www.byzcath.org

ROCOR Western Rite Disappears?

Posted By: chadrook

ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/12/13 07:56 PM

Along with Bp. Jerome


http://byztex.blogspot.com/2013/07/big-news-for-western-rite.html?m=1
Posted By: IAlmisry

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/12/13 09:55 PM

Well, that's a disappointment and shame.

What's this?
Quote
To address an epistle to the clergymen and communities of the Western Rite regarding the need for them to adopt the order of divine services of the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church, while preserving, when necessary, certain particularities of the Western Rite.

If you are switching to Eastern rite, what "particularities of the Western rite" are you supposed to bring with.

I wonder, can they be released to Antioch?
Posted By: Our Lady's slave

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/13/13 03:48 AM

The announcement as it is on the official website

Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia
Posted By: Booth

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/13/13 11:23 AM

Originally Posted by Our Lady's slave
The announcement as it is on the official website

Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia


This seems interesting, but I am not familiar with the circumstances.

Can someone break down the background of this, and what is important to understand about it?
Posted By: chadrook

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/13/13 01:04 PM

I always wondered what was the point of a western rite. If they wanted to be Orthodox, then be it.
Posted By: rome1453

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/13/13 02:29 PM

This is terrible news.
Posted By: IAlmisry

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/13/13 02:36 PM

Originally Posted by chadrook
I always wondered what was the point of a western rite. If they wanted to be Orthodox, then be it.

They want to be Orthodox. They don't have to want or be Eastern.
Posted By: JDC

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/13/13 02:55 PM

Originally Posted by IAlmisry
They want to be Orthodox. They don't have to want or be Eastern.


Uh, kinda like Rusyns and stuff who want to be Catholic without being Western? Can we assume we have therefore heard the last of you griping about Brest etc?
Posted By: IAlmisry

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/13/13 06:52 PM

Originally Posted by JDC
Originally Posted by IAlmisry
They want to be Orthodox. They don't have to want or be Eastern.


Uh, kinda like Rusyns and stuff who want to be Catholic without being Western? Can we assume we have therefore heard the last of you griping about Brest etc?

not until you can cough up the Eastern Sigismund, and show how the liturgical books have been changed to show the adoption of the West's Scholastic theology (like taking the epiclesis out and putting the filioque in)-you know, the things that are supposedly a no no now.
Posted By: JDC

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/13/13 07:49 PM

Originally Posted by IAlmisry
Originally Posted by JDC
Originally Posted by IAlmisry
They want to be Orthodox. They don't have to want or be Eastern.


Uh, kinda like Rusyns and stuff who want to be Catholic without being Western? Can we assume we have therefore heard the last of you griping about Brest etc?

not until you can cough up the Eastern Sigismund, and show how the liturgical books have been changed to show the adoption of the West's Scholastic theology (like taking the epiclesis out and putting the filioque in)-you know, the things that are supposedly a no no now.


That's a bit scattered, isn't it, as justifications go? That it's voluntary? As if centuries of membership is coerced, or that a lot of Anglicans just woke up one day and thought "to Antioch!" of pure doctrinal conviction, rather than being chased out of their own religion, and joining whoever would take them and leave their hymnody intact. Anyway, never mind; this debate has been had here, and I find the whole thing silly and romantic and lacking a basic understanding of people and why they do things.

But I appreciate your consistency.
Posted By: IAlmisry

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/13/13 09:20 PM

Originally Posted by JDC
Originally Posted by IAlmisry
Originally Posted by JDC
Originally Posted by IAlmisry
They want to be Orthodox. They don't have to want or be Eastern.


Uh, kinda like Rusyns and stuff who want to be Catholic without being Western? Can we assume we have therefore heard the last of you griping about Brest etc?

not until you can cough up the Eastern Sigismund, and show how the liturgical books have been changed to show the adoption of the West's Scholastic theology (like taking the epiclesis out and putting the filioque in)-you know, the things that are supposedly a no no now.


That's a bit scattered, isn't it, as justifications go?

No. I like to cover all bases.
Originally Posted by JDC

But I appreciate your consistency.

Thanks.
Posted By: Peter J

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/13/13 10:39 PM

Originally Posted by IAlmisry
Well, that's a disappointment and shame.

When I read the news, I spend about 5 seconds imagining what you, DMD, and other Orthodox posters would say if our positions were reversed, i.e. if there were a comparable announcement made about Eastern Catholicism.
Posted By: Peter J

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/13/13 10:40 PM

Originally Posted by chadrook
I always wondered what was the point of a western rite. If they wanted to be Orthodox, then be it.

Is this ^^ post for real? Western-Rite Orthodox are Orthodox.
Posted By: IAlmisry

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/14/13 12:17 AM

Originally Posted by Peter J
Originally Posted by IAlmisry
Well, that's a disappointment and shame.

When I read the news, I spend about 5 seconds imagining what you, DMD, and other Orthodox posters would say if our positions were reversed, i.e. if there were a comparable announcement made about Eastern Catholicism.

I'll say it now: the door is always open.
Posted By: DMD

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/14/13 12:27 AM

I hate to disappoint Peter, but not all (more like not any outside of the internet) Orthodox gave ROCOR's "WRO" any thought during its existence, let alone upon its demise. If the Vicariate's webpage is still up, one can see the average "parish" has about ten souls. To partially borrow from Shakespeare, the whole matter is full of sound and fury, signifying little.


Posted By: rome1453

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/14/13 03:28 AM

What is wrong with wanting to be Orthodox but wanting to celebrate another liturgy besides St John or St Basil? The type of liturgy does not determine if you are orthodox.
Posted By: Peter J

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/14/13 08:37 AM

Originally Posted by IAlmisry
Originally Posted by Peter J
Originally Posted by IAlmisry
Well, that's a disappointment and shame.

When I read the news, I spend about 5 seconds imagining what you, DMD, and other Orthodox posters would say if our positions were reversed, i.e. if there were a comparable announcement made about Eastern Catholicism.

I'll say it now: the door is always open.

No, that's not it ... well, okay, I guess that is one thing you would say; but I doubt it would be the only thing, in view of the way you're always using ECism to leverage your complaints against Catholicism.
Posted By: Peter J

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/14/13 11:59 AM

Sorry, I've been forgetting my manners.

Originally Posted by IAlmisry
I'll say it now: the door is always open.

Thank you, but no.

If I were Orthodox, I wouldn't leave Orthodoxy, but neither do I have any intention to join it.
Posted By: 8IronBob

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/14/13 04:18 PM

Originally Posted by JDC
Originally Posted by IAlmisry
They want to be Orthodox. They don't have to want or be Eastern.


Uh, kinda like Rusyns and stuff who want to be Catholic without being Western? Can we assume we have therefore heard the last of you griping about Brest etc?


Same would be true with those living in portions of Ukraine, too. Not to mention that a good number want to be Catholic, but still worship on the Julian Calendar.
Posted By: chadrook

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/14/13 05:44 PM

Originally Posted by Peter J
Originally Posted by chadrook
I always wondered what was the point of a western rite. If they wanted to be Orthodox, then be it.

Is this ^^ post for real? Western-Rite Orthodox are Orthodox.


So are you saying there is something wrong with the Catholic Church? If the church is two lungs and all, then whats the point of being Orthodox? If the sacraments are valid, and recognized by the Orthodox, then whats the point?

There has been thousands of hours spent arguing "liturgical archeology," trying to convince people that the western rite is using the authentic liturgy of the west. As if Rome got it wrong?

What happened in ROCOR with the western rite has little to do with a "western rite." It has everything to do with the discernment of certain bishops and their appointment of clergy from vagante groups without proper discernment. Appointments such as Nathan Monk who renounced his ordination because the church does not support gay marriage, is just the beginning of the problems with these groups.

ROCOR has always had a problem with these types of things. Remember Blanco?
Posted By: DMD

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/14/13 07:19 PM

^I have to agree with you here.
Posted By: Peter J

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/14/13 10:11 PM

Originally Posted by chadrook
Originally Posted by Peter J
Originally Posted by chadrook
I always wondered what was the point of a western rite. If they wanted to be Orthodox, then be it.

Is this ^^ post for real? Western-Rite Orthodox are Orthodox.

So are you saying there is something wrong with the Catholic Church? If the church is two lungs and all, then whats the point of being Orthodox?

No, I'm not saying there is something wrong with the Catholic Church. As I said in response to Isa's invitation: if I were Orthodox, I wouldn't leave Orthodoxy, but neither do I have any intention to join it.

I'm saying that Western-Rite Orthodox are Orthodox.

As for "what's the point of being Orthodox?" I don't think it's my place to answer that; but I would ask, do you mean to imply that there's no point to being Orthodox?
Posted By: chadrook

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/15/13 09:03 AM

No, I am implying that several Orthodox Christians will state that the Catholic Church has fully valid mysteries and are simply separated brothers.

With that being said, the only difference would be form of worship. So, whats the point of a western rite? I have even read some very detailed revisions of history from western rite churches pointing out that the differences are simply personality, or a centuries old miss-reading of text. Does it all boil down to married clergy? Is it some grand scheme to poke Rome in the eye over the unia? You tell me. Years and years of discussion on this very forum with posters pointing out that the differences between east and west are simply minutia. whats the point then? Numbers?

Rocor western rite was a much different animal than some Episcopal parish brought into Antioch. Several of these "groups," were vegante at best. And the others were nothing more than a small family. And no they were not Orthodox. Not in theology, not in worship, not in "lifestyle."

As for your last question, I guess I didn't make myself clear. I don't believe there is any point in being western rite. And as for my stance on Orthodoxy, well I am one of those crazy traditionalist.
Posted By: IAlmisry

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/15/13 09:30 AM

Originally Posted by chadrook
No, I am implying that several Orthodox Christians will state that the Catholic Church has fully valid mysteries and are simply separated brothers.

With that being said, the only difference would be form of worship. So, whats the point of a western rite? I have even read some very detailed revisions of history from western rite churches pointing out that the differences are simply personality, or a centuries old miss-reading of text. Does it all boil down to married clergy? Is it some grand scheme to poke Rome in the eye over the unia? You tell me. Years and years of discussion on this very forum with posters pointing out that the differences between east and west are simply minutia. whats the point then? Numbers?

Rocor western rite was a much different animal than some Episcopal parish brought into Antioch. Several of these "groups," were vegante at best. And the others were nothing more than a small family. And no they were not Orthodox. Not in theology, not in worship, not in "lifestyle."

As for your last question, I guess I didn't make myself clear. I don't believe there is any point in being western rite. And as for my stance on Orthodoxy, well I am one of those crazy traditionalist.

I would count myself a traditionalist, although, given the varying definitions, I'm not sure that says anything.

There is a point to the WRO. Having had the experience of being Lutheran in the (Middle) East, that point was brought home very early to me.

Btw, the Lutherans have their own Eastern rite:
http://www.angelfire.com/ca4/saintsophiaseminary/liturgy.html

I've read a lot from the WRO, and I never recall it ever being presented as a question of "simply personality, or a centuries old miss-reading of text" or "married clergy." No defense of the filioque, for instance, but rather an Orthodox denunciation. Closest thing I've come across that meets your description is a defense of the cult of the sacred heart, but that even has been rare, or, more Orthodox, images including statues, like Our Lady of Walsingham.
Posted By: Peter J

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/15/13 09:37 AM

Originally Posted by chadrook
No, I am implying that several Orthodox Christians will state that the Catholic Church has fully valid mysteries and are simply separated brothers.

I would say, more than several.
Posted By: chadrook

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/15/13 10:38 AM

Originally Posted by Peter J
Originally Posted by chadrook
No, I am implying that several Orthodox Christians will state that the Catholic Church has fully valid mysteries and are simply separated brothers.

I would say, more than several.


I know that experiences differ from place to place but here are some things I have ran into.


"The form of worship is unapologetically Western while maintaining the richness of our Eastern Spirituality delivered once to the saints. When the Roman Church separated from Orthodox unity in 1054 her Western Rite (style of Worship/ Liturgy) was perfectly “Orthodox.” She maintained this holy Apostolic Rite up until the mid 1960’s when their forms of worship were radically and tragically altered. In the 19th century, venerable saints such as Sts. John Maximovich (the Wonderworker) and Tikon restored the Western forms of worship to Orthodox Church."

http://www.saintbrigit.org/2.html
http://www.saintbrigit.org/3.html

"After a number of centuries, various differences in theology and practice arose between the Eastern and Western churches. This resulted in the initial split in 1054 and culminated in the sack of Constantinople in 1204. The Western church became known as the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern church continued on as the Orthodox Catholic Church."

http://www.stmichaeloc.org/

So from these two examples you get the feeling that it is theological differences that brought them to Orthodoxy. But the reality is much different, correct?

To add to the fray; On the issue of papal Catholic sacraments:From Orthodox Priest Alexander Lebedeff via Orthodox priest monk Ambrose Mooney of New Zealand:

Actually, not just the position of the Russian Orthodox Church during the
past 400 years, but the position of the whole Church up until Patriarch
Cyril and the Tomos of 1755.

I would suggest careful reading of the following.

The best Greek theologian and scholar to write on this issue, Fr. George Metallinos, in his book "I confess One Baptism" (available on-line) writes:

"According to the prevailing view, after the schism the Orthodox Church recognized ''the validity of the Latin sacraments,''[228] and indeed that of baptism. Upon their conversion, the Church applied Canon VII of the Second Ecumenical Council or XCV of Penthekte to them, or occasionally received them by a mere recantation of their foreign doctrines.[229] Even after the Crusades and the Council of Ferrara/Florence (1438-1439), when the relations between Orthodox and Latins became strained, and the stance of the Orthodox East in dealing with the Latins became more austere, [230] the East considered the application of Canon VII of the Second Ecumenical Council to be an adequate measure of defense, that is she received them by chrismation and a written statement. This action was officially ratified by the Local Council of Constantinople in 1484, with the participation, moreover, of all the Patriarchs of the East.

This Council also wrote an appropriate service.[231] Thus, according to I. Karmiris (and also according to the arguments of the Latinizers and pro-westerners during the Turkish rule), the cases of ''rebaptism'' were exceptions, owing ''to individual initiative,'' and ''not to an authoritative decision of the Church.''[232]

"This custom, however, was overturned in 1755 under Cyril V, Patriarch of Constantinople, by the imposing of the (re)baptism of Latins and all Western converts in general,[233] again through the application of Canon VII of the Second Ecumenical Council and the other relevant Canons of the Church. This action, to this day the last ''official'' decision of the Orthodox Church,[234] was opposed by those who disagreed. It was considered to have subverted the decision of the Council of 1484. because of its circumstantial character,[235] not having gained universal acceptance and application, it was often not adhered to. In addition, the practice of the Russian Church from 1667 differed from that of the other Orthodox Patriarchates, and indeed that of Constantinople.[236] This, then, is what is commonly accepted to this day concerning the issue in question."

http://www.oodegr.com/english/biblia/baptisma1/B6.htm

Here we see that the prevailing view was that the Orthodox Church, since 1054, "accepted the validity of the Latin sacraments" and that even after the Council of Florence, when relations between the East and the West had totally deteriorated, the Council of Constantinople of 1484, at which all four Eastern Patriarchs participated, decreed that Latins should be accepted by Chrismation and a written statement, and, more importantly, this Council created a special service for the Reception of Converts according to the mandated form (Chrismation after giving a statement renouncing false teachings and professing the Orthodox faith).

Fr. Metallinos underscores that the Oros of 1755 under Cyril V
**overturned** this previously established custom.

It is critical to note that the Russian Church **NEVER** accepted the Oros
of 1755 as being binding for it, and continues to this day to consider as
prevailing the decision of the Council of Constantinople
in 1484, which directed that Latins NOT be baptized. This was confirmed at
the Council of the Russian Church in 1667--the last time that a Council of
the Russian Church addressed this issue.

In fact, it would have been impossible for a Council of the Russian Orthodox
Church to have accepted the Oros of 1755, since there WERE NO Councils of
the Russian Church held from 1690 until 1917!!!

The Russian Church Council in 1667, at which two Patriarchs of the East
participated, had previously sent queries to ALL of the ancient Patriarchs,
asking for their opinion on this question. The unanimous
reply of all four Patriarchs confirmed the position of the 1484 Council of
Constantinople--that Latins were not to be repabtized.

Fr. George Metallinos writes: "The Council of Moscow in 1620-21 decided to
baptize Western converts.[276] However, the ''great'' Council of Moscow in
1666-67, in which the Patriarchs of Alexandria and Antioch also
participated, approved the decision of the 1484 Council of Constantinople,
and thus rejected the (re)baptism of Western converts."

We must remember tyhat Fr. George Metallinos' work is based on the positions
of the Kollyvades Fathers, especially Neophytos and C. Oikonomos. Still, he
admits:

"Nevertheless, the Council of Constantinople in 1484 creates the greatest
difficulties for an acceptance of our theologian's position on Latin
baptism. This Council decided ''only to anoint with chrism
the Latins who come over to Orthodoxy,.after they submit a written statement
of faith.'' In other words, it ranks them in the class of the Arians and
Macedonians of the Second Ecumenical Council (Canon
VII).[262]"

In a footnore, Metallinos quotes Bishop Kallistos Ware:

"Ware writes in this connection: ''Neither of these Councils [i.e.
Constantinople, 1484, and Moscow, 1667] was exposed to foreign pressure or
acted from fear of Papist reprisals"

So it is totally incorrect to attribute the position of the Russian Church
regarding accepting as valid the baptism of the Latins to Peter the Great or
to Western influence.

Actually, regarding Peter I, Metallinos quotes from a reply in 1718 of
Ecumenical Patriarch Jeremias III to Czar Peter the Great, in which the
Patriarch directs the Czar to receive Latins ''by mere
chrismation,''

Metallinos is forced to admit that even the theologian he uses as the basis
for his thesis, C. Oikonomos, wrote the following:

"''I honor and respect the Russian Church as the undefiled bride of Christ
and inseparable from her Bridegroom, and in addition as my own benefactress,
by which the Lord has done and shall do many great and marvelous things, as
she unerringly and verily follows the rule of piety. Hence, I do not doubt
that it was in a spirit of discernment that she chose the older rule, in
accordance with which she accepts
the baptism of the other Churches [sic], merely chrismating those who join
when they renounce their patrimonial beliefs with a written statement and
confess those of the Orthodox faith.''[317]"

Here we have the clear statement of Metallinos chief theologian that the
Church of Russia chooses to follow what he calls "the **older rule**, in
accordance with which she accepts the baptism of other
Churches."

Now, please tell me how is the position stated by Archbishop Hilarion of
Volokolamsk any different from the position of the Russian Church has held
since 1667, which is based on the decision of the Council of the Four
Patriarchs of 1484?

With love in Christ,

Prot. Alexander Lebedeff

https://www.facebook.com/groups/323912757639023/permalink/625204300843199/

So what is the consensus? The western rite says Rome is wrong and the Orthodox says Rome is ok?

To clarify, I am usually considered a schismatic at best when it comes to my use of the word traditional. Even though our bishops trace their linage through ROCA and St. Philaret.

Posted By: The young fogey

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/15/13 12:19 PM

Blog post.

The real issue here seems to be that Bishop Jerome took a short cut to grow his vicariate: receiving and ordaining vagante ('independent Catholic') types quickly, without checking them out or teaching them. Nathan Monk was the last straw: a 28-year-old showoff priest wannabe who loudly quit everything after eight months. He was the bomb that blew up Western Rite ROCOR, even though he wasn't WR when he quit. He was one of those hastily ordained for WR.

(Sidebar: That's been going on as long as there have been vagantes. A Western wannabe priest travels east and finds a trusting Eastern bishop to ordain him, then he turns on his new bishop when he goes home by going independent.)

So ROCOR had to clean house; the Western Rite is only incidental.

Not a personal scandal for Bishop Jerome: no heresy, theft, or sexual sin. He just made a mistake. A nice fellow who's retiring gracefully.
Posted By: Nelson Chase

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/15/13 01:39 PM

Do issues like this one not highlight the need for a strong primacy of the Bishop of Rome?

Quote
Nathan Monk was the last straw: a 28-year-old showoff priest wannabe who loudly quit everything after eight months. He was the bomb that blew up Western Rite ROCOR, even though he wasn't WR when he quit. He was one of those hastily ordained for WR.


Sad story really. I for one was taken in by his outreach to the homeless.
Posted By: The young fogey

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/15/13 01:55 PM

Originally Posted by Nelson Chase
Do issues like this one not highlight the need for a strong primacy of the Bishop of Rome?

Not necessarily, to be fair. One should defend the papacy as it has developed in the Catholic Church. But breakdowns in church discipline happen everywhere. Witness the big priestly underage gay sex scandal and coverup in America, which the gay lobby has made sure is misreported as pedophilia; it has turned the church into a national punchline. Not a reason to convert to Orthodoxy, the reason Rod Dreher did.
Posted By: The young fogey

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/15/13 01:59 PM

And of course the far greater damage throughout the Catholic Church after, yes, because of, Vatican II.
Posted By: IAlmisry

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/15/13 02:27 PM

Originally Posted by Nelson Chase
Do issues like this one not highlight the need for a strong primacy of the Bishop of Rome?

Quote
Nathan Monk was the last straw: a 28-year-old showoff priest wannabe who loudly quit everything after eight months. He was the bomb that blew up Western Rite ROCOR, even though he wasn't WR when he quit. He was one of those hastily ordained for WR.


Sad story really. I for one was taken in by his outreach to the homeless.

No, they do not.
Posted By: chadrook

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/15/13 05:35 PM

Originally Posted by Nelson Chase
Do issues like this one not highlight the need for a strong primacy of the Bishop of Rome?

Quote
Nathan Monk was the last straw: a 28-year-old showoff priest wannabe who loudly quit everything after eight months. He was the bomb that blew up Western Rite ROCOR, even though he wasn't WR when he quit. He was one of those hastily ordained for WR.


Sad story really. I for one was taken in by his outreach to the homeless.


Nelson, I dont understand what this has to do with Rome?

Fogey, you are wrong about Nathan Monk. He was only a part of the issue. This goes way back the the Fr John Shaw years and the secret western rite parishes that found their hiding places in the hinterlands of middle and western America. It wasn't until his elevation to Bishop and gramata for internet activity that landed him on the east coast. Here, where there is an abundance of Russians, that his activities landed him in hot water.

Posted By: Peter J

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/15/13 07:52 PM

Originally Posted by Nelson Chase
Do issues like this one not highlight the need for a strong primacy of the Bishop of Rome?

Alright! Post #28, I win the pool!
Posted By: IAlmisry

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/15/13 08:37 PM

Originally Posted by Peter J
Originally Posted by Nelson Chase
Do issues like this one not highlight the need for a strong primacy of the Bishop of Rome?

Alright! Post #28, I win the pool!

What is post #28?
Posted By: Fr David Straut

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/15/13 11:40 PM

The Western Rite has not disappeared in the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia (ROCOR), nor will it do so, in my opinion. You may notice that I can speak with some authority on this subject. None of the four members of the Commission created by the Synod of Bishops is hostile to the Western Rite. In fact, three of the four (including its President) are on record supporting the Western Rite in ROCOR. Please, let's have no more nonsense. In taking in an existing body, and allowing the leadership of that body to operate the way they had been operating outside the Church, several regrettable decisions were made by ROCOR. These need to be corrected and our Western Rite communities set on the right path. It's as simple as that.

Archpriest (sometimes styled 'Protopriest') David Straut
Posted By: Fr. Deacon Lance

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/15/13 11:53 PM

Originally Posted by Fr David Straut
The Western Rite has not disappeared in the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia (ROCOR), nor will it do so, in my opinion. You may notice that I can speak with some authority on this subject. None of the four members of the Commission created by the Synod of Bishops is hostile to the Western Rite. In fact, three of the four (including its President) are on record supporting the Western Rite in ROCOR. Please, let's have no more nonsense. In taking in an existing body, and allowing the leadership of that body to operate the way they had been operating outside the Church, several regrettable decisions were made by ROCOR. These need to be corrected and our Western Rite communities set on the right path. It's as simple as that.

Archpriest (sometimes styled 'Protopriest') David Straut


Are the Western Rite parishes being forced to adopt the Byzantine Rite or not?
Posted By: Fr David Straut

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/16/13 12:29 AM

Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance
Are the Western Rite parishes being forced to adopt the Byzantine Rite or not?


Father Deacon, I would have thought from what I just said (you quote it) that I very clearly said that they are not being forced to adopt the Byzantine Rite.

Fr David
Posted By: Peter J

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/16/13 07:57 AM

Originally Posted by IAlmisry
Originally Posted by Peter J
Originally Posted by Nelson Chase
Do issues like this one not highlight the need for a strong primacy of the Bishop of Rome?

Alright! Post #28, I win the pool!

What is post #28?

I bet on posts # 26-30. Post #28 was the first one to say the ROCOR decision points to a need for a strong papal primacy, so I won the pool.
Posted By: chadrook

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/16/13 09:10 AM

Originally Posted by Fr David Straut
The Western Rite has not disappeared in the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia (ROCOR), nor will it do so, in my opinion. You may notice that I can speak with some authority on this subject. None of the four members of the Commission created by the Synod of Bishops is hostile to the Western Rite. In fact, three of the four (including its President) are on record supporting the Western Rite in ROCOR. Please, let's have no more nonsense. In taking in an existing body, and allowing the leadership of that body to operate the way they had been operating outside the Church, several regrettable decisions were made by ROCOR. These need to be corrected and our Western Rite communities set on the right path. It's as simple as that.

Archpriest (sometimes styled 'Protopriest') David Straut


Father, since you sit on the commission can you clarify these two points?
8) To address an epistle to the clergymen and communities of the Western Rite regarding the need for them to adopt the order of divine services of the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church, while preserving, when necessary, certain particularities of the Western Rite.

9) To emphasize our adherence to the rules and traditions of the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church in general and of the Russian Orthodox Church in particular.

It makes since that Fr. Anthony is on the commission, he has been running a western rite liturgy for 20+ years.
Posted By: Fr. Deacon Lance

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/16/13 10:03 AM

Originally Posted by Fr David Straut
Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance
Are the Western Rite parishes being forced to adopt the Byzantine Rite or not?


Father Deacon, I would have thought from what I just said (you quote it) that I very clearly said that they are not being forced to adopt the Byzantine Rite.

Fr David


I ask because these two points seem to contradict that:

8) To address an epistle to the clergymen and communities of the Western Rite regarding the need for them to adopt the order of divine services of the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church, while preserving, when necessary, certain particularities of the Western Rite.

9) To emphasize our adherence to the rules and traditions of the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church in general and of the Russian Orthodox Church in particular.


Posted By: The young fogey

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/16/13 10:30 AM

Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance
Originally Posted by Fr David Straut
Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance
Are the Western Rite parishes being forced to adopt the Byzantine Rite or not?


Father Deacon, I would have thought from what I just said (you quote it) that I very clearly said that they are not being forced to adopt the Byzantine Rite.

Fr David


I ask because these two points seem to contradict that:

8) To address an epistle to the clergymen and communities of the Western Rite regarding the need for them to adopt the order of divine services of the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church, while preserving, when necessary, certain particularities of the Western Rite.

9) To emphasize our adherence to the rules and traditions of the Eastern Orthodox Catholic Church in general and of the Russian Orthodox Church in particular.

Fr David's the authority here but this sounds like shutting down the WR to me.
Posted By: Nelson Chase

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/16/13 11:50 AM

Quote
I bet on posts # 26-30. Post #28 was the first one to say the ROCOR decision points to a need for a strong papal primacy, so I won the pool.


I'm glad that I could help Peter. Please send me my share of the earnings. wink grin
Posted By: Two Lungs

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/16/13 12:10 PM

Let's see:

Moose and Elks have lodges.

Knights of Columbus have councils.

My guess is that post #28 is VFW or American Legion. laugh
Posted By: Nelson Chase

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/16/13 12:23 PM

Quote
My guess is that post #28 is VFW or American Legion. laugh


I belong to VFW Post #9578 in Alpine, Ca. grin
Posted By: Peter J

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/16/13 12:59 PM

Originally Posted by Nelson Chase
Quote
I bet on posts # 26-30. Post #28 was the first one to say the ROCOR decision points to a need for a strong papal primacy, so I won the pool.

I'm glad that I could help Peter. Please send me my share of the earnings. wink grin

Sorry frown that's against the rules.
Posted By: Nelson Chase

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/16/13 01:53 PM

Quote
Sorry frown that's against the rules.


Have you forgotten our backroom deal, when I said I would post it on the 28th post? grin
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/19/13 12:00 AM

An acquaintance of mine, a former Anglican who joined the Western Rite of ROCOR last year, just contacted me to say that he and his wife have now joined . . . the Anglican Ordinariate.

They said they felt the Eastern Orthodox just "don't like us Westerners."

FYI

Alex
Posted By: Fr David Straut

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/19/13 02:00 AM

[img]http://www.rwrv.org/files/decrees/WRCommunityStatus.pdf[/img]
Posted By: Fr David Straut

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/19/13 02:03 AM

Re: Rocor western rite dissappears

Try: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears

Of course the title of this thread is in factual error, but what I really can't stand is when spelling errors head every post, including mine.
Posted By: Asteriktos

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/19/13 02:31 AM

Perhaps it is time to fix it then? smile
Posted By: DMD

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/19/13 07:45 AM

We all are products of our environment and our own histories. My religious outlook was formed in the aftermath of the great turmoils and bitter schism within the Greek Catholic church of the mid twentieth century. That being said, as I observe the ROCOR WRO developments, including the July 15th letter of Metropolitan Hilarion, it is , to me at least, as if the Church of Rome had recalled Bishop Basil Takach in 1935, placed the Ruthentian Greek Catholics under the Latin Rite Archbishop of NY and politely told them this was being done to more fully integrate them into the Catholic faith.

I find the whole matter sublimely ironic. I hope I am wrong, but as I noted, we are what we are for a variety of reasons which shape our perceptions.
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/19/13 08:22 AM

Dear DMD,

In fact, my acquaintance above who has joined the Ordinariate from the WRO of ROCOR and who is doing a doctorate in church history, said something similar.

Andrew said that "what ROCOR has done with the Western Rite is something Rome would never have done to the Eastern Churches."

He is also bringing some colleagues over to the Ordinariate with him.

There is some bitterness, but what is a convert without some bitterness? smile

Have a great day sir!

Alex
Posted By: DMD

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/19/13 08:42 AM

I daresay had Rome acted in such a matter, that would have unified most of the Rusyn, Lemko and Ukrainian communities in a manner not expected. However, even the Vatican of Popes Pius XI and XII had more common sense than to act that way.....
Posted By: Peter J

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/19/13 10:27 AM

Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Andrew said that "what ROCOR has done with the Western Rite is something Rome would never have done to the Eastern Churches."

I think the Orthodox could use a little bit of the "spirit of Vatican II".

grin I'm kidding of course ... well, kind of.
Posted By: chadrook

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/19/13 10:38 AM

Originally Posted by Fr David Straut
Re: Rocor western rite dissappears

Try: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears

Of course the title of this thread is in factual error, but what I really can't stand is when spelling errors head every post, including mine.


Fr. David,

Forgive me for my errors in spelling. I was in a hurry. But that still does not answer the questions posed from myself and other posters here. Since you have stood up and informed us that you are a person of authority on this matter, then are you willing to explain points 8&9?

Or do you need to wait for the commission to make that statement?

Another question; who was assigned as the priest over Nathan Monk? Or is that another thing the commission is going to work on. An ecclesiastical structure for the ROCOR WR.

Chad
Posted By: Apotheoun

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/19/13 03:11 PM

Prayers for all the ROCOR Western Rite Orthodox. This is no doubt a trying time for them. I hope that they find peace and joy in the Byzantine Rite liturgy.
Posted By: Fr David Straut

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/19/13 04:08 PM

Dear Chadrook,

I answered your question above with a link to Metropolitan Hilarion's recent Epistle.

Here it is again: http://www.rwrv.org/files/decrees/WRCommunityStatus.pdf

Believe me, I have more work than I can handle on the Commission right now. I am communicating, as best I can, with the clergy of the Western Rite. When the Commission has any official statements, I'll let everyone know.

Fr David Straut
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/19/13 10:01 PM

Todd,

My friend Andrew has read your post and wishes you the same peace he has found in the Western Rite!

Alex
Posted By: Xristoforos

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/19/13 10:41 PM

Alright.

Listen up everyone.

Since last Friday, over 10 internet forums and blogs have announced that ROCOR Western rite was officially shut down by that ukaze (decree).

Most of the actual ROCOR WR priests upon initial reading of decree, especially point #8, also immediately thought that it ment that the WR was suppressed.

Even our favorite announcer John Maddox of Ancient Faith Radio on their special program "Correcting a Canonical Anomaly (One Bishop per city)" http://audio.ancientfaith.com/interviews/afp_2013-07-19.mp3 announced that ROCOR had stopped its western rite.

OK....


Rev. Fr. David Straut, I dearly respect you and pray for you and all ROCOR along with His Grace Met. Hilarion. Yet we wonder who is responsible for the wording of a decree in a way that misleads people?

I suggest that there be official an apology for a wording that nearly everyone was mislead by. I know it was not intentional but it has occurred. Too many people are upset and hurt by it.

Numerous ROCOR WR missions and parishes have now lost people who were interested in them.

Someone needs to admit a mistake was made in the wording.
You have everything to gain if someone does and everything to lose if someone does not.

If ROCOR does not clean up it's act, I do not think it's WR will have a future for growth for many years to come. That is my honest opinion.

I sincerely believe in the concept and knew many people within the ROCOR WR. I witnessed a miraculous Icon at one of it's Churches. I know much holiness was there, despite whatever problems also were there. I deeply hope ROCOR WR succeeds and survives. No other church on earth allowed the ancient Sarum use Roman Mass and Office in both Latin and English to be celebrated again fully as a living tradition within Orthodoxy. (Compare that to the recent Roman Catholic Anglican use ordinariate decision made that writes off revival of the sarum use as antiquarian nonsense that is irrelevant to the current day anglican/english catholic patrimony.)


Psalm 40:

8 All mine enemies whispered against me; even against me did they imagine this evil.

9 They spread a slanderous word against me, Now that he sleepeth, he shall not rise up again.

10 Yea, even mine own familiar friend, in whom I trusted, who did eat of my bread, hath lifted up his heel against me.

11 But Thou, O Lord, have mercy upon me, and raise me up, and I shall pay them back.

12 By this I know Thou favorest me, that mine enemy doth not triumph against me.

13 But Thou hast taken my side by reason of my innocence, and hast established me before Thee for ever.

14 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel from everlasting to everlasting. So be it. So be it.

Glory be to the Father and to the Son and to the Holy Ghost;

As it was in the beginning, is now and ever shall be
even unto ages of ages. Amen




Posted By: Peter J

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/19/13 10:56 PM

Originally Posted by Xristoforos
Rev. Fr. David Straut, I dearly respect you and pray for you and all ROCOR along with His Grace Met. Hilarion. Yet we wonder who is responsible for the wording of a decree in a way that misleads people?

Alright, but how do you know that they didn't mean ... well, what most people interpreted it to mean?
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/20/13 08:12 AM

Xristoforos,

OK, but the Anglican Ordinariate is more than just about rubrics and which Liturgy one uses.

Not all members of the Ordinariate are interested in the Sarum Use and this isn't a deal-breaker for them for the most part.

But whatever ROCOR intended to say about the matter, and however it will clarify its position and/or insist that there is much misinterpretation of it - the point is, as you yourself say, that this has all negatively impacted its Western Rite members and parishes.

Apotheoun responded by wishing the WR folk well as they undertake the spirituality of the Byzantine Rite. He isn't someone who jumps to rash conclusions - far from it - and that is how he understood the matter.

It could very well be that ROCOR needed to act quickly to head off a situation that was getting out of control.

But just as this or that action by Rome towards Eastern Catholics is more than likely to be interpreted badly by both EC's and Orthodox observers, so too is this action by ROCOR (which I think we can all agree was communicated poorly) will only serve to underscore the popular notions about Orthodoxy being insular with respect to the Byzantine-Russian tradition and incapable of expressing a truly "catholic" praxis that reflects the spiritual pluralism of the Church prior to 1054 AD.

I'm not saying that is true - only that this contributes to that caricature.

Alex

Posted By: Orthodox Catholic

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/20/13 08:14 AM

Xristoforos,

And a number of Ordinariate acquaintances have indeed told me they see the "pining" after the Sarum Use as irrelevant - it comes from them in the first instance.

Alex
Posted By: Apotheoun

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/20/13 09:47 AM

Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Todd,

My friend Andrew has read your post and wishes you the same peace he has found in the Western Rite!

Alex

If he is a member of ROCOR joining an Antiochian Western Rite parish is always an option, or he can convert to Roman Catholicism.
Posted By: Apotheoun

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/20/13 09:52 AM

Originally Posted by Xristoforos
. . .

Most of the actual ROCOR WR priests upon initial reading of decree, especially point #8, also immediately thought that it ment that the WR was suppressed.

Even our favorite announcer John Maddox of Ancient Faith Radio on their special program "Correcting a Canonical Anomaly (One Bishop per city)" http://audio.ancientfaith.com/interviews/afp_2013-07-19.mp3 announced that ROCOR had stopped its western rite.

The letter / decree does sound like it is suppressing the ROCOR's Western Rite. Perhaps a clarification / correction will be issued at some point in the future.
Posted By: chadrook

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/20/13 10:27 AM

So, after reading all that has been said here, I still have an unanswered question.

Whats the point of the Western Rite?

In all seriousness, for the most part, the majority of posters believe in the validity of sacraments for both churches, correct? Does it simply boil down to celibacy?

Another question; Why is it assumed that Western Rite Orthodox have an ecumenical mindset? Do they? I can say I have met some rather rabid Western Rite Orthodox.

Now if people say that some westerners can more easily identify with the WRO, are they not just continuing the whole ethnic division problem or even Phyletism?

How about hearing a mixture of Slavonic and English at the WR Liturgy?
Posted By: JDC

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/20/13 11:41 AM

The point of Western Orthodoxy is ecclesial communion. People are frequently personally and culturally extremely attached to the way they pray, and abstract matters like communion take a second place in the human heart. Offer the heart a solution, and the head has an easier time following.

Posted By: Orthodox Catholic

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/20/13 01:04 PM

Yes, he has thought about Antioch, but finds them to be "too liberal" would you believe.

He has now formally joined the Ordinariate with his wife. A number of acquaintances are now enthusiastic members. I was to have been his sponsor two years ago when he initially wanted to join the Ordinariate, but he walked out of the church when he saw an altar girl there . . .

Alex
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/20/13 01:05 PM

very good sir!
Posted By: Peter J

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/20/13 05:51 PM

Originally Posted by chadrook
Another question; Why is it assumed that Western Rite Orthodox have an ecumenical mindset?

Can you be a little more specific?
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/20/13 11:00 PM

Dear Peter the Rock,

I think Chadrook means that there is a perception that Western Rite Orthodox are a kind of Orthodox bridge to the West, just as EC's are said to be a Catholic bridge to the East.

Alex
Posted By: The young fogey

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/21/13 10:29 PM

Originally Posted by chadrook
So, after reading all that has been said here, I still have an unanswered question.

Whats the point of the Western Rite?

In all seriousness, for the most part, the majority of posters believe in the validity of sacraments for both churches, correct? Does it simply boil down to celibacy?

Another question; Why is it assumed that Western Rite Orthodox have an ecumenical mindset? Do they? I can say I have met some rather rabid Western Rite Orthodox.

Now if people say that some westerners can more easily identify with the WRO, are they not just continuing the whole ethnic division problem or even Phyletism?

How about hearing a mixture of Slavonic and English at the WR Liturgy?


I'll take it for now that ROCOR WR is stavropegial, simply no longer a vicariate, and I won't presume to predict its future.

Antiochian WR is ecumenical. It's the mirror of what Greek Catholicism's supposed to be: showing the other side that 'the water's fine here; you can keep all your practices, as they are fine under our doctrine'. Antiochian WR is traditional Catholicism but without the Pope.

ROCOR WR is anti-ecumenical, sort of like heavily latinized Greek Catholics. 'Your church is bogus; to be in the true church either join the dominant rite or accept our invented, mutilated version of WR.'

I don't know of any ex-Catholics who switched to WR so they could get married and be priests. It seems to me most WR priests are ex-Anglicans who were married priests as Anglicans.
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/21/13 11:02 PM

Dear Sergey,

As always, you have such a deep insight on this and so many other things!

Thank you sir!

Alex
Posted By: Xristoforos

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/22/13 05:42 PM

Serge,

What interested most people about the ROCOR WR was that it allowed individuals to create missions in the same way the average Eastern rite parish creates missions. In the USA you will find numerous Eastern rite antiochian missions that began with only 5 to 10 people and eventually reached over 100.

My understanding of the Antiochian Western rite vicariate is that you must have a larger sized church, rented or owned, with a more stable number of attendees (30 people or more?). You are not allowed to begin a western rite mission with the same freedoms of beginning a byzantine rite mission. So there is an inherent bias unfortunately. Many came to ROCOR not because they disliked the Antiochian WR or were more anti-catholic but because it was the only option open to them.

Fr. Aidan (formerly Alvin) Kimel, he is an associate priest at an Antiochian Western rite parish in Roanoke, VA and is very happy there. However , if I understand correctly, he was not able to enter through Antioch, but through ROCOR he was able to be a priest again and attack himself to the nearest parish, since he didnt bring one with him. This was the main solution ROCOR provided, the oppurtunity to evangelize and enter into the WR of Orthodoxy more freely, some think too freely.

In ROCOR at least one had the freedom to form missions with less restrictions. Ideally the way one forms an eastern or western rite mission should be equal. The priests should have the same qualifications, same education, same time period of ordination, etc. Perhaps ROCOR could have screened people better? Surely in life there are always different poles and extremes we are where we struggle to find the proper compromise. It can not happen instantly.

The preservation of the Sarum use as a living tradition is important, regardless if many find it irrelevant.I understand it's not a deal breaker for almost anyone to not have the Sarum use. That is alright.

What is interesting is that nearly all of the propers for the Sarum use are actually includedin the St. Tikhon liturgies. The Mass and Office ordinaries for "St. Tikhon's Liturgy" are more often elements of the BCP, but actual the propers are the true historic ones from before the reformation. (I guess it's missing "sequence" proses for feasts, but those could be added into it or sung as recessional after Mass.)

The deal breaker for many interested in the RC ordinariate has been the novus ordo components enforced upon them. The forbiddance of the traditional one year lectionary is a primary concern, beyond altar girls. Additionally as noted elsewhere, Monsignor Jeffrey Steenson is viewed as far too liberal, to the extent that he seemed to create an unnecessary wedge between the traditional latin mass and the anglican use mass. Compare this to ROCOR's Bishop Jerome who would intentionally celebrate a Salisbury use Roman Mass in Latin and a Salisbury use Roman Mass in english to show how they are the same thing regardless of language.

It would make sense at this point if the ROCOR WR became more similar to the Antiochian WR. The only thing I'd recommend ROCOR keep in it's WR, besides the option of the Sarum use, is "The Psalter for Prayer" by David James. That is an awesome correction of the coverdale psalter. Otherwise I think the ROCOR WR should use the exact same liturgies used in the Antiochian WR. I don't think they need to have 5 different slightly different versions of the Latin rite, not with such small size. Until you have thousands or millions of people and multiple monasteries you ought to have only 2 or 3 liturgies at the most.
Most people would be happier that way.

God will bring good out of this trying time.


Posted By: Xristoforos

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/22/13 05:59 PM

The majority of the outreach and evangelism with the Orthodox churches western rite vicariates has been to protestants. They were and are the majority in Antioch and ROCOR WR.

Though they are a minority, I have noticed a number of former Roman Catholics in different WR churches. However I have to say, of these former Roman Catholics a number of them, if they were not going to be in the Orthodox Church would more likely be in a protestant church or no church at all, rather than go back to the RC churches, which I think a number had felt their "bridges were burned" at.

I don't know of any ex-Catholics who switched to WR so they could be married and be priests. I do not think this is ever going to happen and rarely a concern to avoid in newcomers.

For the record, both ROCOR WR and Antiochian WR have two or three layman who were originally Roman Catholics who are now ordained priests for them. However, none of these layman intentionally joined them because they wanted to be married priests.

Being a married man who was a priest was never a primary reason but happened for completely different reasons. The main reason being that the Orthodox church allows and encourages it.

What is interesting is that the presence of former-Roman Catholics is much more profound within the byzantine rite of the Orthodox Church. That's where I think one is inclined to find fascinating surprises.

Posted By: Orthodox Catholic

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/22/13 10:21 PM

I have acquaintances who are/were in the ROCOR WR and the Antiochian WR as well as others within the Ordinariate.

The ease with which some of them move from one church to another is . . . well, very North American.

The ones I know are very traditionalist and they appear to place traditionalism, as they themselves define it, ahead of Orthodoxy or Catholicism.

The former ROCOR WR members I know tell me they were getting ready to leave ROCOR in any event.

I quipped that they now at least know what it means to be a Greek Catholic . . .

Funny? No? Sorry . . .

Alex
Posted By: Thomas the Seeker

ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/24/13 11:28 PM

There is still part of me that wishes that one Eastern jurisdiction would create a WR based on the Lutheran liturgy. The only WR at present are adapted from the Tridentine Mass or from Rite One of the Book of Common Prayer.

There are many Lutherans who are seeking a solid ecclesial community grounded in the Great Tradition: the ecumenical Creeds,the first four (possibly seven) ecumenical councils, and the historic liturgy.

Many found themselves in crisis when the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America decided to Ordain as Presbyters non-chaste homosexuals in "publicly accountable, monogamus relationships" and to teach that there are a plurality of definitions of "marriage".

That no Eastern jurisdiction has undertaken to embrace a "Lutheran WR" stikes me as squandered opportunity.
Posted By: bergschlawiner

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/25/13 12:28 AM

Maybe the next thing from Rome, a "Luteran ordinariate"
Posted By: Peter J

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/25/13 07:05 AM

Originally Posted by bergschlawiner
Maybe the next thing from Rome, a "Lutheran ordinariate"

That possibility has been discussed -- see, for example, here.

With all due respect to Rev. Martin Junge (who said that a Lutheran Ordinariate would have “serious ecumenical repercussions”) I have to imagine that there is somewhere in the world where a Lutheran Ordinariate would make sense. I don't know where, but somewhere.
Posted By: StuartK

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/25/13 10:11 AM

Minnesota, perhaps? I can't think of anywhere in Europe where you could find enough Lutherans who still care as to make a difference.
Posted By: Thomas the Seeker

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/25/13 11:31 AM

The centers of Lutheran orthodoxy (with appreciation for the episcopacy and high church liturgy) are Pennsylvania and North Carolina.

The midwest has its pockets of orthodox doctrine--after all, the conservative Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod and Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod are headquartered in that region--but there is a very broad pietistic/anticlerical streak.
Posted By: Peter J

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/25/13 12:05 PM

I think Norway would have been a possibility about a dozen years ago (if the Ordinariate idea had been developed back then). See the article Out on a limb in Norway.
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/25/13 04:29 PM

In fact, there are two High Church Lutheran groups I'm aware of which have written to Rome about this and who have been formally told to seek corporate union with Rome via the Anglican Ordinariate procedures.

They are now proceeding with that. Now, they do eschew the Lutheran theological heritage and don't like Luther at all. They have already accepted the Catholic Catechism and put pictures of the Pope up in their parishes. So how ritually "Lutheran" they are is an open question (other than their wide use of the Luther Rose and a few cultural Lutheran things).

Alex
Posted By: Peter J

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/25/13 05:02 PM

Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
In fact, there are two High Church Lutheran groups I'm aware of which have written to Rome about this and who have been formally told to seek corporate union with Rome via the Anglican Ordinariate procedures.

Interesting. I haven't heard of any, except the ALCC.
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/25/13 05:04 PM

Yes, that's one of them. I've been told there are others.
Posted By: Two Lungs

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/26/13 01:53 PM

Originally Posted by Peter J
I think Norway would have been a possibility about a dozen years ago (if the Ordinariate idea had been developed back then). See the article Out on a limb in Norway.


These Norwegians have apparently linked to the PNCC under the Union of Scranton.

http://dnkk.no/Sentrale%20sider%20-%20engelsk/index.htm
Posted By: Peter J

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/26/13 02:36 PM

Originally Posted by Two Lungs
Originally Posted by Peter J
I think Norway would have been a possibility about a dozen years ago (if the Ordinariate idea had been developed back then). See the article Out on a limb in Norway.

These Norwegians have apparently linked to the PNCC under the Union of Scranton.

http://dnkk.no/Sentrale%20sider%20-%20engelsk/index.htm

You're right, that's why I qualified it as "would have been a possibility about a dozen years ago". (I'm not trying to suggest that Rome would try to win-them-away from the Union of Scranton.)
Posted By: Michael_Thoma

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/26/13 02:49 PM

Originally Posted by Peter J
Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
In fact, there are two High Church Lutheran groups I'm aware of which have written to Rome about this and who have been formally told to seek corporate union with Rome via the Anglican Ordinariate procedures.

Interesting. I haven't heard of any, except the ALCC.


From what I've seen the ALCC is a sham operation, more clergy than laity, mostly online.
Posted By: Peter J

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/26/13 10:24 PM

Originally Posted by Michael_Thoma
Originally Posted by Peter J
Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
In fact, there are two High Church Lutheran groups I'm aware of which have written to Rome about this and who have been formally told to seek corporate union with Rome via the Anglican Ordinariate procedures.

Interesting. I haven't heard of any, except the ALCC.

From what I've seen the ALCC is a sham operation, more clergy than laity, mostly online.

As I understand it, they're an organization dedicated to convincing Lutherans and Anglicans to convert to Catholicism. I think some of their literature is a bit misleading, but "sham" seems overly harsh.
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/26/13 11:29 PM

Yes, they are true "Evangelical Catholics" of the Lutheran tradition who use ONLY the Catholic Catechism and pray ONLY the RC Divine Office etc.

And Rome takes them serious enough to have formally instructed them to follow the Ordinariate procedures to become an integral part of the Catholic Church.

They are only a "sham" to those who are anti-Catholic.

Alex
Posted By: BenjaminRH

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/28/13 09:49 PM

So what if your colleague sees an altar girl there, again?

Seems that we all lose sight of Christ in the midst of all these minor debates.
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/28/13 10:41 PM

Yes, that is the problem with "traditional" this or that. They make mountains out of mole-hills.

At least he is now where he believes he should have been from the beginning.

Alex
Posted By: Michael_Thoma

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/29/13 11:14 AM

Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Yes, they are true "Evangelical Catholics" of the Lutheran tradition who use ONLY the Catholic Catechism and pray ONLY the RC Divine Office etc.

And Rome takes them serious enough to have formally instructed them to follow the Ordinariate procedures to become an integral part of the Catholic Church.

They are only a "sham" to those who are anti-Catholic.

Alex
I'm definitely not Anti-Catholic, but I did some heavy research on this organization a few years back when their former "archbishop" claimed CDF was corresponding with them. The only source of information on their claims are themselves. The only one who said they were going to come in through the Ordinariate are themselves. I emailed Msgr. Steenson as soon as they stated that and made him aware of my concern with web links, etc.
The former "archbishop" and his wife had a wedding chapel in their home out of which they were promoting quickie weddings, etc. His wife was ordained online and performing these wedding as well. The group also is in "communion" with another body which does not necessarily wish to be Catholic, this other organizations head was the same "archbishop", who now claims to be a returned RC layman. The other strange thing that got me looking into this group is the current "archbishop's" vestment, which looks like a Malankara priest's style, with a RC bishops zucchetto, etc.
Posted By: Michael_Thoma

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/29/13 11:21 AM

Here is what I had in the email at the time, you may have to use the internet archives to fine some of these now defunct links:

Retired Lt. Colonel Irl Gladfelter, DDS is apparently well known in the independent church world. Not only does he and his crew of merry clerics run around keeping lineages from Old Catholic, to Episcopalian, to protestant, to Coptic, to Syriac, etc, etc.etc (a sure red flag!!), he also is affiliated to a chapel (which strangely is his house and cathedral I suppose) which performs quicky weddings. He claims it is his wife who performed weddings and such, but has recently resigned her former clerical credentials. Yet a simply google search will show his involvement in weddings, etc.

See here:
http://www.alpb.org/forum/index.php?topic=1528.45

and here:

http://www.catholic.org/hf/faith/sto...d=40492&page=2

and here:

http://www.alpb.org/forum/index.php?...6732#msg206732


Anytime Weddings
Kansas City, MO:
http://www.manta.com/g/mtkpvz8/irl-gladfelter

Formerly known as:
http://www.projectwedding.com/vendor...ity-ministries

Co-'consecrator' to women ordaining sect:
http://www.locva.org/index.php?id=50
Posted By: Michael_Thoma

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/29/13 11:52 AM

Oh - and this popped up while I was looking at one of the other links:

http://www.examiner.com/article/the-church-that-wants-to-go-out-of-business?render=print
Posted By: Peter J

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/29/13 12:05 PM

Originally Posted by Michael_Thoma
I'm definitely not Anti-Catholic

Your negaitve view of the ALCC suggests otherwise.

wink

J/k, but seriously, many of the specifics you related are news to me; but as I said earlier, there's definitely a lot of misleading stuff about the ALCC on the internet -- and I think that those who are gung-ho about conversions to Catholicism are particularly susceptible to it.
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/29/13 01:17 PM

OK, you're not anti-Catholic . . .

But when I come across a Lutheran who says he wants to belong to Rome, I jump on him and say, "Thank you Lord!" smile

If they pass muster with Rome, I'm OK with that - so should we all.

Alex
Posted By: Peter J

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/29/13 01:46 PM

Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
But when I come across a Lutheran who says he wants to belong to Rome, I jump on him and say, "Thank you Lord!" smile

That's not exactly the same as starting an organization dedicated to getting Lutherans to convert. grin
Posted By: haydukovich

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/29/13 02:05 PM

"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must be Eastern. The West was fully Orthodox for a thousand years, and her venerable liturgy is far older than any of her heresies." -St. John Maximovitch
Posted By: Michael_Thoma

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/29/13 02:40 PM

Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
OK, you're not anti-Catholic . . .

But when I come across a Lutheran who says he wants to belong to Rome, I jump on him and say, "Thank you Lord!" smile

If they pass muster with Rome, I'm OK with that - so should we all.

Alex
What about one who makes wild claims to being episcopal, says he's already Roman without being in Rome, performs Vegas weddings from his home, and evades any detailed questions?
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/29/13 11:44 PM

Dear Michael,

I agree with what Peter the Rock said about the internet. You could contact the head of that group and see what he has to say about things that concern you.

I always contact such individuals with my questions and I come away with different impressions than what the internet can afford me.

Don't know the answer to your questions - and the internet isn't the be all and end all.

Alex
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/29/13 11:44 PM

The same goes for all such organizations!
Posted By: Peter J

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/30/13 07:46 AM

Originally Posted by Michael_Thoma
What about one who makes wild claims to being episcopal, says he's already Roman without being in Rome, performs Vegas weddings from his home, and evades any detailed questions?

Well, I think there's some truth to the "says he's already Roman without being in Rome" part ... after all, the ALCC is an organization with the stated purpose of getting Lutherans and Anglicans to convert to Catholicism. (Conversely, if a Roman Catholic started an organization for getting Roman Catholics to convert to Anglicanism, I wouldn't be too surprised if people started saying that he/she was Anglican.)

That aside, I'd say that it is incumbent on the ALCC to present themselves accurately. But having said that, I also think that a large part of the success (in the sense of making a name for themselves, at least on the internet) is due to promoters who aren't officially affiliated with them. See for example:

http://www.theanglocatholic.com/tag/bishop-irl-gladfelter/
http://clericalwhispers.blogspot.com/2011/03/anglo-lutheran-catholics-to-enter.html
http://anglicansablaze.blogspot.com/2011/02/ordinariate-watch-anglo-lutheran.html
http://www.catholic.org/hf/faith/story.php?id=40492
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/30/13 04:48 PM

Dear Peter the Rock,

Hopefully, if this group is successful in getting a goodly number of Lutherans to become Catholic Michael Thoma won't be too upset then either! grin

Alex
Posted By: Peter J

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/30/13 05:50 PM

Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Dear Peter the Rock,

Hopefully, if this group is successful in getting a goodly number of Lutherans to become Catholic Michael Thoma won't be too upset then either! grin

Alex

confused
Posted By: chadrook

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/30/13 06:22 PM

Originally Posted by haydukovich
"Never, never, never let anyone tell you that, in order to be Orthodox, you must be Eastern. The West was fully Orthodox for a thousand years, and her venerable liturgy is far older than any of her heresies." -St. John Maximovitch 0


And do you know the rest of it? The problem with quoting St John, and anyone for that matter, there is always someone who was there who can add context to such a quote.

Remember he reposed in 1966, not to long ago. And how many western rite churches did he leave in his diocese?
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/30/13 06:55 PM

By the way much of Eastern Orthodoxy treats Western Riters, why would they even want to connect with it?

I now know 11 individuals, former Western Rite Orthodox, who are, in their own words, "coming home to Rome."

Rome and room enough.

Alex
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/30/13 06:55 PM

I was just kidding, Petros!

Alex
Posted By: Mythwin

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/31/13 09:05 AM

ROCOR is a bad joke
Posted By: Administrator

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/31/13 08:02 PM

Originally Posted by Mythwin
ROCOR is a bad joke

Can you please explain why you believe this?

I often attend Vigil at a ROCOR parish and it is prayerful and the people friendly and welcoming. My experience tells me that you are mistaken.

Best wishes!
Posted By: haydukovich

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 07/31/13 10:18 PM

I believe that quote was in response to research that St. John had done on the Liturgy of St Gregory - a Western Rite liturgy in use in an Orthodox Church in France.

I don't think that is out of context - it is a very specific quote regarding the use of a Western Liturgy in Orthodoxy.

As for implementing the Liturgy within his diocese - I'm not sure what was attempted or promoted if anything.
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 08/01/13 12:23 AM

Dear Mythwin,

Apart from the fact that, unlike the Administrator, whenever I enter a ROCOR parish I'm set upon to get me to convert (perhaps they really see something of value in me they would like to have all to themselves?), ROCOR is an EXAMPLE of Orthodox piety and tradition which my own former parish priest would compare my UGCC parish to by way of an "Eastern Standard."

My church's iconography was written by ROCOR iconographers. I really think you should go and visit with them before passing judgement.

Your ROCOR MYTH won't WIN, otherwise.

Hopefully, my last statement above won't disturb your dream-life tonight . . .

Alex
Posted By: Mythwin

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 08/01/13 03:15 PM

I work with Western Rite ROCOR . pleas tell that to the Family's of Two priest that committed suicide when they wear kick out. I personally know some of the Bishops in ROCOR and what they teach is not all orthodox tradition but man made laws they do not recognize anyone else's apostolic succession even know they been found valid by the roman catholic church I know from priest the transferred over. They're very arrogant and the act like the Pharisees. Please don't tell me that I don't know them when I do. I've seen what they did the Bishop Jerome
Posted By: chadrook

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 08/01/13 05:23 PM

Originally Posted by Mythwin
I work with Western Rite ROCOR . pleas tell that to the Family's of Two priest that committed suicide when they wear kick out. I personally know some of the Bishops in ROCOR and what they teach is not all orthodox tradition but man made laws they do not recognize anyone else's apostolic succession even know they been found valid by the roman catholic church I know from priest the transferred over. They're very arrogant and the act like the Pharisees. Please don't tell me that I don't know them when I do. I've seen what they did the Bishop Jerome


That's rather big news. Can you provide any more information on the two priest?
Posted By: StuartK

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 08/02/13 12:08 AM

Yeah, it would amount to what? A quarter or so of all its priests?
Posted By: Michael_Thoma

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 08/02/13 09:57 AM

Originally Posted by Thomas the Seeker
There is still part of me that wishes that one Eastern jurisdiction would create a WR based on the Lutheran liturgy. The only WR at present are adapted from the Tridentine Mass or from Rite One of the Book of Common Prayer.

There are many Lutherans who are seeking a solid ecclesial community grounded in the Great Tradition: the ecumenical Creeds,the first four (possibly seven) ecumenical councils, and the historic liturgy.

Many found themselves in crisis when the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America decided to Ordain as Presbyters non-chaste homosexuals in "publicly accountable, monogamus relationships" and to teach that there are a plurality of definitions of "marriage".

That no Eastern jurisdiction has undertaken to embrace a "Lutheran WR" stikes me as squandered opportunity.
Pastor Thomas, would you happen to know: are the "Ukrainian Lutherans" in communion with the historic Scandinavian Lutherans - the group with Bishops, ad orientem worship etc?
Posted By: Xristoforos

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 08/06/13 12:59 AM

For all those people who left the ROCOR WR vicariate, I want you to know what you're in for when you join the Anglican use Ordinariate of St. Peter. Yes it is not only altar girls, but you will have your priest "face the people", you'll have your own "Eudora Campese Memorial Columbarium" and much, much more. It is a package deal.

The Book of the Divine Worship liturgy is truly the "Mass of Paul the VI" at heart, with a little extra elizabethan language. The influence of the new order mass is all encompassing, all pervasive and seemingly inescapeable.

Christ the King Anglican Use Catholic Church Towson, MD
August 4, 2013
[Linked Image]

The two of these churches have in common that pervasive influence.

Melkite Greek Catholic Catedral San Jorge, Caracas - Venezuela, 2010
[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]

Neocatechumenal Way Rite Mass.
[Linked Image]


"To reverse the maxim "legem credendi lex statuat supplicandi, ("let the rule of prayer establish the rule of belief"), subordinating the standard of worship to the standard of belief, makes a shambles of the dialectic of revelation. It was a Presence, not faith, which drew Moses to the burning bush, and what happened there was a revelation, not a seminar. It was a Presence, not faith, which drew the disciples to Jesus, and what happened there was not an educational program but His revelation to them of Himself as the long-promised Anointed One, the redeeming because reconciling Messiah-Christos".41

Indeed the radical impulse to destroy the entire liturgical tradition and go back to Eucharists in the manner of the Last Supper is the inevitable consequence of applying the criteria of theological analysis to the sacred liturgy which, as a slowly growing humanly-ordered thing, cannot possibly have "come from the Lord complete and perfect" as Bossuet the elder said of the deposit of faith.

Posted By: JimG

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 08/06/13 08:40 AM

First, this whole piece is not only inflammatory but clearly designed to be misleading and displays a level of ignorance that is palpable. Personally, I can't care less about what the people in ROCOR WR do but hopefully they will base their decisions on facts and not nonsense like this.

The first picture is of an Ordinate congregation using what is a regular Roman Catholic church and, of course, the priest and the altar face the people which is the norm in such a church. I have attended Our Lady of Atonement parish in San Antonio many times and the altar faces the wall as is traditional in Anglican parishes.

Second, since my wife is a former Episcopalian I am quite familiar with the pre 1976 Book of Common Prayer. The Anglican Use liturgy is virtually identical except where short additions have been made to facilitate Roman Catholic elements of the Mass that are not in the BOCP.

The second picture is of an Eastern Catholic church in Venezuela that has been the source of extensive discussion on this site. It is generally agreed that these people have gone overboard but of course they are one church and have nothing to do with the Ordinate. Roman certainly did not force this hybridization on them.

I have no idea what the two ladies with guitars have to do with anything but I can certainly confirm for you that a lot of RC churches have people that play guitars. Of course, under the ROCOR reforms of the Western Rite those high church organs will go by the way side anyway. I have never seen a guitar at Our Lady of Atonement but they do have a Bach Choir I think.

As for the last picture, anyone who thinks the Neocatechuminate
Movement is representative of anything but a fringe group in the Roman Catholic church is just silly. Clearly this is the invocation of an extreme image from an extreme group to incite the reader.

I really have no dog in this fight but I am frustrated by such obviously nonsensical polemic.

For full disclosure, I should note that Our Lady of Atonement parish, which is the first Anglican Use parish in the U.S. has not yet chosen to join the Ordinate. They are apparently are perfectly happy at the moment to be a parish of the Archdiocese of San Antonio and seem to be withstanding the pressures of Romanization quite well.
Posted By: StuartK

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 08/06/13 09:07 AM

Quote
The first picture is of an Ordinate congregation using what is a regular Roman Catholic church and, of course, the priest and the altar face the people which is the norm in such a church.


The table is free standing and has four sides. The celebrant can stand at one just as easily as the other.

Quote
I have attended Our Lady of Atonement parish in San Antonio many times and the altar faces the wall as is traditional in Anglican parishes.


Where the altar is not free-standing, one has no choice.

Quote
Second, since my wife is a former Episcopalian I am quite familiar with the pre 1976 Book of Common Prayer. The Anglican Use liturgy is virtually identical except where short additions have been made to facilitate Roman Catholic elements of the Mass that are not in the BOCP.


The real hard core would ask, "Why not 1928?"

Quote
The second picture is of an Eastern Catholic church in Venezuela that has been the source of extensive discussion on this site. It is generally agreed that these people have gone overboard but of course they are one church and have nothing to do with the Ordinate. Roman certainly did not force this hybridization on them.


I'm pretty sure if the Synod had the resources, it would do what it could to suppress these abuses. As it is, the situation closer to home dominates their concerns.

Quote
As for the last picture, anyone who thinks the Neocatechuminate
Movement is representative of anything but a fringe group in the Roman Catholic church is just silly. Clearly this is the invocation of an extreme image from an extreme group to incite the reader.


Agreed. I also wonder why the movement has not been suppressed.

Quote
For full disclosure, I should note that Our Lady of Atonement parish, which is the first Anglican Use parish in the U.S. has not yet chosen to join the Ordinate. They are apparently are perfectly happy at the moment to be a parish of the Archdiocese of San Antonio and seem to be withstanding the pressures of Romanization quite well.


Quite good to hear. Had more bishops been more accommodating, an Ordinariate wold not have been necessary.
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 08/06/13 11:29 AM

Dear Mythwin,

I sincerely apologise to you!

Should keep my big mouth shut.

Alex
Posted By: DMD

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 08/06/13 12:02 PM

Interesting question, as in the Slovak regions of the Rusyns, there were, and are, Slovak Lutheran communities. Were there any in Transcarpathia prior to World War 2? If so, are they still there today? Just wondering, as they, like us are sort of being assimilated in the States, but wherever we lived, there was one of their small Churches in the neighborhood.
Posted By: JimG

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 08/06/13 02:02 PM

Stuart

It is a pleasure to have such an eminent scholar as yourself respond to my humble missive. As to the first point, it is still a requirement, as I understand it, that fixed altars, as opposed to movable tables, contain relics. Even when the altar faced the wall it held relics. Those relics were and are located on the part of the altar where the priest consecrates the Eucharist. Of course, on the altar in question that would be on the side on which the priest in the picture is elevating the host. It would be inappropriate to use the other side of the altar which would dishonor the saint whose relics are present. Of course, this is just speculation on my part since I am not about to go to the church in question to investigate.

Although I am not a historian like yourself, I believe the 1928 BOCP was the one the proceeded the current revision. It is the one used as the basis of the Anglican Use liturgy.
Were you suggesting using the 1892 or the 1789 versions?

You are right about the next point, having your bishops kidnapped, your parishioners and priest shot and your churches blown up does take some precedence over what happens in Venezuela. Actually, almost everything takes precedence over what happens in Venezuela.

As for the Neocatechumate Way I would agree with you that they should have been repressed long ago, along with a bunch of other movements. The experience with the Lefevrites and the Legionaires of Christ demonstrates how successful the Church is at suppressing fringe groups. Although a very casual search of the net will show anyone that while the RCC has its serious nut cases, the Orthodox have a plague of them. Simply crying that they are non-canonical hardly absolves the whole of Orthodoxy from any blame since there seems to be very little meaning to the term canonical in any practical sense as the existence of the OCA proves.

You are right about the last point but isn't that the same thing one could say about the Ruthenians and other Eastern Catholics as well as the PNCC. Bishops are the problem. It is true you can't live with them and you can't live without them.
Posted By: Xristoforos

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 08/06/13 05:24 PM

Originally Posted by JimG
The first picture is of an Ordinate congregation using what is a regular Roman Catholic church and, of course, the priest and the altar face the people which is the norm in such a church. I have attended Our Lady of Atonement parish in San Antonio many times and the altar faces the wall as is traditional in Anglican parishes.


No, Jim, you are mistaken, the picture really is of a bonafide, independent from the diocese Anglican use "Ordinariate" Roman Catholic Church that intentionally chooses to "face the people" and turn their altar around. Unlike in England, there is no mandatory ad orientem worship, they are free to do as they please. They have owned their own church building for many years, I assure you that it is is not a regular RC diocesan building. Nor is Christ the King the only anglican use parish in the USA that is discouraging ad orientem worship.

http://www.ctktowson.org/ http://www.ctktowson.org/
https://www.facebook.com/pages/Christ-the-King-Catholic-Church-Towson-MD/132389240275978?ref=bf https://www.facebook.com/pages/Christ-the-King-Catholic-Church-Towson-MD/132389240275978?ref=bf

Take a look at their websites.

What JimG calls the fringe - I call the slippery slope of post-modernism. The 1979 /1976 BCP, which the Book of Divine Worship imitates for the most part, is an ecumenical new order of mass copy cat and dos not reflect the use of true anglo-catholic parishes, everyone knows that. One uses the 3 year lectionary that was made up in a "committee of experts" the other uses the 1500 year old 1 year lectionary that was carefully slowly formed by countless bishops and saints of the historic faith.

Some are happy being in a compromised position, others find it dangerous.

I'm not inflammatory, but I am honest.

BTW ROCOR WR churches are allowed to use organs, the one in Tullytown, PA uses an organ every Sunday, it is up to the individual priest to determine whether or not to use or buy an organ.
Posted By: Michael_Thoma

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 08/06/13 05:28 PM

Xristoforos,

This parish did not come out of an Anglo-Catholic ethos, nor the TAC, nor the Episcopal denomination.

From their site:

About Our Parish

Christ the King Church is a community of faithful Christian believers of all ages in the Greater Baltimore area. Founded in April, 1996 as a parish of the Charismatic Episcopal Church, and later in the Anglican Church in America, Christ the King became a Roman Catholic parish in The Personal Ordinariate of the Chair of St. Peter, under the provisions of Pope Benedict XVI’s Apostolic Constitution Anglicanorum Coetibus.

On June 24th, 2012, Christ the King, together with its clergy and congregation, was received into the Ordinariate by the Rev. Msgr. Jeffrey N. Steenson, Ordinary.

As a former Anglican parish with Charismatic roots, our Sunday Mass features both traditional hymnody and contemporary praise songs, coupled with the forthright preaching of the Word of God, all centered on the celebration and reception of the Holy Eucharist
Posted By: StuartK

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 08/06/13 05:31 PM

My understanding from my Anglican friends is the 1978 BCP introduced a number of changes with which they did not concur, which is why traditional parishes use the 1928 version.

On the altar: I have served at the Divine Liturgy numerous times in the Crypt Church of the Shine of the Immaculate Conception in Washington, which has a free-standing altar (marble) atop a raised platform. In every instance, the bishop celebrating the Liturgy faced east. whereas, I presume, a Latin celebrant would be on the other side of the Table. I personally, have never heard of this rubric you cite, but it strikes me that maintenance of the Tradition of celebration versus apsidem would take precedence over any potential dishonor to the saints whose relics are embedded in the altar. I am sure they will understand..
Posted By: eastwardlean?

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 08/06/13 06:14 PM

I have never attended a Roman Catholic church, either of 'Anglican use' nor of the Ordinariate.

As I understand it, Rite I of the more recent prayerbook essentially preserves the older service. Many were disappointed with the changes in the language. (And indeed, the language of the older rite is beautiful.) There is a small irony in the fact that the newer rite is more catholic. Some of the traditionalists who rejected the newer prayerbook rejected it precisely on these grounds, for example, the Reformed Episcopal Church. But many Anglo-Catholics prefer the older rite too.

I would expect that there is a little more diversity within the Ordinariate than you are suggesting, Xristoforos.

Posted By: Xristoforos

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 08/06/13 11:50 PM

Originally Posted by StuartK
Quote
As for the last picture, anyone who thinks the Neocatechuminate Movement is representative of anything but a fringe group in the Roman Catholic church is just silly. Clearly this is the invocation of an extreme image from an extreme group to incite the reader.


Agreed. I also wonder why the movement has not been suppressed.


Over 20,000 "Neocatechumenal communities" with over a million members have been formed in parishes around the world.

http://www.zenit.org/en/articles/neocatechumenal-way-initiators-meet-with-pope-francis

"The Neocatechumenal Way, an itinerary of Christian formation, were among the communities, movements and lay associations present on Saturday’s vigil with the Holy Father. An estimated 15,000 members of the Way from Rome were present at the meeting held in St. Peter’s Square."

That my friends is most definitely not fringe.

Good grief, there are far less people attending anglican use or latin masses in the world than neocat masses....
Posted By: StuartK

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 08/06/13 11:52 PM

Number of members is not a useful criterion for determining orthodoxy.
Posted By: Xristoforos

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 08/07/13 12:13 AM

Originally Posted by StuartK
My understanding from my Anglican friends is the 1978 BCP introduced a number of changes with which they did not concur, which is why traditional parishes use the 1928 version.


Yes, this is precisely it, Stuart. That's the patrimony that should be readily easily able to use in anglican use of the roman catholic church. What did the Liturgy of St. Tikhon of the Antiochian Orthodox WR do but put the 1928? What did the Sarum use of ROCOR do but go to a slightly earlier date, the collects and propers of the Tikohn and Sarum are identical. THAT is the patrimony that anglican use should be using on an everyday basis.


Analysis of Western Rite Orthodox A... devout Roman Catholic in good standing) http://psallitesapienter.blogspot.com/2009/12/western-rite-orthodox-anglican.html

Quote
Except for a few days of the year that havent changed, you can't use those with the novus ordo lectionary, on an ordinary Sunday it doesnt make sense. I'm not saying the Anglican use of the RC is hopeless, but it really needs serious improvements , many of which the Orthodox versions already contain.But to be fair, let these (unquestionably valid!) liturgies be contrasted now with Rome's first try at providing Anglicans with a Use of their own, in the Book of Divine Worship...

Firstly, the B.D.W. is based largely upon the U.S. 1979 B.C.P, whereas the two Orthodox liturgies are based upon the U.S. 1928 B.C.P. I must say that the 1928 is probably more what traditionally-minded Anglicans prefer.

Secondly, I must say, unfortunately, the B.D.W. appoints the use of the modern Roman Lectionary in place of the B.C.P. system of readings, which derive from the Sarum Use of the Roman Rite. From what I know, the Orthodox forms utilize the B.C.P. system, suitably augmented.

Thirdly, and rather notoriously, the modern Novus Ordo offertory prayers are inserted holus bolus, including those dreadfully lame ICEL translations of the "prayers over the gifts".

Fourthly, the whole Roman Canon - in a pleasingly traditional translation - is inserted as the Eucharistic Prayer. It appears that it was a step too far for Roman liturgists of the 1980's to try and modify the Prayers of Consecration and Oblation to produce a satisfactory Anglican Canon. But stay! Two more Novus Ordo intrusions are present: the actual words of consecration are taken from the modern ICEL version, and likewise the Memorial Acclamations are inserted.[i][/i]


I think that the Roman Catholic Churches they need allow these books to be used with ease. Otherwise, things don't really add up and have any consistency.

www.sarum-chant.cahttp://www.humanities.mcmaster.ca/~renwick/Annex/Sarum%20Hymnal%20Part%201.pdf http://www.humanities.mcmaster.ca/~renwick/Annex/Sarum%20Hymnal%20Part%201.pdf

Sarum English Performing Gradual beta.
http://www.humanities.mcmaster.ca/~renwick/Sarum%20Performing%20Graduale%20beta.pdf

Plainchant Gradual (Burgess/Palmer), parts 1 and 2 http://media.musicasacra.com/books/plainchant_gradual_1-2.pdf
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 08/07/13 10:16 AM

Not all those in the Ordinariate emphasize liturgy.

There are those among them who have joined the Ordinariate (or an Orthodox Western-Rite parish) in protest against the moral (as opposed to simply liturgical) laxity in Anglicanism, including, as they say, "priestesses" and "bishopesses."

Some prefer the Catholic Ordinariate over any Orthodox Western Rite because, according to them, Orthodoxy is less definite on artificial birth control, divorce and abortion etc.

Alex
Posted By: haydukovich

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 08/20/13 03:02 PM

The numbers however do reveal a lot about a church ...

Roman Catholic attendees USA 75,400,000 (75 MILLION)

Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic 646,243 (this may not be regular attendees but it is the only number I could find)

Melkite in USA ??

ROCOR - estimate across 154 parishes 67,000 (very very generous)

so ROCOR has .000893 of a percent vs Roman Catholic
and about 1% of all ORTHODOX IN USA (statisically Zero)
and comprise about 10 percent versus Ruthenian presence in USA

Ruthenians come in at .008617 of a percent of Roman Catholics
and .122629 percent of all Orthodox in the USA

Orthodoxy versus Roman Catholicism in the USA 7% Orthodox
(in communion with each other?????)

Please correct my math if you find it wrong (including inflated numbers of attendees in the churches)
Posted By: StuartK

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 08/20/13 04:03 PM

Quote
Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic 646,243 (this may not be regular attendees but it is the only number I could find)


Actually, 85,000, according to Ron Roberson's latest survey (and probably high)

Quote
Melkite in USA ??


Approximately 25,000 (adjusted downward from 29,000, so probably close to the mark)

But what was your point?
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 08/20/13 04:32 PM

Dear Haydukovich,

Yes, what do the numbers reveal?

Alex
Posted By: Job

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 08/20/13 08:33 PM

Quote
Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic 646,243 (this may not be regular attendees but it is the only number I could find)


Where did you get this number? Seems like it is about 600k too high. I know the Ruthenians have played with the numbers in the past to justify having 4 eparchies. But I thought that was corrected some years back.
Posted By: Fr. Deacon Lance

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 08/20/13 10:50 PM

Originally Posted by Job
Quote
Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic 646,243 (this may not be regular attendees but it is the only number I could find)


Where did you get this number? Seems like it is about 600k too high. I know the Ruthenians have played with the numbers in the past to justify having 4 eparchies. But I thought that was corrected some years back.


That is the 2010 number for all Ruthenian Eparchies incuding Europe.
Posted By: haydukovich

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 08/21/13 01:10 AM

The discussion is about ROCOR - and the Western Rite.

I was just trying to wrap my head around how many people are affected - what the total impact is.

If the Ruthenian number is THAT wrong - then surely the USA ROCOR must be smaller than the USA Ruthenian (I think) - the number of Western Rite attendee's must be very low indeed.

I just think it is very interesting to look at numbers of laity especially when the discussion is the impact of such an announcement in ROCOR.

I did some internet searches for the numbers - I was a bit shocked at the 646,000 number for Ruthenians as what I read said it was quoted as for America - hey it came from the internet it must be right ...

Thank you for the corrections.
Posted By: haydukovich

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 08/21/13 01:27 AM

But also like Stuart said ... the number of laity indicates nothing about Orthodoxy of the group.

Those numbers were just an exercise best left inside my head but I charged ahead and posted it.

Posted By: chadrook

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 08/21/13 10:31 AM

The vast majority of the WR in ROCOR, were simply the priest and his family.
Posted By: t_chan

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 08/21/13 11:09 AM

Re: Atonement. The parish was going to petition to join the ordinariate but at the present time is unable to do so.
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 08/21/13 11:54 AM

Dear chadrook,

But I knew a WR ROCOR parish and a monastery - you are simply, well, not correct . . .

There was a setback in all this, that Orthodoxy is what many Westerners think it is - largely a religious-CULTURAL phenomenon that has little to say to the West.

Alex
Posted By: haydukovich

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 08/21/13 04:24 PM

And if that is true Alex - what a sad state of affairs
Posted By: chadrook

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 08/21/13 10:20 PM

Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Dear chadrook,

But I knew a WR ROCOR parish and a monastery - you are simply, well, not correct . . .

There was a setback in all this, that Orthodoxy is what many Westerners think it is - largely a religious-CULTURAL phenomenon that has little to say to the West.

Alex


Well you say you only knew a parish and a monastery. What else? Is your conclusion drawn from the two places you have seen?

Of course, I can restate my conclusion, but with different premisses. I will simply say that the majority of WR parishes in the Midwest and West, are the priest and their family.

And it can be seen in the directory as well.Is it not a cultural thing if you are unwilling to give up western liturgies? Refusing to use English in a liturgy is a cultural thing, but the Liturgy of St John Chrysostom is Orthodoxy.

I know, I know the theology is the same and all, but in our modern border-less world is it really? Does the WR represent the faith found in the rest of ROCOR? I don't think it did.
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 08/21/13 10:22 PM

Aye, sir.

However, there is always the Antiochian Orthodox Church!

It is really a magnificent Patriarchate and truly "catholic" in its universal outreach.

I just loved their conference in Toronto and could see up close how truly spiritually and culturally diverse they are, with two Western Rites (for former Anglicans and Roman Catholics) and one "Evangelical Orthodox" tradition or Byzantine with evangelical preaching et al. thrown in.

Two Western Rite converts who were priests saw me deeply reverence the hand of their Metropolitan Phillip. They later joked, "Alex, why are you showing him greater respect than we would? You're an outsider."

In reply, I said, "Anyone who can bring such two fine gentlemen up from out of the abyss as he has deserves the utmost of devotion . . ."

Alex


Posted By: chadrook

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 08/21/13 10:31 PM

Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Aye, sir.

However, there is always the Antiochian Orthodox Church!

It is really a magnificent Patriarchate and truly "catholic" in its universal outreach.

I just loved their conference in Toronto and could see up close how truly spiritually and culturally diverse they are, with two Western Rites (for former Anglicans and Roman Catholics) and one "Evangelical Orthodox" tradition or Byzantine with evangelical preaching et al. thrown in.

Two Western Rite converts who were priests saw me deeply reverence the hand of their Metropolitan Phillip. They later joked, "Alex, why are you showing him greater respect than we would? You're an outsider."

In reply, I said, "Anyone who can bring such two fine gentlemen up from out of the abyss as he has deserves the utmost of devotion . . ."

Alex




And it would be easier to be WR when you only have one ruling bishop. You are right, they really are "Catholic."
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 08/21/13 10:40 PM

Thank you for the compliment, Chad!

At least I hope and pray it was . . . wink

Alex
Posted By: chadrook

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 08/22/13 07:06 AM

Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Thank you for the compliment, Chad!

At least I hope and pray it was . . . wink

Alex


More like snarky. But not towards you. I was commenting on the situation found in the Antiochians. They remind me of Byzantine Catholics, but in all the worst ways. Like the Latins that fill the pews in Ruthinian churches because they don't like the way things are going in the Latin church. But are unwilling to give up their pre-concieved ideas as to what it means to be, as you say, Eastern Christian.

The Antiochians have the protestant converts that bring their strange ideas and methods. And Met. Phillip disdains monasticism. This is inconceivable in the Orthodox world. So...
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 08/22/13 08:42 AM

Dear Chad,

I can't say that I disagree with you.

We have a bishop like that too . . .

Alex
Posted By: DMD

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 08/23/13 08:46 AM

Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Dear Chad,

I can't say that I disagree with you.

We have a bishop like that too . . .

Alex


I have to defend Metropolitan Philip with respect to the oft repeated charge that he "disdains" monasticism. A careful reading of his position over the years is that he disdains a false monasticism which becomes cult-like and totally independent from the true body of the Church. Self annointed "Elders" who advise the faithful in ways contrary to their parish priests and diocesan bishops have been a source of some issues in Orthodoxy in America and he is rightly objecting to such non traditional behavior. Of course the definition of what constitutes non traditional behavior is a source of great vexation and distraction among us in the Orthodox World. But, as they say, I know it when I see it.
Posted By: chadrook

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 08/23/13 08:56 AM

Originally Posted by DMD
Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Dear Chad,

I can't say that I disagree with you.

We have a bishop like that too . . .

Alex


I have to defend Metropolitan Philip with respect to the oft repeated charge that he "disdains" monasticism. A careful reading of his position over the years is that he disdains a false monasticism which becomes cult-like and totally independent from the true body of the Church. Self annointed "Elders" who advise the faithful in ways contrary to their parish priests and diocesan bishops have been a source of some issues in Orthodoxy in America and he is rightly objecting to such non traditional behavior. Of course the definition of what constitutes non traditional behavior is a source of great vexation and distraction among us in the Orthodox World. But, as they say, I know it when I see it.


And I have seen and heard from the "horses mouth if you will," more than enough to support my statement. I am willing to be corrected and figure my view is askew; so show me to the Antiochian monastery.

I guess monasteries are to much of a financial drain. America's money is needed elsewhere.
Posted By: DMD

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 08/23/13 02:08 PM

Originally Posted by chadrook
Originally Posted by DMD
Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Dear Chad,

I can't say that I disagree with you.

We have a bishop like that too . . .

Alex


I have to defend Metropolitan Philip with respect to the oft repeated charge that he "disdains" monasticism. A careful reading of his position over the years is that he disdains a false monasticism which becomes cult-like and totally independent from the true body of the Church. Self annointed "Elders" who advise the faithful in ways contrary to their parish priests and diocesan bishops have been a source of some issues in Orthodoxy in America and he is rightly objecting to such non traditional behavior. Of course the definition of what constitutes non traditional behavior is a source of great vexation and distraction among us in the Orthodox World. But, as they say, I know it when I see it.


And I have seen and heard from the "horses mouth if you will," more than enough to support my statement. I am willing to be corrected and figure my view is askew; so show me to the Antiochian monastery.

I guess monasteries are to much of a financial drain. America's money is needed elsewhere.


Correct me if I am wrong, but doe not your jurisdiction view me, my bishops, my clergy ,faithful and those in communion with us as being at best schismatics and most likely as graceless heretics? That being the case, why should the policies of Metropolitan Philip or any other of the "world Orthodox" be of any concern to you? The anathemas proclaimed on us by numerous Old Calendarists don't really bother or concern us. (I know personally how the local GOC priest has treated efforts by other local Orthodox clergy to be civil and include him in at least clergy gatherings over the years including his time with ROCOR before he led the schism in that already fractured parish, let alone participation in any church functions. He is clear in his views of us, hence I assume his is the teaching of the GOC in general. If not, I apologize in advance.)
Posted By: chadrook

Re: ROCOR Western Rite Disappears? - 08/23/13 08:14 PM

Originally Posted by DMD
Originally Posted by chadrook
Originally Posted by DMD
Originally Posted by Orthodox Catholic
Dear Chad,

I can't say that I disagree with you.

We have a bishop like that too . . .

Alex


I have to defend Metropolitan Philip with respect to the oft repeated charge that he "disdains" monasticism. A careful reading of his position over the years is that he disdains a false monasticism which becomes cult-like and totally independent from the true body of the Church. Self annointed "Elders" who advise the faithful in ways contrary to their parish priests and diocesan bishops have been a source of some issues in Orthodoxy in America and he is rightly objecting to such non traditional behavior. Of course the definition of what constitutes non traditional behavior is a source of great vexation and distraction among us in the Orthodox World. But, as they say, I know it when I see it.


And I have seen and heard from the "horses mouth if you will," more than enough to support my statement. I am willing to be corrected and figure my view is askew; so show me to the Antiochian monastery.

I guess monasteries are to much of a financial drain. America's money is needed elsewhere.


Correct me if I am wrong, but doe not your jurisdiction view me, my bishops, my clergy ,faithful and those in communion with us as being at best schismatics and most likely as graceless heretics? That being the case, why should the policies of Metropolitan Philip or any other of the "world Orthodox" be of any concern to you? The anathemas proclaimed on us by numerous Old Calendarists don't really bother or concern us. (I know personally how the local GOC priest has treated efforts by other local Orthodox clergy to be civil and include him in at least clergy gatherings over the years including his time with ROCOR before he led the schism in that already fractured parish, let alone participation in any church functions. He is clear in his views of us, hence I assume his is the teaching of the GOC in general. If not, I apologize in advance.)


Is the apology for the Ad hominem?

Is my question hostage until I answer your question? You certainly wear you heart on your sleeve. I run into this a lot when it comes to the overly ethnic. But that is really a cultural thing. In the context of High and low culture societies.

This choice of communication styles translates into a culture that will cater to in-groups, an in-group being a group that has similar experiences and expectations, from which inferences are drawn. In a high context culture, many things are left unsaid, letting the culture explain. Words and word choice become very important in higher context communication, since a few words can communicate a complex message very effectively to an in-group (but less effectively outside that group), while in a lower context culture, the communicator needs to be much more explicit and the value of a single word is less important.

I come from a low context culture. That being said; When I ask where are all the monasteries, that's just what I mean.

If you wish to start a thread about my synod, go ahead we could use the exposure.
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