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Pope Benedict Gifted Papal Tiara - By The Orthodox?!

Posted By: Logos - Alexis

Pope Benedict Gifted Papal Tiara - By The Orthodox?! - 05/26/11 03:47 AM

[Linked Image]

The story was found here: http://www.newliturgicalmovement.org/#3866293413795006812

...but links to this story about how a German Catholic businessman commissioned the papal tiara, which was created by a Bulgarian Orthodox liturgical studio. Catholics and Orthodox presented it to His Holiness while on pilgrimage in Rome.

Before this, I thought we'd never see Pope Benedict bring back the papal tiara, but now, I honestly feel like he'll use it - eventually. I notice the design cleverly incorporates what seems to be favorite shades of purple and red, and the leaflets in the crowns are seashells, the same as his papal coat of arms.

I just feel like he's too much of a gentleman and has enough of an interest in bringing back some momentarily-forgotten papal vestiture not to wear this.

Woo hoo! I think it's cool.

Alexis
Posted By: Otsheylnik

Re: Pope Benedict Gifted Papal Tiara - By The Orthodox?! - 05/26/11 04:50 AM

I love it.
Posted By: StuartK

Re: Pope Benedict Gifted Papal Tiara - By The Orthodox?! - 05/26/11 11:08 AM

However, having renounced the title of Patriarch of the West, should he not have one of the gold circlets removed from the tiara?
Posted By: Otsheylnik

Re: Pope Benedict Gifted Papal Tiara - By The Orthodox?! - 05/26/11 12:18 PM

I should suggest he should reinstate the title. If the hat fits wink
Posted By: Otsheylnik

Re: Pope Benedict Gifted Papal Tiara - By The Orthodox?! - 05/26/11 12:22 PM

Seriously, returning to the symbolism, pageantry and titles of the traditional Church will only aid rapprochment with Orthodox who know about such things, who never wanted the title patriarch fo the west dropped anyway.

Bring on tiaras, buskins and ceremonial vesting of roman popes and bishops!
Posted By: JDC

Re: Pope Benedict Gifted Papal Tiara - By The Orthodox?! - 05/26/11 12:26 PM

Originally Posted by StuartK
However, having renounced the title of Patriarch of the West, should he not have one of the gold circlets removed from the tiara?


Did he renounce it quite, or just stop using it?
Posted By: Logos - Alexis

Re: Pope Benedict Gifted Papal Tiara - By The Orthodox?! - 05/26/11 09:29 PM

I don't think the papal tiara has anything to do with the title of Patriarch of the West at all, which as a side note, I'm fine with being dropped.

Alexis
Posted By: StuartK

Re: Pope Benedict Gifted Papal Tiara - By The Orthodox?! - 05/26/11 10:29 PM

The three golden circlets supposedly represented the three levels of the Pope's jurisdiction: Bishop of Rome, Patriarch of the West, and Pope of Rome.
Posted By: Logos - Alexis

Re: Pope Benedict Gifted Papal Tiara - By The Orthodox?! - 05/27/11 01:30 AM

Supposedly according to who? What I seem to have come across (and I admit to having known once more concretely and having since forgotten) is that an one crown symbolizes spiritual power, one crown symbolizes temporal power, and the third is, well, just because it looks like or because Catholics, like Orthodox and other Apostolic Christians, just generally like things that come in threes.

Alexis
Posted By: Utroque

Re: Pope Benedict Gifted Papal Tiara - By The Orthodox?! - 05/27/11 03:03 AM

“Accipe thiaram tribus coronis ornatam, et scias te esse Patrem Principum et Regum, Rectorem Orbis, in terra Vicarium Salvatoris Nostri Jesu Christi, cui est honor et gloria in sæcula sæculorum.”

Now I know why the humble servant of God, P. Paul VI, placed it on the altar steps of St Peter's never to take it up again. I would be very surprised if P. Benedict XVI actually wore this beautiful thing. He chose not to put it on his coat of arms. I believe it has been replaced by the simple bishop's mitre.
Posted By: StuartK

Re: Pope Benedict Gifted Papal Tiara - By The Orthodox?! - 05/27/11 03:41 AM

Our hats still rule. Ruthenians should give it a try.
Posted By: sielos ilgesys

Re: Pope Benedict Gifted Papal Tiara - By The Orthodox?! - 05/27/11 12:59 PM

His Holiness and I have at least 1 thing in common: apparently he likes hats (that tiara is might snazzy) and I believe he has worn the camauro on some occasions, like Bl. Pope John XXIII did.

I like hats, too - but I prefer cowboy hats and "gimme" caps.

By the way, did the Holy Father recently appear in public wearing the fanon over his other sacred vestments?
Posted By: JimG

Re: Pope Benedict Gifted Papal Tiara - By The Orthodox?! - 05/27/11 02:34 PM

They or going to have to get a bed topper on that popemobile if he is going to wear that thing. I looks like they could tip it upside down and use it for a wine cooler. It is too bad that wealthy German businessmen don't have better things to do with their money. Given some of the comments I have seen on some of the Orthodox sites recently, that Orthodox craftsman better get to confession right away because making a tiara for the heretic Pope is certainly blasphemy if not something worse.
Posted By: Pani Rose

Re: Pope Benedict Gifted Papal Tiara - By The Orthodox?! - 05/27/11 03:06 PM

All I can think is headache!
Posted By: StuartK

Re: Pope Benedict Gifted Papal Tiara - By The Orthodox?! - 05/27/11 05:14 PM

Quote
It is too bad that wealthy German businessmen don't have better things to do with their money.


Just remember the first guy who said, "We could have spent that on the poor".
Posted By: StuartK

Re: Pope Benedict Gifted Papal Tiara - By The Orthodox?! - 05/27/11 05:15 PM

Quote
Given some of the comments I have seen on some of the Orthodox sites recently, that Orthodox craftsman better get to confession right away because making a tiara for the heretic Pope is certainly blasphemy if not something worse.


Well, considering how many of the great cathedrals of Orthodoxy were built by heretic Italian architects, I don't think this pot can call the kettle black.
Posted By: JimG

Re: Pope Benedict Gifted Papal Tiara - By The Orthodox?! - 05/27/11 06:19 PM

Originally Posted by StuartK
Quote
It is too bad that wealthy German businessmen don't have better things to do with their money.


Just remember the first guy who said, "We could have spent that on the poor".


I might have been thinking along the lines of a Mercedes or Porsche. In any case a golden bejeweled tiara is not generally of much use to the poor.

I wonder if the fellow inquired of the Pope as to whether he wanted to resolve a wardrobe deficiency. The president of my university decided to thank a wealthy Chinese business man who has been a generous donor with a pair of rare Chinese elk of some kind for the donor's Texas ranch. Unfortunately, the president for got to ask what kind of ranch it was. Much to his embarrassment it turns out to be a hunting ranch, an, at best, inappropriate venue for rare animal species. Needless to say the donor refused the gift. So now we are faced with 20% budget cuts and the question of what to do with the two rare Chinese elk we own. Two intractable problems in the same year.

Maybe that look on the Pope's face is more one of astonishment than of joy.
Posted By: griego catolico

Re: Pope Benedict Gifted Papal Tiara - By The Orthodox?! - 05/27/11 08:25 PM

Originally Posted by StuartK
Quote
Given some of the comments I have seen on some of the Orthodox sites recently, that Orthodox craftsman better get to confession right away because making a tiara for the heretic Pope is certainly blasphemy if not something worse.


Well, considering how many of the great cathedrals of Orthodoxy were built by heretic Italian architects, I don't think this pot can call the kettle black.


Ha, ha, ha!! Agreed. grin

I'm interested to know what will happen to this tiara.
It may be put in the Papal Sacristy where the other tiaras are kept.

I have this image in my head of His Holiness sneaking out in the middle of the night to where the tiara is kept and putting it on his head while in front of a mirror. "Oh, just one time", he says to himself. ha, ha smile
Posted By: Fr Serge Keleher

Re: Pope Benedict Gifted Papal Tiara - By The Orthodox?! - 05/27/11 10:30 PM

When Blessed John XXIII gave away his own papal tiara, he announced that he was giving it "the poor of the world" - which turned out to mean Francis Cardinal Spellman (not known, surely, for his great poverty?) The result was a full-sixed wax work image of the Pope, tucked away by one of the sides of the High Altar. The first time I saw it I was so scared that I nearly screamed aloud, but managed to control myself. Don't honestly know if it is still there.


Fr. Serge
Posted By: StuartK

Re: Pope Benedict Gifted Papal Tiara - By The Orthodox?! - 05/27/11 11:05 PM

The tiara--or one of them, at least--is now on display in the Memorial Hall of the Basilica Church of the Shrine of the Immaculate Conception in Washington.
Posted By: Logos - Alexis

Re: Pope Benedict Gifted Papal Tiara - By The Orthodox?! - 05/28/11 12:28 AM

Originally Posted by JimG
It looks like they could tip it upside down and use it for a wine cooler.


Yeah and an eastern bishop's mitre looks like an ornamented chef's hat, so what?

Alexis
Posted By: Logos - Alexis

Re: Pope Benedict Gifted Papal Tiara - By The Orthodox?! - 05/28/11 12:34 AM

Oh and Jim, the popemobile wouldn't have to be altered at all as the tiara is only worn at certain liturgical functions (like a papal coronation) and sometimes when the pope is wearing his mantum. He wouldn't wear the tiara with his white cassock. The pope doesn't use the popemobile in the same way popes used the sedia gestatoria (one of the difference being the sedia allowed the faithful to see His Holiness, whereas the popemobile offers very limited visibility, and behind bulletproof glass).

Bring back the sedia! Its' a gesture of mercy towards the faithful! Unfortunately I think in the post-Ali Agca days the idea isn't the best, but that only pertains to the outside. Use the sedia inside St. Peter's!

Alexis
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Pope Benedict Gifted Papal Tiara - By The Orthodox?! - 06/03/11 08:08 PM

Originally Posted by JimG
Given some of the comments I have seen on some of the Orthodox sites recently, that Orthodox craftsman better get to confession right away because making a tiara for the heretic Pope is certainly blasphemy if not something worse.


I haven't seen those comments, but it doesn't surprise me.

On the other hand some, like Fr. Z, are calling that event a "True ecumenical gesture".
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Pope Benedict Gifted Papal Tiara - By The Orthodox?! - 06/03/11 09:03 PM

Originally Posted by JDC
Originally Posted by StuartK
However, having renounced the title of Patriarch of the West, should he not have one of the gold circlets removed from the tiara?


Did he renounce it quite, or just stop using it?


That title first appeared in the Annuario Pontificio in 1863, so dropping it from that publication wasn't any big deal in and of itself. However, subsequent statements from the Vatican has suggested that Pope Benedict hasn't just removed it from the Annuario Pontificio, but has "retired" it.

See http://www.zenit.org/article-15594?l=english
Posted By: Herbigny

Re: Pope Benedict Gifted Papal Tiara - By The Orthodox?! - 06/03/11 11:54 PM

the title may well be "obsolete" as the Zenit article put it (or perhaps merely "euro-centric")

from my point of view, keep the nice title, just tweak it to be (or mean) "Patriarch of the Latin" or perhaps in Vatican-speak "Patriarch for the Latins".

ps: hope he wears it.
if the patriarchs of Georgia and Russia and Ukraine (KP) wear the koukoulion, why can't he wear his hat?

pps: hope Patriarch Sviatoslav of the UGCC wears the koukoulion (either white or black is ok with me)

Posted By: DMD

Re: Pope Benedict Gifted Papal Tiara - By The Orthodox?! - 06/04/11 02:34 PM

Amen, except that the loudest of my fellow 'orthodox' Rome-haters would be in league with the Afghan Taliban who destroyed the Buddahs of Bamiyon with respect to those beautiful temples and icons. Alas....
Posted By: davinpa

Re: Pope Benedict Gifted Papal Tiara - By The Orthodox?! - 06/04/11 04:35 PM

Originally Posted by Herbigny
the title may well be "obsolete" as the Zenit article put it (or perhaps merely "euro-centric")

from my point of view, keep the nice title, just tweak it to be (or mean) "Patriarch of the Latin" or perhaps in Vatican-speak "Patriarch for the Latins".

ps: hope he wears it.
if the patriarchs of Georgia and Russia and Ukraine (KP) wear the koukoulion, why can't he wear his hat?

pps: hope Patriarch Sviatoslav of the UGCC wears the koukoulion (either white or black is ok with me)




Amen, Amen, Amen !!!
Amen to every statements, especially the last two, and in a very special way, the last one.
Btw, I prefer white koukoulion over the black one. And I hope the UGCC patriarch will stop wearing those foldable mitres and vestments that are rather dull (read those plain yellow sakkos)
Sorry for my rant.
Posted By: Herbigny

Re: Pope Benedict Gifted Papal Tiara - By The Orthodox?! - 06/04/11 05:10 PM

Amen! to your comments too!
Yes, the white koukoulion is the more the tradition of Ukraine (Patriarch Filaret wears a white koukoulion).

Double Amen to re the foldable mitres (what many refer to as "the K Mart Special" (apologies to KMart). They look terrible and are way more expensive than real mitres!

As to the sakkos, they are not really sakkoses. Whoever made them (who shall remain nameless) can't tell the difference between a sakkos and a deacon's stichar. (Worse they don't even know the deacon's vestment is a stichar, they think it is a "dalmatic", sigh)
Posted By: davinpa

Re: Pope Benedict Gifted Papal Tiara - By The Orthodox?! - 06/05/11 07:12 AM

Originally Posted by Herbigny
Amen! to your comments too!
Yes, the white koukoulion is the more the tradition of Ukraine (Patriarch Filaret wears a white koukoulion).

Double Amen to re the foldable mitres (what many refer to as "the K Mart Special" (apologies to KMart). They look terrible and are way more expensive than real mitres!

As to the sakkos, they are not really sakkoses. Whoever made them (who shall remain nameless) can't tell the difference between a sakkos and a deacon's stichar. (Worse they don't even know the deacon's vestment is a stichar, they think it is a "dalmatic", sigh)


Way more expensive?! What's the price range of a mitre and a foldable one?

Also, those plain yellow garments are not even worthy of being called dalmatics. The dalmatics I've seen are way more beautiful than that.
Posted By: DMD

Re: Pope Benedict Gifted Papal Tiara - By The Orthodox?! - 06/06/11 02:28 AM

Originally Posted by davinpa
Originally Posted by Herbigny
Amen! to your comments too!
Yes, the white koukoulion is the more the tradition of Ukraine (Patriarch Filaret wears a white koukoulion).

Double Amen to re the foldable mitres (what many refer to as "the K Mart Special" (apologies to KMart). They look terrible and are way more expensive than real mitres!

As to the sakkos, they are not really sakkoses. Whoever made them (who shall remain nameless) can't tell the difference between a sakkos and a deacon's stichar. (Worse they don't even know the deacon's vestment is a stichar, they think it is a "dalmatic", sigh)


Way more expensive?! What's the price range of a mitre and a foldable one?

Also, those plain yellow garments are not even worthy of being called dalmatics. The dalmatics I've seen are way more beautiful than that.


FWIT from the outside looking in, I found that Bishop Milan of Mukachevo's vestments worn in his recent youtube videos were outstanding, particularly in contrast to the style apparently preferred by the UGCC. He certainly did not seem afraid that by holding true to the venerable traditions of the eastern rite in his eparchy (the retention of such privileges being integral to the Union of Uzhorod) that he would apparently somehow be confused with his Orthodox brothers.
Posted By: Apotheoun

Re: Pope Benedict Gifted Papal Tiara - By The Orthodox?! - 06/10/11 10:54 PM

Originally Posted by Utroque
“Accipe thiaram tribus coronis ornatam, et scias te esse Patrem Principum et Regum, Rectorem Orbis, in terra Vicarium Salvatoris Nostri Jesu Christi, cui est honor et gloria in sæcula sæculorum.”

Now I know why the humble servant of God, P. Paul VI, placed it on the altar steps of St Peter's never to take it up again. I would be very surprised if P. Benedict XVI actually wore this beautiful thing. He chose not to put it on his coat of arms. I believe it has been replaced by the simple bishop's mitre.

Pope Benedict has papal tiara added to his coat of arms (see the video below):

Posted By: StuartK

Re: Pope Benedict Gifted Papal Tiara - By The Orthodox?! - 06/10/11 11:35 PM

Heraldry ain't what it used to be.
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