For me it has to be. 1. The beauty of some Eastern houses of worship. Not coming from an Eastern background, I view icons in a somewhat different light, so I tend to see them as religious ornamentation,with the more of them there are the better I like it. In fact I find the atmosphere in a church like Saints Volodymyr and Olha in Chicago, as breathtakingly Holy as some of our most impressive Latin Rite churches, mainly due to the almost sea of icons effect. 2. The liturgy. I prefer the Eastern Liturgies to what the Latin Rite has, with the exception of the Tridentine. 3. The stability of tradition. Unfortunately, I've heard of or seen in the Latin Rite, congas in the church, handclapping, cheering, priests acting like the Mass is a pep rally, leopard skins on the altar, images of people who were not even Christians, in the church, charismatic groups, extreme left wing ideology being preached from the pulpit, joining of hands during the consecration (personally I have a strong aversion to holding hands with anyone except my girlfriend)and countless other abuses. I'll probably think of more reasons soon, but those are the main ones.
Those mass abuses sound terrible! I truly hope that they will ALL be gone soon for my RC friends.
What I like about the West is:
The short mass (without abuses, like at St. Patrick's Cathedral)...not that I don't like the looooong liturgy, but sometimes I just don't feel up to it, and the half hour mass substitutes beautifully.
The holiness of this present Pope. He is truly, truly, a great saint living among us.
EWTN!
The rosary.
Cardinal O'Connor's (of blessed memory) integrity and sermons, Father Groeschel of the Franciscans of the Renewal here in NY, and on EWTN, and who I have been priveledged to hear speak, and to meet...
Gothic cathedrals!
Gregorian chant. (why don't you use it more???)
In Christ,
Alice
Crumbs - where do I start and just as important where do I stop
The timeless Liturgy in the East - it so lifts me
The beautiful prayers
The realisation that Icons are truly a window to heaven.
my prayer rope - much easier to have in my hands at times than a Rosary [ much as I love that ]
Can I stop now instead of going on for hours ?
Anhelyna
Bravo Brother Lawrence
Amen & Alleuia !
james, a Latiniak?
Icons, Iconostasis, Domes, Trisagion, Cherubic Hymn, Prayer said by priest to communicant, Jesus Prayer. Mystery of Crowning.
Paul (Roman Catholic)
What do I like about the West? Interesting question. Here 'goes (in no particular order).
1. The fact that the Latin Rite is in possession of its "Mother Church." Most probably cannot imagine the sadness my Eastern heart feels that I will never be able to attend a Liturgy in St. Sophia just like the emmicaries from the court of St. Volodymyr did.
2. Gregorian Chant. I agree with the above - it should be used more (and in its original form - no organ doubling the voices or whatever).
3. Having media such as Vatican Radio and EWTN. It's a numbers thing, I know.
4. The accoustics in name of the great Western Cathederals. There can be great accoustics in Eastern Churches as well, but I will never forget giving a concert in York Minster an hearing that ten-fifteen second reverb after we were done.
I could probably think of more, but work becons.
Yours,
kl
I love the beauty, over and above everything else. The colors, the sounds, the icons, the music, the chanting ... the fact that so far I have NEVER heard an Eastern priest utter the words "Good morning, everyone!" at the beginning of the Liturgy!
I love the fact that the Byzantine Liturgy is celebrated in the vernacular and yet the translators did not seem to feel the need to be "politically correct" - which gives me hope that the translation of the Latin Rite will someday be just as beautiful.
I love the fact that I really feel the presence of my grandparents, especially my grandmother, and my great-aunt Mae, next to me during the Divine Liturgy. Not because they were Eastern; they weren't, they were staunch Roman Catholics. But they suffered a lot due to the abuses which unfortunately took over the R.C. Mass for such a long time (and are still around).
I just always think that they would love the Byzantine Liturgy so much, because all the things they loved so much that were taken away from them, are here. All the beauty, all the reverence, all the devotion ... and no guitars!!!
-Pierogies with mushroom gravy
-stuffed cabbage
-Borscht
-Holushky
-kiffles...
oops....sorry..
-Strong sense of Tradition
-Timeless Liturgy
-Prayer rope
-The emphasis on Theosis
-icons
There are more, of course...
Columcille
What do I like about the East?
There is so much! Here are just a few things off the top of my head in no particular order:
For starters, the different emphasis in Eastern theology, for example theosis, in its own right. I also like it because it helps to enlighten me about the truth taught by the theology of the West.
The different approach taken to the Liturgical life of the Church. It has enriched me when I participate in an Eastern Liturgy and helped me to understand the power of our own Liturgy.
The connection that the Eastern Churches provide with the lives and ways of some of my ancestors who came from Galacia and Ukraine.
The fact that it offers The Byzantine Forum which makes it possible to learn so much without attending an Eastern School of Theology.
That the East has produced fellow believers who are icons of God's love, the Eastern Christian posters here, who have patience with a Latin like me as I try to learn of the East.
That through this medium provided unofficially by the Byzantine Catholic Church in America I have come to know all of you. You contribute to my life in ways that you cannot possibly know
And so many many more things! So little time....
Steve
Ah I have to come back in here - having read some of the other comments
Paul --
Prayer said by priest to communicant, yes that too - though I have problems with comprehension [in Ukrainian
]
Columkille
-Pierogies with mushroom gravy -stuffed cabbage -Borscht -Holushky -kiffles... still to experience - but can't think when that might be
Steve all of what he has said particularly
That through this medium provided unofficially by the Byzantine Catholic Church in America I have come to know all of you. You contribute to my life in ways that you cannot possible know Oh yes +++ and the friendships that have come as a result and the support that is there whenever we have need of it.
Oh dear I'm in danger of becoming maudlin :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Anhelyna
Anhelyna-
Well my wife's babba(from Ukraine)just spent the week with us and she always shows up with a trunk load of goodies. If left to my own devices, I would not be able to make the food I mentioned
Oh..I forgot to mention the sweet cabbage and noodle dish she made, mmmm.
Columcille
Originally posted by Columcille:
Anhelyna-
Well my wife's babba(from Ukraine)just spent the week with us and she always shows up with a trunk load of goodies. If left to my own devices, I would not be able to make the food I mentioned
Oh..I forgot to mention the sweet cabbage and noodle dish she made, mmmm.
Columcille Hush you - I'm drooling again :p
Dear Columcille,
I think you can teach our "Ukrainian ROCOR crowd" a thing or two about a well-integrated Ukrainian tradition . . .
Alex
Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
Dear Columcille,
I think you can teach our "Ukrainian ROCOR crowd" a thing or two about a well-integrated Ukrainian tradition . . .
Alex Alex-
My wife tells me that her babba wanted her to find a good Ukranian boy to marry...instead she got me
However, with my love of the cuisine and my ability to talk with her about the Ukranian Catholic Church, she says I am Ukranian by adoption
Columcille
Sorry for taking the thread off topic. Let us resume with the original intent of the thread. I hate being a thread hijacker
Glory to Jesus Christ!
Glory to Him Forever!
Dear all,
As a Roman Catholic, I like the following about the East:
1) Beautiful and reverent Divine Liturgy
2) Emphasis on Theosis
3) Emphasis on "acquiring the Holy Spirit."
4) The beauty and theology of the Mystery of Crowning.
5) Icons
6) The idea that the liturgy speaks apostolic doctrine, not just pretty words.
7) The Jewishness of the Eastern Church.
8) How the Eastern Church has built cultures (e.g. Ukrainian, Russian, Greek) the faith influences even what you eat, and run your home!
There are many more things, but those are the main ones.
A sinner,
Adam
Columcille, Sweet cabbage and noddles would be one form of "Halushky". The Galician variant would be Halushky (dumpling noddle) with brindzha
cheese. Smachnoho!
Ung-Certez
Why do y'all have to post about nifty food when it's late, I'm hungry, and haven't the foggiest notion of how to make anything like this?
Aside from the fact that I love the Divine Liturgy, I must say that I really appreciate how the Eastern parish really "does Sunday" -- both in worship and in community -- I mean, they all stay there for the coffee hour afterwards for a while -- instead of just taking off! And they dress appropriately as the rule rather than as an exception.
The Cherubic Hymn, the procession of the Holy Gifts, -- and the sense of timelessness -- there is no time, it seems time has been suspended there. I love that feeling, don't you? There is also the sense of 'you have all the time in the world' when people go up for Holy Communion - I can't receive, because this is an Orthodox parish, but I enjoy how people are very much 'not rushed' and appear to approach the Mysteries with a sense of joy and - as I say - not being rushed. A very nice thing. I'm sure it's like that in Eastern Catholic churches as well and I do mean to attend soon!
Steve/Inawe, what nice things to say about the forum. How awfully nice and eloquently said.
Reminds me of what someone said -- who said this? -- "In heaven, we will speak and know one another with a glance of the soul." (A friend of mine quoted this, but I can't recall which saint in history said this or something similar).
So might we all be in the Communion of Saints, in this world and in the next!
C of S ( I can only hope )
What I admire about the Roman Church, is the Latin Mass. Bewteen high school and college, I have six years of studying Latin and have a great love of the language. I have a Vulgate Bible that I read from time to time.
I think much is lost in the new order of the Mass. The guitar playing and charismatic feel takes much away from worship. Also the interior of the churches are like Protestant churches.
This is what I like about the east, from the little I know and have experienced:
Icons
the music
the trisagion
the emphasis on the Trinity and its constant invocation
the liturgy as heaven on earth
the beauty
theosis (what little I understand about it)
the prayers I�ve read here and elsewhere online
again, the music
a sung liturgy
liberal use of incense
bowing (though I like kneeling too :p )
What do I love about the East?
The Liturgy
The understanding that theology is grounded in worship, prayer, and Eucharist.
The beauty and grace of the Liturgy.
The sense of tradition and antiquity.
The sense of mystery
Icons
Facing East for worship
The Theocentricity of her Theology
The authority of Scripture and Holy Tradition.
The commitment to the ecumenical creeds, councils, and dogmas.
The importance of the Fathers.
The recognition of mystery.
What do I like about the West (Roman Communion)?
Sense of Catholicity
A real desire to embrace both Augustine and the Cappadocians in her theology and spirituality.
The insistence to always transcend the provincial.
Theology
Willingness to move beyond exposition of the Fathers and to think deeply on the truths of revelation.
Theological creativity.
Openness to truth as found outside the Church, for all truth is God's truth.
What do I love about the West as embodied in Anglicanism?
The liturgy and the poetic cadence of Cranmer.
The gracefulness of evangelistic mission and presence.
The quiet, balanced sense of prayer.
Stain glass windows
Gothic cathedrals
(The last two of course are shared with the Latin West.)
Glory to Jesus Christ!
As for the East, I like everything, so I won't elaborate...
But since switching over to the Eastern Church, I guess I can say that I miss, most of all, the silence. I was a Latin traditionalist, so most of the time, the Mass was done in whispers in Latin. While I now see that this is far from ideal, I miss having to serve Mass kneeling with my hands pressed together. (I'm just a nostalgic altar boy at heart!) I also miss the Gregorian chant, that cannot be compared with any other type of sacred music. There is a special type of solemnity to the traditional Latin rite that cannot be put into words that the Byzantine Church does not have, although you could argue it has something better.
As far as theology and morals, I can only say that sometimes I miss the Latin precision and discipline that was emphasized in my seminary days. Everything was "X is always Y. Now, Y is always Z. Thus, all X is Z", etc. In many cases, I sometimes think the whole "oekonomia" thing goes too far. God is a big mystery, yes, but I think, at least in some venues, this goes too far. Sometimes I feel I am taking apophatic theology to the point of agnosticism. Maybe this is just a personal problem, but as a Latin, I think there were times I felt "more sure" of things.
Just some thoughts.
Arturo
Arturo, next time you are in Los Angeles, make sure you go here:
http://www.op-stjoseph.org/nuns/angels/ You will love the beautiful silence of the nuns' adoration chapel!
Well, before Internet it was almost impossible to find complete information about the Orthodox (faith, liturgy, chant). When I was a very little kid, I remember that in Easter you had to stand up too much and it's very heavy for children. I was choir singer when I was a kid and we used to sing sacred music in Latin sometimes, and my mothers friend had an Old Latin Missal so i got very interested in Latin liturgy and Church (and the missal had biographies of saints and popes). But when I went to a Roman mass in my town I was like surprised because it was very different from the Palestrina chant and text in Latin. But I still get very interested in the West, there are so many great saints and the popes.
Moreover, the spiritual strenght of the Catholic Church is enormous, and this Pope has a lot of authority and teaches traditional values, and his leadership is good for Christians, more in a Catholic country. That's why it's always great when a Roman Bishop or a priest preaches and holds the orthodox faith (without "O"
) because Catholicism is the spiritual strenght of a nation. Churches of East and West have experienced moments of prosperity and holliness, but also moments of difficulties, and the speldor of the Roman Church will sure be back.
What do I like about the East?
The beauty of the liturgy, the icons, my prayer rope, the incense, the Cherubic hymn, the sense of awe and mystery, the Jesus Prayer, the sayings of the desert ammas and abbas
What do I like about the Roman Church?
Eucharistic adoration, holy water, missionary zeal
What do I like about Anglicanism?
Soaring liturgies, freedom of interpretation, the Book of Common Prayer, our Hymnal
WHAT I LIKE ABOUT THE (CATHOLIC) WEST, AS A NON-ROMAN CATHOLIC OBSERVER:
+ Eucharistic Adoration
+ Evangelization
+ Apparitions of the Most Blessed Virgin
+ Intellectual stimulation
+ Logic
+ Structure
+ Emphasis on God's Justice
+ Tendency not to "sugar-coat" things
+ Solemnity of Liturgy
+ Pan-national emphasis
+ Gregorian Chant
+ Stigmata
+ Saints who have made it clear that it is possible to be both Roman Catholic and extremely mystical (St. John of the Cross, St. Padre Pio, Mother Theresa of Calcutta)
WHAT I LIKE ABOUT THE (CATHOLIC) EAST, AS A NON-EASTERN CATHOLIC OBSERVER:
+ Otherwordliness of Liturgy
+ Icons
+ The submition of the intellect to the soul
+ Emphasis on God's Mercy
+ Devotion and recognition to the history and heritage of the Church
+ Union with the Bishop of Rome*
+ The contribution of a well-rounded catholicity to the Holy Catholic Church
Logos Teen
*Remember, I'm speaking about the Eastern Catholic Churches, not the Eastern Orthodox Churches.
I think for many of us, what we admire today about the Catholic church is same thing John Henry Newman admired -- the great dynamo that is the Catholic Church. In the present day, Catholicism is a very effective evangelizer -- in Africa, in Asia and other lands. It is also a strong voice for justice and peace in the world.
What does Orthodoxy have? The tendency is to first say our liturgy. However, if I stop and reflect as to what has brought new members to my parish, maybe for only a quarter was it the liturgy. For about half it was marriage, so I must say what is best about Orthodoxy is we must be good looking people who attract others as spouses!
For the remaining quarter, they are mostly former catholics of a certain generation and of conservative temperment, but who had great difficulties with Humanae Vitae.
Axios
in the Roman Catholic tradition i love litanies and novenas, the stations of the cross, the Pipe organ during the mass, and heavy eucharistic adoration.
in the eastern churches i love the heavy emphasis on sacred tradition, chanted divine liturgy, sacred icons(and other eastern art)
Last year my class-from my Roman Catholic grade school- took a field trip to my parish. I remember that my teacher, who was born before vatican II, said that he liked how our priests face the altar. He also said that he liked our Iconostas because it reminds him of the communion rails. He also liked our chants.
As for me I like the OLD Roman Catholic Cathedral in the Gothic styles like Notre Dame, and I also like the Cathedral of St. James Compestalla in Spain. These old and beautiful churches are a great tribute to the Roman Catholic churches.
-Katie g
I appreciate the Byzantine Church's approach to the Liturgy and prayer. The timelessness--which has been mentioned many times here.
Perhaps the best gift, however, was the gift of learning to pray and entering into a living dialogue with Christ contained within the many prayer texts within the liturgical texts and prayer books.
My Orthodox mentors emphasized that whenever one is praying, even when one is praying alone and in the most isolated of spots, one is surrounded by the Church from all the ages. Since the whole of created time is as one flash before the Face of God the Father and the life-giving Sacrifice of Christ stands in the midst and we who are baptized into Christ are part of His Body, the Church, with Him as our outer garment, whatever we do is part and parcel of whatever has been, is being, or will be done by every other Christian in every age. That, they say, is what the Communion of Saints is about; that is what it means to be "coming into union" with Christ--that dynamic relationship that transcends time, space, and distance wherein one is never alone. It has penetrated me to such an extent that I have never been able to pray without thinking about it since. Liturgically, we transcend time, space, and distance to be simultaneously present and participating in the Cross, the Resurrection, the Ascension, and the Glorious Second coming. Our prayer is a continuation of our liturgical experience carried from the time it is served until our next experience of it.
When the Liturgy starts, wherever I am, you are all there. Even when it has been a small gathering physically, as these priests emphasized to me, the walls mystically open and all of the baptized are there. (Gets kind of crowded if one starts to really meditate on that.) But being part of a family that prays together means, too, that when I have a day when I just can't gather the strength--try as I might--to pray the day is not lost because the Communion of my brethren is still praying and I am swept up in it and made part of it. In this we all become Simon of Cyrene to each other: we carry each other so that no one is left alone or behind. We are all on the way to the Kingdom together. So if I am praying alone or praying in community, it is all much more than just me or just my community--we cannot be isolated.
Love cannot be divided; it can only be multiplied.
BOB
I also like the way Holy Communion is received in the Eastern Rite. But in all honesty, I can picture at least a few ultra traditional Latin Rite Catholics being horrified at the realization that it's Communion under both kinds. As if that were a mortal sin.
Originally posted by Lawrence:
I also like the way Holy Communion is received in the Eastern Rite. But in all honesty, I can picture at least a few ultra traditional Latin Rite Catholics being horrified at the realization that it's Communion under both kinds. As if that were a mortal sin.
Well, be a little sympathetic. What y'all Eastern Rite Catholics may not know is that the liberal liturgists in the Western Rites ALWAYS misrepresent you - use you as their "scapegoat" -- for any weird changes they want to institute.
For example - seriously! - I once attended a guitar mass in 1970 where the Eucharist was a loaf of Wonder Bread and a bottle (not even a chalice!) of wine, which were passed around the congregation. We were supposed to tear off a piece of bread and take a slug of the wine. The beaming priest explained to us that this was EXACTLY how "our Brothers and Sisters in the Eastern churches" received the Eucharist all the time, and we were now expressing our solidarity with them!!
I swear, every time some innovation has been introduced, without permission from Rome, the person trying to push it has explained that we were just imitating "our Brothers and Sisters in the Eastern Churches." When I finally went to an Eastern Church on my own and saw how things were REALLY done, it was truly an eye-opener. Not a crumb of Wonder Bread in sight - thanks be to God!
But given all this, don't be surprised if your visiting "ultra trads" (or even "semi trads") are a little uncomfortable at first. It's just that we've sadly been misinformed about you for so long.
Dear Theist Gal,
I read with interest your comments. Based them, I have a few comments and some questions.
I'm truly sorry to hear about the abuses that you've experienced in the example from 1970 that you posted.
I trust that you and the others who were present at this most unorthodox liturgy dealt with it appropriately, that you left and then reported it to the proper authorities. How was it handled by the authorities?
I must tell you that in all of my years as a Catholic, I have never seen or heard of such an abuse.
I'm not doubting your experience, but it seems outlandish in my experience. I did a quick survey of some of those with whom I shared those years in the Roman Church. They were also astounded to hear about that abuse.
Perhaps what the priest in that horrific example was talking about was taking communion under both species which was a realtively new experience back then for many. Could it not be that he was teaching about the reception of bread and wine as is done in the East? No rational person would claim that Easterners used wine in a bottle and wonderbread in their liturgy. Certainly you do not want us to believe that even that apparently misguided priest was saying that they do?
Be that as it may, I think that it is important to note that even the example that you gave was from 1970.
I think that it is important not to leave the impression that abuses in our Mass are the norm or that they are legion based on individual experience or an abuse! 1970 was 33 years ago. Literally millions of Masses have been offered in that time. I think that it is safe to say that a great majority of liturgies celebrated in the Latin Church, if not most of them, did not contain abuses.
Abuses there are and have been, though. Might I suggest, however, that they are fewer than has been suggested. Isn't it more accurate to report that respectfully celebrated Latin Catholic Masses following the rubrics are the common norm?
*******
You made quite a sweeping generalization when you posted:
"Well, be a little sympathetic. What y'all Eastern Rite Catholics may not know is that the liberal liturgists in the Western Rites ALWAYS misrepresent you - use you as their "scapegoat" -- for any weird changes they want to institute."
Again, your experience has been quite different from mine.
I'm not sure who the liberal liturgists in the Western rites to whom you refer are. Which reputable liturgist(s) always misrepresent(s) our Eastern brothers and sisters? Could you provide names and references of reputable Catholic liturgists of any stripe who do that or have done that?
Which liturgist's works contain comments that make scapegoats of our Eastern Christian hosts. Which liturgists actually propose abuses and claim that these abuses are to be found in the East? Can you substantiate this charge?
Certainly you cannot mean that the priest in the example is a liturgist of repute!
I have never heard any Latin Catholic liturgist suggest an abuse and cite Eastern Catholic beliefs and practices as the source from which he or she drew it. Again, can you provide references or links to works in which that took place?
I have been here a long time now. During that time, assertions have made about abuses in the Latin Liturgy. Although I think that there are better places than the Byzantine Forum to focus on them, posters are free to post as they will within the bounds of Christian Love and truth.
When challenged as to their factual nature, the abuses usually are usually determined to have to do with aesthetic preferences or musical taste or linguistic usage or changes in body position of priest or congregation. These are issues of preference, not abuse.
Few assertions of abuse stood up to scrutiny, even here. They do happen but when they do, they stand out because they are the exception not the norm.
When the assertions appear to be true, it is noted that this forum is not the place to deal with those issues and the posters are referred to appropriate Latin authorities.
Frankly, I'm astonished by the approach of some of my fellow Latin Catholics in this thread. There are many beautiful and noteworthy things to point out that we Latin Catholics who come here love about the East.
The topic was not abuses in the Latin Church.
Some responses suggest otherwise.
Theist Gal, I mean no offense, but when a poster does what you appear to do, ie makes assertions that appear to be off target, I think that its appropriate to challenge the assertions. If the assertions are true, then appropriate references to sources that support them ought to be offered.
What good does it do to try to support a purported Latin traditionalist's attitude about communion under both species by what appear to be unsupported sweeping generalizations which paint the work of liturgists in our own Church with a negative brush?
Thanks for hearing me out.
Steve
Originally posted by Inawe:
I trust that you and the others who were present at this most unorthodox liturgy dealt with it appropriately, that you left and then reported it to the proper authorities. How was it handled by the authorities?
Well, Steve, being that I was all of 10 years old at the time, I didn't really have many options, other than to go home with my mommy and daddy and "treasure up all these things in my heart", to be used at a later date as amusing stories to tell on the Byzantine Forum.
And I think you have completely misunderstood my previous post, so I'm not going to get into any heavy refutations. Anyone who's read my other posts here and at my web site knows how I feel about my beloved Catholic Church (and about God's patience with my sense of humor
).
Dear Theist Gal,
Thanks for your quick response.
From what you've said, then, can it be concluded that your previous posting was a joke? There was no serious attempt to attribute attitudes and inappropriate behavior to Latin Liturgists in what you posted?
Forgive me if I don't see or share the humor in the example that you cited or the charges that you made. But since you say it's there, I'll go with that.
I love a good joke or a pun!
Did I miss where you do a Sophia Petrillo and say, "Joke, people, Joke!"
Or, did you forget to put it in?
Thanks for hearing me out.
Steve
Originally posted by Inawe:
Dear Theist Gal,
Thanks for your quick response.
From what you've said, then, can it be concluded that your previous posting was a joke? There was no serious attempt to attribute attitudes and inappropriate behavior to Latin Liturgists in what you posted?
No, Steve, my story was not a "joke", but it was a humorous and true incident, one of many which occurred under the auspices of a group called "Community One", based in Kansas City, Missouri - one of many such "non-parished" groups flourishing in the U.S. during the late '60's and early '70's. For better and for worse, they implemented many of the legitimate changes to the Roman Rite, but too often altered them according to their own personal opinions about how those changes should be done.
They did some things right and some things wrong, and in my extreme old age, I can't help but look back and laugh at some of the things they tried to pull and the excuses they came up with. And why not? When you think about it, it's pretty funny.
Forgive me if I don't see or share the humor in the example that you cited or the charges that you made. But since you say it's there, I'll go with that.
Well, I wasn't laughing in a "ha ha, aren't they cute " sense, but in a "can you believe they actually said/did this?? " sense, sort of like the way we laugh at Michael Jackson.
Did I miss where you do a Sophia Petrillo and say, "Joke, people, Joke!"
Or, did you forget to put it in?
Thanks for hearing me out.
Steve
Well, if you have to label it, it's either a really good or a really bad joke. Better just to put it out there and let people decide for themselves.
However, I stand by the fact that things like this DID happen during that exciting period when liturgical experimentation was permitted. And that I personally did hear some of the more egregious abuses justifed by claiming they originated in the Eastern churches. That's my own personal experience, all to be detailed in my exciting tell-all autobiography, if I ever get the time to write it.
Dear Theist Gal,
This:
"I stand by the fact that things like this DID happen during that exciting period when liturgical experimentation was permitted. And that I personally did hear some of the more egregious abuses justifed by claiming they originated in the Eastern churches. That's my own personal experience, all to be detailed in my exciting tell-all autobiography, if I ever get the time to write "
Is quite different from this:
"What y'all Eastern Rite Catholics may not know is that the liberal liturgists in the Western Rites ALWAYS misrepresent you - use you as their "scapegoat" -- for any weird changes they want to institute."
and also quite different from this:
"I swear, every time some innovation has been introduced, without permission from Rome, the person trying to push it has explained that we were just imitating "our Brothers and Sisters in the Eastern Churches." When I finally went to an Eastern Church on my own and saw how things were REALLY done, it was truly an eye-opener. Not a crumb of Wonder Bread in sight - thanks be to God!"
My concern was in the difference!
Personally, I'd like to read what you write!
Steve
(sigh)
"No one ever expects the Spanish inquisition!"
Originally posted by Inawe:
Now that's funny!
Steve
Hah! Made you laugh!
Ahhh... what do I, as a Roman Catholic, like about the Eastern churches?? I will break my �vacation� and 'fast' from the board to gladly add my views.
Like many others I will express this as what I like about both - Eastern and Western.
In my prayer one day, my mind was bothered by �Good Lord, which of your churches is the better church?� and Jesus held up his hands and said �Which of my hands is the better hand?�
The Roman Catholic Church - let me start with where Providence has placed me.
I love these things about the Church assigned to the Bishop of Rome.
1) That it is the mother church, and remains with the historic Honor and office of Peter.
2) The Catholic and Universal nature of it and all churches united to her. That all branches of Christianity have spun-off from her - like her children. Protestant, Evangelic, Calvin, Luther, etc..
3) That I can walk into any ethic church united to her and feel at home and receive the sacraments and experience the church�s varieties of rites and theological expression and feel at one with my heritage and history.
4) The Mass. ! ! And the fact that, if I do not understand the particular local language it is being said in, I still know what is being said and what to do because I know the Mass. I can participate.
5) Her dedication to the central mystery of the Eucharist and her calling us to the mystical life.
6) The openness and availability of Her rich and abundant, and varied, mystical life. From St. Francis to Thomas Merton. From Pade Pio to Archbishop Sheen. From the public phenomena to the quiet and simple-ness of her saints. There are many gateways to her mystical life. Through Her God comes down to me and speaks my particular language and human experiences - and invites me to himself.
7) That you can enter into the personal lives of her saints and mystics through personal biographies and such. That you can read and relate in some way to �what it is to be human� and be worked on by God. The human and personal letters of such a man as Padre Pio and the personal struggles and joys of what it is to be human and go all the away to the Mystical Marriage.
8) The attitude that the heritage of the entire church is spread before me, West and East. It is all my Father�s house. From the beginning to the end.
9) Its un-bias, non-exclusive and reconciliatory attitude toward the rest of the churches that comprise the full body of Christ. Her humility about the faults and sins of her human side and members.
10) Its great Doctor�s and their writings, and its theologians such as Hans Urs Von Balthasar.
11) That despite the failure and sins of some of its member priests (almost exclusively American) - She is steadfast and publicly active, against the popular tide, as regards issues such as abortion, homosexual marriage, traditions of the priesthood, and takes a public stand on a few important social issues and She maintains herself as the Living Body and Mystical Presence of Christ to which all else in Christianity is secondary and defined in the light of. She was not born from scriptures but scriptures were born from Her.
I love these things about the Eastern Church
1) A dedication to preserving the early rites and theological expressions of the first centuries of the Church. The preservation of �the mind� of the early fathers and ascetics.
2) Its intuitiveness and simplicity in human nature. The experiential nature of its theology.
3) Its �family-ness� - that you have become a member on a human and real family level.
4) To experience the Liturgy as near as to what the first Christians after the apostles experienced, as we can get. To know that attending Liturgy is an experience very near what Christians experienced 1500 years ago.
5) Its assumption that living as a Christian is not regulated to certain times compartments of your life. ur life.
6) Some will no doubt misunderstand me here - but as regards the Orthodox church as a bit separate from Eastern Catholics - I love that most of Orthodox clergy have left behind defining themselves as Orthodox by a definition of �not-Latin� and are now beginning to define themselves as � the Orthodox church having its own positive self identity and a valuable expression of Christianity to add to the Church Universal. This - thrills me - for what it brings to the rest of the Church.
7) That Her priesthood and sacraments are apostolic succession. And maintain their earliest expression.
8) That despite homeland social persecution - She has maintained her spiritual life in special cultural ways - and shows how to live spiritually in a society which is repressive to it. She is the church surviving social persecutions.
9) Her saints! And mystical experiences.
10) Her dedication to the formative centuries of the early life of the church centering on the Greek fathers. The chaotic times, the rush of history, the glories, the fights, the differences, the sins - all displays their human nature - and if God could work with them! - he will have no trouble working with - us.
11) That the church in her history - is still alive and vital to us today. The preservation of the roots. Like a huge living tree - the church of today (Western) is still feed from her roots and united to them. If the roots die - the whole tree dies. The Eastern church is an anchor - and to the extent that the Western Church can trace the - continuation - of herself through her roots in the Eastern church - she remains spiritual true and culturally adaptive. Of course I would argue that the Western expressions of the church have remained a continuation of her roots. And I love the Eastern church as the roots of my own Roman Catholic church.
To me - the Church is One - but varied in human nature.
A diamonds has many facets - and you can look through any cut side - but the fire inside is the one same fire seen through all facets. So it is with the Church - each cut facet is a windows through the human nature of the Church by which see can see One internal Fire.
For me to say �I like this about this church� does not automatically say �I dislike this about the other church.� I consider myself bless to be able to walk around the entire diamond and see that One internal flame form every side. And I do attribute that attitude to my Roman Catholic church. What are the words in the Catholic Mass "that from East to West - the glory of your name be known." or something like that.
Originally posted by RayK:
In my prayer one day, my mind was bothered by “Good Lord, which of your churches is the better church?” and Jesus held up his hands and said “Which of my hands is the better hand?”
That's such a beautiful image, Ray - thanks!!!
Well after reading all these - what can I say ?
All I know is that I am very frustrated that the Pilgrimage that I was due to start on Friday to Lourdes has been cancelled due to lack of numbers
- and I had
so been looking forward to Divine Liturgy on Sunday.
However I will be going to France during September/October so will certainly be able to wonder on one [ or maybe 2] Sundays whether I am in Heaven.
[ Oh take that as advance notice and contact me if you have any requests to Place in our Mother's hands ]
Anhelyna
The talent and energy that RayK put into his post makes me envious, it would have taken me a couple of days to write it and proof it.
james
sorry for the double send!
What a beautiful, balanced study of the jewel that is God's Churches!
Thank you, Ray.
Steve
Dear Ray,
THAT was absolutely beautiful. Especially your answer from God!!! AWESOME!
May God bless you always with His inspiration,
Alice
What do I, as a "Latin," like about the Christian East?
1. The mystical dimension of life. The Christian East actually acknowledges the mystical dimension of life; in the West, it is often denied or viewed with fear. The Christian East also teaches how to develop the mystical side of life in a sane and balanced way, within the Gospel, for everyone: and not just for a few spiritual experts.
2. The Holy Spirit For the first time in my life, I feel like I am beginning to learn something about the Holy Spirit -- thanks to the Eastern Christians. Before, I knew He is a member of the Trinity, and what is said in the Creed every Sunday, but I had little understanding or appreciation of Him beyond that. By the way, I tend to agree with the Easterners on the filioque issue precisely because of the effects. In the East, the Holy Spirit is appreciated and understood. In the West, the Holy Spirit isn't mentioned much (except among some Pentecostals and Charismatics), and He really isn't understood very deeply. So, I�m very grateful to the Christian East for teaching me something about the Holy Spirit.
3. Theosis I never really learned about theosis in the Christian West. Yes, the West teaches to live in union with Jesus, but that is usually in a personal or sacramental way. And that is very good. But, it rather leaves out the Father and the Holy Spirit. And, it gives a somewhat incomplete idea of Christian living here. We are supposed to regard the neighbor as another Christ; that is very clearly taught in the West. But how? Spiritually? And what does that mean? And, what is the whole point? Etc. These questions are not very fully answered in the Christian West beyond "Jesus wants to save you from sin and hell, staring now and foretasting forever." That is tremendous Good News, but it is also, well, somehow incomplete. The Eastern idea of theosis seems to provide a fuller explanation for the purpose of life, here and hereafter, and hence how to live the Gospel.
4. Icons. As art, icons are interesting: sometimes moving, sometimes boring, but always interesting. However, as a spiritual concept, icons are tremendous. The idea that we are to become living windows of the living God, in imitation of Jesus, speaks very powerfully to me.
Overall, I like the Christian East for its spirituality. (Yes, the liturgy is beautiful -- but so too is the current Roman Catholic Mass. They are different, but the same Eucharist is there.) That is because for me, personally, I did not find a way to be spiritual within the Western forms of Christianity. I needed something more than praying the Rosary; I needed an entire system for seeing the Gospel and all of life in a spiritual way. That is just my personal need, because I have a spiritual streak in me (sinner that I am). Hence, I was mightily pleased, and amazed, and grateful, when I found what I was looking for in the Christian East.
Thanks for letting me share in it !
--John
REAL CANDLES and PHYSICAL DEVOTION.
My maternal great grandparents and grandmother were Russian Orthodox. I was raised Roman Catholic and I was tiring of the abuses of the Vatican II Church so I decided to get back in touch with my roots. I brought my children of course. So let's look through the eyes of a child.
Real Candles....the kids flipped out...no more drop a dime in and watch the light come on...light a real candle became a spiritual act that was real and tangible.
Same with icons...they loved learning how properly venerate them...a physicality of devotion that is lost in the Novus Ordo Church.
After returning to Roman Catholic services my kids said, "that's it?"
That was just a brief sketch of what we love. I think this family is well on it's way to Byzantium.
Warm regards.
Welcome to the forum. Hope you are on your way to making this forum a home too.
May God grant you and your family many years of peace, health, and happiness as you explore and learn about the faith of your fathers.
Pani Rose
Dear John,
Interesting that you should mention the "Holy Spirit."
I became more focused on my own Byzantine tradition after doing a study involving Catholic Pentecostals or Charismatics.
That experience awakened me to the role of the Holy Spirit - and that led me to the Eastern Churches where I shed my Latinized ways (except the rosary, scapular, stations of the cross . . . )
I tell people that those devotions were first started in the East!
Alex
I thought to try to add something, but what I love about the Christian East has already been well documented by others far more eloquent than myself.
Dear Friends,
Ray's post was indeed most beautiful!
The various Eastern Catholic Churches, however, are only in recent decades beginning to fully rediscover themselves.
The idea of a multi-liturgical edifice united around Rome is also a contemporary notion - Orthodox and Catholic theologians have, in fact, formally condemned historic "uniatism."
We all agree that the Church, East and West should be united in accordance to mutually agreeable paradigms of unity.
In addition, the various EC Churches that are around also have their own issues with Rome that will need to be addressed separately in the ecumenical process.
It is that process and its current character that puts the full-flowering of the EC Churches on hold in a number of ways.
I would also suggest that the view of the Church that Ray has presented, beautiful though it is, is an ideal that we have not yet realized.
Alex
Most of what I like about the Eastern Catholic Churches - based on my admittedly very limited exposure is purely subjective.
#1 - I love the iconic art. The first time I saw icons, in shops in Tarpon Springs, FL (a pretty thriving Greek community) I thought, "Huh? Aren't those interesting." But seeing them in their proper context during the Divine Liturgy they are a very moving art form that forces one to focus not so much on the physical beauty of the object or talent of the artist as the spiritual beauty of the subject.
For instance, my favourite sculpture is Michaelangelo's "Pieta". But I am so often awed by the beauty of the object and amazed by the talent of the sculptor that I forget what it is that I am really looking at.
Iconic art has a way of drawing my attention beyond the physical and toward the spiritual.
#2 - The symbolic meaning of the Iconostatis. Especially since I live in an area where 98% of the Catholic parishes are newly built with no truly discernable boundary between the Sanctuary and the Nave. The physical boundary between the Sanctuary and the Nave is to me transcendent in its beauty and its meaning. Again drawing my attention more toward God.
#3 - The use of incense. None of the Latin parishes I've attended use incense, except on certain Holy Days of Obligation and some exceptional feast days.
#4 - The timelessness and beauty of the Divine Liturgy itself. I am not a big fan of much of the music used in many Novus Ordo Masses. It is a personal prference I admit. But I love the fact that the Divine Liturgy doesn't include the use of Contemporary Christian Music.
#5 - The fact that for some reason my mind wanders less during the Divine Liturgy than in the Novus Ordo Mass.
Again this is subjective and completely personal. But I find the number of things that seem to happen at once in the Novus Ordo Missae to be confusing and distracting. Like there are too many people in motion.
My daughter is also better behaved during the Divine Liturgy. I believe because she too is less distracted.
#6 - That the Sign of the Cross is made every time the Holy Trinity is mention.
#7 - The number of times the Mother of God is praised.
#8 - That receiving the Holy Eucharist in the hand is not even an option. But again this is strictly a matter of personal preference.
I know that almost all of these are subjective and they aren't anything "concrete" but these things I love because they enrich my spiritual life. They draw me closer to God, Father, Son and Holy Spirit. They lift my attention toward Heaven.
I truly believe that if I had known about the Eastern Churches before I converted that I would now be an Eastern Catholic and not a Roman Catholic.
Too bad I didn't take more time to find out about all of this a few years ago.
Ray, I am always overjoyed to meet someone who can really breathe with both lungs.
Many blessed years.
"Too bad I didn't take more time to find out about all of this a few years ago."
Dear Carole,
Yes, but you are finding out about it now! If you are more spiritually motivated by what you have found in the Eastern Church, then by all means pursue it. Your conversion to the Roman Church does not mean your faith journey ends there. Moving to a different church tradition is not something you must decide overnight. Over time your heart will tell you what you want to do and where you want to go. You have taken the first big step by entering one of the apostolic churches, now enjoy the journey and find which one you would like to call home.
In Christ, Bill
Originally posted by Bill from Pgh:
Dear Carole,
Yes, but you are finding out about it now! If you are more spiritually motivated by what you have found in the Eastern Church, then by all means pursue it. Your conversion to the Roman Church does not mean your faith journey ends there. Moving to a different church tradition is not something you must decide overnight. Over time your heart will tell you what you want to do and where you want to go. You have taken the first big step by entering one of the apostolic churches, now enjoy the journey and find which one you would like to call home.
In Christ, Bill
You make excellent points, Bill.
It is just that I have heard that it is difficult (if not nearly impossible in some places) to receive dispensation for a Roman Catholic to become an Eastern Catholic.
But the more I learn about the Eastern Churches and their traditions the more I am convinced that if I had but known then what I know now I would have chosen the Eastern spirituality from the beginning.
But I also know that God has a plan for me and I am learning about things in the order of His choosing.
Carole --
I was confirmed in the Roman Catholic Church in graduate school (having been baptized in the Lutheran Church in college). Ten or twelve years later, my husband (whom I met at the local Roman parish) and I switched rites to the Melkite church. We did this only after having worshipped at our new parish for a few years, only after talking at length with our spiritual advisers about our decision. It really is not very hard to do, but it also is not something that one should do in haste.
Blessings on your journey,
-- Penthaetria
I haven't yet read the other replies, figuring I'd like to give my own fresh thoughts prior to looking at everyone elses.
What do I like about the "Byzantine Rite" over the "Roman Rite"?
- greater amount of public prayer (i.e. liturgy in the technical sense). In the Latin Church, it's basically the Mass every day and the remainder is private (not that I object).
In the Byzantine parish I've been attending for the past year, there's Vespers Saturday evening, Orthros in the morning and the Divine Liturgy on Sunday. Now that' we're in the Great Lent there's LotPSG, Vespers, Great Compline, the Akathist, or Divine Liturgy EVERY day of the week.
It is true that it is entirely possible to have a public Vespers and Matins in a Latin Parish. Were I to stay Roman Rite, I would volunteer to help implement this. It's extremely uncommon, though. I know precisely one Parish out of the hundred or so I've visited that has any sort of regular Ve
- stronger focus on the Psalms, Bible, lives of Saints, etc. in the liturgy as a whole . In the Roman Mass of either the 1962 or 1970, there's a Collect, a reading (two in the 1970 Missal), the Gospel (two in the 1962 missal), the Preface, the Responsorial Psalm (1970 Missal) and finally the optional chanted/sung Propers, and finally the homily which address these issues. Beyond these, the Mass is fairly fixed.
In contrast, these kind of references are everywhere in the Byzantine liturgy. One Vespers I went to was effectively a catechesis on the Council of Nicea. The only way you'd get that in the Latin Rite is if the priest said an extra-long homily.
- a stronger historical, especially patristic focus This is something I like very much about the Byzantine Church. At the parish and dicoese level, the theology, devotions and reference of the Latin Church (at least in the Diocese I have been in) are, beyond the Bible, very much focused on recent events and theological concepts (generally the 1800s at the earliest). Not so in the Byzantine Church.
Things that I would miss if I the Latin rite suddenly disappeared tommorrow:
- the Roman Canon. For whatever reason, I really like this prayer (even though I've only "heard" it in the very interpretive English translation).
- Kneeling
- Credo III - yes it's really a "baroque" piece and not really Gregorian Chant, but still it's easily the catchiest musical setting of the Creed.
- Gregorian Chant - Fortunately however, I think the Roman and Greek Churches are equal in terms of music. Gregorian Chant and Byznatine Chant are good "foils" to each other. Renaissance polyphony finds its match in 19th century Russian (hah) polyphony. And fortunately, the Byzantine Church never fell in love with the 70s and its so-to-call-it "folk" music.
(for those that miss Gregorian Chant at their parish - why not find a priest who would support chant, go learn how to chant and start singing on Sundays!!).
Marc