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EC veneration of certain Orthodox saints

Posted By: Orthodox Catholic

EC veneration of certain Orthodox saints - 11/14/03 02:42 PM

Dear Friends,

When trying to translate an Akathist to the Icon of Our Lady of Zhirovits, an Orthodox Akathist, I came across some, well, not too favourable comments about Catholics . . .

What to do with something like that? Is it all right to "work out" those few words? Should one just leave the Akathist alone then?

Also, what about Orthodox saints that were against union with Catholicism?

Can such be in EC calendars?

I noticed that our dear Melkite friends had St Jonah of Moscow in their wonderful 1958 prayerbook calendar.

And St Jonah opposed strenuously Met. Isidore of Kyiv over the Council of Florence.

What say you, O Wise Ones of the East?

Alex
Posted By: OrthoMan

Re: EC veneration of certain Orthodox saints - 11/14/03 03:00 PM

[Also, what about Orthodox saints that were against union with Catholicism?

Can such be in EC calendars?]

Alex, my friend, didn't you say that my most favorite saint, St Job of Pochaev is on your church calendar?

OrthoMan
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic

Re: EC veneration of certain Orthodox saints - 11/14/03 03:11 PM

Dear Orthoman,

He is in some, but not all. Many EC's I know, myself included, venerate him - and he was certainly widely venerated by Greek and Roman Catholics in the the 18th and 19th centuries.

There was even a process for St Job's Catholic canonization by Rome introduced there at the urging of the Greek-Catholic Count Nicholas Pototsky - who gave oodles of money to the Pochaiv Lavra and who has always been fondly remembered by the Orthodox. (This is written up in Ukrainian in the book by the Ukr. Orth. Met. Ilarion Ohienko "The Holy Lavra of Pochaiv").

Alex
Posted By: Dmitri Rostovski

Re: EC veneration of certain Orthodox saints - 11/14/03 03:50 PM

Slava Isusu Kristu,

I would say leave the statements as they are. My own namesake was very against the Union, yet I still believe he intercedes for me in Heaven.
I also feel we as EC should not try and whitewash the past and the feelings our union with Rome caused our Orthodox brothers. It is as much a part of who we are as anything else. For instance, St. Peter the Aleut teaches us the price we pay for a weak identity and lack of education as I see it.

Dmitri
Posted By: OrthoMan

Re: EC veneration of certain Orthodox saints - 11/14/03 03:58 PM

[For instance, St. Peter the Aleut teaches us the price we pay for a weak identity and lack of education as I see it.]

Mind explaining exactly what you mean by that Dimitri? St Pete the Aleut knewexactly who and what he was and died rather than turn his back on it. I just presented a large Icon to our parish of St peter the Aleut!

OrthoMan
Posted By: Dmitri Rostovski

Re: EC veneration of certain Orthodox saints - 11/14/03 04:10 PM

Slava Isusu Kristu,

I was refering to those who killed him. Perhaps the good Fathers would not have treated him the way they did had they known BCs and our close ties with Orthodoxy. His death is inexcusable and was a terrible act of ignorance.

Dmitri
Posted By: Arturo

Re: EC veneration of certain Orthodox saints - 11/14/03 10:36 PM

Glory to Jesus Christ!

When I asked my spiritual father about veneration of "anti-Catholic" Orthodox saints, he told me, "saints often fight amongst themselves." I have often found that the most holy people are often the most intolerant. This is not because they are uncharitable, but rather because they have a holy fear of distorting the Faith that was passed on to them. This is a virtue many of us cannot understand, because our Faith is weak. We find intolerance as un-Christian, period. But we really should revere it, even if we do not understand it. Thus, I revere the intolerance of a St. John Maximovitch, just as I revere the intolerance of Archbishop Marcel Lefebvre. Both were saintly men, but in life they would have been at each other's throats. Fortuneately, it says nowhere in the Gospels that we have to get our ecclesiology totally straight before we enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Hopefully, they are both blissfully smiling down at us, realizing the error of their ways, but still thankful that they were firm against the agnosticism of modern life.

Arturo
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic

Re: EC veneration of certain Orthodox saints - 11/14/03 10:46 PM

Dear Arturo,

Actually, what you said is quite brilliant!

A good weekend to you!

Alex
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic

Re: EC veneration of certain Orthodox saints - 11/14/03 10:48 PM

Dear Dmitri,

Your point of view really grabs me - I think it is quite the breakthrough.

Good weekend to you as well!

Alex
Posted By: Joe Prokopchak

Re: EC veneration of certain Orthodox saints - 11/14/03 11:50 PM

Quote
Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:

What say you, O Wise Ones of the East?

Alex
Alex,

There are no schisms in heaven.

Joe Prokopchak
archsinner
Posted By: Chtec

Re: EC veneration of certain Orthodox saints - 11/15/03 04:32 AM

Was it Cyril of Alexandria who said something to the effect of "If Chrysostom is in heaven, Judas is numbered with the apostles"?

Many church fathers used to fight.

And now they're all before the Throne of God where they HAVE to get along. wink

Dave
Posted By: ebed melech

Re: EC veneration of certain Orthodox saints - 11/17/03 02:04 AM

I was deeply moved by reading the story of St. Peter the Aleut. Clearly he is a martyr worthy of veneration by both Orthodox and Catholics, as much as say St. Joan of Arc, who was also killed by members of the Church hierarchy (in England) for political reasons.

Both St. Peter and St. Joan bring into strong relief issues surrounding imperial/secular control of the Church - issues with which both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches have struggled since the time of Constantine. (The horrors of the Spanish Inquisition and the Orthodox complicity in the active suppression and martyrdom of thousands of confessing Greek Catholics in the Ukraine come to mind...)

As a Byzantine Catholic, I have no qualms about venerating this holy Aleut, especially since one could say that he never rejected Catholicism per se. In truth, his murderers never really offered the Catholic faith to him, only their absurd version of Spanish imperial and colonial fanaticism - with Catholic dressing. mad

On Monday I will be ordering an icon of this great and holy Christian martyr. St. Peter the Aleut and Martyr of the Americas, pray for the unity of all Christians! cool

Gordo, sfo
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic

Re: EC veneration of certain Orthodox saints - 11/17/03 02:35 PM

Dear Friends,

I agree - and I too have an icon of St Peter the Aleut!

But I'm also speaking here of church services to saints that we already share in common (e.g. the Icon of Our Lady of Zhirovits) where there are some "hard thrusts" at the Catholic "heretics" and the "New Hagarenes" or the Uniates (Service to Our Lady of Pochaiv).

Can these be legitimately changed for use in Greek-Catholic Churches?

Also, the Akathist to St Vladimir the Great has two versions.

The Orthodox version depicts him choosing Eastern Orthodoxy and rejecting Western Catholic "heresy."

The Russian Catholic version simply depicts him as choosing Constantinople's Rite because of its beauty.

While we may venerate any Orthodox saint privately, we may not do so liturgically - if the saint had a history of being against Rome.

When Met. Andrew Sheptytsky applied to Rome to allow for the liturgical veneration of the all the Saints in the Russian Orthodox calendar, the decision came down in 1904 - and a number of Russian saints (e.g. St Athanasius of Brest) were dropped from the calendar because of their strong opposition to the Union etc.

Alex
Posted By: Fr Mark

Re: EC veneration of certain Orthodox saints - 11/18/03 12:17 PM

Dearest brother in Christ, Alex - the All-Merciful Lord bless you.

Your question is an excellent one, and very pertinent to others within the Byzantine Christian Tradition.

The edinovertsy - Old Rite Orthodox united to the Moscow patriarchate - have to face this very question with regard to the saints of the Patriarchal Church, who were hostile to, or fervently opposed to the Ancient Piety and its adherents.

A dichotomy arises.

One the one hand one preserves one's rite and calendar, but belonging to a Church celebrating saints who were against one's whole spiritual Tradition.

Of course, the saints as human beings were conditioned by their surroundings and were not immune to historico-social prejudices. We need only look at comments regarding Jews, women, the heterdox or foreigners, with their satanic vegetables, beverages and musical instruments.

An old emigre friend constantly bemoans the labelling of the 'heterodox' as immoral or wicked in pre-revolutionary Russian religious literature, pointing out that many of the non-Orthodox Christians she knows are more devout and spiritual than many of the 'Orthodox' she has encountered in the Russian diaspora.

I often think, at least the saints can see this now that they are free from prejudice and social, historical and ethnic conditioning.

Spasi Khristos -
Mark, monk and sinner.
Posted By: Tammy

Re: EC veneration of certain Orthodox saints - 11/18/03 04:22 PM

Alex,

My husband insists that Orthodox saints cannot be venerated (even privately) by Catholics of any rite, if they were anti-Catholic. He says that unless the Pope has canonized them, Rome does not recognize them as saints and we shouldn't either.

Tammy
Posted By: Fr Mark

Re: EC veneration of certain Orthodox saints - 11/18/03 04:46 PM

So is the root of sainthood the grace of the Holy Spirit or the seal of the pope?

Spasi Khristos -
Mark, monk and sinner.
Posted By: KO63AP

Re: EC veneration of certain Orthodox saints - 11/18/03 05:27 PM

Sainthood comes from a much higher source than either the Pope or the Holy Spirit - the Roman Curia! biggrin
Posted By: Scotus

Re: EC veneration of certain Orthodox saints - 11/18/03 05:37 PM

Quote
He says that unless the Pope has canonized them, Rome does not recognize them as saints and we shouldn't either.
Tammy, I would propose that your husband has a less than complete understanding of canonization.

Canonization, while a definitive sign of heavenly presence, carries with it much more.

A Canonized Saint, in addition to dying in a State of Grace, also exibited a life of 'heroic virtue'.

A Catholic might venerate any who now reside at the foot of the Throne. This, by definintion, would include those who have not been canonizted.

A case would be an infant who died shortly after baptism. The infant's family may rightly seek the heavenly intercession of their lost child as a private devotion. The child is truely a Saint, just not canonized. The child's short life would probably not provide much a lesson to the faithful, but the child is still a Saint.

The life of an Orthodox, who , while holy, might have been 'less than charitable' to his Catholic brothers may not provide what some would consider a valuable life lesson, but that a private devotion to one in heaven is ALWAYS permissable.

Besides, you can always tell your husband "Well, he's Catholic now" wink

-Brendan
Posted By: Tammy

Re: EC veneration of certain Orthodox saints - 11/18/03 07:25 PM

I didn't say I agree with him! biggrin
Posted By: lpreima

Re: EC veneration of certain Orthodox saints - 11/18/03 07:31 PM

You're not supposed to. You're his wife.
Lauro
Posted By: Tammy

Re: EC veneration of certain Orthodox saints - 11/18/03 08:55 PM

Well said!
Posted By: griego catolico

Re: EC veneration of certain Orthodox saints - 11/18/03 09:43 PM

When it comes to EC veneration of Orthodox saints, I am very curious about the following:

What about the case of Alexis Toth?
Why is he regarded and venerated as a saint by some Byzantine Catholics?

Recently, an icon of Alexis Toth was added to the icons in my parish church, to the disagreement of several parishioners. A question often asked is, "Why is there an icon of Alexis Toth and not of Saint Josaphat or the other Eastern Catholic saints?"

Saints are seen as those who lived lives of heroic virtue, and are canonized as role models for us to follow. How is Alexis Toth seen as a role model for some Byzantine Catholics? Was he not canonized for having "returned" to Orthodoxy?
We, as Catholics, believe that the fullness of the Christian faith is found only in the Catholic Church. How can some Byzantine Catholics venerate an Orthodox saint who left the fullness of the Christian faith?

There is a difference when it comes to venerating Orthodox saints who have always been Orthodox and those who were former Catholics.

Yes, Fr. Toth should have been treated better by the Roman Catholic clergy, but that still does not-in my book-warrant leaving Catholicism. There are other saints who were not treated that well by the Church- such as St. Pio- but they did not leave the Church.

Of those who do regard Alexis Toth as a saint, I will greatly appreciate your input. May Our Lord bless you.
Posted By: Fr Mark

Re: EC veneration of certain Orthodox saints - 11/19/03 08:14 AM

"We, as Catholics, believe that the fullness of the Christian faith is found only in the Catholic Church."

We, as Orthodox , believe that the fullness of the Christian faith is found only in the Catholic Church.

Catholic Church - what's the Catholic Church?

... depends where you're standing!

Spasi Khristos -
Mark, monk and sinner.
Posted By: Dmitri Rostovski

Re: EC veneration of certain Orthodox saints - 11/19/03 01:52 PM

Amin, Batushka,

I firmly believe that if St. Alexis lived today, he would not have chosen the path he did. He should be venerated by us as a model of dedication to his Tradition. By re-claiming our Orthopraxis, we are basically doing the same thing he did just not with the jurisdictional change.

Dmitri
Posted By: Fr. Deacon Lance

Re: EC veneration of certain Orthodox saints - 11/19/03 02:56 PM

Griego,

The Catholic Church recognizes the Orthodox Churches as true particular Churches, so they have the right to glorify those they feel worthy as saints. In the event of reunion are we to expect them to remove from the calendar all those post-schism saints they glorified because Rome did not canonize them? I don't see that we have any choice but to recognize the saints glorified by the Orthodox. Of course, until reunion some will remain controversial and official services won't be possible.

Also remember St. Alexis was refused faculties by the Archbishop Ireland and the other Latin bishops so he did not have much of a choice but to leave. Without his schism who knows if Rome would have been motivated to erect a jurisdiction for us? I believe his leaving the Catholic Church was ultimately necessary for the survival of our Church. To honor St. Alexis is to honor someone who refused to compromise our traditions or allow our Church to be assimilated into the majority. The Catholic Church has vindicated his position if not his actual leaving.

In Christ,
Fr. Deacon Lance
Posted By: eumir

Re: EC veneration of certain Orthodox saints - 11/20/03 01:41 PM

Slava Isusu Chrystu!

well said arturo! what an inspiration to hear such words of unity among Christians, hear on earth and those who are with God.

from what i got at the EWTN Forum more about 2 years ago is like what arturo said, that saint of both communion be venerated by both of the faithful because we all have one source to return to and all of the saint are now with His company.

since then i ventured out to learn the Saints of the Orthodox/Greek-catholic churches and was greatly inspired by the examples of St. Alexis by his courage to take lead and be a real shepherd to his flock.

A0nd together with the orthodox here, we share St. Nicolas of Myra with his upcoming feast.

Glory to Him forever!
eumir
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