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I have a poll of sorts regarding the Presanctified Liturgy--in the Greek Traditions, I have seen the celebrant places a (chalice?) veil over his head as he processes with the precious and holy Eucharist during the Great Entrance.


So I was wondering....

Do some Slavic traditions also keep this practice of the priest processing with head veiled?

Is it easy to differentiate based on countries of origin (Russian vs. Ukrainian vs. Ruthenian vs. Serbian vs. x?) etc?

Thanks,
JAD
Let me state the poll more clearly:

At a presanctified liturgy, have you seen the priest make the great entrance with the holy gifts with his head covered, or uncovered?

In either cases, please state the jurisdiction/tradition.



Thanks,
JAD
I have only attended this service a few times in the Bulgarian Orthodox Church and the last time was several years ago. As long as I remember the priest had his head covered. From what I found on the internet they do:
http://www.bg-patriarshia.bg/image.php?src=http://new.sliven.net/res/news/63891/DSC06064.JPG
http://bg-patriarshia.bg/image.php?src=http://new.sliven.net/res/news/62358/IMG_4970.JPG
http://www.bg-patriarshia.bg/image.php?src=http://new.sliven.net/res/news/43424/IMG_3278.jpg

I am not sure how it is served in the Bulgarian Byzantine Catholic Church, but it is prescribed only for Holy Wednesday on their calendar. I think they have normal liturgies during the Great Lent.
Originally Posted by j.a.deane
At a presanctified liturgy, have you seen the priest make the great entrance with the holy gifts with his head covered, or uncovered?


No, I haven't. smile All I see is the floor on which my face is prostrated.
Yeah. At the point where we sing the Now the Powers, we do kneel and prostrate at that time, so we can't really see anything like that. Although I don't think the Ruthenian tradition has veiled priests. This sounds like an Oriental Catholic tradition.
My priest covers his head...(Greek Orthodox)
Our priest covers his head. (Byzantine Catholic, Passaic Eparchy - Ruthenian)
Our priest does not cover his head. (Ruthenian)
Haven't seen neither the priest nor the deacons covering their heads (St. John the Baptist Cathedral, Eparchy of Parma, Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church). I'll have to see if Fr. James Batcha does this when I head to Holy Spirit this Friday evening (he's at his other parish (St. Nicholas Croatian Byzantine Church) on Wednesdays, which is in the downtown area).
They should most definitely cover their heads with the Aer
according to most Rubrics I've read
Originally Posted by haydukovich
They should most definitely cover their heads with the Aer
according to most Rubrics I've read
Whose/what rubrics for instance?
Originally Posted by haydukovich
They should most definitely cover their heads with the Aer
according to most Rubrics I've read


It is not prescribed in the Ruthenian Ordo.
Well ... The Serbs do it ... it seems normal ...

do you really want me to make a list?
Originally Posted by haydukovich
Well ... The Serbs do it ... it seems normal ...

do you really want me to make a list?


No. It doesn't matter who does it. It is not prescribed in the Ruthenian Ordo. If Ruthenians start doing everything everyone else does and not following their own books there will soon be no Ruthenian Recension.
Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance
Originally Posted by haydukovich
Well ... The Serbs do it ... it seems normal ...

do you really want me to make a list?


No. It doesn't matter who does it. It is not prescribed in the Ruthenian Ordo. If Ruthenians start doing everything everyone else does and not following their own books there will soon be no Ruthenian Recension.
WOW! WOW!^2 WOW!^n where n → ∞
(Yes, a bit exuberant, but the point is, well said. My context is the RDL and its woeful lack of adherence to the stated principle, among other things.)
I cover my head with the aer. The (proto)deacon preceeds me with his candle and censes as he goes. The servers preceed him with their candles. As has been noted, I don't imagine the faithful notice this because they are making a prostration to the ground (zemnoj poklon) during this procession. (Russian tradition at St. Michael's Russian Catholic Chapel in NYC) (Nec plus, nec minus, nec aliter!)
Reverend Father Deacon Lance,

I was just stating that I read in many different rubrics the calling for the Aer being placed on the head.

I am sorry if I implied the Ruthenians should do it.

But there were some other posts where it was claimed that this practice was done in a Ruthenian Church.

I should have stated that my personal preference was to do it with the Aer on the head - (Aer Head!)

The real question is where Tradition comes into play and where tradition (the local customs of a pariah) work.

I'm sure the rule is that the Bishop would over-ride local traditions - or is that true? Would a parish that has done this practice for say 70 years be asked to NOT do it?
Could they be told to stop? would they be told to stop?

I've read and seen a lot about Liturgy across actually many faiths (as a hobby in simple observation) and it seems in modern times that almost all churches especially in the 20th century converged - where an Anglican Mass is almost indistiguishable from a Latin Catholic Mass - Where the prayers are almost identical. Protestant Worship in many ways mimics or Latins Mimic protestants etc. In fact you could probably say the GOA adopting the New Calendar would be modern pressures to conform with Western timetables and secular regularity.

Not to mention the influence Rome has over Byzantine Catholics worldwide which has changed many practices in Ruthenian churchs.

I've seen Ruthenians do Rosaries and Stations of the Cross also and other Latin Catholic prayer services.

So I guess my ultimate question here is - what items are Tradition CHURCHWIDE - what items are tradition local parish customs and what role has the convergence of religious and secular influences affected the Liturgical practices of the Byzantine Catholic world - not to mention the Eastern Orthodox world as well.

Thank you also for being a source of knowledge on this Rev Father Deacon Lance - in all sincerity.

John

I think that came of harsh and that was not my intention. I was simply pointing out the Ruthenian Ordo does not prescribe cover the head with the Aer. I recognize other Ordos do prescribe it. Nor am I bothered if some of our priests cover their heads. What I object to is the idea that not covering the head is wrong or that we should change our Ordo.
Originally Posted by ajk
Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance

No. It doesn't matter who does it. It is not prescribed in the Ruthenian Ordo. If Ruthenians start doing everything everyone else does and not following their own books there will soon be no Ruthenian Recension.
WOW! WOW!^2 WOW!^n where n → ∞
(Yes, a bit exuberant, but the point is, well said. My context is the RDL and its woeful lack of adherence to the stated principle, among other things.)


Of course one would have to agree on a list of what things are unique to the Ruthenian Recension versus others and how the 1965 or 2007 Liturgicons promote or suppress those things.
Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance

Of course one would have to agree on a list of what things are unique to the Ruthenian Recension versus others and how the 1965 or 2007 Liturgicons promote or suppress those things.
Oh, perhaps I misunderstood. I had presumed that the Ruthenian Recension, as redacted by Rome at the request of the Ruthenian hierarchy, and accorded much admiration or lip-service, was the common standard. That is, one starts with the standard and only as needed makes necessary, not arbitrary, departures. In particular, unique elements of text and rubrics should be preserved or at least given preferential status.
Originally Posted by ajk
In particular, unique elements of text and rubrics should be preserved or at least given preferential status.


This is indeed what I am talking about, but in complaints about the RDL I see many that have nothing to do with this issue. For example, suppression of the Little Litany. This liturgical unit is not unique to the Ruthenian Recension. Its suppression, while problematic, has nothing to do with Ruthenian vs Greek vs Russian Recensions. In fact, it seems much, but not all, of what is unique to the Ruthenian Recension is the accretions it has not picked, for example the Third Hour Troparia at the Epiclesis.
Perhaps diak or booth should weigh in on how Ukrainian tradition is for Presanctified Gifts, since we've heard so much back and forth of the Ruthenian end of things.
Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance
Originally Posted by ajk
In particular, unique elements of text and rubrics should be preserved or at least given preferential status.


This is indeed what I am talking about, but in complaints about the RDL I see many that have nothing to do with this issue. For example, suppression of the Little Litany. This liturgical unit is not unique to the Ruthenian Recension. Its suppression, while problematic, has nothing to do with Ruthenian vs Greek vs Russian Recensions. In fact, it seems much, but not all, of what is unique to the Ruthenian Recension is the accretions it has not picked, for example the Third Hour Troparia at the Epiclesis.
Indeed, suppression of the small litanies is a departure of the RDL from what has become a common usage of the Byzantine liturgy and, as such, is "problematic." As stated in another thread:
Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance
Originally Posted by ajk

....
2. Should we, as a Church, be celebrating according to this complete form, at least occasionally, or at least that it be available and permitted in English?
...
5. Should we adhere to the text of our Recension as the standard for our liturgical expression as much as possible?


...
2. It should be permitted.
...
5. Yes.

So, add this other feature of suppression of common elements to the alteration of the unique elements of the Ruthenian Recension by the RDL, and -- the usual questions arise -- what do we have, and why the need to do so?

Originally Posted by 8IronBob
Perhaps diak or booth should weigh in on how Ukrainian tradition is for Presanctified Gifts, since we've heard so much back and forth of the Ruthenian end of things.

The Ukrainians use the Ruthenian Ordo too.
Quote
Perhaps diak or booth should weigh in on how Ukrainian tradition is for Presanctified Gifts, since we've heard so much back and forth of the Ruthenian end of things.


The practice is not mentioned in Dolnytsky's Typikon nor in the Slavonic, Ukrainian or English versions of the Ordo Celebrationis used in the UGCC.
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