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Candidates for the Slovak Catholic Eparchy, Toronto

Posted By: UkrCathLDN

Candidates for the Slovak Catholic Eparchy, Toronto - 07/17/16 02:27 AM

I am interested in knowing whether the Holy Father will appoint a North American or European candidate for the episcopacy ?

Any thoughts?
Posted By: ast82401

Re: Candidates for the Slovak Catholic Eparchy, Toronto - 07/17/16 07:11 AM

Most likely, but the question is who?


Posted By: UkrCathLDN

Re: Candidates for the Slovak Catholic Eparchy, Toronto - 07/17/16 11:30 AM

Most likely to North American or European?
Posted By: Fr. Deacon Lance

Re: Candidates for the Slovak Catholic Eparchy, Toronto - 07/17/16 05:48 PM

Given their small size and the loss of their patron, I would not look for any replacement but for US Ruthenian bishops to continue to be named administrators if not the Eparchy being outright suppressed and the parishes added to Pittsburgh or Parma.
Posted By: UkrCathLDN

Re: Candidates for the Slovak Catholic Eparchy, Toronto - 07/18/16 02:32 PM

How many parishes and priests do they have?
Posted By: Fr. Deacon Lance

Re: Candidates for the Slovak Catholic Eparchy, Toronto - 07/18/16 03:59 PM

5 parishes, 5 priests.
Posted By: ast82401

Re: Candidates for the Slovak Catholic Eparchy, Toronto - 07/22/16 02:58 AM

Could one of the Ruthenian priests be ordained to be a bishop and take charge?
Posted By: theophan

Re: Candidates for the Slovak Catholic Eparchy, Toronto - 07/22/16 02:15 PM

Quote
Could one of the Ruthenian priests be ordained to be a bishop and take charge?


ast82401:

What would be the point? From a purely practical point, five parishes probably are barely able to keep themselves going without trying to support a bishop and an eparchy. Deacon Lance mentions the loss of their patron. If memory serves, there was a thread mentioning the fact that a very wealthy gentleman who supported this eparchy financially has gone on to his reward. If that is true, the mere existence of this eparchy was/is not on a sound footing. In the past, five parishes like these would have been placed under the local Latin ordinary for their canonical support.

Bob
Posted By: theophan

Re: Candidates for the Slovak Catholic Eparchy, Toronto - 07/24/16 04:14 PM

Google "Slovak Cathedral in Toronto" and follow the link "The Cathedral that time forgot" for some insight into this eparchy and the death of its patron. The eparchy's cathedral has been changed to another church and the massive cathedral that was for a short time its seat is still unfinished and in the control of the Roman family. It's a sad affair. The article is dated 2011.
Posted By: UkrCathLDN

Re: Candidates for the Slovak Catholic Eparchy, Toronto - 07/25/16 04:14 AM

A Ruthenian priest might not know the Slovak language. Difficulties may arise when tending to his flock without language.
Posted By: UkrCathLDN

Re: Candidates for the Slovak Catholic Eparchy, Toronto - 07/25/16 04:25 AM

http://www.catholicregister.org/item/9276-slovak-cathedral-loses-its-status
Posted By: Protopappas76

Re: Candidates for the Slovak Catholic Eparchy, Toronto - 08/03/16 01:36 AM

It makes no sense whatsoever to form eparchies based upon the arbitrary boundary lines of European reality that has no place in North America. This eparchy should be properly placed within the Greek Catholic Metropolia of Winnipeg where it belongs.
Posted By: UkrCathLDN

Re: Candidates for the Slovak Catholic Eparchy, Toronto - 08/03/16 12:11 PM

Ukrainian Metropolia?
Posted By: Fr. Deacon Lance

Re: Candidates for the Slovak Catholic Eparchy, Toronto - 08/03/16 07:56 PM

Originally Posted by Protopappas76
It makes no sense whatsoever to form eparchies based upon the arbitrary boundary lines of European reality that has no place in North America. This eparchy should be properly placed within the Greek Catholic Metropolia of Winnipeg where it belongs.

Would you be willing to place the Eparchy of Newton under the Metropolia of Pittsburgh?
Posted By: Protopappas76

Re: Candidates for the Slovak Catholic Eparchy, Toronto - 08/04/16 04:25 AM

No, because:

1. Unlike the Ruthenians and Ukrainians etc, liturgically Melkites do not follow the Slav Greek-Catholic recension of St Sabbas - we follow the Antiochian and Hellenic Greek-tradition of the Great Church.

2. Melkites belong to a patriarchal Church that has never been based upon national boundaries but upon the decrees of the fifth and sixth Great Councils of the Church establishing the apostolic patriarchates.

3. What divides Ukrainian, Slovak, and Carpatho-Rusyn Greek-Catholics are ethnic lines arbitrarily drawn on a map by the Austro-Hungarian Empire and the Russian Empire etc. and a sad history of animosities that have little to do with faith. The sad history of Bishop SOTER [Ortynsky] in itself is the proof of this - World War I European boundary allegiances divided the Slav Greek-Catholic Church even in the United States, something from which it has never recovered.



Posted By: Fr. Deacon Lance

Re: Candidates for the Slovak Catholic Eparchy, Toronto - 08/04/16 04:45 PM

The lines may have been arbitrary but the differences between Ukrainians and Rusyns are real, as real as the differences between Ukrainians and Russians. Rusyns (and their descendants) should be free to be Rusyns. I fear being under Ukrainian bishops would ultimately lead to the loss of that identity. Apparently Rome agrees.
Posted By: Protopappas76

Re: Candidates for the Slovak Catholic Eparchy, Toronto - 08/09/16 07:30 PM

"Differences between Ukrainians and Rusuyns are real..." We are talking about North America. In most of the Carpatho Rusyn parishes in the South and in the West Coast one only sees a smattering of parishioners of Rusyn descent.Instead one sees the American melting pot. I didn't know that the evangelization of North America was to be confined to ethnic bounds. At least on the West Coast the thriving Greek-Catholic parishes I see are not based upon Pyroghi or kibbee.
Posted By: Pavloosh

Re: Candidates for the Slovak Catholic Eparchy, Toronto - 08/11/16 08:59 PM

So, what are you trying to say?
Posted By: theophan

Re: Candidates for the Slovak Catholic Eparchy, Toronto - 08/15/16 08:19 PM

But to get back to reality. Why do five parishes need to be an independent entity with its own bishop? Is it something that can be sustained without the generous support of the gentleman whose vision started the cathedral that is not finished?

Seems the answer was decided by naming the bishop as the ordinary of Van Nuys and making him the administrator of his former see. And as far as being part of the Metropolitan Church in the U.S., isn't that already de facto what is happening?

Bob
Posted By: Collin Nunis

Re: Candidates for the Slovak Catholic Eparchy, Toronto - 08/15/16 10:59 PM

What's the nearest Ruthenian Eparchy to Toronto? Perhaps they can fall under their jurisdiction as a vicariate of the Eparchy.

This could also work with the Ukrainian Eparchy. If this were to happen in Australia, they would, by default, put the Slovaks in the care of the Ukrainian Eparchy; as they do Ruthenians.
Posted By: Protopappas76

Re: Candidates for the Slovak Catholic Eparchy, Toronto - 08/16/16 01:33 PM

'What am I saying?" Simply put, the ethnic jurisdictional patchwork quilt is sapping our limited resources to live and speak Christ in our American and Canadian contexts. The apostolic genius of the Eastern Churches is synodal governance, not quasi monarchical. The natural relationship of our eparchial structure with their synods has been seriously disrupted and affected by the another Church's form of governance and "Ostpolitik" that my be well for them but is alien to our own. Dicastrial "divide and conquer" has created strange jurisdictional anomalies in relationship with our own synods. And, because of the "crazy" way in which our eparchies have developed, we see limited resources (the blood, seat and tears of the laity) often squandered in maintaining two or three small struggling parishes belonging to different eparchies based upon a principal of which side of a mountain that immigrants came from. That's absurd! Plus, in some cases those "sui juris" Churches fail to then to have the benefits as well as the "checks and balances" that a functioning synod provides. We miss the point when we argue that this local Church or that local Church should be "under" or "in the care of" this or that other Church. Once again, our ecclesiology is conciliar and synodal, i.e. local Churches in communion with other Churches as well enunciated by the Church Fathers and the Seven Great Councils. Due to the way immigration happened in North America we have developed according to the patterns of others and this has done violence to our own ecclesiology. If we are to prosper, as God would have us prosper, it's important that these primary issues be resolved. We are wasting valuable resources and energy in needless duplication. To that end:
Based upon the two basic Greek-Catholic liturgical families (Constantinopolitan and Slav) strengthen and, in certain cases reestablish, a strong working relationship with our synods,and then have those synods create eparchial structures in Canada and the United States that are based upon the realities of who we are in 2016 rather a patchwork based upon where someone's great grandparents came from. As for our sister Church of Rome, it should be a supportive voice in seeing this happen. Nothing could be more encouraging in restoring communion with the other Orthodox Churches, with whom we are sadly not in communion, than this.

Posted By: Fr. Deacon Lance

Re: Candidates for the Slovak Catholic Eparchy, Toronto - 08/17/16 08:21 PM

Originally Posted by Protopappas76
"Differences between Ukrainians and Rusuyns are real..." We are talking about North America. In most of the Carpatho Rusyn parishes in the South and in the West Coast one only sees a smattering of parishioners of Rusyn descent.Instead one sees the American melting pot. I didn't know that the evangelization of North America was to be confined to ethnic bounds. At least on the West Coast the thriving Greek-Catholic parishes I see are not based upon Pyroghi or kibbee.


I am not talking primarily about Rusyn ethnic heritage but our liturgical and chant traditions along with the greater assimilation you see in the Pittsburgh Metropolia. Our parishes use English for 90% if not all the Liturgy. Ukrainians still have many places that are 50% or more Ukrainian for liturgy as well as being very into being Ukrainian. And that is their right and God bless them but I have no interest in that nor do I think most non-Ukrainians.
Posted By: UkrCathLDN

Re: Candidates for the Slovak Catholic Eparchy, Toronto - 08/19/16 04:48 PM

The Ukrainian churches in the UK use 99% Ukrainian and we use Julian calendar.
Posted By: Protopappas76

Re: Candidates for the Slovak Catholic Eparchy, Toronto - 08/21/16 02:28 AM

Well, then here is the opportunity for the Carpatho-Russian Greek-Catholics to help their fellow Slav Greek-Catholics to pull themselves out of their "ethnic rut." May I respectfully point out that this may be a service that many of the Ukrainians might appreciate. Besides, they might teach the Carpatho-Rusyns a thing or two about their common heritage.
Here is at least one place that we could all emulate the Latins. The Latins do not base dioceses on ethnic identity or regional origins. There are no Italian-American Roman Catholic dioceses, German-American Catholic dioceses., etc. That would be a travesty and affront to both conciliar decree and patristic tradition. Latin Catholic dioceses are rightly based upon a common tradition and common liturgy within a geographically delineated area.
Posted By: UkrCathLDN

Re: Candidates for the Slovak Catholic Eparchy, Toronto - 08/22/16 04:48 AM

Spoken like a cradle Greek Catholic fluent in Arabic!
Posted By: Fr. Deacon Lance

Re: Candidates for the Slovak Catholic Eparchy, Toronto - 08/22/16 05:45 PM

Originally Posted by Protopappas76
Well, then here is the opportunity for the Carpatho-Russian Greek-Catholics to help their fellow Slav Greek-Catholics to pull themselves out of their "ethnic rut." May I respectfully point out that this may be a service that many of the Ukrainians might appreciate. Besides, they might teach the Carpatho-Rusyns a thing or two about their common heritage.
Here is at least one place that we could all emulate the Latins. The Latins do not base dioceses on ethnic identity or regional origins. There are no Italian-American Roman Catholic dioceses, German-American Catholic dioceses., etc. That would be a travesty and affront to both conciliar decree and patristic tradition. Latin Catholic dioceses are rightly based upon a common tradition and common liturgy within a geographically delineated area.


Not true, there are French-speaking and English-speaking Archdioceses in Winnipeg in addition to the Ukrainian one, not to mention the Anglican Rite odinariates (and other quasi-sees) that overlap the existing Latin diocese.

I doubt the majority of Ukrainians would appreciate that. I myself believe we should emulate what the Orthodox are seeking in North America one unified jurisdiction, independent of hierarchs in the old country. One Archbishop and 4-6 bishops with geographic borders and a couple auxiliary bishops charged with overseeing the Melkite and Ruthenian liturgical traditions.
Posted By: Protopappas76

Re: Candidates for the Slovak Catholic Eparchy, Toronto - 08/23/16 01:03 AM

May I politely correct you. Both the St. Boniface Archdiocese and the Winnipeg Archdiocese are specifically territorial (check out the Annuario Pontificio), St. Boniface is in an historically French speaking but has English speaking parishes subject to it within their own territory - check it out - I know the archbishop. As for the Anglican Ordinariates, they are just that - personal ordinariates, as are the military ordinariates or the few other existing examples i.e. Mission de France, etc. All of which are limited by canons and without the complete jurisdictional rights of a diocese.
Posted By: Protopappas76

Re: Candidates for the Slovak Catholic Eparchy, Toronto - 08/23/16 01:20 AM

Hmmm.

1. I am not a cradle Greek-Catholic

2. Neither am I fluent in Arabic. Maybe fluent in eating in Arabic as my profile in the mirror too strongly attests. My few words of liturgical Arabic or liturgical Greek are purposefully few.

3. Our common language in the United States is English. The national languages in Canada are English and French. Our Churches should be striving to make the Gospel live within our respective nations - it is one of the imperatives of the Gospel itself, to evangelize. When Sts. Cyril and Methodios evangelized they didn't create Greek ethnic enclaves and insist that the Divine Liturgy be served in Greek, they served the Divine Liturgy in the language of the people.



Posted By: ast82401

Re: Candidates for the Slovak Catholic Eparchy, Toronto - 08/23/16 09:56 AM

I'm pretty fluent in Arabic eating too. Especially when it comes to falafels.
Posted By: UkrCathLDN

Re: Candidates for the Slovak Catholic Eparchy, Toronto - 08/24/16 08:53 AM

It always seems that the converts without the language and ancestry are big on English liturgies.
Posted By: ast82401

Re: Candidates for the Slovak Catholic Eparchy, Toronto - 08/24/16 09:21 AM

I suppose thats true. I would love if my church did a ukrianian liturgy once in a while. I'm not ethnically Ukrainian, but I understand and can sing a Ukrainian liturgy. But, the liturgy should be done for the people. So if they prefer Ukrainian or some other language, then that's fine. But if they want English, do English.
Posted By: dochawk

Re: Candidates for the Slovak Catholic Eparchy, Toronto - 08/28/16 03:35 PM

Originally Posted by UkrCathLDN
It always seems that the converts without the language and ancestry are big on English liturgies.


I suspect that the overwhelming majority would never have been converts without hearing the liturgy in a language they understood . . .

Personally, I would have recognized my first eastern liturgy as something beautiful and reverent had it been in another language (such like I did the only Latin Mass I ever attended), but I likely never would have returned (much like the Latin Mass).


It was the full statement of the faith that left me in awe, though, and led me here.
Posted By: Protopappas76

Re: Candidates for the Slovak Catholic Eparchy, Toronto - 08/30/16 12:02 AM

I'm sorry, but it isn't the purpose or mission of the Church to sustain language or culture, it is the mission of the Church to proclaim the Gospel of Jesus Christ "to all the nations." In fact to do otherwise is the heresy of ethnophyletism. Check it out.
Posted By: UkrCathLDN

Re: Candidates for the Slovak Catholic Eparchy, Toronto - 09/01/16 02:12 AM

How do you proclaim the Gospel to Arab Melkites if you can't speak their language?
Posted By: JimG

Re: Candidates for the Slovak Catholic Eparchy, Toronto - 09/01/16 09:28 AM

How do you proclaim the Gospel to the children of Arab Melkites if they don't speak Arabic?
Posted By: ast82401

Re: Candidates for the Slovak Catholic Eparchy, Toronto - 09/01/16 02:50 PM

Use both languages. It's what the priests at the Tridentine Mass do.
Posted By: UkrCathLDN

Re: Candidates for the Slovak Catholic Eparchy, Toronto - 09/01/16 04:53 PM

Protopappas76 stated that he does not know Arabic so how can he use both languages?
Posted By: UkrCathLDN

Re: Candidates for the Slovak Catholic Eparchy, Toronto - 09/01/16 04:56 PM

But I agree ast82401. Both languages are needed to fulfil pastoral responsibilities.
Posted By: JimG

Re: Candidates for the Slovak Catholic Eparchy, Toronto - 09/01/16 07:33 PM

That presumes some superiority associated with the Tridentine Mass. As one who grew up in that regime I completely disagree with that presumption. If you want to argue that you should go somewhere else.
Posted By: ast82401

Re: Candidates for the Slovak Catholic Eparchy, Toronto - 09/01/16 08:00 PM

I'm not saying its better than the Divine Liturgy. I'm saying that it's not hard to proclaim the gospel in more than one language. It used to be and still is in some places where more than one language is spoken.
Posted By: UkrCathLDN

Re: Candidates for the Slovak Catholic Eparchy, Toronto - 09/02/16 02:33 PM

Tridentine Mass talk has no place on this forum.
Posted By: Collin Nunis

Re: Candidates for the Slovak Catholic Eparchy, Toronto - 09/03/16 08:54 PM

Simple - you do both languages. You are in the house of God - is the one extra Gospel reading going to take 10 minutes? I doubt it. In a parish situation, mitigated practice is the norm.

Middle-Easterners are still migrating in droves so this issue of language will be pretty thorny for awhile. However, the Melkites will be the first to say "let's have another Liturgy for them" so as not to alienate the non-Arabic speakers.

This defeats the rule of having one Liturgy on Sunday, but it works for most people and it keeps the people coming. So why not?
Posted By: theophan

Re: Candidates for the Slovak Catholic Eparchy, Toronto - 09/05/16 04:28 PM

Quote
Tridentine Mass talk has no place on this forum.


UkrCathLDN:

Christ is in our midst!!

Forgive me, but the moderators and administrators will decide what has a place on this forum. The posted comment had nothing to do with bringing that topic up. It was simply a reference to something done in a parallel situation. In any event, pastoral practice--IMHO--needs to take into account the needs of those being served. If language is a barrier, then the point has been missed.

Did not St. Paul say that he would rather someone speak so that others could understand rather than go on in a way no one could? Even though it was in a context of speaking in tongues, the point is the same.

In any event, this topic seems to be moving from the topic heading. If you wish to discuss liturgical language usage, please begin another thread on that topic.

Bob
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