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Posted By: Tomassus Liturgical dance, Byzantine Catholic style - 07/31/13 12:29 PM
[Liturgical dance, Byzantine Catholic style:] The Redemption of Bathsheba before the beautiful gates

Byzantine, Texas
July 23, 2013
http://byztex.blogspot.com/2013/07/the-redemption-of-bathsheba-before.html

The Redemption of Bathsheba - "A collection of dances that evoke the spirits of the Bible's most intriguing women." - Saint John Chrysostom Byzantine Catholic Church, Pittsburgh, PA. Even if done outside the Liturgy, is this appropriate inside a sanctuary?

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

More pictures at the parish website at http://www.sjcbcc.com/bathsheba2012.html
Originally Posted by Tomassus

More pictures at the parish website at http://www.sjcbcc.com/bathsheba2012.html

And on their Facebook

eek . shocked . cry
Posted By: DMD Re: Liturgical dance, Byzantine Catholic style - 08/06/13 04:40 PM
Sigh. I don't know how things work in the BCC. Could the pastor decide this on his own or would he need a blessing from Metropolitan William? I imagine the parish old timers at Rus'ka Dolina were not amused. I could see a choral concert of religious themed music, even a Warhol retrospective in the vestibule if properly catalogued and curated, but this? No way.
Oh no, the Ruthenians have gone mad!
It's beyond me just how this could even be considered normal tradition in a sanctuary. I see another gray hair in my gray patch blooming.
Originally Posted by DMD
Sigh. I don't know how things work in the BCC. Could the pastor decide this on his own or would he need a blessing from Metropolitan William? I imagine the parish old timers at Rus'ka Dolina were not amused. I could see a choral concert of religious themed music, even a Warhol retrospective in the vestibule if properly catalogued and curated, but this? No way.


How to mortify other Eastern Catholics, and set ecumenism back a century. As an Eastern Catholic of another ritual Church it embarrasses me to see this. I've been tempted to write their bishop myself.

I can say, sadly, these women have more fabric on their bodies, granted it's sheer, than do a lot of the young women at the Holy Virgin Cathedral (ROCOR) where the detail of covering one's head seems to be enough to justify dresses skin tight, pronounced cleavage, and often well above the knee. The Greek Orthodox Cathedral isn't much different. I don't expect them to dress like the stereotype yiayia or babushka, but...

As far as "The Redemption of Bathsheba", the catechesis has been literally misplaced.

Someone else can look up the actual instructions, but I know in the Latin Church if a lecture or concert etc is being presented in the church the Blessed Sacrament is to be removed from the tabernacle and reposed elsewhere. I have certainly witnessed this many times, including the Lessons and Carols in the Dominican Priory chapel last Advent. I have also seen it not happen...

I have no idea about any special provisions in the East. We did have a Roman Catholic priest give a lecture recently in our chapel, and our priests have also lectured in there. We don't yet have a real iconostasis so no Royal Doors. The curtain was closed across the area of the Royal Doors.
Posted By: DMD Re: Liturgical dance, Byzantine Catholic style - 08/06/13 07:22 PM
Surely there are seismic anomalies near St John Chrysostom parish cemetery from the wild spinning in the graves of the departed builders and benefactors of the parish. "Boze moj'" as my Baba undoubtedly would have said.
Slava Isusu Khrystu!

Liturgical Dance has no place in a Byzantine Church! Especially in the sanctuary! The Church is a place for reverence and decorum NOT DANCING!!!!!!!!!!!!! Dancing is for night clubs!
This is the strangest thing I have seen in any BCC parish. As a member of the Byzantine Catholic Church I feel that this is sad. It almost looks like they used the grave where the shroud is placed on Good Friday as a prop in the background. I am so saddened that such a historic church which played a very important role in the history of The Rusyn Greek Catholic Churches is being used for such purposes. I don't know how many members still belong to St John Chrysostom these days, but it seems as if the church is already being used as a museum rather than a temple of the living God. Very Sad indeed.
Posted By: DMD Re: Liturgical dance, Byzantine Catholic style - 08/06/13 09:21 PM
It is sad, my grandfather briefly attended there before World War one and moving to New Jersey. He was angry about much that happened in the Ruthenian Greek Catholic world of his times, however, this would have saddened him greatly.

What was the pastor thinking?

This surely would have broken the heart of the venerable sage and historian of our Rusyn forefathers, the late Michael Roman, of that parish if memory serves me right, who chronicled our people's struggles for over fifty years through the pages of the GCU Messenger.
Posted By: Jaya Re: Liturgical dance, Byzantine Catholic style - 08/06/13 09:28 PM
Originally Posted by likethethief
How to mortify other Eastern Catholics, and set ecumenism back a century. As an Eastern Catholic of another ritual Church it embarrasses me to see this.

As a member of the BCC, I'm not only mortified and embarrassed, I am horrified. What were they thinking? I know we have our problems, but this? It's really disheartening.
And I don't know the configuration of this church, but unless there is a Eucharistic Liturgy going on or the reading of the Gospel at that point in a non-Eucharistic Liturgy, the Royal Doors should not be open!
Want to see some videos of it?
https://www.facebook.com/SJCBCC
Well, the only "good" thing I can say is that the dancers have great legs and look terrific in those see-through skirts!

But how sacrilegious to do this before the Holy of Holies.

Alex
Originally Posted by Fr. Ron Hatton
And I don't know the configuration of this church, but unless there is a Eucharistic Liturgy going on or the reading of the Gospel at that point in a non-Eucharistic Liturgy, the Royal Doors should not be open!


In looking at the photos it appears the Royal Doors are closed. The Doors seem to be very minimal.
Originally Posted by Fr. Ron Hatton
Want to see some videos of it?
https://www.facebook.com/SJCBCC


Father, thank you for making a comment on one of those videos on their Facebook. I have "liked" your quote.

I would never go looking to criticize a parish, but given the way the parish seems to be promoting this, they really are open to honest responses. It is telling that there seem to be no "likes" on the pictures and videos.

Disgraceful !
The Royal Doors in that Church are very low and they are the double fold type that is somewhat common in Rusyn Churches. There are a number of churches in ACROD that have those type of doors.
Myopic, superficial western culture rubbing off on the Byzantine Catholics. This makes my heart ache, and does not give me any hope for remaining part of the Catholic Church even through the medium of the Eastern Churches in Communion with Rome.

I pray that good people will stand up and demand answers of the clergy and the parish leaders. Are these sorts of events going to occur in other Eastern Catholic Churches? If so, I hope I am out the door- I am tired of polluted westernisms.
I hope all Orthodox see this video and tremble in fear at the thought of re-joining the **present** Western half of the Church. These sorts of antics await them and their parishes.

I hope Byzantine Christians wil stand up and denounce this. What happened to the spirit of Vatican II in regards to restoring genuine Eastern Catholic traditions and practices?
Considering it is now becoming normal practice in the Roman Church for liturgical dancing to take place during masses, I guess we should be grateful this did not take place during liturgy proper. It's a slippery slope though... Could you imagine something like this occurring during let's say the great incensation or one of the entrances. Roman Catholics seem to have totally lost a sense of the sacred. I say this after attending Sunday mass at a RC parish while on vacation this weekend at an undisclosed location along the Jersey Shore. At the unnamed church I attended... They no longer refer to the church as a sanctuary but rather a "worship space". I can only hope and pray that these "new age" " feel good" about yourself liturgical practices do not make inroads into the Eastern Catholic Churches. I also hope that Metropolitan William and all the Bishops of the BCC have the courage to stand up and discipline any priest who allows such abuses to take place within God' Holy Temple.
Originally Posted by Lemko80
Considering it is now becoming normal practice in the Roman Church for liturgical dancing to take place during masses, I guess we should be grateful this did not take place during liturgy proper. .


I myself have never seen liturgical dancing in the Roman Church. Ironically, I have only seen this 'Latin liturgical dancing' in the online posts that declare its pervasiveness.
As detestable as this is, if I ultimately had to choose, I'd rather be in Communion with these dancing fairies and lunatic puppeteers in the Latin Church, over some of these things, no matter how Liturgically proper the latter is exacted:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hml2EHzCCBs

Thank God it isn't an either/or choice.
I do not see how a Church service for a dictator (living or dead) can be anything but good. I do not mind at all that Obama, a man that I find detestable because of his views on moral issues, is prayed for in both Orthodox and Catholic Churches.
Originally Posted by eastwardlean?
Originally Posted by Lemko80
Considering it is now becoming normal practice in the Roman Church for liturgical dancing to take place during masses, I guess we should be grateful this did not take place during liturgy proper. .


I myself have never seen liturgical dancing in the Roman Church. Ironically, I have only seen this 'Latin liturgical dancing' in the online posts that declare its pervasiveness.

Come to Northern California and you can see it all you want. You can also see Charismatic masses and all sorts of other things. Heck they even had a Mariachi Mass at the Oakland Cathedral.
Originally Posted by Apotheoun
I do not see how a Church service for a dictator (living or dead) can be anything but good. I do not mind at all that Obama, a man that I find detestable because of his views on moral issues, is prayed for in both Orthodox and Catholic Churches.

Priests of the Moscow Patriarchate served a panikhida (memorial service) in Pyongyang for North Korean dictator Kim Jong-il, who died on December 17, 2011, ITAR-TASS reports. Kim Jong-il was never baptized.

Two Korean priests, Frs. Theodore and John, who studied at the Moscow Theological Academy, conducted the memorial service. Present were Valery Sukhinin, Russian Ambassador to North Korea, with Russian colleagues, and Kung Sok-Ung, deputy foreign minister in charge of Russian affairs.


As far as I know, the Russians have for the most part, been as strict as it gets when it comes to the following, why the exception, especially for one such as this:
A pannykhida is a prayer service offered by a priest for the repose of the soul of an Orthodox Christian who has departed this life. Customarily a pannykhida is served on the third, ninth, and fortieth day after the repose of the Orthodox Christian, and every year on the anniversary of the repose. The pannykhida is essentially the same as memorial services offered in Orthodox Churches outside the Russian tradition, known variously as the parastas, pannychis, or in abbreviated form as the “Trisagion for the Dead.” Only departed Orthodox Christians may be commemorated at a pannykhida.
Originally Posted by Apotheoun
Originally Posted by eastwardlean?
Originally Posted by Lemko80
Considering it is now becoming normal practice in the Roman Church for liturgical dancing to take place during masses, I guess we should be grateful this did not take place during liturgy proper. .


I myself have never seen liturgical dancing in the Roman Church. Ironically, I have only seen this 'Latin liturgical dancing' in the online posts that declare its pervasiveness.

Come to Northern California and you can see it all you want. You can also see Charismatic masses and all sorts of other things. Heck they even had a Mariachi Mass at the Oakland Cathedral.


As a fellow Northern Californian, I must say that I have only once seen liturgical dance. It was at my niece's Catholic High School's Baccalaureate Mass last year, and it took place before the Mass, which was held in the gym. I've never seen liturgical dance in a church. There is an annual Jazz Mass at the Cathedral of the Blessed Sacrament. While I haven't been in a number of years, I don't remember it being anything egregious.
Originally Posted by babochka
Originally Posted by Apotheoun
Originally Posted by eastwardlean?
Originally Posted by Lemko80
Considering it is now becoming normal practice in the Roman Church for liturgical dancing to take place during masses, I guess we should be grateful this did not take place during liturgy proper. .


I myself have never seen liturgical dancing in the Roman Church. Ironically, I have only seen this 'Latin liturgical dancing' in the online posts that declare its pervasiveness.

Come to Northern California and you can see it all you want. You can also see Charismatic masses and all sorts of other things. Heck they even had a Mariachi Mass at the Oakland Cathedral.


As a fellow Northern Californian, I must say that I have only once seen liturgical dance. It was at my niece's Catholic High School's Baccalaureate Mass last year, and it took place before the Mass, which was held in the gym. I've never seen liturgical dance in a church. There is an annual Jazz Mass at the Cathedral of the Blessed Sacrament. While I haven't been in a number of years, I don't remember it being anything egregious.


There was definitely "liturgical dance" wink at the recent ordination and installation of the new Bishop of Oakland, before the Mass began. We have pictures of Eritrean Catholics of Ge'ez Rite of Berkeley "dancing" their entrance on our parish Facebook. My Latin parish did have dancers with incense bowls one Easter vigil about 6 years ago. Haven't had any since then. There were hula dancers at the service when we venerated the holy relics of St. Damien of Molokai in the St. Joseph's Basilica in the Oakland Diocese, and the Cathedral of St Mary San Francisco Archdiocese, tho neither of these was a Mass. That's the extent of the "becoming normal practice" I've experienced in my years in the Oakland Diocese, and San Francisco Archdiocese. cool


For Eritrean Catholics of Ge'ez Rite whose tradition has much movement in the LIturgy, would it not be easier to say " Liturgical Movement?

There is Liturgical movement and then there is dance.

I know that there are many who would argue about each term ad infinitum.

In our Slavic tradition and Greek Tradition, if you watch an older baba and yaya as they pray and as the liturgy unfolds,( they never complain about sore backs or legs etc.... you will see lots of Liturgical movement as they pray..part of the epiphanic function of the body? Then look at some of the not "older" people standing as stiff as boards who complain about sore backs and legs and say the liturgy is too long as they hang on to pews for support! ( if there were now pews and if they moved as the Liturgy is celebrated they would not even notice the time.

But I am getting off topic here and do not want to do that.

Thanks

Kolya

Kolya



All liturgy is an extended, hieratic dance. But what those young ladies did was not liturgy.
Yes
Oui
Nai
Tak
да

Thank you Stuart K


Kolya
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