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Posted By: Alice The Beard in Orthodoxy - 01/25/07 06:21 PM
One of our most interesting and humorous posters for many, many years has been Dr. Alex Roman (Orthodox-Catholic). He recently posted this on Church News. I thought it would be suitable to post it here, and to start a thread about the topic.

Dear Friends,

In fact, the beard has a long and venerable history in Orthodox Christianity.

For example, it was a symbol for being a Christian at one time. . .

Sts Anthony, John and Eustace, Lithuanian Slavs martyred by Olgerde, were identified as being Christian SOLELY by their beards and their refusal to shave them off!

St Basil the Great once wrote that when he grabbed his beard he "knew he was not a woman." etc.

The reason the autocephalist Ukrainian Orthodox shaved their beards was to differentiate themselves from the Russian Orthodox. The Kyivan canons of 1921 of the UAOC actually decreed that beards were not to be an absolute rule for clergy. And the Antiochian Metropolitan Philip Sabiba has no beard (always wondered about that!).

The Ukrainian Catholic clergy did not wear beards as bearded clergy earned them the nasty epithet of "Katsap" (ie. Russophile clergy and among the UGCC clergy at one time their name was "legion.").

So there is a long-standing tradition in Orthodoxy about clergy wearing beards (and robes etc.) to show they are an icon of Christ. When UAOC discarded it, they were breaking with that Orthodox tradition (and they broke with it a number of times when they instituted married bishops etc.).

In the UGCC, we are like the Anglicans with "High Church Byzantine" and "Low Church Latin" sections.

I met a young UGCC Basilian priest and looked closely at his black sash. I asked him about it and he smiled as he said, "It's probably a carry-over from the Jesuits - they reformed us four times in our history you know!"

I said I did know but wasn't going to say anything out of courtesy . . .

Vladyka David's sister is a Lutheran, it just so happens, and I hope no one will suggest that means he has Protestantizing tendencies as well!

Alex
Posted By: Miller Re: The Beard in Orthodoxy - 01/25/07 06:28 PM
Quote
The reason the autocephalist Ukrainian Orthodox shaved their beards was to differentiate themselves from the Russian Orthodox. The Kyivan canons of 1921 of the UAOC actually decreed that beards were not to be an absolute rule for clergy. And the Antiochian Metropolitan Philip Sabiba has no beard (always wondered about that!).

How very interesting. I would like to look this up. Where are these canons printed? If you give me the Title and place of publication I can look for it. Can I find them online anywhere?
Any help will be appreciated.

As per my previous post, in the 17th century, travellers noticed that Ukrainian Orthodox priests in Kyiv, contrast to Russian priests in Moscow did not shave their beards. No comments were made about Orthodox priests in other areas of Ukraine.
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: The Beard in Orthodoxy - 01/25/07 06:40 PM
Dear Miller,

I do believe one can find the "Kyivan Canons" in the Basilian publication re: Basil Lipkyvsky that they have in their catalogue. One can readily find this at St Vlad's Institute as well.

The Kyivan Canons of 1921 decreed, among other things, that those among the clergy who refused to use modern, understandable Ukrainian in the liturgy were "sinning against the Holy Spirit." They also decreed the use in ektenias, "For our God-loving and God-protecting Mother Ukraine" etc.

The reason Russian priests began shaving their beards at one time was due to the Western influence coming from Peter the Great.

As you know, Peter the Great was against beards and considered them to be an example of Russian backwardness. The Russian Old Believers refused to shave their beards and for this had to pay a special tax that earned them a coin with a picture of a man with a beard on it. When they walked in the streets of Russian towns and cities, the police could always ask them for this coin to ensure they paid their tax - otherwise they could have been arrested.

Peter the Great also carried a bag with barber's utensils with him at times. If anyone dared to show up with a beard, he actually was known to pinion them to the chair (at table) and unceremoniously shave the beard off.

Basil Lipkyvsky's successor, Nicholas Boretsky, was against the canons, did not shave his beard and was against married bishops etc.

This was a relative to our Vladyka Isidore Boretsky and when Nicholas was taken prisoner by the Soviets he was ordered to sign a document that affirmed there was no persecution of religion in the USSR.

To this, he retorted, "If there wasn't, I wouldn't be here!"

Nicholas Boretsky died in a Soviet concentration camp after losing his mind under torture.

I, for one, honour him as a New Hieromartyr - and he is a distant relative of mine.

Alex
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: The Beard in Orthodoxy - 01/25/07 06:44 PM
Dearest Moderator Alice,

I just wanted to ask you to kindly accept my spiritual kiss on your hand! smile

Alex
Posted By: PrJ Re: The Beard in Orthodoxy - 01/25/07 06:47 PM
One more historical note: the question of Beards reaches back to the times of Alexander (the Great or the Demon, depending on where you live confused). Given his young age, according to at least one testimony, he was unable to grow a beard and he thus decreed that no one in a leadership position in the army could grow one either. This gave rise to a cultural understanding in the West that beards are a sign of barbarism whereas an unshaven face is a sign of culture, dignity and respect.

There is another tradition about beards that developed during the Byzantine period. (This is mentioned by among others Isaac Asimov in his history of the Byzantine Empire.) Since it was common for the Treasurer as well as the Custodian of the Empress to be Eunuchs, they were distinguished by their inability to grow beards. As a result, a shaven face became a sign of the lack of masculinity, effeminity, etc. This is one reasons why the Byzantine Emperors began to grow beards whereas their Roman forbears did not. Can you imagine Julius Caesar in a beard? (Anyone familiar with the medieval discussions between the West and the East will remember these themes!)

This is (to me) a good reminder of the fact that words and symbols have no meaning other than that which each culture gives to them. Each symbol must therefore be interpreted within its cultural context. (Of course, the greatest example is the swaztika which is a sign of peace to pious Hindus but a sign of intolerance, bigotry and ethnic cleansing in the post-WW2 West.) Since today, in America, beards have no meaning and no cultural significance (although I do note that few, only five, presidents have had them -- can anyone remember the last president to have a beard? Although it is interesting that the only presidents with beards were Republicans! I wonder what that means :o). I have lived on the East coast, the West coast and in the Midwest. I find it interesting that beards seem (on the basis of a non-scientific anecdotal survey that has absolutely no scholarly significance) to be more common in the Midwest. Although my wife tells me that is because I hang out with priests and professors -- both of whom tend to have beards biggrin

This brings up a rather humorous personal story. I started growing a beard as soon as I could (I hate to shave). When I married, my wife's mother's side of the family was very fundamentalistic Baptist. In their Baptist tradition, beards are a definite no-no (unlike my Presbyterian relatives where beards are a definite yes-yes). So every year on my birthday, I would receive a package from my wife's Grandfather (the patriarch of the family--God rest his soul). In this package, there would be included a Birthday card and a razor (sometimes, with a can of shaving cream)! laugh LOL
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: The Beard in Orthodoxy - 01/25/07 06:54 PM
Dear PrJ,

Well, in my cultural world, beards are definitely "Orthodox" and "tending towards Orthodoxy - suspiciously" wink

My wife's grandfather had a school friend who became Orthodox and then an Orthodox priest. They kept in touch over the years and I always knew he was speaking to him on the phone when he said, "How is that Orthodox beard of yours?"

To which the answer was always, "Growing well!"

I personally think it is inappropriate when some Presbyteras get together and giggle about how their husband's beards tickle . . .

And it most definitely is "Alexander the Great" - he was only a "demon" in battle . . . I almost reported your post to the Moderator there, so please watch it! smile
Alex
Posted By: Dr. Eric Re: The Beard in Orthodoxy - 01/25/07 06:57 PM
Alex,

I had to read your post twice as I thought you wrote that it was inappropriate for Presbyterians to joke how their husbands' beards tickle! laugh
Posted By: PrJ Re: The Beard in Orthodoxy - 01/25/07 07:02 PM
Word of Explanation: In their folk-lore, the Persians refer to Alexander as "the Demon" and claim that under his long locks of hair there were two horns. This is why I referenced "depending on where you live".

PBS did a wonderful special that I often show my class about how Alexander is interpreted differently by the cultures he conquered. To the Greeks and later to the Romans, he was great. To the Egyptians, Persians and Afghanis, he was definitely not very great as he burned their cities, etc.

Perspective is a very strange thing sometimes.
Posted By: Slavipodvizhnik Re: The Beard in Orthodoxy - 01/25/07 07:06 PM
OK, I have a question,.... what is it with the vast majority of American women and beards? The single most common question I am asked by women in my acquaintence is "When are you going to shave that awful thing off?" Now I trim it when it starts to get in the way, like getting tangled in the steering wheel, or falling in my soup, but I refuse to get rid of it. But I wish I had a quarter for every time I've been told to "get rid of it"! smile

Katsup v Pittsburghe
Posted By: ebed melech Re: The Beard in Orthodoxy - 01/25/07 07:21 PM
Originally Posted by Slavipodvizhnik
OK, I have a question,.... what is it with the vast majority of American women and beards? The single most common question I am asked by women in my acquaintence is "When are you going to shave that awful thing off?" Now I trim it when it starts to get in the way, like getting tangled in the steering wheel, or falling in my soup, but I refuse to get rid of it. But I wish I had a quarter for every time I've been told to "get rid of it"! smile

Katsup v Pittsburghe

LOL!

You want my honest opinion?

A beard = Masculinity not Metrosexuality.

Plus, as my wife mentions (quite often), beard clippings have a tendency to go eeeevvvveeeeerrryyywwwwwheeeeere!

Gordo shocked
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: The Beard in Orthodoxy - 01/25/07 07:25 PM
Dear PrJ,

Persians do that, do they? smile

The Arabic name for Alexander the Great is "Al-Qurnain" or the "Two-Horned One."

The crown of two horns is that of the Egyptian high god Amun-Ra that was given him by Egypt after Megas Alexandros defeated Darios at Issus. Egypt wasn't about to wage war with "Big Al" after that one . . .

Lysymachus struck an image of Alexander with the horns and he has traditionally been depicted with them. Horns are a symbol of wisdom (in fact, in the Book of Revelation, the Lamb of God will appear with seven horns or the plenitude of wisdom).

And I thought all you Americans took everything Iranians said with a grain of salt! smile

Alex
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: The Beard in Orthodoxy - 01/25/07 07:28 PM
Dear "Kool Kats-up,"

You should keep your beard. Just comb it frequently and avoid split ends.

If men like long flowing hair on a woman, what's the issue with beards?

Alex
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: The Beard in Orthodoxy - 01/25/07 07:40 PM
Dear Gordo,

Just be careful when you have soup, especially chicken noodle . . .

Alex
Posted By: Slavipodvizhnik Re: The Beard in Orthodoxy - 01/25/07 07:43 PM
Spaghetti is the worst! Spaghetti for lunch, and a hidden snack in the afternoon!

Alexandr
Posted By: ebed melech Re: The Beard in Orthodoxy - 01/25/07 07:50 PM
Originally Posted by Slavipodvizhnik
Spaghetti is the worst! Spaghetti for lunch, and a hidden snack in the afternoon!

Alexandr

Amen! I fear some day I may have to declare a foreign food product at customs!

Ramen, you know, can last a few days...

Gordo
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: The Beard in Orthodoxy - 01/25/07 08:22 PM
Did you fellows know that "Gee Whiz" is short for "Jesus' Whiskers?"

Yep . . .

Alex
Posted By: Our Lady's slave Re: The Beard in Orthodoxy - 01/25/07 09:55 PM
I like beards - I keep telling my GodPapa that I like his smile
Posted By: Alice Re: The Beard in Orthodoxy - 01/25/07 10:59 PM
Here is an idea: why doesn't someone post a poll on Town Hall for all the male posters here, so that we can see how many wear a beard and how many don't.

Perhaps that poll can also ask the females if they like them or not! eek
Posted By: ebed melech Re: The Beard in Orthodoxy - 01/25/07 11:27 PM
Originally Posted by Alice
Here is an idea: why doesn't someone post a poll on Town Hall for all the male posters here, so that we can see how many wear a beard and how many don't.

Perhaps that poll can also ask the females if they like them or not! eek

Great idea!

Of course, I knew a woman once who HAD a beard.... eek

Gordo
Posted By: Slavipodvizhnik Re: The Beard in Orthodoxy - 01/25/07 11:40 PM
"The beard signifies the courageous; the beard distinguishes the grown men, the earnest, the active, the vigorous. So that when we describe such, we say, he is a bearded man."
St. Augustine, Commentary on Psalm CXXXIII (133), 4th Century

"But the hair on the chin is not to be disturbed, as it gives no trouble, and lends to the face dignity and paternal terror."
St. Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor: Book III, AD 195

Metropolitan Gabriel (Petrov) of Petersburg and Novgorod was once going to a service, where the Archpriest Andrew Samborsky, whose beard was shaved off, was supposed to serve together with him. Seeing Samborsky, the Metropolitan said: "What kind of man are you? Our Church does not accept those who shave the beard. Get out!"
Little Russian Philokalia, Vol. 3, St. Herman. Pages 71-72

"You, young men, honor those with beards. And if there is a man of thirty with a beard and one of fifty, or sixty, or a hundred who shaves, place the one with the beard above the one who shaves, in Church as well as at the table. On the other hand, I don't say that a beard will get you to heaven, but good works will. And your dress should be modest, as well as your food and your drink. Your whole conduct should be Christian so that you will be a good example for others"
St. Kosmas Aitolos, 1700's AD


Alexandr
Posted By: Dr. Eric Re: The Beard in Orthodoxy - 01/26/07 12:21 AM
Does anyone else wanna know how big Alexandr's beard really is?

I gotta see a picture! laugh

I keep trying to grow one each fall, but there are too many patchy places in it. frown

And if I grow a goatee, my wife says I look like my brother! eek
Posted By: Dr. Eric Re: The Beard in Orthodoxy - 01/26/07 12:23 AM
I for one would like to see all priests look like St. John of Kronstadt but doesn't each Presbytera have a say in it too?
Posted By: Father Borislav Re: The Beard in Orthodoxy - 01/26/07 12:58 AM
It all comes down to the particulr parish. If the Parishioners and or the Church pays the priest enough so that he doesn't need to have a secular job, he should do His best to look like a priest.... beard or no beard....

Posted By: 70x7 Re: The Beard in Orthodoxy - 01/26/07 02:20 AM
I do not want to ask this question being disrespectful to anyone's position, but, why is so much time (three pages) being dedicated to this subject of beards? Shouldn't we be talking about JESUS instead? There are countless souls who need His loving touch and forgiveness. Every minute spent on this subject and many others, is one less minute touching the life of a needy soul.

Ray
Posted By: Slavipodvizhnik Re: The Beard in Orthodoxy - 01/26/07 02:22 AM
Always glad to comply! smile

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Slavipodvizhnik Re: The Beard in Orthodoxy - 01/26/07 02:26 AM
Ray, I understand where you are coming from, but in all honesty, after rebuffing attempts by modernist minded individuals intent on casting away Tradition, ongoing arguments over the Nature of Christ, endless debates on the Procession of the Holy Spirit, etc, it is good sometimes to not have to think so much and enjoy one another's company. Trust me, it will pass in a short while and we'll be right back to arguing.

Alexandr
Posted By: MarkosC Re: The Beard in Orthodoxy - 01/26/07 02:28 AM
eek eek eek eek eek eek eek eek eek eek

Slavipodvizhnik-

Who is that???!!!!

Markos


---------------------------------------------------------------------
Oh Lord although I desired to blot out
With my tears the handwriting of my many sins
And for the rest of my life to please thee through sincere repentance;
Yet doth the enemy lead me astray as he wareth
Against my soul with his cunning.
Oh Lord before I utterly perish do thou save me!

Posted By: ebed melech Re: The Beard in Orthodoxy - 01/26/07 02:28 AM
I will only point out, this guy ALSO has a beard.

A connection? It's possible!

Posted By: Slavipodvizhnik Re: The Beard in Orthodoxy - 01/26/07 02:30 AM
His name is Hans Langseth the Gillette Poster Boy of 1926!

Alexandr
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