matters. If you let this go, then next comes Sacred heart or whatever. Are the people that will be going anti Vatican 2 or just latinized eastern catholics? thanks
-ukrainiancatholic

its www.ukrainiancatholicla.org [ukrainiancatholicla.org]
-ukiecath

Just to let you know: the served the Stations of the Cross in Moscow Patriarchate churches in Galicia throughout the "occupation" period, or whatever you want to call it (1946-1990).

There is an alternative to this service for the Orthodox. It was composed by (St.) Peter, Metropolitan of Kyiv (Kiev) to be an alternative to the Stations of the Cross. It is called Pasii, and it was served everey Sunday during Lent after Sunday night Vespers at Sviato Georgivsky Sobor (MP) in Lviv.

It is quite an interesting service and I think that we should offer it instead of the Stations of the Cross, since the Pope himself did say that we should stop serving Stations of the Cross and Suplicatsii.

Daniil

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Dear Ukrainian Catholic and Daniil

Yes, Fr. Oleh has really done much to de-latinize the parish. many of the younger generation have really embraced the more Orthodox practices.

Allow me answer your qestions. The people who want the Way of the Cross are older latinised Ukie Catholics. They tend to complain about every little change. They want Stations. They want to pray the rosary before the liturgy. They prefer to kneel during the anaphora and after Communion. They want a Nativity display of statues for Christmas. They prefer to go Confession in the old Confessional, etc.

I don't think that substuting "Pasii" for stations would satisfy these people. Their notion of tradition comes from their childhood. Most of these parishoners came up during the 1940's and 1950's. These were the same decades when the push for latinisation was the strongest in the Ukrainian Church. Such is their spirituality.

Where might I acquire the text for this service?

Most Holy Theotokos of Fatima, save us.
RusOrthCath Martyrs and Confessors, pray for us.

I think that one aspect of serving the people is to recognize that when people grew up with a particular devotion, it is cruel to remove it from them. Fr. is right in allowing this, and he is also correct in not serving it himself. The Church must always meet people where they are, and try to lead them to Christ. Education is a part of this process. But the older folks are not interested in education, they are interested in their relationship wity God as they understand it.

Permission for this does not mean more Latinizations, but can instead become a way to lead the people to a deeper understanding of the mysteries in our Churches. It's a "negotiating" point if you will.

Edward, deacon and sinner

I think the fact that the pastor is not presiding at the Stations of the Cross says something. Perhaps that is the response necessary to meet the needs of this group, which may not be the needs of everyone.

We have Stations in Ukrainian here a few weekday mornings for the older people, once on Wed. evening in English and the Presanctified Liturgy on Friday evenings in English.

It took quite a bit of nagging to have the evening Presanctified Liturgy. We had a good turn out for the first Friday, and the numbers dwindled a bit this past week.

I myself disapprove of the Stations in English. A significant majority of the folks that are not "bilingual" are coming to our parish to learn about Eastern Christianity, and I think having Stations of the Cross, (even with prostrations) is not giving them the best example of Byzantine Lenten Services.

On the other hand, I really only have time to attend the evening Presanctified during the week. Most of our long time parishioners are really only familiar with the Liturgy of St. John Chrysosotm since we were a mission for so many years and not really interested in "de-latinizing" much. Any change seems to erupt into some major squabble.

Hope others are having better luck!

With Best Wishes;
Stefan

What is the Ukrainian term for "Way of the Cross"?

Have any of you Ukrainians actually seen Ukrainian stations? By this I mean stations which resemble icons. Have you ever seen stations with Ukrainain inscriptions? In the Roman Church Stations was often followed by Benediction. Was this also true in the Ukrainian Church?

I might actually attend. I have never attended Stations in an Eastern Church.

Most Holy Theotokos of Fatima, save us.
RusOrthCath Martyrs and Confessors, pray for us.

GLORY TO JESUS CHRIST!
GLORY TO HIM FOREVER!

PaulOrthCathConfessor wrote:"...Have any of you Ukrainians actually seen Ukrainian stations? By this I mean stations which resemble icons..."

Yes, Paul I have. My ikon teacher just completed several sets of ikon Sations of the Cross. They turned out very well, surprisingly...

I'll see if he has any pics of them posted.

the least servant of the servants of God
mark

Dear Paul,

What an interesting discussion!

The Passiyi or "Passion" that St Peter Mohyla instituted were actually a remake of the Stations of the Cross which, as a private devotion, were very popular among Orthodox Christians of the Kyivan Baroque period.

As a matter of fact, St Tikhon of Zadonsk ONLY had a life-size series of icons or pictures depicting the Way of the Cross in his cell - and no others.

The "Way of the Cross" rather than "Stations" is "Khresna Doroha" in Ukrainian.

Orthodox Churches in western Ukraine and elsewhere DO hold this devotion and actually place 15 pictures of the Way of the Cross AROUND THE CHURCH. The 15th is the Resurrection.

I have a copy of the Stations or Way of the Cross in Ukrainian. If you would like it, I would gladly mail you a copy, just send me a mailing address.

Some pastors, to avoid breaking the rule that services must be done facing East, do the Stations at the Tetrapod before the Cross.

It is interesting that Eastern Catholics have qualms about this devotion when certain Orthodox Churches in Eastern Europe are not only practicing this "glorious devotion" as the booklet says, but actually hopes that ALL CHURCHES adopt it! Orthodox prayer books also have suplicatsiyi at the back and these are practiced "over there" today as well.

Whatever the Holy Father said about these, his ruling was not "ex cathedra" and, as Fr. Deacon Ed said, the wishes of the people will be respected.

St Alexis Toth was most careful with his former Catholic converts to Orthodoxy and did nothing to dissuade them from their Catholic private devotions so as not to do them spiritual harm. It was because of his attitude on this score that some Russian bishops suspected him of "Jesuit leanings." (He was a former Basilian priest and so "Jesuit.")

The Kyivan Baroque period also produced the Orthodox devotion to the Rosary, the Little Office of Our Lady, the Psalter of Our Lady and other purely Western devotions.

Remember that Latin was the "lingua franca" of the intellectual classes of that day and many Orthodox students went to Paris where they even brought back with them the devotion to the Immaculate Conception and there were Orthodox Brotherhoods devoted to the Immaculate Conception whose members made the "bloody vow" or the vow to defend to the death the Immaculate Conception.

Their prayer was "All Immaculate Mother of God, save us!"

And they wore the medal of the Immaculate Conception.

This isn't a weakness of the Orthodox Church, but one of her many strengths.

That we get our noses out of shape over these things speaks to our unnecessary hang-ups.

We should take as our example, in my view, that of Reader Sergius, an Orthodox Christian who is dedicated to Orthodoxy and yet is someone who feels at home in the Western religious cultural milieu as well.

Alex

Dear Friends:

The devotion to the Stations of the Cross amoungst Roman Catholics is relatively recent.

I have yet to see a set of Stations that are older than 100 years.

I think that the devotion was promoted by the Redemptorists and St.... [for the life of me I can't remember his name] wrote a devotional guide.

Considering the history of western Ukraine it's understandable that the older parishiners want to maintain the devotion.

I must compliment their priest for being so understanding and hope that the sacristans are very patient.

As long as this is just a Lenten occurance there really is no harm in it.

This too will pass.


defreitas

Dear Jose,

Actually, it was the Franciscans in the Holy Land that first set up the Stations.

They were the custodians there and the original "Way of the Cross" from which the Stations were derived dates back several centuries.

St Louis de Montfort was famous for setting up his "Calvaries" with the Stations and the real promoter of this devotion was St Leonard of Port-Maurice who placed hundreds of Stations in Churches throughout his life-time.

It is truly popular among Eastern Catholics and Orthodox in Western Ukraine and elsewhere.

If I were a priest (and not "just a layman" although, as I've said, I don't believe that is entirely my fault ), I would leave a Stations of the Cross in a parish where it is popular.

At the same time, I would promote the Passiyi, as our dearest friend Daniil has said, and the Akathist to the Passion and to the Cross at the same time.

This is what I've seen other Eastern priests do.

Alex

Dear Alex:

I know about the Holy Land origins of the Stations of the Cross devotions. I also must assume that it was the Franciscans who promoted the idea.

But as far as I know the devotion did not really become common in Europe till the 19th century.

As a example, none of the Churches in Portugal have old Stations and most just put up 19th century framed prints. We do have a somewhat older tradition in the country, where large towns or cities have out-door stations placed in individual Chapels around the town. These were used only during Holy week as part of Easter processions.

I remember reading that Canadian artist Antoine Plamendon was commissioned to paint a set of Stations for Notre Dame Basilica in Montreal in the late 1830s. Not being familiar with the devotion he painted biblical scenes from the passion of Christ. These stations were put up in the Church but were later replaced because the images did not correspond to the newly printed books coming from Europe.

P.S.
The Redemptorist saint who wrote a very popular Stations devotion, which I was trying to remember, was St. Alphonsus Liguori.


defreitas

I wonder if the Stations developed in three stages, rather than two, as often assumed. The first, the processional stations in Jerusalem, second, outdoor procession brought to Europe by the Franciscans, third, moving it indoors in the cold climates such as Germany, Austria, Ukraine, etc.

Axios

Paul,
St. Nicholas Cathedral has mosaic Icon Stations. In Ukraine, Icon stations were flowing everwhere, especially in the Basillian institutions.
-ukrainiancatholic

Dear Friends,

This topic is of great interest and the posts are particularly interesting. Does anyone have any more information about the Studite Fathers that could be either posted or a URL given for reference? In particular I would be interested in their horarium. Also there is apparently a set of books called the Studite Spiritual Library, or something like that. I have a copy of a little book about Leonid Feodorov from that collection and would like to know about other titles. I have tried to call the Studite Fathers in Woodstock, ON, but no one answers the phone.

Has anyone translated the Pasii into English? If so, where might a copy be obtained?

Many thanks and all the best,
Woody

Alexis Toth was a former Basilian? What? Are you sure, Alex?

Daniil

Dear Daniil,

According to the Life of St Alexis Toth that I have from the OCA, yes, he was a former Basilian priest.

The first Lemko Orthodox Martyr, St Maxim Sandovich, was also in a Basilian seminary, although I believe he left before receiving tonsure.

St Arsenius Matsievich of Rostov, glorified a saint in August of AD2000, was also an Eastern Catholic before returning to Orthodoxy and I believe he was in a Basilian monastery as well.

Believe it or not . . .

Alex

Dear Jose,

You are right, of course.

But the great promoter of the Stations as we know them today was St Leonard of Port-Maurice who started his crusade in this respect at the end of the seventeenth century.

St Francis, who was famous for his stigmata, promoted a tremendous veneration for the Passion of Christ and the Way of the Cross, beginning in his life-time, although we don't know what this consisted of. There was more than one version and the Orthodox St Tikhon Zadonsky had his own series of "Stations" in his cell, as his Life bears out.

The Stations of the Cross in Jerusalem which I walked, the Via Dolorosa is certainly older than the 19th century.

On the other hand, even if the Stations of the Cross were a relatively recent event (although certainly before the 19th century), this did not prevent Orthodox saints of the Kyivan Baroque period, such as St Dmitry of Rostov and others from adopting versions of the Way of the Cross for their own private devotions, devotions that, under St Peter Mohyla, led to the development of the Passiyi.

The Passiyi are a rare example of a "para-liturgical" service in the Orthodox church that parallel, in many ways, the Stations of the Cross.

They are divided into five parts and were served following the Liturgy on five Sundays of Great Lent and still are served in Ukrainian Orthodox Churches. It is a "peculiarity" of Ukrainian Orthodoxy.

Today, the Stations of the Cross have similarly become a "para-liturgical" service in Ukrainian Orthodoxy and elsewhere, although it is certainly not popular in Russian Orthodoxy.

There were many other such devotions peculiar to the Ukrainian Orthodox tradition that the Russian Church stamped out, as is described by Basil Lypkivsky in his ethnological works.

One such devotion is that to the "Pieta" or the Mother of God holding Her Son in Her lap following the Crucifixion.

In the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, this was called the devotion to the "Tenth Friday" (following Easter).

The Russian Church forbade this devotion, but in many areas of Eastern Ukraine, this feast was observed, and using Ukrainian Catholic texts, often kept hidden ("pod spudom").

Ukrainian Orthodoxy also developed such devotions as the veneration for "The Wounded Side of Christ" that closely paralleled the Sacred Heart devotion.

St Dmitry of Rostov practiced all these devotions, including that of the Rosary (also practiced by St Seraphim of Sarov and many Russians).

Again, nomatter how old the Stations of the Cross is, as we know it, that should not and will not prevent Eastern CAtholics AND Orthodox from practicing it.

On a personal note, during the Great Fast, I use the Orthodox version of the Stations for the 15 decades of the Rule of the Mother of God.

Alex

Dear Folks,

The West developed the Stations of the Cross and the East developed the Litija Service, both being processional liturgies derived partly from the liturgical practices of Jerusalem.

Why can't the East just do Vespers with Litija since it has a common history with the Stations? What exactly is it in the Ukrainian mindset that they have to be something they are not? Isn't our traditions good enough? This shows how we define ourselves not by who we are but by what we do. We do Latin services, therefore, we are Catholic.

My family spent time in the Ukrainian Cath. Church and today most descendents are going to Roman Catholic Churches and will NEVER step foot in a Byzantine Catholic Church. Most are clueless about anything Eastern Christian. But they are all happy about keeping their "Catholic" faith elsewhere. The Ukranian Cath. parishes I know are senior citizen parishes. But they have their Stations! This is a dying Church. I've never met a Church that has hated itself so much!


Cantor Joe

[ 02-28-2002: Message edited by: J Thur ]

Dear Woody,

The Studites basically use the translation of the Horologion or Horarium that was approved by Patriarch Josef Slipyj.

They also have a beautiful Ukrainian Psalter with the complete prayers at the end of each Kathisma.

All of this is, alas, in Ukrainian.

The Passiyi have not been translated into English as yet, I don't believe.

Fr. Serge Keleher had his own English translation that he ALWAYS served at his former Toronto parish of St Seraphim of Sarov.

You might want to e-mail him, I believe Anthony Dragani, that indefatigable defender of our Church, has his e-mail.

Again, the Passiyi are a peculiarity of the Kyivan Church dating from St Peter Mohyla the Metropolitan.

Peter Mohyla was of Royal blood and was in line to become Prince of Moldavia, as he was of Roumanian background.

He had strong Royal blood ties to many Roman Catholic families in Europe, including Poland.

Any "Latinizations" that he evinced came from his own wide European education, however.

He became Archimandrite of the Kyivan Caves Lavra and Metropolitan (with Patriarchal powers) of Kyiv-Halych and all Rus'.

He donated what would today be millions of dollars of his own money and inheritance to the restoration of Churches etc. especially St Sophia of Kyiv, the "Mother of all Churches of Rus'" as he himself wrote.

I recommend veneration of St Peter Mohyla to all Catholics and Orthodox!

Alex

Fr. Toth was a widowed priest (see his conversation with the dearly departed Abp. Ireland) and was a curial official of the Presov Eparchy. (Wouldn't a Basilian have to be a monastic -- not eparchial -- priest?)

The OCA was not exactly scrupulous about researching his life. I informed them exactly in what village he was born, yet the official biography placed his birth merely "near Eperjes". I guess if Baltimore is "near Philadelphia" that's about right.

RichC: you're right on (in my opinion)!

It was precisely because he was a widower that the whole conflict arose. I wouldn't doubt it if any celebate priest was considered a Basilian at that time, just as any monk was considered a Basilian.

Dear RichC,

Yes, he did leave the Basilians to get married, as did St Maxim Sandovich.

I don't know if he was actually tonsured a Basilian, but he certainly spent time in a Basilian monastery and seminary and early developed an aversion for their "Jesuit" theology, as did Sandovich and Matsievich.

This is interesting, since other Orthodox saints of the Kyivan Baroque period were immersed in western theology and devotions such as Dmitri of Rostov and Peter Mohyla.

Alex

Dear Daniil,

Actually, St Alexis Toth became violently anti-Roman because of his earlier training by the Basilians.

This is shown in his published diaries where he constantly crossed swords with Basilian and Redemptorist missionaries sent to quell the surging tide of Eastern Catholic conversion to Orthodoxy.

He referred to such missionaries as, forgive me, "jerks."

He was personally convinced of the "error" of the Roman way.

And, at the same time, Orthodox bishops regarded him with great suspicion.

Alex

Dear Cantor Joe,

The Ukrainian Catholic Church is not dying, my friend.

What you have described occurred as a result of the unique conditions in your Grand Republic of the Melting Pot, not as a result of devotions.

In Western Ukraine itself, the Ukrainian Catholic church is flowering as is the Ukrainian Orthodox Church and BOTH have the Stations of the Cross, the 40 Hours devotion, the Rosary etc.

I've met priests from BOTH Churches who would take you on, best two out of three falls, over these devotions.

Entire parishes join in continual Adoration before the Blessed Sacrament. Each one has their particular hour, even small children.

The idea that somehow there is a predetermined "true Eastern" way of doing things versus the "Western" is simply unhistorical and unsociological.

Rather than dismissing these devotions, we could perhaps reflect on some reasons WHY they are so popular with both Catholics and Orthodox.

Certainly, western devotions, in both the Ukrainian Catholic and Orthodox Churches, have had the cultural effect of keeping Russification at bay. In our community, if someone is very "Orthodox" he is immediately considered a Russophile. Don't shoot the messenger . . .

Also, the notion of "Catholic" versus "Orthodox" is a theoretical one. There is the Ukrainian Community and Churches, the Russian etc. each of which developed and borrowed from other traditions under the historical and social circumstances in which they lived and developed.

This idea of "Our traditions" that, as our pastor said, "Extreme Easterners" keep throwing up at us is quite meaningless.

Most Ukrainians wouldn't recognize those traditions as being remotely "ours" and yet we are chastised for adhering to them.

That ethnic churches in the U.S. are dying out is a result of your Republic's policy with respect to the domination of mainstream English culture. This policy is also having an impact on the Byzantine Catholic Church that is regarded by the ecclesial mainstream as "ethnic" as well.

When you become a priest and go into a parish that has the Stations of the Cross, then you can speak with some authority over "our traditions" when the people shake their fist at you and say, "Don't you dare, Joe, stay away from that wall now, put that Station back or else!"

And it is no use pointing to Vatican documents about the Eastern rites etc.

Those who wrote them had and continue to have no idea about what life in Eastern Europe is like, historically and in contemporary times.

The recent Vatican action in Russia just shows that this is the case.

Your view here is rather naive and theoretical. But when you get ordained and work in an actual parish, you'll have to learn some things they don't teach in the seminary or that aren't written down in the Scriptures.

Sorry to have to say this, but so much for your apology to RichC over similar matters.

Alex

What is truly fascinating from a sociological point of view is the fact that Joe's home parish church and my Mom's home parish church are in essentially the same town (now, they are officially in the same town) and sit on opposite hills facing each other.



[ 02-28-2002: Message edited by: RichC ]

Alex,

My friend, I came from one of the most Latinized Byzantine Catholic parishes in the U.S. I can never understand why one has to go looking for devotions from other traditions when one has many traditions in one's own church. It is not so much what is done 'in place of' or as a 'substitute,' but the big WHY for the almost total eclipse of one's own devotions. You see, Alex, the majority of the children who attended our heavily Latinized parish are now attending Latin parishes even though a Byzantine Catholic parish is just down the street. Such is the legacy of teaching one's parishioners how to be a real Catholic. Adopt everything else and ignore your own. It is not a matter of doing and being ultra-Orthodox or an "extreme Easterner." And quite frankly, why are those who wish to celebrate their own liturgies for a change are labelled "extreme Easterners" and those who do not are not labelled at all? There is a certain bias here that I see that is highly defensive. One either celebrates one's church liturgies and devotions or one does not. Many have chosen not to. And many can come up with as many excuses as there are grains of sand on the beach. When does the excuses end and the educating and leading begin? I am not naive or theoretical, Alex. I've been instrumental in restoring our liturgies as a cantor for many years. What I run into is ignorance and deception from poor liturgists, but never had witnessed a raised fist from parishioners. What they want most of the time is an explanation, which is rarely given because of the poor methodologies used in implementing changes in how we act as church. Even cantors get instructions with absolutely no explanation, no date stamp, and no name from where they come from. What is needed is COMMUNICATION and PROPER EDUCATION; not through haughtiness (I'm more Orthodox than you!), not through fiat (Why don't you guys know how to do this, you stupid idiots?), and not through ignoring it (We don't do it because the people don't want it anyways; so let's do Stations and Adoration).

BTW, why do you need to "adore" the Eucharist? Isn't consuming it good enough? Isn't this the purpose of liturgy and communion: to "taste and see how good the Lord is" and not to adore it?

Joe

[ 02-28-2002: Message edited by: J Thur ]

My dear condescending, upset friend, Joe

Number one, referring to my name more than once in a post isn't necessary, and sounds "litany-like" - a Latinism in itself . (Calm down, will you!).

You have a different perspective on things that I respect, but respectfully disagree with. It's not the end of the world. If it makes you feel better, I'll say I agree with you

But in the event that I fight the charitable urge in me to do so, I'll just reiterate that membership in our Churches has as much to do with culture as with religion. In your mainstream, American culture, ethnic groups get run over, that's a fact.

And how do you think WASPish Americans view Byzantine onion-domed Churches? It makes them think of garlic! If our Churches are condemned in the US it is because they themselves express another cultural reality that is foreign to North American cosmopolitanism.

Practicing "our traditions" (whatever they are, we should really have a thread outlining them) is fine.

But you, as a future deacon and priest, should know that pastoral practicality will force you to do things that your Byzantine liturgical and scriptural studies have taught you not to.

I too started out as a "Bright-eyed Byzantine."

I discarded the rosary, stations etc. Today, I'm back with them, after years of experience attending all sorts of parishes and reading all sorts of books.

From a pastoral perspective as well, if devotion to the Blessed Sacrament (practiced by ALL the Byz CAtholic martyrs beatified by the Pope in Ukraine) brings people to church, then Orthodox and Catholic priests aren't going to downplay it.

As for the revered Litias etc., show me somewhere else where people will attend Church throughout a 24 hour period as they do in many parishes in western Ukraine.

The Orthodox and Catholic Priests who have these devotions are very happy and say that the people's faith has become very real and dynamic as a result.

If that's wrong, from an idealized and reified Byzantine or other perspective, then I don't want to be right.

Have a Great Fast!

Alex

Alex,

I started out as a "bright-eyed Latin" then later got educated by my Latin instructors at the seminary. Their main question: "Why do you guys have to keep doing stuff of ours all the time and why can't you all be yourselves for a change?"

This angered me because I kept arguing with them that my Tridentine-style parish WAS Byzantine through and through and that their labelling me as a Latinized Easterner was condescending. This was something that I had to live with for several years ... until I started to ask questions.

I should note that I have nothing against the practices I mentioned above. But the questions that kept bugging me were: Why do we ignore our own faith traditions? Why do we abhor them so much that we have to substitute them for someone elses? To prove we are Catholic? To prove we are not Orthodox? To prove something else? Is our goal in life to "prove" something? This seems to be more of a cultural identity thing than something dealing with a covenant relationship with God.

How can someone who was raised in the most Latinized parish in the U.S., educated in a Latin seminary, and have half of his family faithful devotees of the Latin Church get enlightened? My answer: EDUCATION!

Yes. Ethnicity and culture are important, but in many parishes and regions most marriages are not between Eastern Catholics, hence the ethnic/cultural thing gets demoted since a marriage may be more than a Ukrainian event. So, what is left when I and my brother marry Italians? Why do I go to church? I go to worship God.

Isaiah is a good Lenten reflection when it comes to the topic of satisfying God and not our personal 'needs' all the time. It is no wonder why our forefathers killed the prophets; they didn't want to hear it.

If our Byzantine liturgical and biblical studies are not quite with it in the cultural sense then why should we even bother studying them? For the sake of formality? To satisfy canonical requirements? To have something to do while going through some deacon or seminary program? What exactly does our faith in God center around and how do we come to know him? If studying and reflecting over the Scriptures is only a lip-service activity then I don't want to have anything to do with it. I'll go back to finance and mathematics.

I have received a lot of ridicule for wanting to study our Scriptures. Why would anyone in OUR church would want to do THAT? Maybe I should attend Stations of the Cross instead?


Joe

[ 02-28-2002: Message edited by: J Thur ]

Dear Joe,

O.K.

Hey, my mother's Italian too!

What can I say?

Alex

Joe,

There is nothing wrong with wanting to reclaim a heritage. There is nothing wrong in wanting to be as authentically Ukranian/Ruthenian/whateverian as possible. What is wrong is to damge the faith of the people in the process.

No matter what we want or like, the reality is that several generations of Byzantine Rite Catholics grew up thinking they had to be as much like the Latins as possible in order to be "real Catholics."

Recognizing that, we must also know that the very Latin things they do really does feed their faith. As Jesus told his disciples with regard to the man who worked miracles in Jesus' name but wasn't a part of the "in group" -- leave him alone, no one can work miracles in my name and at the same time speak ill of me. Whatever feeds their faith is good.

What we do is to slowly educate people about the great riches of the Eastern traditions. I preached a homily a couple of months ago. I pulled out my prayer rope and asked how many knew what it was. Many of the people said it was a rosary. I explained the tradition and let it go at that. Many of my Melkite parishoners pray the rosary -- that's what they grew up with.

I guess the bottom line is to recognize the need to minister to people where they are. Jesus did this with the Samaritan woman at the well. He started from where she was and led her to an encounter with the Messiah. We must do that with our people.

Edward, deacon and sinner

"Whatever feeds their faith is good."


Is it really faith that is being fed or a personal, psychological need? We often confuse many things with faith. Everything becomes faith. Change a tone, you are changing one's faith. Do a liturgical service that was substituted for years by a service from another traditions, you are "damaging" their faith. Doing "whatever" feeds their faith, just so it is not one of those damaging things. I am not convinced that it is a matter of faith for most. It ignores the fact that those who should have known our faith refused to put it into practice. The people only know, at times, what their pastors taught them - or fed them. Usually, the faith wasn't being handed down to them. I knew some priests who did anything for his people, usually disgruntled post-Vatican II Latin Catholics, who made big contributions to the parish.

I understand quite well that pastoral prudence must be present when gradually introducing old/new things. Unfortunately, many never even try to begin - or want to. I have discussed our traditions with parishioners for years and after they learned a little about what they were all about they were comfortable with it. Sadly, too many "returns" to our traditions were done poorly and with no tact. A common method was the ramming method. This is not good. It is not the tradition that is damaging but the method used to reinstitute it.


Joe

Joe,

You ask: If they are praying the rosary they are feeding their faith. If they are praying the stations of the cross they are feeding their faith. In fact, if they are praying they are feeding their faith.

If we look at Scripture we find a bunch of books about people and the relationship they had with their God. That relationship is formed in a particular way, the people respond in a way that they know. Just because people have adopted (or adapted) a tradition from another Ritual Church doesn't mean it's bad. It means they had a need and this tradition met that need.

Is it a psychological need? Of course! I serve as a deacon in part because I have a need to serve. When God calls he plants a need to respond to that call within us. Because God wants us to pray he plants a need to pray within us. How people pray is, in large part, conditioned by how they were taught to pray.

In my Melkite parish we have people who feel they are really praying only if they pray in Arabic! We have people who come to the iconostasis and genuflect before the icon of the Theotokas! Do I correct them for this? Of course not! What is there to correct? They are doing what they were taught to do and what they have done all their lives!

If I might be so blunt: learn to accept what doesn't need to be changed. Learn to recognize what should be changed, and prepare to spend a lifetime changing it. Also, recognize that somethings that should be changed will never be changed. That's a part of life. My pastor has been in our parish for more than 12 years -- and there are things he is still trying to change.

Edward, deacon and sinner

[ 02-28-2002: Message edited by: J Thur ]

Wisdom, let us attend!

<grin>

In IC XC
Samer

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Dear friends,

I never expected that this topic would generate so much interest!

I can see Joe Thur's point. I think that the pastor has handled the situation about as well as could be expected, perhaps even better. The process of de-latinization has not been easy. In many respects this Ukie Cath parish is just as Orthodox as the local Ukie Orth parishes.

Alex, you have mentioned a number of these fascinating Western Ukrainian practices before. It seems that the Ukie Cath hierarchy's notion of "Orthodoxy" is one that keeps Latin influence to a minimum. It is a crucial one. Just what does one mean by "Orthodox" or "Orthodox practices?" Can a parish be "Orthodox" and still have the Way of the Cross, the Rosary, etc.? Is a Ukrainian Catholic parish which strictly follows Orthodox practices actually more Orthodox than a "latinised" Ukrainian Orthodox parish?

Your point about the beatified Ukrainian and Carpatho-Rusyn martyrs is a good one. All of the bearded ones (except Bsp. Josafat) stictly followed traditional Orthodox litugical practices and encouraged others to do the same. These same martyrs also practiced certain Western devotions (e.g. Eucharistic Adoration, Rosary, Way of the Cross, etc.) The same is true of some other saintly Ukies like Mtr. Andrew Sheptitsky, Patr. Joseph Slipyi and Mtr Volodymyr Sterniuk.

Presviataya Bogoroditza Fatimskaya, spasi nas.
RusOrthCath Martyrs and Confessors, pray for us.

[ 02-28-2002: Message edited by: PaulOrthCathConfessor ]

Rich,

Get out of town! You're a Cambria County boy too!
St John the Baptist in Barnesboro (now Northern Cambria) was my introduction to the Byzantine Church. I grew up in Hastings about 5 miles away. I had relatives at St. John's and would attend Liturgy when I stayed with them. And that began road to the Byzantine Church.

Another interesting and ironic note. The whole reason there is a Ukrainian Church and a Ruthenian Church in a town so small is because as the Ruthenian Church of St. John's got Latinized the Eastern leaning parishioners followed a Ukrainian sympathetic priest and founded the new Immaculate Conception parish and went under the Ukrainian Catholic bishop. At least that is the story that I was told. Immaculate Conception is a beautiful and traditional Carpathian wooden church, beautiful iconostasis, etc. But today they are served by a biritual Syro-Malabar priest. The Liturgy is never sung and their claim to fame is now having the fastest (40 minute) Saturday night Liturgy in the area, Roman or Byzantine. On the other hand, St. John the Baptist Ruthenian, once one of the most Latinized Byzantine parishes you could find, is quietly restoring themselves (and SS. Peter and Paul in Patton as well) under the leadership of Fr. Don Valasek.

In Christ,
Lance, deacon candidate

Well, Lance, just a generation removed. I have fond memories of visiting my baba and aunts & uncles there in my early years. Even my aunt who was the last relative of mine who belonged to St. John's could describe how Latinized St. John's had become.

But as far as the origin of the Spangler parish (Immaculate Conception) -- it's not quite as you were told. Read the early history of St. John's that I wrote for their centennial in 1997. St. John's was actually an Orthodox church when that happened...

And when it returned to Catholicity, it was totally traditional at least until the 1930s. Msgr. John Yurcisin (one of the patriarchs of the American C-R Orth. Diocese) was an altar boy there and described to me how it was back then. The old church (destroyed by fire) was magnificent. Unfortunately, no photos of it seem to exist.

Rich,

Thanks for the correction. Do you have htat article on your computer? If so could you email it to me? My own ancestry is tied to St. John's. At one point my ancestors on my maternal grandmothers side were Greek Catholics. They were from Bardejov, Slovakia and considered themselves Slovak. At some point they left St. John's Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church for St. John's Slovak Roman Catholic Church next door. As an ethnic researcher, do you think any of the Greek Catholics from Slovakia were really Slovak or all Slovakized Rusyns?

In Christ,
Lance, deacon candidate

Lance, the article's on its way...

Lance,

Barnesboro!

That was my family's parish 100 years ago when they came over to work in the coal mines. They lived just down the street a block or two in what used to be a mining company house. They were Rusyn Greek Catholics from Kojsov - just west of Kocice near Gelnica. My baba came from Sumiac, a more Slovak Greek Catholic village near Levoca.

They later went and bougt a farm from a Civil War veteran who engineered the road from the Marstellar mine to the route leading to Nicktown. in 1917 up in Moss Creek (Marstellar). It is still operating today. Excellent beef!

They later went over to the Ukie parish when the courts padlocked St. John's church doors due to legal over ownership. I miss visiting and talking to the late Fr. Myron Holowinski at St. Mary's. He married my parents in the old St. Mary's church before they built that beautiful chruch in the 70s.

My current neighborhood has many from Cambria County. We know the East side of Cleveland as Little Cambria. Many came from back there in the 50s looking for work. I miss visiting St. John's and St. Mary's up on the other hill in Spangler.

Ever go to Farmer's Inn just south of Carroltown?

RichC,

I have some family that might have photos of the original St. Johns church. But trying to get old family photos is quite difficult. Such things are coveted and not shared.


Cantor Joe Thur

[ 03-03-2002: Message edited by: J Thur ]

Dear Joe,

That's very interesting about the photos. At the very least, I would be delighted to know if they do exist. Thanks! (Perhaps I was mistaken about which was your "home parish" but you mentioned that you were from the area and I knew that Thurs were from St. Mary's IC UCC.)

The photos would be for a massive book that I've been researching/writing (for over 10 years) on the history of "our people"'s churches & fraternal lodges, etc. in Pennsylvania.

My grandparents lived in Mosscreek for several years too.

[ 03-03-2002: Message edited by: RichC ]

RichC,

I will have to contact my distant relatives about the photos. After my grandmother died, the "funeral vultures" took a few.

Both parishes were "home parishes" for my father. St. John's was the first, then St. Mary's. My actual home parish was the Elko-ized highly Latin St. Stephen's in Euclid, Ohio, where a lot of Cambrian blood settled. Today, it is a very Byzantine Church with two wonderful priests.

Joe

[ 03-03-2002: Message edited by: J Thur ]

Dorohij Oleksander,

You are correct about the on-going tradition of "Stations" among the Transcarpathian Rusyn
Greek Catholic Churches of the Rusyn Eparchy of Mukachevo
and among the Rusyn Orthodox Churches under the Moscow Patriachate. I witnessed this with my on eyes this past June ('01). In the Transcarpathian Rusyn
village of Chudl'ovo, if you climb up the entire mountain, you will see 14 sations of the cross shrines with the 14th atop the summit. All of the
Transcarpathian Rusyn Orthodox Churches (even after re-painting and renovating) still "leave" the paintings of the Stations of the Cross on the walls. While their priests are very much Muscovites, they at least allow the Rusyn Plainchant to be sung in Church Slavonic, in it's original, musical form. Meanwhile, in the Slovakized environment of the Presov Greek Catholic Eparchy, the Rusyns are forced to have a
Latinized Divine Liturgy (complete with guitar accompaniment)"recited" in the Slovak vernacular (Can anyone say cultural and ethnic intimidation?).
Which is more Latinized? I'm glad my relatives are Orthodox, at least they control their churches
and continue to sing their Divine Liturgy in the Cyrill-Methodian Church Slavonic language, and don't let civil secularism dictate policy in their Eparchy!

Slava Ukrainia!(forgive me, RichC)

Ung-Certez

Dear Ung,

Thank you for sharing that!

St Tikhon Zadonsky, a great "radical" Christian who read and lived the Gospel, had "Stations" of the Cross in his cell - life-size as a matter of fact.

The Orthodox Metropolitan Innocent of Odessa wrote his beautiful Akathist to the Passion of Christ by way of reflecting the Stations liturgically and this is now part of the tradition of Orthodoxy.

The Orthodox Stations of the Cross begin with the Trisagion prayers, Ektenies, liturgical hymns at each Station and end with the 15th Station of the Resurrection.

Again, it is a tradition that has won its right of citizenship in certain areas of Eastern Europe by way of long-time usage, especially during the trials of war and occupation where the pain and suffering of the people is assuaged in meditation on the Passion of Christ.

As a private devotion, I would recommend saying a decade of the Rosary for each of these 15 stations throughout the Great Fast.

I'm in tears by the time I get to the end.

Tears can be very cleansing and soothing.

We don't cry enough . . .

Alex

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Dear Alex,

Thank you for the Way of the Cross, "Khresna Doroha." I still have been unable to visit the parish at the proper time. It is held at 12 Noon on Fridays. It is a bad time for me. I will try again tomorrow.

Two different versions of the Way of the Cross are availible from Basilian Press. Apparently this devotion is still popular among Ukrainians. These books are only listed in the Ukrainian section of the catalog.

Presviataya Bogoroditza Fatimskaya, spasi nas.
RusOrthCath Martyrs and Confessors, pray for us.

Paul,
Nativity of the BVM there in L.A. is very nationalistic, the have put tryzubs (national symbol) in the windows. I dont know if speaking Russian is the best idea, because they won't be too receiving. I know these people because we go to that church pretty often. I am not trying to be hard on you, I am just speaking from what I know about the parishoniers. Tell us about your expiernce at the church tommorow. Thanks,
-ukrainiancatholic

Paul,
How did it go at the church for the Stations of the Cross? Was Fr. Oleh there?
-uc

Dear Paul,

You are more than welcome!

Yes, how was the experience?

Forgive me a sinner,

Alex

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Dear friends,

I was unable to attend. I will try again this coming Friday. You are quite correct about the parish being rather "nationalistic." A few members of the congregation told me not to employ the "Moscow style" while at Nativity. I have been warned against kissing the base of the chalice after Communion. Sometimes parishoners stare if I bow at the invocation of the Holy Trinity or at the opening and closing of the royal doors.
I was also told not speak Russian at functions.

I have become quite comfortable there. I was asked to carry the cross in the procession on their patronal feast day. You can see me in the photographs. I am wearing a light blue jacket.

Presviataya Bogoroditza, spasi nas.
RusOrthCath Martyrs and Confessors, pray for us.

Paul,
I think its great that you are carrying the corss and participating there but I don't think doing Russian things is ok there. Many of the parishoners might have been members members of the UPA and like many of those soldiers they many lost friends and family due to Russian Comminists so it may cause bad feelings. Also speaking Russian to a Ukrainian can be very offensive. Sorry to sound negative but I guess a good rule is When in Rome do as the Romans, and when in a Ukie establishment, do as them (except for latinizations hehehe).
-ukrainiancatholic

Dear Paul,

How fascinating!

I kiss the base of the Chalice all the time and no one has ever said anything to me. If they did, they would remember our encounter for all time . . .

That in itself is a Kyivan devotion introduced in Kyiv in the time of St Peter Mohyla!

He also approved of the practice of people lining up, following Communion, toward the side table so that the priest could touch their heads with the Chalice on his way there.

Bowing after the invocation to the Trinity? Again, a practice that is Eastern and not simply "Russian."

Perhaps, and I'm only guessing, if they've pegged you as a "Russkie" then anything you do that is even slightly different from what this Latinized bunch does is considered "Russian."

But, good for you for putting up with that nonsense!

God bless,

Alex