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Pope Modifies Norms for Catholics Seeking to Join Anglican Ordin.

Posted By: Siddhazen

Pope Modifies Norms for Catholics Seeking to Join Anglican Ordin. - 07/13/13 08:55 AM

VATICAN CITY — Baptized Catholics can now join Anglican ordinariates, according to a modification to the norms made by Pope Francis....

Pope Francis modified the complementary norms, adding a section that says that “a person who has been baptized in the Catholic Church but who has not completed the sacraments of initiation, and subsequently returns to the faith and practice of the Church as a result of the evangelizing mission of the ordinariate, may be admitted to membership in the ordinariate and receive the sacrament of confirmation or the sacrament of the Eucharist or both.”
_________

If a Catholic wanted to join an eastern Rite, do the same requirements apply?
Posted By: lmier

Re: Pope Modifies Norms for Catholics Seeking to Join Anglican Ordin. - 07/13/13 11:10 AM

If a Catholic wanted to join an eastern Rite, do the same requirements apply?

I don't think so. Which is sad, there must be the feeling that the ordinariate is part of the "western" church proper where the eastern churches are unique churches separate from the west.
Posted By: JDC

Re: Pope Modifies Norms for Catholics Seeking to Join Anglican Ordin. - 07/13/13 11:17 AM

The situation of the Eastern Churches, legitimate and complete of themselves, is not comparable to that of the Anglican ordinariates. It may be good and useful that Western Christianity develop additional forms suited to cultures, but however you consider that question it must be admitted that Anglicanism is not the result of such legitimate development (however agreeable it may appear in the face of current Roman Catholic practices).

Eastern Christians may feel affinity with Anglican Catholics and their married clergy, but largely because the trivial argument on ordaining married men has been unnecessarily inflated well beyond its importance. It is again worth noting that the Anglicans, with their married bishops and ordained men marrying, are not party to a legitimate practice.
Posted By: JDC

Re: Pope Modifies Norms for Catholics Seeking to Join Anglican Ordin. - 07/13/13 11:20 AM

I ought to have written "the trivial *disagreement*" by which I mean not that the Eastern Churches should not defend their legitimate rights in this regard, but that such a small matter should never have been a point of division and argument in the first place.
Posted By: IAlmisry

Re: Pope Modifies Norms for Catholics Seeking to Join Anglican Ordin. - 07/13/13 09:48 PM

Originally Posted by JDC
The situation of the Eastern Churches, legitimate and complete of themselves, is not comparable to that of the Anglican ordinariates. It may be good and useful that Western Christianity develop additional forms suited to cultures, but however you consider that question it must be admitted that Anglicanism is not the result of such legitimate development (however agreeable it may appear in the face of current Roman Catholic practices).

Oh? If one believes in "Pastor Aeternus," how does one make a distinction between 1054 and 1534 (or 431 or 451 for that matter)?
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Pope Modifies Norms for Catholics Seeking to Join Anglican Ordin. - 07/13/13 10:22 PM

Originally Posted by lmier
If a Catholic wanted to join an eastern Rite, do the same requirements apply?

I don't think so. Which is sad, there must be the feeling that the ordinariate is part of the "western" church proper where the eastern churches are unique churches separate from the west.

Hi lmier. There are many things that could be said here, but I think the most important is this: the former Anglicans in the Ordinariates chose to become Catholic of their own accord. I.e. Pope Benedict didn't pull them in, so to speak, but simply made it easier for those who want to switch sides to do so. ("We are not fishing in the Anglican pond." - Cardinal Kasper) Which means, among other things, that we should not be too quick to criticize the terms that he offered them.
Posted By: JDC

Re: Pope Modifies Norms for Catholics Seeking to Join Anglican Ordin. - 07/15/13 12:50 AM

Originally Posted by IAlmisry
how does one make a distinction between 1054 and 1534 (or 431 or 451 for that matter)?


I think, with the greatest respect for your faith and historical scholarship, that you might just as well ask me where I stand on unicorns. I think very few people care to make distinctions about 15 anything, let alone 10's or 4's, and I think most people suppose that other people are where and what they are and think rather more about where we all might end up than anything that our great grandparents' great grandparents' great grandparents' wouldn't remember.
Posted By: IAlmisry

Re: Pope Modifies Norms for Catholics Seeking to Join Anglican Ordin. - 07/15/13 01:56 AM

Originally Posted by JDC
Originally Posted by IAlmisry
how does one make a distinction between 1054 and 1534 (or 431 or 451 for that matter)?


I think, with the greatest respect for your faith and historical scholarship, that you might just as well ask me where I stand on unicorns. I think very few people care to make distinctions about 15 anything, let alone 10's or 4's, and I think most people suppose that other people are where and what they are and think rather more about where we all might end up than anything that our great grandparents' great grandparents' great grandparents' wouldn't remember.

Then why the concern over legitimate (and therefore also "illegitimate") development?
Posted By: JDC

Re: Pope Modifies Norms for Catholics Seeking to Join Anglican Ordin. - 07/15/13 01:44 PM

Originally Posted by IAlmisry
Then why the concern over legitimate (and therefore also "illegitimate") development?


Being informed by history is useful. Being mired in it is not.

What I am saying about history is that using it as a tool to avoid accepting present realities is not fruitful. It seems to me that even if we accept the view that the historical union of any or each Eastern Catholic Church with Rome was illegitimate, or predatory, or accomplished through deception or coercion, we must still accept that the existence of these groups today is voluntary.

By way of analogy, I would say that the American revolution was an illegitimate and immoral rebellion, but so what? There are Americans now. Israel should never have set up shop the way it has, but so what? There are now Israelis.

The present reality of the Anglicans, with no sacraments but baptism and marriage, and no priesthood, is very different from the reality of either Eastern Catholic or Orthodox Churches, and has to be approached accordingly.

That's all I meant.
Posted By: IAlmisry

Re: Pope Modifies Norms for Catholics Seeking to Join Anglican Ordin. - 07/15/13 03:03 PM

Originally Posted by JDC
Originally Posted by IAlmisry
Then why the concern over legitimate (and therefore also "illegitimate") development?


Being informed by history is useful. Being mired in it is not.

What I am saying about history is that using it as a tool to avoid accepting present realities is not fruitful. It seems to me that even if we accept the view that the historical union of any or each Eastern Catholic Church with Rome was illegitimate, or predatory, or accomplished through deception or coercion, we must still accept that the existence of these groups today is voluntary.

I'm aware that, for instance, the UGCC building a "patriarchal cathedral" and the desire of its head now called "Patriarch Josyp [sic] Kyiv-Halych and All Rus'" to be buried in "the renewed Sobor of St. Sophia in Kyiv" were voluntary slaps to the face of history. And intentional ones at that.

I do know that the evictions of the nineties (and their precedents) were not voluntary. But I think we have a few threads on those.

Originally Posted by JDC

By way of analogy, I would say that the American revolution was an illegitimate and immoral rebellion, but so what? There are Americans now.

The Treaty of Paris of 1783 get lost in your mire of history?

Originally Posted by JDC

Israel should never have set up shop the way it has, but so what? There are now Israelis.

I know that there are Zionists. Not exactly the same thing.

But no matter, you next pull the rug from under your feet:

Originally Posted by JDC

The present reality of the Anglicans, with no sacraments but baptism and marriage, and no priesthood, is very different from the reality of either Eastern Catholic or Orthodox Churches, and has to be approached accordingly.

Oh? The Anglicans have bishops: if the Union of Brest is lost down your mire of history, certainly the ordination of Parker as Archbishop of Canterbury is down there as well. So too John Jay, the first US Chief Justice and negotiator and signer of the 1783 Treaty also procuring Anglican orders for the Episcopalian church then and now in existence.

Like you said, "using history as a tool to avoid accepting present realities is not fruitful."

If they don't have priests in the Catholic sense, they don't have marriage in the Orthodox sense either.

Originally Posted by JDC

That's all I meant.

You mean more than your awareness.
Posted By: JDC

Re: Pope Modifies Norms for Catholics Seeking to Join Anglican Ordin. - 07/15/13 05:04 PM

Zionists, sure, but thousands of others with no idea where else they would go if there was no modern state of Israel.

And the Anglicans have men who think they are bishops and a great many more who call themselves bishops but who don't share any belief with any of us what a bishop is. There's a difference.
Posted By: IAlmisry

Re: Pope Modifies Norms for Catholics Seeking to Join Anglican Ordin. - 07/15/13 05:32 PM

Originally Posted by JDC
Zionists, sure, but thousands of others with no idea where else they would go if there was no modern state of Israel.

And the Anglicans have men who think they are bishops and a great many more who call themselves bishops but who don't share any belief with any of us what a bishop is. There's a difference.

Not without history there isn't, Apostolic succession and all that.
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic

Re: Pope Modifies Norms for Catholics Seeking to Join Anglican Ordin. - 07/15/13 05:58 PM

Dear Issa,

The UGCC Cathedral in Kyiv and the placing of the relics of Patriarch Josyp the Hieroconfessor there are hardly deliberate "slaps" and are not intended to be.

Yes, the Russian Orthodox Church (which calls itself "the Ukrainian Orthodox Church-Moscow Patriarchate" in Ukraine - even though there are many members of it who want that nonsensical name changed back to "ROC") is upset by all that. And it is upset because it feels itself losing a grip on its former ecclesial/national colony.

I would have thought that you, as an Arab Orthodox who is always ready to jump on Zionists etc., would understand and appreciate that.

Instead, you choose to villify the UGCC and her martyrs/confessors. That is simply being vicious, not scholarly and certainly not pious, as the Administrator said earlier.

When you speak of Patriarch Josyp, you (and the pro-Russian imperial propagandists whose views you are parroting because you believe you are defending Orthodoxy) are really out of your depths.

I knew him personally. I spent time in conversation with him alone. I felt the "Marks of the Lord Jesus" he carried on his body as a result of 18 years Siberian imprisonment.

This is reallly beyond all telling.

I don't blame you, as there are anti-EC propagandists aplenty.

I don't understand what appears to be the laissez-faire attitude of the Moderators here with respect to this.

This type of disrespectful discourse toward EC's and the UGCC in particular and her martyrs/confessors has nothing to do with spirituality, of any Christian direction.

It's very sad. And I would ask the members of this Forum who have emailed me to complain about this matter to refer it, from now on, to the Moderators.

Please leave me alone as I have no wish to return here.

With regrets,

Alex

Posted By: Orthodox Catholic

Re: Pope Modifies Norms for Catholics Seeking to Join Anglican Ordin. - 07/15/13 10:11 PM

I want to apologise for the above.

We have all have our taboos.

Alex
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Pope Modifies Norms for Catholics Seeking to Join Anglican Ordin. - 07/15/13 10:41 PM

Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Please leave me alone as I have no wish to return here.

I know what you mean. I sometimes wonder why I keep returning here ... although that's not saying much in my case, since I wonder that about every forum I participate on. grin
Posted By: JDC

Re: Pope Modifies Norms for Catholics Seeking to Join Anglican Ordin. - 07/15/13 11:34 PM

Originally Posted by IAlmisry
Not without history there isn't, Apostolic succession and all that.


The irritating thing about you pretending not to grasp my meaning, is that I actually wanted to know what you think.

I had imagined that you might have something to say, and that my understanding of things might have been enriched by it. I had been pleased to entertain and try to understand your perspective, since it seems to differ markedly from the "bloom where you're planted" approach to ecclesial communion, such as is widely favoured on this forum.

It seems a loss that you apparently prefer today a kind of juvenile gotcha game to the communication of ideas. I am not sure now how much of a loss it is really, but perhaps a little one.
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Pope Modifies Norms for Catholics Seeking to Join Anglican Ordin. - 07/16/13 07:48 AM

I actually have to sympathize (a little bit) with IAlmisry in this instance. I'm tired of hearing my fellow Catholics pontificate about who has valid orders and who doesn't.

(Some readers might know the forum I'm thinking of. Hint, it's on the internet.)
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