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Eastern - Rite Anglicans and Old Catholics?

Posted By: asianpilgrim

Eastern - Rite Anglicans and Old Catholics? - 11/19/08 08:26 AM

Are there Eastern-Rite Anglicans and Old Catholics?

The Mar Thomas are in communion with the Anglicans, but they are not "Anglicans" really, are they? (And I hear that their orders are held by Rome as valid)
Posted By: Fr Serge Keleher

Re: Eastern - Rite Anglicans and Old Catholics? - 11/19/08 10:28 AM

There are one or two ecclesial communities derived from the Mar Thoma Christians who are in communion with the Anglicans (or were; I don't know what may have happened recently) and I suppose could be called "Eastern-Rite Anglicans", though I've not heard the phrase used in that context. A few Anglican clergy in England seem to have been given "faculties" by these ecclesial communities to offer their Liturgy.

Fr. Serge
Posted By: Collin Nunis

Re: Eastern - Rite Anglicans and Old Catholics? - 11/19/08 03:35 PM

Father bless!

But again Father, the title "Mar Thoma Christians" refers also to Syro-Malankara Catholics/Orthodox, and Syro-Malabar Catholics. This church that we're referring to is known as the Mar Thoma Church and it is the only one at present moment, in communion with the Anglicans. Their theology is Reformed (and have adopted more contemporary Protestant ideas over the years) while maintaining a Syriac-based liturgy. Like the Anglicans, theology on the Eucharist can differ but so far, in Malaysia, the thelogy of the Eucharist is Calvinist-leaning.
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic

Re: Eastern - Rite Anglicans and Old Catholics? - 11/19/08 03:40 PM

Bless Father Archimandrite!

First of all, a Happy Gregorian Calendar feast of Sts Barlaam and Joasaph to you! That brings back memories for me!

There is a group of Anglicans who apparently feel that the Byzantine tradition is also their own due to the influence of St Theodore, Archbishop of Canterbury, who was Greek.

I will see if I can look up more about them.

Kissing your right hand, I again implore your blessing,

Alex
Posted By: Fr Serge Keleher

Re: Eastern - Rite Anglicans and Old Catholics? - 11/19/08 07:14 PM

Well, I wrote "derived from the Mar Thoma Christians", which implies that they are not the totality of Mar Thoma Christians.

Fr. Serge
Posted By: Fr Serge Keleher

Re: Eastern - Rite Anglicans and Old Catholics? - 11/19/08 07:17 PM

Both the Gregorian Calendar and Barlaam & Joasaph are on the dubious list.

I seem to remember that back in the nineteen-fifties there were one or two parishes somewhere in the US north-east which had been Eastern Orthodox but somehow joined the local Episcopal diocese. Don't know where to look for further information on it.

Fr. Serge
Posted By: AMM

Re: Eastern - Rite Anglicans and Old Catholics? - 12/22/08 03:49 PM

http://www.saintgregorys.org/
Posted By: Our Lady's slave

Re: Eastern - Rite Anglicans and Old Catholics? - 12/22/08 04:20 PM

It's running in my mind that we have discussed this particular Group in the past .

I don't think they came from Orthodoxy but they are certainly a little strange in some of their practices - the dancing 'icons' and their choice of Saints for them.

Not my cup of tea frown
Posted By: The young fogey

Re: Eastern - Rite Anglicans and Old Catholics? - 12/22/08 08:04 PM

No, St Gregory of Nyssa Episcopal Church didn't come from Orthodoxy or even from the vagantes where such eclecticism is common; they've always been Episcopalians and experimental, which in this case means appropriating bibs and bobs of Orthodox and other Eastern liturgies that they like.

They're obviously not in communion with the catholic churches and wrong about some things - in short eccentric Protestants - but I've never hated them like I'm expected to! They're talented and mean well.

The Mar Thoma Church (protestantised breakaway from the Malankara Church during British rule in India) is invited to Lambeth and in communion with but not counted as literally part of the Anglican Communion. Which functionally really means 'Eastern-rite Anglicans', the only such in the world really.

The late Canon Edward West at New York's Cathedral Church of St John the Divine, though he liberalised along with the Episcopal Church in his last years, was a longtime friend of the Serbian Orthodox in that city, helping them get their cathedral, St Sava's, a redundant Episcopal building. He used to suit up and do the Byzantine Liturgy in a side chapel at St John the Divine not to pass himself off as Orthodox but more as a tribute and for his own edification.
Posted By: Hieromonk Ambrose

Re: Eastern - Rite Anglicans and Old Catholics? - 12/22/08 08:16 PM

Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
There is a group of Anglicans who apparently feel that the Byzantine tradition is also their own due to the influence of St Theodore, Archbishop of Canterbury, who was Greek.

Is this the British Orthodox Church which is part of the Miaphysite tradition and comprises a diocese of the Coptic Orthodox Church?

http://www.britishorthodox.org/
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic

Re: Eastern - Rite Anglicans and Old Catholics? - 12/22/08 08:53 PM

Bless, Father Hieromonk!

The British Orthodox are "their own people" but certainly the presence of St Theodore of Canterbury and the Greek tradition within the "Anglicana Ecclesia" is appropriated by them.

There has always been an "Eastern Rite" tendency in Anglicans with their appreciation of their "rood screens" and the fact that Anglican cathedrals and churches, from the beginning when they were united with the undivided Church, were awash in brightly painted icons and the like. This would also explain the 19th century talks with Russian Orthodoxy, as you know, that resulted in specific ways to make the Anglican heritage of the post-Reformation era into an acceptable rite of Orthodoxy.

However, other explanations for Anglican/Old Catholic links with Orthodoxy include their desire to possess full Orders and Sacraments (via economia) from Orthodoxy while maintaining themselves as independent Western ecclesial communities.

Alex

Posted By: Our Lady's slave

Re: Eastern - Rite Anglicans and Old Catholics? - 12/22/08 09:06 PM

I have very recently met a member of that Site - http://www.britishorthodox.org/

And he certainly describes himself as a Copt - he knows I am UGCC
Posted By: SERA

Re: Eastern - Rite Anglicans and Old Catholics? - 04/13/13 02:41 PM

Originally Posted by asianpilgrim
Are there Eastern-Rite Anglicans and Old Catholics?

The Mar Thomas are in communion with the Anglicans, but they are not "Anglicans" really, are they? (And I hear that their orders are held by Rome as valid)


We've noticed on this forum and several others a great deal of questioning and buzz around the idea of Eastern Rite Anglicans. In response to this we are planning the launch of the Society for Eastern Rite Anglicanism (SERA).

The URL for our website is: http://www.EasternAnglicanism.org
On the website you can sign up for our email list- to get notification of the website launch and you can donate towards our indiegogo campaign to help us found as nonprofit.

We have a Facebook page: https://www.facebook.com/groups/EasternAnglicanism/
There's a lively discussion going on there about SERA

Several people have also blogged about this:
http://mysticpathways.blogspot.com/2013/04/eastern-rite-anglican-communion.html
http://haligweorc.wordpress.com/2013/04/08/eastern-anglicanism/
http://www.fatherchristopher.org/?p=476

Hopefully this society will gather people with similar interest of Eastern Rite Anglicanism to help explore the idea further and share resources and ideas.

-SERA
Posted By: Roman Interloper

Re: Eastern - Rite Anglicans and Old Catholics? - 04/16/13 10:32 AM

Some of the more interesting "dancing saints" I noticed were William Shakespeare, Lady Godiva, Thurgood Marshall, Dwight D. Eisenhower, Mahatma Gandhi, Queen Lilioukalani of Hawaii...and a bear (Smokey, perhaps?).

I must say I'm baffled by the very concept of "Eastern Rite Anglicanism". The term seems to makes no sense whatsoever.
Posted By: IAlmisry

Re: Eastern - Rite Anglicans and Old Catholics? - 04/16/13 10:57 AM

Originally Posted by Roman Interloper
Some of the more interesting "dancing saints" I noticed were William Shakespeare, Lady Godiva, Thurgood Marshall, Dwight D. Eisenhower, Mahatma Gandhi, Queen Lilioukalani of Hawaii...and a bear (Smokey, perhaps?).

I must say I'm baffled by the very concept of "Eastern Rite Anglicanism". The term seems to makes no sense whatsoever.

Makes perfect sense, if you buy Anglicanism in the first place. In the case of the Indian church, it isn't much different from the sui juris churches of Vatican II.

There has been a Byzantine rite Lutheran church for some time (since at least 1933). Here is their version of the DL of St. John:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/saintsophiaseminary/liturgy.html
Posted By: Roman Interloper

Re: Eastern - Rite Anglicans and Old Catholics? - 04/16/13 12:09 PM

A Church of England outside of England makes no apparent sense, except insofar as it followed the expanding British Empire. Even then, it's illogical. A Church of England of the East, however, makes no sense whatsoever. It's like having, say, a "Church of England of Scandinavia".

Eastern Churches in communion with the Patriarch of Rome, however, make perfect sense. That was once universally the case, of course. I ask one to recall a time before, say, the year 1054.
Posted By: Nelson Chase

Re: Eastern - Rite Anglicans and Old Catholics? - 04/16/13 01:25 PM

Quote
Hopefully this society will gather people with similar interest of Eastern Rite Anglicanism to help explore the idea further and share resources and ideas.


I think, respectfully, that Anglicans should stick to their own Anglican liturgy, which when done well is beautiful.

The Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Churches are Churches that follow the various eastern rites. There is no historical (except for the minority of protestant Mar Thoma Christians) Eastern Church in communion with Anglicanism.

An "Eastern-rite" Anglican would be, I suppose, a parish (with no historical connection to the Christian East) adopting a liturgy and spirituality (not to mention a theology) that is not its own and not in communion with the historical Church that follow that liturgical tradition.

(I'm not a fan of Western-rite Orthodoxy for much of the same reason)

Now if an actual Eastern Orthodox or Eastern Catholic Church were to enter Communion with the Anglican Communion (highly un-likely given the current state of the Anglican Communion) then I suppose that particular Church could be an "Eastern Anglican Church" but at this time there is no such thing.


Posted By: Nelson Chase

Re: Eastern - Rite Anglicans and Old Catholics? - 04/16/13 01:30 PM

Quote
Hopefully this society will gather people with similar interest of Eastern Rite Anglicanism to help explore the idea further and share resources and ideas.


I think a better endevor is to fully follow traditional Anglicanism and work for reunion of the Churches. There already is a wonderful Anglican-Orthodox orginzation called the Fellowship of St. Alban & St. Sergius .
Posted By: IAlmisry

Re: Eastern - Rite Anglicans and Old Catholics? - 04/16/13 01:35 PM

Originally Posted by Roman Interloper
A Church of England outside of England makes no apparent sense, except insofar as it followed the expanding British Empire. Even then, it's illogical. A Church of England of the East, however, makes no sense whatsoever. It's like having, say, a "Church of England of Scandinavia".

Eastern Churches in communion with the Patriarch of Rome, however, make perfect sense. That was once universally the case, of course. I ask one to recall a time before, say, the year 1054.

No, the Patriarch of Rome was in communion with the Eastern Churches. What you describe presupposes the Churches of the East resembled the Latin Patriarchate of Jerusalem-btw, what sense does that make? The Latin Patriarchs of Constantinople, Alexandria and Antioch? The Latin ordinary of Kiev?

The Church of Rome outside of Rome makes as much apparent sense as the Church of England in the British Empire/Commonwealth. And pretty much resembles the mode of expansion-how did it expand into Latin America to produce your present supreme pontiff?

As for the "Church of England of Scandinavia" that almost happened: the Lutheran Church of Sweden (and Finland) retained its claims to apostolic succession like the Anglicans, and there were attempts at union during their Reformations.

Btw, the Byzantine Lutheran church was formed in Polish occupied Galicia between the wars.
Posted By: IAlmisry

Re: Eastern - Rite Anglicans and Old Catholics? - 04/16/13 01:46 PM

Originally Posted by Nelson Chase
Quote
Hopefully this society will gather people with similar interest of Eastern Rite Anglicanism to help explore the idea further and share resources and ideas.


I think, respectfully, that Anglicans should stick to their own Anglican liturgy, which when done well is beautiful.

The Eastern Orthodox and Eastern Catholic Churches are Churches that follow the various eastern rites. There is no historical (except for the minority of protestant Mar Thoma Christians) Eastern Church in communion with Anglicanism.

An "Eastern-rite" Anglican would be, I suppose, a parish (with no historical connection to the Christian East) adopting a liturgy and spirituality (not to mention a theology) that is not its own and not in communion with the historical Church that follow that liturgical tradition.

(I'm not a fan of Western-rite Orthodoxy for much of the same reason)

Now if an actual Eastern Orthodox or Eastern Catholic Church were to enter Communion with the Anglican Communion (highly un-likely given the current state of the Anglican Communion) then I suppose that particular Church could be an "Eastern Anglican Church" but at this time there is no such thing.

Sure there is: the Mar Thoma Syrian Church
http://marthoma.in/
is in full communion with the Anglicans.

Its liturgy etc. was brought into full conformity with Protestant principles:
Quote
Icons, pictures, statues, and drawings of saints were removed from homes, churches, and places of worship.
All prayers for the dead and to the Blessed Virgin Mary and the Saints were omitted.
Insisted that Sunday services are to be held in a very reverent and spiritual way. During that time reading and expounding Scriptures is to be done.
Conducted Worship services including Holy Communion in the mother tongue, Malayalam.
Holy Communion was not celebrated when there were none to receive.
Mandated that Communion under both kinds should be distributed separately.
Considered the practice of praying for the dead and of doing obeisance at their graves with lighted candles as abhorrent.
Intercession of saints and prayers for the dead were discarded.
Auricular confession was discontinued.
Believed that those who come for confession should ask for forgiveness with fasting and prayer, instead of offering oil, incense and candles.
Insisted that Bishops should ordain only candidates who have been examined by them and the malpans (Syriac professors).
Repudiated the custom of smearing charcoal on the forehead on Ash Wednesday.
‘’Doctrines upheld’’ :
The Church unequivocally hold the doctrine of the Trinity as interpreted by the creed of Nicea, Constantinople and Ephesus.
The Church is neither Nestorian nor Monophysite.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malank...sing_of_the_Church_.E2.80.93_Reformation

(I'm a big fan of Western-rite Orthodoxy for much of the same reason)
Posted By: IAlmisry

Re: Eastern - Rite Anglicans and Old Catholics? - 04/16/13 01:47 PM

Originally Posted by Nelson Chase
Quote
Hopefully this society will gather people with similar interest of Eastern Rite Anglicanism to help explore the idea further and share resources and ideas.


I think a better endevor is to fully follow traditional Anglicanism and work for reunion of the Churches. There already is a wonderful Anglican-Orthodox orginzation called the Fellowship of St. Alban & St. Sergius .

You mean work for reunion of the traditional Anglican churches?
Posted By: Nelson Chase

Re: Eastern - Rite Anglicans and Old Catholics? - 04/16/13 03:09 PM

Quote
You mean work for reunion of the traditional Anglican churches?


Sadly, yes the Anglican churches are very much divided. Though, I was suggesting that Anglicans live their tradition traditionally and then work for the reunion of their church with the Orthodox/Catholic Church.
Posted By: eastwardlean?

Re: Eastern - Rite Anglicans and Old Catholics? - 04/16/13 03:49 PM

Originally Posted by Roman Interloper

Eastern Churches in communion with the Patriarch of Rome, however, make perfect sense. That was once universally the case, of course. I ask one to recall a time before, say, the year 1054.


While I also think that an Eastern rite Anglicanism doesn't make lots of sense, I'm not sure this particular argument is compelling. After all, communion once existed not only between the Eastern churches and the Popes of Rome, but also between those Eastern churches and the other churches of the West, including the English church and the Archbishops of Canterbury.
Posted By: eastwardlean?

Re: Eastern - Rite Anglicans and Old Catholics? - 04/16/13 04:52 PM

Originally Posted by IAlmisry

No, the Patriarch of Rome was in communion with the Eastern Churches. What you describe presupposes the Churches of the East resembled the Latin Patriarchate of Jerusalem-btw, what sense does that make? The Latin Patriarchs of Constantinople, Alexandria and Antioch? The Latin ordinary of Kiev?

The Church of Rome outside of Rome makes as much apparent sense as the Church of England in the British Empire/Commonwealth. And pretty much resembles the mode of expansion-how did it expand into Latin America to produce your present supreme pontiff?



IAlmisry, I think there are a couple of important issues that your post raises. First, I doubt there are many here who would defend the move to replace the historic patriarchates by erecting Latin ones. I certainly don't.

But it seems to me that you introduce their example to make a different point--namely, that those patriarchates created by Westerners to replace the historic ones reflected (or enacted) a very different understanding of what patriarchs and patriarchates really were. That seems a fair point. But again, it seems to me that a great many of the people here would probably not really disagree with you.

When you raise the issue of the Western-Roman evangelization of the Americas, I think you also touch on something very important. People often tend to equate the Western Catholic church with the Roman patriarchate. It isn't really clear to me that this should really be the case. I think it is telling of the decline of synodal governance and the trajectory of centralization within the communion. However, if I can agree about all of that, I think that I can also fairly challenge you about your constant return to Pastor Aeternus and Vatican I, as if the Catholic Church--and even the Popes themselves--hasn't realized the need to correct the 'unbalanced' picture and undertaken an effort to restore and strengthen the structures for collegial governance within the church. If your point is just simply that we aren't there yet, again I agree. And I imagine that many others would.


Posted By: Roman Interloper

Re: Eastern - Rite Anglicans and Old Catholics? - 04/19/13 04:26 PM

Originally Posted by IAlmisry
No, the Patriarch of Rome was in communion with the Eastern Churches.


I believe it would stand to reason, in that case, that the Eastern Churches were in communion with him. Yes? Or am I missing some unknown subtlety of the English language whereby one of these ideas does not suppose the other?

quote]What you describe presupposes the Churches of the East resembled the Latin Patriarchate of Jerusalem-btw, what sense does that make? The Latin Patriarchs of Constantinople, Alexandria and Antioch? The Latin ordinary of Kiev? [/quote]

None, if you ask me. What has that got to do with the price of eggs, however? Have I advocated a defense of Latin counter-patriarchates? I don't believe so.

Quote
The Church of Rome outside of Rome makes as much apparent sense as the Church of England in the British Empire/Commonwealth. And pretty much resembles the mode of expansion-how did it expand into Latin America to produce your present supreme pontiff?


The Catholic Church is not a national Church confined to a certain country or culture. There is no legitimate comparison to be made. The Church of England makes no claim to be the Catholic Church; it claims, on the other hand, to be that part of the Catholic Church that subsists within England (thus its name). My Church is not known as the Church of Rome. The Church of Rome is simply the Diocese of Rome. My Church is known as the Catholic Church. It is that Church, not the Church of Rome, to which I refer.

Posted By: IAlmisry

Re: Eastern - Rite Anglicans and Old Catholics? - 04/19/13 10:18 PM

Originally Posted by Roman Interloper
Originally Posted by IAlmisry
No, the Patriarch of Rome was in communion with the Eastern Churches.


I believe it would stand to reason, in that case, that the Eastern Churches were in communion with him. Yes?

Pastor Aeternus has his Eastern Patriarchs request communion with him:
Quote

Codex Canonum Ecclesiarum Orientalis Canon 76

1. By means of a synodal letter, the synod of bishops of the patriarchal Church notifies the Roman Pontiff as soon as possible about the canonical conduct of the election and enthronement and that the new patriarch made a profession of faith and the promise to exercise his office with fidelity in the presence of the synod according to the approved formulas. Synodal letters that an election took place are also to be sent to the patriarchs of the other Eastern Churches.
2. The new patriarch must as soon as possible request ecclesiastical communion from the Roman Pontiff by means of a letter signed in his own hand.

Of course, as usually, the Vatican has added its own twist to an ancient institution to interject "Roman" into "One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic": in this case, the Koinonika and Eirenika, the letters of communion every primate sent to his peers to demonstrate his profession of the Orthodox Faith and introduction to their communion. Even the archbishops of Rome-unlike the Vatican-sent these letters "request[ing] ecclesiastical communion from" "the patriarchs of the other Eastern Churches"-the Pope of Rome was dropped in 1009 when Pope Sergius sent his letters and perhaps (it is not certain) contained the filioque in it. Hence he was not in communion with them after that date, a fact that Pope Leo IX sent Card. Humberto to New Rome with the demand to reinsert his name and commune with him.

It is like the Vatican ruling that an Ecumenical Council cannot be held without him, and if the "supreme pontiff" dies during a Council (as happened with its Vatican II), the Council must stop and be reconvened by his successor. The Ecumenical Councils knew of no such rule: the Sixth Ecumenical Council continued on although Pope St. Agatho died two months after it opened and his successor was not consecrated until almost a year after the near year long Council closed.

Originally Posted by Roman Interloper
Or am I missing some unknown subtlety of the English language whereby one of these ideas does not suppose the other?
Not just in English, but more importantly, I am not missing any subtlety that can be misconstrued into a proof for non-facts.

Originally Posted by Roman Interloper
Originally Posted by IAlmisry
What you describe presupposes the Churches of the East resembled the Latin Patriarchate of Jerusalem-btw, what sense does that make? The Latin Patriarchs of Constantinople, Alexandria and Antioch? The Latin ordinary of Kiev?

None, if you ask me. What has that got to do with the price of eggs, however? Have I advocated a defense of Latin counter-patriarchates? I don't believe so.

Originally Posted by Roman Interloper
A Church of England outside of England makes no apparent sense, except insofar as it followed the expanding British Empire. Even then, it's illogical. A Church of England of the East, however, makes no sense whatsoever. It's like having, say, a "Church of England of Scandinavia".

Eastern Churches in communion with the Patriarch of Rome, however, make perfect sense. That was once universally the case, of course. I ask one to recall a time before, say, the year 1054.

You don't see any sense in the spread of Anglican/Episcopalian churches across the globe, but somehow Latin ordinaries sent by the Vatican across the globe make sense. confused

All those "Eastern Churches in communion with the Patriarch of Rome" that you speak of are, with the sole exception of the Maronites (who alone constituted the Monothelite church), are ALL "counter-patriarchates," spawned from Latin inspired schisms in their Mother Churches (which, except for Alexandria, wasn't Rome). In Jerusalem, it's not even a counter-patriarchate. Just Latin.

Originally Posted by Roman Interloper
Originally Posted by IAlmisry
he Church of Rome outside of Rome makes as much apparent sense as the Church of England in the British Empire/Commonwealth. And pretty much resembles the mode of expansion-how did it expand into Latin America to produce your present supreme pontiff?

The Catholic Church is not a national Church confined to a certain country or culture. There is no legitimate comparison to be made.
Yes, that was the excuse given for dropping the title "Patriarch of the West," but no matter how big the parish, it still leaves you parochial: insisting on one language (up until recently) anywhere in the world. Latin is a language of a nation, confined to a certain culture. And it is only one sign of the Vatican's confines in a particular-sui juris?-culture.

Originally Posted by Roman Interloper
The Church of England makes no claim to be the Catholic Church; it claims, on the other hand, to be that part of the Catholic Church that subsists within England (thus its name).
Hence the Protestant Episcopal Church of the United States that "subsists" in the USA, the Scottish Episcopal Church "subsists" in Scotland, the Church of Ireland "subsists" in Ireland, the Episcopal Church in Jerusalem and the Middle East "subsists" in the Middle East, the Mar Thoma Syrian Church subsists in South India, etc.

Your point?

Originally Posted by Roman Interloper
My Church is not known as the Church of Rome.

LOL. That is exactly what many know it as.

Originally Posted by Roman Interloper
The Church of Rome is simply the Diocese of Rome.

So Pope Francis could have gone back to Buenos Aires, and ruled as supreme pontiff from there, no?

Originally Posted by Roman Interloper
My Church is known as the Catholic Church.

You call it that (as do many). You don't speak for all of us. Btw, in many languages like Arabic, Slavonic, Romanian etc. the word that means "Catholic"=Vatican differs from the word used in "One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Originally Posted by Roman Interloper

It is that Church, not the Church of Rome, to which I refer.
Pastor Aeternus refers to the Church of Rome and "the Roman pontiff."
Posted By: Nelson Chase

Re: Eastern - Rite Anglicans and Old Catholics? - 04/19/13 11:59 PM

Quote
You don't see any sense in the spread of Anglican/Episcopalian churches across the globe, but somehow Latin ordinaries sent by the Vatican across the globe make sense.


And Orthodox ordinaries in Western Catholic lands is different than a Latin Ordinary is Russia, how?
Posted By: Nelson Chase

Re: Eastern - Rite Anglicans and Old Catholics? - 04/20/13 12:02 AM

Quote
All those "Eastern Churches in communion with the Patriarch of Rome" that you speak of are, with the sole exception of the Maronites (who alone constituted the Monothelite church), are ALL "counter-patriarchates," spawned from Latin inspired schisms in their Mother Churches (which, except for Alexandria, wasn't Rome). In Jerusalem, it's not even a counter-patriarchate. Just Latin.


I think this is an over simplified, not completely honest or historically correct statement about the existence and reunion of Eastern Orthodox Christians with the Church of Rome after the Council of Florence.
Posted By: IAlmisry

Re: Eastern - Rite Anglicans and Old Catholics? - 04/20/13 01:19 AM

Originally Posted by Nelson Chase
Quote
You don't see any sense in the spread of Anglican/Episcopalian churches across the globe, but somehow Latin ordinaries sent by the Vatican across the globe make sense.


And Orthodox ordinaries in Western Catholic lands is different than a Latin Ordinary is Russia, how?

I'm not the one complaining about the Anglicans (at least not here, on this point, from this angle).

On the one hand, outside of Italy, your previous Patriarch of the West has mooted your question: the Patriarch of the West-or at least the claimant in question-has repudiated the title and "abolished" the Patriarchate. Non-existent Patriarchs and defunct Patriarchs have no jurisdiction. Orthodox "ordinaries" (not an Orthodox term) can go anywhere in that vacuum.

How is it different? The Orthodox have only recently done it. The Vatican has been at it for almost a millenium. In fact, the Vatican has thought of nothing of installing counter-patriarchates to expel the legitimate ones, and when it can't dislodge them, it perpetuates its pretenders in exile, ready to retry (e.g. its present patriarchate of Jerusalem-an ancient autocephalous Church that doesn't merit even sui juris status-or even Eastern): it was even so important that when the three "fonts of unity" battled it out in the Great Western Schism, they not only held three separate college of cardinals, curias, etc. they had three different sets of "patriarchs of the Eastern Sees" living in "exile" in Rome.

In the case of Russia, the Vatican has been doing this at least from 1320. I think that the first Orthodox bishop "Western Catholic lands" happened only in 1834 (Warsaw). Over a half century earlier, the Russian Empress Catherine on her own initiative had already erected a Latin bishoprick for the Vatican in her own domain (Mohilev 1772: with a little irony, the see of the last Orthodox bishop in the Commonwealth, with the first partition it left the Orthodox in the Commonwealth for the first time without a resident hierarchy).

The Sacred Canons penalize bishops interfering in dioceses not theirs (e.g. Canon 8 of Ephesus): the Vatican has continually incurred such penalties that moot your question.

I know that your supreme pontiff thinks himself above the
Sacred Canons-or at least his predecessors did-but we know better.
Posted By: IAlmisry

Re: Eastern - Rite Anglicans and Old Catholics? - 04/20/13 01:27 AM

Originally Posted by Nelson Chase
Quote
All those "Eastern Churches in communion with the Patriarch of Rome" that you speak of are, with the sole exception of the Maronites (who alone constituted the Monothelite church), are ALL "counter-patriarchates," spawned from Latin inspired schisms in their Mother Churches (which, except for Alexandria, wasn't Rome). In Jerusalem, it's not even a counter-patriarchate. Just Latin.


I think this is an over simplified, not completely honest or historically correct statement about the existence and reunion of Eastern Orthodox Christians with the Church of Rome after the Council of Florence.

Not over, not less than complete, or inaccurate in the least. For one thing, the Vatican's Crusader's expelled the Patriarchs of Constantinople, Antioch and Jerusalem (they didn't succeed in Alexandria, but not from lack of trying) and set up their own, long before Florence-itself another example of the Caesaropapism that we Orthodox are condemned for.
Posted By: Nelson Chase

Re: Eastern - Rite Anglicans and Old Catholics? - 04/20/13 04:50 PM

Your claim was that

Quote
All those "Eastern Churches in communion with the Patriarch of Rome" that you speak of are, with the sole exception of the Maronites (who alone constituted the Monothelite church), are ALL "counter-patriarchates," spawned from Latin inspired schisms in their Mother Churches (which, except for Alexandria, wasn't Rome)



The Eastern Catholic Churches are not products of the Crusading periods, when other "patriarchs" were set up with Latin bishops instead of Eastern ones. (Which was your claim, or at least that is what it seemed your were claiming was as quoted above)

The current Eastern Catholic Churches came about, as you know, after the Council of Florence with various reunion synods. (Each with its own complex history)
Posted By: IAlmisry

Re: Eastern - Rite Anglicans and Old Catholics? - 04/21/13 12:58 AM

Originally Posted by Nelson Chase
Your claim was that

Quote
All those "Eastern Churches in communion with the Patriarch of Rome" that you speak of are, with the sole exception of the Maronites (who alone constituted the Monothelite church), are ALL "counter-patriarchates," spawned from Latin inspired schisms in their Mother Churches (which, except for Alexandria, wasn't Rome)



The Eastern Catholic Churches are not products of the Crusading periods, when other "patriarchs" were set up with Latin bishops instead of Eastern ones. (Which was your claim, or at least that is what it seemed your were claiming was as quoted above)

The current Eastern Catholic Churches came about, as you know, after the Council of Florence with various reunion synods. (Each with its own complex history)

I am aware that the "sui juris" churches do not come out (at least not directly) from the Crusader patriarchates, but they are indeed products of it (including the effect of the Northern Crusades in the events at Brest).

Ever since they were established, we have had Latin running about the neighborhood, sowing dissention. For example:
Quote
This openness encouraged many Catholic religious communities, particularly the Jesuits and the Franciscans, to work among the Melkites throughout the eastern Mediterranean. Their schools in Aleppo, Beirut and Damascus lifted people’s educational levels and strengthened their Catholic sentiments. But, the erection of parishes polarized the Melkites of Antioch into Catholic and Orthodox parties. The division of the Melkites into Orthodox and Catholic camps resulted in a de facto schism in the patriarchate in 1724, when rival patriarchs consolidated communities and parishes sympathetic to their respective causes.

http://www.cnewa.org/default.aspx?ID=3608&pagetypeID=4&sitecode=hq&pageno=4
The Franciscan presence dates from the Crusades: when the Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem and Antioch retreated with the rest of the Crusaders to Cyprus (where the Crusaders utterly suppressed the Apostolic Church of Cyprus) they did not leave Syria as they found it:
Quote
In the thirteenth century, however, when it was at its height, the Latin Patriarchate of Antioch had under its jurisdiction Laodicea, Gabala, Antaradus or Tortosa, Tripoli, Biblos, Seleucia, Tarsus, Corycos, Mamistra, Edessa, Apamea, Balanea, Artesia, Albaria, Larissa, Mariames, Hierapolis, Cyr, Nicosia, Paphos, Famagusta, and Limasol (see Le Quien, "Oriens Christianus", III, 1165-1232). During these two centuries, the presence of so many Catholic bishops, clergy, and lay people in Palestine and Syria was productive of good Catholic missionary results, as, owing precisely to the contact of the Latins with the various Oriental Schismatic Churches of the Near East, a large number of Greeks, Nestorians, Jacobite Syrians, and Monophysite Armenians, not infrequently led by their own bishops and clergy, embraced the Catholic Faith.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14399a.htm
i.e, submitted to the Latin Patriarchs. In that context the Franciscans province of Syria was formed, backed by the Crusader Kingdom of Cyprus, where the Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem remained with the Seat of the Franciscan Provintial (while suppressing the Apostolic Archbishprick of New Justiana and All Cyprus), fused in the following century when their supreme pontiff vested both offices in 1342 when naming the Franciscans "Custodians of the Holy Land." On that beachhead the "Sacred Congregation of the Propagation of the Faith," "especially charged to promote the union with Rome of the Oriental Christians" as the old "Catholic Encyclopedia" puts it, launched the Jesuits, Capuchins and Carmelites who, as it has perhaps been put best (by Tony Emille Nasrallah), "Anglicized" the Orthodox-just with an Orthodox/Ultramontanist-Latin fissure in orientation rather than an Anglo-Cathoic High Church/Calvinist Low Church one-the "respective causes" menetioned above by CNEWA. The Jesuits, backed by France, took over when the fortunes of Venice and the rest of Italy-patrons of the Franciscans-waned. The rest is history, even if a disputed history.

Not a single "sui juris" church is the product of the council of Florence. Not one. It is just the mold that they have been recast in. That those who signed Florence, Cardinals Bessarion and Isidore, followed the deposed EP Gregory Mamas (who succeeded the suburbicarian Cardinal Francesco Condulmer of Porto and Venice, dean of the College of Cardinals) in the office of the Crusader created Latin Patriarch of New Rome-resident, of course, in Old Rome-is emblematic.

Why then can't the Anglicans promote their "respective cause" among the East? Why can the churches "subsisting" in the Eastern lands serve as the vehicle of of the "respective cause" of Anglican bridge-making as the Latin Patriarchates did in the "respective cause" of their Pontifex Maximus, i.e. chief bridge-builder?
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic

Re: Eastern - Rite Anglicans and Old Catholics? - 05/31/13 01:09 PM

Dear IAmistry,

How in Heaven's Name did the Union of Brest come about as a result of the "northern Crusades?"

I keep "a-Brest" of these issues and this is the first I've ever heard of this.

You must be an historian. Historians not only write history, they re-write it too.

Alex
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Eastern - Rite Anglicans and Old Catholics? - 07/10/13 05:15 PM

Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Dear IAmistry,

How in Heaven's Name did the Union of Brest come about as a result of the "northern Crusades?"


That's very good question.
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Eastern - Rite Anglicans and Old Catholics? - 07/10/13 05:19 PM

Originally Posted by IAlmisry
On the one hand, outside of Italy, your previous Patriarch of the West has mooted your question: the Patriarch of the West-or at least the claimant in question-has repudiated the title and "abolished" the Patriarchate.

Forgive this late reply, but I was just thinking: I've many times heard you and other Orthodox complain about Pope Benedict removing "Patriarch of the West" from the Annuario Pontificio in 2006 ... but I'm still waiting to hear an Orthodox praise Pope Pius IX for inserting "Patriarch of the West" into the Annuario Pontificio in 1863. [Linked Image]
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic

Re: Eastern - Rite Anglicans and Old Catholics? - 07/11/13 10:35 AM

Dear Peter,

Don't hold your breath.

I've come to the conclusion that we are to love all Orthodox - from afar.

Alex
Posted By: IAlmisry

Re: Eastern - Rite Anglicans and Old Catholics? - 07/13/13 11:59 AM

Originally Posted by Peter J
Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Dear IAmistry,

How in Heaven's Name did the Union of Brest come about as a result of the "northern Crusades?"


That's very good question.


Riga-Dubysa-Krewo-Lublin-Brest. Connect the dots, it is a straight line, although crooked.

In contrast, only a trail of broken promises connects Brest to Florence (as can be seen in the text of Brest itself, in reference to the rights promised by the King of Poland to Met. Isidore, reaffirmed but never fulfilled. See Gudziak, "Crisis and Reform pp. 44-5, 314 n. 5)
Posted By: StuartK

Re: Eastern - Rite Anglicans and Old Catholics? - 07/13/13 12:57 PM

The northern crusades had been over for two centuries by the time of the Union of Brest.
Posted By: IAlmisry

Re: Eastern - Rite Anglicans and Old Catholics? - 07/13/13 03:00 PM

Originally Posted by StuartK
The northern crusades had been over for two centuries by the time of the Union of Brest.

Oh? The Teutonic Knights and the Livonian Order all just picked up and left and went back home by 1395?

Jogaila and Vytautas-or rather, Jacob and Alexander, to use the names their Orthodox baptism conferred-preceded the bishops in Brest in pursing a policy of appeasing powers put in place by papal bulls coming from Old Rome by submitting to their supreme pontiff. Whom did they fight against at Grunwald? In fact, the fact that they had to fight anyone at Grunwald should have served as a warning as to the guarantee of the promises in the Articles of Brest had to fulfillment. Two centuries later, in the Four Year Diet, when, after Russia forced the issue, the Metropolitan who adhered to Brest finally got his seat in the senate promised (but not the rest of his bishops) did he get anything approaching equality for himself and his flock to the Latin hierarchy of Poland. And even then, it was begrudging-the Latin bishop of Kiev demanded, and received, erect parishes all across Ukraine from the same diet.
Posted By: IAlmisry

Re: Eastern - Rite Anglicans and Old Catholics? - 07/13/13 03:48 PM

^Oh, and btw, Jagailo and Vytautas had the support in the field of Grundwald of their former coreligionists, their still Orthodox brother Simon and his troops of Smolensk, the Moldavian Hospodar Alexander the Good, along with Orthodox Wallachians in addition to the Orthodox Ruthenians. Even those evil, naughty Tartars lent a hand in defeating Jagailo and Vytautas' new co-religionists. Where was their supreme pontiff, upon whose help the King of Poland and Grand Duke of Lithuania counted? II Kings 18:21.

Btw, our source of an eyewitness to the battle is entitled by him Cronica conflictus Wladislai regis Poloniae cum Cruciferis anno Christi 1410.
Posted By: SERA

Re: Eastern - Rite Anglicans and Old Catholics? - 09/19/13 04:09 AM

The Birth of a Movement: Society for Eastern Rite Anglicanism

Moraga, CA, September 17, 2013 -- For over 950 years Eastern and Western Christians have been divided not just along theological lines, but also in liturgical practice. The Roman Catholic Church, however, has come to accommodate those who prefer to worship according to the Eastern Rite, establishing a place for Eastern Rite Catholics within the church. Likewise, the Antiochian Orthodox Church in North America has reached out and established a Western Rite Vicariate to accommodate Orthodox Christians who prefer to worship according to the Western Rite. This month marks the birth of a new movement within the traditionally Western Rite Anglican Communion to work towards accommodating Eastern Rite Anglicans, marked by the founding of Society for Eastern Rite Anglicanism (SERA). SERA is a faith-based society committed to promoting and sustaining a movement towards an established Eastern Rite in the Anglican Communion.

As Fr. Justin Cannon, one of the cofounders of SERA, explains, “We Anglicans have prided ourselves on diversity and inclusion yet no accommodation has been made for Anglicans who are drawn to the Eastern Rite. In the Roman Catholic Church there are Eastern Catholics and in the Orthodox Church there is a Western Rite Vicariate. It’s time we lay the foundation for Eastern Rite Anglicanism.”

SERA offers an online forum; membership options for individuals, congregations, dioceses and communities; an online bookstore; and “Anglo-Orthodox” versions of the Daily Office. According to the website, SERA hopes to someday include “a publishing house for Eastern Rite Anglican resources, annual retreats for members, regular workshops and training opportunities, and more.” Additionally the Society is offering a fellowship called Fellowship of Saint Isaac the Syrian for Christians who are committed to interior prayer and deep intentionality in their daily lives as living witnesses to the Gospel, through constructing and following a daily rule of life under the guidance of SERA’s Director for Contemplative Life. More information can be found online at www.easternanglicanism.org
Posted By: Michael_Thoma

Re: Eastern - Rite Anglicans and Old Catholics? - 09/23/13 10:19 AM

Does he know of the Marthoma Syrian Church of India? It's an offshoot of the Malankara Syriac Orthodox Church and has the same background as the Syro-Malankara Catholics, but are in full communion with the Anglicans.

Oddly, they are liturgically middle, but theologically low church even compared to the Church of England - no icons, no prayers for the dead, no saints invoked, no Blessed Virgin Mary intercessions.
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic

Re: Eastern - Rite Anglicans and Old Catholics? - 09/23/13 10:46 AM

Yes - and what is anything "Eastern Rite" without the invocation of Saints, especially of the Most Holy Theotokos, icons etc.?

The SERA site seems to me, and I could be wrong, to be a way to adapt some Eastern Rite vestiges to existing Anglican faith and order.

IF that is so, then what SERA is about cannot be compared to the Eastern Catholic Churches nor to the Western Rite Orthodox.

The EC Churches are not about adapting Eastern Rite forms to existing Latin Rite liturgies and the same is true of the Western Rite Orthodox.

They are about establishing communion between Eastern and Western particular Churches and liturgical traditions, each independent of one another rather than somehow "mixed in" or integrated with the other.

A true "Eastern Rite" Anglican would be very much like a High Church Anglican in belief but using the fullness of Eastern Christian liturgy and the office.

What say you SERA? It shouldn't be a question of "Que SERA, SERA!"

Alex
Posted By: Michael_Thoma

Re: Eastern - Rite Anglicans and Old Catholics? - 09/23/13 01:11 PM

Dear Alex,

The issue, I think, is that no one even from within can agree on what Anglican really is. There are many opinions, no consensus, and the hi-churchers you refer to are getting thinner and thinner.

For example, why/how would any real Eastern Church co-exist with the Sydney Anglicans, who's bishop sometimes prefers the non-liturgical necktie instead of vestments and have lay communion, also emphasizing the non-necessity of episcopal consecration?
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic

Re: Eastern - Rite Anglicans and Old Catholics? - 09/23/13 04:13 PM

Dear Michael Thoma,

And one reason they are getting thinner is because they are joining the Ordinariate! smile

So many Anglican acquaintances have done just that.

And you are more than correct - how does one define what an Anglican is by faith and liturgy?

This is not to say that Anglicanism doesn't generate great Christians.

Unless there are other Eastern groups that want to join the Anglicans, I don't see how having some Eastern practices blended in with the Book of Common Prayer makes any sense in an ecclesial way.

There are, of course, Anglicans who are very into the whole Eastern spirituality thing (both Christian and Buddhist/Hindu wink ).

Sorry, but the temptation to say that was quite literally overwhelming . . .

Alex

Posted By: Michael_Thoma

Re: Eastern - Rite Anglicans and Old Catholics? - 09/23/13 04:59 PM

Plus, with a background like this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Justin_R._Cannon

I don't think even his compatriots in the MarthomaSyrian-fullAnglicanCommunion will tolerate that background!
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Eastern - Rite Anglicans and Old Catholics? - 09/24/13 11:28 AM

Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
And one reason they are getting thinner is because they are joining the Ordinariate!

Well yes, although even among the Anglo-Papalists it turned out to be significantly fewer than anticipated. (In retrospect, I think that a very vocal Rome-or-bust minority got a lot more attention than was really warranted, thus fueling the impression that a major exodus was on the way.)
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic

Re: Eastern - Rite Anglicans and Old Catholics? - 09/24/13 03:59 PM

Dear Peter,

The thing is young and the varied hues of high Anglicans who had a fixed gaze Rome-ward have to still work out some issues - which is why they are seeing how the Ordinariate will work itself out.

A similar thing would occur if the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox would unite and revoke the excommunications against the teachers and saints they have disliked for centuries. This would take time.

Even the name "Armenian" for Greeks and others signified, "heretic" and most certainly it would take time to get over that!

Let me illustrate with an ecumenical Anglican group to which I also belong. The Anglicans there were of varied types. Today, they are ALL members of the Ordinariate save for one hold-out.

Give it time sir! "Rome"and union with it wasn't established in a day . . .

Alex
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Eastern - Rite Anglicans and Old Catholics? - 09/25/13 10:24 PM

Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
The thing is young and the varied hues of high Anglicans who had a fixed gaze Rome-ward have to still work out some issues - which is why they are seeing how the Ordinariate will work itself out.

A similar thing would occur if the Eastern and Oriental Orthodox would unite and revoke the excommunications against the teachers and saints they have disliked for centuries. This would take time.

Even the name "Armenian" for Greeks and others signified, "heretic" and most certainly it would take time to get over that!

Let me illustrate with an ecumenical Anglican group to which I also belong. The Anglicans there were of varied types. Today, they are ALL members of the Ordinariate save for one hold-out.

Give it time sir! "Rome"and union with it wasn't established in a day . . .

Alex

The idea of the Ordinariates is not to try to get Anglicans to come into union with Rome, but rather to make reasonable accommodation for those Anglicans who -- of their own accord -- wish to do so.

"We are not fishing in the Anglican lake" - Cardinal Kasper
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic

Re: Eastern - Rite Anglicans and Old Catholics? - 09/25/13 10:55 PM

Dear Peter,

And the difference between those two is . . . ?

The Anglicans who have joined the Ordinariate are truly trying to get other Anglicans and Lutherans to join, in other words, people who would otherwise not think of joining.

At an event recently involving many Anglicans, I overheard several Ordinariate Anglicans (they tend to call themselves variously) try to get others to join. One said, "You know, the Pope is head of the Church on earth, always was, always will be . . ."

Rome also keeps promising the Orthodox the EC's and RC's in Russia are not there to convert them . . . Eye-witnesses, including my in-laws, saw quite differently. They saw RC missionaries try to get Russians to become . . . Latin Catholics and in several parishes they visited, they saw the success with which Russians became Latin Catholics.

I wouldn't believe anything Cardinal Kasper has to say, if I were you. He says one thing to the UGCCers, another to the ROC and then there is always the Italian press in Rome . . .

But I digress . . . There is a manifest role for the Ordinariate which you have succinctly stated, quoting Kasper, and then there is the latent role. That's just the way it is.

Alex

Posted By: Michael_Thoma

Re: Eastern - Rite Anglicans and Old Catholics? - 09/26/13 09:47 AM

Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Dear Peter,

And the difference between those two is . . . ?

The Anglicans who have joined the Ordinariate are truly trying to get other Anglicans and Lutherans to join, in other words, people who would otherwise not think of joining.

At an event recently involving many Anglicans, I overheard several Ordinariate Anglicans (they tend to call themselves variously) try to get others to join. One said, "You know, the Pope is head of the Church on earth, always was, always will be . . ."

Rome also keeps promising the Orthodox the EC's and RC's in Russia are not there to convert them . . . Eye-witnesses, including my in-laws, saw quite differently. They saw RC missionaries try to get Russians to become . . . Latin Catholics and in several parishes they visited, they saw the success with which Russians became Latin Catholics.

I wouldn't believe anything Cardinal Kasper has to say, if I were you. He says one thing to the UGCCers, another to the ROC and then there is always the Italian press in Rome . . .

But I digress . . . There is a manifest role for the Ordinariate which you have succinctly stated, quoting Kasper, and then there is the latent role. That's just the way it is.

Alex

Apparently it's the same in Ethiopia and Eritrea. I met a wonderful nun, can't remember if she's Malankara or Malabar Catholic, but she is serving the poor out there. When they request to become Catholics, they are brought in as Latins, not Malabar, Malankara, or even Ethiopian Catholics. I was dumbfounded as to why.
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic

Re: Eastern - Rite Anglicans and Old Catholics? - 09/26/13 12:27 PM

I guess Rome doesn't want to dis them by spreading Uniatism!

But if they "convert" them to Roman Catholicism, then everyone should be happy right? smile

There are times when I wonder what is going on in RC diplomats' heads (if anything).

At other times, I wonder what we Easterners are doing in union with Rome . . .

Can't say more on this because I don't want to gainsay Todd on this matter grin

Alex
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Eastern - Rite Anglicans and Old Catholics? - 09/26/13 07:09 PM

Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Dear Peter,

And the difference between those two is . . . ?

The Anglicans who have joined the Ordinariate are truly trying to get other Anglicans and Lutherans to join, in other words, people who would otherwise not think of joining.

At an event recently involving many Anglicans, I overheard several Ordinariate Anglicans (they tend to call themselves variously) try to get others to join. One said, "You know, the Pope is head of the Church on earth, always was, always will be . . ."

Rome also keeps promising the Orthodox the EC's and RC's in Russia are not there to convert them . . . Eye-witnesses, including my in-laws, saw quite differently. They saw RC missionaries try to get Russians to become . . . Latin Catholics and in several parishes they visited, they saw the success with which Russians became Latin Catholics.

I wouldn't believe anything Cardinal Kasper has to say, if I were you. He says one thing to the UGCCers, another to the ROC and then there is always the Italian press in Rome . . .

But I digress . . . There is a manifest role for the Ordinariate which you have succinctly stated, quoting Kasper, and then there is the latent role. That's just the way it is.

That actually kind of illustrates my point. As you say, officially Catholics don't encourage Orthodox to become Catholic (we even have this sentence in the Balamand Statement: "Pastoral activity in the Catholic Church, Latin as well as Eastern, no longer aims at having the faithful of one Church pass over to the other") but some Catholics do anyhow.

It's really not even slightly surprising, then, that there are some Catholics out there who push Anglicans to become Catholic. (It would be surprising if they didn't!)
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic

Re: Eastern - Rite Anglicans and Old Catholics? - 09/26/13 10:57 PM

Dear Peter,

And you illustrate my point as well.

Except you say "some" Catholics do. The point is that it is probably going on at a level so as to cause deep distrust among Orthodox and demonstrates inconsistency with what the "official" statements of church authorities and theologians affirm.

I don't know why you say that it wouldn't be surprising.

That Roman Catholics try to convert people in Eastern territories to the Latin Rite and not to the EC churches that are spiritually native to them?

It would be better for the RC's to just keep out and stay home in that case.

It's not as if Roman Catholic missionaries don't have a ton of work to do in North and South America and in Europe in terms of the "new evangelisation."

One great catechetical goal would be to bring back to the Church those Catholics in the West who have joined all manner of sects and other groups.

Is it because you don't think you can do it that you travel to far-off lands, fresh from years of Christian persecution, to install Latin missions?

Come on now, the RC Church is going down the toilet in the West and it knows it.

Evangelisation begins at home!

Alex
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Eastern - Rite Anglicans and Old Catholics? - 09/27/13 07:52 AM

Well, I thought my statement -- namely, that it isn't surprising "that there are some Catholics out there who push Anglicans to become Catholic" (in view of the fact that some Catholics even proselytize Orthodox) was pretty clear, but perhaps it wasn't? Or did you just not read it very carefully? [Linked Image]
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Eastern - Rite Anglicans and Old Catholics? - 09/27/13 07:56 AM

Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Is it because you don't think you can do it that you travel to far-off lands, fresh from years of Christian persecution, to install Latin missions?

Come on now, the RC Church is going down the toilet in the West and it knows it.

Well, I can't really answer that because if I did install missions (which I don't) they wouldn't be Latin missions.

Is it possible that you're allowing bad experiences to cloud your view of Latin Catholics? I'm not trying to be a mind-reader or anything, I'm just asking ... but speaking as someone who was Latin Catholic for 20+ years, I feel pretty sure that statements like "Come on now, the RC Church is going down the toilet in the West and it knows it." wouldn't go over too well with them. [Linked Image]
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic

Re: Eastern - Rite Anglicans and Old Catholics? - 09/27/13 10:32 AM

Dear Peter,

I apologise, sorry.

But my point, I believe, stands. The Latin Church has some serious issues in the West and it is concerned with sending missionaries to areas that are of Orthodox jurisdiction.

They should focus on regaining their own territory that is slipping from their fingers.

Again, I apologise.

Alex
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Eastern - Rite Anglicans and Old Catholics? - 09/27/13 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Dear Peter,

I apologise, sorry.

But my point, I believe, stands. The Latin Church has some serious issues in the West and it is concerned with sending missionaries to areas that are of Orthodox jurisdiction.

They should focus on regaining their own territory that is slipping from their fingers.

Again, I apologise.

Alex


smile

I agree.

Perhaps one Balamand Statement wasn't enough ... or maybe it should have repeated the part about "Pastoral activity in the Catholic Church, Latin as well as Eastern, no longer aims at having the faithful of one Church pass over to the other" three or four times for those who missed it the first time. grin
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic

Re: Eastern - Rite Anglicans and Old Catholics? - 09/28/13 12:12 AM

Dear Peter,

Yes, at least three or four times! smile

My in-laws attended an RC Mass while in Russia attended by mostly Russian converts.

They were surprised and even upset that Russians were being converted to Roman Catholicism. When they asked the priest about it and why he wasn't serving the Byzantine Divine Liturgy, he simply said, "Well, because that isn't my tradition . . ."

We don't have to go to Balamand but to Vatican II to read about the rules in place about that.

Even a parish like that can blow up the ecumenical venture here.

Alex
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Eastern - Rite Anglicans and Old Catholics? - 09/28/13 07:19 AM

I always tell people that I neither encourage nor discourage Orthodox from becoming Catholic, but often when I say that I suspect that many of my fellow Catholics -- Latin and Eastern alike -- aren't really grasping the distinction.

(I realize that may not be highly relevant to your last post, since you were talking specifically about Latin Catholic activity in Eastern territory. But I decided to say it anyhow. smile )
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic

Re: Eastern - Rite Anglicans and Old Catholics? - 09/29/13 11:07 PM

Good for you, Peter!

BTW, do you like Pope Francis?

Alex
Posted By: Fr. John Morris

Re: Eastern - Rite Anglicans and Old Catholics? - 11/28/13 01:54 AM

I looked at the liturgy listed. It is not an authentic translation of the Orthodox Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. It lacks a proper Ekesis and other necessary parts of the Orthodox Liturgy.

Fr. John W. Morris
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