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Patronally Titled Jurisdictions - One Bishop, One City

Posted By: StuartK

Patronally Titled Jurisdictions - One Bishop, One City - 04/12/10 10:38 PM

When did we stop giving non-geographic names to dioceses and eparchies? Frankly, this is a lot like the corporate logos that go up on sports stadiums these days. What would be wrong with simply calling it the Syrian Catholic Eparchy of Los Angeles?
Posted By: Fr. Deacon Lance

Re: Patronally Titled Jurisdictions - One Bishop, One City - 04/12/10 10:49 PM

I believe it is Rome's way of techincally not assigning two bishops to the same See.
Posted By: StuartK

Re: Patronally Titled Jurisdictions - One Bishop, One City - 04/12/10 11:13 PM

I hope they got all those patron saints to cough up some big money for the naming rights. If they wanted, however, they could simply have called it "The Diocese of the West", following the example of the OCA.

And, while we're at it, the Metropolia should rationalize its eparchial boundaries, which have a gerrymandered look to them.
Posted By: Erie Byz

Re: Patronally Titled Jurisdictions - One Bishop, One City - 04/12/10 11:56 PM

Maybe I'm a little off today, but Stuart and I agree again, and twice at that!

Isn't the Syrian Eparchy based out of Newark though?
Posted By: Fr Serge Keleher

Re: Patronally Titled Jurisdictions - One Bishop, One City - 04/13/10 01:00 PM

Hmmm . . . Newark, which is no earthly paradise, could certainly do with some deliverance!

Meanwhile, I think - and I may be mistaken - that the first of these oddly named dioceses is the Eparchy of Saint Nicholas in Chicago.

If avoiding the appearance of having more than one bishop in one city was the object of this silly exercise, it has failed. Philadelphia has two Archbishops (Byzantine and Latin); Pittsburgh has an Archbishop (Byzantine) and a bishop (Latin), Toronto has an Archbishop (Latin) and a bishop (Byzantine) - the grand champion, at least in the Western Hemisphere, must be Winnipeg / St Boniface, which has THREE residential Catholic Archbishops: French, Irish, and Byzantine-Ukrainian. Wild.

Fr. Serge
Posted By: Polish American

Re: Patronally Titled Jurisdictions - One Bishop, One City - 04/13/10 03:04 PM

The metropolitan Cleveland area has 3 bishops - one Roman Catholic in the city, one Byzantine Catholic in the suburb of Parma, and a Ukrainian Catholic in Parma. Not too far away is the city of Canton where there is a Romanian Catholic bishop.
We are truly blessed!
Posted By: Paul B

Re: Patronally Titled Jurisdictions - One Bishop, One City - 04/13/10 04:01 PM

It must make up for your football team. biggrin
Posted By: StuartK

Re: Patronally Titled Jurisdictions - One Bishop, One City - 04/13/10 04:57 PM

Indeed, the ratio of bishops to faithful increases by the day.
Posted By: Economos Roman V. Russo

Re: Patronally Titled Jurisdictions - One Bishop, One City - 04/15/10 10:29 PM

The exarchate used to be based in Newark; then, as an eparchy, in Union City NJ. Now, it is in Bayonne, NJ.
Posted By: Economos Roman V. Russo

Re: Patronally Titled Jurisdictions - One Bishop, One City - 04/15/10 10:34 PM

Archbishop Joseph Tawil of blessed memory refused the title of his eparchy (Eparchy of Our Lady of the Annunciation) when it was proferred. He insisted on a geographical title and Rome provided one: The Eparchy of Newton for the Melkites in the United States of America.
In the same vein let's not forget L'vov which, at one time, had three Metropolitan Archbishops: Armenian, Latin (Polish) and Greek Catholic (Ukrainian). I believe that the latter two survive.
Posted By: StuartK

Re: Patronally Titled Jurisdictions - One Bishop, One City - 04/15/10 11:22 PM

May the Lord continue to bestow his blessings upon his departed servant, the Bishop Joseph!
Posted By: Collin Nunis

Re: Patronally Titled Jurisdictions - One Bishop, One City - 04/16/10 06:04 PM

Gosh, in the Catholic province of Sydney, the list goes:-

i) Archbishop (Latin)
ii) Archbishop (Maronite - Eparchy of St. Maroun)
iii) Archbishop (Melkite - Eparchy of St. Michael the Archangel)'
iv) Archbishop (Chaldean - Eparchy of St. Thomas the Apostle)

Somebody needs to give them geographical names. Unfortunately, with the Arab population concentrated in one area, the title "Eparchy of Redfern" will be coveted. Other suburbs we can suggest would be "Bankstown", "Guildford", or "Greenacre". :p
Posted By: StuartK

Re: Patronally Titled Jurisdictions - One Bishop, One City - 04/16/10 11:00 PM

They can play doubles together. Or make a foursome for golf.
Posted By: Philippe Gebara

Re: Patronally Titled Jurisdictions - One Bishop, One City - 07/22/10 03:44 AM

Originally Posted by Fr Serge Keleher
Hmmm . . . Newark, which is no earthly paradise, could certainly do with some deliverance!

Meanwhile, I think - and I may be mistaken - that the first of these oddly named dioceses is the Eparchy of Saint Nicholas in Chicago.

If avoiding the appearance of having more than one bishop in one city was the object of this silly exercise, it has failed. Philadelphia has two Archbishops (Byzantine and Latin); Pittsburgh has an Archbishop (Byzantine) and a bishop (Latin), Toronto has an Archbishop (Latin) and a bishop (Byzantine) - the grand champion, at least in the Western Hemisphere, must be Winnipeg / St Boniface, which has THREE residential Catholic Archbishops: French, Irish, and Byzantine-Ukrainian. Wild.

Fr. Serge


São Paulo, Brazil, has presently 4 Catholic bishops:

- Melkite
- Maronite
- Armenian
- Latin

Curiously, the Melkite Eparchy of Brazil mixed the both options, geographic and patron saint: being in the neighbourhood of "Paraíso", it's called Our Lady of Paradise in São Paulo of the Greek-Melkites.

Why not call a see by the name of a patron saint?

It seems all diocesis has the name of a patron saint and the geographic location, as the Latin Diocese of Rio de Janeiro: Arquidiocesis of St. Sebastian of Rio de Janeiro.

Eis polla eti, Despota Yousif!
Posted By: Carson Daniel

Re: Patronally Titled Jurisdictions - One Bishop, One City - 07/22/10 06:44 PM

With the good forward looking leadership of our bishops we should soon have one for every priest and one for every two lay members.
Posted By: Dr. Eric

Re: Patronally Titled Jurisdictions - One Bishop, One City - 07/28/10 03:33 AM

Someone needs to list how many Bishops of Jerusalem there are.
Posted By: Irish Melkite

Re: Patronally Titled Jurisdictions - One Bishop, One City - 07/28/10 05:02 AM

Originally Posted by Dr. Eric
Someone needs to list how many Bishops of Jerusalem there are.


You really want to know?

There are 10 (an 11th is questionably extant) canonical jurisdictions among the Catholic, Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, and Assyrian Churches, but only 7 of the 10 sees are of episcopal rank (the questionable one is also of episcopal rank, if it is extant):

... 4 Oriental Orthodox, 1 Eastern Orthodox, 1 Assyrian (ACOE, questionable), 1 Latin Catholic, 2 Oriental Catholic (both patriarchal exarchates, neither headed by a bishop), 1 Maronite Catholic (a patriarchal exarchate, not headed by a bishop), and 1 Eastern Catholic

Ancient Church of the East: Jerusalem Archbishopric of the Holy Land & Mount Of Olives
(not sure if this is extant, it doesn't appear in the current list of the ACOE's Holy Snynod)

Armenian Apostolic: Patriarchate of St James in Jerusalem

Armenian Catholic: Patriarchal Exarchate of Amman & Jerusalem

Coptic Orthodox: Metropolitan Archbishopic of the Holy and Great City of Our Lord, Jerusalem, Holy Zion, All Palestine, Philadelphia of Jordan, & All the Near East

Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahado: Archbishopric of Jerusalem

Greek Orthodox: Patriarchate of Jerusalem

Latin: Patriarchate of Jerusalem of the Latins

Maronite: Patriarchal Exarchate of Jerusalem & Palestine

Melkite: Patriarchal Archdiocese of Jerusalem of the Melkites

Syriac Catholic: Patriarchal Exarchate of Jerusalem & Amman

Syriac Orthodox: Metropolitan Patriarchal-Vicariate of Jerusalem & Jordan

Several other Churches (MP/ROC and Romanian OC come to mind) have a formal presence, but the ranking prelate is an archimandrite and these are not, as far as I know, formally titled jurisdictions.

Many years,

Neil
Posted By: ag_vn

Re: Patronally Titled Jurisdictions - One Bishop, One City - 07/28/10 07:44 AM

Originally Posted by Irish Melkite


There are 10 (an 11th is questionably extant) canonical jurisdictions among the Catholic, Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, and Assyrian Churches, but only 7 of the 10 sees are of episcopal rank (the questionable one is also of episcopal rank, if it is extant):

... 4 Oriental Orthodox, 1 Eastern Orthodox, 1 Assyrian (ACOE, questionable), 1 Latin Catholic, 2 Oriental Catholic (both patriarchal exarchates, neither headed by a bishop), 1 Maronite Catholic (a patriarchal exarchate, not headed by a bishop), and 1 Eastern Catholic


I think only the Armenian Catholic Patriarchal Exarchate is not headed by a bishop.

As far as I know the Syriac Catholic Patriarchal Exarch is Bishop Pierre Melki and the Maronite Archbishop of Haifa Paul Nabil Sayyah is also Patriarchal vicar for Jerusalem.

By the way, there is also an Anglican and a Lutheran bishop of Jerusalem, currently both are Palestinians.
Posted By: Irish Melkite

Re: Patronally Titled Jurisdictions - One Bishop, One City - 07/28/10 09:30 AM

Originally Posted by ag vn
I think only the Armenian Catholic Patriarchal Exarchate is not headed by a bishop.

As far as I know the Syriac Catholic Patriarchal Exarch is Bishop Pierre Melki and the Maronite Archbishop of Haifa Paul Nabil Sayyah is also Patriarchal vicar for Jerusalem.



While the Maronite and Syriac Catholic jurisdictions may be headed by bishops presently, neither is a canonical jurisdiction of episcopal status (one that requires that it be headed by a bishop).

Jerusalem is not within the 'historical bounds' of the Maronite or Syriac patriarchates and, therefore, neither Church can erect a canonical jurisdiction of episcopal right there - to do so requires the approval of Rome.

Thus, the two (and that of the Armenians) are styled as patriarchal exarchates. The sole EC/OC Church with jurisdictional authority in Jerusalem is that of the Melkites - derived from the extension of office conferred on Maximos III Mazloom - to be 'of Alexandria & of Jerusalem'.

The Maronite Patriarchal site indeed combines the Patriarchal Vicariate of Jerusalem & Palestine with Sayedna Boulos' Archeparchy of Haifa and the Holy Land in its list of jurisdictions. However, the last edition of Annuario Pontificio that I consulted showed no bishop for the former. Checking just now, I see that David Cheney's Catholic-Hierarchy.org, which relies on the AP for its listings of Sees, also does not report it as such.

Mar Pierre is an Auxiliary of Antioch of the Syrians and it has not been uncommon in the past for the Melkites, Maronites, and Syrians to assign patriarchal auxiliaries to head up the various patriarchal dependencies, vicariates, and exarchates. Since the Syriacs don't have a synodal listing on-line (or even a website, regretably), I can't determine his assignment(s). However, as with the Maronite jurisdiction, there is no bishop formally cited as assigned there and it is also not documented as a canonical jurisdiction of episcopal status.

Many years,

Neil
Posted By: ag_vn

Re: Patronally Titled Jurisdictions - One Bishop, One City - 07/28/10 10:08 AM

Yes, I know Patriarchal Exarchs/Vicars, etc. are not titled "of Jerusalem", they are bishops of other sees. But in common Paschal and/or Christmas messages of the heads of the churches in the Holy Land, namely Bishop Pierre Melki and Archbishop Nabil Sayyah sign for the respective Exarchates.

http://www.gcatholic.com/dioceses/diocese/jeru4.htm

http://www.gcatholic.com/dioceses/diocese/jeru5.htm
Posted By: Irish Melkite

Re: Patronally Titled Jurisdictions - One Bishop, One City - 07/28/10 10:32 AM



Chow includes the representative of the Chaldeans, about whom I had forgotten. It is a patriarchal exarchate or dependency (I forget which) headed by a chorepiscopus. So, the count is up to 11 or 12, overall, without including the Lutheran and Anglican hierarchs (and I think another Protestant church has a bishop there as well.)

Many years,

Neil
Posted By: Dr. Eric

Re: Patronally Titled Jurisdictions - One Bishop, One City - 07/28/10 05:57 PM

I think the One Bishop, One City idea, while valid, is no longer appropriate. The cities of today are too big. Only one bishop for the 8 million Catholics who live in Mexico City proper, not counting the suburbs?
Posted By: StuartK

Re: Patronally Titled Jurisdictions - One Bishop, One City - 07/29/10 02:10 AM

Oh, I think you could certainly break up the larger urban dioceses into smaller ones based on boundaries prior to modern incorporation. For instance, the Archdiocese of New York could be broken down not just according to the five boroughs, but each borough could be broken down based on the townships from which they were amalgamated. One could be, e.g., Bishop of Flatbush, or of Bensonhurst, or of Brooklyn (which was just one town in the County of Kings); Queens offers a wealth of possibilities: Flushing, Astoria (probably reserved for the Greeks), Rockaway (a good part time post for a bishop who only serves in the summer). Even Manhattan can be broken down.

I think you could do the same to almost any modern city, because modern metropolitan areas are much larger than their forebears. Moreover, this is the pastorally prudent thing to do, since a bishop ought to be familiar with and to his flock, and that's hard to do if he's responsible for a million or more souls. I've frequently said that industrial scale Christianity does not work.

This is not likely to be a popular idea, since it is administratively and politically advantageous to keep down the number of dioceses--less overhead, and the importance of an individual bishop is proportional to the number of other bishops with whom he must share responsibility.
Posted By: Irish Melkite

Re: Patronally Titled Jurisdictions - One Bishop, One City - 07/29/10 07:14 AM

Stuart,

While I don't disagree entirely with what you've suggested, another limiting factor is finding a satisfactory number of qualified presbyters to fill the additional Sees.

Many years,

Neil
Posted By: Fr Serge Keleher

Re: Patronally Titled Jurisdictions - One Bishop, One City - 07/29/10 03:06 PM

Bishop of Flatbush? I'm afraid this could (and would) provoke considerable mirth. Maybe "Deliverance from Flatbush"!

Fr. Serge
Posted By: StuartK

Re: Patronally Titled Jurisdictions - One Bishop, One City - 07/29/10 05:31 PM

If Flatbush won't serve, Bishop of Bensonhurst is nicely alliterative. But if Astoria is reserved for the Greeks, then Brighton Beach belongs to the Russians.
Posted By: MarkosC

Re: Patronally Titled Jurisdictions - One Bishop, One City - 07/30/10 05:59 AM

If memory serves me right, what we'd now call Northwest Africa (Carthage and the surrounding area- a major economic center in the Western Mediterranean) had hundreds of Bishops during Late Antiquity. These bishops served what we now would call towns.

Some of this can still be seen in some diocesan structures. Cyprus I believe has 17 bishops. On mainland Greece, apparently insignificant towns have bishops - I can think of Edessa or the bustling metropolis of Ierissos on the Halkidiki Penninsula. The latter jurisdiction's non-monastic population consists of probably around one dozen villages and is probably only a little bigger than Rhode Island. Still, I believe that See is over 1000 years old (predating recorded history of its significant monastic population) and that the area probably has more people now than it ever did.

But these are just my impressions. If anyone has reference to hard fact, feel free to chime in.
Posted By: Fr Serge Keleher

Re: Patronally Titled Jurisdictions - One Bishop, One City - 07/30/10 09:45 AM

Maybe there could be a Bishop of Bay Ridge?

Fr. Serge
Posted By: Diak

Re: Patronally Titled Jurisdictions - One Bishop, One City - 07/30/10 01:12 PM

"His Grace (N.), Bishop of Yonkers and All Lands Beyond the Hudson..."
Posted By: aramis

Re: Patronally Titled Jurisdictions - One Bishop, One City - 07/30/10 08:44 PM

The problem with multiple bishops in a metropolitan area is the high rate of movement of residence within a metro area, whilst still not leaving the metro.

That leads to both parish shopping (already a problem) and discontinuity of praxis (also a problem). The greater Bay area in CA has several dioceses; there are notable discontinuities there, and people complain about them. People drive 40+ miles and across the diocesan boundary. And that ignores the ECC's.

Discontinuity of praxis can be reduced by deaneries/vicarates-forane to handle the administrative issues and advise the bishops; this has become standard in some large Catholic and some Orthodox dioceses.
Posted By: JBenedict

Re: Patronally Titled Jurisdictions - One Bishop, One City - 07/31/10 04:14 AM

Intentionally a bit vague...

I live in a diocese different from where I usually go to Church. Our major metro area is split. If I went one or two train stops further east, I'd be in a third diocese.

This is one city, I know lots of people who move between the dioceses for work or school or to see friends.

This leads to pastoral problems. We had a recent petition to the bishop denied because the signers don't live in his diocese. Well they live in neighboring dioceses and when they signed the petition it was before or after attending Mass in his diocese, because, they live some great portion of their lives here, for work or for pleasure.
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