No, I am implying that several Orthodox Christians will state that the Catholic Church has fully valid mysteries and are simply separated brothers.
I would say, more than several.
I know that experiences differ from place to place but here are some things I have ran into.
"The form of worship is unapologetically Western while maintaining the richness of our Eastern Spirituality delivered once to the saints. When the Roman Church separated from Orthodox unity in 1054 her Western Rite (style of Worship/ Liturgy) was perfectly “Orthodox.” She maintained this holy Apostolic Rite up until the mid 1960’s when their forms of worship were radically and tragically altered. In the 19th century, venerable saints such as Sts. John Maximovich (the Wonderworker) and Tikon restored the Western forms of worship to Orthodox Church." http://www.saintbrigit.org/2.htmlhttp://www.saintbrigit.org/3.html
"After a number of centuries, various differences in theology and practice arose between the Eastern and Western churches. This resulted in the initial split in 1054 and culminated in the sack of Constantinople in 1204. The Western church became known as the Roman Catholic Church and the Eastern church continued on as the Orthodox Catholic Church."http://www.stmichaeloc.org/
So from these two examples you get the feeling that it is theological differences that brought them to Orthodoxy. But the reality is much different, correct?
To add to the fray; On the issue of papal Catholic sacraments:From Orthodox Priest Alexander Lebedeff via Orthodox priest monk Ambrose Mooney of New Zealand:
Actually, not just the position of the Russian Orthodox Church during the
past 400 years, but the position of the whole Church up until Patriarch
Cyril and the Tomos of 1755.
I would suggest careful reading of the following.
The best Greek theologian and scholar to write on this issue, Fr. George Metallinos, in his book "I confess One Baptism" (available on-line) writes:
"According to the prevailing view, after the schism the Orthodox Church recognized ''the validity of the Latin sacraments,'' and indeed that of baptism. Upon their conversion, the Church applied Canon VII of the Second Ecumenical Council or XCV of Penthekte to them, or occasionally received them by a mere recantation of their foreign doctrines. Even after the Crusades and the Council of Ferrara/Florence (1438-1439), when the relations between Orthodox and Latins became strained, and the stance of the Orthodox East in dealing with the Latins became more austere,  the East considered the application of Canon VII of the Second Ecumenical Council to be an adequate measure of defense, that is she received them by chrismation and a written statement. This action was officially ratified by the Local Council of Constantinople in 1484, with the participation, moreover, of all the Patriarchs of the East.
This Council also wrote an appropriate service. Thus, according to I. Karmiris (and also according to the arguments of the Latinizers and pro-westerners during the Turkish rule), the cases of ''rebaptism'' were exceptions, owing ''to individual initiative,'' and ''not to an authoritative decision of the Church.''
"This custom, however, was overturned in 1755 under Cyril V, Patriarch of Constantinople, by the imposing of the (re)baptism of Latins and all Western converts in general, again through the application of Canon VII of the Second Ecumenical Council and the other relevant Canons of the Church. This action, to this day the last ''official'' decision of the Orthodox Church, was opposed by those who disagreed. It was considered to have subverted the decision of the Council of 1484. because of its circumstantial character, not having gained universal acceptance and application, it was often not adhered to. In addition, the practice of the Russian Church from 1667 differed from that of the other Orthodox Patriarchates, and indeed that of Constantinople. This, then, is what is commonly accepted to this day concerning the issue in question."http://www.oodegr.com/english/biblia/baptisma1/B6.htm
Here we see that the prevailing view was that the Orthodox Church, since 1054, "accepted the validity of the Latin sacraments" and that even after the Council of Florence, when relations between the East and the West had totally deteriorated, the Council of Constantinople of 1484, at which all four Eastern Patriarchs participated, decreed that Latins should be accepted by Chrismation and a written statement, and, more importantly, this Council created a special service for the Reception of Converts according to the mandated form (Chrismation after giving a statement renouncing false teachings and professing the Orthodox faith).
Fr. Metallinos underscores that the Oros of 1755 under Cyril V
**overturned** this previously established custom.
It is critical to note that the Russian Church **NEVER** accepted the Oros
of 1755 as being binding for it, and continues to this day to consider as
prevailing the decision of the Council of Constantinople
in 1484, which directed that Latins NOT be baptized. This was confirmed at
the Council of the Russian Church in 1667--the last time that a Council of
the Russian Church addressed this issue.
In fact, it would have been impossible for a Council of the Russian Orthodox
Church to have accepted the Oros of 1755, since there WERE NO Councils of
the Russian Church held from 1690 until 1917!!!
The Russian Church Council in 1667, at which two Patriarchs of the East
participated, had previously sent queries to ALL of the ancient Patriarchs,
asking for their opinion on this question. The unanimous
reply of all four Patriarchs confirmed the position of the 1484 Council of
Constantinople--that Latins were not to be repabtized.
Fr. George Metallinos writes: "The Council of Moscow in 1620-21 decided to
baptize Western converts. However, the ''great'' Council of Moscow in
1666-67, in which the Patriarchs of Alexandria and Antioch also
participated, approved the decision of the 1484 Council of Constantinople,
and thus rejected the (re)baptism of Western converts."
We must remember tyhat Fr. George Metallinos' work is based on the positions
of the Kollyvades Fathers, especially Neophytos and C. Oikonomos. Still, he
"Nevertheless, the Council of Constantinople in 1484 creates the greatest
difficulties for an acceptance of our theologian's position on Latin
baptism. This Council decided ''only to anoint with chrism
the Latins who come over to Orthodoxy,.after they submit a written statement
of faith.'' In other words, it ranks them in the class of the Arians and
Macedonians of the Second Ecumenical Council (Canon
In a footnore, Metallinos quotes Bishop Kallistos Ware:
"Ware writes in this connection: ''Neither of these Councils [i.e.
Constantinople, 1484, and Moscow, 1667] was exposed to foreign pressure or
acted from fear of Papist reprisals"
So it is totally incorrect to attribute the position of the Russian Church
regarding accepting as valid the baptism of the Latins to Peter the Great or
to Western influence.
Actually, regarding Peter I, Metallinos quotes from a reply in 1718 of
Ecumenical Patriarch Jeremias III to Czar Peter the Great, in which the
Patriarch directs the Czar to receive Latins ''by mere
Metallinos is forced to admit that even the theologian he uses as the basis
for his thesis, C. Oikonomos, wrote the following:
"''I honor and respect the Russian Church as the undefiled bride of Christ
and inseparable from her Bridegroom, and in addition as my own benefactress,
by which the Lord has done and shall do many great and marvelous things, as
she unerringly and verily follows the rule of piety. Hence, I do not doubt
that it was in a spirit of discernment that she chose the older rule, in
accordance with which she accepts
the baptism of the other Churches [sic], merely chrismating those who join
when they renounce their patrimonial beliefs with a written statement and
confess those of the Orthodox faith.''"
Here we have the clear statement of Metallinos chief theologian that the
Church of Russia chooses to follow what he calls "the **older rule**, in
accordance with which she accepts the baptism of other
Now, please tell me how is the position stated by Archbishop Hilarion of
Volokolamsk any different from the position of the Russian Church has held
since 1667, which is based on the decision of the Council of the Four
Patriarchs of 1484?
With love in Christ,
Prot. Alexander Lebedeff https://www.facebook.com/groups/323912757639023/permalink/625204300843199/
So what is the consensus? The western rite says Rome is wrong and the Orthodox says Rome is ok?
To clarify, I am usually considered a schismatic at best when it comes to my use of the word traditional. Even though our bishops trace their linage through ROCA and St. Philaret.