I've been doing a bit of research on some things. Everyone knows we have a shortage of priests of just about every kind in the USA and probably in Canada. I found a website for an organization called the "Catholic Near East Welfare Association." (www.cnewa.org [cnewa.org]) and found some information about each different Byzantine Church and how many priests each one has in each eparchy. It also gives information on seminarians. The site has two yeats listed--2005 and 2006. They were compiled by Ronald G. Robertson, CSP and the source is listed as Annuario Pontificio.

Since I am Ruthenian I checked out those numbers first-in 2005 The Eparchy of Mukacevo in Ukraine had 128 seminarions. Pittsburgh had 1, Parma had 1, Passaic had 1, Van Nuys had 1 and the Czech Republic and 5. Total seminarians--138.

In 2006, Mukacevo Ukraine had 157 seminarians, PIttsburgh 0, Parma 0, Passaic 3, Van Nuys 1 and the Czech Republic had 6. That's a total of 167 seminarians.

Does anyone know of any plans to assign some of these seminarians when they graduate to the USA or Canada? I understand the celibacy issue in North America versus Europe. But it seems to me that the number or people in North America who need a Ruthenian priest may exceed the number of people in Eastern Europe who need Ruthenian priests. I don't have any other figures that the ones I listed. Nor do I know if they are accurate. That's why I listed the source and compiler. Someone may know more about that person and source than I do.

Just a few weeks ago my parish priest was talking during his sermon about how many priests are set to retire in the next year and how the average age of priests in getting up there. Praying for vocations is a great idea, and I do it. But if there is a pool of trained priests in Mukacevo and my priest is running anywhere from three to five parishes and driving enough miles to make OPEC laugh with glee.... I know there will be a language problem. But since I would prefer to see more Church Slavonic added to liturgy, this would not be a bad thing.

Does anyone have any thoughts or more information about this?

S'nami Boh

Tim

Well, but these priests would need to obtain "R" visas in order to come and minister to the US.

That takes time.

Shalom,
Memo

Tim:

Don't know about this in your eparchy, but my pastor made the remark the other day that the word he gets is that priests will be returning to the days when they didn't retire but continued on to the bitter end. So they don't have to worry about retirement.

In Christ,

BOB

Dear Tim,
I am Ukrainian Orthodox but if you let me comment, it sounds like a good idea. Can you suggest it to your consistory?

I would suggest that your church try to get seminarians who are about to complete their studies and let the person complete his last year in seminary in your local Ruthenian seminary in the USA. This way the student would be able to learn English and learn about the local church. Also hopefully, the student would marry a Ruthenian-American girl.
I saw this happen with one of our seminarians who married a 4th generation Ukrainian-Canadian girl and the couple work very well as a team ministry in their appointed parish.

In addition, if you have a Ruthenian student complete his education in the USA, the student would learn about pastoral problems in the USA. Just from my experience of Ukrainian seminaries I know that pastoral theology is somewhat lacking there as part of the curriculum.

There are so many factors in play when it comes to the idea of importing seminarians. As easy as it sounds to go "vocations dipping" in another nation to bring back a plain-full of bright faced happy seminarians to serve as priests here, I just don't know how practical or realistic that could be.

IMHO, the the cultures are so very different and the culture shock is problematic. Also considering that BCS is in the heart of the "Pierogi belt" in the 1990s when this experiment was tried on a limited basis, it was, not without problems. Some of the kids they brought over here got a little overwhelmed with our way of life, but also benifited greatly from some of the higher-placed clergy in the metropolia who saw to it that the sons of our "poor suffering countrymen" wanted for nothing... While some of the native born/converts/non-ethnic/fully assimilated partial "Ruthenians" had to make due on considerably less. "Piotr" & "Volodomyr" had access to cars, cell phones, air plane trips all accross the Metropolia, dinner with the clergy.... Bob & Paul, road the bus, went to McDonald's on occasion, and hoped friends and family back home would help them repair their clunkers and went - frequently - without health insurance.

The intentions were good, the effects were not.

I can't help but wonder also if a surge in vocations from "the other side" wouldn't introduce an ethnic flavor that a good deal of parishes in the metropolia (for good or ill) have lost. My parish today is made up of a hodge-podge of Americans - converts, transfers, lapsed Latins who came back to worship with us, Hispanics, and just plain ethnic "midwesterners". If we were going to get priests from another country, we would do just as well at my parish to get them from Africa or Asia.

Heck, for all the flack "The Journey Home" program on EWTN recieved on this board a month or two back, I frequently watch it and hear stories of Protestant clergy converts to the Catholic Church (especially those that do not qualify for priestly ordination under the terms of the "Pastoral Provision"). I look at some of those guys - who have become Catholic in the hundreds if not thousands - and think to myself "Why can't they become priests for us???? We could use that pastoral experience, that zeal, that fidelity to the teachings of the Catholic Church!"

If anything, we could certainly use a new crop of clergy interested in making converts in our post-Christian culture, rather than simply tending to the status quo or hoping to fill the pews with enough disaffected Romans...

For decades now we have staffed our own parishes in the US with celibate men born here. Now the opportunity to ordain married men is present - far from a boom, we are at an all time low. We have a wider latitude of candiates to choose from, and fewer candidates even stepping forward.

Given the size of some of our smaller parishes, many of them would do well with a married priest or two. Here in my city the OCA parish - smaller than the Greek Catholic parish - has two or three priests attached to it - the senior pastor is a high school teacher, the other priests are older men who were privately trained.

This system is not without flaws, but would or could a Greek Catholic parish be able to be ministered to by an older married man who did not necessarily attend graduate level seminary for several years out of his life? Could a correspondance training program and a formation program be developped allowing for older married men to be trained for the diaconate and then the priesthood while serving in their parish? It seems to me that is what was done in the East for years....

I don't have the answers... but looking to the "homeland" for vocations always seems to come in last on my list of ideas for vocationa rejuvenation.

Amen, Simple Sinner. Amen.

I believe a return in all four eparchies to our tradition of ordaining to the priesthood married men would do much to "rejuvenate" vocations to the priesthood.

Ryan

Thanks for all the responses. I agree that returning to ALL of our traditions would help rejuvenate the Byzantine Ruthenian Church. And I would especially like to see that tradition come back. But I beleive it has been pointed out in other threads on this forum, that the eparchy of Parma, Ohio has already ordained three married men. None of the other Ruthenian eparchies have yet. There is nothing stopping them, it just hasn't been done yet. Why? That's another good question that never seems to get answered! And this Forum is full of them!

In all seriousness, does anyone know if the powers that be, in all areas from any and all Churches, are aware of what the people think? Roman Catholic, Eastern Catholic, Orthodox? Do they care to know? Are they aware of this Forum? Do they read the Forums or have someone read them and report to them? Is there even the slightest interest as to what the person sitting in the pew thinks? I seem to remember from history that some of the best rulers were those that used to dress up as humble citizens and walk around their cities at night, trying to get the pulse of the people. Yes, it was used by a few bad apples too, but overall, it seems as if it's a valid thing for someone in a management position to do--if not talk directly with people, they can read what is being written. Surely they aren't that pressed for time!

Tim

The Byzantine Catholic Church in America has the highest priest/ people ratio of any Church. We are spoiled for priests (even though the clergy are elderly, and this is a conern), the people can barely support the number of clergy they have now.

What other Catholic Church has a priest for each 100 to 200 of its faithful?

The sad fact, is that the number of faithful is being reduced, at an even greater rate than the number of clergy. In many parishes, the real danger is that it will be the elderly priest, who will be the last one to turn out the light.

With no strategy for growth, renewal, or evangelization to speak of.... this Church has put much of its finances (more than 2 million dollars) and so much of its energy into a debacle, called 'revising' the ancient and beautiful Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom, I call it ruining our beautiful tradition. A great act of faith in the future....

But then that is probably off topic....

But my point, is that this Church doesn't have a priest crisis, it has an identity crisis.

Nick

When I interviewed Bishop Jan Babjak two years ago, the question was asked to him if he would consider sending priests to America.

We were in Presov Cathedral where he was getting ready to ordain 6 new priests that Sunday in 2005. He told us that Presov Diocese has the problem of too many priests and nowhere to put them.

When the question was asked, he simply stated, "I would be more than happy to send priests to you. Your bishop simply needs to request it." These are the direct words of Bishop Babjak.

Now, the real question is, why doesn't our Archbishop request priests from the homeland? Too afraid of married priests? (I personally know priests that left the Byzantine Rite because the bishop would not ordain them) Too afraid that the culture may be kept, (e.g. Rusyn, Slovak, Hungarian, Croatian, etc. Keeping the traditional Slavonic Liturgy instead of this nonsense Revised Divine Liturgy)? Too afraid of the language barrier (which I do not believe, just simply look at other Eastern churches).

Too bad we cannot do what we have done when our ancestors came to this country, request our own priests.

I guess that we just have to keep praying that one day, Pittsburgh will again ordain married priests...

Church in communion with Rome probably no other...Eastern Christian Churches...pretty common...

Chris

A simple request is not as simple as it may seem. There are tremendous cultural differences that can hurt the situation more than help it. I believe it was earlier in this thread, it was stated that we should have some of them finish seminary studies here so they can get into the american mind...I think that would be a big help...although I have seen a few people on the UGCC side who came to seminary studies in the US and became too americanized and didn't finish...

Chris

This costs money, doesn't it? has anyone done a cost analysis of supporting such clergy and their families? Can a Byzantine community of ten families finance a pastor?

Why is the number of seminarians in the US Byzantine Catholic church so low comparied to others? Doesn't any Byzantine Catholic man in the US want to be a priest?

I hear a lot about married priests, but is thta granted to all Byzantine Catholic priests?

Maybe women can enter the ministry and take over priest jobs? i know of some Roman Catholilc nuns who run a parish or two but aren't allowed to say mass. Wouldn't opening the doors to women priests make the Byzantine Catholic church seem to be more open and contemporary? I am sure this would diminish the need for foregin priests. If men in the US don't want to wear the collar then maybe it is time to hand over the responsibility to others?

If women cannot be preists then what is keeping the men from becoming priests? I can't understand the numbers given above. There are so many posters here on these forums that know so much about religion and Christ that it behooves me to think that they never thought of offering themselves to the work of the Lord.

How difficult is it to become a priest in the Byzantine Catholic church? Is it easier in those other countries? Will the seminary that is used here close?

Eddie

A study was once done on the average age of pastors in different churches. I just looked for my notes on this study and there was a reference to the Byzantine Catholic church. The average age of a Byzantine Catholic priest in the U.S. is 64 years. It listed the same communities given above (Pittsburgh, Passaic, Parma and Van Nuys). Is this the same Byzantine Catholic church represented on this website?

Eddie

Ed,

Yes, I believe it is.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

Goodness gracious! How did such a vineyard end up in such shambles? Forgive me for asking. But this is shocking. With numbers like that, church communities will disappear quicker than what Islam did to Christianity in the past. But this is the U.S. There is no Islamic force closing churches and killing priests, and force converting Byzantine Catholics. Why is the vineyard in such a condition here, but very healthy (is 158 seminarians a good number?) elsewhere? why? forgive me for asking. I am not trying to be pernicious on this. There is a lot of beauty and truth in your religion. It seems all too sinister that this church is in such a crisis. That the average age of pastors is 64 is a very dangerous sign of the times. i looked at the data and it wasn't 44 or 54; it was actually 64. This is too hard to imagine. Someone please tell me that this is incorrect.

Eddie

Ed,

For that you will need some feedback from some our Byzantine Catholic posters. I am sure they can offer some answers to your questions.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+

It is quite correct unfortunately.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Well lets not forget the THOUSANDS (probably) who gave up on the Byzantine church over the last 100 years and just went to the Roman church to "fit in" as Americans.

My own family of relatives from Jakubany all went RC over the years , except for my immediate family in central PA who stayed Byzantine because my grandfather HAD A CAR and actually drove the 9 miles to the Greek Catholic Church in Portage Pa.

When he offered to drive them to Portage on occasion, they just said "no we'll just go to St. Francis Xavier right up the street"!

Ed,

Nowhere is it written that a parish must 'support a family', i.e pay for the upkeep of priest, wife and children. Why should the wife sit at home and be paid for by the parish?

I know a number of married priest, all with children. The wives all work. Often they are teachers (and this helps cut down education costs). They help in the parish - cantors, secretaries, etc.

Ever time we have a discussion on married clergy we hear that parishes can't afford them. I admit, it is cheaper to split a priest between two parishes, run him into the ground, then eventually have no priest because vocations to the celibate priesthood are down and married priests are 'impractical'.

The day of a parish priest (and family) being fully supported by parishioners is long gone, soon to be followed by a lot of parishes.

I seem to be reading a variety of postings regarding the Rusyn Catholic Churches in the USA. The voice of those who want to maintain their traditions which they inherited from the founders of the parishes is being expressed. Surely, one way to nourish this precious heritage is to sponsor seminarians from the Old Country for their last few years or last year in the USA.

What a shame if this religious heritage is lost. Maybe with an infusion of new blood the people who have fallen away will return.

Personally I think the Church in the US would be better served to send our seminarians abroad for their training, that is if the theology of the new Byzantine liturgical order is a product of our seminary training here. Why corrupt a whole generation of European priests with Ortho-newspeak, and eastern Catholic follow-along?

Mary

If people just don't want to preserve their Byzantine church (if the desire isn't there) then this unfortunate circumstance is understandable.

Where does this need to "fit in" come from? This implies that the Gospel message is subservient to one's personal desires or whims. I hope this is not so, but from what you stated it seems to be a century long practice.

I would think that "fitting in" to the Gospel proclaimed in the Byzantine church would be an honorable thing in itself worthy of educating the next generation and new members.

Eddie

If it was never written anywhere then why are those days long gone? Was it written before? Are you saying now that the community or church no longer has the responsibility to pay its priests? Are priests independent proprietors who have to find financial support on their own? maybe this is why the U.S. seminary is empty? There is no support and the men know it. It was mentioned that foreign priests serve the Byzantine Catholic churches here. Do they have to find a job to support their spouses and children? or are they exempt but not U.S. born priests? Tell me more.

Eddie

Will this bring back those who would rather go to the nearest Roman Catholic church a block away instead of driving nine miles to their own church?

Dedication or fidelity seems to be very low if not nonexistent. There seems to be a greater problem that is working towards such departures and empty seminaries.

Permitting marriage for the priests is a good idea, but support is wanting. It is like telling a young male member of the church that it is a noble idea to serve his church as a priest, but he has to fund his education, pay for his house, insurance, food, transportation, and feed and clothe his children on his own while not expectin any financial support from his church community. If he does get any then he will have to live on minimum wage. If the money still isn't there then being a priest is still considered a noble idea. With that in mind, considering being a priest also includes the possibility of living in marginal poverty. What man today would want to offer his wife and children poverty? I am not talking about making a monetary killing off the backs of the community like some do. In this environment it seems understandable that celibacy is the only answer since this is the only affordable lifestyle thta the church can afford.

Eddie

Cross-training is always a good idea, but will this solve the vocation problem? They still have to come home to an empty seminray. And if it empties any further then there will be no seminarian to send abroad.

I would think that finding a solution to the reason why there are no seminarians should be first priority. how can a seminary or church in the Ukraine make better do with vocations than in the U.S.?

Eddie

As a married priest, I have to sadly agree. The cost of raising a family in today's world, as most of the posters understand well, is rising every year. The reality of the future will be bi-vocational priests -- who work at secular jobs and pastor parishes.

There was an interesting article in the local paper about this last week. Close to 45% of all Protestant pastors are bi-vocational -- and the number is rising each year.

Of course, and here I speak as a priest who supports his family with a secular job, having a priest that works a full-time secular job as well as pastors a parish requires a different mindset on the part of the laity. The priest cannot be as available to the people when he works a full-time job, etc.

I think we also have to be careful that the parish does not take advantage of the priest when he works a full-time job. It is very difficult to manage everything!

One more point: I totally reject the idea that the parish should depend on the priest's wife to support the family while the parish supports the priest. Little will embitter a wife more than to see the parish reject her and her children while embracing her husband. I also know that the stress this would create in a marriage would be almost unbearable. The priest's family SUFFERS tremendously as the priest is called out frequently, etc. To add to this suffering the responsibility of supporting the family so that the priest can go about his priestly business without worrying about the needs of his wife and children would be to add insult to injury. Plus, if we Catholics believe in having children -- who would support the family as the priest's wife raises the children? Etc.

This is one of the articles on part-time clergy that I found:

http://www.lsj.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070623/NEWS01/706230336/1001/news


This is another article:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19365626/

For those who don't want to read the entire article, I found this to be enlightening:


How many of our churches could afford to pay a married priest $60,000 a year?


I think you might also find this scholarly analysis interesting:

http://www.pulpitandpew.duke.edu/clergyweek.html

This is a very significant point.



And this is also a very significant point.

Churches, like people, who know what they are about and who are focussed on that clearly tend to have better chances for survival and prosperity than others.

I think the BCC's leadership has lost its way. Changing the liturgy was not needed (in my opinion). Reviving the theory and practice of theosis, by evanglization, begining with its own parishes, would have been much more useful and productive (in my opinion), including generating interest and enthusiasm for religious vocations.

But, I am a sinner, and my opinion may well be wrong. Please forgive me if my opinions cause offense.

-- John

Part of this is the numbers. There always were few Eastern Catholics in the U.S. Hence, there always were few Eastern Catholic parishes. Furthermore, many of those parishes were concentrated in a few cities of the Mid-Atlantic and Great Lakes regions of the U.S. America is a mobile country in which people must move (often hundreds of miles) in order to follow opportunity. So, many Eastern Catholics simply could not find an Eastern Catholic parish when they moved to follow opportunity. But, there almost always was a Roman Catholic parish wherever they went. So, if they wanted to remain Catholic, many Eastern Catholics had no alternative than to become Roman Catholic.

Part of this is assimilation. For a lot of Eastern Catholics, their religion was part of their culture from the old country. As they adopted the culture of this country, they wanted to adopt the religion of this country too. That meant, by and large, being Protestant or being Roman Catholic.

Moreover, part of this is because of the Roman Catholic Church's treatment of its Eastern Catholic brethren. Eastern Catholic traditions --especially married priests-- were not recognized by many Roman Catholic prelates in the U.S. Then, the Vatican outright banned married priests in North America, even for Eastern Catholic "sui juris" churches who were supposedly guaranteed their traditions by the Vatican by their terms of their unia with the Vatican. As a result, a lot of Eastern Catholics preserved their Eastern Tradition by joining the Orthodox Church.

Finally, there is a question of, for lack of a better term, momentum. Where is the momentum in a religion in a given time and place? And where is it not? For Christianity in America these days, some religions (like the Roman Catholics and the Orthodox and the Evangelicals and Pentecostals) are committed and active and successful in bringing in new members. Others churches, albeit with some notable exceptions within their ranks, seem less committed or active or able to bring in new members.

But, that is just my opinion; and I might be wrong.

-- John

Kobzar,

Actually it is written, in the CCEO:

Canon 390

1. Clerics have the right to a suitable sustenance and to receive a just remuneration for carrying out the office or function committed to them; in the case of married clerics, the sustenance of their families, unless this has been otherwise sufficiently provided, is to be taken into account.

2. They also have the right that there be provided for themselves as well as for their families, if they are married, suitable pension funds, social security as well as health benefits. So that this right can be effectively put into practice clerics are bound by an obligation on their part to contribute to the fund spoken of in can. 1021, 2 according to the norm of the particular law.

Canon 1021

1. Unless other provisions have been made, each eparchy, according to the particular law of the proper Church sui iuris of
which it is a part, is to have a special fund which collects goods and offerings, and whose purpose is to provide appropriately for the decent and fundamentally equal support of all the clerics who serve the eparchy.

2. Wherever social security and health insurance have not yet been suitably arranged for the clergy, the particular law of each Church sui iuris will provide for the creation of institutes safeguarding these benefits and put them under the vigilance of the local hierarch.

3. Insofar as it is necessary, each eparchy is to establish a general fund according to a manner defined by the particular law of its own Church sui iuris, through which the eparchial bishops can satisfy obligations towards other persons who serve the Church as well as meet the various needs of the eparchy; this fund can also be the means through which the wealthier eparchies can aid the poorer ones.

By saying "fit in" I meant that the attitude was most American Catholics are Roman rite so lets just go there.

Many of my relatives did this as well as many people I've met over the years who say they have Byzantine roots, but it goes back to their grand parents or even great grand parents! They were baptized and raised RC.

That salary sounds right. My Baptist friends get good pay. Even the music minister gets a salary of at least 30K.

The surveys on clergy salaries is enlightening. Catholics, I believe, got used to governments and nobles paying the salaries of their priests. In the US, it is based on contributions. many seem to expect their pastors, many who are not monks, to live the life of a monk (in poverty with an annual pitance, no wife or family, and obedience to a church shepherd). Don't get me wrong; I like monks.

But I find it strange to take a man out of his community, have him study in a monastic like community/seminary, then commission him to lead a community elsewhere on a pay less than minimum wage. Bottom line - you will not attract too many men to the priesthood. And what if that man has to live in an environment that is hostile to Christian virtues? I am thinking here of those Catholic seminaries that permit openly the homosexual lifestyle (please note that this is basd on studies I have read about Roman Catholic seminaries; I do not know about the one that only has four seminarians and cannot make a judgment). There becomes too many gauntlets for a virtuous Christian man to go through just to serve the Lord. And if he makes it to priesthood - given the way things are - how long will he last before he either leaves? Strong is the man who loves the way of the Lord and will serve Him despite all the hardships. But there is the family issue. A Christian man wants to please his wife and assure her of stability and faithfulness. you are correct, PrJ, to mention the catch-22 place a wife is put if she is made to be the financial crutch of her husband's ministry. in a crisis like this it is understandable how a church will find quick fixes that in the long run will dissuade young men to consider the ministry of priesthood.

I feel for you Byzantine Catholics. Beautiful churches, New Testament style of singing, strong in the faith, glorious past. any communities showing the opposite? any growing communities that are role models? if so, then how come these communities are not used as methods to halt the closing of churches?

I have relatives who used to belong to a Christian community (non-Catholic, non-Evangelical) which was contemplating closing its doors. Then they stopped complaining and decided to work for the Lord like there was no tomorrow. In-fighting was prohibited. In a symbolic act, they tore down their community buildings and place of worship and rebuilt all new. The teens were greatly involved in the whole process. Many of the famillies built their community worship center with their bare hands. Outreach programs began in every field and for every age. Senior ministries. Youth ministries. Study groups. Missions. Now they are contemplating remodeling their six year old house of worship since it is only standing room only. THEY KNEW WHO THEY WERE AND WERE NOT AFRAID TO SPEAK IN THE NAME OF THE LORD; THEY WERE ON FIRE. They used to send candidates of ministry to a college over five hundred miles away. Now, they instruct their own ministers at home and house a number of visiting students from the same distance. Their senior shepherd (like a bishop) was against this and tried to sell their property to pay debts he was responsible for. He was eventually fired by his own people.

Eddie

Good idea Mary. I am sure the American students would welcome studying in classes with more students rather than the small classes in the USA. Also there would be a pool of more professors, each with specialized areas to teach. As you imply, pariticipation in a full liturical life would be of great benefit.

I agree, Mary's idea is a good one.
I know not know about your seminary, but maybe one of the professors could go over for 1 term with the first batch of students to help them adjust.

We have a number of priests who could do a credible job of taking seminarians abroad. They don't have to work at our seminary.

Mary

They probably would and the language training wouldn't hurt them either.

There is grave concern even in Orthodoxy, [I don't mind saying even though I get slammed for saying such things] about the new breed of "bookish" priests, highly polished acedemics...or at least they tend to think so.

As our holy monks and bishops age and die, who will replace them? Not their book knowledge, of which they had a great deal, some of them, but their prayerful opening of the eye of the soul.

Humility is often in very short supply among academics.

Mary

How many of the four seminarians do you recommend go over?

Will they be permitted to marry? Maybe this is what they would welcome most.

What exactly would be the purpose of going overseas if the need is greater for Byzantine Catholics in the US?

Eddie

God be praised ! What a good example this seems to be ! It is this kind of organic, gross-roots kind of church-building that is enlivening to a community. Happily, I have seen this in a Catholic parish and in an Orthodox parish too.

-- John

Dear Ed,
I want to address 2 of your posts:

If you only have 4 students, then yes send all four over.
Yes, they should get married because that is the tradition and an important part of the spirituality of the Church.
Why? Because as Mary said and I agreed, it would be good training in the liturgical life of the Church. Also, I believe it would be beneficial for 4 students to study in a larger class of students and with professors who are specialists in various areas of Eastern theology, church history, liturgy and pastoral theology.

Speaking as an Orthodox person, our priests can not be educated in a house. They need to have spiritual formation by living in a seminary where their character is under observation and where they partake in the full iturigcal cycle of the Church. Also their instructors should be professors not lay people who are busy with their own jobs 8 hours a day. The scenerio you describe may be fine for Protestants with their emphasis on preaching and Bible studies but not for my Church with its own spiritual traditions, liturgical life and theology.

John, Can you share what they did to revive?
Eddie

Can't this be done in the church community he live in? The seminary as an institution is a Catholic development.

There has been a lot of "characters" who have given the Catholic church a black eye for their behavior, which fostered in a seminary environment. Though it is good that there are seminaries that stress a more Christian way of life, not one indulging in sin. These schools are full, not empty or closed. I think removing a future shepherd from his sheep for so many years is dangerous. No one is called to a vocation of seminarian. but education is needed nonetheless. The Church cannot have dummies for shepherds.


Do you think Orthodox "houses" of study like the one run by the Antiochians should be shut down because they are not seminary enough? I read that they are even tied in with the Presbyterians for their studies. What are your thoughts on this? I met some Antiochian priests and they are a joy to be around; their church communities are vibrant and full of educated and loving people. A few were former Protestants and even Roman Catholic.

Eddie

Should the Byzantine Catholic seminary in the US be closed? Is this the subtle hint being implied?

Maybe a the seminary idea isn't that bad. Maybe it is those who had enjoyed tenure too long?

I saw one Gospel school close due to "lack of students" and a "poverty of vocations to ministry". Then it reopened under a new administration, new rules, and a new code of ethics (administrators, teachers, and students had to sign a pledge for Gospel-centered ministry and against homosexuality which was one troublesome issue from the past). It is amazing what happens when one pours new wine into new wineskins. What was once haunting halls of yesteryear became a beacon of hope.

I don't want to speak on behalf of Byzantine Catholics, but maybe a few pink slips are needed. I hate to think that it would have to come to this, but it may send a signal to all the latent vocations out there that the church means business. If you are willing to send all the seminarians abroad at the expense of the US seminary's future then my suggestion might be warranted.

Someone once wrote thta this seminary has many students from off-campus. This is good ,but if they can't be priests then it is a false head count. The "seminary" lost its purpose and function to the church. It no longer educates "seminarians." The seminary model is basically dead.

What else can the seminaries overseas offer?

Eddie

"Should the Byzantine Catholic seminary in the US be closed? Is this the subtle hint being implied?"

I don't think that was in anyone's wildest imaginations. Just the opposite, in fact. As the person who started this thread I didn't have any agenda. I'm not saying you thought there was an agenda like that, but someone could construe it that way. I had a simple observation that more seminarians are being trained in Europe than America, and yet we have a great need for priests, wouldn't it make sense to transfer the available priests to where there is a need? One person early in the thread threw in the response about talking to the European Bishop Babjack in Presov, who said he has too many priests and would love to send some to America--but no one in America has asked!

There would be great cultural differences for a young seminarian coming from Europe to America for his last year or so of seminary. That was also pointed out by a previous post in this thread. Some European seminarians even wound up not completeing their studies due to the experience. I would suggest coming to America was not the only reason they dropped out, but I'm sure the cutlural differences was a factor. But before the second World War we used to send our seminarians over to Europe for their training. As ElijahMarie suggested, why not do it again? All we are doing is reinstituting a practice that was going on for decades. We don't need to reinvent the wheel. It's been there all along!

There have been many on this forum who bemoan the lack of Church Slavonic in the liturgy. Myself included. Given the fact that the new RDL doesn't even have a word of Slavonic in it, there's a good reason to speculate that it won't be around for long. Unless something is done about it. Sending an American seminarian to Uzhorod would certainly take care of that problem and in a hurry! I wonder how many of our Byzantine Ruthenian priests could even do a DL in Slavonic if they needed to? Some of the older ones certainly could. But they are the ones in their eighties. I am thinking of one in particular--Father Anselm Orlavsky who serves DL in Wall, Pennsylvania. His DL is, according to a current church member I grew up with and I feel is very trustworthy, about seventy to eighty percent Slavonic. And the place is packed.

So sending seminarians to Europe would help in many ways. Having a cross cultural exchange of seminarians might even be a better idea. But it would have to be done carefully. Maybe an exchange of professors at the seminaries would help as well? There has been many a comment on this forum about the RDL and wether it is "authentic" to the Byzantine Ruthenian musical and liturgical tradition. Maybe having cantors from both countries together would solve that problem in a hurry as well! It would be mighty difficult for one cantor to tell the other cantors their translations are wrong--when that's the tongue they grew up speaking! And yes, it goes both ways. A Ukrainian seminarian learning English would have a great aid in a teacher from America. And an American seminarian learning from someone in Uzhorod or Mukacevo would certainly be learning from the source itself! Seems like a win-win situation for everyone--especially the people sitting in the pews. And don't we count for something?

One point I need to comment on--earlier in this thread it was stated that we don't really have a shortage of priests, we have a shortage of parishioners. It was stated that yes, the average age of the priests is getting up there. But the statistic was given that not many churches can boast of having one priest for every 100 to 200 parishioners. The math may be accurate, but I think it is misleading. How many of those priests have that many parishioners in ONE parish? And how many priests have to hold down two or three or more parishes, in order to make up the stated numbers? It is misleading to say we don't have enough parishioners. With a smaller parish having thirty to fifty people in one town, and other parish with sixty to eighty people in another town, and a third parish having fifty to sixty people in that town--with one priest driving 25 to 30 miles from one parish to another---that puts a whole new light on that statistic. And many parish priests can't just stay in their parishes and take care of souls--they must travel to the Eparchy for meetings, go to conferences, hold workshops, travel to three or four hospitals (each one an hour to two hours apart) to see the sick parishioners, etc. These priests are putting five thousand miles on their cars almost every month! But yet we say they have only 100 to 200 souls to care for. Not really!

As I read some of the later posts in this thread, it seems that some people might not have read the entire thread, from the beginning. Please do. Some of your questions might have been answered earlier.

Slava Na V'iki

Tim

Too afraid that the culture may be kept, (e.g. Rusyn, Slovak, Hungarian, Croatian, etc. Keeping the traditional Slavonic Liturgy instead of this nonsense Revised Divine Liturgy)?

Bear in mind Slavonic is not the tradition for many of us. It was all English by the time I came unto the picture (in my thirties)... Before that it was in Hungarian at my parish.

I too am in my 30's and in my chruch it was, and still is Rusyn. It is because of this tradition that I learned Rusyn and the traditions of my Rusyn heritage. I did not speak from birth, but learned because of the church.

You are correct that the Slavonic liturgy is not the tradition for many, but it is the tradition of our Byzantine (Greek) Catholic Church as a whole from the eparchies of Presov and Mukacevo (now in Uzhorod). That is why the Hungarians formed their own churchs, as well as the Croatian Zumeraci.

But what about the other Eastern Churches where people are not of that tradition, but join because of it? I know of folks in Arizona and New Mexico who are Hispanic and marry into the Byzantine Church and love the Slavonic liturgy?

Many Ukrainian Catholic Churches have ridne skoly to teach Ukrainian to Americans of Ukrainian and those that are not Ukrainian.

The Maronite Church uses Syriac as its liturgical language. Their books are even printed in Syriac. I know many folks that go to the Maronite church here in Pittsburgh. They are 2nd and 3rd generation Lebanese folks that preserve the liturgical language in addition to their Lebanese language.

All the Hungarian Byzantine churches that I know of have a deep sense of being Hungarian, and that is great. I just want the ability to keep my Slaveno-Rusyn culture as well.

What I see currently is what has happened to the Roman Rite. They have created such a mish-mash of cultures and traditions that many of the churches are striving and looking for their culture but cannot find any.

The Roman Catholic parish changed mainly because of the leadership and example of the pastor. He made Christ the focus of his life and the Eucharist the focus of his religion, which he kept and which he expected others to keep too. The mass was served reverently. Sin was preached against. The Eucharist and devotion to Mary were extolled. He held daily Mass and some extra devotions. He was kind and friendly but strong and firm too. The response was good: people from the surrounding area came to participate, and that parish became known as the "spiritual parish" in the area. It also produced two religious vocations under that priest's pastorship. So, one good priest changed a ho-hum parish into a spiritual dynamo by faith, prayer and example. Sadly, that parish was recently shut down because of the priest shortage in the Roman Catholic Church, and the pastor was retired due to his age (even though he was still willing and able tos erve). To me and others, it seemed like killing the goose that layed the golden egg.

The Orthodox parish changed because of the people deciding they had to change or they would die out as a parish. The parish began as an ethnic parish in an ethnic neighborhood about 80 years ago. Over time, the ethnicity in question moved away and / or assimilated. Then not many people came for services, and they were often old or becoming old. They knew they would die out as a parish in another generation's time if they didn't do something different. Their bishop agreed. Fortunately, they had money. They had profitably run bingo for years; and they had some serious cash in the bank. And, they had faith. And, they had a clear goal --grow!-- and the willingness to change and the determination to make it happen. They were also blessed with an enthusiastic priest who shared their vision. So, they bought some land in an area that is growing in population and which is likely to keep growing for the next generation at least. They dropped their ethnic moniker, and they just describe themselves as Orthodox (OCA). So, they built a new temple; held traditional services; quit bingo; started holding festivals; did outreach in a 45 mile radius; and genuinely welcomed anyone interested. It worked. Financially, they are in the black; demographically, they have a good number of people in a good mix of age ranges: old, middle aged and young. And yes, there are children there now; thanks be to God.

So, it can be done. It requires deep faith, good leadership, wise stewardship, willingness to change, enthusiastic determination, and a practical plan. Yes, that's a tall order; but when it is met, amazing things can happen.


-- John

John, Those are wonderful stories. Thank you for sharing in some of the details. It seems that straight faith and outreach are two potent ingredients. The willingness to bring Christ to the people (and new people) is powerful and inspiring. And two seminarians!?!?!?! Why that is almost half a seminary right there! Surely they were running on Pentecostal fire that gives better mileage.

It would certainly be a wonderful thing to share more stories like these. I should start another thread/topic for that.

Eddie

God granted me the opportunity in June to visit the village of my paternal grandparents in Slovakia and to look for relatives.

Most of the parishes use Slovak for the Divine Liturgy. An exception is the parish of Litmanova. I was handicapped because I don't speak Slovak but I had the impression that they use Slavonic because this section was part of Poland until the end of World War II; I think the language of the people was not Slovak but Rusyn.

I visited the seminary at Presov and was told by a fifth year seminarian that when he started there were 99 students; now the numbers are in the fifties. The surge which came after the end of Communism is tapering off, but there are still good numbers. Most of the newly ordained priests are married. My numbers may be off slightly but of the last class of approx 12; 2 or three were celibate. He also told me that the eparchy of Mukachevo is just getting on its feet with a new bishop; they had some serious problems which I will not discuss.

The pani of the priest in Slovinky would like to come to America; the priest would not. After staying there in the village a week I think his opinion is correct. His homeland is conducive to raising a faith-filled family; the USA is not. They have 3 children, the oldest about six. I concelebrated (as deacon) with him on the 10th anniversary of his ordination. The people there may not sing melodiously but the sing with their hearts. Even when the pastor is not there about 20 parishioners gather at 530 p.m. to chant and you can hear them from outside the Church.

Of the three priests that I met only one spoke a bit of English; none were over 35. In another generation they may mostly speak English, but not yet.

Father Deacon Paul

Thanks for sharing that wonderful story about your trip...

Alice

Thanks, Alice.

I will start a thread on the Town Hall forum about my experience and impressions. All are invited to ask questions and I'll do my best to answer.

Fr Deacon Paul

Actually, it was one woman who is headed to a monastery and one man who is headed to a seminary. But, God willing, it will all come to pass . . .


-- John

I don't know if we have any forum participants who were at BCS back in the glory days when they were packed to the rafters who can tell us about it...

But to see it nowadays with a handfull of students knocking around a big empty building about 10x bigger than what they need or can use... It is more than a little demoralizing to walk the halls and wonder what it would have been like versus what it is now...

IMHO, the BCS dropped the ball in the field of accredidation. It only recently has become an accredited school. For years the thinking of the Old Guard was "If they want fancy degrees, let them study for something besides the priesthood."

The vibrancy of the seminary as an institution might be far different from the bleak picture of today if accreditation and endowment had been focused upon decades ago. Really it could have grown into an Eastern Theological force in the (Latin & Eastern) Catholic & Orthodox communities of this hemisphere.

Is it too late to change all this and turn things around? Well nothing is impossible with God... And having paid-off (I would suspect) bricks & mortar is a big plus.

However distasteful it may be to some, perhaps the answer would be to look to the broader Church - especially the Latins - and develop a bi-ritual program that could serve a greater number of men and women looking to either be trained as priests, deacons, catechists, or just with a desire to learn theology.

However unchic it is to even suggest this - the Latins, for all our turbulent and tumultuous relations - have served us over the years with many bi-ritual priests and seminaries where many of our men have studied. Maybe it is time we could offer them something.

I am not sure if there would be an interest in developing a seminary program that could serve Latins as well, that is rooted in Eastern thinking. Perhaps as an affiliate of a Latin seminary or a "satelite" program where students go for a one year immersion program or to learn more on Eastern Theology and Litrugy. Certainly to make more latin priests familiar with our traditions and theology would be a great service to the greater church and a useful starting point for helping the Church to breath with both lungs.

I also can think of a lot of places - like in parts of Africa & Asia - where there are not a lot of Eastern Catholics, it would be of tremendous value for seminairans and priests to spend a year learning about Eatern Christianity in a living Eastern Catholic setting.

Not a concrete proposal per se, but just some ideas I am floating. Even at this point in our history where our numbers have become much diminished, maybe the right question to ask in the context of seminarians from other lands, how can we serve THEM.

If we are generous when it is difficult, we will reap the rewards.

That is basically how the Byzantine Catholic operates now, being served by more Bi-Ritual Latin priests that homegrown Byzantine Catholic priests.

Ungcsertezs

I don't know that you are addressing what I suggested. "That is how they operate now" I was suggesting that we seek to use our time talent and treasure to share with the Latins what we have to offer...

Of course, one could easily argue that in allowing them to be bi-ritual, the many blessings are manifest.

Problematic with bi-ritual priests, however, is that however pious, well intentioned and good they may be, our ritual traditions are not easy to do well when done infrequently.

We could "grow our own" if we were of a mind to do so.

Are we?