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Posted By: babochka beautiful video of Ukrainian Divine Liturgy - 09/15/13 11:06 AM
I'm not sure where to put this, so please move if this isn't the right place.

My pastor just sent me this video of a Ukrainian Divine Liturgy filmed recently. The youtube description says:

The Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom was celebrated at the 2013 Napa Institute Conference by the Rt. Rev. Mitered Protopresbyter Andriy Chirovsky, Fr. David Anderson, Fr. Ted Wroblicky, and Fr. James Bankston, along with Deacon Alex Wroblicky and Deacon Sabatino Carnazzo.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzFOuz_hAbw
Beautiful. Thank you for sharing smile

Originally Posted by babochka
I'm not sure where to put this, so please move if this isn't the right place.

My pastor just sent me this video of a Ukrainian Divine Liturgy filmed recently. The youtube description says:

The Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom was celebrated at the 2013 Napa Institute Conference by the Rt. Rev. Mitered Protopresbyter Andriy Chirovsky, Fr. David Anderson, Fr. Ted Wroblicky, and Fr. James Bankston, along with Deacon Alex Wroblicky and Deacon Sabatino Carnazzo.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YzFOuz_hAbw
When did the laity start exchanging the Kiss of Peace ?
There is much to laud in that DL, but I found myself squirming at certain bits as well; NOT because of any lack on the part of the celebrants, but because there were certain idiosyncrasies in the service that made me raise my eyebrows a few times. To the Latin audience, I'm sure they wouldn't have made any difference, but to a Greek audience, they itch a bit.

For one thing, I know my own bishop would not approve of wearing the skoufia in place of a kamilavka, as if it was liturgical - as opposed to extra-liturgical - headgear.

Then, with no iconostas and no solea, there was no liturgical movement of the deacons - for example, to the side during the singing of the first antiphon. And why not sing the second antiphon?
Now now Father - how many UGCC Churches do you know where they take the 2nd Antiphon ? :P
It was very beautiful Liturgy regardless.
Originally Posted by Our Lady's slave
When did the laity start exchanging the Kiss of Peace ?


Yes, that was a bit strange, and also very noisy.
Hope you did not miss seeing the very beautiful Divine Liturgy on EWTN this past Saturday afternoon.
EWTN had Divine Liturgy of Exaltation of the Holy Cross on TV .
It was beautifully sung by the choir but I noticed that they sang the Trisagion and not the " To you Cross Oh Master..." as should have been used or can changes be made?

Kolya
Originally Posted by Pavloosh
Hope you did not miss seeing the very beautiful Divine Liturgy on EWTN this past Saturday afternoon.


Unfortunately, I did miss it. Does anybody know if it will be on again?
Posted By: DMD Re: beautiful video of Ukrainian Divine Liturgy - 09/15/13 10:44 PM
Originally Posted by babochka
Originally Posted by Our Lady's slave
When did the laity start exchanging the Kiss of Peace ?


Yes, that was a bit strange, and also very noisy.


How, I have to ask, is that consistent with the Vatican 2 directive that the Eastern churches strive to return to a more authentic tradition? Innovations like that truly rub us Orthodox the wrong way and reinforce our reflexive response which is to distrust the Vatican. I can only imagine the reaction from more traditionalist Orthodox quarters.
I share your concern DMD. I don't want to be negative, but I have enquirers asking me about the Eastern Catholic Church all the time, including what our liturgical life is like. As a 'Byzantiniser' myself, and someone who would happily self-describe as 'Orthodox-in-communion-with-Rome', I want to be able to point to resources that actually reflect that position.
As Fr. Taft says, "It's the Kiss of Peace, not "a kiss apiece".
Originally Posted by DMD
Originally Posted by babochka
Originally Posted by Our Lady's slave
When did the laity start exchanging the Kiss of Peace ?


Yes, that was a bit strange, and also very noisy.


Innovations like that truly rub us Orthodox the wrong way and reinforce our reflexive response which is to distrust the Vatican.


But, DMD, aren't there Orthodox parishes who have introduced innovations on their own initiatives? Altar girls, for example?
Posted By: Diak Re: beautiful video of Ukrainian Divine Liturgy - 09/16/13 12:22 PM
I suggest attending a celebration of one of the most ancient extant Anaphorae, that of Sts. Addai and Mari. You will find the Kiss of Peace begun with the clergy to the deacons and then passed to the subdeacons (if present) and then the congregation. It is also practiced in the Armenian Apostolic Church with the person offering the greeting inclining his head first to the right, and then to the left of the person with the greeting "Christ is revealed among us" with the response "Blessed is the revelation of Christ."

Posted By: DMD Re: beautiful video of Ukrainian Divine Liturgy - 09/16/13 12:41 PM
Originally Posted by Diak
I suggest attending a celebration of one of the most ancient extant Anaphorae, that of Sts. Addai and Mari. You will find the Kiss of Peace begun with the clergy to the deacons and then passed to the subdeacons (if present) and then the congregation. It is also practiced in the Armenian Apostolic Church with the person offering the greeting inclining his head first to the right, and then to the left of the person with the greeting "Christ is revealed among us" with the response "Blessed is the revelation of Christ."



Yes, but those are no more the traditions of our peoples - Eastern Orhodox or Eastern Catholic - than are mandatory celibacy or liturgical dance.
Posted By: Diak Re: beautiful video of Ukrainian Divine Liturgy - 09/16/13 12:48 PM
It was at one time a part of the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom (c.f. Fr. Taft) beyond just the clergy. I don't necessarily disagree with what you and Fr. James are saying, by the way, as current usage works for me but an absolutist historical approach isn't substantiated. It is also in the Antiochian Archdiocese service books with their justification of a more ancient usage of the Divine Liturgy.
Posted By: DMD Re: beautiful video of Ukrainian Divine Liturgy - 09/16/13 01:37 PM
Originally Posted by Diak
It was at one time a part of the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom (c.f. Fr. Taft) beyond just the clergy. I don't necessarily disagree with what you and Fr. James are saying, by the way, as current usage works for me but an absolutist historical approach isn't substantiated. It is also in the Antiochian Archdiocese service books with their justification of a more ancient usage of the Divine Liturgy.


I am well aware that our rubrics were not handed to St Peter Mohilya on tablets and the evolution of liturgy as we observe it today is a slow and probably ongoing process. But we live in the now and change in the Eastern tradition comes at a heavy price. As to that the Antiochians may do, I know not, but I do know what binds both Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Ukrainians, Rusyns, Lemkos to their shared traditions and patrimony (and the very same force which led many of our grandparents time to either resist Rome in America or defend her in the old world) - that is of course the preservation and defense of that very heritage.



The first thing I noticed was the priests would say out loud the prayers of the antiphons before the exclamations, which are not called for.

I didn't really care for the skufia for the first deacon. At least he is allowed to wear one during services.
Posted By: Diak Re: beautiful video of Ukrainian Divine Liturgy - 09/16/13 03:57 PM
Quote
that is of course the preservation and defense of that very heritage.

I perhaps more than many others am a lover of and staunch defender of the Mohylian liturgical heritage and, as I said, enjoy the current usage and frequently defend it.

As a child of the larger Constantinopolitan heritage, one can't also simply dismiss liturgical scholarship. To my knowledge the Kiss of Peace was never the cause of any of the "schisms" at least in our (Kyivan) church. Taft indicates it ceased between the 11th-13 centuries likely out of convenience so it was likely never known at all in our particular liturgical heritage.

Certainly on Mt. Athos where it is still preserved it is not considered a distraction. I think sometimes some of what we proudly proclaim to be "preservation" is not necessarily of a profound theological nature, especially when it is an ommission. I don't think anyone will deny Athos being a significant liturgical model. Do we not exchange this at Forgiveness Vespers and Pascha? Is it never appropriate? Agian, as someone faithful to the Mohylian liturgical tradition I am simply asking the questions. And it is not just the Antiochians; Fr. Lawrence Farley does it in his OCA parish and has written about the need for its larger restoration.
Posted By: DMD Re: beautiful video of Ukrainian Divine Liturgy - 09/16/13 05:14 PM
^ All of the faithful would no doubt be scandalized if our Eastern Christian scientists were to develop a church time machine. Upon entering the Hagia Sophia at the height of her majesty, in say the late tenth century, with its resplendent mosaics at the peak of their brilliant color and the long lost, all powerful Pantokrator across the dome, no doubt our babas would shrug, look at us and ask, with an all knowing nod.... "It's nice, but where's the iconostas? " smile
By the tenth century, there was an iconostasis. Go back about three hundred years, before the renovation, before the iconoclasm.
Posted By: DMD Re: beautiful video of Ukrainian Divine Liturgy - 09/16/13 09:49 PM
Originally Posted by StuartK
By the tenth century, there was an iconostasis. Go back about three hundred years, before the renovation, before the iconoclasm.


I guess the fluxcapacitor needs a tuneup.
Originally Posted by Garajotsi
EWTN had Divine Liturgy of Exaltation of the Holy Cross on TV.
It was beautifully sung by the choir but I noticed that they sang the Trisagion and not the " To you Cross Oh Master..." as should have been used or can changes be made?

Kolya,

Having "been there and done that," I can say that it's quite possible the cantor or choir director was simply nervous and intoned the Trisagion by mistake, with everyone joining in before anyone realized this wasn't right--and then it was too late to change. frown

Posted By: DMD Re: beautiful video of Ukrainian Divine Liturgy - 09/17/13 03:49 PM
Originally Posted by Epiphanius
Originally Posted by Garajotsi
EWTN had Divine Liturgy of Exaltation of the Holy Cross on TV.
It was beautifully sung by the choir but I noticed that they sang the Trisagion and not the " To you Cross Oh Master..." as should have been used or can changes be made?

Kolya,

Having "been there and done that," I can say that it's quite possible the cantor or choir director was simply nervous and intoned the Trisagion by mistake, with everyone joining in before anyone realized this wasn't right--and then it was too late to change. frown



Been there, done that too! You just keep going, I was taught. It's better than stopping dead in your tracks when cantorng.
Interesting enough, the melody to the Hymn of the Incarnation sounds a lot like the one most Ruthenian Churches use.
It's amazing how two such culturally different traditions can have similar music!

Alex
Posted By: DMD Re: beautiful video of Ukrainian Divine Liturgy - 10/22/13 09:31 AM
Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
It's amazing how two such culturally different traditions can have similar music!

Alex


You are joking about our (Rusyn and Ukrainian) cultural traditions being "so different"? Right? They are not identical, but there are pretty darn close on a global scale.

I know I'll get kicked out of the "Rusyn Club" for suggesting the same and you'll be hauled before the "Ukrainian Inquisitors" if you agree with me, but (I wish I remembered ponashemu sayings here) truth is truth regardless of how it's varnished.
Dear DMD,

Yes indeed! I remember when a Rusyn bishop was going to address a group of UGCC priests and he said that he was going to speak Rusyn, so we were to bear with him.

He then went on and on until I thought . . . now when was he going to start speaking in Rusyn? I braced myself and found that Rusyn was as understandable to me as Ukrainian.

Ukrainians themselves have always called each other "Rusyns." Such as, "Well, you know, I'm obviously a stupid Rusyn for having done that . . ."

It could have pejorative connotations, depending on who is calling you that and how.

The Rusyny are so close to the Ukies so as to be virtually indistinguishable . . .

I think I hear footsteps . . . see you later!

Alex
Posted By: DMD Re: beautiful video of Ukrainian Divine Liturgy - 10/30/13 03:30 PM
Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Dear DMD,

Yes indeed! I remember when a Rusyn bishop was going to address a group of UGCC priests and he said that he was going to speak Rusyn, so we were to bear with him.

He then went on and on until I thought . . . now when was he going to start speaking in Rusyn? I braced myself and found that Rusyn was as understandable to me as Ukrainian.

Ukrainians themselves have always called each other "Rusyns." Such as, "Well, you know, I'm obviously a stupid Rusyn for having done that . . ."

It could have pejorative connotations, depending on who is calling you that and how.

The Rusyny are so close to the Ukies so as to be virtually indistinguishable . . .

I think I hear footsteps . . . see you later!

Alex


The folks at the UGC Church here at home truly loved my dad, the long time Rusyn Orthodox priest, but they would tease him - and he would tease back - about who had the 'proper' accent. Of course in Kiev or Odessa they would all be viewed as indistinguishable 'provincials' or 'country folk' for our American readers. That was the inside joke.

Our family was from the Slovak side of the Dukla pass along the Tatra mountains and many of the UGCC parish who were dispossessed after the war hailed from the Polish side of the same divide. Good memories. Good people.
Posted By: lm Re: beautiful video of Ukrainian Divine Liturgy - 11/01/13 10:06 PM
Originally Posted by Garajotsi
EWTN had Divine Liturgy of Exaltation of the Holy Cross on TV .
It was beautifully sung by the choir but I noticed that they sang the Trisagion and not the " To you Cross Oh Master..." as should have been used or can changes be made?

Kolya


Members of The Lyceum Schola Cantorum sung that Divine Liturgy:

http://thelyceum.org/schola.html

http://thelyceum.org/schola-youtube.html

You might say that we are a school "singing with both lungs":

http://thelyceum.org/spiritual.html

"At the Lyceum the students are exposed to many rites of Mother Church including both the Ordinary and Extraordinary Forms, as well as The Divine Liturgy of the Eastern Churches. In addition to the All School Mass, held at least once a week, daily Mass is available to the students during their lunch hour right next door at St. Gregory's Church of Sacred Heart of Jesus Parish."

The Liturgy was recorded in September of 2012, but as I recall it may not have actually been on the Feast of the Exaltation which would account for the Trisagion.

You can learn more about Lyceum Schola Cantorum here:

http://www.chantcafe.com/2012/04/beautiful-polyphony-from-lyceum-schola.html

If you happen to be in Washington DC at the March for Life, we will be singing at the 2nd annual memorial Mass for Nellie Gray, the founder of the March for Life:

http://www.thepaulusinstitute.org/News/Second%20Annual%20Nellie%20Gray%20Mass.htm

The Mass will be celebrated by Dom Phillip Anderson Abbot of Our Lady of Clear Creek Monastery in Tulsa, OK.

Should you wish to get a copy of our CD, Ave Verum Corpus, which includes the Trisagion and the Beatitudes, feel free to contact me via The Lyceum website or this email.
Let's not forget that Uzhgorod is right on the Ukraine/Slovakia border, and therefore, well, it could be interesting to hear stories from the Slovak side of Carpatho-Rus' and the Ukrainian side of it, in terms of how well they relate to the UGCC. I think I remember a priest that was ordained and served mainly in the UGCC that also filled in for a nearby Ruthenian parish in the area where I was growing up during weekday morning Divine Liturgies back in the day. So, yeah...interesting for a Ukrainian priest to be holding a Divine Liturgy in a Ruthenian parish, but, who knows? Maybe he was brought up in both Churches, and knew the different chants and different cultures.
Posted By: DMD Re: beautiful video of Ukrainian Divine Liturgy - 11/02/13 08:28 PM
Originally Posted by 8IronBob
Let's not forget that Uzhgorod is right on the Ukraine/Slovakia border, and therefore, well, it could be interesting to hear stories from the Slovak side of Carpatho-Rus' and the Ukrainian side of it, in terms of how well they relate to the UGCC. I think I remember a priest that was ordained and served mainly in the UGCC that also filled in for a nearby Ruthenian parish in the area where I was growing up during weekday morning Divine Liturgies back in the day. So, yeah...interesting for a Ukrainian priest to be holding a Divine Liturgy in a Ruthenian parish, but, who knows? Maybe he was brought up in both Churches, and knew the different chants and different cultures.


Keep in mind that prior to World War 2 Transcarpathia was part of the Hungarian kingdom and then Czechoslovakia. The Ruthenian Greek Catholic Church encompassed the Eparchy of Munkacs(Mucachevo) with seminaries and bishops in Ungvar(Uzhorod) and Presov. While the chant traditions of both regions were nearly identical, there were many melodies known to those trained in Presov which were uncommon, if known at all, by those of Uzhorod. Indeed, many Presov favorites were borrowed from or shared with those of the Galicians(now Ukrainians) even from Lemko sources as well and are not to be found in "Boksaj' s" Prostopenije. By the way, UOCUSA Bishop Daniel of Chicago is part Rusyn as well as UOC Bishop Christopher.OCA Bishops Melchizedek and Michael are Rusyn. I'm sure there are similar Eastern Catholic comparables.
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