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no respect from Latin Rite Catholics

Posted By: Mateusz

no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/07/10 01:38 AM

No disrespect to all of the knowledgable Latin-Rite Catholics, but often I get the feeling that most think Eastern Rite Catholcism is something from outter space or something. It is kind of discouraging. I know the Pope backs us and theres much of officialy Church documents and literature that shows how ancient and authentic the various eastern rites are, but sometimes I often see attidude from the Latins that we are not real Catholics. Anyone else get that feeling?
Posted By: sielos ilgesys

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/07/10 03:37 AM

This used to happen more in the past and is not as prevelant today, at least not in North Texas. Most Latins I meet are rather surprised at our existence and actually show interest in learning more about us. Some of them will come to Divine Liturgy and like it; and continue attending, even if it just be occasionally. Several of our parishioners have canonically transferred from the Latin Church to the Byzantine Ruthenian Church.
Posted By: Lawrence

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/07/10 04:00 AM


Plenty of Latin Rite Catholics think some of there own traditions are from Outer Space. For instance, next time you run into a Roman Catholic ask them what they did for Epiphany.
Posted By: likethethief

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/07/10 07:24 AM

Originally Posted by Lawrence

Plenty of Latin Rite Catholics think some of there own traditions are from Outer Space. For instance, next time you run into a Roman Catholic ask them what they did for Epiphany.


Truer words were never spoken, tho I'm not sure the word "traditions" is the right word for much of it.

Posted By: Irish Melkite

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/07/10 10:11 AM

Originally Posted by Mateusz
No disrespect to all of the knowledgable Latin-Rite Catholics, but often I get the feeling that most think Eastern Rite Catholcism is something from outter space or something. It is kind of discouraging. I know the Pope backs us and theres much of officialy Church documents and literature that shows how ancient and authentic the various eastern rites are, but sometimes I often see attidude from the Latins that we are not real Catholics. Anyone else get that feeling?


I presume from this that Mateusz has had some recent particularly unpleasant experience with some of our Latin brethren and it is all too true that there are still many among them who are either outright ignorant of Eastern Christianity, have no interest in it, or consider all Eastern Christians to be a religious curiousity or an anachronism.

However, lest this thread devolve into a Latin-bashing fest, consider that ...

we are blessed to have among us here a number of Latin Catholics and several members of other Christian Churches who are knowledgeable of the East, respect it, and support us both intellectually and spiritually ...

in our real-life communities, there are many such - not the least of whom were those Latin clergy who gave unstintingly of themselves for decades to serve our parishes and peoples, as best they could, when we had not enough priests of our own ...

too, there were those Latin hierarchs whose support for our peoples and parishes and attendance to their needs were the antithesis of the treatment our spiritual forebearers received from such as Archbishops John Ireland and Patrick Ryan.

For all of these we must be grateful and honor their efforts by refusing to become footnotes in the history of Christianity.

Our mission then - both Eastern and Oriental - both Catholic and Orthodox, besides evangelizing the unchurched and welcoming those who have found new life and flourished in the liturgical praxis and spirituality of the East, must be to make Eastern Christianity better known and understood.

With all due respect to the frustration that Mateusz feels and which we have all experienced at times, we cannot allow ourselves to become mired in self-pity or retreat into a ghetto environment, circling our wagons. Doing so will serve no end other than to give proof to those who see us irrelevant to modern Christian life.

Many years,

Neil
Posted By: Utroque

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/07/10 01:41 PM

Very well stated, Neil. Thank you on Christmas day, Old Style. Christ is born!
Posted By: theophan

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/07/10 02:36 PM

Quote
Plenty of Latin Rite Catholics think some of there own traditions are from Outer Space.


Christ is Born!! Glorify Him!!

And the best part is that they just keep coming!! crazy crazy

We have been offered "do it yourself" home blessing "kits" for Epiphany for the past eight years in my parish. Comes with a little holy water bottle, a prayer text, a piece of chalk to mark the door posts--everything you need.

I shudder to think of the next step--a "do it yourself" home Eucharist "kit" for those Sundays when the weather is bad or one just "doesn't feel like" attending.

Sometimes I think I'm living in the Twilight Zone.

Mateusz, no, you're not from outer space. For many of us, you're our touchstone with reality, me included.

BOB
Posted By: Pilgrim66

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/07/10 04:16 PM

Traditions?? As a Latin Catholic I often wonder what is considered a tradition to a Latin Catholic? Recently in the church I attend the priest attempted to use incense during mass and got so much grief from the congregation(Im allergic, it makes me cough, etc etc) that he has limited it to one only one specific weekend mass. Or I wonder if it is in my tradition to have Go Tell It On The Mountain as a hymn used during mass??
Posted By: Collin Nunis

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/07/10 04:39 PM

In Perth, the Latins are slowly getting to know who we are as the Melkite Catholics here in Perth (myself and Deacon Pierre) are the gracious hosts the Catholic Malaysian community of Western Australia. I have a foot in both bodies, the Catholic Malaysian community being predominantly Latin. However, as they've learnt more about us, they've accepted us and hopefully, one of our next regular Masses as a community will be celebrated in the Melkite Rite.

On another note, as the Latin cathedral was opened last month, our Melkite eparch was featured in the Archdiocesan paper 3 times. All my friends were asking as to who that bishop was with that "funky crown", to which I proudly mustered who that man was. At all the gradual opening events, my deacon and I (unofficially) represented the Melkite Church. Everyone crowded my deacon and asked why the only clergy representative of the Eastern Catholic Churches did not vest and serve at the altar. Latin priests, deacons, and Latin laity alike. For them, they are excited about this.

As we go along, I am formally inviting the seminarians of St. Charles in Guildford to join us for Sunday Liturgy one day. I've spoken to some seminarians and some of them have expressed interest in the Eastern Rite. Pray that we will have more Eastern priests here in Perth.

It is certainly good news but I understand that there is a large segment of them who do not know who we are. Don't worry, we will get our day soon. God promises us this. Amen.
Posted By: Stephanos I

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/07/10 06:12 PM

Maybe we should incorporate sections of our catechism books in the Latin Church to begin to make future generations aware of the rich heritage and traditions of the East!
Now get busy and work on the Bishops and the publishing house.
Stephanos I
Posted By: LibCath2000

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/07/10 06:15 PM

As a former Roman, I can attest that ignorance of the Christian East, is still very widespread.

However, through more exposure of the Eastern Churches, through print media, internet and just plain local visibility, I think perceptions are slowly starting to change.

I think that one of the primary reasons why the East has been so misunderstood by the West, rests with the Roman Catholic ecclesiological self-ascription, of the "one true church."

For the majority of Roman believers, I would imagine, that this understanding translates into...the ROMAN Catholic Church is the one true church.

So, it is not surprising that when one who has only known that particular ecclesial tradition encounters something else, calling itself Catholic, confusion may initially ensue.

Not helping the issue, is the fact that there are thousands of other churches, which either call themselves Catholic (or legitimately are), and are not in Communion with Rome.

Faithful, are often warned about these institutions, and therefore, again, people may become confused when they see Eastern Catholics, and in particular may think that these too are to be avoided.

The days of putting up a picture of the reigning pontiff, anywhere in the Church, to show one's full communion status, are gone. There are in fact many websites which show pictures of Benedict XVI portrait inside churches outside of communion with Rome.

What I had always thought would be a good way to make local Roman Catholic's more knowledgeable about the Eastern Catholics (and by extension, the Orthodox) would have been to have a diocesan-wide Eastern Catholic Sunday. Perhaps, all the local EC clergy and communities could be invited to the Roman cathedral for an Eastern liturgy and subsequently have a food fair and information booths or seminars afterwards to educate the local population.

Anyway just my two cents.

LC2K
Posted By: likethethief

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/07/10 10:04 PM

Christ is Baptized!

First, mea culpa if my previous post had any potential Latin bashing tones. I am challenged by my Latin parish/Latin life and sometimes I do "process" that frustration where I think it's safe to do so, but I don't want to be encouraging bashing. Sometimes I'm just naive (or you might say usually I'm naive smile )

Originally Posted by Irish Melkite

in our real-life communities, there are many such - not the least of whom were those Latin clergy who gave unstintingly of themselves for decades to serve our parishes and peoples, as best they could, when we had not enough priests of our own ...
Neil


Yes! to all you said, especially this comment.

In my case we have been served by bi-ritual priests since the founding of the parish in the 50's. Without the Jesuits who trained in Rome for the Russian Apostolate and served them I imagine the Russian refugees who were Eastern Catholic would either have untimately moved into Latin or Orthodox parishes here. Currently we have a wonderful Latin priest con celebrating with Fr. Eugene, learning the DL. We have also a Latin raised canonically Eastern hierodeacon, serving with Fr DK Kyril, and learning the ropes who will be ordained to the priesthood this year. Without our parish this hierodeacon might not have had an opportunity to get his Eastern serving at the altar during his current formation (Latin).

Originally Posted by theophan

We have been offered "do it yourself" home blessing "kits" for Epiphany for the past eight years in my parish. Comes with a little holy water bottle, a prayer text, a piece of chalk to mark the door posts--everything you need.

I shudder to think of the next step--a "do it yourself" home Eucharist "kit" for those Sundays when the weather is bad or one just "doesn't feel like" attending.

Sometimes I think I'm living in the Twilight Zone.
BOB


Maybe that was what Lawrence meant by "ask them what they did for Epiphany" and I didn't get the reference. I would like to start a separate thread about that because I have a different take on the "kit" you are referring to. I don't want this thread to get off on that but I'd like to talk about it more.
Posted By: theophan

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/08/10 01:20 AM

Quote
. . . "kit" you are referring to.


Does yours come in a plastic sandwich bag?

BOB
Posted By: Mateusz

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/08/10 01:50 AM

Yes, I did not mean to put all Latin-Rite Catholics in the same boat. Many are aware and generous to our cause and vocation to be the other lung of the Catholic Church.
Posted By: Alice

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/08/10 02:38 AM

Quote
We have been offered "do it yourself" home blessing "kits" for Epiphany for the past eight years in my parish. Comes with a little holy water bottle, a prayer text, a piece of chalk to mark the door posts--everything you need.


To be fair, would it be physically feasible for a RC priest to visit the home of every parishioner to bless, being that each parish has so many parishioners-- doesn't it?

At least this very important tradition is not being forgotten and discarded. That is a good thing.

This reminds me of something else that is ideally supposed to be administered by the priest...In the Greek Orthodox church we used to take home Holy Unction to annoint absent family members ourselves. My priest is the only one I have ever heard say that he will not allow that, because it is the Priest that is supposed to annoint this oil, and that he welcomes phone calls to go visit shut ins and those in the hospital so he can annoint them, and that the congregation should not hesitate to call him for these visits. That is wonderful of him to find the time in his busy schedule to do, but the size of our parish congregation is probably nothing in comparison to most RC parishes.

Even with house blessings, parishioners are supposed to set up a time for the priest to visit if they want their house blessed...I don't think that every parishioner has their house blessed annually...so, perhaps the 'kits' are getting more houses blessed than if the priest needed to do it!!!

Also, regarding the 'kit' you mentioned--The chalk on top of the door sounds like the Orthodox tradition of marking the sign of the cross on the top of the door posts after the Resurrection with the lit candle from the service. I had never heard of this RC tradition before. I would like to hear more about it.

Just some thoughts. :-)
Alice

Posted By: Jakub.

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/08/10 04:00 AM

Alice, this is by Fr. Mark @ Vultus Christi...


For those of you who keep the Epiphany of the Lord on the traditional date of January 6th, and for those of you who haven't yet blessed your houses for the Epiphany, here again is the traditional blessing from the Roman Ritual with a little explanation of it.

Epiphany Inscription Over the Doorway of the Home
20 + C + M + B + 10

The letters have two meanings. They are the initials of the traditional names of the Three Magi: Caspar, Melchior and Balthasar. They also abbreviate the Latin words Christus mansionem benedicat. May Christ bless the house.” The letters recall the day on which the inscription is made, as well as the purpose of blessing.

The crosses represent the protection of the Precious Blood of Christ, Whose Sacred Name we invoke, and also the holiness of the Three Magi sanctified by their adoration of the Infant Christ.

The inscription is made above the front door, so that all who enter and depart this year may enjoy God's blessing. The month of January still bears the name of the Roman god Janus, the doorkeeper of heaven and protector of the beginning and end of things. This blessing "christens" the ancient Roman observance of the first month. The inscription is made of chalk, a product of clay, which recalls the human nature taken by the Adorable and Eternal Word of God in the womb of the Virgin Mary, by the power of the Holy Spirit.

To bless your home this Epiphany, first read the Prologue of Saint John's Gospel, followed by the Our Father, and the Collect of the Epiphany; then write the inscription for this year above your front door with blessed chalk.

Blessing of Chalk

V. Our help is the name of the Lord.
R. Who made heaven and earth.

V. The Lord be with you.
R. And with your spirit.

Let us pray.

Bless, O Lord God, this creature chalk
to render it helpful to your people.
Grant that they who use it in faith
and with it inscribe upon the doors of their homes
the names of your saints, Caspar, Melchior, and Balthasar,
may through their merits and intercession
enjoy health of body and protection of soul.
Through Christ our Lord.




Posted By: Irish Melkite

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/08/10 06:41 AM

Originally Posted by Alice
The chalk on top of the door sounds like the Orthodox tradition of marking the sign of the cross on the top of the door posts after the Resurrection with the lit candle from the service. I had never heard of this RC tradition before. I would like to hear more about it.


Alice,

In addition to what Bob has posted, this old thread discusses the custom at some length.

Many years,

Neil
Posted By: Irish Melkite

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/08/10 07:19 AM

Mateusz and Mary Louise,

If I came across as suggesting that either of you seemed to be instigating Latin-bashing, I didn't intend to do so. I was merely cautioning against the possibility, since the legitimate concerns that Mateusz expressed could easily lead to such - given that there are both historic and current circumstances that could easily give rise to it. While I firmly believe that Eastern Christians have legitimate issues with how they've been and sometimes still are viewed and treated by the Latin Church as an institution and by some Latins, I am convinced that we need to be proactive in overcoming those, rather than bemoaning what should have been or how it should be. That was my point.

Many years,

Neil
Posted By: Irish Melkite

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/08/10 07:26 AM

LC2K,

Your observations are very perceptive, my friend. We are, indeed, often still perceived as something other than Catholic as 'Catholic' is understood by the public - both Latin and otherwise. 'Oh, you're Orthodox - right?' While few of us would consider ourselves insulted by being confused with our Orthodox brethren, we are - regretably - not yet one with them in so many ways. And, as you note, the proliferation of 'other Catholics', whether of the Utrecht Confession, independent, vagante, sede vacante, schismatic, or otherwise separated from the historic Catholic Communion has not helped the situation.

Many years,

Neil
Posted By: likethethief

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/08/10 08:29 AM

Originally Posted by Jakub.
Alice, this is by Fr. Mark @ Vultus Christi...


Actually it's by or borrows very heavily from Fr Paul Turner, pastor of St. Munchin Parish in Cameron, Mo. Copyright © 2003 Resource Publications, Inc. Hopefully he credited Fr. Paul. smile
Posted By: PeterPeter

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/08/10 02:56 PM

Quote

I think that one of the primary reasons why the East has been so misunderstood by the West, rests with the Roman Catholic ecclesiological self-ascription, of the "one true church."


Cf. "I believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church...". There's one Church.


Quote
For the majority of Roman believers, I would imagine, that this understanding translates into...the ROMAN Catholic Church is the one true church.


If "Roman" includes non-Latin Catholics, then yes, this is the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsistit_in#Vatican_interpretation
However, my experience is that "majority of Roman believers" no longer believe in that, maybe except for some "traditionalists" like lefebrites, who aren't very numerous.

The "bashing" is a normal psychological reaction. When you have two different things (rites, traditions) with the same purpose (sanctification of your soul) some people will prefer one above the other, and when they see that what they've chosen "works", the other lacks things which "work" or has them in under- or overdeveloped ways, they will judge the other option as "inferior" in a variety of ways. And indeed what works for some people doesn't work for others.

On the other hand we can't allow everybody to pick what he wants, because it leads to anarchy similar to the devastation of post-1969 (Pauline) liturgy in the West, or maybe latinizations in the East. The Church gives us a possibility (not right) to choose, but you have to put roots down, live your tradition, grow in it fully. Personally I think that traditions do not attract each other, rather they repel each other. So I think we will argue endlessly over whose theology is superior etc., I think it's either schism, contempt (the notion that the Westerners are barbarians who know nothing was present in the first millenium) or latinization. Or byzantinization, but maybe not in current circumstances. But that's just my 2 cents.
Posted By: Lawrence

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/08/10 03:35 PM


On the lighter side, I remember telling my girlfriend after a weekday liturgy last Lent, that we had twice as many Roman Catholics in the aisles doing prostrations as we did Ukrainian Catholics. We're all friends though and we're all on the same side.
Posted By: Precentrix

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/08/10 03:42 PM

I think the problem is that the majority of Latin-rite Catholics simply don't realise that there are other traditions within the Church-in-communion-with-Rome. Basically, ignorance.

Though, to think a little further, surely there is only one Church. One, Holy, Catholic, Apostolic. Everything else is scandal. That doesn't mean one tradition but it means that, if we were doing what we should be doing, which is precisely to live as the Lord taught us and to love one another fully, there would be no division in the Church and everyone would be in full and unimpaired communion with each other. And we wouldn't have Protestants either.

Posted By: Pilgrim66

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/08/10 04:39 PM

It seems to me that the people that post on this site are very knowledgable about their faith, however I think that the average "man or woman in the pew" is not. Perhaps this is where the problem lies. I have found that many Roman/Latin Catholics are not even sure of what they believe or why they believe it. I wonder if it is an issue better education by the local churches. I can only speak of my own experiances and cannot speak for other areas but as a father of two children, one who was recently confirmed and went through the mandatory classes, I found that most people treated these classes as a necessary evil and they were taught as such. And even in the CCD classes my younger son attends they are lacking in any real substance of what and why we believe. As I said I can only speak from my experiances but maybe there needs to be a grassroots effort to present the hows and whys.
Posted By: PeterPeter

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/08/10 04:51 PM

Quote
if we were doing what we should be doing, which is precisely to live as the Lord taught us and to love one another fully, there would be no division in the Church


The divisions in the Church are fully legitimate, and they came out of love. We can't suppose that the Apostles (and their successors) who founded different Churches in different places which resulted in different traditions did something wrong or lacked love.

Leaving the Church is no good. We are not allowed to place love of men above love of God, as following schismatics would seem. Many schisms were caused at least in part by sins of the hierarchy (although I think that in case of Protestants who aren't only schismatics but also plain heretics this factor is overemphasized - if you really wanted a reform you wouldn't have denied truths as basic as sacraments), but I don't think it's a good excuse for officially leaving the Church. Every schismatic says he takes Church with him, though.
Posted By: Precentrix

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/08/10 05:00 PM

You misread me, I think. I don't refer to a legitimate variety of praxis (legitimate as opposed to the terrible liturgical abuses we are seeing in the West at this moment) or local custom, but to disunion, disharmony.
Posted By: PeterPeter

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/08/10 06:06 PM

Quote
but to disunion, disharmony


I think that if two traditions rooted so deeply in different theology like Catholic and Orthodox meet (whether on the same territory or not) disunion and disharmony is inevitable. So I can understand the Orthodox when they insist on the concept of "canonical territories" and their demand to stop "proselytizing" and to dismantle Eastern Catholic Churches. I'm not saying that this is good, but I don't think that there's a realistic solution at all.

And so the very few in numbers Eastern Catholics are treated bad by their Western brethren as something strange and rare, and are a thorn in the eye of the Orthodox.

What strengthened the identity of the churches was the nearly total territorial exclusion of not only other religions, but other ritual and spiritual traditions in Europe for a very long time. The West was entirely of Latin tradition, the East entirely Byzantine, the exceptions were insignificant for hundreds of years. And Church and religion were a very important factor in every aspect of social, private and public life. The Eastern Catholics lacked such entities. There were no monoconfessional Eastern Catholic states, no strong missionary activity, which together with (understandable, see paragraph one) lack of sympathy from the territorial Latin hierarchy after the Union, made the Eastern Catholic Churches unable to grow from the very beginning, so it's now a small group in comparison with the total number of Catholics, fighting to purge overwhelming latinizations. But the Eastern Catholics are apparently too small a group and too dispersed to have their "own life". Their clergy has to study somewhere, so IMO is either latinization or "orthodoxization" which will naturally tend to union with the Orthodox.

This may sound harsh but I can't express myself properly in English. I am sympathetic towards Eastern Catholics and the Byzantine tradition in general smile
Posted By: Precentrix

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/08/10 09:04 PM

To a certain extent I agree with you - my point was simply to stress that, above and beyond all this, there is still only one Church.

I have friends studying for Orders in the Eastern Catholic context, who are being forced to study the same courses, in the same universities, as their Latin equivalents. This is something they bitterly rue. It is actually the Latinisation which is more likely to be responsible for these young men leaving our communion. They think Orthodox, and what they get is the post-VaticanII-mess-of-a-Latin-Church with slightly better taste.

Actually, the Latinisation drives me mad. Perhaps in the case of those now situated in the West, it is understandable, but things like the introduction of the Latin Rite to the Ukraine make me want to growl.
Posted By: likethethief

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/08/10 09:54 PM

Originally Posted by Precentrix

I have friends studying for Orders in the Eastern Catholic context, who are being forced to study the same courses, in the same universities, as their Latin equivalents. This is something they bitterly rue. It is actually the Latinisation which is more likely to be responsible for these young men leaving our communion. They think Orthodox, and what they get is the post-VaticanII-mess-of-a-Latin-Church with slightly better taste.


It's very wrong, isn't it?!
Are there places where Eastern or Oriental Catholics are studying more or less full time in an Orthodox seminary? I know of several in my area who have taken courses at Patriarch Athenagoras Orthodox Institute and at St. Vladimir's. I'm not sure but Fr. Maximos may have gotten a master's degree through PAOI.
Posted By: StuartK

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/08/10 10:59 PM

This is why the Eastern "rites" of the Latin orders should be suppressed, to be replaced by authentic Eastern monasticism. Father Taft has spoken eloquently of the tensions and contradictions that come from being an Eastern Christian under a Latin rule.
Posted By: Pavel Ivanovich

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/09/10 12:17 AM

A number of the American Melkites studied at the Greek Orthodox seminary. I think it is Holy Cross.

Getting rid of such groups as the Sister Servants in the UGCC whose total existance is RC from the structure of the organisation to the way they dress, will be a big problem. Down under has them and they are clearly very latinised. I suspect it is due to them and the also latinised Basilians (from Argentina) we have we still have first Communions and now first solemn confessions have appeared.

cool
Posted By: Benedict777

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/09/10 02:38 AM

Thanks for posting this Jakub! I almost forgot about this great tradition. I just followed through with it two days late but better late then never.
Posted By: Ghosty

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/09/10 03:33 AM

Originally Posted by likethethief

Are there places where Eastern or Oriental Catholics are studying more or less full time in an Orthodox seminary? I know of several in my area who have taken courses at Patriarch Athenagoras Orthodox Institute and at St. Vladimir's. I'm not sure but Fr. Maximos may have gotten a master's degree through PAOI.


Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that the Melkite Church in the U.S. largely does its own educating, and if it can't it sends seminarians to predominantly Orthodox teachers. At least that's the impression I've gotten from talking to my friend who is preparing for his ordination to the Diaconate.

Heck, even in the "Melkite-run" course he was taking, their key text was "The Eucharist" by Fr. Alexander Schmemann. grin

Peace and God bless!
Posted By: likethethief

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/09/10 04:32 AM

Quote
There are now three major seminaries in the Melkite church: the patriarchal seminary of St. Anne in Raboué, Lebanon; Holy Savior Seminary in Beit Sahour, Israel, for dioceses in Israel, Jordan, the West Bank and Gaza; and St. Gregory the Theologian Seminary in Newton, Massachusetts, USA, for the United States and other English-speaking countries. The Melkite Paulist Fathers direct an important theological institute at Harissa and administer a well-known publishing house.


Chaldeans & Assyrians have a seminary in the US now, the only Chaldean Seminary outside of Iraq, in CA.

Byzantine Catholic Seminary of SS. Cyril and Methodius PA

Our Lady of Lebanon Seminary for the Maronite D.C.

St. Basil Seminary Melkite in MA

St. Basil’s College Ukrainian Catholic, CT

Holy Spirit Seminary Ukrainian Catholic in Ottawa
Posted By: likethethief

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/09/10 04:58 AM

Originally Posted by Ghosty

Heck, even in the "Melkite-run" course he was taking, their key text was "The Eucharist" by Fr. Alexander Schmemann. grin

Peace and God bless!


We're told he was banned and burned in Russia. He's been good for this lay person. smile
Posted By: Irish Melkite

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/09/10 09:43 AM

Regretably, both St Gregory's - the Melkite eparchial seminary - and St Basil's - the Melkite Salvatorian seminary - exist principally on paper. At one time, both flourished and, in fact, Bishop Robert of the Maronites and Bishop John Michael of the Romanians attended St Basil's and St Gregory's respectively.

Presently, at least two Melkite eparchial seminarians are enrolled at St Cyril & Methodius (the Byzantine Metropolia's seminary). The Salvatorians have one or two novices, I believe, but they are doing their coursework at Latin colleges and (I think) Holy Cross - the GOA seminary. Our relationship with Holy Cross goes back a long way - to the days of Archbishop Iakovos - and our seminarians have done coursework there even when our seminaries were functional.

Many years,

Neil
Posted By: Stephanos I

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/09/10 10:59 PM

Thanks for the prayers. I will set about blessings the homes again this year. But we have to spread it out throughout the whole year.
And its only usually done when the home is new, or newly moved into. As Alice said, in a parish of 5400 families this anual blessing would be next to impossible.
Stephanos I
We usually sing "We Three Kings of Orient Are". The children have foil crowns and then we have a festive meal. (The only reason I go wink )
Posted By: StuartK

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/09/10 11:24 PM

I will revive once again the suggestion that got me banned years ago: We should shut down all the Eastern Catholic seminaries and send all our people to the various Orthodox ones. We'll save scads of money, and the overall level of instruction will improve.
Posted By: Apotheoun

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/09/10 11:43 PM

Originally Posted by StuartK
I will revive once again the suggestion that got me banned years ago: We should shut down all the Eastern Catholic seminaries and send all our people to the various Orthodox ones. We'll save scads of money, and the overall level of instruction will improve.

That sounds like a great idea to me.
Posted By: sielos ilgesys

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/10/10 01:14 AM

I, on the other hand, think this idea stinks.

What a great way for our Byzantine Catholic Churches to be re-absobed into the Orthodox Church.

God forbid. I can't speak for anyone else but I have no desire whatsoever to join the Orthodox Church. I respect them and admire certain things about them but joining one of them? No thanks, man.
Posted By: StuartK

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/10/10 02:15 AM

If we are indeed "Orthodox Christians in communion with the Church of Rome", then what will our people learn in an Eastern Catholic seminary that they cannot or will not learn in an Orthodox seminary? Let's face it--as compared to St. Vlad's, St. Tikon's and Holy Cross, our seminaries are not only under-utilized, over-staffed and over-facilitized, but offer a distinctly second rate theological education--which is why our best and brightest go off to Orthodox institutions anyway.

Just what do you think those awful Orthodox will teach our people that will cause us to be "re-absorbed" into the Orthodox Church?

Although, now that you mention it, I will repeat Bishop John Michael (Botean)'s oft-repeated aphorism: "The vocation of the Eastern Catholics is to disappear". Face it--at some point, maybe sooner, maybe later, the Catholic communion and the Eastern Orthodox communion will be reconciled, and at that point there will be no reason for our continued existence as distinctive ecclesial entities. Our destiny, our telos, is to become one with our Mother Churches.
Posted By: mardukm

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/10/10 04:07 AM

Dear brother StuartK,

Originally Posted by StuartK
If we are indeed "Orthodox Christians in communion with the Church of Rome", then what will our people learn in an Eastern Catholic seminary that they cannot or will not learn in an Orthodox seminary? Let's face it--as compared to St. Vlad's, St. Tikon's and Holy Cross, our seminaries are not only under-utilized, over-staffed and over-facilitized, but offer a distinctly second rate theological education--which is why our best and brightest go off to Orthodox institutions anyway.

Just what do you think those awful Orthodox will teach our people that will cause us to be "re-absorbed" into the Orthodox Church?

I have a definite understanding of the mission of Eastern/Oriental Catholicism as a bridge between the Catholic Churches and the Orthodox Churches. It is that mission which will be put in danger, IMHO, if we let all our people be schooled in EO seminaries. I am less apprehensive if we are talking about Oriental Catholics being schooled in OO seminaries since the OO (sadly, except for the COC) generally have official recognition of each other's sacraments and Churches as true Churches.

Quote
Although, now that you mention it, I will repeat Bishop John Michael (Botean)'s oft-repeated aphorism: "The vocation of the Eastern Catholics is to disappear".

I am admittedly not fully apprised of the context of this message, but it seems to me that this reabsorption spoken of by the Bishop refers to the time when there is a mutual reabsorption of all the Catholic and Orthodox Churches into unity.

Blessings
Posted By: aramis

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/10/10 07:03 AM

I went Byzantine becuase the Orthodox reject the God-Given duty of unity to Peter's Heir as Christ's appointed shepherd of the flock. (Jn 21)

Posted By: StuartK

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/10/10 12:34 PM

Sheesh!
Posted By: sielos ilgesys

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/10/10 02:09 PM

I do not consider the Orthodox to be "awful"- I admire their witness under Soviet oppression but I do take issue with them on several theological points and with their barely-disguised contempt of the Latin Church.

I do not agree with their vision of what the Pope's role in the Church should be nor with their rejection of the immaculate Conception, to name a couple of points.Their collaboration with the Communists in the destruction of the greek Catholic Church in Ukraine is simply disgraceful.

What you quote Bishop John Michael as having said sounds to me like something that could have uttered at the seudo-Synod of L'viv in 1946. If he went to Romania today he could see first-hand the disappearance of our Greek Catholic Church going on there now.
Posted By: StuartK

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/10/10 02:20 PM

And what does any of that have to do with what is taught in the seminaries? Let us go back to brass tacks--since we already send many of our people to Orthodox seminaries, just what value added comes from having a distinctive Greek Catholic seminary system, other than incurring significant costs to produce an inferior product?

As for Kyr John Michael, I submit you have no idea what you are saying, and that the situations are utterly different. You owe him an apology, particularly as he has been quite outspoken in regard to the situation of the Greek Catholics in Romania.

So, I repeat, "Sheesh"! If you are a Greek Catholic, you are supposed to be Orthodox in all things and also be in communion with the Church of Rome.
Posted By: sielos ilgesys

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/10/10 02:27 PM

Are you talking about "getting rid" of the SSMIs; the "sluzhebnytsi"? Stalin tried that and managed to produce martyrs for the Faith (like Bl. New-Martyr Tarsykia Matskiv).

Whatever latinisms they have embraced, they can always embark on a campaign to eliminate them - which is a far cry from eliminating the Sister Servants themselves.
Posted By: StuartK

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/10/10 06:45 PM

All Eastern rites of Latin orders should be suppressed because their rule and spirituality are not compatible with true Byzantine monasticism and spirituality. The result is a continual tension and compromise between the rule of the order and the rule of the Tradition--and the rule of the order usually wins.
Posted By: LibCath2000

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/10/10 07:34 PM

Originally Posted by sielos ilgesys
I, on the other hand, think this idea stinks.

What a great way for our Byzantine Catholic Churches to be re-absobed into the Orthodox Church.

God forbid. I can't speak for anyone else but I have no desire whatsoever to join the Orthodox Church. I respect them and admire certain things about them but joining one of them? No thanks, man.



This post seems to make absolute sense to me.

When I was first learning about the Eastern Catholic Churches, one thing that never made sense to me, as a Roman, was the attitude of some Eastern Catholic's which seemed to lament their relationship with Rome.

And this, is probably another reason why the Latin Church largely misunderstands its Eastern sisters.

If you take an ordinary Roman Catholic, and present them with Eastern Catholics who prefer worshipping with the Orthodox rather than other Catholic's, this can raise red flags.

After all, the rules for worship and intercommunion, among all Catholics in communion with Rome, are the same.

I understand the patrimonial and liturgical similarities between the EC and EO churches, but they have a very distinct difference, which at this time, keeps them as separate churches, not in communion with one another.

LC2K
Posted By: Irish Melkite

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/10/10 08:02 PM

Originally Posted by StuartK
I will repeat Bishop John Michael (Botean)'s oft-repeated aphorism: "The vocation of the Eastern Catholics is to disappear". Face it--at some point, maybe sooner, maybe later, the Catholic communion and the Eastern Orthodox communion will be reconciled, and at that point there will be no reason for our continued existence as distinctive ecclesial entities. Our destiny, our telos, is to become one with our Mother Churches.


It isn't often that Stuart and I see eye-to-eye, so those keeping score may want to memorialize this date on their calendar. However, I submit that Bishop John Michael is not the first hierarch to voice that opinion and I'm aggravated that I can't find the quote I want to back up that assertion.

The idea of the EC/OC Churches as 'bridges' between Orthodoxy and Catholicism is a failed one. Despite the fact that the concept virtually never worked, the notion was still being parroted until the 60's or 70's. There was a decided lack of subtlety that usually took the form of those advancing it going on to say 'it gives those Orthodox who want to convert a place that's familiar, where they can feel comfortable'. It was part and parcel of everything that the Orthodox found distasreful about 'uniatism' and contributed significantly to the long delay in our Churches being fully acknowledged as true ecclesial entities, rather than just 'rites'.

If you want evidence that even Rome understands that the 'bridge' role has no underpinnings just consider the fact that most discussions between Orthodoxy and Catholicism have occured with the Catholic side represented solely by Latins. If we were truly a 'bridge', we'd have been sitting in the middle of those; as it has been, our presence has instead been deemed a roadblock and, therefore, we have often, until very recently, not even been invited.

Today, those who still put forth the bridge concept as a viable role for us are generally the same folks who have no trouble accepting second-class status for our Churches in the Catholic Communion and see ultimate unity of the Catholic and Orthodox Communions coming about, not on equal terms, but via submission.

Call my Church a witness - but not a bridge.

Many years,

Neil
Posted By: Irish Melkite

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/10/10 08:10 PM

Just a thought. As I look at the turn the thread is taking, I'm struck by the fact that, if we cannot even agree among ourselves as to why our Churches exist, it offers a hint as to the reasons why we don't get respect from Latins.

Many years,

Neil
Posted By: Irish Melkite

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/10/10 08:40 PM

Originally Posted by StuartK
All Eastern rites of Latin orders should be suppressed because their rule and spirituality are not compatible with true Byzantine monasticism and spirituality. The result is a continual tension and compromise between the rule of the order and the rule of the Tradition--and the rule of the order usually wins.


Here, we'll disagree. Although I deplore the loss of the Eastern ethos in much of EC monasticism, to suppress the Eastern provinces of orders that are historically Latin would be an offense to the many of those same orders who have served our Churches with love and, often, their blood.

As an example, while the Jesuits and some other of the orders have a checkered early history with the East - mired by coercive 'conversion' and latinizations - that is best understood in the ignorance of the times and vowed never to be allowed to recur. There is also the later history of true commitment and service, as witnessed by the Servant of God, Father Walter, and many others, who have not compromised anything.

Are the differences fully able to be reconciled in all instances? No. Father Archimandrite Orestes (Karame), of blessed memory, albeit he loved the Society, felt that his Eastern heritage and spirituality could not be fully nourished within it and left in favor of becoming a priest of the patriarchate. He did not, however, deny that the Society had, in modern times, served the Eastern and Oriental Churches well. In a discussion that we had on the matter, he said that Jesuits serving in the Society's Oriental Mission (its 'Eastern province' as it were) were committed and essential. He felt that his personal need to separate from the Society was more a matter of being isolated from both the Society and his religious heritage - because the Society was not as strongly represented in the Melkite and other Churches of the Greek Tradition as it was in the Churches of the Slav Tradition.

So, I would concur that latinizations need to be purged from Eastern religious communities and, if those communities are to continue in existence, they need to embrace historic Eastern forms of community.

However, to suggest that those provinces of Latin religious communities that are fully committed to Eastern spirituality should be suppressed is akin to suggesting that we will no longer allow those to worship with us who are not cradle EC/OC. I know - one can ask why don't these Eastern religious of Latin orders depart the orders and formally transfer to the eparchial presbyterates? I don't know the answer - ask Father Archimandrite Robert or any of several other prominent Jesuits, including the Society's former Father General, but that they serve as they do is sufficiently a blessing in my mind.

Many years,

Neil
Posted By: Apotheoun

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/10/10 08:48 PM

Originally Posted by Irish Melkite
Just a thought. As I look at the turn the thread is taking, I'm struck by the fact that, if we cannot even agree among ourselves as to why our Churches exist, it offers a hint as to the reasons why we don't get respect from Latins.

Many years,

Neil

An even more important question to ask: Why should we care about getting respect from Latin Catholics?
Posted By: Apotheoun

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/10/10 08:50 PM

Originally Posted by StuartK
All Eastern rites of Latin orders should be suppressed because their rule and spirituality are not compatible with true Byzantine monasticism and spirituality. The result is a continual tension and compromise between the rule of the order and the rule of the Tradition--and the rule of the order usually wins.

I agree with this position, but of course I want to see the complete de-Latinization of the Eastern Catholic Churches.
Posted By: Irish Melkite

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/10/10 08:53 PM

Originally Posted by Apotheoun
Originally Posted by Irish Melkite
Just a thought. As I look at the turn the thread is taking, I'm struck by the fact that, if we cannot even agree among ourselves as to why our Churches exist, it offers a hint as to the reasons why we don't get respect from Latins.

Many years,

Neil

An even more important question to ask: Why should we care about getting respect from Latin Catholics?


I care about it because I want them to know and understand what Eastern and Oriental Christians - Catholic and Orthodox - offer to the Apostolic Communions, just as I would hope that we respect our Latin brethen and what they bring to the Lord's Table. If respect is lacking, it gets hard to see beyond that lack and fully appreciate the spirituality in all its aspects.

Many years,

Neil
Posted By: Apotheoun

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/10/10 08:58 PM

Originally Posted by Irish Melkite
Originally Posted by Apotheoun

An even more important question to ask: Why should we care about getting respect from Latin Catholics?


I care about it because I want them to know and understand what Eastern and Oriental Christians - Catholic and Orthodox - offer to the Apostolic Communions, just as I would hope that we respect our Latin brethen and what they bring to the Lord's Table. If respect is lacking, it gets hard to see beyond that lack and fully appreciate the spirituality in all its aspects.

Many years,

Neil

When I was a Roman Catholic I did not care one iota what Eastern Catholics thought about the Apostolic Communion to which I belonged, and since becoming an Eastern Catholic in 2005 I really do not care what Latin Catholics think about the Eastern Churches, or about Eastern Christianity in general.

I found my spiritual home by embracing the liturgical, doctrinal, and spiritual patrimony of the Orthodox East, and so the views of Latin Catholics is not all that important to me.
Posted By: Irish Melkite

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/10/10 09:07 PM

Originally Posted by Apotheoun
Originally Posted by Irish Melkite
Originally Posted by Apotheoun

An even more important question to ask: Why should we care about getting respect from Latin Catholics?


I care about it because I want them to know and understand what Eastern and Oriental Christians - Catholic and Orthodox - offer to the Apostolic Communions, just as I would hope that we respect our Latin brethen and what they bring to the Lord's Table. If respect is lacking, it gets hard to see beyond that lack and fully appreciate the spirituality in all its aspects.

Many years,

Neil

When I was a Roman Catholic I did not care one iota what Eastern Catholics thought about the Apostolic Communion to which I belonged, and since becoming an Eastern Catholic in 2005 I really do not care what Latin Catholics think about the Eastern Churches, or about Eastern Christianity in general.

I found my spiritual home by embracing the liturgical, doctrinal, and spiritual patrimony of the Orthodox East, and so the views of Latin Catholics is not all that important to me.


These are the kinds of arguments that fail on both sides for circuity - which is why I generally avoid them like the plague and will be retiring from this one. I leave it with the thought that we cannot best serve God's peoples or fulfill His mandates in isolation, particularly in this modern world. And, I would submit that one has a duty not only to respect one's Church, but to seek respect for one's Faith and Church and to respect those of the other Apostolic Churches as fellow Christians committed to worship of our common God.

Many years,

Neil
Posted By: Apotheoun

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/10/10 09:11 PM

Respect really is a non-issue. It is best to simply remain faithful to Tradition, and not worry about what other people think.
Posted By: aramis

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/11/10 12:24 AM

Respect requires knowledge; without knowing of the EC's, many RC's will presume us schismatic.

The Romans NEED to be educated, just as much as the EC's need to be educated about Rome, to prevent persecutions triggered in ignorance.
Posted By: Leo XIII

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/11/10 12:27 AM

Apotheoun,

I saw your comment: "I found my spiritual home by embracing the liturgical, doctrinal, and spiritual patrimony of the Orthodox East, and so the views of Latin Catholics is [sic] not all that important to me."

I, too, came from the Roman tradition but adopted that of the East. I disagree with your statement that "views of latin Catholics are not important to me." Are not Latin Catholics our brethren in the Body of Christ? To quote St. Paul: "For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ."

Now I am not happy with everything that goes on in the Latin tradition. That is why I became an Eastern Christian. That said, there are innumerable fine Christians in the Latin tradition, and it is not right to disparage or reject them because their liturgical practice is different from ours. The best way to improve relations with Latin Catholics is, first, to respect them and, second, to live humble, exemplary lives to the best of our ability.

Christians are under tremendous assault in this modern world. We must be charitable to each other, and we must stick together. The Lord does not will that there be differences between Christians. He wants us to be one body.

May the Lord bless you this Theophany.
Posted By: StuartK

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/11/10 12:33 AM

Quote
Respect requires knowledge; without knowing of the EC's, many RC's will presume us schismatic.


Many do.

Quote
The Romans NEED to be educated, just as much as the EC's need to be educated about Rome, to prevent persecutions triggered in ignorance.


I rather think the fish that swim in the sea know a bit more about the sea than the sea knows about the fish.
Posted By: theophan

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/11/10 01:33 AM

Quote
Respect requires knowledge; without knowing of the EC's, many RC's will presume us schismatic.

The Romans NEED to be educated, just as much as the EC's need to be educated about Rome, to prevent persecutions triggered in ignorance.


aramis:

Christ is Born!!

Would that this would be so or that it would happen. But don't hold your breath.

The incredible lack of catechesis on some of the most basic doctrines of the Catholic Faith aren't being taught in the catechetical programs currently in place. So how is there any hope for people to gain something beyond the basics--like the fact that there are Catholics who have a different liturgical and spiritual approach to the Mystery of God coming aomong us?

If people don't understand and believe things like the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, or aren't schooled in things like prayer--that it needs to be done throughout the week and on a regular basis--the idea that there are actions that are "sin" and that "sin" carries consequences, how would we expect them to understand the concept of Eastern Catholics?

I base my poor assessment on my own children who spent their first eight years in Catholic school, went to every program offered in our parish, and from all appearances are unusual in that they both married in the Church and they are their spouses are regular attendees at Sunday and Feast day liturgy. And I've taken every opportunity in their formative years to bring up topics above and beyond what they were taught in parish-based programs.

Sorry to vent tonight, but I'm wondering if I've wasted my time.

BOB
Posted By: Apotheoun

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/11/10 02:03 AM

Originally Posted by Leo XIII
I, too, came from the Roman tradition but adopted that of the East. I disagree with your statement that "views of latin Catholics are not important to me."

As a young man I used to worry about what other people thought of me, but during a talk I had with my grandfather - shortly before his death from lung cancer - he said something that has stuck with me ever since:

"During my more than 70 years upon this earth I have noticed something . . . a man who seeks respect from others rarely gets it, while a man who simply remains true to his principles tends to be respected."

The Eastern Catholic Churches should be faithful to their liturgical and doctrinal patrimony, and not worry about respect from Latin Catholics, or from any other group.
Posted By: likethethief

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/11/10 02:18 AM

Originally Posted by Leo XIII

Christians are under tremendous assault in this modern world. We must be charitable to each other, and we must stick together. The Lord does not will that there be differences between Christians. He wants us to be one body.


I have the same thought.
Posted By: Collin Nunis

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/11/10 08:25 AM

Exactly. Whether I like it or not, that is how we're going to have to work. At the moment, churches are being attacked by Muslim government arsonists in Malaysia and Christians, irrespective of denomination are coming together to pray for peace.
Posted By: mardukm

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/11/10 10:29 AM

Dear brother Neil,

Originally Posted by Irish Melkite
The idea of the EC/OC Churches as 'bridges' between Orthodoxy and Catholicism is a failed one. Despite the fact that the concept virtually never worked, the notion was still being parroted until the 60's or 70's. There was a decided lack of subtlety that usually took the form of those advancing it going on to say 'it gives those Orthodox who want to convert a place that's familiar, where they can feel comfortable'. It was part and parcel of everything that the Orthodox found distasreful about 'uniatism' and contributed significantly to the long delay in our Churches being fully acknowledged as true ecclesial entities, rather than just 'rites'.

I've only been Catholic about 4 years, so I really don't have the experience, complaints or prejudices that some cradle Eastern and Oriental Catholics may have against the Western Church. I don't see the "bridge" concept as an agenda to convert Orthodox to Catholicism. I see the only agenda in the "bridge" concept to be the one that builds understanding. I don't believe anyone who takes on the identity of an "Orthodox in communion with Rome" (such as I do) should be interested in making converts, but should rather be interested in strengthening familial ties.

Quote
If you want evidence that even Rome understands that the 'bridge' role has no underpinnings just consider the fact that most discussions between Orthodoxy and Catholicism have occured with the Catholic side represented solely by Latins. If we were truly a 'bridge', we'd have been sitting in the middle of those; as it has been, our presence has instead been deemed a roadblock and, therefore, we have often, until very recently, not even been invited.

Was that circumstance in the past due to the complaints of the Orthodox or the initiative of the Latins?

Quote
Today, those who still put forth the bridge concept as a viable role for us are generally the same folks who have no trouble accepting second-class status for our Churches in the Catholic Communion and see ultimate unity of the Catholic and Orthodox Communions coming about, not on equal terms, but via submission.

As stated, I am not a cradle Catholic, so I have no concept of what you are saying. My interest has always and only been to promote understanding.

Quote
Call my Church a witness - but not a bridge.

Churches are not bridges, they are homes. Individual people are bridges.

Blessings,
Marduk
Posted By: Michael_Thoma

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/11/10 01:41 PM

Quote
If you want evidence that even Rome understands that the 'bridge' role has no underpinnings just consider the fact that most discussions between Orthodoxy and Catholicism have occured with the Catholic side represented solely by Latins. If we were truly a 'bridge', we'd have been sitting in the middle of those; as it has been, our presence has instead been deemed a roadblock and, therefore, we have often, until very recently, not even been invited.
This may be the case with the two Western Churches - the Eastern Orthodox and the Latin Church - but within the Churches in the Middle East and further East, the Eastern Catholic Churches have not only been involved, but have been catalysts for discussion and union - e.g. Chaldeans and Assyrians, Syriac Orthodox and Syriac Catholics, Syro-Malankara Catholics and the Syriac Orthodox in India.
Posted By: theophan

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/11/10 10:11 PM

Quote
Churches are not bridges, they are homes. Individual people are bridges.


Marduk:

Christ is in our midst!!

Well put!!

BOB
Posted By: Precentrix

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/11/10 10:48 PM

Maybe, just maybe, it is important to earn the 'respect' and understanding of us Latins because we're much more likely to get a vague understanding of Orthodox theology from those in communion with us than from elsewhere?

You are right that the most important thing is to remain faithful to the Tradition handed down, but equally important is to spread what has been handed down to us. It has always been my impression that the Church needs both the inquisitive attitude of the West and the sense of mystery preserved by the East (and sadly thrown out entirely by most Latin churches these days!). Maybe respect isn't the issue, but most of my 'Roman' friends don't even have a clue that the other rites exist within our communion and know next to nothing about the Orthodox at all. Since we all ought to be searching for Truth, I don't think that's an ideal state of affairs...

Roll on reunification, but for any oecumenical dialogue we need to know where we are coming from, and to whom we are speaking. It would help a lot.
Posted By: StuartK

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/12/10 12:43 AM

Actually, the only thing we have to do is be true to our own Tradition, defending it against all illegitimate impositions, "even to the point of schism", to quote Father Lawrence Cross, and to patiently explain, over and over again, whenever someone is ignorant or misunderstands.

As for the so-called "inquisitive" nature of the Western Church, let's remember that for the first 1000 years or so, there was no distinctive Latin school of theology. It was Rome's reflexive conservatism that made it the final authority on the orthodoxy of any new teaching or expression. For a whole millennium, Rome had barely an original idea of its own--and things were good.

Most trouble began when Rome abandoned its traditional role of conservator, and decided that it not only could become a theological innovator, but that it could use its position as Church With Priority to declare those innovations to be normative and attempt to impose them on other Churches.

Also, people cannot be bridges, but people can be witnesses. It is the witness that bridges the gaps.
Posted By: Utroque

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/12/10 03:15 AM

People can, and are, in fact bridge builders - Pontifexes, if you will. By doing this they witness in a very effective and holy way. What you have said above, I find not only largely untrue, but alienating.
Posted By: theophan

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/12/10 08:42 PM

Do you think the lack of respect comes from something cultural? It seems to me, from my work with families, that few people have any respect for each other in the family let alone having respect for people in their own community. So how is it that we wonder about respect from one group to another?

I don't know if it's age or what it is, but I find working with the public more and more difficult with each passing year.

BOB
Posted By: Alice

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/13/10 12:46 AM

Originally Posted by theophan
Do you think the lack of respect comes from something cultural? It seems to me, from my work with families, that few people have any respect for each other in the family let alone having respect for people in their own community. So how is it that we wonder about respect from one group to another?

I don't know if it's age or what it is, but I find working with the public more and more difficult with each passing year.

BOB


Dear BOB,

It could be that, since you are a spiritually mature Christian man who has full knowledge of the seriousness of living a good life and the importance of dying in God's grace, that you find the pettiness which people have intolerable.

My priest was telling us something like that the other day. He is very serious about death and salvation, and he spends much energy ministering to the ill and the dying, as well as to their families. Right now, for instance, in the parish, he has three parisioners, one a teen, one a young married man, and one an older man, dying from cancer. He said that in comparison, he then finds it difficult to minister to the silly petty squabbles and gripes which parishioner families have with each other.

Alice
Posted By: Stephanos I

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/13/10 01:26 AM

My sentiments exactly Alice! My problem is I usually tell them too.
Stephanos I
Posted By: theophan

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/13/10 02:59 PM

Quote
. . . full knowledge of the seriousness of living a good life and the importance of dying in God's grace . . .


ALICE:

Christ is Born!! Christ is in our midst!!

I'm humbled. I don't know if that fits me, but I try to live my life before the Face of Christ at every step of the way. The things that I see and hear about people disrespecting their parents, their spouses, their children, their neighbors, their employees--I don't know but it seems to be an epidemic. So my question to my Eastern Catholic and Orthodox brethren was simply borne of observations made over decades of work and living. If we cannot respect each otehr in the family, in the parish, in our own wider Churches, how can we even begin to think we will receive respect from those who still have an "us vs. them" mentality.

Seems to me it's akin to my example of inheritance. Four children are at their mother's wake. She has exactly $1.00 in her estate. Rather than go somehwere and get four quareters and share them, they retreat to the four corners of the room and threaten to beat each other to death for the whole $1.00. Same thing for groups. Rather than reach out in respect and try to learn about, understand, support, and encourage, the tendency is to beat the other group to death--or at least into our own mold.

Father Stephanos--

So true. And I applaud you for your example. When you consider the cross someone else carries--suffering, death of a loved one, etc.--some of the stuff people fight over is enough to make one ill.

BOB
Posted By: Kathleen Elsie

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/14/10 12:00 AM

Originally Posted by Apotheoun
Originally Posted by Irish Melkite
Just a thought. As I look at the turn the thread is taking, I'm struck by the fact that, if we cannot even agree among ourselves as to why our Churches exist, it offers a hint as to the reasons why we don't get respect from Latins.

Many years,

Neil

An even more important question to ask: Why should we care about getting respect from Latin Catholics?


From my experience they don't respect themselves. So why would anyone expect them to respect others.
One think I have told my children and grandchildren is that if you want others to respect you you must firt be able to respect yourself.
Posted By: Tom Lyman

Re: no respect from Latin Rite Catholics - 01/18/10 06:58 AM

I think this attitude is a combination of misunderstanding on the Latins' part of what the Eastern churches are, and the Eastern churches' members feeling perpetually distanced because of the fact that they merely practice a form of the same Faith that is different from the Western heritage.

I started worshiping in a Melkite church when I lived in New Jersey a couple of years ago and even after explaining to my mom "They're in union with the Pope,it's just different customs around the same Eucharist" she still immediately asked "but they're Catholic right?"...I think I understand where you're coming from if I, as a Latin, may say so smile
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