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Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches

Posted By: eumir

Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/11/06 02:33 AM

Christ is Risen!

Are there Eastern Catholics involve in the Catholic Charismatic (Renewal) movements? How does Eastern Christian theology adapt to Charismatic praxis, like speaking in toungues and others?

Thank you!
first among sinners
Posted By: ebed melech

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/11/06 02:58 AM

eumir,

I believe that Madonna House and its foundress, Catherine deHeuck Doherty had some connection to the renewal. I believe that Father Bob Wild has written a book on the evolution of Madonna House through the renewal to its current state.

I was also part of a charismatic covenant community growing up that ended up having an Orthodox church form with a number of its members. Certainly, the pneumatalogical emphasis within Eastern theology opens up some interesting connections to the charismatic renewal.

Also, Father George Maloney, of blessed memory, was involved in the charismatic renewal at one point.

Gordo
Posted By: Dr. Eric

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/11/06 03:59 AM

Quote
Originally posted by eumir:
Christ is Risen!

Are there Eastern Catholics involve in the Catholic Charismatic (Renewal) movements? How does Eastern Christian theology adapt to Charismatic praxis, like speaking in toungues and others?

Thank you!
first among sinners
I hope they aren't. I don't want people flailing around on the ground and frothing at the mouth during the Divine Liturgy! mad

The Charismatic Renewal is supposed to be an anointing by the Holy Ghost. Well, those of us who have already been anointed in Baptism and Chrismation have the fullness of the Anointing. There is no other. It was a psychological phenomenon due to the lack of fellowship within mainstream protestantism movement that brought about the "Pentacostal" movement.


http://www.catholicintl.com/epologetics/articles/pastoral/speaking-tongues1.htm
Posted By: Alfonsus

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/11/06 06:56 AM

Is it that simple?
Although the external expression may lead us to think that this is a mere psychological phenomena, I don't think that is the core of the movement.

Several Popes from Paul VI up to John Paul II gave this movement endorsmenet. Benedict XVI is inviting communities and fraternities of renewal for celebration of Pentecost Vigil in Rome.

International Catholic Charismatic Renewal Services (ICCRS), and Fraternities of Charismatic Communities were founded and enjoying pontifical rights.

Sure, excesses and abuses are everywhere. But if we read the definition, vision and mission of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal as lined in ICCRS charter approved by Holy See, surely it is more than just psychological phenomenon due to lack of fellowship.
Posted By: ebed melech

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/11/06 11:46 AM

Quote
Originally posted by Dr. Eric:
The Charismatic Renewal is supposed to be an anointing by the Holy Ghost. Well, those of us who have already been anointed in Baptism and Chrismation have the fullness of the Anointing. There is no other. It was a psychological phenomenon due to the lack of fellowship within mainstream protestantism movement that brought about the "Pentacostal" movement.
Actually, I don't remember any reference to the renewal being an "anointing". There was certainly talk of an "outpouring of the Holy Spirit", but that could also be a reference to "anointing".

If you read some of the Catholic literature on the renewal, there is a clear connection made to the sacraments of initiation, particularly Chrismation/Confirmation. A great scholarly work on the subject is here.

Certainly parallels between certain elements of charismatic experience (not all) can be found in St. Simeon the New Theologian and St. Macarius. There is also that marvellous reference to the desert abba who was approached for help re: a disciple's struggle with keeping his rule of prayer. The abba stood and raised his hands in the air, with his ten fingers being set aflame saying "You must become fire!"

TO me the renewal always saw itself as the Holy Spirit "blowing" on the embers of Christian life given in the mysteries of initiation to set them aflame in conversion and an active apostolate. The difficulty is to separate the cultural phenomenon associated with the renewal with what was going on at a spiritual level. One of the problematics of the renewal was its almost unquestioning acceptance of Protestant ecclesiological and theological explanations for what was being experienced. Places such as Franciscan University of Steubenville and Madonna House are marvellous examples of the maturation of the movement into a form of "dynamic Catholic orthodoxy". THis came about through a rediscovery of the Catholic principles and the ways to properly reconcile charismatic experience with them.

My sense is that the movement was of God but was intended to be a "movement" not a perpetual phenomenon. One of the issues is the development of "charismatic communities" which were separate from parish life. It created a challenge of "double loyalty" which even evolved into an "us vs. them" mindset. This was clearly outside of the purpose of the renewal which should have been to help make those who experienced an authentic awakening of the Holy Spirit like leaven in a parish. But the focus of the renewal on the phenomenon associated with the charisms (and their protestantized expressions) made other parishioners (and clergy!) understandably wary! As the movement matured (and its members matured in their understanding of it) I think it has found its place within the church.

Just a few thoughts...

Gordo
Posted By: Memo Rodriguez

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/11/06 03:47 PM

Hi,

Every time the subject of the charismatic movement arises in thes Forum I see negative opinions, most of which are inaccurate one way or another.

I usually remind people that the Charismatic Catholic Renewal is one of the several charismatic movements in the Church. The Renewal movement is, in my opinion, the most faithful to Church tradition and praxis.

Charismatic phenomena such as speaking in tongues, or having visions or healings do happen, but 1) They are not "enforced" in any way 2) They are always subject to discernment and 3) They are not what the Renewal is all about.

The Charismatic Renewal is all about a personal experience with the Risen Lord Jesus through prayer. This experience results in a new openness to the action of the Holy Spirt aimed not at "collecting" His gifts, but rather at bearing His fruits. The gifts are only one of the many "tools" or means He uses.

The Renewal movement is strictly loyal to Church authorities, we work from within the parish structure, together with other pastoral efforts and in permanent communication and filial obedience to the Pastor.

At the Diocesan level, the movement usually has permanent liaisons with the Bishop and it is not unusual the Bishop designates a priest to prodive guidance to the governing body of the movement.

Moreover, the Renewal movement has in great esteem the sacramental life of the Church and in no way it intends its prayer services to be a replacement for the Liturgy or a prayer for healing to be a replacement of the sacrament of the annointing of the sick or for the experience of the "Baptism in the Holy Spirit" to be a replacement of the sacraments of Baptism and/or Confirmation(Chrismation) or the movement leadership to be a replacement for the ordained authority of the Church.

Of course, things not always go according to plan, but this is what we intend and in cases of deviation from the plan, the movement has strict rules of self-correction.

Our main problem is that people outside the movement tend to group all charismatics together and that hurts our reputation, because we would be the first ones to say that some of the allegedly Catholic charismatic groups "out there" are WAAAAAY out there, on the fringe of the Church and sadly, sometimes, beyond.

Popes Benedict and John Paul the Great before him, have had the Renewal movement in great esteem.

As a charismatic Latin Catholic, I feel right at home with Eastern spirituality and liturgy. You do not have to be loud and weird to be charismatic, the only thing you need to be is open to the action of the Holy Spirt and humble enough to recognize that all is Grace (gift, charisma).

Shalom,
Memo
Posted By: DavidB, the Byzantine Catholic

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/11/06 09:12 PM

Quote
Originally posted by Memo Rodriguez:
Hi,

Every time the subject of the charismatic movement arises in thes Forum I see negative opinions, most of which are inaccurate one way or another.

I usually remind people that the Charismatic Catholic Renewal is one of the several charismatic movements in the Church. The Renewal movement is, in my opinion, the most faithful to Church tradition and praxis.

Charismatic phenomena such as speaking in tongues, or having visions or healings do happen, but 1) They are not "enforced" in any way 2) They are always subject to discernment and 3) They are not what the Renewal is all about.

The Charismatic Renewal is all about a personal experience with the Risen Lord Jesus through prayer. This experience results in a new openness to the action of the Holy Spirt aimed not at "collecting" His gifts, but rather at bearing His fruits. The gifts are only one of the many "tools" or means He uses.
Memo,
While this is all true from my experience it ends up turning into a clique filled group. That is if you do not experience the same personal experience as everyone else then you seem to be treated as some sort of outcast.

From my understanding the only way to show that you have recieved the "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" is though praying in tongues. If you don't then you haven't.

Also this focus on the "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" does create two classes of Christians, those who have had this "Baptism" and those who don't.

They also seem to value some gifts over others, like praying in tongues, which I have yet to see be fully defended scripturally.

I tend to agree with Dr. Eric on this one.


David, Byzantine Catholic and Carmelite pre-novice
Posted By: Dr. Eric

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/11/06 10:05 PM

As regards to the "praying/speaking in tongues," it seems to me that the Biblical basis for it is not what is seen in Pentecostal circles. When the Holy Ghost came down on the Apostles they spoke their native languages and everyone else heard them in his or her own native language yet the Apostles only spoke Aramaic/Koine.

Most agree that the true gift of tongues was given to Sts. Pio of Pietrelcina and Vincent Ferrer in the Latin Church (I don't know of any Eastern Saints that have had it, if there were please let me know.) They spoke in Italian and Spanish respectively, yet could be understood by all who heard them talk.
Posted By: Alfonsus

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/11/06 10:20 PM

I agree that people in the renewal circle tend to act like what David said. But then, that is the people, not the essece of the movement itself.

Surely we can't equate the movement with its abuses and excesses.

If there are abuses and excesses, then we need to correct that. How? To understand and guide the Charismatic Movement as it is understood by the Church. We have ICCRS, than we can try first by guiding the movement trough the ICCRS vision and mission.

To separate outer expression from the core is very important in my opinion.
In talking about Charismatic Movement, people tend to equate the outside with the the Movement itself, and then try to kick it out all together without even trying to consider what the vision and mission the Church really have about the Charismatic movement.

Because the bad examples are abundant, they think "aha, that must be the movement identity and true face." Sadly, people in the Charismatic circle themself sometimes do not understand what Charismatic Renewal is. They too tend to equate the 'outer expression' with the Renewal itself.

The fact is, this movement and phenomena does have a place in the church (at least the Catholic Church discern it that way). If then we see things need to be corrected, instead saying "the Charismatic movement is blatant heresy," I think it is more profitable to show them the church direction about the Charismatic movement, to educate them about this movement, as directed for instance by ICCRS.
Posted By: ebed melech

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/11/06 10:58 PM

The focus on "speaking in tongues" as a manifestation of the "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" is, in my mind, and example of a Protestantization within the movement. There are many charisms given to the ecclesia that are meant for the upbuilding of the Body. Whether or not there exists a specific gift of "angelic prayer" that causes one to speak in tongues that are not discernable to the human ear or understanding is debatable.

But to me, that is not the meaning of the Charismatic Renewal. In its most Catholic form, the renewal is a focus on three things:

1. Personal conversion to Jesus Christ

2. A focus on the "gifts" or charisms of the Holy Spirit that are given in the sacramental mysteries of the Church for the upbuilding of the church.

3. Apostolate (mission, diakonia, works of mercy, etc etc).

The power of the renewal is its connection to Vatican II and the renewed focus on the apostolic and "charismatic" vocation of the laity.

As far as I'm concerned, the cultural phenomenon of the "charismatic movement" which can be overidentified with Casio keyboards, contemporary music, being "slain in the Spirit" and, of course "speaking in tongues", is transitory. Its essence as a movement is in its ability to animate the charisms of the laity and the New Evangelization. The Catholic CHurch has rightfully embraced this movement as an authentic renewal movement, but it has had to undergo fundamental shifts in its orientation under the shepherding of the church's pastors.

In my opinion, we need such a renewal in our Byzantine churches - SO LONG AS the goal is to rediscover the three things I listed above in our Byzantine context. We should pray for a charismatic and kerygmatic renewal in our church that is not limited to the laity - but also includes the clergy. The bishop as episkopos and successor to the apostles stands in the tradition of the Upper Room of Pentecost and is thus granted to grace/charism to renew that Pentecostal event within his ecclesia.

I plan to make the "un-Byzantine practice" wink of nine days of prayer and fasting, using the Akathist to the Theotokos after Ascension Thursday in prayerful petition that the Holy Spirit pour out His charisms again on our church and renew and transfigure it. The only thing that will save our church is the work of God's divine energies and our cooperation with them.

Here is the website if anyone is willing to join in.

Canon of the Akathist to the Theotokos

Yours in Christ and the Mother of God,

gordo
Posted By: Pavel Ivanovich

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/11/06 11:11 PM

The speaking in tongues was used to identify the 'in crew' in some parishes where the charismatics set up prayer groups. In Perth Western Australia one of the largest groups in a Discalced Carmelite Parish decided to migrate to the eastern coast of the continent as God had told them to do so. The venerable Archbishop of Perth, Sir Lancelot hit the roof and ordered all charismatic groups to have a priest attached to ensure sound Catholic teaching. The Dis. Carmelites got the Arch's knighted boot up the bottom for not being on the ball while all this was happening. I have found that the Charismatic movement has at times led some straight out of the church, as those particular people were reading material was all protestant. I think among the Orthodox in Australia the Antiochians alone can cope with Charismatics the other juristictions are not keen on it at all.

ICXC
NIKA
Posted By: Chtec

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/11/06 11:49 PM

It's not Eastern Catholic, but some of you might be interested in this page:

http://www.stsymeon.org

Dave
Posted By: Memo Rodriguez

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/12/06 12:43 AM

Hi David,

Quote
While this is all true from my experience it ends up turning into a clique filled group. That is if you do not experience the same personal experience as everyone else then you seem to be treated as some sort of outcast.
I am not sure which group you are talking about, but it certainly sounds much more "hard line" than what the Renewal is trying to do institutionally.

Of course, it is entirely possible that there are still groups nominally affiliated with the Renewal that will follow this hard line, but it is against our wishes as a movement.

In my group, usage of extraordinary gifts is scarce, one would say, rare. Nobody is treated as an outcast and the same respect and hospitality shown to a long time leader is shown to those who attend for the first time and, perhaps even more significantly, those who attend for the second time.

Quote
From my understanding the only way to show that you have recieved the "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" is though praying in tongues. If you don't then you haven't.
Well, the Baptism of the Holy Spirit is not a sacrament, so there is no way to show you have received it (with sacraments, you can show your certificate and that is proof enough). Likewise, there is no way to show you have not received it.

Praying in tongues is a sign of nothing until it can be established beyond doubt that your tongues actually come from the Holy Spirit.

Again, that is very hard to do. In my experience, the "gift of tongues" some times comes from within the person either intentionally (as in "faking" it) or unintentionally.

Quote
Also this focus on the "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" does create two classes of Christians, those who have had this "Baptism" and those who don't.
Again, this is an old praxis and the Renewal now realizes it was a mistake (or rather, a product of an exagerated focus on some external sings commonly associated with the Baptism in the Holy Spirit experience). These days, this divisive environment can still be found in some Covenant groups, but less and less in Renewal groups.

Quote
They also seem to value some gifts over others, like praying in tongues, which I have yet to see be fully defended scripturally.
Same comment.

Perhaps you need to visit an authentic Renewal group nowadays. We have matured a lot since the olden days.

Shalom,
Memo
Posted By: DavidB, the Byzantine Catholic

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/12/06 01:42 AM

Memo,
Thanks for the reply. I will take time to go over your comments but I have to say that even though the leadership of the "Renewal" might say and believe these things it does not always carry over that those in the movement practice what the leadership says or wants.

I am puzzled by one comment you made though.

Quote
Originally posted by Memo Rodriguez:
Praying in tongues is a sign of nothing until it can be established beyond doubt that your tongues actually come from the Holy Spirit.
How can one ever hope to do this? Every Charismatic I have ever met and every thing I have ever read states that praying in tongues is proof of the "Baptism in the Holy Spirit".

By the way, I put this in quotes becuase I believe that the Sacrament of Baptism is the true and only Baptism of the Holy Spirit. There is no pseudo-baptism that many Charismatics speak of because if there is then there are two classes of Christians, those who have it and those who don't.

Quote
Perhaps you need to visit an authentic Renewal group nowadays. We have matured a lot since the olden days.
I won't be doing so any time soon as I am of the school of thought that the gifts that the Charismatics are so keen on were only granted for a limited time in the Church and that time has long since past.

I know that this idea is not popular among those who suppor the movement but it is a valid school of thought and one that a Catholic can hold to.


David, Byzantine Catholic and Carmelite pre-novice
Posted By: ebed melech

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/12/06 10:53 AM

Quote
Originally posted by DavidB, the Byzantine Catholic:
I won't be doing so any time soon as I am of the school of thought that the gifts that the Charismatics are so keen on were only granted for a limited time in the Church and that time has long since past.

I know that this idea is not popular among those who suppor the movement but it is a valid school of thought and one that a Catholic can hold to.


David, Byzantine Catholic and Carmelite pre-novice
David,

You've peaked my curiosity - which gifts would that be?

Gordo
Posted By: DavidB, the Byzantine Catholic

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/12/06 12:32 PM

Quote
Originally posted by ebed melech:
Quote
Originally posted by DavidB, the Byzantine Catholic:
[b] I won't be doing so any time soon as I am of the school of thought that the gifts that the Charismatics are so keen on were only granted for a limited time in the Church and that time has long since past.

I know that this idea is not popular among those who suppor the movement but it is a valid school of thought and one that a Catholic can hold to.


David, Byzantine Catholic and Carmelite pre-novice
David,

You've peaked my curiosity - which gifts would that be?

Gordo [/b]
Those gifts that the early Church needed as there was no Canon of Scripture as of yet.

The Gift of Speaking in Tongues (the one mentioned in the Bible, what occured at Pentacost). Now this one might happen in very limited circumstances but I doubt highly that it happens very much, if at all, in the developed world.

The Gift of Prophecy and the Gift of Interpretation as I have seen practiced in Charismatic groups.

Those Gifts that the Charismatic groups think most highly of.
Posted By: Carole

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/12/06 01:19 PM

Quote
Originally posted by Alfonsus:
Several Popes from Paul VI up to John Paul II gave this movement endorsmenet.
I'm not sure that is exactly a ringing endorsement. I mean you're talking about 3 Roman Pontiffs ... okay 4 if you include Pope Benedict XVI out of 266 Roman Pontiffs and a span of just 40 years out of a 2,000 year history.

And in the overall history of the Roman Catholic Church those 40 years aren't exactly banner years to be used as an example for how the Church should continue.

Quote
Originally posted by Alfonsus:
Sure, excesses and abuses are everywhere. But if we read the definition, vision and mission of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal as lined in ICCRS charter approved by Holy See, surely it is more than just psychological phenomenon due to lack of fellowship.
You're right. It is likely more than just a psycholoical phenomenon. It is also the active and intentional protestantization of the Roman Catholic Church. Not something that I think is a great idea.

If we are to judge a tree by its fruit then you should look at what the Charismatic Renewal movement over the last 30 years or so has brought to the Church. If the bad outweighs the good (which I strongly believe it does) then it is not a good thing in and of itself, even if some good things have come from it.
Posted By: Dave Wells

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/12/06 01:46 PM

Carol, in your post you stated: "If the bad outweighs the good (which I strongly believe it does) then it is not a good thing in and of itself, even if some good things have come from it."

I am not personally involved in the Charismatic Renewal, yet I am familiar with it. My mother was very involved (she wasn't Catholic), and she often took me to prayer meetings as a child. This in turn led to my interest in Catholicism, and my conversion to the Catholic Church.

Our Lord said that we should judge the tree by its fruit. Overall, those involved in the Renewal are evangelized and committed to Christ. They have a fire and zeal that is often lacking in our parishes.

Father Raniero Cantalamessa is the Papal Preacher, and is very involved in the Renewal movement. I'd encourage you, and others to read anything by him and see a positive example of the Renewal.

Pax!
Posted By: JonnNightwatcher

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/12/06 01:53 PM

the Charismatic movement in Roman Catholicism was the bomb in the seventies. I attended a couple of their meetings in Chattanooga with my now sainted Godmother who was active in the movement. I guess she found the warm hearted intensely personal faith manifested by Charismatics that seemed to be lacking in the regular parish. I guess there were times she missed such a faith that she remembered from her youth at First Presbyterian (PCA) in Chattanooga.
yes there were excesses in the movement at large. there was even one prayer group in upstate New York that wound up leaving Holy Mother Church as they read the Bible in a literal way, and out of the contexts of Church History and Tradition.
there is a group in Chattanooga that calls itself the Catholic Charismatic Church, obviously a part of a larger movement. I guess what I mentioned about the prayer group in New York is but a source of inspiration to that movement.
while I admired the Charismatic movement for filling the void in a sometimes cold, remote and overly intellectual and political atmosphere of the average Roman Catholic parish, the emotional exuberance in the Charismatic movement aliented me.
somehow, there needs to be a balance between the two extremes.
Much Love,
Jonn
Posted By: DavidB, the Byzantine Catholic

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/12/06 02:15 PM

Quote
Originally posted by JonnNightwatcher:
the Charismatic movement in Roman Catholicism was the bomb in the seventies. I attended a couple of their meetings in Chattanooga with my now sainted Godmother who was active in the movement. I guess she found the warm hearted intensely personal faith manifested by Charismatics that seemed to be lacking in the regular parish. I guess there were times she missed such a faith that she remembered from her youth at First Presbyterian (PCA) in Chattanooga.
yes there were excesses in the movement at large. there was even one prayer group in upstate New York that wound up leaving Holy Mother Church as they read the Bible in a literal way, and out of the contexts of Church History and Tradition.
there is a group in Chattanooga that calls itself the Catholic Charismatic Church, obviously a part of a larger movement. I guess what I mentioned about the prayer group in New York is but a source of inspiration to that movement.
while I admired the Charismatic movement for filling the void in a sometimes cold, remote and overly intellectual and political atmosphere of the average Roman Catholic parish, the emotional exuberance in the Charismatic movement aliented me.
somehow, there needs to be a balance between the two extremes.
Much Love,
Jonn
John,
I agree with you on this.

I have an issue with this as it seems that they are creating yet another group within the Church. It seems as if the Church is spliting internally. Every parish in the Latin Church and many in the various Byzantine Churches already have multiple Sunday Liturgies. This splits a parish community. Instead of having St <name here> parish, you have the 7:45 St <name here> parish community, the 9:45 St <name here> parish community, and the 11:45 St <name here> parish community.

A friend of mine attended a parish for years and did not even know a friend of his was also a member until he went to the Mass at a different time than usual.

Now we are adding all these prayer groups and third orders, which are a good thing, but when they start to have their own Masses they cause further division within the community.
Posted By: Memo Rodriguez

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/12/06 03:30 PM

Hi,

Quote
I have to say that even though the leadership of the "Renewal" might say and believe these things it does not always carry over that those in the movement practice what the leadership says or wants.
True. And not only that, I need to repeat myself: Not all charismatic groups in the Catholic Church are affiliated with the Renewal movement. Of course, what the Renewal movement leadership thinks affects these other groups even less.

Quote
How can one ever hope to do this? Every Charismatic I have ever met and every thing I have ever read states that praying in tongues is proof of the "Baptism in the Holy Spirit".
Well, then you have met poorly formed people.

There is no sure external sign of you have had this experience.

If you have the conviction that Jesus Christ is the Lord, that He died for your sins and that He rose from the dead and Lives forever. Conviction to the point of being a witness of these things, then I'd say at some point you had experience of "Baptism in the Holy Spirit".

Tongues or no tongues.

I, for one, do not pray in tongues.

Quote
By the way, I put this in quotes becuase I believe that the Sacrament of Baptism is the true and only Baptism of the Holy Spirit. There is no pseudo-baptism that many Charismatics speak of because if there is then there are two classes of Christians, those who have it and those who don't.
Oh, and I totally agree with you. The label we've attached to this experience is rather unfortunate, if you ask me. It is not a second sacrament of Baptism. It is not a sacrament at all.

Perhaps the name connection comes from the idea that this experience should come together with our Christian Initiation, however, because most of us were infants when that happened, our rational minds some times are not open to accept the Grace we received at that time.

Through this experience of "Baptism in the Holy Spirit" what happens is that we open ourselves to our Baptismal Grace and therefore the name connection.

Quote
I know that this idea is not popular among those who suppor the movement but it is a valid school of thought and one that a Catholic can hold to.
Of course. And I respect that.

Just like not all the Church is expected to be Latin or Byzantine or Syriac and just like not all the Church is expected to be Franciscan or Dominican or Basilian, the "New Movements" in the Church are not intended to appeal to all Catholics.

For the very reasons you will probably not visit a charismatic prayer group in the near future, I will not take a Cursillo or a Marriage Encounter or participate in a Pro-Life demonstration.

Do I think there's anything wrong with those folks? Of course not! It is just that those are not my cup of tea.

However, I can work side by side with members of any of those or any other Catholic group in good standing.

That is the beauty of the Catholic Church, we do not have to be identical to be in communion with each other.

Shalom,
Memo
Posted By: ebed melech

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/13/06 05:00 AM

Quote
Originally posted by DavidB, the Byzantine Catholic:
Those gifts that the early Church needed as there was no Canon of Scripture as of yet.

The Gift of Speaking in Tongues (the one mentioned in the Bible, what occured at Pentacost). Now this one might happen in very limited circumstances but I doubt highly that it happens very much, if at all, in the developed world.

The Gift of Prophecy and the Gift of Interpretation as I have seen practiced in Charismatic groups.

Those Gifts that the Charismatic groups think most highly of.
Interesting points. I would only say that many of these gifts were demonstrated by saints within the Eastern and Western traditions. As extraordinary charisms of the Holy Spirit, they are not necessarily signs of personal holiness (remember the prophecy of Balaam's Ass?...not to be confused with Tim Lahaye's prophetic/pathetic "My Left Behind" series. biggrin ).

But I digress...

Prophecy is one of those interesting charisms. I don't think in its biblical sense it is intended exclusively as a prediction of the future. Rather, it is the ability to interpret the "signs of the times" according to the divine economia. (Sometimes that involves predicting the future, but not always.)

I'm still not sure about the theological ground for "speaking in tongues" in the way that it is practiced in most Charismatic prayer groups. (Although, interestingly enough, there is a "feel" much like the Greek chanted "issan" (sp?) with layers of harmony when it is practiced. Like you, I favor a reading of the gift of tongues as in languages that are foreign to the speaker. There are examples of this in many missionary accounts, even in modern times.

But the renewal is certainly more than that phenomenon. It has more to do with animating the laity.

BTW, I think you forgot healing and spiritual warfare, which are very much part of the movemet.

God bless,

Gordo
Posted By: Carole

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/13/06 12:58 PM

Quote
Originally posted by Sea Knight:
I am not personally involved in the Charismatic Renewal, yet I am familiar with it. My mother was very involved (she wasn't Catholic), and she often took me to prayer meetings as a child. This in turn led to my interest in Catholicism, and my conversion to the Catholic Church.

Our Lord said that we should judge the tree by its fruit. Overall, those involved in the Renewal are evangelized and committed to Christ. They have a fire and zeal that is often lacking in our parishes.

Father Raniero Cantalamessa is the Papal Preacher, and is very involved in the Renewal movement. I'd encourage you, and others to read anything by him and see a positive example of the Renewal.

Pax!
While I have no doubt that there are zealous and orthodox Catholics involved in this movement the majority of my personal experience has been with zealous, poorly catechized individuals who while they have zeal have no understanding of a true and orthodox practice of the faith.

I fail to see how it benefits anyone to be zealous if their zeal is misguided.
Posted By: ebed melech

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/13/06 04:11 PM

Quote
Originally posted by Carole:
I fail to see how it benefits anyone to be zealous if their zeal is misguided.
So what is your point?

Gordo
Posted By: byzanTN

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/13/06 04:22 PM

It seems to me that Carole is touching on something I have been thinking for awhile. Our culture and society once valued reason and logic - "I think, therefore I am." Granted, reason and logic can be carried to such extremes they become cold, impersonal, and detached in situations where those are not helpful qualities to have. A better motto for our times might be, I feel, therefore I am. We truly live in the land of the overwrought, hysterical, and touchy-feely where many are "experience" seekers. Carole is correct that hysteria appeals to people who don't understand the inherent reasonableness of their faith and the divine logic that is at its core. I find the pearl of great price in the writings of the early Church fathers, not in the sentimentality and emotion of the moment. Perhaps I am not saying this well, but it seems to me that charismatic worship fits our overwrought and touchy-feely culture - it's based on "me" and what I feel and experience.
Posted By: Dr. Eric

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/13/06 04:41 PM

Well said ByzanTN. I agree, most of what passes for Christian conviction these days is self delusion and sheer emotionalism. Just like Mormons say they can know the validity of the Book of Mormon by the "burning in the bosom" when they read the book. I get the same feeling when I watch "Braveheart!" :p

Freeeeeeedommmmmmmm! biggrin
Posted By: ebed melech

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/13/06 04:53 PM

Quote
Originally posted by byzanTN:
Perhaps I am not saying this well, but it seems to me that charismatic worship fits our overwrought and touchy-feely culture - it's based on "me" and what I feel and experience.
It seems to me that that is painting with a pretty broad brush. Sure enough, the movement is like a garden - it has its fruits and nuts! But to say that charismatic worship (however you may define it) is all about me, may be going a bit too far. In fact, I know some traditionalists for whom that is the case. I don't think that they come to worship God, but rather come for the "experience" of traditional worship. I don't think one can drive too hard a wedge between the two, but it does exist.

I go back to what I said before - you have to see the movement as it has developed and matured over time. It is fundamentally about actualizing the charisms of the lay apostolate, and as it has grown, the movement has recognized manifestations of the charisms in far less dramatic (but no less powerful) forms...particularly in the context of liturgy and traditional forms of worship.

As to faith's relationship with reason, is there not a dimension of faith that is supra-rational? Read about some of the ecstatic experiences of the saints (canonized or not). Now, are these types of experiences to be sought? The fathers say no, especially since they open us up to demonic influence and pride. But when they happen, andthey are authentic, it can be quite powerful.

As someone who grew up in the renewal and knows its good side and bad side first hand, my advice is to defer to the discernment of the church on this matter. And the church has given its approval to the movement (not necessarily to every single aspect of its expression).

Probably the best book on the subject right now is Archbishop Paul J. Cordes's "Call to Holiness".

Call to Holiness: reflections on the Catholic Charismatic Renewal

Gordo
Posted By: DavidB, the Byzantine Catholic

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/13/06 05:19 PM

Quote
Originally posted by ebed melech:
Interesting points. I would only say that many of these gifts were demonstrated by saints within the Eastern and Western traditions. As extraordinary charisms of the Holy Spirit, they are not necessarily signs of personal holiness (remember the prophecy of Balaam's Ass?...not to be confused with Tim Lahaye's prophetic/pathetic "My Left Behind" series. biggrin ).

But I digress...

Prophecy is one of those interesting charisms. I don't think in its biblical sense it is intended exclusively as a prediction of the future. Rather, it is the ability to interpret the "signs of the times" according to the divine economia. (Sometimes that involves predicting the future, but not always.)
Yes and by definintion saints are few and far between.

I do not stand for a total stopping of the Gifts but I do not believe that they are as prevalent today as they were in the very early Church.

There are not saints at every Charismatic meeting yet it seems like very gift is present and they seem to be present in abundance.

Quote

I'm still not sure about the theological ground for "speaking in tongues" in the way that it is practiced in most Charismatic prayer groups. (Although, interestingly enough, there is a "feel" much like the Greek chanted "issan" (sp?) with layers of harmony when it is practiced. Like you, I favor a reading of the gift of tongues as in languages that are foreign to the speaker. There are examples of this in many missionary accounts, even in modern times.
Again, these are not being done at Charismatic meetings.

Quote

But the renewal is certainly more than that phenomenon. It has more to do with animating the laity.

BTW, I think you forgot healing and spiritual warfare, which are very much part of the movemet.
IMHO the movement is more about emotion and how one feels.

I did not forget healing. I put healing in the same class as the other Gifts, healings do not occur on demand nor in abundance.

As for Spiritual Warfare, I do not count that as a gift.

I think some Charismatics put too much of an emphasis on Spiritual Warfare. That is a delicate subject and one must know some psychology to handle it effectively in others.
Posted By: DavidB, the Byzantine Catholic

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/13/06 05:29 PM

Quote
Originally posted by ebed melech:
Quote
Originally posted by byzanTN:
[b] Perhaps I am not saying this well, but it seems to me that charismatic worship fits our overwrought and touchy-feely culture - it's based on "me" and what I feel and experience.
It seems to me that that is painting with a pretty broad brush. Sure enough, the movement is like a garden - it has its fruits and nuts! [/b]
But doesn't the Lord say.

Matthew 7:15-23
15"Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are (M)ravenous wolves.
16"You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?
17"So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
18"A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
19"Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20"So then, you will know them by their fruits.
21"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
23"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

So if a tree is bearing both good fruit and bad nuts then there is something wrong with the tree.

And then there is this from 2 Timothy 4.

1I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

2Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.

3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

4And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

5But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

I believe that many in the Charismatic movement done so.
Posted By: ebed melech

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/13/06 06:30 PM

Quote
Originally posted by DavidB, the Byzantine Catholic:
I believe that many in the Charismatic movement done so.
Perhaps...perhaps not. Again, I'm not sure what exposure you have had to the "charismatic movement". My sense is - not much. Perhaps you are satisfied dealing with clichťs and caricatures, as opposed to real people. The movement has had its problems and growing pains, no doubt. I experienced some of those first hand, while growing up and in the university. And ecclesiaistical approbation for a movement is not neccessarily the same as a blanket endorsement, as we have seen with the Neocatechumenate.

But by and large, the movement itself has been approved and blessed by the church. I would suggest reading Cordes's work before taking too hard a line on the movement or its membership.

Gordo
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/13/06 06:39 PM

Dear Friends,

I was involved with the Catholic Charistmatic movement to do a sociology of religion paper.

The experience was very moving and helped me embrace Eastern Christianity in the fullest possible measure.

The emphasis on the Holy Spirit is what connected me to Byzantine Christianity sans Latinizations.

For me, the charismatic movement is part and parcel of the Eastern Orthodox-Catholic Christian experience, and without some of what I saw were the more negative issues of the charismatic prayer experience - lack of outward composure and respect via "praise the Lord" etc., the danger of "inner light piety," mediumistic-like experiences with respect to "speaking in tongues" and being, in some groups, compelled to do so as a condition for acceptance and the like.

Reading Motovilov's conversation with St Seraphim of Sarov showed me the power of the Spirit in the most authentic and traditional way possible.

Alex
Posted By: ebed melech

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/13/06 06:43 PM

Quote
Originally posted by DavidB, the Byzantine Catholic:
Yes and by definintion saints are few and far between.

I do not stand for a total stopping of the Gifts but I do not believe that they are as prevalent today as they were in the very early Church.

There are not saints at every Charismatic meeting yet it seems like very gift is present and they seem to be present in abundance.
St. Paul and I would disagree with you on much of this.

1. Every baptized and chrismated Christian is regarded as a "saint".

2. According to St. Paul's epistles, the gifts are alive and well and are meant to be used for the building up of the ecclesia.

3. The charisms, as I said, are not signs of personal holiness, but are rather are signs of God's grace - even at times an extraordinary grace that can come to any of the "saints". One of the ways in which the movement struggled early on is in forgetting that the charisms were extraordinary gifts...some even believing that every one could be utilized "on demand". this was not always the case, but it did occur. A more mature posture is for individuals to discern how the "Spirit is moving" and let the charsims/graces/energies be poured forth at God's will. With that said, the charisms intrinsic to the orders of apostolic ministry are of a different nature altogether.

Gordo
Posted By: Edward Yong

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/13/06 07:01 PM

XB!

Does no one else here consider the movement to be demon-inspired, and nothing more than prelest?
Posted By: ebed melech

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/13/06 07:17 PM

ummm...I'd be careful about throwing out that label of "demon inspired" to a recognized ecclesial movement. You only demonstrate your complete ignorance in this matter.

And I say this an "ex" member (as far as that is possible) of the "movement".

I think the movement and its membership are certainly open to criticism from within and without. So if you have a criticism to offer, by all means. But labelling the movement as completely subject to the powers of Satan I think calls into question your own discernment.

Gordo
Posted By: Dr. Eric

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/13/06 07:36 PM

See, what Dr. Alex talks about with the experiences with St. Seraphim of Sarov, my examples of Sts. Pio of Pietrelcina and Vincent Ferrer and even the Holy Fools are true examples of the Charisms of the Holy Ghost. Pentecostals drinking strychnine and dancing with snakes (I'm not painting with a broad brush, only giving examples of what I've seen) and people rolling around on the ground blithering away do not strike me as people who have been given a Gift by the Holy Ghost.
Posted By: ebed melech

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/13/06 07:47 PM

ummm...Pentecostals are not synonymous with Catholic Charismatics. Two different movements altogether.

And in my family background on my mother's Carolina side, we had a snake handling Pentecostal. Pentecostal theology and practice could not be further removed from Catholic charismatic theology and practice.
Posted By: Pavel Ivanovich

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/13/06 11:29 PM

Like all movements in the church it needs to be managed. Where it has not been managed it has gone all over the place, as other organisations have found. The example I posted of what happened here in Western Australia was an example of no management and the failure to see the 4 square Gospel influence coming in. Unfortunatley a few Catholics I have known have migrated into the Penticostal Churches via the Charismatic movement. Management here came in after the great migration to Queensland but too late.

ICXC
NIKA
Posted By: DavidB, the Byzantine Catholic

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/14/06 01:06 AM

Quote
Originally posted by ebed melech:
Quote
Originally posted by DavidB, the Byzantine Catholic:
[b] I believe that many in the Charismatic movement done so.
Perhaps...perhaps not. Again, I'm not sure what exposure you have had to the "charismatic movement". My sense is - not much. Perhaps you are satisfied dealing with clichťs and caricatures, as opposed to real people.[/b]
Excuse me? I have no problems dealing with real people. If I did I would not be in formation with the Carmelites.

I stated that they tend to form cliques and that is not to my likeing. It was that that chased me away. That and the over emphasis on emotional out bursts.

Quote

The movement has had its problems and growing pains, no doubt. I experienced some of those first hand, while growing up and in the university. And ecclesiaistical approbation for a movement is not neccessarily the same as a blanket endorsement, as we have seen with the Neocatechumenate.

But by and large, the movement itself has been approved and blessed by the church. I would suggest reading Cordes's work before taking too hard a line on the movement or its membership.
Approved? But so has the Neocatechumenate.

It being approved does not really matter as it has nothing to do with the Deposit of Faith so no one is bound to believe in it.
Posted By: ebed melech

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/14/06 01:42 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by DavidB, the Byzantine Catholic:
[QB]Excuse me? I have no problems dealing with real people. If I did I would not be in formation with the Carmelites.[QUOTE][qb]

David,

I'm sorry you misunderstood me. I did not mean that you had problems dealing with real people. I'm sure that you are a very personable fellow and have all sorts of friends.

I meant that you are painting a cartoonish picture of people in the charismatic renewal, rather than talking about real people...or at least that is what it sounded like to me.

Gordo
Posted By: Edward Yong

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/14/06 01:49 AM

Quote
Originally posted by ebed melech:
ummm...I'd be careful about throwing out that label of "demon inspired" to a recognized ecclesial movement. You only demonstrate your complete ignorance in this matter.

...labelling the movement as completely subject to the powers of Satan I think calls into question your own discernment.
Pace, Gordo, I was only stating my opinion, which happens to coincide with that of Blessed Seraphim of Platina - that the Charismatic phenomena associated with the movement is naught more than a shamanic trance.

Nowhere did I say the movement was 'completely subject to the powers of Satan' - God can well bring something good out of a demonic movement. No movement of any sort can be 'completely subject to the powers of Satan', not even Mahometanism and pagan religions.

As I recall, ecclesial blessing and approval is not covered by infallibility.

For what it's worth, I speak not as a complete stranger to the movement. I was a member of such an organisation for a reasonable amount of time (if any time there may be called reasonable at all), and not a day has gone by when I do not thank God for having led me out of it. It is not wise to automatically assume that any who disagrees with one's ideas and opinions is necessarily ignorant or undiscerming.
Posted By: DavidB, the Byzantine Catholic

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/14/06 02:02 AM

Quote
Originally posted by ebed melech:

David,

I'm sorry you misunderstood me. I did not mean that you had problems dealing with real people. I'm sure that you are a very personable fellow and have all sorts of friends.

I meant that you are painting a cartoonish picture of people in the charismatic renewal, rather than talking about real people...or at least that is what it sounded like to me.

Gordo
No, you chose to make that judgement.

I am speaking of my experiences. You can devalue them all you wish but that does not change the fact that they are my experiences.


David, Byzantine Catholic and Carmelite pre-novice.
Posted By: Pani Rose

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/14/06 04:00 AM

Maybe this link will bring some understanding to this discussion

http://www.nsc-chariscenter.org/
Posted By: ebed melech

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/14/06 09:13 AM

Quote
Originally posted by DavidB, the Byzantine Catholic:
No, you chose to make that judgement.

I am speaking of my experiences. You can devalue them all you wish but that does not change the fact that they are my experiences.

David, Byzantine Catholic and Carmelite pre-novice.
Let's be clear, David. I'm not the one handing down judgements against a whole movement by loosely tossing out a myriad of scriptural condemnations and saying - "that's many of them"! At that point you are not talking about experiences, you are talking about judgement of people...REAL people. I said you were thinking of these people as caricatures, and having lived with them, I stand by by assessment. I don't devalue your experience, but I question your judgement and misapplication of Sacred Scripture to a movement the Church has blessed. If you have issues or challenges doctrinally with the charismatic gifts, their authenticity and how they are manifested in the movement, that's fine. I said that the movement and the people are not above criticism.

Since you are in preparation for ministry in the Carmelite Order, my recommendation to you is that you take the time to read some positive theological assessments of the movement by reputable scholars and hierarchs, like Archbishop Cordes' and Montague and MacDonnell's books that I mentioned above. (You and Dr. Eric will appreciate, as did I, Archbishop Paul Cordes' assessment of the phenomenon known as "being slain in the Spirit". He sees it as very problematic, saying it is purely a psychological phenomenon that can create spiritual damage. He quotes the great Doctor of the spiritual life, St. Theresa of Avila - quite often, BTW - about resisting techniques to bring about spiritual ecstasy.)

If all you do is make your "experience" with the charismatics your measure for the movement, are you not doing the same thing you disdain among its members?

God bless,

Gordo
Posted By: ebed melech

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/14/06 09:50 AM

Quote
Originally posted by Edward Yong:
Pace, Gordo, I was only stating my opinion, which happens to coincide with that of Blessed Seraphim of Platina - that the Charismatic phenomena associated with the movement is naught more than a shamanic trance.
Edward,

Pace, as well. If you have some texts to that effect, I'd be very interested in reading them.

Quote
Nowhere did I say the movement was 'completely subject to the powers of Satan' - God can well bring something good out of a demonic movement. No movement of any sort can be 'completely subject to the powers of Satan', not even Mahometanism and pagan religions.
Well then, I'll have to keep that in mind the next time you call a movement "demon inspired". wink

Quote
As I recall, ecclesial blessing and approval is not covered by infallibility.
I never said it was. In fact, the movement known as the Humiliati was approved and its male branch was later surpressed. I believe I also said that ecclesiatical establishment is not the same as blanket approval, as we have seen with the Neocatechumenate recently. The movement has come a long way, though, from where it was in the 1970's and 80's, largely due to the initiative of the hierarchy, most especially Cardinal Suenens. Pope Paul VI's commission to Cardinal Suenens, as its first Episcopal Adviser, was to bring the Charismatic Renewal "into the heart of the Church". One could perhaps discern a double meaning in that - ensure that the movement stays close to the Church and her teachings, as well as bring aspects of an authetic renewal of the charisms of the laity to the heart of the whole Church. Archbishop Paul Cordes was Suenen's successor in that role for ten years.

Quote
For what it's worth, I speak not as a complete stranger to the movement. I was a member of such an organisation for a reasonable amount of time (if any time there may be called reasonable at all), and not a day has gone by when I do not thank God for having led me out of it. It is not wise to automatically assume that any who disagrees with one's ideas and opinions is necessarily ignorant or undiscerming.
Thanks for that advice. It is also wise not to project one's experience onto a whole movement ("demon inspired" and "full of prelest"?). As I said, I am "out of the movement" myself and fully participate in the Byzantine tradition. I see within Eastern Christianity, as Alex alluded to, a fulfillment of many of the fundamental aspirations of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal. (That may be one of the reasons why an Orthodox church was formed within the covenant community I grew up in.) It's emphasis on conversion (aka "Baptism or Outpouring of the Holy Spirit"), praise, Sacred Scripture, the gifts of the Holy Spirit and the pneumatalogical dimension of the spiritual life represent the lifeblood - or "sap" of the living structure of the "tree" of the Church. One does not need to be part of the "movement" to be "charismatic". Nor does one need to experience the "gift of tongues" or even a special "outpouring". Nor does one need (thankfully) a casio keyboard. biggrin

I found most of the people within the movement to be of good will, with a sincere love for Jesus Christ. Your equating their experience as "naught more than a shamanic trance" a "demonic movement" and "full of prelest" still leads me to question your discernment in this regard.

Gordo
Posted By: ebed melech

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/14/06 10:17 AM

Quote
Originally posted by Pani Rose:
Maybe this link will bring some understanding to this discussion

http://www.nsc-chariscenter.org/
Thanks, Pani Rose. What a tremendous resource! And how many groups actually read and care about the magisterial documents of the Church?

I would also point out that a number of wonderful manifestations of modern Catholic ecclesial life sprang from the heart of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal movement:

- EWTN
- Miles Jesu
- Franciscan University of Steubenville (post-Father Michael Scanlan's arrival in '74) and its MYRIAD of apostolates and religious orders that were started by its student body
- Franciscan Friars of the Renewal
- Emmanuel Community (France)

"Demon inspired" indeed. Did not Jesus say 'A kingdom divided against itself will not stand." when others accused Him of using demonic powers to cast out demons?

Gordo
Posted By: ebed melech

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/14/06 10:29 AM

Quote
Originally posted by ebed melech:
Quote
Originally posted by Pani Rose:
[b] Maybe this link will bring some understanding to this discussion

http://www.nsc-chariscenter.org/
Thanks, Pani Rose. What a tremendous resource! And how many groups actually read and care about the magisterial documents of the Church?

I would also point out that a number of wonderful manifestations of modern Catholic ecclesial life sprang from the heart of the Catholic Charismatic Renewal movement:

- EWTN
- Miles Jesu
- Franciscan University of Steubenville (post-Father Michael Scanlan's arrival in '74) and its MYRIAD of apostolates and religious orders that were started by its student body
- Franciscan Friars and Sisters of the Renewal
- Emmanuel Community (France)

"Demon inspired" indeed. Did not Jesus say 'A kingdom divided against itself will not stand." when others accused Him of using demonic powers to cast out demons?

Gordo [/b]
Posted By: ebed melech

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/14/06 11:09 AM

It's pretty pathetic when you start quoting yourself. biggrin

Admin, Can you remove this post and my last (repeat) one above? I'm not sure how that happened!

Thanks!

Gordo
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/14/06 12:24 PM

Dear Edward,

Actually, Blessed Seraphim of Platina considered all Catholics to be totally bereft of grace, including (and especially!) Eastern Catholics.

In dealing with Roman Catholics who didn't see things the way Orthodoxy did, Blessed Seraphim chalked it up to "lack of grace through separation from the Church."

That's hardly an authority to quote on the Catholic Charismatic Renewal.

As Catholics, we're already off his radar screen . . .

Alex
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/14/06 12:29 PM

Dear Gordo,

There is the case of the Greek Orthodox parish associated with LOGOS publications that was initially very much against the Charismatic movement . . . until their priest began speaking in tongues himself . . .

I think Pavel is right to say that the Charismatic/Neo-Pentecostal movement has not been well-managed in the Catholic Church.

When one speaks with Catholic Charismatics, one often finds that they blurr the differences between Catholicism and Protestantism re: the "assurance of salvation" and the like.

And there always were some Catholic Pentecostals, as they sometimes call themselves, who joined the Pentecostal churches.

But how many of those who "speak in tongues" among them truly are doing so? Or prophesying in the Spirit? Can we honestly compare what goes in those meetings with what occurred during the Apostolic age?

Yes, the Spirit can overshadow and bless us with His Gifts.

But it is HIS call to do so, not ours - and Charismatics often act as if they "have the Spirit" simply by praying for Him to come into their lives.

The great ascetics have shown that spiritual life is an arduous struggle. Without that struggle and without the Cross, there can be no spiritual life.

Alex
Posted By: ebed melech

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/14/06 12:33 PM

AMEN to all of it! I heartily agree.

Gordo

PS: Thanks for the story about LOGOS. I had not heard that...
Posted By: Edward Yong

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/14/06 12:40 PM

Krisdos haryeav i merelots!

Quote
Originally posted by ebed melech:
Pace, as well. If you have some texts to that effect, I'd be very interested in reading them.
The book to read on this subject is 'Orthodoxy and the Religion of the Future' by Blessed Seraphim (Rose) of Platina. The relevant chapters are available online at this site.

Quote
Well then, I'll have to keep that in mind the next time you call a movement "demon
inspired". wink
Just like Protestantism.

Quote
The movement has come a long way, though, from where it was in the 1970's and 80's, largely due to the initiative of the hierarchy, most especially Cardinal Suenens. Pope Paul VI's commission to Cardinal Suenens, as its first Episcopal Adviser, was to bring the Charismatic Renewal "into the heart of the Church". One could perhaps discern a double meaning in that - ensure that the movement stays close to the Church and her teachings, as well as bring aspects of an authetic renewal of the charisms of the laity to the heart of the whole Church. Archbishop Paul Cordes was Suenen's successor in that role for ten years.
Ah yes. This same Cardinal Suenens, the arch-liberal, who pioneered the practice of Communion in the Hand, in open defiance of Rome, and then dared Rome to do anything about it. The same Cardinal Suenens who often celebrated Mass in coat and tie. How charming.

Quote
Thanks for that advice. It is also wise not to project one's experience onto a whole movement ("demon inspired" and "full of prelest"?).
You're doing it again. First I was showing my 'complete ignorance', now when I mention my own experience, I'm projecting. Caricaturing the positions of one's opponents in debate and making ad hominem attacks and assumptions - is not only bad debating, it's uncharitable and rude.

While we're on the topic of 'projecting', the next time you feel like attributing an opinion such as 'labelling the movement as completely subject to the powers of Satan' or anything similar to someone who hasn't said anything of the sort, I suggest emotional baggage is best kept to oneself.

Quote
I found most of the people within the movement to be of good will, with a sincere love for Jesus Christ.
No one is questioning their sincerity and goodwill. Good intentions, while paving the road to Hell, have nothing to do with it. I'm sure the RaŽlians are generally also of good will and sincere, but that doesn't change the fact that they are in serious error and have had their spiritual eyes blinded by demons.

Quote
Your equating their experience as "naught more than a shamanic trance" a "demonic movement" and "full of prelest" still leads me to question your discernment in this regard.
Question it all you like. I've had the benefit of having investigated similar phenomena in pagan religions - which are frequently visible in Singapore, in Taoism and Hinduism among others. The shamanistic trances that mediums in these religions undergo, and the process by which the mediums enter those trances and have their spirits take possession of their bodies, performing wonders and speaking in unknown languages or with impossibly different voices, is frighteningly similar to what goes on in the Charismatic movement.

Blessed Seraphim knew what he was talking about - he had much experience with the occult in North America. It is no wonder then, that converts from Taoism and Hinduism tend to avoid the Charismatic movement - in both Catholic and Protestant Churches. It's far too close to home for comfort.
Posted By: Pavel Ivanovich

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/14/06 12:46 PM

When I lived in Malawi in Central Africa in the 60s it was the Malawian Clergy who were not so keen on the drums etc in Church while the European clergy and sisters were the ones bringing it in. They just did not do it when the Archbishop was around as he was dead against it. The Archbishop's family had converted from the local pagan religion and he associated the drums with the pagan world.

ICXC
NIKA
Posted By: Edward Yong

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/14/06 12:47 PM

XB!

Alex,

Blessed Seraphim was certainly an extremist with regards to the matter of grace amongst Catholics, but he nevertheless makes good points against the Charismatic movement.
Posted By: DavidB, the Byzantine Catholic

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/14/06 04:45 PM

Quote
Originally posted by ebed melech:
Let's be clear, David. I'm not the one handing down judgements against a whole movement by loosely tossing out a myriad of scriptural condemnations and saying - "that's many of them"! At that point you are not talking about experiences, you are talking about judgement of people...REAL people. I said you were thinking of these people as caricatures, and having lived with them, I stand by by assessment. I don't devalue your experience, but I question your judgement and misapplication of Sacred Scripture to a movement the Church has blessed. If you have issues or challenges doctrinally with the charismatic gifts, their authenticity and how they are manifested in the movement, that's fine. I said that the movement and the people are not above criticism.
I have judged no people. I have said that the charismatic movement is not for me and I will have nothing to do with it.

It seems that you like to judge those of us who do not care for the "movement".

Quote

Since you are in preparation for ministry in the Carmelite Order, my recommendation to you is that you take the time to read some positive theological assessments of the movement by reputable scholars and hierarchs, like Archbishop Cordes' and Montague and MacDonnell's books that I mentioned above. (You and Dr. Eric will appreciate, as did I, Archbishop Paul Cordes' assessment of the phenomenon known as "being slain in the Spirit". He sees it as very problematic, saying it is purely a psychological phenomenon that can create spiritual damage. He quotes the great Doctor of the spiritual life, St. Theresa of Avila - quite often, BTW - about resisting techniques to bring about spiritual ecstasy.)

If all you do is make your "experience" with the charismatics your measure for the movement, are you not doing the same thing you disdain among its members?
No I do not think so and St Theresa of Avila isn ot talking about the Charismatic movement.

I think it is time to move on to other discussions, seems we have hit a nerve of yours and you will brook no disagreement with your views.

I think you need to understand that others experiences are just as valid as yours.
Posted By: ebed melech

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/14/06 10:16 PM

Quote
Originally posted by Edward Yong:
Ah yes. This same Cardinal Suenens, the arch-liberal, who pioneered the practice of Communion in the Hand, in open defiance of Rome, and then dared Rome to do anything about it. The same Cardinal Suenens who often celebrated Mass in coat and tie. How charming.
What you are sharing is news to me as far as celebrating Mass in a coat and tie. As far as communion in the hand, any discussion around that takes us far afield from the original topic. I am not an advocate for the practice, but I do not see that as an indictment against the Cardinal.

Quote
You're doing it again. First I was showing my 'complete ignorance', now when I mention my own experience, I'm projecting. Caricaturing the positions of one's opponents in debate and making ad hominem attacks and assumptions - is not only bad debating, it's uncharitable and rude.
Doing what again? You launch a salvo about demons and prelest as an indictment against thousands of people and a movement that has been blessed by the church hierarchy and I'm uncharitable and rude for saying your statements betray your ignorance?

Quote
While we're on the topic of 'projecting', the next time you feel like attributing an opinion such as 'labelling the movement as completely subject to the powers of Satan' or anything similar to someone who hasn't said anything of the sort, I suggest emotional baggage is best kept to oneself.
Perhaps you can clarify how demon inspired is any different from being subjected to the powers of Satan. Is either desirable or complimentary?

Instead of playing psychologist, why don't you clarify your extreme statements. Honestly - between you and David. Both of you launch extreme, blanket criticisms of a Christian movement and then when someone calls you on how absurd and extreme your statements are, you attempt to reduce the objection to neuroses. May I point out that I am not the one citing emotional exeriences as part of the rationale for the wholesale rejection of a movement? I suggest you examine your own bags or check them at the door.

Quote
No one is questioning their sincerity and goodwill. Good intentions, while paving the road to Hell, have nothing to do with it. I'm sure the RaŽlians are generally also of good will and sincere, but that doesn't change the fact that they are in serious error and have had their spiritual eyes blinded by demons.
Nice. Now the parallel you offer to the Charismatic renewal is the RaŽlians. Thank goodness you didn't say that they were subject to the powers of Satan. I guess THAT would REALLY have been bad!

Quote
Question it all you like. I've had the benefit of having investigated similar phenomena in pagan religions - which are frequently visible in Singapore, in Taoism and Hinduism among others. The shamanistic trances that mediums in these religions undergo, and the process by which the mediums enter those trances and have their spirits take possession of their bodies, performing wonders and speaking in unknown languages or with impossibly different voices, is frighteningly similar to what goes on in the Charismatic movement.
Are you entirely sure you were part of a Catholic Charismatic Renewal group? No one I know of ever spoke in different voices or fell into deep trances in the twenty years I was exposed to the movement.

Clearly if your comparative analysis detailed above is your rationale for condemning wholesale the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, I would argue that your conclusions are baseless. Any hint of similarity (and there is very little) does not equate with sameness.

You seem convinced by "Blessed" Seraphim Rose, your flimsy analysis and personal experience over and against the discernment and guidance of the of the Catholic Church for over 30 years. And for that we are to believe that this movement is demon inspired and the people full of prelest?

Most unimpressive.
Posted By: ebed melech

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/14/06 10:43 PM

Quote
Originally posted by DavidB, the Byzantine Catholic:
I have judged no people. I have said that the charismatic movement is not for me and I will have nothing to do with it.
I beg to differ, David.

Shall I remind you of what you posted on page two of this thread?

Quote
But doesn't the Lord say.

Matthew 7:15-23
15"Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are (M)ravenous wolves.
16"You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they?
17"So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit.
18"A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.
19"Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
20"So then, you will know them by their fruits.
21"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.
22"Many will say to Me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?'
23"And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.'

So if a tree is bearing both good fruit and bad nuts then there is something wrong with the tree.

And then there is this from 2 Timothy 4.

1I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;

2Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.

3For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;

4And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

5But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry.

I believe that many in the Charismatic movement done so.
You understate your Scriptural condemnations of "many" in the movement. I realize it is probably uncomfortable to be confronted with the injustice of highly disparaging remarks especially those that involve the mispplication of inspired texts. I suggest you either retract or defend them, since the "many" are composed of real people that I have known and had friendships with for years. I left the movement for my own reasons, and yes some of them are based on fundamental disagreements. But yours and Edwards statements should not be allowed to stand unchallenged.

Quote
It seems that you like to judge those of us who do not care for the "movement".
No - I don't. I am actually quite sympathetic in more ways than you would expect. I make no judgement of your person, only your thoughtless bandying about of Scriptures to condemn something I get the impression you neither fully understand nor intend to understand.

Quote
No I do not think so and St Theresa of Avila isn ot talking about the Charismatic movement.
I think you misunderstood my mention (and Cordes' citation) of St. Theresa. She is arguing against the pursuit of ecstatic experiences due to its damage to the spiritual life. I think there is ample reason to quote her, even though she is not directly referring to the charismatic renewal. I think it is of great benefit to the members and leaders of the renewal to read and study her writings, in part because I think that the search for ecstatic experiences can be a real temptation for the members of the movement. It was potentially a point of agreement between us, but for some reason you turned it to a disagreement.

Quote
I think it is time to move on to other discussions, seems we have hit a nerve of yours and you will brook no disagreement with your views.
The "nerve" is not with those who have honest theological differences or disagreement with the movement. (Although I am more than willling to challenge some of these assumptions. That is, I assume, the point of forums like this.) It is with those that for some reason are incapable of appreciating the good within something they may take issue with - and then of course condemning the "many" who support it that strikes a nerve with me.

Quote
I think you need to understand that others experiences are just as valid as yours.
I supose that depends on what you mean by "valid". I do not question that you had a bad experience, or one that certainly not to your liking or taste. To me, the truth of the Church and the Gospel is the measure of "validity", and I believe that the Holy Spirit guides our leadership in the discernment of such matters. (It is not a question of infallibility at this point.) There are certainly reasons to be cautious about aspects of the charismatic movement - just as there are reasons to be cautious about aspects of the Neocatechumenate. As much has been acknowledged by the Church's pastors, including episcopal advisors to the renewal.

God bless,

Gordo
Posted By: Laka Ya Rabb

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/15/06 01:30 AM

I don't see anything that the Charismatic renewal has to offer the Eastern Catholic Churches.

I am open to discussion on this, but in my experience with the CCR and the ECC, I can hardly see what.
Posted By: ebed melech

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/15/06 02:07 AM

Quote
Originally posted by Laka Ya Rabb:
I don't see anything that the Charismatic renewal has to offer the Eastern Catholic Churches.

I am open to discussion on this, but in my experience with the CCR and the ECC, I can hardly see what.
To a large extent, I agree with you - especially in its current form. I do think, however, that we can learn from its emphasis on personal conversion, openness to the charisms of the laity as expressed within our spiritual tradition, commitment to evangelization, enthusiasm for a personal relationship with Christ, etc etc.

If anything, I think the inverse is true - the Byzantine Church can be a help to those in the renewal. As I said before, I believe our worship and theology represent a fulfillment of the authentic aspirations of the renewal movement. Eastern Christian liturgical life and thelogy is an appropriate corrective to some of the excesses that exist from time to time in the renewal.

Gordo
Posted By: Edward Yong

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/15/06 03:37 AM

XB

Quote
Originally posted by ebed melech:
[QB]What you are sharing is news to me as far as celebrating Mass in a coat and tie. As far as communion in the hand, any discussion around that takes us far afield from the original topic. I am not an advocate for the practice, but I do not see that as an indictment against the Cardinal.
If you don't see his liberalism as an indictment, there really is nothing further to talk about.

Quote
Doing what again? You launch a salvo about demons and prelest as an indictment against thousands of people and a movement that has been blessed by the church hierarchy and I'm uncharitable and rude for saying your statements betray your ignorance?
This is what you're doing again: assuming anyone who has a differing view is either ignorant or projecting.

Quote
Perhaps you can clarify how demon inspired is any different from being subjected to the powers of Satan. Is either desirable or complimentary?
What I said was 'demon-inspired', as is any schism or heretical movement. That's quite different from being 'completely subject to the power of Satan', which you attributed to me. To twist a debating opponent's words and make a caricature of his position and attack that, instead of engaging his exact words, is intellectually dishonest, and bad debating tactics, something for which I think an apology should be forthcoming.

Quote
Instead of playing psychologist, why don't you clarify your extreme statements. Honestly - between you and David. Both of you launch extreme, blanket criticisms of a Christian movement and then when someone calls you on how absurd and extreme your statements are, you attempt to reduce the objection to neuroses. May I point out that I am not the one citing emotional exeriences as part of the rationale for the wholesale rejection of a movement? I suggest you examine your own bags or check them at the door.
One sign of emotional baggage is overreacting to someone's statements and attributing all sorts of assumptions and motives, projections and suchlike , instead of engaging exactly what was said. This is precisely what you have been doing these past two pages.

Quote
Nice. Now the parallel you offer to the Charismatic renewal is the RaŽlians. Thank goodness you didn't say that they were subject to the powers of Satan. I guess THAT would REALLY
have been bad!
No mortal is immune to the power of Satan. The charismatic phenomena is nothing more than shamanism, plain and simple.

Quote
Are you entirely sure you were part of a Catholic Charismatic Renewal group? No one I know of ever spoke in different voices or fell into deep trances in the twenty years I was exposed to
the movement.
Ah. Stupid me. I didn't think to ask if the group was CCR. Perhaps even though they met in an RC church, had statues of Our Lady of Fatima and the Sacred Heart, they were actually Protestants in disguise.

Quote
Clearly if your comparative analysis detailed above is your rationale for condemning wholesale the Catholic Charismatic Renewal, I would argue that your conclusions are baseless. Any hint of similarity (and there is very little) does not equate with sameness.
Before you pronounce that there is no more than a little hint of similarity, I'd like to know how much experience with pagan mediums you've had. Reading newspaper reports and watching occasional newsclips on CNN don't count.

Quote
You seem convinced by "Blessed" Seraphim Rose, your flimsy analysis and personal experience over and against the discernment and guidance of the of the Catholic Church for over 30 years. And for that we are to believe that this movement is demon inspired and the people full of prelest?
The analysis is not my own, even if the personal experience is - the analysis is that of the constant Tradition of the Church, both East and West. The phenomena of speaking in unknown tongues disappeared for a reason, and the Charismatic 'gift of tongues' gobbledygook is not the same as that of the New Testament.

Furthermore, the movement was born in Protestantism, and only spread to the Catholic and Orthodox Churches through Catholics and Orthodox receiving this sham 'Baptism in the Spirit' from Protestants, not through the
sacramental channels of grace established by Christ. The Saints of old would have suffered a martyr's death rather than seek a Protestant mock-sacrament as a channel to sanctity. This nonsense only encourages religious indifferentism. My experience has been that the Charismatic movement has been more of a way out of the Catholic Church for Catholics, than a way into the Catholic Church for Protestants.

It must be further noted that Pentecostalism encourages extraordinary phenomena such as "prophesying" and "talking in tongues." Yet the great mystical writer and Doctor of the Church, St. John of the Cross, warned that souls must flee from seeking any such manifestations. What this great Saint said of private revelations
equally applies to all such phenomena: "Wherein the devil habitually meddles so freely [in extraordinary phenomenon] that I believe it impossible for a man not to be deceived by them, unless he strive to reject them, such an appearance of truth and security does the Devil give them.

Also, Msgr. Knox wrote that "to speak in tongues you had never learned was, and is, a recognized symptom in cases of alleged diabolic possession." To freely expose oneself to such dangers borders on madness.

One cannot help but wonder if a Catholic or Orthodox, even a priest, walks into such doubtful activities with his eyes wide open, omits to test the spirits, and persists in such heterodox practice, would end up being punished with a spiritual blindness that judges certain evils as good. Whether this is the case with the individual Charismatics, only God knows.

Quote
Most unimpressive.
I don't particularly care about whether you're impressed or not. Living in America, it is understandable that you have very little daily contact and experience with the strength and nature of pagan mediumistic phenomena and therefore dismiss it out of hand.

Any comparison between Eastern Christianity and the Charismatic movement is entirely repugnant and does justice to neither.

And lest you accuse me next of a blanket condemnation of the movement and being incapable of appreciating any good in it whatsover, I will hasten to add that whatever genuine spiritual benefits it brings to its practitioners, I concede to be good.
Posted By: Alfonsus

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/15/06 09:38 AM

I think when we talk about Catholic Charismatic, we often lump everything together as "pentecostal", catholic things and protestant thing and probably even non-christian thing into one pool.

I agree that not all in this pentecostal pool is catholic, and not all in Catholic Charismatic movement is "true" Catholic Charismatic movement.

But then this is the point, apart from all things good and bad we discussed here, how is the Church (at least Catholic Church) define and see "true" Catholic Charismatic movement? What are the characters, the signs of this movement which are blessed by the Church?

Then, if we meet someone not in line with this true character, how can we guide that person to understand the Catholic Charismatic movement in the way the Church bless?

I see that we are discussing things without even talking what kind of Charismatic Movement is blessed by the Church and lump everything into one and bash them all together, the one blessed by the Church and those that are not even probably close to Catholic Charismatic movement as intended by the Church.
Posted By: ebed melech

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/15/06 11:43 AM

Quote
Originally posted by Alfonsus:
I see that we are discussing things without even talking what kind of Charismatic Movement is blessed by the Church and lump everything into one and bash them all together, the one blessed by the Church and those that are not even probably close to Catholic Charismatic movement as intended by the Church.
Alfonsus,

Excellent points all. I would recommend that you take a look at Archbishop Paul Cordes' book. He covers quite well the different charismatic phenomenon, how they are rooted in both Scripture and the teaching of the church, and where there are temptations to go astray or to engage in practices that are psychologically induced.

The chapter titles and subsections of his book may provide some detail that would be helpful:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0814658873/ref=sib_dp_pt/102-0519044-6671341#reader-page

Edward,

I hestitate to reply since you seem to be at a fever pitch at this moment. You positions are extreme and outside of the church's discernment of these matters. Doubtless I could provide no proof to the contrary, since you seem convinced by your reading of a questionable Orthodox writer (questionable not only according to many Catholics but also to many Orthodox), your own experience in the CCR which apparently was abysmal and your weak comparisons to other religious groups. Your quote from Knox's text ("Enthusiasm" I suppose?) was probably the most helpful thing you've contributed to this conversation...that and the link to Father Seraphim Rose's work.

Actually I think your arguments in this section bring up some very interesting points for consideration:

Quote
Furthermore, the movement was born in Protestantism, and only spread to the Catholic and Orthodox Churches through Catholics and Orthodox receiving this sham 'Baptism in the Spirit' from Protestants, not through the sacramental channels of grace established by Christ. The Saints of old would have suffered a martyr's death rather than seek a Protestant mock-sacrament as a channel to sanctity. This nonsense only encourages religious indifferentism. My experience has been that the Charismatic movement has been more of a way out of the Catholic Church for Catholics, than a way into the Catholic Church for Protestants.

It must be further noted that Pentecostalism encourages extraordinary phenomena such as "prophesying" and "talking in tongues." Yet the great mystical writer and Doctor of the Church, St. John of the Cross, warned that souls must flee from seeking any such manifestations. What this great Saint said of private revelations equally applies to all such phenomena: "Wherein the devil habitually meddles so freely [in extraordinary phenomenon] that I believe it impossible for a man not to be deceived by them, unless he strive to reject them, such an appearance of truth and security does the Devil give them.

Also, Msgr. Knox wrote that "to speak in tongues you had never learned was, and is, a recognized symptom in cases of alleged diabolic possession." To freely expose oneself to such dangers borders on madness.

One cannot help but wonder if a Catholic or Orthodox, even a priest, walks into such doubtful activities with his eyes wide open, omits to test the spirits, and persists in such heterodox practice, would end up being punished with a spiritual blindness that judges certain evils as good. Whether this is the case with the individual Charismatics, only God knows.
In truth I have wondered about many of the things you have mentioned here:

- The propensity of charismatics to leave communion with the Catholic Church. I can point to several examples where this occurred in my own experience. Evidently this has been discussed several times at the international levels of leadership for the CCR with the Church hierarchy. I believe that is one of the reasons why the hierarchy was very keen to embrace and fully Catholicize the movement, which I think - at least based on my experience here in the states - has been pretty successful.

As to the "mock sacrament", I'm not sure how Baptism in the Holy Spirit was treated in Singapore (in Europe it is called "Outpouring of the Holy Spirit", probably to reduce confusion with anything sacramental), but I recall early on that it appeared to me to be something of a "sacrament" or even a "rite of passage" (not that the two are synonymous!). As the renewal has matured here in the states at least, the understanding of this experience has turned more towards "fanning the flame" or the spiritual ember that was given in Baptism and Chrismation. So the connection to the sacraments/mysteries is made when referring to this experience as a deepening of interior conversion.

The connection to Protestantism, which I mentioned earlier, has been a source of great potential for the renewal ecumenically speaking, as well as source of very real problems in every other way...at least early on. I believe that the principal points of reference for those in the early stages of the CCR were Protestant, since very little literature existed from a Catholic perspective (later Patristic connections to some phenomenon were identified). This caused many in the lay leadership of the movement to adopt Protestant models of worship and even a sort of "para-ecclesiology" where the false dichotomy of the "charismatic" and "institutional" Church creates a para-ecclesial reality known as the "Covenant Community". These developed out of a desire to live a common life patterened after Acts 2 (including Acts 2:42) - the experience of the church after Pentecost. In reality, there was much floundering as some attempted to reinvent the ecclesial wheel.

I attribute the cause of this to a number of factors:

1. The inability of Catholic charismatics in large part to interpret their experience according to Catholic theological categories. The large scale effort to do just this began under Suenens and these works are contained in the "Documents of Malines" which detail specific points of direction for the CCR.

2. The challenge of the average pastor (including some bishops) and average parish to understand how to deal with the complexities of a new movement. Again, this has some tie to the first point above. You can imagine the difficulty: A parish priest has a few parishioners coming to him saying that they are experiencing phenomenon from Acts 2 and that this should be the pattern of all Catholic life. Since the movement did not have a figurehead, like say the early Franciscans with St. Francis, it took some time for the leadership and spokepeople for the movement to be identified and developed. How should a pastor respond? Suffice it to say the responses were mixed. Some were very open to the movement, others were not at all, while others were cautious and still pastoral. the reaction of parishes were also mixed, but more often then not charismatics were viewed as wierd and extreme. And, quite honestly, some were. Human nature is what it is. Some people took things too far. The faculties for discernment of "prophetic inclinations" were not that developed so things were said and done that should not have been. At the same time, there were some pretty amazing things happening. Despite its immaturity and the immaturity of its members at times, the movement was full of energy and idealism and people came to a deeper realization of their need for prayer, the study of Sacred Scripture, conversion to Jesus Christ and evangelization. I think this caused some in the community to see themselves as a persecuted minority, and to see unhealthy parallels between those who rejected them with the Pharisees of the Gospels.

3. The desire of members of the movement to live the book of Acts - "holding all things in common" - as much as possible. Problems arose when, according to the Protestant model, "lay elders" took the form of apostles in some parts of the movement. What many thought was the return to a biblical model of ecclesial life lacked a proper Catholic character in the para-ecclesial model that had developed in some sectors. There were some in the movement that kept this tendency in check. (I can remember debates in our community on this very point.) Others, for a variety of reasons, did not. This is one of the reasons why the Church hierarchy specifically intervened on a number of occasions to help ensure the development of a Catholic model of lay ecclesial life. This was the late adolescent period of the movement. In the late 80's early 90's - at least here in the states - there was an enormous rift in the the CCR and the covenant community structure. Those who desired a more protestantized model went one way. Those who desired a more Catholic model, went another. Some left the movement altogether. (I would put myself in the third category, although my separation from the CCR had begun before the big break, especially as I became more and more exposed to the Christian East.)

Since then, the character of the CCR and the Catholic "Covenant Community" structure has changed and become even MORE Catholic and mainstream, at least here in the states. None of the ideals of the CCR have been lost - conversion to Jesus Christ, love for Sacred Scripture, an emphasis on the charisms of the laity, and evangelization. They have just become even more identifiable with the Catholic tradition and traditional forms of Catholic life. Some have even returned to the "prayer group" model in the parish from the early days, which I think is a good thing. (Also some prayer groups never joined the Covenant Community movement.)

- The propensity to look for extraordinary manifestations or experiences of the Holy Spirit. This is - and always shall be - a temptation within the spiritual life, whether you are the member of a Carmelite convent or a CCR prayer group.

- The use of "tongues" as a form of spiritual prayer. I remain unconvinced by either side at this point. I know you see it as a demonic or purely psychological phenomenon. Archbishop Paul Cordes differs from you on this point, and you will be happy to know he does not where a coat and tie at Holy Mass. wink The point is debatable, and it is certainly not a point upon which my salvation hinges. Clearly I am not sympathetic at all to your extreme position (the demonic) in this regard.

As to the blindness of the Church's shepherds regarding the CCR, I think you are being more than a bit presumptuous.

Gordo
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/15/06 12:49 PM

Dear Edward,

BB!

With respect to Cardinal Suenens, we need to be careful when we classify him as a "liberal."

He was certainly perceived as such by Latin Catholics - but a number of things he did was actually inspired by his love for the Eastern Catholic Churches!

For example, he was very much in favour of a married Roman Catholic priesthood, as in the EC Churches - that was when Pope Paul VI really cracked down hard on the Cardinal.

And traditionalist Latin Catholics, since Vatican II, have tended to eye with suspicion ANY borrowing from the Eastern Churches as a stream of liberalism in the RC Church.

So we need to be careful . . .

Blessed Seraphim of Platina made a number of good points about the pentecostal movements, to be sure!

He pointed out about cases during mass Protestant Pentecostal vigils when "fire" would come down from "heaven" to destroy Catholic relgious images . . .

"Could it be," Bl. Seraphim asked, "that the 'lord' is anti-Catholic?" wink

Alex
Posted By: ebed melech

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/15/06 02:22 PM

Alex,

Cardinal Suenens also played a critical role in the restoration of the permanent diaconate (open to qualified married men) in the Latin West where it had become merely a transitional role to the presbyterate and in the Catholic East, where it had virtually disappeared as well. (The Orthodox always preserved the diaconate, although it was greatly reduced from its glory days to a purely liturgical role.) His speech at the council on the diaconate played a pivotal role in turning the hearts and minds of the other bishops in attendance towards restoring this ancient order. And he drew on the experience of the early diaconate and the Christian East. All of this is documented.

I wish more Cardinals would wear suits and ties if it brought about results like that! biggrin

Gordo
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/15/06 08:21 PM

Dear Memo and Gordo,

I like a lot of the things you've both had to say.

I used to be involved in the Charismatic movement -- during my undergrad at Steubenville and for a couple years following -- but am not currently.

Regarding your suggestion to David:

Quote
Perhaps you need to visit an authentic Renewal group nowadays.
I believe I should like to visit such a group. Have you any suggestions about how to find one in a given locale? (That process doesn't seem to be as straightforward as e.g. finding the nearest Ukrainian Catholic parish.)

Appreciating any help you can give,
Peter.
Posted By: Laka Ya Rabb

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/15/06 08:45 PM

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To a large extent, I agree with you - especially in its current form. I do think, however, that we can learn from its emphasis on personal conversion, openness to the charisms of the laity as expressed within our spiritual tradition, commitment to evangelization, enthusiasm for a personal relationship with Christ, etc etc.
The renewal has had positive effects in the Latin Church, but unfortunately equally devestating effects.

The things that you mentioned have always been emphasized in the traditions of the Eastern Church and all her beautiful traditions. Of all the things you mention, I don't see were the East falls short and in that sense, I still don't see what the CCR would offer the East.

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If anything, I think the inverse is true - the Byzantine Church can be a help to those in the renewal. As I said before, I believe our worship and theology represent a fulfillment of the authentic aspirations of the renewal movement. Eastern Christian liturgical life and thelogy is an appropriate corrective to some of the excesses that exist from time to time in the renewal.

Gordo
I agree wil you perspective up to a point. I would take it farther though. I think the Eastern Catholic Church and Her traditions are a corrective to the CCR.

In contradistinction, if the West would embrace her authentic traditionsand if people would live the spirituality that the West has to offer, I don't think that the West would even consider the CCR. It would disappear.


All this said, I personally do not have any major issues with the CCR per se. The excesses are what I take contention with, which I know most involved in the CCR do too.

I will say though, that for me, I really outgrew the CCR and it really is to me an infantile and falsely-modern approach to Catholic spirituality. I don't see it as a universal call from the Holy Spirit. I certainly don't see it as a gift from the Blessed Trinity.

Rather, I see it as a legitimate personal style of devotion with certain aspects of a spiriutality.
All this should make painfully clear to the reader of my post that I am not against the CCR in the Latin Church. As for the Churches of the East, I just don't see what it has to offer and it is best left outside of those Churches.
Posted By: Pani Rose

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/15/06 09:31 PM

I have stayed out of this discussion on purpose. However, the thing I have noticed in our 27 years of involvment with the Charismatic Renewal is the maturity that is taken place. Yes, you have problem areas - and as long as we are merely human you will. But, then there have been bad popes, bad patriarchs, bad bisops & priest, religious, and bad layity, so pointing a finger at a true minority of people doesn't work. The good fruit that has been born as a result of the Charismatic Renewal in the Roman Rite far outweigths the wrong - or the good that people have done poorly.

What I have seen in the Renewal, is a return to the Upper Room. http://burningbush.beatitudes.org/english/index.htm
Even the congress for this year with Pope Benedict is of that essence http://burningbush.beatitudes.org/english/upperroom2006.htm

Most of those I know who are and have been active have developed a 'Carmelite' spirituality of sorts. A quietness, great peace, yet there comes tremendous worphip and praise, all in it's time and place. A beautiful witness to the power of the Holy Spirit leading his people. A wonderful maturity in life in the Holy Spirit.

We in the East are so blessed with the powerful worship of the Divine Liturgy and the consistancy that our walk has brought. Yet at some point in our lives we say yes, at some point we ask Jesus to stir up in us a flame taht the world cannot extinguish. This is what the CR does for many souls, it is the fiat of sorts, their lives are changed forever - never to look back but always looking forward towards Christ and our Heavenly Father, through the awesomeness of the Holy Spirit.

My husband says it is a methodology of theology, always beginning with the Father. God the Father initiates, how does he do that? It is by his sending his Son, the Word, Jesus made flesh. How do we receive the annointing of the Word? By the power of the Holy Spirit. So there is a constant essence of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and no matter where we enter into the Trinity we enter into that cycle of love.

All I desire to say is Jesus I want more! More of you Jesus! More of your Holy Spirit! More that I may grow in greater love of God our Father! Amen!

Pani Rose
Posted By: Laka Ya Rabb

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/15/06 09:45 PM

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Yet at some point in our lives we say yes, at some point we ask Jesus to stir up in us a flame taht the world cannot extinguish. This is what the CR does for many souls, it is the fiat of sorts, their lives are changed forever - never to look back but always looking forward towards Christ and our Heavenly Father, through the awesomeness of the Holy Spirit.

My husband says it is a methodology of theology, always beginning with the Father. God the Father initiates, how does he do that? It is by his sending his Son, the Word, Jesus made flesh. How do we receive the annointing of the Word? By the power of the Holy Spirit. So there is a constant essence of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit and no matter where we enter into the Trinity we enter into that cycle of love.

All I desire to say is Jesus I want more! More of you Jesus! More of your Holy Spirit! More that I may grow in greater love of God our Father! Amen!

Pani Rose
Wisdom!
What else then can be said. Thank you Pani Rose!
Posted By: ebed melech

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/15/06 09:53 PM

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Originally posted by Laka Ya Rabb:
[QUOTE]The renewal has had positive effects in the Latin Church, but unfortunately equally devestating effects.
I'm not sure how to measure the impact. Certainly one can point to many, many positives, such as the list I came up with of different organizations that have their origins in the CCR. (Including FUS where you go to school...at least in its renewed status.) Certainly there have been bad things as well, but I think the movement has been actively correcting many of these excesses and is on a good track.

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The things that you mentioned have always been emphasized in the traditions of the Eastern Church and all her beautiful traditions. Of all the things you mention, I don't see were the East falls short and in that sense, I still don't see what the CCR would offer the East.
I never said the East falls short in anything. With that said, we don't always fully live out our traditions, which include the ones I highlighted above. In that sense Ithink we could use a little "charismatic" boost! (Especially in recovering our zeal for evangelization!)

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agree wil you perspective up to a point. I would take it farther though. I think the Eastern Catholic Church and Her traditions are a corrective to the CCR. In contradistinction, if the West would embrace her authentic traditionsand if people would live the spirituality that the West has to offer, I don't think that the West would even consider the CCR. It would disappear.
I think you make some excellent points. If in fact the CCR is all that it claims to be, it is a movement of RENEWAL of the whole Church, not a movement that creates an artificial separation within the Church (charismatics and non-charismatics). As baptized and chrismated Christians we are all "charismatic"! The forms of worship often associated with the CCR movement are historically conditioned and do not reflect the essence of the movement, IMHO. The more CCR moves away from those cultural designations and focuses on the five points I already outlined (personal conversion, evangelization, love for Scripture, emphasis on the lay apostolate and reliance upon the power of the Holy Spirit) according to traditional forms the more effective its reach will be. This to me is the crowning transformation of a place like Steubenville whose stated desire to promote a "dynamic Catholic orthodoxy" aims for the right balance between living faith and ancient tradition. In this sense, the CCR as a movement should decrease and Christ and the Holy Spirit in the life of the average Catholic should increase!

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All this said, I personally do not have any major issues with the CCR per se. The excesses are what I take contention with, which I know most involved in the CCR do too.
Agreed.

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I will say though, that for me, I really outgrew the CCR and it really is to me an infantile and falsely-modern approach to Catholic spirituality. I don't see it as a universal call from the Holy Spirit. I certainly don't see it as a gift from the Blessed Trinity.
I agree to a point. I am sympathetic on the feeling of "outgrowing" the movement. I feel the same way. I am grateful for the many ways in which I was formed in the movement. But ultimately, its forms of worship do not aid me in my spiritual growth like they once did. As far as "falsely-modern" it depends on what you mean. As far as a "universal call" and "gift from teh Blessed Trinity" that depends. Are we all called to worship according to the forms adapted by the CCR Movement? NO! Are there aspects of the movement that bespeak a universal call to holiness and apostolate? Yes! In so far as the movement reflects the latter, I think it is a universal call. In so far as it reflects a more personal tastes for prayer ourside of Divine Liturgy or Holy Mass, it is as you say a " legitimate personal style of devotion with certain aspects of a spirituality."

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As for the Churches of the East, I just don't see what it has to offer and it is best left outside of those Churches.
See what I just cited in my post. I would not advocate for a Byzantine Charismatic Renewal movement per se....but would call for a renewal of our charisms as a Byzantine church!

Gordo
Posted By: Laka Ya Rabb

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/15/06 10:18 PM

Gordo,

You comments on my posts I can say have been quite accurate. I am happy with your readings of them.

Your final statement I find to be most satifcatory and agreeable with what I was hoping to express in my few postings.

I agree, we, the ekklesia could ALWAYS use a renewal, that is to say a deeper embracing of our traditions and charisms!

It seems then, that for the West, the Charismatic renewal seems to be, in many ways, an embracing of certain aspects of spirituality and traditions that had seen decline in the West.

We in the East must then too, come to embrace the traditions and Charisms already so readily accessible. In this way, imo, the East is not only a witness to the 'separated' Eastern Churches, but also to the West.

I think it is something clearly supported and recognized by Pope John Paul the Great (who is a saint to me and who I miss and love so very much!) in Orientale Lumen. He speaks so highly of the East!
Posted By: ebed melech

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/15/06 10:46 PM

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Originally posted by Pani Rose:
All I desire to say is Jesus I want more! More of you Jesus! More of your Holy Spirit! More that I may grow in greater love of God our Father! Amen!

Pani Rose
Amen, Pani Rose! You put it so beautifully.

This thread has helped me to articulate many of the things that I have felt over the years as someone who grew up in the movement, but have never been able to share. As I have said, it was largely a very positive experience for me and very formative. I am very grateful to my parents and the leadership of the CCR. It has been a rough road in some ways, but it has also come to a beautiful fruition, especially as the CCR has come to encounter and embrace traditional forms of spirituality. A tree without sap is dead and sap without a tree dissipates in the heat of the sun. To be a living organism requires both, and I believe that there is a new synergy between traditional expressions of the faith and the CCR. May it continue to renew the Church!

God bless,

Gordo (clearly I have failed in my inability to refrain from posting...oh well!)
Posted By: Pani Rose

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/15/06 11:47 PM

Gordo and Laka - excellent points!

For the Steubenville-ites and the former ones too biggrin It is funny I was thinking when you hear the truth, the truth will set you free, just then I looked up and where was the arrow pointing? By Marcus Grodi, dated 1-19 'The Truth Will Set You Free' biggrin

This is teaching very much like that we have set under for many years...You decide

Franciscan University Connections
Listen especially to the one on the Holy Spirit.
http://gabriel.franciscan.edu/connections/schedule.htm
Posted By: ukrainiancatholic

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/16/06 02:44 AM

I have, like Pani Rose, avoided this thread, but since Steubenville has been brought up, I feel compelled to comment.

For starters, I have nothing against being a Charismatic. In fact, I have Charismatic experiences all the time. For example, every time the priest/deacon invites the faithful to approach with fear, faith and the love of God-- that right there is an invitation to holiness. I can't find, nor do I know no other way of having such an intimate spiritual moment as I do when I go to Communion.

Will going to Communion make me speak in tounges? It hasn't so for and I am not expecting it to happen. Yet when the choir sings, "Recieve the Body of Christ, taste the Fountain of Immortality!" I feel nothing (for a lack of a better term) but the Spirit of God within me. That to me is the ultimate Charismatic moment.

So with that said, I move on to Steubenville. I have been on the campus several times, and have attended both the Easter Vigil Mass, and the Fellowship of Praise (FOP in campus-speak). The latter is basically a praise and worship night usually once a month, but at both the Mass and at the FOP, I have seen various manifestations of various "Charisms."

At the FOP, I witnessed many people crying, shouting, speaking in tounges, and prophesies being made. There is a "Discernment Team" that well, the name says it all. I do not question the sincere intentions the several thousand people have in attending, yet I do question the actual validity of many of the things I saw. Seeing people running around and being hysterical to me is just being caught up in the energy of the people there. The music, the amount of people, being among your peers, and the whole focus of the evening can really work someone up, so I doubt that if much of what is going on is indeed truly manifestations of the Holy Spirit. IMO, a lot of it is succumbing to peer pressure. And if the Holy Spirit was truly in a lot of these people, I'm sure the bars in town afterwards wouldn't be so filled, our various escapades of some of the Households wound't take place.

Off campus, but at an all-weekend event called a Steubenville Conference, I attended one night, since my older brother was involved with it.

I walked in when there was a rapper-priest from Brooklyn finishing up a talk. Right afterwards, the organizer of the event came to the mic and said there was to be a Eucharist Procession, and not to be fightened if one were to hear various things such as hysterical laughter, sobbing, shouting, being slain in the Spirit, etc. I took that with a grain of salt and expected none of that nonsense to occur, because it was going to be a Eucharsitic Procession. I was expecting the arena to be filled with people on dropped-knee and in total reverent silence.

The priest then came from the stage with a Monstrance and proceeded to walk around the front, down the aisles, and up the stairs. All of the sudden, a lone teenage boy stood up and starting laughing hysterically. Pretty soon others followed suit, and then there was loud sobbing, screaming, people singing, talking in tounges, and then, people passing out and falling down.

There were security guards ready to carry the "slained" people (mostly young girls) outside to the plaza. I got up and left when 3 girls infront of me fainted, one hitting her head pretty hard. No one was really instructed to catch them really....

When I went outside to the plaza, there were over 25 people laying on the pavement, one being given mouth-to-mouth, a few with oxygen masks, and one being carried to an ambulence.

I'm sorry, but when bodily hard comes in to play, I highly, highly doubt the work the Spirit involved.

How are we to truly know if this is the work of the Spirit?
How are we truly to know if there is not some demonic interfence?
How are we truly to know that one has the "gift" of tounges, or prophecy, or translating the tounges?
Couldn't one just go along with it and make up stuff?
How could things like this go on, with out proper instruction or warning?
How much of this could just be mass hysteria, or getting into the moment of it all?


Now, I will restate myself: I do not question the true intent of the soul of the person attending such Charismatic events, but, isn't it possible that a lot of this is misguided or somehow influenced by energies other than good?

I remember reading a story of the Desert Fathers, and when asked what is the hardest virtue to attain, the Abba responded by saying to pray! He said that the devil is hardest at work when we try to pray, because that then defeats his constant vigil to lead us into sin and temptation. So at a Charismatic event, wouldn't Satan and his minions be working major major major overtime?

If the Charismatic movement was an authentic way of obtaining the Holy Spirit, then would all of us, as Eastern Christians be "baptized/slain" in the Spirit or be speaking in tounges or translating or giving a prophecy every time the priest invokes the Holy Spirit at the Epiclesis? Read the Eucharistic prayers; look how it is centered around the intercession of the Holy Spirit. I sure haven't seen anyone passing out or babbling at *any* Divine Liturgy I have ever been too. Same thing at the prayers at Pentecost.

If one, as an Eastern Christian is looking for a Charismatic-type group to belong to, I would suggest taking a look at some of the Athonite Fathers, or St. Seraphim of Sarov, or St. Passiy Velychovsky, St. Mary of Egypt. These holy men and women practiced true Theosis. They experienced Christ in ways we could only wish for.

Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God; consider the outcome of their life, and imitate their faith. (Hebrews 13:7)


Sorry for such a long post.

Christ is Risen!

-uc
Posted By: Pani Rose

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/16/06 03:31 AM

Some of what you have discribed is nothing I have ever seen or experienced, the laughter and such. We have been in Alabama for 20 years now, so things may be very different. Yet, even in my taking teens to the university of conferences, I never witnessed what you have spoken of as far as what seems a type of 'hysteria'.
Posted By: ukrainiancatholic

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/16/06 03:41 AM

The Conference I went to that one night was in Southern California, where I am originally from, and I can say for sure people out there are much different than in the Deep South or out here on the East Coast, so perhaps various happenings at the Conferences are based upon demographics of the atendees.

My older brother at FUS is totally into that stuff Charismatic stuff and was at the Conference I described.... :rolleyes:

-uc
Posted By: ebed melech

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/16/06 10:42 AM

uc -

Thank you for our post. I think the questions your post raises are extremely important ones, and I would think are also foremost on the minds of the average Catholic - Eastern or Western - regarding some of the phenomena associated with the CCR.

First of all, let me tell you that I am a graduate of Franciscan University and know first hand some of the things you address here, although when I was there these events were referred to as "Festivals of Praise". (Perhaps they are called something else in California...) I attended these FOP's a number of times early in my tenure at Steubenville, but tended to avoid them in my Junior and Senior years. (This was around the time that I began to rediscover more fully the Catholic tradition of the East.) Nevertheless, some of the things you mention I have seen personally, while others are quite beyond my experience, especially the laughter part...this is known in some circles as the " Toronto Blessing ". Ever since I heard about this "blessing" I was suspicious of it and see it only as a psychological release. Again, this points to some of the difficulty of the Protestant connections that the CCR has maintained that Edward and I have discussed.

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Originally posted by ukrainiancatholic:
For starters, I have nothing against being a Charismatic. In fact, I have Charismatic experiences all the time. For example, every time the priest/deacon invites the faithful to approach with fear, faith and the love of God-- that right there is an invitation to holiness. I can't find, nor do I know no other way of having such an intimate spiritual moment as I do when I go to Communion. Will going to Communion make me speak in tounges? It hasn't so for and I am not expecting it to happen. Yet when the choir sings, "Recieve the Body of Christ, taste the Fountain of Immortality!" I feel nothing (for a lack of a better term) but the Spirit of God within me. That to me is the ultimate Charismatic moment.
What an incredible and beautifully worded point! As St. Ephrem the Syrian and Harp of the Holy Spirit has written, "there is fire in the bread, there is fire in the cup"! The Divine Liturgy is the true and authentic Pentecostal moment recapitulated in the midst of and forming the ecclesia gathered around the Eucharist. As Eastern Christians, ours is an epicletic spirituality, and the culminating epiclesis in our worship should be regarded as an outpouring of the Holy Spirit and His charisms upon the Gifts and upon the Faithful. Fire in the Bread indeed!

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I have seen various manifestations of various "Charisms."
I'm glad that you put that in quotes. There may have been some visible manifestation of charisms in your experience, but certainly not all were.

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At the FOP, I witnessed many people crying, shouting, speaking in tounges, and prophesies being made. There is a "Discernment Team" that well, the name says it all. I do not question the sincere intentions the several thousand people have in attending, yet I do question the actual validity of many of the things I saw. Seeing people running around and being hysterical to me is just being caught up in the energy of the people there. The music, the amount of people, being among your peers, and the whole focus of the evening can really work someone up, so I doubt that if much of what is going on is indeed truly manifestations of the Holy Spirit. IMO, a lot of it is succumbing to peer pressure. And if the Holy Spirit was truly in a lot of these people, I'm sure the bars in town afterwards wouldn't be so filled, our various escapades of some of the Households wound't take place.
It is difficult to respond to every point you bring up. To help me, I will quote Archbishop Paul Cordes in his book, Call to Holiness: Reflections on the CCR:

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The experience of "Baptism in the holy Spirit" is the certain and sometimes overwhelming "realization" of the loving nearness of God proclaimed in the Church's message and encountered in an individual act of faith. It is a threshold of the spiritual life that is crossed, bringing trust in the Father and a desire to be open to the teaching of the Holy Spirit. It constantly deepens our faith, so confirming our "conviction about things we do not see" (Heb 11:1) and making possible the perception of God's effective presence." this experiential perception reveals God in His immense incomprehensibility as well as in His loving and Fatherly care. This revelation of God attracts , opens new categories of thought, reveals new goals and desires, makes clear the signifigance of God's Will as well as of human sinfulness and the need of repentance.This experience is similar to that of St. John of the Cross, when he states: "I think that one who has not experienced it cannot well understand it. But the soul that experiences it, seeing what is deeply felt still remains to be understood, calls it an 'indefinable something': sinceit cannot be understood, it cannot be expressed, but it can well be felt."

Often accmpanied by speaking in tongues ("glossolalia") (cf. 1 Cor 14), this experience is sometimes also accompanied by tears. It is an experience which does not exclude human emotions discovering God's goodness and mercy. It is a spiritual experience of thirst, which finds its satisfaction in the one true inner spring, an immense, peacefully flowing river in which to be immersed (cf. John 7:37ff.)...

The "Outpouring of the Holy Spirit" is a decisive introduction to a renewed perception and understanding of God's presence and action in personal life and in the world. It is, in short, the experiential rediscovery, in faith, that Jesus is Lord by the power of the Spirit to the glory of the Father. Rooted in baptismal grace, "Baptism in the Holy Spirit" is essentially the experience of renewed communion with the divine Persons. It is an opening up, and unfolding of Trinitarian life in the baptized.

With such experience, however, it is not just emotions that are in play. The individual is illuminated with a new light of self-understanding. The experience transcends the emotional dimension, even when the emotional faculty of the individual can be deeply affected. Such an experience has unquestionably its rightful place and meaning for the faith-life of the Christian. It is possible that in this way the objectively valid and given elements of the faith - especially the election and call to grace and its confirmation in the Scarament of Baptism - become subjectively more obvious understandable.

The prayer for "Outpouring of the Spirit" is a prayer of personal surrender to Jesus Christ the Lord. It occurs most often in the context of the intercessory prayers of the members of a prayer community. Here the communio-dimension of God's Spirit comes to expression. He usually chooses the path of mediation through brothers and sisters in faith, that is, through the faith community of the Church.
Sorry for the long quotation. A few brief points:

1. The "outpouring of the Spirit" is a subjective experience of the objective grace/divine energies of the Mystery of Holy Baptism and Chrismation. As with any subjective experience, it can be easily misconstrued by the "subject" who fails to fully understand all that is experienced internally. This can lead to behaviors that are more reflective of the emotional state of the individual, and not necessarily correlated with the action of grace.

2. The "outpouring of the Spirit" is also an experience which clearly can engage the whole person, including the emotions. Difficulties arise due to the spiritual, personal or pyschological immaturity of the subject when the "outpouring" itself is reduced to the emotion experienced. This requires serious pastoral guidance on the part of the Church's pastors and more mature lay Christians. This doesn't mean being a "wet blanket", but rather aiding the individual to understand the nature of what was experienced and its place in the spiritual life.

3. The emotions experienced during the "outpuring of the Spirit" can be intense, considering the depth of the conversion one is undergoing personally (perhaps analogous to - or synonymous with the Eastern concept of Penthos at its earliest stages). I have seen the effect of this first-hand with a friend and fellow student who was taken to a Charismatic gathering while high on LSD, experinenced a major conversion, was completely delivered of his addiction, put on a plane to Steubenville and enrolled one week later in classes. He is now a father and husband and growing in prominence as a faithful theologian of the Church. God does indeed work wonders...

4. Early on in the conversion process, there is a natural tendency to seek out the consolation and cleansing felt during the initial "outpouring". Much like a "newborn" who seeks to be close to the breast of his or her mother, the desire to feel close to God is very powerful at this stage. I think God who cares for His "lost sheep" now returned (and that is DEFINITELY the case with many of our young people) permits a certain measure of consolation to continue as the process of healing takes place. But it is unhealthy on a number of levels to expect to stay here - to "pitch one's tent" as it were on the mountaintop. It becomes pastorally problematic when such individuals resist taking up the "cross" of discipleship, including facing times of spiritual and emotional dryness. This is why a good spiritual father as a guide early on for an individual is vital.

This is why I think the FOP's serve a purpose in many ways as a vehicle of initial conversion. It is not for everyone to be sure, and not everything that occurs can be said to be "of the Spirit"...some of it can be more of a "human" reaction than anything else. (Some of the incidents you mentioned out in California are a case in point. Cordes addresses the issue of being "slain in the Spirit" and chalks it up to an unhealthy and potentially damaging practice in the CCR. I've seen many things, but not quite to the level you mentioned.) But this also touches on one of the problematic issues I have had with the CCR, especially in its earliest stages, but even to a certain extent today - the temptation to perpetuate the emotional experience of the initial outpouring. The danger is obvious, and it can lead to an infantile spirituality and spiritual stagnation. This is one of the reasons why the pastoral wisdom of the Church has seen fit to help inject critical aspects of traditional Catholic spirituality into the CCR.

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Sorry for such a long post.
I'd continue to comment, but as the king of the lengthy postings eek , I will only add that I think your questions are important ones and will defer to others and their responses.

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Christ is Risen!

-uc
Indeed He is Risen!

Gordo
Posted By: ukrainiancatholic

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/16/06 12:01 PM

Gordo,

You're right-- it's Festival of Praise.

I'll keep this very brief because I have a plane to catch in a few hours.

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But this also touches on one of the problematic issues I have had with the CCR, especially in its earliest stages, but even to a certain extent today - the temptation to perpetuate the emotional experience of the initial outpouring. The danger is obvious, and it can lead to an infantile spirituality and spiritual stagnation. This is one of the reasons why the pastoral wisdom of the Church has seen fit to help inject critical aspects of traditional Catholic spirituality into the CCR.
You bring up an interesting point in regards to the pastoral wisdom of the Church. I've never thought of it that way.

I will respond further tonight to Gordo's post and for sure others, but for now, I gotta jet!

(man that sounds like an Alex joke :p :rolleyes: )

-uc
Posted By: francis

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/16/06 03:12 PM

I've read this thread with much interest.

I grew up Methodist, and it was through the evangelization efforts of charismatic Catholics that I converted to (Roman) Catholicism 14 years ago. Also, I attended Franciscan University for a while, and I live very close to (and often interact with) a charistmatic Catholic community. In general, I have nothing but good things to say about all the charismatic Catholics I know. I'm not charismatic, but I feel that in most cases, charismatic Catholics are some of the most devoted Christians I have known. I especially appreicate their zeal for evangelization, which I wish more Catholics - Western or Eastern - would share.

That being said, I do have some serious concerns with the charistmatic Catholic movement. They are:

1) Baptism in the Spirit. This has been discussed, but I really think that in practice, this is seen as either an "8th sacrament" and/or the entry to determine if someone is a "real Christian". No charismatic I know admits this openly, but it seems to be the practice. For example, if a Protestant has experienced a "baptism in the Spirit", then most charismatics I know see no need to try to evangelize them to become Catholic. This seems to me to a serious misunderstanding of the importance of the Sacraments in our spiritual lives.

2) The Gift of Prophecy. In the community I'm familiar with, there seems to be the habit of most members to "speak for God". What I mean is that they will be praying out loud, and they will speak for God (or Mary) in the first person. Usually what is said is so ordinary and even pedantic that it seems to me to diminish the idea of God speaking directly to people (which I do believe can happen). Also, in conversation charismatics often say things like "the Lord told me...", "Mary told me to tell you...". It just seems to me that they get an idea and decide to assign it to God.

3) Speaking in Tongues. I really believe that the modern practice of praying in tongues has no precedent in Scripture or Tradition. Scriptural references to speaking in tongues always include an interpreter and/or the ability of everyone to understand the language being spoken. This is not what happens in modern times. It seems to me that speaking in tongues today is just a psychological phenomenon with no spiritual basis.

4) Emotionalism. My experience with charismatics is that they place much emphasis on emotional feelings, especially in worship. I have had charismatic Catholics tell me that they "get more out of" charismatic prayer services than Mass! The fact that they think the purpose of worship is to "get", rather than "give", shows a fundamental misunderstanding of why we go to Mass. Also, the whole idea of judging the worth of a worship service based on one's emotional response to it seems to me to be misguided.

As I said at first, I have great admiration for the zeal and faithfulness of individual charismatics. I truly believe that they love the Lord and try to follow Him as they see best. I just think that much of their practices are outside of Catholic Tradition and potentially harmful to less mature Catholics.
Posted By: francis

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/16/06 03:22 PM

An added comment of little relevance: I really like the music of charismatics! smile I don't think they are appropriate to the Liturgy in most cases, but I really like to listen to praise and worship music at home and in the car. In fact, I'm right now listening to a praise song as I type this.
Posted By: Memo Rodriguez

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/16/06 03:25 PM

Hi,

Quote
I believe I should like to visit such a group. Have you any suggestions about how to find one in a given locale? (That process doesn't seem to be as straightforward as e.g. finding the nearest Ukrainian Catholic parish.)
You are right, it is not easy.

I have never been to Rhode Island, so I do not know any groups over there.

Perhaps the Renewal has some Diocesan-level contact information on your Diocese's web site?

You can ask them for directions to a good, orthodox, typical prayer group (or a few, if you'd like to experience the differences).

I also need to clarify that the Renewal has virtually no enforcement practices beyond the Diocesan level. That means that some Dioceses will implement measures in one way and others in another way, some will be quicker and in some others there will be delays.

For instance, in the Archdiocese of Los Angeles, we are still trying to institutionalize Deanry- and Regional-level organization in a coherent and efficient way. We are doing good progress, but this same step was taken in the Archdiocese of Guadalajara (Mexico) over 15 years ago.

Good luck.

Shalom,
Memo
Posted By: Jakub.

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/16/06 04:12 PM

Francis,

For your info...

http://www.motherofgod.org/

PAX

james
Posted By: Memo Rodriguez

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/16/06 04:14 PM

Hi,

Quote
I grew up Methodist, and it was through the evangelization efforts of charismatic Catholics that I converted to (Roman) Catholicism 14 years ago. Also, I attended Franciscan University for a while, and I live very close to (and often interact with) a charistmatic Catholic community. In general, I have nothing but good things to say about all the charismatic Catholics I know. I'm not charismatic, but I feel that in most cases, charismatic Catholics are some of the most devoted Christians I have known. I especially appreicate their zeal for evangelization, which I wish more Catholics - Western or Eastern - would share.
Thank you. You seem to be the achetypical success case for our movement.

We do not seek to "convert" everybody to a charismatic spirituality. We do not seek to augment our membership by keeping people in the Renewal movement.

Our model is to preach the Gospel to people who do not live by its values. Either because they have never heard of it, or because they have but have lapsed.

We preach the Gospel not only through words, but also by providing a spiritual experience by the attendance to regularly scheduled (usually weekly) prayer meetings.

Once people get acquainted with our spiritual "style", they undergo a brief, but intense formative moment called Fundamental Evangelization. It has other names in different places, we've tried to move away from "Initiation Retreat" because we failed to convey the relationship between that name and the Sacraments of Christian Initiation, the openness to the Grace of which is what we try to "Renew" in the people who take the Retreat, but it is still called that way. It is also called "Life in the Spirit Seminar", etc.

Usually, the experience of "Baptism in the Holy Spirit" happens during this time, but not always.

After that, people enter a Basic Formation process typically lasting a couple of years during which they learn Christian doctrine and morals and they also develop Christian habits of personal and communal prayer by continued attendance to the general prayer group and also perhaps to a smaller group, with the purpose of giving mutual support and encouragement.

At the end of the Basic Formation process, people are free to keep coming, but are strongly encouraged to become active members in the life of the parish community. A few are called to remain in the Renewal and fulfill leadership roles, but the vast majority are expected to "take off" and pursue their own vocation to service in the Church.

Needless to say, not all groups implement all this, but this is the model.

Quote
That being said, I do have some serious concerns with the charistmatic Catholic movement. They are:

1) Baptism in the Spirit. This has been discussed, but I really think that in practice, this is seen as either an "8th sacrament" and/or the entry to determine if someone is a "real Christian". No charismatic I know admits this openly, but it seems to be the practice. For example, if a Protestant has experienced a "baptism in the Spirit", then most charismatics I know see no need to try to evangelize them to become Catholic. This seems to me to a serious misunderstanding of the importance of the Sacraments in our spiritual lives.
I totally agree with your criticism. It is a real problem and we know it and we're working on it.

The only point I disagree with is "evangelize" Protestants to become Catholics. We don't do that. We preach the Gospel and we propose the Catholic Church and its sacramental life as the most perfect way to live that Gospel and to bring to maturity thist newly discovered relationship with the Risen Christ (in other words, holiness, theosis).

We do not force, however, people to leave their faith communities if they happen not to be Catholics.

We are very careful with superstitions, New Age stuff, etc. We do preach against these things. But we do not preach against Protestantism.

Perhaps that is why some charismatic groups fare well in Ecumenical affairs. Sometimes too well and there is confusion and/or indifferentism, yes, I acknowledge that. It is a fine line we need to walk there.

Quote
2) The Gift of Prophecy. In the community I'm familiar with, there seems to be the habit of most members to "speak for God". What I mean is that they will be praying out loud, and they will speak for God (or Mary) in the first person. Usually what is said is so ordinary and even pedantic that it seems to me to diminish the idea of God speaking directly to people (which I do believe can happen). Also, in conversation charismatics often say things like "the Lord told me...", "Mary told me to tell you...". It just seems to me that they get an idea and decide to assign it to God.
There are a number of angles to this issue.

First of all, I have to agree with you again. People talking like this are pedantic to the ears of people who do not use that kind of speech.

On the other hand, we need to consider it might be little more than that, a funny way to talk.

I am not sure how many of these people are actually claiming a direct, private revelation. As you said, that does happen, but it should be kind of rare.

When it does happen, though, a strict process of discernment should be in place to filter out things that go against Catholic doctrine or morals, things that do not edify the community in any way and any ideas of insubordination against the legitimate authority in the Church (Pastor and Bishop). These things cannot come from God.

On the other hand, expressions like "God told me He loves you". How to deny this? Or "Mary, the Mother of God and our Mother, is here with us tonight". Don't we proclaim this every time we confess we believe in the Communion of Saints?

Quote
3) Speaking in Tongues. I really believe that the modern practice of praying in tongues has no precedent in Scripture or Tradition. Scriptural references to speaking in tongues always include an interpreter and/or the ability of everyone to understand the language being spoken. This is not what happens in modern times. It seems to me that speaking in tongues today is just a psychological phenomenon with no spiritual basis.
Well, I believe many times it is as you say a psychological phenomenon with no spiritual basis.

But is this bad?

On the other hand, I think you are only considering the references to "Tongues" in Acts (the Apostles speaking once, each one listening to them in their own language, this we call Xenoglosia) and 1 Corinthians in which Paul mentions "Tongues" as a language we cannot directly interpret or translate (this we call Glosolalia, and it is different from Xenoglosia), exect when such interpretation comes itself as a charism of the Holy Spirit.

However, I think we are missing the quote from Romans in which Paul is deliberately abiguous about the Spirit and our spirit and goes on to say that when our words fail us, the Spirit puts in our hearts and tongues utterances we not always understand, but which God does.

I think this is supportive enough for non-interpreted Glosolalia

Quote
4) Emotionalism. My experience with charismatics is that they place much emphasis on emotional feelings, especially in worship. I have had charismatic Catholics tell me that they "get more out of" charismatic prayer services than Mass! The fact that they think the purpose of worship is to "get", rather than "give", shows a fundamental misunderstanding of why we go to Mass. Also, the whole idea of judging the worth of a worship service based on one's emotional response to it seems to me to be misguided.
And it is. This is utterly wrong.

However, the opposite is also wrong. There seems to be a cultural thing common to Northern and Eastern European cultures to play down the value and role of emotions.

Emotions have their place in our spiritual life along with rational thoughts and physical needs.

God gave us our emotions and everything God created is very good.

Being "emotional" is not bad, as the prevalent Western culture tries to suggest.

Allowing yourself to get carried away by your emotions is bad, but so it is to allow yourself to get carried away by your thoughts or your physical needs and inclinations.

Christianity is the ultimate balancing act between the person you are now and the person you are called to be. Focus too much on either one and you'll loose the other.

Quote
As I said at first, I have great admiration for the zeal and faithfulness of individual charismatics. I truly believe that they love the Lord and try to follow Him as they see best. I just think that much of their practices are outside of Catholic Tradition and potentially harmful to less mature Catholics.
Thank you.

And as I said before, that's why not all the Church is charismatic or even called to be charismatic.

The charismatic movement is just one more way within the Church. It will appeal to some, but not to all, just like every other movement or institute in the Church.

Shalom,
Memo
Posted By: francis

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/16/06 04:50 PM

Memo,

Thank you for your responses - they were very helpful.

Quote

The only point I disagree with is "evangelize" Protestants to become Catholics. We don't do that. We preach the Gospel and we propose the Catholic Church and its sacramental life as the most perfect way to live that Gospel and to bring to maturity thist newly discovered relationship with the Risen Christ (in other words, holiness, theosis).
Actually, what you describe doing is what I call "evangelizing" others to become Catholic. smile It would be prostelytizing to try to "force" others to become Catholic, but it is proper evangelization to "propose the Catholic Church and its sacramental life as the most perfect way to live that Gospel and to bring to maturity thist newly discovered relationship with the Risen Christ".

I have seen, however, in Catholic charismatic circles, efforts to make the Church seem like another "denomination" equal to others and to try at times to hide our Catholic identity (for example, calling priests "father", praying to the Blessed Theotokos, etc.).


Quote

On the other hand, we need to consider [prophetic talk] might be little more than that, a funny way to talk.
This is how I usually see it. When I feel convicted to do something, I usually say, "I am going to do this and pray the Lord's Will be done". A charismatic might have the same type of conviction as me and would say, "The Lord told me...".

In most cases, it's probably just a case of "You say tomato, I say...". But I do think there is a danger that one believes that all their own personal convictions and feelings are directly from the Lord, and when they don't work out (because perhaps they were just personal feelings and/or desires), the Lord is the one that looks bad.


Quote

Well, I believe many times [praying in tongues] is as you say a psychological phenomenon with no spiritual basis.

But is this bad?
Actually, I don't think it is usually. In fact, I usually argue with my more traditionalist friends that there is no harm done with most instances of praying in tongues. But I will say that the belief that this is a "special" form of prayer that makes one different from other believers can cause unneeded divisions.

(Oddly, I have noticed that sometimes if a non-charismatic is going to be a guest at a community event, they will strongly hint to everyone to NOT pray in tongues, so as to not "frighten off" the guest. If this is really from the Holy Spirit, why can they control it's use then?)

Quote

Emotions have their place in our spiritual life along with rational thoughts and physical needs.

God gave us our emotions and everything God created is very good.
Agreed. I have had strong emotional responses to spiritual events in my life, and they have strengthen my walk with the Lord. The key is balance, and it seems to me (from the outside) that perhaps the balance of some charismatics is off (but perhaps I'm just comparing it to the Western "John Wayne" ideal).
Posted By: Memo Rodriguez

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/16/06 08:28 PM

Hi again,

Just a couple of comments:

Quote
I have seen, however, in Catholic charismatic circles, efforts to make the Church seem like another "denomination" equal to others and to try at times to hide our Catholic identity (for example, calling priests "father", praying to the Blessed Theotokos, etc.).
Which begs the question again: Are we talking about Renewal groups, Covenant groups or even less mainstream groups?

Quote
If this is really from the Holy Spirit, why can they control it's use then?
Because the gifts of the Holy Spirit are not like demonic possessions. The gifts of the Holy Spirit work within the context of our freedom and natural skills and abilities (all of which are also gifts from God's Grace).

God is a God of order, and the order He established is that we have free will and we exercise the authority He gave us over the rest of His Creation.

God invites, suggests, recomments, commands, declares, pleads and even seduces.

But God doesn't force His children.

Shalom,
Memo
Posted By: francis

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/16/06 08:59 PM

Memo,

Quote

Which begs the question again: Are we talking about Renewal groups, Covenant groups or even less mainstream groups?
Could you please explain the difference between a "Renewal" and a "Covenant" group?

The group I am most familiar with was linked by Jakub above (the Mother of God community). I know that they are affiliated with the Archdiocese of Washington. I have heard them say that they are part of the "Charismatic Renewal movement", and also mention that they are a "Covenant" community. Which would they be, and again, what is the difference between the two?
Posted By: Memo Rodriguez

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/16/06 11:06 PM

Hi,

Quote
Could you please explain the difference between a "Renewal" and a "Covenant" group?
Well, the Catholic Charismatic Renewal is one movement and the Federation of Covenant Communities is another movement.

Therefore, your question would be analogous to ask about the difference between the Franciscans and the Benedictines.

They're both Religious Institutes, but they have their own charism and internal regulations and organization.

Likewise, the Renewal movement and the Covenant movement are distinct and different.

We're both charismatic in style, but we have different organizations and priorities.

Yes, Covenant groups tend to have a more "hard line" approach, so your experience is entirely consistent with what I would expect from them.

And I agree, their music is quite good.

The Renewal is "milder", if you take my meaning, we are much more concerned to keep our Catholic identity and to be faithful to our parish- and diocesan-level authorities.

We tend to get along better with other groups and movements and we tend to be better inserted into the pastoral life of the parish.

Covenant groups are generally more vibrant and loud, they are less uniform in their praxis, less attached to the parish (it is not uncommon for them to setup parallel infrastructures and eventually emmancipate from the parish and start operating as a semi-autonomous house of prayer).

Zenit has a good description of the Covenant movement:

Covenant

Zenit has not published the Renewal's file (I expect that to be done shortly), but they did have a nice article a few days ago:

Renewal

Quote
The group I am most familiar with was linked by Jakub above (the Mother of God community). I know that they are affiliated with the Archdiocese of Washington. I have heard them say that they are part of the "Charismatic Renewal movement", and also mention that they are a "Covenant" community. Which would they be, and again, what is the difference between the two?
Well, I guess it happens as with photocopies. People call them Xerox, even if they were not produced by a Xerox-brand machine.

It is not unheard of that other charismatic groups use the name of the Renewal to tag along our good name.

In some Dioceses, the renewal actually has the resources to "clarify" these situations, in some others, we just let it go unless there is a specific problem with the other group.

Shalom,
Memo
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/22/06 05:33 PM

A small TV suggestion:

I don't watch the daily mass on EWTN very often; but I did tune in for today's homily, to see whether the priest would mention anything about the procession of the Holy Spirit (the Gospel for today is John 15:26-16:4a).

He didn't mention the procession (well, as far as I could tell -- I think I missed the first minute or two); but nevertheless I found it to be a very good talk about the Holy Spirit. If any of you happen to be near a TV this evening from 6:15-6:30 (approximately), you might want to listen to it. (Or if you want to watch the entire liturgy, it starts at 6:00, EDT. It will also be shown again at midnight.)

God bless,
Peter.
Posted By: mike ross

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/23/06 02:17 AM

Hristos Voskress, ..... Boy oh boy, this thread is sounding like the 'holy rollers' that I was involved in in the '70's. This is one of the reasons I started serious questioning of the whole of Protestant, charismatic, anabaptist, reform, etc, etc theology.And, I was one of the worst, bashing the Orthodox/Catholic faith. I was drawn to the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Faith, and pray that I never leave. A man who went thru the same type of silliness, and such, who converted to Orthodoxy repeated a moniker to me, that those who have the ancient, Traditional faith, and get involved with this form of heterodoxy, are referred to as "roman protestants", or those who 'wish' to have what they preceive as the greener grass on the other side of the fence. Again, back to my opining, 'you don't know what you got till it's gone'...! Soooo true, S Bohom, mik
Posted By: DavidB, the Byzantine Catholic

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/24/06 01:31 AM

Could you please point me to this "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" and how it differs from actual Baptism.
Posted By: Memo Rodriguez

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/24/06 05:47 PM

Hi,

Quote
ould you please point me to this "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" and how it differs from actual Baptism.
Well, for starters, Baptism in the Holy Spirit is not a sacrament/mystery at all, so it is hard to answer your question beyond that.

Both are related, but not competing with each other, but rather, one pointing to the other.

The Catholic Charismatic Renewal of New Orleans has a nice, brief article about it:

Baptism in the Holy Spirit

I do not quite get what's up with the two columns, they seem to be identical, but the content is pretty good.


Here is another article by none other than Fr. Rainero Cantalamessa, the Papal Preacher:

Baptism in the Holy Spirit

In some cases, I disagree with Fr. Cantalamessa's choice of words, but it could be a translation thing.


I hope these resources help.

Shalom,
Memo
Posted By: DavidB, the Byzantine Catholic

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/25/06 02:01 AM

Quote
Originally posted by Memo Rodriguez:
Hi,

Quote
ould you please point me to this "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" and how it differs from actual Baptism.
Well, for starters, Baptism in the Holy Spirit is not a sacrament/mystery at all, so it is hard to answer your question beyond that.

Both are related, but not competing with each other, but rather, one pointing to the other.

The Catholic Charismatic Renewal of New Orleans has a nice, brief article about it:

Baptism in the Holy Spirit

I do not quite get what's up with the two columns, they seem to be identical, but the content is pretty good.


Here is another article by none other than Fr. Rainero Cantalamessa, the Papal Preacher:

Baptism in the Holy Spirit

In some cases, I disagree with Fr. Cantalamessa's choice of words, but it could be a translation thing.


I hope these resources help.

Shalom,
Memo
Sorry, I am asking for Biblical and cites from the Church, not from the Charismatic movement itself.

I know you keep saying that it is not a sacrament but from my reading of your posts on it so far it seems as if it isn't a sacrament that it is at least considered as equal to one.

Seems everyone in the "movement" has experienced this yet you say there is no way to know if someone has experienced it.

Seems to be a strange.


David, Byzantine Catholic and Carmelite pre-novice
Posted By: Memo Rodriguez

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/25/06 03:59 PM

Hi,

Quote
Sorry, I am asking for Biblical
Ok, in the charismatic movements, we find Biblical support for the experience of Baptism in the Holy Spirit in the following passages:

Matthew 3:11
Mark 1:8
Luke 1:15, 41, 67
Luke 3:16
John 1:33
Acts 1:5
Acts 2:1-4
Acts 4:31
Acts 8:17
Acts 9:17
Acts 11:15-16
Eph 5:18

I'd recommend, however, that in order to understand how and why we do so, you refer back to the two articles I sent earlier.

Quote
and cites from the Church, not from the Charismatic movement itself.
Well, the second URL was NOT from the movement itself.

It is from Fr. Rainero Cantalamessa, the Papal Preacher. That is, the man selected by Pope John Paul the Great to preach to him.

Fr. Rainero has been a long time friend and guide of the movement, but he is not a member himself (officially, no cleric can be an active member of the movement, because the movement is for lay people, although a good number of deacons, priests and even bishops are active participants in the movement and we are very grateful for their ministry and guidance).


Now, the Catechism of the Catholic Church does deal with the issue of Charisms, which are related to the experience of Baptism in the Holy Spirit, please read articles 798-801.

Quote
I know you keep saying that it is not a sacrament but from my reading of your posts on it so far it seems as if it isn't a sacrament that it is at least considered as equal to one.
Can I ask what makes you think so? Both articles I sent before explain rather clearly that we do not attribute to this experience any sacramental grace, but rather, we consider it a new and fresh "openness" to the sacramental graces we receive in our Sacraments of Christian Initiation, especially Baptism (hence the name connection).

Quote
Seems everyone in the "movement" has experienced this yet you say there is no way to know if someone has experienced it.

Seems to be a strange.
Well, in your Liturgy, you confess quite a few times the Awesome, ineffable, incomprehensible God.

Why does it sound so strange to you that we cannot proof an experience with God? Why does it sound so strange to you that we have a hard time even coming up with the right words to describe this experience?

Shalom,
Memo
Posted By: DavidB, the Byzantine Catholic

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/25/06 07:44 PM

Quote
Originally posted by Memo Rodriguez:
Hi,

Quote
Sorry, I am asking for Biblical
Ok, in the charismatic movements, we find Biblical support for the experience of Baptism in the Holy Spirit in the following passages:
Matthew 3:11 -- speaking of Baptism

Mark 1:8 -- speaking of the difference between the Baptism of St John the Baptist and Jesus, not that there are two baptisms, one with water and one "of the Holy Spirit"

I am going to stop there, as it seems the rest are taken out of context just as these first two are.

Quote

Now, the Catechism of the Catholic Church does deal with the issue of Charisms, which are related to the experience of Baptism in the Holy Spirit, please read articles 798-801.
Strange, just finished a class on the Teachings of the Catholic Church were the only text book was the Catechism of the Catholic Church and at no time in the class did the professor mention anything about "Baptism of the Holy Spirit" nor is it mentioned in the CCC anywhere.

Quote

Quote
I know you keep saying that it is not a sacrament but from my reading of your posts on it so far it seems as if it isn't a sacrament that it is at least considered as equal to one.
Can I ask what makes you think so? Both articles I sent before explain rather clearly that we do not attribute to this experience any sacramental grace, but rather, we consider it a new and fresh "openness" to the sacramental graces we receive in our Sacraments of Christian Initiation, especially Baptism (hence the name connection).
I am only going by what you and other supporters of the "movement" are saying. It appears that this "Baptism" is treated as something more than it is.

In reality, it creates two classes of Christians. Those who have not had this "Baptism" and those who have but then you claim that you can not know who has had it yet you do talk about those who have had it.

Quote

Quote
Seems everyone in the "movement" has experienced this yet you say there is no way to know if someone has experienced it.

Seems to be a strange.
Well, in your Liturgy, you confess quite a few times the Awesome, ineffable, incomprehensible God.

Why does it sound so strange to you that we cannot proof an experience with God? Why does it sound so strange to you that we have a hard time even coming up with the right words to describe this experience?
Comparing apples to oranges here. The existance of God and our experience with Him is not the same as some quasi-sacramental "Baptism of the Holy Spirit."

Seems more about emotions and feelings than it does about anything Biblical.
Posted By: ebed melech

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/26/06 04:31 PM

Quote
Originally posted by DavidB, the Byzantine Catholic:
Comparing apples to oranges here. The existance of God and our experience with Him is not the same as some quasi-sacramental "Baptism of the Holy Spirit." Seems more about emotions and feelings than it does about anything Biblical.
First of all, David, you are the one talking about the "quasi-sacramental" nature of the "Baptism in the Holy Spirit". Perhaps early on in the CCR, that Protestant emphasis may have crept in, but I find nothing in any of the documents from the CCR or any official correspondence from Rome - or in the writings of Cordes and others that would assert such a thing. You state a position that is not part of the CCR movement and then ask others to defend why it is part of the CCR movement. Hardly seems fair, don't you think?

If anything, what is clear is that, as Memo has stated, the experience of the BHS (or in Europe, the "Outpouring of the Holy Spirit") is an experience of conversion - a greater realization of the sacramental grace given in Holy Baptism. It is perhaps somewhat reminiscent of the desert father who, when asked by a disciple what he must do to grow spiritually, he raised his hands in the air and his fingers became like 10 flames and said "You must become fire!"

I don't intend to go round and round with you on this. Clearly you have your biases against the CCR based on your experience. No official Church teaching imposes a different view, although certainly the Church has taken a different pastoral tact than you regarding the movement. If you plan to do any pastoral work in the church, I would recommend that you get Cordes' book. You can purchase it used on Amazon for less than $5, I believe...or any number of different books by Killian McDonnell, OSB who has done extensive research on the patristic sources. Better to dedicate some time to understand a movement you might encounter in a future pastoral leadership role than to let your limited experience color your views.

Again, I say this as one who is no longer "in the movement".

Regarding the purpose of this thread, I would favor a charismatic renewal within the Byzantine Catholic Church, but one that emphasizes the need for personal and ongoing conversion and evangelization while aligned better with our rich spiritual and ecclesial traditions.

Finis.
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/26/06 04:44 PM

Dear David,

The charismatic renewal is something that is really "ultra vires" the Eastern Churches and it is often looked upon with suspicion by Eastern hierarchs as an import of "Protestant culture."

And Eastern Christianity gives the Holy Spirit such an explicit and overt role in its liturgical and sacramental actions so as to make the positive aims of the renewal practically redundant when applied to the Christian East.

As for speaking in tongues/glossolalia, prophecies and the like, I've witnessed these at charismatic meetings but whether they are legitimate or not is something the Latin Church doesn't investigate as it would the case of saints' miracles, for example.

Linguistic anthropologists studying glossolalia have sometimes found people are speaking languages that have died out and use this to support their views of a "mass human consciousness" and the like.

Tongues in the early Church were designed to help spread the Gospel and their impact was that unlettered apostles could speak in the languages of visitors to Jerusalem etc.

What the role of "tongues" today could be is something that is unknown. We learn languages the old-fashioned way. And much of what one hears by way of "tongues" at meetings is simply garbled gibberish. The real danger is when groups require you to speak in tongues as a "proof" that you really have been "baptised in the Spirit."

The Eastern Churches see this as Theosis and it is up to the Spirit to determine the time when He will inhabit a soul with His special charismatic gifts. Ascesis is central to this process - and, quite frankly, where is ascesis in the charismatic renewal? It resembles, too much, a "feel good" spirituality and almost a presumption that one "has the Holy Spirit" due to a kind of mediumistic experience.

Again, that is the Latin Church's concern, not ours.

The Eastern Churches are focused on Theosis as a process - and this is divinization in Christ by means of the Holy Spirit to the glory of God the Father.

Praise the Lord!

Alex
Posted By: Isaac

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/26/06 04:54 PM

Permit me to intrude with a personal experience I had with the Catholic Charismatic Renewal movement.

About two years ago I attended a Friday evening 'Marian Mass' with one of my sisters who is RC. At the conclusion of the mass, the priest invited individuals to come forward and receive "the blessing of the Holy Spirit." Not knowing what I was in for, I went forward with my infant niece (and godchild) in my arms.

A row (not a line) was formed between the sanctuary and the first row of pews. The priest started dispensing blessings at one end of the row, working his way toward me (I was in roughly the middle of the row). As he went, Fr. Howie blessed the individuals before him verbally, made the sign of the cross, and then thumped them on the forehead with the palm of his hand. At that point the individuals to a person fell backwards into the waiting arms of people positioned behind them (apparently for just that purpose) and were lowered to the floor where they lay prone for a few minutes - most laid quietly with eyes closed, but a few were 'twitching' (for lack of a better term).

When Fr. reached me, he indicated I should hand my niece off to the person next to me (the one still standing), which I did. He blessed me, crossed me, and them 'thumped' my forehead with his palm. Apparently, he didn't thump hard enough, because I didn't fall over. The priest looked perplexed at this development and promptly repeated the entire process, giving me a much more forceful 'thumping' the second time around. Still not collapsing, Fr. muttered something under his breath and moved on to the person next to me, from whom I quickly recovered my niece before that individual joined the others on the floor.

Being the only individual who wasnít 'slain in the spirit' (which I was subsequently told is what happened to the others) didn't bother me in the least. What did bother me were the looks I received from those present on my way back to my seat. Make of this what you will, but it was the first and only Charismatic Catholic mass I have attended, and if invited again in the future, I would kindly decline (or at least don protective headgear prior to being 'blessed').

~Isaac
Posted By: ebed melech

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/26/06 05:30 PM

Quote
Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
Again, that is the Latin Church's concern, not ours. The Eastern Churches are focused on Theosis as a process - and this is divinization in Christ by means of the Holy Spirit to the glory of God the Father.

Praise the Lord!

Alex
AMEN! This is precisely why I wrote earlier that I believe that the Christian East fulfills many of the fundamental aspirations of the CCR.

Isaac,

I had to chuckle about your experience. Cordes writes about this phenomenon of being "slain in the Spirit" and is quite (rightfully so) critical. There were and are aspects of the CCR - especially early on - that were and are somewhat childish. I've known people that claimed to be pushed and I have also known others that believed that "being slain" was a critical visible manifestation of the Spirit's power and work...a way to determine if one were fully abandoned to the movement of the Holy Spirit at that moment.

Gimme a break.

IMHO, the faster the renewal puts away these childish things, the better off it will be.

God bless,

Gordo
Posted By: Memo Rodriguez

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/26/06 06:35 PM

Hi,

Quote
This is precisely why I wrote earlier that I believe that the Christian East fulfills many of the fundamental aspirations of the CCR.
And I agree. However, I think there should be Western ways to fulfill these aspirations as well.

Quote
I had to chuckle about your experience. Cordes writes about this phenomenon of being "slain in the Spirit" and is quite (rightfully so) critical.
And I also agree. The whole thing of being "slain in the Spirit" seems bogus to me.

A deep prayer experience oftentimes brings peace to your soul, which permeates to your mind and body.

A peaceful body, just released of tension or anxiety is likely to fall asleep, and it happens. It has happened to me. In fact, if I needed to pinpoint an event to which I could attach the experience of "Baptism in the Holy Spirit" in my spiritual life, it would be that one time when I fell asleep during adoration.

However, I understand very well that I fell asleep, I was not "slain in the Spirit".

Quote
There were and are aspects of the CCR - especially early on - that were and are somewhat childish. I've known people that claimed to be pushed and I have also known others that believed that "being slain" was a critical visible manifestation of the Spirit's power and work...a way to determine if one were fully abandoned to the movement of the Holy Spirit at that moment.

Gimme a break.

IMHO, the faster the renewal puts away these childish things, the better off it will be.
I disagree here.

Childish things are wrong for grown-ups, but entirely appropriate for children.

There will always be those who are just becoming familiar with God and His Love and His Salvation Plan for us.

This is the audience of the Renewal, so we do need some childish things for them.

Now, it is very important not to confuse childish with stupid. Children are childish, but most of them are NOT stupid.

Shalom,
Memo
Posted By: ebed melech

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/26/06 06:44 PM

Memo,

But my reference was to "being slain in the Spirit", which you agreed was bogus. That was the particular example of "childishness" I was referring to.

There have been others, of course....

Gordo
Posted By: Memo Rodriguez

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/26/06 07:03 PM

Hi,

Quote
Permit me to intrude with a personal experience I had with the Catholic Charismatic Renewal movement.
Not at all unlike some of my own experiences, and I am a member of the Renewal movement.

Shalom,
Memo
Posted By: Laka Ya Rabb

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/27/06 01:58 AM

The Charismatic Renewal has offered the Latin Church a lot and has overall been positive. It's just like any movement and there are many in the Church.

The East could use a 'renewal' in so far as it only means embracing its traditions.

A Charismatic renewal in the East doesn't make sense. The Charismatic renewal doesn't have anything to offer the Eastern Churches. When the East recovers her traditions, what could the Charismatic Renewal offer?

I agree with OrthodoxCatholic's post. This says it all:

Quote
And Eastern Christianity gives the Holy Spirit such an explicit and overt role in its liturgical and sacramental actions so as to make the positive aims of the renewal practically redundant when applied to the Christian East.
Posted By: Father Anthony

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/27/06 02:02 AM

Quote
Originally posted by Laka Ya Rabb:
The Charismatic Renewal has offered the Latin Church a lot and has overall been positive. It's just like any movement and there are many in the Church.

The East could use a 'renewal' in so far as it only means embracing its traditions.

A Charismatic renewal in the East doesn't make sense. The Charismatic renewal doesn't have anything to offer the Eastern Churches. When the East recovers her traditions, what could the Charismatic Renewal offer?

I agree with OrthodoxCatholic's post. This says it all:

Quote
And Eastern Christianity gives the Holy Spirit such an explicit and overt role in its liturgical and sacramental actions so as to make the positive aims of the renewal practically redundant when applied to the Christian East.
Christ is Risen!

THANK YOU! I agree with you 100%.

In the Risen Christ,
Father Anthony+
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/27/06 02:23 AM

Bless, Father!

And I agree with the above too!! smile

Cheers,

Alex
Posted By: ebed melech

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/27/06 05:22 AM

Quote
Originally posted by Laka Ya Rabb:
A Charismatic renewal in the East doesn't make sense. The Charismatic renewal doesn't have anything to offer the Eastern Churches. When the East recovers her traditions, what could the Charismatic Renewal offer?
It depends on how you define a "charismatic renewal". If you mean a renewal of the charisms received in Holy Baptism and Chrismation, than I disagree. I think the Church is always in need of just such a renewal in every age. Pentecost was meant for then and now and always in the church.

If by renewal you mean adopting the forms, expressions and character of the contemporary Latin CCR, then I agree with you.

The essence of the Church as ecclesia - an assembly of the different orders gathered to hear the Word of God and celebrate the Eucharist - is fundamentally "charismatic", without denying any of its hierarchical principles. To me, this is foundational to Eastern Christian ecclesiology. It also highlights the importance of the synergy of the charisms in Divine Worship.

The liturgy thus gives us the pattern of how those charisms can and should be exercised in the church's mission to the world. We need to continue to find ways to live the charisms at the altar of our homes and the marketplace.

Gordo
Posted By: Laka Ya Rabb

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/29/06 11:12 PM

Father Anthony,

Truly He is Risen!
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/30/06 02:42 PM

Dera Gordo,

For the Eastern Church, the fifty days prior to Pentecost is truly a great "awaiting" for the blessing of the Holy Spirit and a great renewal of our awareness of His role in the Church!

I like to think of the "kneeling prayers" as a way the Church protects us, in advance, from falling down too hard on the floor in the event that the Spirit overwhelms those whom He will!

Alex
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 06/03/06 03:24 PM

Quote
As he went, Fr. Howie blessed the individuals before him verbally, made the sign of the cross, and then thumped them on the forehead with the palm of his hand. At that point the individuals to a person fell backwards into the waiting arms of people positioned behind them ...
Dear Isaac,

I, too, had to chuckle a little at the sheer outrageousness of Fr. Howie actions. The idea of thumping people and expecting them to then fall down is bad enough; but for him to repeat the process on you after it "failed" the first time is really the clincher -- I don't know what comment I can really make about it except: "Whoa."

I wonder how many other good people have been turned away from the CCR by this same priest.

I also have encountered some bad apples within the charismatic movement (not of the same sort as you described, but I won't go into that now). But this was after I had been involved for a few years, so it didn't turn me off from the whole movement.

God bless,
Peter.
Posted By: Memo Rodriguez

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 06/15/06 03:16 PM

Hi,

I do not want to re-start this discussion, but here is a recent interview with Fr. Rainero Cantalamessa, Preacher to the Pontifical Household.

Father Cantalamessa on Charismatic Renewal

Shalom,
Memo
Posted By: ebed melech

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 06/15/06 07:36 PM

Memo,

Thank you for posting this! This is my favorite part of the interview:

Quote
Q: Given the many and diverse ecclesial movements, what is the special contribution that Catholic Charismatic Renewal can make to the Church?

Father Cantalamessa: In a certain sense, they are very humble and discreet. We have no power, or great structures or founders, but Catholic Charismatic Renewal is the movement that, for example, among all the ecclesial movements, is the most interested in theology. In Charismatic Renewal there is, in fact, a question on the Holy Spirit.

In fact, all the important treatises of theologians on the Holy Spirit speak of the Renewal because it is not simply one more spirituality among others, but it is a new rising of an original Christianity which was that of the apostles.

And I think that its objective is not so much to relate to a particular sector as it to animate the Church. The Renewal should not lead to the establishment of groups, churches. How terrible it would be if it was so! It should be, as Cardinal Leo Jozef Suenens said, a current of grace that is lost in the mass of the Church.
Amen!

Gordo
Posted By: Apotheoun

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 06/15/06 08:12 PM

I am grateful to the charismatic movement for at least one thing, because it was partially in response to the Protestant Pentecostal theology underlying the charismatic movement, along with the poor liturgy associated with it at the school I was attending, that finally made me leave the Roman Rite and become Byzantine.
Posted By: ebed melech

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 06/15/06 08:29 PM

Actually, Todd, if you study the history of the school you attended, you would realize that the whole reason it is as full a Catholic institution as it is today - and a source of real renewal in the Church - is because of its conversion through the renewal in the 70's and affiliation with it in the 80's and 90's.

I stand by my contention that the CCR in its "purest form" can lead one to an authentic kerygmatic experience of Catholicism. It has to be allowed to mature into a more full expression of Catholic life (especially Catholic sacramental life), which has happened on campus.
Posted By: byzanTN

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 06/15/06 08:36 PM

I remember hearing a set of tapes of a retreat given by Archbishop Sheen some years ago. He stated that the charismatic movement was a threat to the Church. I am going to have to dig those tapes out and try to find that again. But I agree with his statement. The charismatic movement is, to me, thinly veiled protestantism. I wonder when "the spirit" is going to lead these neo-pentecostals out of the Church? It seems to me that little things like doctrine and apostolic tradition don't matter to charismatics. There is a bond, I have noticed, among local charismatics both Catholic and Pentecostal. You can be any denomination and it really doesn't matter what the Catholic Church teaches, as long as you experience the appropriate feelings. I view this as incredibly dangerous. My charismatic friends think I am un-enlightened and haven't experienced the gifts of "the spirit" yet. I tell them they can keep their "spirit," as far as I am concerned. I don't need educating to recognize false religion. It's pretty obvious. It is my opinion that the Charismatic Movement is the Arianism of our age, in that many of the hierarchy along with laity, are taken in by it.
Posted By: ebed melech

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 06/15/06 08:55 PM

Not as obvious as you think. Cantalamessa is no fool and I think his assessment is right on. Not every group or manifestation that occurs at a prayer meeting is authentically part of the CCR movement. I certainly respect the late Archbishop, but keep in mind he was speaking during the early part of the movement when it was just getting its bearings.

I also think that your observations re: the "feelings" standard is really more of an assumption on your part.

And yes - so dangerous that places like Franciscan University and EWTN emerged from within the CCR movement?

We should neither exaggerate nor diminish the CCR movement's virtues and vices. It poses no danger to the faithful with sufficient pastoral guidance. Your comparison to Arianism is positively absurd.
Posted By: byzanTN

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 06/15/06 11:36 PM

Arianism was the popular heresy of its day, so perhaps the charismatic movement is the equivalent in our touchy-feely, oprah-ized culture. Who knows? I suspect we will never agree on this. What the charismatic movement has to offer is not for me, and is not part of how I believe and worship. A fellow musician came back from a highly emotional retreat in the mountains and said she had seen the spirit. I asked if that spirit was brown, fuzzy, and looked anything like a bear. Charismatics have little sense of humor, apparently. eek However, it seems to me that when the movement is criticized, the response is along the lines of, "oh no, we're not like that. Some are, but we are the pure charismatics. You just aren't one of the illuminated ones, so you don't understand." I wish you well with that movement, but as I said, it's not for me.
Posted By: Laka Ya Rabb

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 06/16/06 12:14 AM

Ebed,

As a student at Franciscan, I have to say that when I was not going attending a Melkite church, I went to Mass off campus and on Sundays I drove out of state for Mass.

Now, I am not as much an outspoken critic of the CCR at school, but I will tell you that I am uncomfortable with the fact that FUS is only interested in pushing it and no other spirituality.

The Byzantines haved one Divine Liturgy once a semester. Very sad considering there are several Byzantine Churches close by. Also, the Archeparchy is very close, why so little exposure?


Everything at FUS (with the exception of some faculty) revolves around the CCR. FOP's, households, Adoration, Mass, the Rosary, etc. You can't get a way from it.

Not only that, but several times a year they have Mass in the Gymnasium. The main Chapel is aethestically unpleaseing and the rock and roll worship circus performs at every Mass.

The only saving grace is that students can go to the Port and pray in silence in front of a the Blessed Sacrament (well and the Byzantine Liturgy once a semester).


But let's get things straight, I am NOT complaning about the faculty or the Catholic environment (which are both outstanding in my opinion). Besides that, I have met some wonderful Catholics there (like Apotheoun).
Posted By: ebed melech

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 06/16/06 01:32 AM

Quote
Originally posted by byzanTN:
Arianism was the popular heresy of its day, so perhaps the charismatic movement is the equivalent in our touchy-feely, oprah-ized culture. Who knows? I suspect we will never agree on this.
Your logic is...astounding. Any authoritative sources to back up your wild assertions? I can name quite a few in favor of the CCR.

No - we will never agree on this. But I will say that I am an ex-member of the CCR movement for a reason. It is not because I believe that it is heretical or Satanic.

Quote
What the charismatic movement has to offer is not for me, and is not part of how I believe and worship.
This comes a little bit closer to my position on the matter.

Quote
A fellow musician came back from a highly emotional retreat in the mountains and said she had seen the spirit. I asked if that spirit was brown, fuzzy, and looked anything like a bear. Charismatics have little sense of humor, apparently. eek
Or...maybe they don't appreciate being belittled. What exactly did you hope to accomplish with that statement? Did you expect to help catechize your friend on the patristic caution regarding seeking after visions? I doubt she would listen to anything you offer after that.

Quote
However, it seems to me that when the movement is criticized, the response is along the lines of, "oh no, we're not like that. Some are, but we are the pure charismatics. You just aren't one of the illuminated ones, so you don't understand."
To whom are you referring? Has anyone here claimed to be a "pure charismatic"? If so, I have not seen it. Does that mean that anyone who doesn't fit your wild version of what a charismatic is cannot now disagree with your charicature because they will be belittled as one of those arrogant "pure charismatics"? That's very neat.

I just disagree with people who either patronize or poke fun at others, many of whom have (recently) experienced a form of conversion in their life. Hardly an authentic Byzantine witness, much less a Christian one. And note, I say that as a recovering "Charismatics are inferior-aholic". I try not to set myself up as judge and jury over the experience of others in the movement anymore, and I would counsel you in fraternal charity to do the same. In fact, I have taken a posture of affirming all that is good within the movement - and there is much that is good...often in the hope of leading them to a greater good, which I would assert is the Eastern Christian pneumatological tradition.

Quote
I wish you well with that movement, but as I said, it's not for me.
Really? That's surpising, considering your positions. No - you really don't wish me well in that movement, which is fine because I am not IN that movement any longer.
Posted By: ebed melech

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 06/16/06 01:47 AM

Laka,

I think you offer a legitimate complaint. I will say to you that the pressure to be charismatic was FAR WORSE when I attended FUS many years ago. Actually, that was at the time when the Covenant Community had a decisive influence, with its advocates in position of real power. I was around when the community thing basically "fell apart" due to abuses of power.

They were just starting to rediscover the traditional forms of Catholic worship when I left.

Some things are defined as "charismatic", though, that may only be "youthful". Are you making that distinction?

And on my visits there, they seem to be offering a variety of "spiritualities" on campus, not just charismatic.

But like you, I found a refuge in the Eastern Churches through the influence of an Eastern monk and never desired to look back. It took me quite a few years to figure out that I did not need to look down on the movement that I had been raised in in order to be faithful to Tradition.

My sense is that if you are a positive witness to the charismatics of the Eastern tradition, you may actually plant some helpful seeds that will bear much fruit later on.

God bless,

Gordo
Posted By: byzanTN

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 06/16/06 02:00 AM

I have never been to FUS, and have heard good things about it, at least in reference to academics. A priest friend of mine visited there some years ago, and returned with stories about bodies lying on the floor for hours, etc. He thought the charismatics there were a bit over the edge. However, it is good to hear that some of the excesses are being corrected over time. As a Byzantine Christian, I just have to view all that as a Latin Rite phenomenon that has little relevance to the East. My own experience with charismatics locally, is that they are quite different from mainstream Catholics, and essentially Protestant and Pentecostal in practice. Perhaps this isn't true in other areas, but this is what I see here.
Posted By: Laka Ya Rabb

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 06/16/06 02:29 AM

Quote
I think you offer a legitimate complaint. I will say to you that the pressure to be charismatic was FAR WORSE when I attended FUS many years ago. Actually, that was at the time when the Covenant Community had a decisive influence, with its advocates in position of real power. I was around when the community thing basically "fell apart" due to abuses of power.

They were just starting to rediscover the traditional forms of Catholic worship when I left.
I can believe that. I think that Bishop Conlon has had a little bit to do with that.

As, the University has just recently hired a music teacher that offers ogan classes. He also plays organ once a month at the Organ Mass. He organized a Schola as well.

Unfortunatly, 'those types' of Masses are not offered on Sunday.


Quote
Some things are defined as "charismatic", though, that may only be "youthful". Are you making that distinction?
I have always been uncomfortable with this subject. Growing up, I attended churches that used the piano and such, with contemporary music.

It wasn't unitl I attended a Church deeply invovled in the Charismatic movement that I even encountered 'youthful worship'. It has continued to be my experience. So naturally, I don't make the distinction becuase I have never encountered a real life parish where that distinction existed.


Quote
And on my visits there, they seem to be offering a variety of "spiritualities" on campus, not just charismatic.
You have your experiences, not much I can say about that.

As for my experience, I was shocked that the school was so charismatic. I was not expecting that. It's all my fault though because I didn't visit ths school first.

I would say that in retrospect, Christendom would have been a better chose for my spirituality at the time I got into FUS. Now of course, it really makes no difference. I have favorite teachers and my spirituality has matured and moved in a differnt direction. I am quite happy now to be at FUS.

Quote
But like you, I found a refuge in the Eastern Churches through the influence of an Eastern monk and never desired to look back. It took me quite a few years to figure out that I did not need to look down on the movement that I had been raised in in order to be faithful to Tradition.

My sense is that if you are a positive witness to the charismatics of the Eastern tradition, you may actually plant some helpful seeds that will bear much fruit later on.
I am not nit-picking, but I do want to clarify here. I didn't turn to the East for refuge. It was very hard actually. There were many things I was attached too. Rather, I immersed myself in the East and discerned about the numerous things that came along with it. I opende myself up to the East.

It was very difficult actually.

I love the whole church. Now, personally, I didn't have a problem with many things in the West. I like the NAB, the Novus Ordo and even the use of more contemporary instumentation and hymns and music in the Mass.

For me, I just found my spiritual home in the East. The Liturgy at the Melkite Church was ( and remains) beyond words. For the first time the Liturgy was my life. It WAS who I was. I felt myself (and still fell myself) inexplicably drawn to Christ.

For the first time, the yearnings fo Christ, the flame of the Spirit, and the Love of the Father I felt at a few moments in the Mass, I now felt in the Liturgy from the moment I entered the Church until I left. Even during the week I felt this.

Shortly afterwards, I felt myself looking forward (for the first time) to attending the Eucharistic celebration. I learned so much so very quickly.

Now, to be fair, I feel this all whenever I attend ANY Eucharistic celebration now. But what sustains me in aesthetics and in personal spirituality is the Divine Liturgy, the Eastern Church's traditions, even above the most beautiful Tridentine or Novus Ordo or Anglican Use Mass in the most beautiful Church.

What can I say, I love the Eastern Chruch, her traditions and her liturgy. It's just my spiritual home. i don't know what else to say about it or how to explain it.

In regards to the CCR, I just don't have any thing to say or do. My spirituality has much growning in the Eastern tradition and the CCR has nothing for me. I once was immersed in the CCR and for me, I see it as less than what I am working towards. It has nothing to offer my spirituality.

I don't know. Either way, I hardly see what else I could say about the CCR.
smile
Posted By: ebed melech

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 06/16/06 02:51 AM

Quote
Originally posted by byzanTN:
I have never been to FUS, and have heard good things about it, at least in reference to academics. A priest friend of mine visited there some years ago, and returned with stories about bodies lying on the floor for hours, etc. He thought the charismatics there were a bit over the edge. However, it is good to hear that some of the excesses are being corrected over time. As a Byzantine Christian, I just have to view all that as a Latin Rite phenomenon that has little relevance to the East. My own experience with charismatics locally, is that they are quite different from mainstream Catholics, and essentially Protestant and Pentecostal in practice. Perhaps this isn't true in other areas, but this is what I see here.
byzanTN,

I think that is a balanced approach. Charismatic experiences for anyone not familiar with them can be somewhat jarring the first time they are witnessed - even the 4th and 5th time! Not everything related to the CCR is irrelevant to the East, though. I like to recommend to charismatic friends that they read St. Simeon the New Theologian, St. Macarius and St. Ephrem. Many are wowed by the beauty of the theology that speaks volumes to the heart of a Catholic charismatic. They can identify with the teaching. My experience was somewhat similar. As I started to read Orthodox authors I felt very much that these men were writing what I had felt in my heart for years - but could not express. There was a fundamental identification, especially given the emphasis on experience within the East and the CCR.

I apologize for my harshness of tone with you before. Part of my frustration too is that, despite the weaknesses of the CCR movement, they are far more active than we are in terms of mission and evangelization...and they are far more numerous! Whatever ones assessment may be with the weakness of their theology in some areas, they have done much with very little!

Gordo
Posted By: byzanTN

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 06/16/06 02:58 AM

Quote
I apologize for my harshness of tone with you before. Part of my frustration too is that, despite the weaknesses of the CCR movement, they are far more active than we are in terms of mission and evangelization...and they are far more numerous! Whatever ones assessment may be with the weakness of their theology in some areas, they have done much with very little!

Gordo
No apologies are necessary. I find it strange that we in the east possess the "Old Time Religion" that many profess to seek. Yet, we don't do a good job of sharing it or spreading it to others. This is something I don't understand.
Posted By: ebed melech

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 06/16/06 03:03 AM

Quote
Originally posted by Laka Ya Rabb:
I am not nit-picking, but I do want to clarify here. I didn't turn to the East for refuge. It was very hard actually. There were many things I was attached too. Rather, I immersed myself in the East and discerned about the numerous things that came along with it. I opende myself up to the East.
Not nit-picking at all - I think that that is a fair distinction. I would agree too, since my reasons for entering the East were not to "get away" from things in the West.

As for the other spiritualities, it was not so much my "experience" as what I saw posted all over campus - activities involving Rosaries, Novenas, Exposition, Franciscan and Carmelite spirituality, the works of mercy, etc etc. All of these things indicated to me a shift to more traditional Latin forms of spirituality.

Sunday Mass at FUS will always be a charismatic Sunday Mass, unless it is the early one, I believe. I drove through recently and attended a weekly Mass and it was great to see so many young adults worshipping. It was not "charismatic" in the way that label implies, but it was "youthful" and "respectful". the lyrics were also directed at God, not at the congregation where we sing about ourselves, as so often is the case with the omnipresent Blather...I mean "Gather Hymnals". wink :p biggrin
Posted By: byzanTN

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 06/16/06 03:17 AM

Ah, but then there's "Gather Comprehensive" which is even more of the songs you will love to hate. I recently saw something called "Breaking Bread" which might possibly be even worse. frown
Posted By: Apotheoun

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 06/16/06 03:31 AM

Quote
Originally posted by ebed melech:
Actually, Todd, if you study the history of the school you attended, you would realize that the whole reason it is as full a Catholic institution as it is today - and a source of real renewal in the Church - is because of its conversion through the renewal in the 70's and affiliation with it in the 80's and 90's.

I stand by my contention that the CCR in its "purest form" can lead one to an authentic kerygmatic experience of Catholicism. It has to be allowed to mature into a more full expression of Catholic life (especially Catholic sacramental life), which has happened on campus.
Liturgically the school I attended is not all that Catholic, because it still has not even fully implemented Redemptionis Sacramentum or the older document Ecclesiae de Mysterio. Nevertheless you are correct, because as far as theology is concerned it is more orthodox than most Catholic institutions in the United States, as long as you avoid the professors influenced by the charismatic movement.

That being said, my own theology had been shifting toward the East for several years before I started studying there, and so my change of ritual Churches was not based solely upon the deficient liturgies on campus, but I do admit that the poor nature of liturgy on campus sped up my shift to the Byzantine Church. So again, I am grateful to the charismatic movement on campus for pushing me toward the Byzantine Church, because after attending the divine liturgy for two years at a Byzantine parish, I came to realize that I was not only theologically Eastern, but am also liturgically Eastern.
Posted By: Apotheoun

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 06/16/06 03:48 AM

Quote
Originally posted by Laka Ya Rabb:
[. . .]

For me, I just found my spiritual home in the East. The Liturgy at the Melkite Church was ( and remains) beyond words. For the first time the Liturgy was my life. It WAS who I was. I felt myself (and still fell myself) inexplicably drawn to Christ.

For the first time, the yearnings fo Christ, the flame of the Spirit, and the Love of the Father I felt at a few moments in the Mass, I now felt in the Liturgy from the moment I entered the Church until I left. Even during the week I felt this.

Shortly afterwards, I felt myself looking forward (for the first time) to attending the Eucharistic celebration. I learned so much so very quickly.

[. . .]

FUS has -- unintentionally -- helped many students to become Byzantine Catholic, and on occasion even Eastern Orthodox.

I met many great people there, including Chelsea (Laka) and all the others from the Trinity East dorm, who all became a part of my journey to the East. I had many wonderful professors there as well, who encouraged me to investigate matters fully and embrace the Byzantine spiritual, liturgical, and doctrinal tradition. My experience at the school was a good one.

It is interesting to note that when I arrived at the school I was in many ways open to the charismatic movement, but that after attending there for two and a half years, I came away from the school opposed to it -- mainly on theological grounds. But then my theology is very different now than it was four years ago.
Posted By: ebed melech

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 06/16/06 04:04 AM

Quote
Originally posted by Apotheoun:
Liturgically the school I attended is not all that Catholic, because it still has not even fully implemented Redemptionis Sacramentum or the older document Ecclesiae de Mysterio. Nevertheless you are correct, because as far as theology is concerned it is more orthodox than most Catholic institutions in the United States, as long as you avoid the professors influenced by the charismatic movement.
I stand corrected. What you say is true regarding the liturgy. Often my point of reference for Latin churches causes me to see Steubenville as almost "High Church"! Although I think by comparison with other liturgies in many parishes and other Catholic campuses, it is very Catholic.

The liturgical situation has improved greatly though from where it was some time back, as has the campus life. FUS was listed among the top 10 party schools by Playboy magazine until Father Michael Scanlan took over as president in the early 70's and instituted the "household" system as an anecdote to the party culture, building instead smaller "fellowships" that became for many a spiritual family and support network. The extra-liturgical worship of these household was decidedly charismatic, so one could say that much of the conversion and Catholic revival of the campus was due to its embrace of the CCR movement.

Campus life has matured a great deal since then, although the charismatic element still remains strong, especially through the summer youth conferences which draw in many students.

God bless,

Gordo
Posted By: Laka Ya Rabb

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 06/16/06 04:43 AM

Apoth,

Things are not the same without you!

BTW, I envy your vast collection of out of print Byzantine Books!
Among those, the hardback version of the Philokalia volumes 1-4 and Byzantine Daily Worship.
Posted By: Apotheoun

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 06/16/06 04:44 AM

Quote
Originally posted by ebed melech:
[. . .]

The liturgical situation has improved greatly though from where it was some time back, as has the campus life. FUS was listed among the top 10 party schools by Playboy magazine until Father Michael Scanlan took over as president in the early 70's and instituted the "household" system as an anecdote to the party culture, building instead smaller "fellowships" that became for many a spiritual family and support network. The extra-liturgical worship of these household was decidedly charismatic, so one could say that much of the conversion and Catholic revival of the campus was due to its embrace of the CCR movement.

Campus life has matured a great deal since then, although the charismatic element still remains strong, especially through the summer youth conferences which draw in many students.

God bless,

Gordo
I know about the school's history, and I am not opposed to the existence of the "Households," because I think that they can be quite beneficial, especially for young men. I am mainly concerned about the poor state of the liturgy (with its heavy charismatic influence), and the theology underlying the charismatic movement, which in my opinion has more in common with the 19th and 20th century "holiness" movements in Protestantism than it does with Catholic theology.
Posted By: ebed melech

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 06/16/06 04:49 AM

Quote
Originally posted by Apotheoun:
I know about the schools history, and I am not opposed to the existence of the "Households," because I think that they can be quite beneficial, especially for young men.
My post about the history was less for you and more for Laka's benefit. He mentioned the "households" and their connection to CCR...

Gordo
Posted By: ukrainiancatholic

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 06/16/06 05:46 AM

What is unfortunate is that I know people who have gone to FUS and have totally abandoned their cradle Eastern heritage and are now full-blown charasmatics and in many cases, anti-East. This includes priest kids, deacon kids, and a sibling of mine who is currently at FUS and belongs to one of those households.

Its a shame. Some even argue that the East isn't as valid, or not Catholic enough.

I am tempted at times to enroll, become Orthodox, and start an Eastern Orthodox chapliancy/brotherhood just to stirr up the place. But I will spare my sibling the emberresment.

-uc
Posted By: ebed melech

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 06/16/06 06:04 AM

uc,

That is a shame. THat is one of the reasons why I believe that Transfiguration College offers much hope.

Your idea about an Orthodox chaplaincy has been churning around in my mind for a year or two, except that it would be Eastern Catholic. I think there is a need to continue the ministry of Monk/Brother Andreas (Eternal memory!) who was a frequent visitor to the campus - and was also the lector at my wedding. What if instead an 'Orientale Lumen Center" was established near the campus for the purpose of supporting Eastern Catholics that attend, educating Latin Catholics on the East and evangelizing in the area.

Just a thought... :-)

Gordo
Posted By: Pani Rose

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 06/16/06 06:46 AM

Monk/Brother Andreas May his memory be eternal+

What a sweet heart. He never gave up on the kids until he got so sick he could do it anymore. That is where Deacon Stan and I were introduced to the Melkite Church at. The small chapel there at the house. One felt like they had stepped back 1,000 years in time when you were there for Divine Liturgy. Msgr. Michael Campbell(our youngest son's Godfather) is bi-ritual, actually Ruthenian but did the Melkite Liturgy and for them. He still fills in in Akron and Canton, well maybe not now that he is in Marietta - too far to go. biggrin

That was one of the projects everyone took on, to make sure the kids he took in from the courts had enough of what they needed. He loved working with youth from all walks of life.
Posted By: ebed melech

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 06/16/06 12:27 PM

Pani Rose,

And I was one of the fruits of his apostolic labors as well. His simple, humorous and challenging two pack a day manner made me think more deeply of the church to which I had returned. I loved that chapel as well, with the icon from New Skete!

And he gave me my first chotki...

He and Erla were such good friends. I have no doubt they are enjoying each others' company on the shores of the New Jerusalem! (With the Little Flower, no doubt! A favorite of Erlas...)

May his memory be eternal!

Gordo

PS: Wouldn't it be a great tribute to him to start some type of center dedicated to continuing his apostolate at FUS?
Posted By: JonnNightwatcher

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 06/16/06 01:24 PM

Quote
Originally posted by ukrainiancatholic:
What is unfortunate is that I know people who have gone to FUS and have totally abandoned their cradle Eastern heritage and are now full-blown charasmatics and in many cases, anti-East. This includes priest kids, deacon kids, and a sibling of mine who is currently at FUS and belongs to one of those households.

Its a shame. Some even argue that the East isn't as valid, or not Catholic enough.

I am tempted at times to enroll, become Orthodox, and start an Eastern Orthodox chapliancy/brotherhood just to stirr up the place. But I will spare my sibling the emberresment.

-uc
if that's the case, I am quite annoyed. who is responsible for this travesty, this alienation of EC youth from their heritage? if what you say is on the ball, then FUS needs to look into this and work towards preserving these students' Rites. I thought that Rome was more or less bending over backwards to ensure that the very situation that you describe does not occur. perhaps I am thinking too much, and am lapsing into wishful thinking.
Much Love,
Jonn
Posted By: ebed melech

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 06/16/06 01:37 PM

Quote
Originally posted by JonnNightwatcher:
if that's the case, I am quite annoyed. who is responsible for this travesty, this alienation of EC youth from their heritage? if what you say is on the ball, then FUS needs to look into this and work towards preserving these students' Rites.
I think the causes of this probably exist on multiple levels. FUS is a unique environment, and for many kids they come to an awareness of their faith in Jesus Christ on a personal level. It is natural that they associate it with the worship and experience on campus. The question could just as easily be asked about our parishes - what is going on within our parishes that would make kids at Steubenville not recognize the same Gospel at their home parish or in their homes?

As to the pastoral care issue, I think that is a topic worthy of broaching with those responsible for pastoral care on campus. Perhaps it is a question for Anthony Dragani as well, since he graduated from there not too long ago, and still lives nearby. He may have a good sense about how this could be handled. As an alumnus (and current grad student) I could also broach the topic. Maybe there is a need to offer catechesis on the Eastern churches to this campus?

God bless,

Gordo
Posted By: Stephanos I

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 06/16/06 02:28 PM

Gordo I will say an big AMEN to that!
There is great need for catechesis about the Eastern Church to everyone. I try to provide it here in our parish and certainly am diligent about it in our elementary school.
Stephanos I
Posted By: ebed melech

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 06/16/06 02:43 PM

That is great, Father! We need more great catholic-minded Latin priests like yourself around!

And I know a few... biggrin

Gordo
Posted By: domilsean

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 06/16/06 02:54 PM

I agree that FUS grads tend to be a little oddball in their version of Catholicism, be they Eastern or Western. I know of more than a few folks who are now involved in the Catholic Charismatic movement but very involved in youth ministry (especially Life Teen, which in my opinion is a bit too Protestant).

However, I also know of 2 men (FUS grads) who are currently in seminary for ACROD and 1 in seminary at Sts. Cyril and Methodius -- all very devout Eastern men.
Posted By: Memo Rodriguez

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 06/16/06 03:36 PM

Hi,

Quote
Actually, that was at the time when the Covenant Community had a decisive influence, with its advocates in position of real power
Ah, aha. I thought we were talking about the Renewal, not the Covenant Communities (which we can also talk about, but we need to be careful not to confuse one with the other).

Both are "charismatic", but that is as far as similarities go between these two "flavors" of charismatic spirituality.

Shalom,
Memo
Posted By: Apotheoun

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 06/16/06 08:55 PM

Quote
Originally posted by JonnNightwatcher:
Quote
Originally posted by ukrainiancatholic:
[b] What is unfortunate is that I know people who have gone to FUS and have totally abandoned their cradle Eastern heritage and are now full-blown charasmatics and in many cases, anti-East. This includes priest kids, deacon kids, and a sibling of mine who is currently at FUS and belongs to one of those households.

Its a shame. Some even argue that the East isn't as valid, or not Catholic enough.

I am tempted at times to enroll, become Orthodox, and start an Eastern Orthodox chapliancy/brotherhood just to stirr up the place. But I will spare my sibling the emberresment.

-uc
if that's the case, I am quite annoyed. who is responsible for this travesty, this alienation of EC youth from their heritage? if what you say is on the ball, then FUS needs to look into this and work towards preserving these students' Rites. I thought that Rome was more or less bending over backwards to ensure that the very situation that you describe does not occur. perhaps I am thinking too much, and am lapsing into wishful thinking.
Much Love,
Jonn [/b]
In fairness to the school, there were less than ten Eastern Catholics enrolled in classes while I was working on my MA in Theology, and two of those students (counting me) were Latin Catholics who became members of the Ruthenian Church only after attending the school for a while.

Also I would like to say that the majority of the professors in the Theology Department were supportive of my theological interests, and often went out of their way in order to accommodate Eastern theological perspectives in class.

The only problems I faced came not from the school or from my professors, but from many of my fellow students, who often saw anything Eastern as threatening to the faith, and as somehow "less Catholic" than Western traditions and doctrines. That being said, it would be nice if an organization could be founded at the school with the intention of helping Eastern Catholic students to maintain their Eastern Catholic identity, while simultaneously educating Western Catholics on the beauty of the Eastern spiritual, liturgical, and doctrinal tradition.

Finally, I was blessed to live in a dorm with two other Byzantine Catholic students, and with a number of Western Catholic students who were open to the East, and who normally attended the divine liturgy at the local Byzantine Catholic Church with the three of us. In fact there were normally between ten and twelve students from the dorm who would caravan over to Weirton in order to attend divine liturgy, and -- as I said -- only three of us were actually Eastern Catholic.
Posted By: Memo Rodriguez

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 06/20/06 11:20 PM

Yet another positive article about the Renewal, this time from Korea:

Charismatic Renewal Credited in Seoul

Shalom,
Memo
Posted By: Westerner Gone East

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 06/21/06 02:17 PM

Once a thread gets to be 10 pages long, the desire to read it through just wanes!

I only hope that Orthodox and Catholic churches don't start handling rattlesnakes.
Posted By: Jakub.

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 06/21/06 03:15 PM

I'm a desert dweller and have no problems with rattlesnakes/scorpions...or wolves & coyotes...be alert and wary...be they 2 or 4 6 8 legged...or "none" legged wink

james
Posted By: Anatolius

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 04/30/11 08:24 PM

Maybe some have some article or can recommend something to read about "chrismatics" in Eastern Catholics Churches. In our Church it is not wide spread phenomenon, but not so long ago a have had a few meetings with one community. I am not a member of movement, but I want to understand and know if there is any experience of reception of this movement in Eastern. Because as far as I know previous head of UGCC His Beattitude Lubomir once said that this is not authentic phenomenon for our tradition. I have same thoughts yet, after my experience, but it interesting to read something more.
Posted By: Irish Melkite

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/01/11 08:18 AM

Anatolius,

Welcome to the forum!

I've seen some evidence of it in photos from an Armenian Catholic parish in South America and among Melkite Catholics in one place in the US. It seems to me that I've also seen a few other references to it elsewhere, but where it was escapes me at the moment.

In the case of the Melkites to whom I referred, I'd say that most of those involved were actually Latins worshipping with Melkites - but two priests - one Melkite and one a bi-ritual Maronite-Melkite - were definitely supportive of it. In the instance of the Armenians, the eparch appeared to be supportive of the movement. I found both cases to be something with which I was very, very uncomfortable.

Many years,

Neil
Posted By: StuartK

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/01/11 10:39 AM

By its very nature, Eastern Christian worship is charismatic, and we have no need to indulge in spectacles to demonstrate it. Everything we do is through the descent and action of the Holy Spirit.
Posted By: Apotheoun

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/05/11 08:37 AM

Originally Posted by StuartK
By its very nature, Eastern Christian worship is charismatic, and we have no need to indulge in spectacles to demonstrate it. Everything we do is through the descent and action of the Holy Spirit.

I agree.
Posted By: Anatolius

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/07/11 10:39 AM

Originally Posted by StuartK
By its very nature, Eastern Christian worship is charismatic, and we have no need to indulge in spectacles to demonstrate it. Everything we do is through the descent and action of the Holy Spirit.


I agree, also
Posted By: Dr. Henry P.

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/11/11 01:08 PM

It is precisely because Eastern Christian worship is charismatic that we should make use of the gifts of the Holy Spirit which we ask to receive during our liturgies. It is scriptural to pray in tongues, to use words of knowledge, to prophesy (interpret the word), to lay hands on others and pray for healing (Mark 16:18; 1 Cor 14, etc.) These are not crazy Protestant inventions.
The use of these gifts allows us fully experience our byzantine spirituality.
Posted By: JDC

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/12/11 02:45 AM

Originally Posted by Dr. Henry P.
It is scriptural to pray in tongues


It is scriptural to speak in tongues.

When the Apostles did it, everyone understood.
When Charismatics do it, nobody understands.


I'm just not convinced these opposites are really quite the same thing.


Posted By: Paul B

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/12/11 10:11 PM

Speaking in tongues is truly a gift of the Holy Spirit. However, if everyone at the prayer service understands the same language it it unnecessary.

The Gift is very valuable should you go to a foreign land, or attend an international event and others would understand whatever lesson or inspiration the Holy Spirit gives you.

In our American services where everyone understands the teaching language of lessons or homilies, speaking in tongues is the Gift of least importance. What is actually embarrassing is that we have not nurtured the other Gifts of the Holy Spirit which He surely has given to our Church members. Either the Holy Spirit has abandoned us (which I don't believe at all) or it exposes the weakness of the Faith on the part of those of us who have been Chrismated.

The bottom line is that every one of us needs to pray that we nurture each of our gifts. I would like to see the results of a survey which asks:
What Gifts has the Holy Spirit given you?
Have you prayed that the Gifts be revealed to you?
Have you asked the Holy Spirit to help you to share your Gifts?

If we pray over and contemplate these questions, THEN we will be truly charismatic.

Christ is risen!
Fr Deacon Paul
Posted By: sielos ilgesys

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/13/11 02:48 AM

If any of them ever do, be sure & invite me as I would get quite a kick out of seeing that.
Posted By: sielos ilgesys

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/13/11 02:58 AM

I myself speak in tongues every day I'm at work. That's what I'm paid to do. Why, just today I spoke in fluent English, French, German, and Spanish - and all the people I spoke to in those tongues understood me, even if they didn't much care for what I had to say. Like, for example, "your connecting flight has been cancelled" or, "yes, you do have to fill out and submit a customs declaration", or, "the decision has been made to deport you back to the country you just came from" or, "put your hands behind your back for handcuffing"... etc., etc., etc.
Posted By: bkovacs

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/13/11 04:16 AM

Originally Posted by eumir
Christ is Risen!

Are there Eastern Catholics involve in the Catholic Charismatic (Renewal) movements? How does Eastern Christian theology adapt to Charismatic praxis, like speaking in toungues and others?

Thank you!
first among sinners


Please don't get me started!. The "Latin" Catholic Charismatic Movement is nothing more than heretical Pentecostalism trying to put it's mark into Catholicism. It's an innovation from protestantism. And that is where it can stay!.
Posted By: Memo Rodriguez

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/24/11 09:26 PM

Originally Posted by bkovacs
Please don't get me started!. The "Latin" Catholic Charismatic Movement is nothing more than heretical Pentecostalism trying to put it's mark into Catholicism. It's an innovation from protestantism. And that is where it can stay!.


But that is just your opinion.

The official opinion of the Catholic Church is that the Catholic Charismatic Renewal is a valid movement in the Catholic Church, a gift from God for the Church (just like any other movement) and it is bearing a lot of good fruit for the people of God.

Of course, like in everything, there are those who with various degrees of knowledge commit abuses, make mistakes, etc. But these are individuals, not the movement as a whole.

Now, if you do not like the movement, you are perfectly free not to associate yourself with it. However, you do not have the authority to declare us heretics.

God Bless!

Shalom,
Memo
Posted By: jimdi3

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/24/11 10:13 PM

I frequently pray in tongues ... in my private place, particularly when I have run out of the many ways of saying thankyou in my language. (I'm not blessed with more than one). So as I search for the Now in which to pray, I open my soul and it reaches out to the LOrd praying giving voice.

Hope that makes sense.

James
Posted By: Stephanos I

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/26/11 02:01 AM

While I do not favor all of the goings on in the Charismatic Renewal such a statement is simply not true. There has been a long history of the gifts of charisma in the Catholic Church through out the ages. It is wrong to condemn someone simply because they have a different spirituality than yourself.
Stephanos I
Posted By: Irish Melkite

Re: Charismatic (Renewal) Movement and Eastern Catholic Churches - 05/26/11 07:00 AM

Originally Posted by Stephanos I
While I do not favor all of the goings on in the Charismatic Renewal such a statement is simply not true. There has been a long history of the gifts of charisma in the Catholic Church through out the ages. It is wrong to condemn someone simply because they have a different spirituality than yourself.
Stephanos I


Although I am no fan of charismatic movements within the Eastern Churches, they have a history - recent and more ancient - in the Western Church and it is not our place to condemn them or sit in judgement on their spiritual efficacy.

Father Stephanos' comments are well-taken and should resound particularly with we of the East whose spirituality and praxis have not always been embraced with enthusiasm by our brother Christians of the West.

On that note, this thread appears to have run its course and to be verging on the prospect of inviting a lack of charity between East and West that is not conducive to the coming celebration of Pentecost, when the Apostles spoke in tongues.

The thread is closed; thanks to all who participated.

Many years,

Neil
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