www.byzcath.org
Why is Bishop Kurt ordering his Priests not to give any Conscientious objection support to Byzantine Catholics who are pro life and refuse the abortion tainted covid-19 shot according to Catholic Church doctrine and are in jepordy of losing their jobs.
You were answered already. Rome found the Moderna and Pfizer vaccines morally acceptable. You don’t want to accept it, that is your problem.
Originally Posted by jvf
Why is Bishop Kurt ordering his Priests not to give any Conscientious objection support to Byzantine Catholics who are pro life and refuse the abortion tainted covid-19 shot according to Catholic Church doctrine and are in jepordy of losing their jobs.
What exactly did Bishop Kurt order? I just want to be able to distinguish his words and intent from your interpretation.
Bishop Kurt ordered his Priests not to issue any Conscientious Objection support statements to anyone, just like the Latin Rite Bishops like dolan and caggiano of CT already have.
I was told this by a Byzantine Catholic Priest in the Eparchy of Passaic after I asked him to add a statement of support to my Conscientious Objection statement based on
refusing to take the covid-19 shot that was mandated by my employer.
I told my employeer that I am pro life and basing my refusal on Catholic Church Doctrine on abortion because the mRNA shot was tested on aborted STEM cells taken while the baby was alive
tand hen murdered by abortion.
If I refuse I will be not be fired but it will be considered a "voluntary resignation" and accrding to New York State unemployment I will not receive any unemployment pay.
Believe me this is the truth!
Originally Posted by jvf
Bishop Kurt ordered his Priests not to issue any Conscientious Objection support statements to anyone, just like the Latin Rite Bishops like dolan and caggiano of CT already have.
I was told this by a Byzantine Catholic Priest in the Eparchy of Passaic after I asked him to add a statement of support to my Conscientious Objection statement based on refusing to take the covid-19 shot that was mandated by my employer.
I told my employeer that I am pro life and basing my refusal on Catholic Church Doctrine on abortion because the mRNA shot was tested on aborted STEM cells taken while the baby was alive tand hen murdered by abortion.
If I refuse I will be not be fired but it will be considered a "voluntary resignation" and accrding to New York State unemployment I will not receive any unemployment pay.
Believe me this is the truth!

I'm sorry for your situation and will pray for you and that you prevail. The Vatican's CDF and various groups of US bishops have issued guidelines and explanations for why it is morally licit with a disclaimer:
Quote
3. The fundamental reason for considering the use of these vaccines morally licit is that the kind of cooperation in evil (passive material cooperation) in the procured abortion from which these cell lines originate is, on the part of those making use of the resulting vaccines, remote. The moral duty to avoid such passive material cooperation is not obligatory if there is a grave danger, such as the otherwise uncontainable spread of a serious pathological agent[3]--in this case, the pandemic spread of the SARS-CoV-2 virus that causes Covid-19. It must therefore be considered that, in such a case, all vaccinations recognized as clinically safe and effective can be used in good conscience with the certain knowledge that the use of such vaccines does not constitute formal cooperation with the abortion from which the cells used in production of the vaccines derive. It should be emphasized, however, that the morally licit use of these types of vaccines, in the particular conditions that make it so, does not in itself constitute a legitimation, even indirect, of the practice of abortion, and necessarily assumes the opposition to this practice by those who make use of these vaccines.

Also, "that vaccination is not, as a rule, a moral obligation and that, therefore, it must be voluntary," and allows that there are "[t]hose who ... for reasons of conscience, refuse vaccines produced with cell lines from aborted fetuses":

Quote
5. At the same time, practical reason makes evident that vaccination is not, as a rule, a moral obligation and that, therefore, it must be voluntary. In any case, from the ethical point of view, the morality of vaccination depends not only on the duty to protect one's own health, but also on the duty to pursue the common good. In the absence of other means to stop or even prevent the epidemic, the common good may recommend vaccination, especially to protect the weakest and most exposed. Those who, however, for reasons of conscience, refuse vaccines produced with cell lines from aborted fetuses, must do their utmost to avoid, by other prophylactic means and appropriate behavior, becoming vehicles for the transmission of the infectious agent.
[emphasis added in both quotes]

Though not an explicit Conscientious Objection endorsement, the basis of such consideration is in the quoted Note on the morality of using some anti-Covid-19 vaccines from the CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH. If you haven't read it in full already, you should do so as providing a basis for your objection. Realize that it is your objection and not a test case for the the legitimacy of abortion.
ajk:

The basis of my mRNA Conscientious Objection is based upon my Catholic Faith of being Pro-Life and anti-abortion murder of infants inside and even outside their mothers wombs and
Catholic Church Doctrine on abortion.

The mRNA shot used human STEM cells in its development by testing it first on a aborted human STEM line.
This human STEM cell line originally extracted live baby STEM cells from a baby first before murdering the baby through abortion.
These babies were in the hundreds if not thousands before this technique was "perfected".

The babies then either had their spinal cords cut, their brains sucked out through their noses, heads smashed in or throats cut to stop them from crying before murdering them.
I cannot in good moral conscientious take this derived from evil and thus morally tainted mRNA shot.

The entire Catholic Church hierarchy from PF down to the USCCB which Byzantine Bishops are members of fully support taking this morally tainted according to Catholic Church Doctrine covid-19 shot.

They will not even give support to Faithful Catholic's who are following True Catholic Church Doctrine.
The present Catholic Church hierarchy has betrayed Jesus Christ like judas for their "30 pieces of silver" aka continued government funding.
The present Catholic Church hierarchy have betrayed WE THE FAITHFUL ALSO!

WE THE FAITHFUL must not also betray Jesus Christ and the Catholic Church that He shed His Blood for on Calvary!

SLAVA ISUSU CHRISTU!
jvt,

Slava na v'iki!

Your problem as you write here is with the "entire Catholic Church hierarchy from PF down to the USCCB which Byzantine Bishops are members " because they " fully support taking this morally tainted according to Catholic Church Doctrine covid-19 shot." Setting yourself up as the true interpreter of Catholic Church doctrine on morality against that "entire Catholic Church hierarchy" de-legitimizes the very basis of your appeal to a bishop in the first place, to his authority as the bishop, in support of your position. Here, you are more driven to correct Church policy and teaching, that you consider to be wrong, than to use the policy and teaching, as stated by the Church, as the basis for your appeal based on an "mRNA Conscientious Objection." You are outraged that you cannot present your case based on the authority of your bishop and the Church, whose authority you then question and denounce when it does not fully endorse your viewpoint.

Deacon Anthony
Originally Posted by Edward H (Irish_Ruthenian)
I feel for you, AJK. Just like me, you are trying do the right thing, the Catholic thing, the moral thing, and you are having your knees cut out from under you by the very people who should be supporting you. It is a sad time in which we live.
It is a sad time, indeed, as were many times in the past. Just to clarify, it is jvt for whom you feel, as do I, and for you also, but for other reasons.

ajk=Deacon Anthony
"Setting yourself up as the true interpreter of Catholic Church doctrine on morality against that "entire Catholic Church hierarchy" de-legitimizes the very basis of your appeal to a bishop in the first place, to his authority as the bishop, in support of your position."

Are you kidding me?
I have read Catholic Church Doctrine on abortion.
It doesn't take a theologian to interpet.
Abortion=Murder= the 6th Commandment of God = thou shalt not murder.

Anything that is related to abortion in any way, including being pro choice like CINO politicians ,
or any vaccines that have used aborted STEM cells
IN ANY WAY IS AGAINST CATHOLIC CHURCH DOCTRINE ON ABORTION!

PF and the USCCB have massaged True Catholic Church Doctrine on abortion
to comply with their government paymasters!
And Byzantine Catholic Bishops go right along with them for the same reasons.
MONEY.
Administrator’s Note: I removed a post that made unsubstantiated accusations against a bishop and warned the poster.

A reminder that accusations do not belong on this forum. Posters who desire to make accusations against anyone in orders should do so directly to the competent authorities in the Church, providing irrefutable evidence and with witnesses.
The Moderna and Pfizer vaccines were created without aborted stem cells. After creation they were (regrettably) tested on cell lines from abortions just as many medicines you have probably already used have. By condemning the Pope and bishops and placing your judgement over theirs you are putting yourself in a dangerous place spiritually. You suffer from prelest and need to repent of it.
"You suffer from prelest and need to repent of it."

Are you saying that a Catholic who believes in True Catholic Church Doctrine on abortion
is "spiritually deluded" ?
This sounds like one of PF's recent comments to the media!

Why does PF and the USCCB still support the most anti Catholic and PRO ABORTION political candidates in American history and
still allow CINO polititions who continually vote for pro "choice" legislation to still publicly Recieve the Eucharist, despite
that being against True Catholic Church Doctrine?

And you are calling me SPIRITUALLY DELUDED because I believe in and FOLLOW TRUE CATHOLIC CHURCH DOCTRINE!

CATHOLIC CHURCH DOGMAS AND DOCTRINES ARE MY FAITH!
JVF: Father Deacon Lance correctly summarized Catholic Teaching on this issue. The Moderna and Pfizer vaccines were created without aborted stem cells, and thus are acceptable. Yes, it is regrettable that they were tested using cell lines coming from abortions, but long-standing Catholic theology allows prudential judgement when the intent is to preserve human life.

Quote
Letter from the Colorado Bishops on the Vaccines

We have been asked several questions by the Faithful about relevant Catholic teaching applicable to this issue. The Catholic Church teaches that a person may refuse a medical intervention, including a vaccination, if his or her conscience leads them to that decision. Here are relevant points for this personal decision:

- Vaccination is not morally obligatory and so must be voluntary.
- There is a moral duty to refuse the use of medical products, including certain vaccines, that are created using human cells lines derived from abortion; however, it is permissible to use such vaccines only under case-specific conditions—if there are no other alternatives available and the intent is to preserve life.
- A person’s assessment of whether the benefits of a medical intervention outweigh the undesirable side-effects are to be respected unless they contradict authoritative Catholic moral teachings.
- A person is morally required to obey his or her conscience.
- For more information on these weighty ethical issues, the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) has issued a statement that can be read here: Answers to Key Ethical Questions About COVID-19 Vaccines (PDF)

Taken as a whole, these points mean a Catholic may judge it right or wrong to receive certain vaccines for a variety of reasons, and there is no Church law or rule that obligates a Catholic to receive a vaccine—including COVID-19 vaccines.

Catholic theology recognizes and respects your personal assessment that medical intervention to preserve human life does NOT outweigh the undesirable side-effects (that the vaccines were tested with cell lines from abortions). It is appropriate that you also respect Catholic theology and acknowledge it.
Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance
The Moderna and Pfizer vaccines were created without aborted stem cells. After creation they were (regrettably) tested on cell lines from abortions just as many medicines you have probably already used have. By condemning the Pope and bishops and placing your judgement over theirs you are putting yourself in a dangerous place spiritually. You suffer from prelest and need to repent of it.
Oh, come now, popes have been condemned in the past by all sorts of people and for all sorts of things, and so there is nothing new about that. Historically the papacy has not been free from heresy. That said, when it comes to an individual's healthcare decisions, so long as they conform with the moral norm, the pope is quite irrelevant. For example: he has no special insight into or knowledge about my medical history. In fact, the most that Church officials can say about the issue in question is that there is nothing that prevents a Catholic from taking a particular vaccine if he wishes to do so, but they have no power to override a person's individual conscience when it comes to making healthcare decisions about whether or not to take a particular vaccine or undergo a specific type of surgery, etc., because that is a matter of personal choice. To be blunt, I will never go to my parish priest or my local bishop and ask for their opinion about the medications that I take or other medical issues, etc., because such things are beyond their competence.
My statement had nothing to do with jvf’s healthcare choices but his condemnation of the Pope, the Bishops, and presumably everyone vaccinated for coming to the conclusion that to do so is morally permissible. So yes placing his own warped judgement over that of the Church does put him in spiritual danger.
You know, if the German people, especially the Church, had resisted Adoph Hitler in his early days instead of being thrilled with every word he said, there may not have been a WWII. When you cooperate with evil, you give it power to do its evil work. After all the lies have been exposed regarding this so-called "vaccine," and the Covid virus, anyone cooperating with this in any way is giving power to those who want to completely control us in every aspect of our lives. We already saw their opinion of the Church when they ordered the churches closed, the Sacraments banned, and arrested those who resisted this tyranny.

We will wake up one day to an underground church meeting in fear of being arrested because we went along with this garbage instead of resisting it with all our might.
Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance
My statement had nothing to do with jvf’s healthcare choices but his condemnation of the Pope, the Bishops, and presumably everyone vaccinated for coming to the conclusion that to do so is morally permissible. So yes placing his own warped judgement over that of the Church does put him in spiritual danger.
There is nothing "warped" in his viewpoint. Sure I might not express it the way he does, but it is perfectly acceptable for a person to take a more stringent position in avoiding anything to do with abortion. And there is nothing wrong with being critical of the pope or any other Church official, and in fact Catholics would have benefited from that when it comes to the sexual scandals that have destroyed the image of the Church in various Western countries. Finally, no one is bound by the prudential judgments of the pope on moral - or any other - issues, and nor is one required to agree with those judgments or show reverence for them, because the pope can be completely in error on matters of the prudential order. That said, I think your overreacting to this simply because it is a hot button issue. Each person is free to take or not take a vaccine.
Originally Posted by Apotheoun
Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance
My statement had nothing to do with jvf’s healthcare choices but his condemnation of the Pope, the Bishops, and presumably everyone vaccinated for coming to the conclusion that to do so is morally permissible. So yes placing his own warped judgement over that of the Church does put him in spiritual danger.
There is nothing "warped" in his viewpoint. Sure I might not express it the way he does, but it is perfectly acceptable for a person to take a more stringent position in avoiding anything to do with abortion. And there is nothing wrong with being critical of the pope or any other Church official, and in fact Catholics would have benefited from that when it comes to the sexual scandals that have destroyed the image of the Church in various Western countries. Finally, no one is bound by the prudential judgments of the pope on moral - or any other - issues, and nor is one required to agree with those judgments or show reverence for them, because the pope can be completely in error on matters of the prudential order. That said, I think your overreacting to this simply because it is a hot button issue. Each person is free to take or not take a vaccine.

Once again, I said nothing about his refusing to take the vaccine. He is of course free to do so. He is not free to proclaim he is right on this moral teaching and the Church is wrong. That is exactly what pro-abortion Catholic politicians like Pelosi do. He is also not free to demand the Church provide him a letter of exemption. If he feels so strongly about this he should be happy to lose his job to make his point.

from Lumen Gentium:

‘Bishops, teaching in communion with the Roman Pontiff, are to be respected by all as witnesses to divine and Catholic truth. In matters of faith and morals, the bishops speak in the name of Christ and the faithful are to accept their teaching and adhere to it with a religious assent. This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will. His mind and will in the matter may be known either from the character of the documents, from his frequent repetition of the same doctrine, or from his manner of speaking.”
Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance
Originally Posted by Apotheoun
Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance
My statement had nothing to do with jvf’s healthcare choices but his condemnation of the Pope, the Bishops, and presumably everyone vaccinated for coming to the conclusion that to do so is morally permissible. So yes placing his own warped judgement over that of the Church does put him in spiritual danger.
There is nothing "warped" in his viewpoint. Sure I might not express it the way he does, but it is perfectly acceptable for a person to take a more stringent position in avoiding anything to do with abortion. And there is nothing wrong with being critical of the pope or any other Church official, and in fact Catholics would have benefited from that when it comes to the sexual scandals that have destroyed the image of the Church in various Western countries. Finally, no one is bound by the prudential judgments of the pope on moral - or any other - issues, and nor is one required to agree with those judgments or show reverence for them, because the pope can be completely in error on matters of the prudential order. That said, I think your overreacting to this simply because it is a hot button issue. Each person is free to take or not take a vaccine.

Once again, I said nothing about his refusing to take the vaccine. He is of course free to do so. He is not free to proclaim he is right on this moral teaching and the Church is wrong. That is exactly what pro-abortion Catholic politicians like Pelosi do. He is also not free to demand the Church provide him a letter of exemption. If he feels so strongly about this he should be happy to lose his job to make his point.

from Lumen Gentium:

‘Bishops, teaching in communion with the Roman Pontiff, are to be respected by all as witnesses to divine and Catholic truth. In matters of faith and morals, the bishops speak in the name of Christ and the faithful are to accept their teaching and adhere to it with a religious assent. This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will. His mind and will in the matter may be known either from the character of the documents, from his frequent repetition of the same doctrine, or from his manner of speaking.”
Sorry, he is free to do just what you say he is not free to do, because he is not encouraging evil in rejecting elements of the argument put forward by the pope and the USCCB when they say that one may take a vaccine that involves remote material cooperation in a moral evil because that remote evil is outweighed by the duty to protect the common good.

In fact, the argument put forward by various Church officials (including the pope) is predicated on the idea that one is protecting the common good by taking one of the experimental vaccines, and that that particular action - i.e., taking a vaccine - protects the common good and that action is proportional to the duty to avoid cooperating materially and remotely in the evil of abortion, but that very point itself is open to debate. Now the fact that it is open to debate is why one remains completely free to disagree with Church officials, because it is not a truth of divine revelation or the natural law that the COVID-19 virus is dangerous enough to warrant material and remote cooperation in moral evil. Moreover, one can also disagree with Church authorities as it regards the safety of the mRNA and adenovirus vaccines. When one takes the issue of safety into account it is clear that no one can ever be required to do something that he believes in conscience will lead to his own physical harm, even if it is held to somehow protect the common good, nor does he have to accept the arguments of Church authorities when the questions surrounding the virus and the vaccines remain debatable. The bodily integrity of an innocent person cannot be violated by any earthly authority (not even that of the Church), and so one may ignore, and even openly disagree with, the prudential judgments of Church authorities in the present situation.

So, can one disagree with the pope or other Church officials as to whether or not the vaccines constitute a proportional good that mitigates against the material remote cooperation in the evil of abortion? Yes, and one can even speak out against Church authorities who promote such a notion, because those same authorities are not infallible in their prudential judgments.
Originally Posted by Apotheoun
Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance
Originally Posted by Apotheoun
Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance
My statement had nothing to do with jvf’s healthcare choices but his condemnation of the Pope, the Bishops, and presumably everyone vaccinated for coming to the conclusion that to do so is morally permissible. So yes placing his own warped judgement over that of the Church does put him in spiritual danger.
There is nothing "warped" in his viewpoint. Sure I might not express it the way he does, but it is perfectly acceptable for a person to take a more stringent position in avoiding anything to do with abortion. And there is nothing wrong with being critical of the pope or any other Church official, and in fact Catholics would have benefited from that when it comes to the sexual scandals that have destroyed the image of the Church in various Western countries. Finally, no one is bound by the prudential judgments of the pope on moral - or any other - issues, and nor is one required to agree with those judgments or show reverence for them, because the pope can be completely in error on matters of the prudential order. That said, I think your overreacting to this simply because it is a hot button issue. Each person is free to take or not take a vaccine.

Once again, I said nothing about his refusing to take the vaccine. He is of course free to do so. He is not free to proclaim he is right on this moral teaching and the Church is wrong. That is exactly what pro-abortion Catholic politicians like Pelosi do. He is also not free to demand the Church provide him a letter of exemption. If he feels so strongly about this he should be happy to lose his job to make his point.

from Lumen Gentium:

‘Bishops, teaching in communion with the Roman Pontiff, are to be respected by all as witnesses to divine and Catholic truth. In matters of faith and morals, the bishops speak in the name of Christ and the faithful are to accept their teaching and adhere to it with a religious assent. This religious submission of mind and will must be shown in a special way to the authentic magisterium of the Roman Pontiff, even when he is not speaking ex cathedra; that is, it must be shown in such a way that his supreme magisterium is acknowledged with reverence, the judgments made by him are sincerely adhered to, according to his manifest mind and will. His mind and will in the matter may be known either from the character of the documents, from his frequent repetition of the same doctrine, or from his manner of speaking.”
Sorry, he is free to do just what you say he is not free to do, because he is not encouraging evil in rejecting elements of the argument put forward by the pope and the USCCB when they say that one may take a vaccine that involves remote material cooperation in a moral evil because that remote evil is outweighed by the duty to protect the common good.

In fact, the argument put forward by various Church officials (including the pope) is predicated on the idea that one is protecting the common good by taking one of the experimental vaccines, and that that particular action - i.e., taking a vaccine - protects the common good and that action is proportional to the duty to avoid cooperating materially and remotely in the evil of abortion, but that very point itself is open to debate. Now the fact that it is open to debate is why one remains completely free to disagree with Church officials, because it is not a truth of divine revelation or the natural law that the COVID-19 virus is dangerous enough to warrant material and remote cooperation in moral evil. Moreover, one can also disagree with Church authorities as it regards the safety of the mRNA and adenovirus vaccines. When one takes the issue of safety into account it is clear that no one can ever be required to do something that he believes in conscience will lead to his own physical harm, even if it is held to somehow protect the common good, nor does he have to accept the arguments of Church authorities when the questions surrounding the virus and the vaccines remain debatable. The bodily integrity of an innocent person cannot be violated by any earthly authority (not even that of the Church), and so one may ignore, and even openly disagree with, the prudential judgments of Church authorities in the present situation.

So, can one disagree with the pope or other Church officials as to whether or not the vaccines constitute a proportional good that mitigates against the material remote cooperation in the evil of abortion? Yes, and one can even speak out against Church authorities who promote such a notion, because those same authorities are not infallible in their prudential judgments.

No
"In fact, the argument put forward by various Church officials (including the pope) is predicated on the idea that one is protecting the common good by taking one of the experimental vaccines, and that that particular action - i.e., taking a vaccine - protects the common good and that action is proportional to the duty to avoid cooperating materially "

STEM cells are taken from a still live baby inside its mothers womb, than the baby is murdered by any means the abortionist uses like
crushing the baby's skull, sliting its throat, severing its spinal cord or perhaps sucking the baby's brains out through its nose,
all done humanly off course.

WHO IS PROTECTING THE COMMON GOOD OF THESE BABIES INSIDE THEIR MOTHERS WOMBS WAITING TO BE MURDERED THROUGH ABORTION?, PF? , the USCCB?
the CINO politicians that continually support pro "choice" abortion murder?

If the Catholic Church does not support its own Catholic Church Doctrine on abortion, particularly in the mRNA shot testing on an aborted STEM cell line and does not
believe that "THE END DOES NOT JUSTIFY THE MEANS" they are saying that Catholic Church Doctrine is FALSE!

We the Faithful must do what we have to do if present Catholic Church hierarchy betrays the Catholic Church by supporting the most anti-Catholic and pro abortion presidential administration in history!

We must KEEP AND SUPPORT THE FAITH, if our "shepherds" won't!
Next we will not be allowed inside a Catholic Church without a covid "passport".
What is happening now is what Venerable ABP Fulton J Sheen prophesied in 1947 when he spoke about a future "ape" catholic Church crisis.
The future "ape" catholic Church he said will try to change Catholic Church Doctrine to suit their own false paradigm's
Read the prophesy.
It fits what's happening right in the Catholic Church to a "T".
SLAVA ISUSU CHRISTU!
" He is not free to proclaim he is right on this moral teaching and the Church is wrong. "

I have read Catholic Church Doctrine on abortion, I know what the teaching is, I'm as right as Catholic Church Doctrine is on abortion.
THE ENDS DO NOT JUSTIFY THE MEANS OF THE USE OF ABORTED STEM CELLS EVEN IN THE TESTING OF THE mRNA COVID-19 SHOT!

PF and the USCCB have massaged Catholic Church Doctrine to suit the party of deaths political agenda on abortion that they are a part of
by their full support of the present democratic administration.
" He is not free to proclaim he is right on this moral teaching and the Church is wrong. "

I have read Catholic Church Doctrine on abortion, I know what the teaching is, I'm as right as Catholic Church Doctrine is on abortion.
THE ENDS DO NOT JUSTIFY THE MEANS OF THE USE OF ABORTED STEM CELLS EVEN IN THE TESTING OF THE mRNA COVID-19 SHOT!

PF and the USCCB have massaged Catholic Church Doctrine to suit the party of deaths political agenda on abortion that they are a part of
by their full support of the present democratic administration.
Originally Posted by Apotheoun
So, can one disagree with the pope or other Church officials as to whether or not the vaccines constitute a proportional good that mitigates against the material remote cooperation in the evil of abortion? Yes, and one can even speak out against Church authorities who promote such a notion, because those same authorities are not infallible in their prudential judgments.

Then why bother appealing to the bishop in the first place? The crux of the thread and jvt's issue, as he states it, presuming he accurately characterizes Bishop Kurt, is

Originally Posted by jvf
Bishop Kurt ordered his Priests not to issue any Conscientious Objection support statements to anyone, just like the Latin Rite Bishops like dolan and caggiano of CT already have.
I was told this by a Byzantine Catholic Priest in the Eparchy of Passaic after I asked him to add a statement of support to my Conscientious Objection statement based on
refusing to take the covid-19 shot that was mandated by my employer.
I told my employeer that I am pro life and basing my refusal on Catholic Church Doctrine on abortion ...

Is the refusal by the priest/Bishop to issue the requested "support statements" wrong? Is jvt's "refusal on Catholic Church Doctrine on abortion" correct since that is Catholic Church Doctrine? Who has it right about "Catholic Church Doctrine" as applied in this case? What is incorrect or objectionable in the CDF's guideline as given in Note on the morality of using some anti-Covid-19 vaccines?

Is it that
Originally Posted by jvf
PF and the USCCB have massaged Catholic Church Doctrine to suit the party of deaths political agenda on abortion that they are a part of
by their full support of the present democratic administration.
?
There are so many things being said in this thread that need to be kept distinct and/or nuanced, in my opinion.

(1) jvf’s description of the testing of the mRNA vaccines quickly glosses over details about the actual state of affairs in ways that could be misleading. For example, jvf says,

Quote
the mRNA shot was tested on aborted STEM cells taken while the baby was alive tand hen murdered by abortion

This at least suggests (and perhaps outright says) that these vaccines were tested on cells taken from a live baby who was then aborted. But that is incorrect in at least two ways:

- The vaccines were tested on cells from cell line HEK 293, which were grown in a laboratory. These cells do descend from cells that were taken from a baby in 1973, but they were not themselves cells taken from a baby.
- The cells that started cell line HEK 293 were not taken "while the baby was alive," but from the baby's remains.

Furthermore, it is apparently not entirely certain whether the original cells that started HEK 293 came from a baby that was actually aborted, or instead came from a miscarriage. It seems likely that the cells came from an abortion, but it isn't known for sure. The source who originally traced the line (Dr. Franklin Graham) says that he does not really know. (See the sources cited in the Wikipedia article on HEK 293 for more on this.)

I do not say that the above facts make a large moral difference (though I think they may); I am saying only that jvf is being fast and loose with the facts, at the risk of sensationalizing.

(2) I also fear that jvf's posts at least risk committing the sin of calumny. For example, he or she says,

Quote
PF and the USCCB have massaged True Catholic Church Doctrine on abortion
to comply with their government paymasters!
And Byzantine Catholic Bishops go right along with them for the same reasons.
MONEY.

This is a grave claim. At the very least, it is one that ought to require substantial support, which has not been given here. So, as it is right now, I think it is probably right to push back against these claims about our bishops and their brother bishops, and to caution jvf.

(3) jvf equates his or her position with "True Catholic Doctrine" without basis. He or she writes, for example, that the vaccine is "morally tainted according to Catholic Church Doctrine." That is either not correct, or at least unsupported so far. It is one thing to say that a Catholic may conscientiously object to the vaccine because he or she believes, in good conscience, that (for example) the good of vaccination against COVID-19 is not proportional to whatever evil(s) may be involved in using a product that was tested against a cell line descended from cells likely procured from an aborted child. (Apparently Tylenol and numerous other things also suffer from that same flaw, I'll note.) It is quite another to claim that endorsement of the vaccines is against Catholic teaching. The bishops, incidentally, seem to agree with the former, but not the latter.
Vatican City just gave 3 Swiss Guards their walking papers for refusing to be vaccinated.

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/swiss-guards-refused-vaccination-return-switzerland-80380588
"I also fear that jvf's posts at least risk committing the sin of calumny."

The American Catholic Church aka USCCB (Byzantine Catholic Rite included) has already recieved 1.4 billion dollars + in covid-19 "stimulation" money along with the 1 billion + dollars that it receives every year continually. CHECK THIS OUT YOURSELF.

"The vaccines were tested on cells from cell line HEK 293, which were grown in a laboratory. These cells do descend from cells that were taken from a baby in 1973, but they were not themselves cells taken from a baby.
- The cells that started cell line HEK 293 were not taken "while the baby was alive," but from the baby's remains."

WRONG!
These STEM cells were taken from NOT JUST ONE BABY, BUT HUNDREDS BECAUSE THIS TESTING PROCEDURE TOOK MANY TRIES BEFORE IT SUCCEEDED.
MANY TRIES = MANY ABORTIONS = MANY DEAD BABIES

According to Catholic Church Moral Doctrine:
THE ENDS DO NOT JUSTIFY THE MEANS

BY THE WAY MY SON IS ONE OF THE HEADS OF CLINICAL TRIALS AT A MAJOR PHARMICUTICAL, THATS WHO I GET MY INFORMATION FROM.

SLAVA ISUSU CHRISTU
Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance
Vatican City just gave 3 Swiss Guards their walking papers for refusing to be vaccinated.

https://abcnews.go.com/Health/wireStory/swiss-guards-refused-vaccination-return-switzerland-80380588

From the link:
Quote
VATICAN CITY -- Three Vatican Swiss Guards who have refused to be vaccinated against COVID-19 upon Holy See orders have voluntarily left the storied corps to return to Switzerland, a Swiss Guard official said Sunday.

Lt. Urs Breitenmoser told The Associated Press that all Swiss Guards had been asked to be vaccinated “to protect their health and that of the others they come into contact with as part of their service.”


"Three members of the Guard have chosen not to adhere to that request, voluntarily leaving the corps,'' Breitenmoser said in a statement.
I read that as resign or be discharged.
Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance
I read that as resign or be discharged.

With 15,000 deaths from the "vaccine," you ought to be reading that as tyranny!!!

No one should be forced to act against his health or his conscience, especially when there is no emergency.
Originally Posted by Edward H (Irish_Ruthenian)
Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance
I read that as resign or be discharged.

With 15,000 deaths from the "vaccine," you ought to be reading that as tyranny!!!

No one should be forced to act against his health or his conscience, especially when there is no emergency.

So .0018%. And you said the Covid death rate of 2% was no big deal.
Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance
Originally Posted by Edward H (Irish_Ruthenian)
Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance
I read that as resign or be discharged.

With 15,000 deaths from the "vaccine," you ought to be reading that as tyranny!!!

No one should be forced to act against his health or his conscience, especially when there is no emergency.

So .0018%. And you said the Covid death rate of 2% was no big deal.

No, I said that you don't shut down an entire nation for a death rate of 2%. Stop putting words in my mouth. I am appalled -- I mean absolutely appalled -- at your calvalier attitude towards this tyranny. The so-called "vaccine" is turning out to be poison. Just ask Jessica Wilson's husband. She, a good Catholic, 37, in excellent health, died three days after getting the jab that she was FORCED TO GET because her bishop wouldn't stand up against the tyranny of the Governor of Washington. Our bishops should have called for mass disobedience after the lies started being exposed and we should have had the courage to do so.

And the 15,000 is just the tip of the iceburg. Over 800,000 serious adverse reactions, including over 20,000 PERMANENT DISABILITIES from the jab. A new study has shown that those who are taking the jab are actually more likely to get variants of Covid because the jab is not only effective only against the original virus, but weakens the immune system. We haven't heard the last of this by a long shot. Watch the death rate start to climb astronomically in the coming years as the spike protein wrecks people's immune systems and they die from the shot they were told that would save them. Then our lying, corrupt, evil government will turn around and claim that the deaths are from a "new variant" and we need yet another booster to protect ourselves.

But the point remains -- it isn't even about the percentages. If I don't want the shot, just like Jessica Wilson, who objected to it, I should not be forced to take it. Especially since it doesn't keep you from getting the virus in the first place, it is untested, and we are seeing that it is creating health havoc with those who have gotten it. It's about freedom of conscience.
Originally Posted by Edward H (Irish_Ruthenian)
And the 15,000 is just the tip of the iceburg. Over 800,000 serious adverse reactions, including over 20,000 PERMANENT DISABILITIES from the jab. A new study has shown that those who are taking the jab are actually more likely to get variants of Covid because the jab is not only effective only against the original virus, but weakens the immune system.

Could you share the sources for these claims, please?
Originally Posted by Ecce Jason
Originally Posted by Edward H (Irish_Ruthenian)
And the 15,000 is just the tip of the iceburg. Over 800,000 serious adverse reactions, including over 20,000 PERMANENT DISABILITIES from the jab. A new study has shown that those who are taking the jab are actually more likely to get variants of Covid because the jab is not only effective only against the original virus, but weakens the immune system.

Could you share the sources for these claims, please?

It is from the VAERS (Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting Site) of the CDC.

In addtion, here are a few more reporting sources:

https://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2021/10/05/covid-vaccine-injuries.aspx

https://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/30000-women-uk-report-menstrual-problems-after-covid-shots-menstrual-issues-not-l?utm_campaign=Daily%20Newsletter%3A%2030%2C000%2B%20Women%20in%20UK%20Report%20Menstrual%20Problems%20After%20COVID%20Shots%2C%20But%20Menstrual%20Issues%20Not%20Listed%20as%20Side%20Effect%20%28YvVEiS%29&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Daily%20Newsletter&_kx=0Ubt0CiSr_XP8z_eDwiJALaaNK1wSXD8UiV_JZqvL24%3D.K2vXAy

https://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/signs-covid-injection-failure-mount?utm_campaign=Daily%20Newsletter%3A%20Signs%20of%20COVID%20Injection%20Failure%20Mount%20%28UFnqtY%29&utm_medium=email&utm_source=Daily%20Newsletter&_kx=0Ubt0CiSr_XP8z_eDwiJALaaNK1wSXD8UiV_JZqvL24%3D.K2vXAy

I probably have over 100 of these reports. The information is out there for anyone who wants to know the truth. The real question is this: when you have even the inventor of the MnRa test making statements against it, when peer-reviewed doctors are standing against the "vaccine," when nurses are quitting rather than take "the jab," when viriologists, epidemeologists, and other experts are all blowing the trumpet of warning, and when our media is caught lying through their teeth about Ivermectin, which is a cure,

WHY

would you want to close your eyes to these things and be argumentative as certain people on this board have been?

My health is more important than your desire to remain in darkness.
Here's an earlier report on VAERS from July of this year:

https://www.theburningplatform.com/...surpass-400000-following-covid-vaccines/

Along with this article written by a Catholic man.

https://www.markmallett.com/blog/open-letter-to-the-catholic-bishops/
Originally Posted by Edward H (Irish_Ruthenian)
My health is more important than your desire to remain in darkness.
My goodness. As far as I can tell, this is directed to me, but I have no idea why. I have no such desire; I merely asked for your sources (and now thank you for them). If this was not directed toward me, please forgive me for misinterpreting. But if it was, I would ask you to reflect on why you are attributing such desires to me merely in response to my asking you a question. We need not bite at each other like this.

As for what you provided, again, thank you for the sources. Unfortunately, they do not appear trustworthy. I know Dr. Mercola to be unreliable, based on his behavior even well before COVID (there is much information about him available on his Wikipedia page, here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Mercola). The same goes for the curator of greenmedinfo.com, who has no scientific training whatsoever (a bachelor's degree in philosophy), and a record of twisting or withholding information to suit his narratives (some information here: https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/p...terature-his-bachelors-degree-philosophy). I was hoping for better.

VAERS, on the other hand, is a decent source of some information. But you cannot simply look at VAERS and take all of the reports at face value. Many of them are self-reports. I could go to VAERS and enter a self-report right now (though it would be false and therefore would be illegal, so I will not). Similarly, you have to take into account various other factors, such as the expected baseline frequency of reports in the circumstances, the ages and other bits of background information about the reporters, the role of the placebo effect (e.g., priming oneself with the expectation that something bad will happen, then experiencing what was expected), and so on. There are people who are trained to do such analyses, but I am not one of them (I suspect you aren't either, though that could be wrong; forgive me, if so). Most of the sources that I'm aware of who do seem qualified to do such analyses seem not to think it is nearly as bad as you seem to think it is, though I don't say that to convince you (I suspect it will not).

In any case, thank you again for the sources.
Originally Posted by Edward H (Irish_Ruthenian)
Along with this article written by a Catholic man.

https://www.markmallett.com/blog/open-letter-to-the-catholic-bishops/

Wow. A letter from a Catholic singer and song writer.

Refutations of two of his false statements

1. He states asymptomatic infection was made up in 2020. False

https://www.insider.com/what-does-asymptomatic-mean

2. He states mRNA can change your DNA. False.

https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210719/covid-19-vaccines-not-gene-therapy#:~:text=The%20mRNA%20chains%20from%20the,vaccines%2C%20not%20gene%20therapy
Right now the present Catholic Church is the "ape" catholic Church prophesied in 1947 by Venerable ABP Fulton J Sheen about
a future crisis in the Catholic Church where there will arise an "ape" (fake) pope with an "ape" catholic Church hierarchy that
will try and change true Catholic Church Doctrines to suit their false beliefs.
"ape" PF is now the "pope" of the present "ape" catholic Church.

Right now Venerable ABP Fulton J Sheen's 1947 prophesy has been fulfilled to a "T".
READ IT.
Originally Posted by jvf
Right now the present Catholic Church is the "ape" catholic Church prophesied in 1947 by Venerable ABP Fulton J Sheen about
a future crisis in the Catholic Church where there will arise an "ape" (fake) pope with an "ape" catholic Church hierarchy that
will try and change true Catholic Church Doctrines to suit their false beliefs.
"ape" PF is now the "pope" of the present "ape" catholic Church.

Right now Venerable ABP Fulton J Sheen's 1947 prophesy has been fulfilled to a "T".
READ IT.

That's absurd and repulsive. And I find your rigid morality repulsive also as Christ, Our Lord found that same rigid morality of the Pharisees repulsive. Pro Pudor! You disgrace the memory of the good Archbishop whose live TV broadcasts I grew up with every week.
T
Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance
Originally Posted by Edward H (Irish_Ruthenian)
Along with this article written by a Catholic man.

https://www.markmallett.com/blog/open-letter-to-the-catholic-bishops/

Wow. A letter from a Catholic singer and song writer.

Refutations of two of his false statements

1. He states asymptomatic infection was made up in 2020. False

https://www.insider.com/what-does-asymptomatic-mean

2. He states mRNA can change your DNA. False.

https://www.webmd.com/lung/news/20210719/covid-19-vaccines-not-gene-therapy#:~:text=The%20mRNA%20chains%20from%20the,vaccines%2C%20not%20gene%20therapy

This is so typical of the deniers. Attack the messenger instead of paying attention to the message. FYI he gives numerous quotes from various sources. This is not his own thinking, this is called "research."
Originally Posted by Ecce Jason
Originally Posted by Edward H (Irish_Ruthenian)
My health is more important than your desire to remain in darkness.
My goodness. As far as I can tell, this is directed to me, but I have no idea why. I have no such desire; I merely asked for your sources (and now thank you for them). If this was not directed toward me, please forgive me for misinterpreting. But if it was, I would ask you to reflect on why you are attributing such desires to me merely in response to my asking you a question. We need not bite at each other like this.

As for what you provided, again, thank you for the sources. Unfortunately, they do not appear trustworthy. I know Dr. Mercola to be unreliable, based on his behavior even well before COVID (there is much information about him available on his Wikipedia page, here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Mercola). The same goes for the curator of greenmedinfo.com, who has no scientific training whatsoever (a bachelor's degree in philosophy), and a record of twisting or withholding information to suit his narratives (some information here: https://www.mcgill.ca/oss/article/p...terature-his-bachelors-degree-philosophy). I was hoping for better.

VAERS, on the other hand, is a decent source of some information. But you cannot simply look at VAERS and take all of the reports at face value. Many of them are self-reports. I could go to VAERS and enter a self-report right now (though it would be false and therefore would be illegal, so I will not). Similarly, you have to take into account various other factors, such as the expected baseline frequency of reports in the circumstances, the ages and other bits of background information about the reporters, the role of the placebo effect (e.g., priming oneself with the expectation that something bad will happen, then experiencing what was expected), and so on. There are people who are trained to do such analyses, but I am not one of them (I suspect you aren't either, though that could be wrong; forgive me, if so). Most of the sources that I'm aware of who do seem qualified to do such analyses seem not to think it is nearly as bad as you seem to think it is, though I don't say that to convince you (I suspect it will not).

In any case, thank you again for the sources.

My apologies. This was not directed at you. The "you" is anyone who is insisting that I get the jab before I can participate in society. This includes my bishop, my clients (I will drop them like a hot potato!), and restaurants, stores, etc. When I said "you," it was the generic. No offense or attitude towards you was intended and I apologize for any offense taken by what I said.

The problem I have with any government source is the numerous lies they have been caught in. At this point in my life, if someone from any government source tells me that the sky is blue, I am going to go out and check it myself.
Originally Posted by Edward H (Irish_Ruthenian)
“This is so typical of the deniers. Attack the messenger instead of paying attention to the message. FYI he gives numerous quotes from various sources. This is not his own thinking, this is called "research."

Showing someone as not qualified to be talking on a given subject is not an attack. He makes several provably false statements. I simply pulled two. He also quotes conspiracy theory kooks.

On the other hand, every doctor and nurse in my family and among my friends urges people to vaccinated and confirm that almost every Covid case in their crowded ICUs are unvaccinated.

Take your conspiracy theory nonsense elsewhere.
"That's absurd and repulsive. And I find your rigid morality repulsive also as Christ, Our Lord found that same rigid morality of the Pharisees repulsive."

Have you read Venerable ABP Fulton J Sheens 1947 prophesy?
I did.

"You disgrace the memory of the good Archbishop whose live TV broadcasts I grew up with every week."
I also watched him every week.
But I think you watched "Uncle Milty" instead.
Originally Posted by Edward H (Irish_Ruthenian)
My apologies. This was not directed at you. The "you" is anyone who is insisting that I get the jab before I can participate in society. This includes my bishop, my clients (I will drop them like a hot potato!), and restaurants, stores, etc. When I said "you," it was the generic. No offense or attitude towards you was intended and I apologize for any offense taken by what I said.
Thank you for this. I suppose no apology is actually needed, since I misinterpreted! Forgive me.
Originally Posted by jvf
Have you read Venerable ABP Fulton J Sheens 1947 prophesy?
I did.
I'm curious about this. Is this the thing you have in mind? https://www.virgosacrata.com/antichrist-signs-of-our-times.html

Generally, I think the things said there are prophetic, but I can't see that it ultimately supports a claim like this:

Originally Posted by jvf
Right now the present Catholic Church is the "ape" catholic Church prophesied in 1947 by Venerable ABP Fulton J Sheen about
a future crisis in the Catholic Church where there will arise an "ape" (fake) pope with an "ape" catholic Church hierarchy that
will try and change true Catholic Church Doctrines to suit their false beliefs.
For example, in the above speech, Archbishop Sheen seems to say that the one who will lead the "ape" Church will "induce faith in astrology so as to make not the will but the stars responsible for our sins" and will "explain guilt away psychologically as repressed sex." I don't think anything like that has happened. Do you? You say that the "prophesy" "has been fulfilled to a 'T'."
The present Catholic Church is crisis, Cardinals against Cardinals, Bishops against Bishops, Priests against Priests,
About what you may ask?
About this pope changing True Catholic Church Doctrines to suit his socialist ,marxist and globalist views.

The present "ape" catholic Church hierarchy is in Schism with True Catholic Church Hierarchy who believe in True Catholic Doctrines.
Remember this?

Pope Francis attended an act of idolatrous worship of the pagan goddess Pachamama. He allowed this worship to take place in the Vatican Gardens, thus desecrating the vicinity of the graves of the martyrs and of the church of the Apostle Peter. He participated in this act of idolatrous worship by blessing a wooden image of Pachamama. the idol of Pachamama was placed in front of the main altar at St. Peter’s and then carried in procession to the Synod Hall.

I believe that what Ven ABP Fulton J Sheen said that "Church will induce Faith in Astrology" is saying "not a Christian belief."
In 1947 that's the closest thing that he could think of as a false Faith.

Venerable ABP Fulton J Sheen is a True Saint of the Catholic Church and was also a Holy seer who predicted other worldly events, like the death of communist leader stalin in 1954.

The NYAD of cdl dolan fought the removal of Ven ABP Sheens body from St Patricks to his hometown of Peoria Illinois where Ven ABP Sheens Canonization Process was started
for years . His Canonization process was started in the his hometown Peoria, Illinois Diocese. In order for the Canonization process to continue Ven ABP Sheens body had
to be brought back to the place of origin of the Canonization process.
cdl dolan of the NYAD fought this for years.
Ven ABP Sheens Niece brought a lawsuit against the NYAD and won, to the anger of dolan and the NYAD.
Ven ABP Sheens body was brought back to Peoria Ill and the Canonization process was continued.
THAN IT WAS STOPPED by dolan and the NYAD, along with cdl cupich, tobin-nj, gregory, wuerl et al.
WHY?
dolan said that Venerable ABP Fulton's Canonization process had to be HALTED because the New York Attorney General has an investigation going on about Bishops who
covered up sexual abuse going back to the 1960's.
Venerable ABP Fulton J Sheen was sent to the Rochester NY Diocese to be Bishop from 1964 - 1970.
dolan said that Venerable ABP Fulton J Sheen had to be "investigated" first before Canonization could be continued.

Read up about the cdl spellman dispute with Venerable ABP Fulton J Sheen in the 1960's, and what led to his "transfer"
to Rochester NY.
This is a eye opener.

SLAVA ISUSU CHRISTU
Originally Posted by jvf
The present Catholic Church is crisis, Cardinals against Cardinals, Bishops against Bishops, Priests against Priests,
About what you may ask?
About this pope changing True Catholic Church Doctrines to suit his socialist ,marxist and globalist views.

The present "ape" catholic Church hierarchy is in Schism with True Catholic Church Hierarchy who believe in True Catholic Doctrines.

I find the venomous attacks you make against the present Bishop of Rome and living Catholic bishops absolutely scandalous and unworthy of this forum. Moreover, they deny the very True Catholic Doctrines you purport to uphold. Who's the "APE"?
Quote
The present Catholic Church is crisis, Cardinals against Cardinals, Bishops against Bishops, Priests against Priests,
About what you may ask?
About this pope changing True Catholic Church Doctrines to suit his socialist ,marxist and globalist views.

The present "ape" catholic Church hierarchy is in Schism with True Catholic Church Hierarchy who believe in True Catholic Doctrines.

Christ is in our midst!!

jvf,

We don't make such vicious attacks against the Catholic Church, the Orthodox Church, or any of the other Christians communities whose members share this forum. I am inviting you to go to Town Hall and read the thread entitled "Who We Are." The attacks and uncharitable posts you have made in this thread don't represent who we are as a group of Christians who have gathered here to learn from each other and support each other.

It might be well that you examine your conscience and decide if you belong here, especially in light of the posts you have made here recently. You are far from comments that pertain tothe original topic of this thread.

Bob
Moderator
"We don't make such vicious attacks against the Catholic Church,"

There are Catholic Cardinals, Bishops, Priests and Theologians who believe the same as I do.

Read the 1947 prophesy of Venerable ABP Fulton J Sheen who was a holy seer and also
read Jesus (there will come a time prophesies) and the Fatima, Akita, LaSalette and Quito prophesies of Theotokos.

It doesn't take a Theologian to see that what is happening now in the present Catholic Church
is a "perfect storm" of prophesies.

MOST HOLY MOTHER OF GOD SAVE OUR CHURCH THAT GOD MADE YOU THE QUEEN OF!
PRAY THE ROSARY,DAILY-ALWAYS!

SLAVA ISUSU CHRISTU
Read the 1947 prophesy of Venerable ABP Fulton J Sheen about a future "ape" pope and "ape" catholic Church.
The future is NOW!
Originally Posted by jvf
Read the 1947 prophesy of Venerable ABP Fulton J Sheen about a future "ape" pope and "ape" catholic Church.
The future is NOW!

I don't need to read or hear this "prophesy" to know that your interpretation of it is ridiculous and absurd. Having grown up in my youth with Bishop Sheen's live broadcasts from New York City I am sure he did not have in mind the valid and legitimately elected Bishop of Rome and the bishops in union with him throughout the world. Yes, we watched "Uncle Milty" too - so what? Enough said.

To revert to the thread at hand, it should be noted that not only His Holiness, Pope Francis, is urging the faithful get fully vaccinated against Covid 19, but the Greek Orthodox Archbishop of America, His Eminence Elpidophoros supported by his Primate, the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople is forbidding priests of the Greek Archdiocese from granting papers of exemption to those refusing to get the vaccine. I believe His Beatitude, Patriarch Kirill of Moscow has issued a similar message. I think there is an element of universality (call it Catholic) to all this. These are NOT "APE" churches!
"To revert to the thread at hand, it should be noted that not only His Holiness, Pope Francis, is urging the faithful get fully vaccinated against Covid 19, but the Greek Orthodox Archbishop of America, His Eminence Elpidophoros supported by his Primate, the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople is forbidding priests of the Greek Archdiocese from granting papers of exemption to those refusing to get the vaccine. I believe His Beatitude, Patriarch Kirill of Moscow has issued a similar message. I think there is an element of universality (call it Catholic) to all this. These are NOT "APE" churches!"


The mRNA covid-19 shot was tested on an aborted STEM cell line during its process development.
The mRNA shot is Morally Tainted according to Catholic Church Doctrine on abortion.
"the ends do not justify the means".

Catholic Bishops of all Catholic Rites have ordered their Priests not to give any supporting Conscientious Objection documentation
to a Catholic refusing his employers "mandate" to take the shot or else be "voluntarily resigned" aka fired.
Why?
BECAUSE THE POPE SAYS IT'S OK to take the morally abortion tainted mRNA "shot".
THIS POPE IS NOT FOLLOWING CATHOLIC CHURCH DOCTRINE ON ABORTION
AMONG OTHER CATHOLIC CHURCH DOCTRINE ISSUES that he is trying to change.

If you are a Catholic It's NOT OK according to Catholic Church Doctrine to take the covid-19 mRNA "shot".

READ THIS, Unless you are afraid to.
https://www.virgosacrata.com/antichrist-signs-of-our-times.html
Fr Deacon, with all due respect, who gives a hoot what Rome says or does? We are not Roman Catholics. We do not kneel at the table of Rome, begging for scraps. Why some of our Bishops hurry to heed Rome's every whim and fancy is the very reason the Orthodox rightfully suspect us as being false or cheap imitators of Orthodoxy.
jvf you said "MOST HOLY MOTHER OF GOD SAVE OUR CHURCH THAT GOD MADE YOU THE QUEEN OF!
PRAY THE ROSARY,DAILY-ALWAYS!"

I disagree. We have our own spiritual traditions and devotions that are older and more venerable than the Roman Church's. We have no need whatsoever for a marian rosary whose very method of prayer runs contrary to the typical understanding of prayer as taught by the Eastern Fathers. The marian rosary is a latinization and no Byzantine Catholic should take part in it.

It's not "wrong" to pray a marian rosary, of course. But to make it sound mandatory or necessary is just plain wrong. I doubt the Romans would take kindly to me telling them: PRAY THE JESUS PRAYER WITHOUT CEASING TO STRIVE TO ATTAIN PERFECT UNITY WITH JESUS CHRIST. There would be nothing wrong with Roman Catholics adopting the Jesus prayer and praying as the Eastern Fathers teach. But it would be contrary to their own authentic faith tradition. I think if we are to be Eastern Catholics, we need to let go of everything Western Catholic (and vice versa). Let us respect our varied traditions by being faithful in our adherence to them.
"I disagree. We have our own spiritual traditions and devotions that are older and more venerable than the Roman Church's. We have no need whatsoever for a marian rosary whose very method of prayer runs contrary to the typical understanding of prayer as taught by the Eastern Fathers. The marian rosary is a latinization and no Byzantine Catholic should take part in it."

ARE YOU KIDDING ME?
ARE YOU EVEN CATHOLIC?

PRAY THE ROSARY, DAILY-ALWAYS!
I DO.

I AM A CATHOLIC of the Byzantine Rite of the UNIVERSAL CATHOLIC CHURCH who Receives the Real Presence Eucharist
in any CATHOLIC CHURCH RITE THAT I WANT TO AND PRAY ANY PRAYER TO THEOTOKOS THAT I WANT TO OF ANY OF THE 27 RITES OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH!
THEOTOKOS IS QUEEN OF ALL 27 RITES OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.
That's where the money is.
Originally Posted by jvf
"I disagree. We have our own spiritual traditions and devotions that are older and more venerable than the Roman Church's. We have no need whatsoever for a marian rosary whose very method of prayer runs contrary to the typical understanding of prayer as taught by the Eastern Fathers. The marian rosary is a latinization and no Byzantine Catholic should take part in it."

ARE YOU KIDDING ME?
ARE YOU EVEN CATHOLIC?

PRAY THE ROSARY, DAILY-ALWAYS!
I DO.

I AM A CATHOLIC of the Byzantine Rite of the UNIVERSAL CATHOLIC CHURCH who Receives the Real Presence Eucharist
in any CATHOLIC CHURCH RITE THAT I WANT TO AND PRAY ANY PRAYER TO THEOTOKOS THAT I WANT TO OF ANY OF THE 27 RITES OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH!
THEOTOKOS IS QUEEN OF ALL 27 RITES OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

Greetings jvf!

Just a couple of things, really. First of all, there's no need to shout at us. There are ways to show emphasis without shouting.

Secondly, of course you may pray any prayer you like to the Theotokos. No one is saying that you may not. But we, as Eastern Catholics do have our own traditions and prayers, as has been mentioned, and they are part of being an Eastern Catholic. If you want to pray the Latin rosary, by all means go ahead--it is a beautiful devotion, but involves the use of the imagination which, in the East, tends to be discouraged during prayer, or at least certain types of prayer. (And yes, I'm fully aware of "rosary of St. Seraphim of Sarov", also very beautiful.) But, please...don't shout at the rest of us that we must/should do the same when we are not inclined to do so.

God bless!
Christ is in our midst!!

I believe that this thread has strayed far from its original title. It has also become a thing dripping with the venom of demonic hatred. While we can disagree about many things, our forum rules about civility, based on Christ's command "to love one another" are being damaged.

For that reason, I am locking this thread to further posts.

Bob Moderator
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