www.byzcath.org
Posted By: Our Lady's slave Ukraine - 11/25/04 08:32 AM
For those who would wish to discuss the situation here I've started a new thread .

I really do not know enough about the political situation to do so.

All I know is what I have gathered from newspaper accounts
- that it is extremely complicated
- that by all accounts only one party thinks the voting was fair
- that the actual polling system was grossly flawed in some areaas
- that the people themselves seem to be divided.

What has really struck me most forcibly is the behaviour of the people in Independence Square - they are there - largely peacefully.

There is a Webcam showing the Square

http://webcam.inter.ua/ru/640x480.html

it can really only be used by someone with an on at all hours connection [ it takes too long to load for a dial up , pay by the minute connection - can take almost half an hour to load ] but it gives a good idea of the number of folk there - and remember that some will have been there since Saturday .

Anhelyna
Posted By: Ladyhawke1017 Re: Ukraine - 11/25/04 01:54 PM
Anhelyna,
I don't know too much of the details, but this situation seems to have started back when our own elections here were going on. Apparently there were some riots in the beginning and many were hurt. At the time I was struck by the irony of the whole situation, the whole world watching our elections while this was going on in the Ukraine, and I have been surprised that there hasn't been more about it on the forum, unless I've been missing it?

Vie
Posted By: Jean Francois Re: Ukraine - 11/25/04 02:00 PM
Victor Yanukovich:

Claims to have won election. The whole world knows it was won by using fraud. He wants to help reconstitute the Soviet Union. President Putin of Russia (the former KGB agent) seems to think this is o.k. and HAS ALREADY SENT RUSSIAN TROOPS TO UKRAINE. THEY ARE WEARING UKRAINIAN UNIFORMS AND HAVE NO DOCUMENTS ON THEM. THEY WILL HELP WITH THE COUP D'ETAT.


Victor Yustchenko:

All exit polls and 5000 foreign election observers believe that he is the winner (by wide margin) of the election. He wants to make Ukraine a European, democratic nation and not a corrupt province of the Russian Empire.


20,000 PEOPLE MARCHED IN THE STREETS OF UZHOROD IN SUPPORT OF VICTOR YUSTCHENKO (ORANGE COLOR). 15,000 STUDENTS IN ZAKARPATTIA ARE TAKING PART IN A GENERAL NATIONAL STRIKE.

IT'S NOT ABOUT ETHNICITY - IT'S ABOUT DEMOCRACY.

PRAY FOR DEMOCRACY IN UKRAINE !

PRAY FOR VICTOR YUSTCHENKO AND HIS 'OUR UKRAINE PARTY'

BETTER YET - ORGANIZE A PRO-YUSTCHENKO RALLY IN PITTSBURG OR ANYWHERE ELSE.

Here is a picture of the 20,000 people rallying for Yustchenko today in Uzhorod, the seat of the Greek Catholic Church in Zakarpattia.

Pro-Yustchenko (reform candidate) rally today in Uzhorod, Zakarpattia - Ukraine

There is some additional information about daily activities in English on:

MAIDAN.ORG.UA
(Note: see limited selection of articles in English)

BRAMA NEWS

UKRAINIAN GREEK CATHOLIC CHURCH
(Note: bishops are urging all greek catholics - including those in Pittsburg to demonstrate in solidarity with the people of good will in Ukraine)


PRAY FOR DEMOCRACY IN UKRAINE

PRAY FOR VICTOR YUSTCHENKO
Posted By: Our Lady's slave Re: Ukraine - 11/25/04 02:40 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Ladyhawke1017:
Anhelyna,
I don't know too much of the details, but this situation seems to have started back when our own elections here were going on. Apparently there were some riots in the beginning and many were hurt. At the time I was struck by the irony of the whole situation, the whole world watching our elections while this was going on in the Ukraine, and I have been surprised that there hasn't been more about it on the forum, unless I've been missing it?

Vie
It has only come up in the Prayer thread till now . I think there is a lot we do not know about it .

In some areas this last round of Voting was probably done by the book - but in others I fear [ and hear ] it was a case of Vote and then catch the blue bus to vote again elsewhere. There are even accusations of ink that became invisible !!

I don't think we will ever really know what has gone on.

Anhelyna
Posted By: father michael Re: Ukraine - 11/25/04 04:12 PM
The follwoing was just received from the UGCC in Ukraine:

At the initiative of the Christian Churches of Ukraine – Friday, 26 November 2004 has been proclaimed a Day of Common Fasting and Prayer for a better future for Ukraine.

I call all those, who are not indifferent to the future of Ukraine, to fast this day and at 18:00 Kyiv time (16:00 Greenwich) to join together in the common prayer “Our Father” for a better future for Ukraine, which will be prayed at that time in the central square of Ukraine, Independence Square in Kyiv.

Organizational Committee of the representatives of Christian Churches of Ukraine
Posted By: Our Lady's slave Re: Ukraine - 11/25/04 04:33 PM
Father Michael ,

Bless

Thank you for bringing this to our attention


Anhelyna
Posted By: JoeS Re: Ukraine - 11/25/04 04:45 PM
Just under the surface of the political melee in Ukraine I suspect a definit split of Western (UGCC) and Eastern (UOC-MP)as well. But this is just my opinion.

JoeS cool
Posted By: Our Lady's slave Re: Ukraine - 11/25/04 05:12 PM
From the UGCC Website

http://www.ugcc.org.ua/eng/press-releases/article;1119/

Divine Liturgy Is being Served in the Square for those who are there
Posted By: Our Lady's slave Re: Ukraine - 11/25/04 06:46 PM
Quote
Originally posted by JoeS:
Just under the surface of the political melee in Ukraine I suspect a definit split of Western (UGCC) and Eastern (UOC-MP)as well. But this is just my opinion.

JoeS cool
I have been asked to post this response to you by my source of information

Dear Joe,

I was in Ukraine as an observer this past weekend and I'm in frequent contact with people in Kyiv with links across the country. To put it bluntly - you are wrong.

From the UGCC perspective... Yuschenko carried 17 oblast - the UGCC is the majority Church in much less than half of the area. The UGCC also had the moral high ground during the campaign by only backing people doing their duty and voting, but not backing any one candidate.

The OUC-KP hasn't been as clear, at one point stating they will support whoever supports them. But in general, they stayed out of things.

The UOC-MP acted as an agent of Yanukovuch's team - plain and simple. But not the Church as a whole. Metropolitan Volodymr even stated that the Church should be above political races. Individual bishops and clergy, on the other hand, eagerly took their 30 pieces of silver.

Yes, religious and political lines, in some places, were co-terminous, but religion was not an issue. The issue is whether Ukraine faces West or East. History has greatly influenced who views which direction, and yes the Church has been involved as a promoter, but not a deciding factor.

The split in Ukraine today is drastic and sad enough already. Don't turn it into a religious conflict as well.

Official Observer, No. 3387
Posted By: JoeS Re: Ukraine - 11/25/04 08:06 PM
Let me ask just one question: If after an new count of votes are made and Yanukovuch is still to found to be the winner will western Ukraine accept this result or will they continue to disrupt businesses and the normal day-to-day commerce as is being done today???

JoeS
Posted By: JoeS Re: Ukraine - 11/25/04 08:08 PM
//The split in Ukraine today is drastic and sad enough already. Don't turn it into a religious conflict as well//

You give me too much credit, if religion takes a part in this it will be by the Ukrainians not me.

JoeS
Posted By: djs Re: Ukraine - 11/25/04 08:28 PM
JoeS:
Here's is what the US has been saying:
http://usinfo.state.gov/xarchives/d....6189997&t=dhr/democracy-latest.html

http://usinfo.state.gov/xarchives/d....4353601&t=dhr/democracy-latest.html

http://usinfo.state.gov/xarchives/d....5729181&t=dhr/democracy-latest.html

Quote
"We cannot accept this result as legitimate because it does not meet international standards and because there has not been an investigation of the numerous and credible reports of fraud and abuse."

"We call for a full review of the conduct of the election and the tallying of election results,"
Please note that the US view of the problem is not limited to incorrect tallying of votes. Thus the suggestion

Quote
If after an new count of votes are made and Yanukovuch is still to found to be the winner...
that a recount ought to be decisive for subsequent action is just completely out of touch with what the US, among others, hasd observed and is saying about the election.
Posted By: Gaudior Re: Ukraine - 11/25/04 08:31 PM
I wonder if Eastern Ukraine is treated to the same falsified TV images the Russians are?

Gaudior, who has never seen anything this contemptable since the now deposed Mr. Hussain announced he had 100% of the vote
Posted By: byzanTN Re: Ukraine - 11/25/04 08:34 PM
I just read this.
Pravda

I used to think U.S. politics could get nasty. Our politics are tame in comparison.
Posted By: djs Re: Ukraine - 11/25/04 08:39 PM
Quote
... I was struck by the irony of the whole situation, the whole world watching our elections while this was going on in the Ukraine ...
I guess I miss the irony. There has been considereable interest in the electionin Ukraine with extensive monitoring. That is why the US can confidently assert the illegitimancy of the election.

Neither can we assert that our election process is without problems - and thus shouldnot be monitored. We're certainly ahead of Ukraine - no one feels they can get away with poisioning their opponent here - but we could do a lot more for equal access and transparency. With sharp divisions, and closely contested elections, we really need to do better.
Posted By: djs Re: Ukraine - 11/25/04 08:46 PM
ByzTn:

Great link!
I really enjoyed the story on Boriska, the boy from Mars!

Reminds of Soviet-era saying:

There is no izvestia in Pravda; there is no pravda in Izvestia.
Posted By: JoeS Re: Ukraine - 11/26/04 01:20 AM
I think I can live with the results if after the courts order a new count and a winner is determined, but can the Ukrainians live with it? Time will tell whether either candidate can live both with the win or the loss. Will the courts in the end determine the winner if nothing is resolved by a new count?

JoeS
Posted By: byzanTN Re: Ukraine - 11/26/04 01:40 AM
Quote
Originally posted by JoeS:
I think I can live with the results if after the courts order a new count and a winner is determined, but can the Ukrainians live with it? Time will tell whether either candidate can live both with the win or the loss. Will the courts in the end determine the winner if nothing is resolved by a new count?

JoeS
Does anyone even know the contents of Ukrainian election law? I guess the next question would be, does the Ukrainian government follow its own laws?
Posted By: byzanTN Re: Ukraine - 11/26/04 01:50 AM
Here's something from the Ukrainian High Court.

Ukrainian Court
Posted By: KO63AP Re: Ukraine - 11/26/04 07:28 AM
Quote
Originally posted by byzanTN:
Does anyone even know the contents of Ukrainian election law? I guess the next question would be, does the Ukrainian government follow its own laws?
The laws weren't followed leading up to and during the election. Does that answer your second question?
Posted By: Our Lady's slave Re: Ukraine - 11/26/04 10:13 AM
Picked up from the BBC News page this morning
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4038409.stm
Quote
Monitors criticise conduct of Ukraine poll

International election monitors say they believe Ukraine's presidential poll was not fully free and fair.

Ukrainian election officials setting up a ballot box

The Central Election Commission "displayed a lack of will to conduct a genuine democratic election" is how the main body co-ordinating international monitors put it on the day after the poll.

Below are the key findings of the International Election Observation Mission, which had 563 observers in Ukraine.

They were sent by the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE), the EU parliament, the Council of Europe and Nato.

DURING THE CAMPAIGN

Favouring one candidate

"The abuse of state resources in favour of the prime minister demonstrated a widespread disregard for the fundamental distinction between the state and partisan political interests."

The state-funded media displayed "overt bias" which "continued to favour the prime minister in news presentation and coverage of the campaign".

Abuse of power

"Some citizens whose livelihood depends directly or indirectly upon the state were placed under duress to acquire and hand over to their superiors an absentee voting certificate".

"Observers reported that these documents were collected in the workplace on an organised basis."

Dubious data

The IEOM says the election was "compromised by significant shortcomings" including:

the inability of the local state executive to produce accurate voting lists
a lack of transparency in the tabulation of the first round results

the reluctance of the Central Election Commission (CEC) to grant relief on complaints, thus impeding legal redress

POLLING DAY

Intimidation

"Observers reported that...a significant number of polling stations commissions (PSC) members had been dismissed or ejected".

"Police were present in a majority of polling stations visited. In some instances unauthorised persons were interfering in or directing the process."

The IEOM reports that harassment was greater than it had been in the first round of voting the previous month, and worst in central and eastern Ukraine. These regions appear to be more strongly pro-government.

Extra votes

"A high number of votes - approximately 5% - were added to voter lists on election day. Almost all the added voters used absentee certificates."

Voters using absentee ballot certificates "were transported by bus in a number of regions".

Mystery votes

"Despite the suspiciously high turnout in some regions, overcrowding was reported by IEOM observers to be less of a problem in eastern regions than elsewhere."

The IEOM gives two examples of suspiciously high turnout. Both cities are in eastern Ukraine - 96.3% turnout in Donetsk and 88.4% in Lugansk.

"Far fewer voters were turned away from polling stations due to inaccuracies in the voter list during the second round than in the first round, but once again there was a regional variation, with fewer voters being turned away in the east".

VOTE COUNTING

Open to tampering

"Problems included lack of sufficient attention to ballot security and counting procedures. In almost half of polling stations, unauthorised persons were present, including police and local government officials."

"The last minute dismissals by Territorial Election Commissions (TECs) of hundreds of Polling Station Commissions appointed by the opposition in Kirovohrad, a key marginal region, and others in Donetsk, Zakarpattiya, Zaporizhia, Kyiv, Khmlenitsky, Odessa and Volyn, lessened transparency."
Posted By: byzanTN Re: Ukraine - 11/26/04 01:10 PM
More from AP on Ukraine.

Ukraine
Posted By: Ladyhawke1017 Re: Ukraine - 11/26/04 02:02 PM
Quote
Originally posted by byzanTN:
I just read this.
Pravda

I used to think U.S. politics could get nasty. Our politics are tame in comparison.
Wow...and I thought the stuff going on in the editorial pages in our newspapers was rough...

Vie
Posted By: JoeS Re: Ukraine - 11/26/04 02:04 PM
An opposing view from the Eastern part of Ukraine:

Russian Political Scientist Blames Polish Conspiracy for Ukraine Election Crisis
Created: 25.11.2004 17:30 MSK (GMT +3), Updated: 17:30 MSK , 6 hours 2 minutes ago


MosNews

Renowned Russian political scientist Sergei Markov told reporters in Moscow on Thursday that the ongoing political crisis in Ukraine was in fact a Polish conspiracy with the aim of imposing Polish patronage over Ukraine and thus raising Polish influence within the European Union.

"Yushchenko's electoral campaign has been developed within the Polish diaspora abroad and its ideological basis was prepared by former U.S. national security adviser Zbigniew Brzezinski and his two sons," the Newsru.com web-site quoted Markov as saying.

Markov said that another ethnic Pole, Andrian Karatnitsky, the head of the U.S. foundation Freedom House, had hired Serbian spin doctors and brought them to Ukraine ahead of the presidential elections. (Another Russian political scientist, Gleb Pavlovsky, said in a Wednesday evening news broadcast on Russia's RTR television channel that Yushchenko's campaign had been prepared by the same specialists who prepared similar campaigns in Serbia and Georgia).

"The arrival of Lech Walesa and Aleksander Kwasniewski as intermediaries in the Ukraine negotiations would become a part of the Tbilisi-Belgrade scenario, as the objective of these intermediaries is not peace, but a passing of power to Yushchenko," Markov said.

He added that the original plan is for Poland to impose its patronage over Ukraine. Polish politicians are seeking more influence within the European Union, currently dominated by France and Germany, and to achieve this, they want to become patrons of the whole of Central and Eastern Europe, the Russian analyst said.

Markov said the United States would benefit from a Yushchenko victory as it would weaken Germany and France on the world arena and also split Ukraine and Russia. He also added that "the majority of the representatives of the Polish diaspora in the United States hate George Bush and want to cause a quarrel between him and Russian President Vladimir Putin".

Markov also said that the main drawback of the plan was that its implementation was possible only on condition of extreme secrecy. He reminded the press that due to historical reasons the Ukrainians are very suspicious of the Poles and such a plan would find widespread disapproval among the majority of Ukrainians.

JoeS
Posted By: Ladyhawke1017 Re: Ukraine - 11/26/04 02:07 PM
Quote
Originally posted by djs:
Quote
... I was struck by the irony of the whole situation, the whole world watching our elections while this was going on in the Ukraine ...
I guess I miss the irony. There has been considereable interest in the electionin Ukraine with extensive monitoring. That is why the US can confidently assert the illegitimancy of the election.

Neither can we assert that our election process is without problems - and thus shouldnot be monitored. We're certainly ahead of Ukraine - no one feels they can get away with poisioning their opponent here - but we could do a lot more for equal access and transparency. With sharp divisions, and closely contested elections, we really need to do better.
Maybe irony was the wrong word to use...it's just that so many here were polarized during this past election: blue states, red states, liberal, conservative, that sort of thing. Yet thru it all, it was all peaceful and at the end, while harsh words were spoken on both sides, most people just got back down to the business of living their lives. Even in 2000, when the whole Florida mess came up, everything was peaceful...I look at what is happening in the Ukraine and realize(probably for the millionith time)that things here are so much better than than I sometimes think they are.

Vie
Posted By: Gaudior Re: Ukraine - 11/26/04 03:34 PM
I quite agree with Vie...

Ukrainians are already talking about a "Chestnut Revolution". Everything seems peaceful, but some shots were fired over the heads of those assembled to show support for Yushchenko. It could get very ugly. The US Department of State has issued a warning to Americans not to travel in Ukraine, and, if they must, to avoid the protests.

Gaudior, who prays for a peaceful resolution, and hopes Yushchenko doesn't accept any food or drink at the meeting with Kuchma.
Posted By: djs Re: Ukraine - 11/26/04 04:10 PM
Vie,
I understand your point better. But monitoring elections is about probing whether they are "free and fair", not about maintaining/securing peace in the aftermath.

I think that no American, would, for example, have accept allowing any foreign troops here to oversee the election process. In Ukraine - I have read from an on-the-scene blog, that Russian troops had been invited into and are present in Kiev. I wonder - JoeS - are there any Polish, American, EU troops there? How clever for the russian propagandists to play the Polish card!
Posted By: Gaudior Re: Ukraine - 11/26/04 04:42 PM
Dear djs,

News sources have also reported it...Mind, they are Russian Special Forces dressed in Ukrainian Army uniforms...Must be a Polish plot eek

Gaudior, who thinks that the pro-government partisans are really reaching in their fiction writing...
Posted By: JoeS Re: Ukraine - 11/26/04 04:45 PM
As long as PM Kuchma (sp?)is in the driver seat admitting Russian troops is his option. When Yuschenko gets in he will remove them just like he will remove Ukraine troops from Iraq. I just find it interesting that it is OK for the U.S. and western Europe especially Poland and Lithuania to be allowed their opinions and the state that borders Ukraine, Russia is not thats all.

JoeS (who feels no matter who wins there will be no peace in Ukraine)
Posted By: djs Re: Ukraine - 11/26/04 06:01 PM
Quote
I just find it interesting that it is OK for the U.S. and western Europe especially Poland and Lithuania to be allowed their opinions and the state that borders Ukraine, Russia is not thats all.
:rolleyes:
They are allowed to have their opinion. They are allowed to voice it. They can even expect for their views to be heard and considered. They simply do not have a right to expect that others must believe them. That's all.
Posted By: Amadeus Re: Ukraine - 11/26/04 06:09 PM
I am just nitpicking! wink

Although Poland and Lithuania are both predominatnly Roman Catholic, geographically they form part of Eastern Europe.

Either or both countries might be considered pro-Western after (and before?) the fall of Soviet communism and that seems to be JoeS' point.

Amado
Posted By: djs Re: Ukraine - 11/26/04 06:15 PM
What is the point?
Quote
Posted By: JoeS Re: Ukraine - 11/26/04 06:17 PM
I would gather a guess that the extent of western influence on the Ukraine elections will only be known after all the dust settles if it settles at all. The U.S. and some western countries do, in fact, interfere a lot into other governments whether we like it or not. Whether this interference is a good thing all the time I will leave this up to the reader. But I’m sure you would be hearing cries of foul play if this were to happen in the U.S. by those who don’t want their elections interfered with. What is good for the goose may not be good for the gander? The U.S. has always touted that she has a duty to protect her national interests AND BORDERS when she gets involved in other nations. What is so wrong for Russia to feel that this steady encroachment by not only the U.S. but by NATO and EU may also be a threat to her national security? Isn’t she allowed the same concerns as the U.S. or do we think we have the answers to all the world’s problems? I’m sure if the tables were reversed the U.S. would be foul play. Might makes right I guess.

JoeS
Posted By: Amadeus Re: Ukraine - 11/26/04 06:27 PM
The point?

Poland and Lithuania ARE in Eastern Europe, a correction of Joe's:

Quote
I just find it interesting that it is OK for the U.S. and western Europe especially Poland and Lithuania to be allowed their opinions and the state that borders Ukraine, Russia is not thats all
JoeS must have been referring to the "pro-Western" stance of both countries despite their Eastern European heritage.

Amado
Posted By: JoeS Re: Ukraine - 11/26/04 06:28 PM
Amado,

That is affirmative.

JoeS

//JoeS must have been referring to the "pro-Western" stance of both countries despite their Eastern European heritage.

Amado//
Posted By: Our Lady's slave Re: Ukraine - 11/26/04 07:45 PM
Quote
Originally posted by JoeS:
I would gather a guess that the extent of western influence on the Ukraine elections will only be known after all the dust settles if it settles at all. The U.S. and some western countries do, in fact, interfere a lot into other governments whether we like it or not. Whether this interference is a good thing all the time I will leave this up to the reader. But I’m sure you would be hearing cries of foul play if this were to happen in the U.S. by those who don’t want their elections interfered with. What is good for the goose may not be good for the gander? The U.S. has always touted that she has a duty to protect her national interests AND BORDERS when she gets involved in other nations. What is so wrong for Russia to feel that this steady encroachment by not only the U.S. but by NATO and EU may also be a threat to her national security? Isn’t she allowed the same concerns as the U.S. or do we think we have the answers to all the world’s problems? I’m sure if the tables were reversed the U.S. would be foul play. Might makes right I guess.

JoeS
Umm - I can't help wondering here

Are you protecting your borders if you send Special Forces in to another country by air and by train and by road - when they have not been invited by the Government of the other country ?

This is what has happened in Ukraine
Posted By: KO63AP Re: Ukraine - 11/26/04 07:46 PM
Myths and Truths of the tent city

Article only in Ukrainian so far. It debunks the following myths:
1) There is no order in the tent city
2) There's not enough food. People are starving
3) People nearly freezing to death
4) There are no representatives from the East
5) Nearly everyone leaves at night

The article ends with some nice quotes from the camp, including two lads addressing camp security (in Russian): "We voted for Yanukovych... what can we do to help? We want to make good!"
Posted By: Zenovia Re: Ukraine - 11/26/04 07:52 PM
Quote
JoeS must have been referring to the "pro-Western" stance of both countries despite their Eastern
European heritage.

Amado
Dear Amado,

I recall the fear among Eastern European nations, that NATO was drawing lines in the sand. They were basically dividing Europe. The Catholic and Protestant countries were in, the Orthodox were out.

I recall reading a quote, (can't remember the title of the book), from an Orthodox monk that stated the West wants to destroy the Orthodox faith. Now at first glance, I thought of it as rediculous, and just more Orthodox paranoia. But then I reconsidered it from a more objective viewpoint.

There is a cultural divide between the Catholic and Protestant West and the Orthodox East. One might not say it is a war between the Churches, but the Churches do form personality differences in their participants, as well as allegiances to those that are similar to them. So, taking this into account, the monk might not have been too far off.

Also, let's consider Russia's viewpoint. She see's all these Western allegiances facing who? Russia of course. In her viewpoint, we are still perceiving her as the 'enemy'.

So all the actions of the (Protestant and Catholic) nations that were part of the Soviet Union, wanting Europe to accept them into NATO and the EU, mainly for protection, are now causing Russia to restart her nuclear programs.

I think the Ukraine is another extension of that problem. What a pity, considering the secularism that has become rampant in Europe, and the constant threat of militant Islam.

Zenovia
Posted By: Amadeus Re: Ukraine - 11/26/04 08:21 PM
Zenovia:

Your thesis that NATO is preventing Eastern European countries (formerly of the Soviet Bloc) from membership, especially those countries with Orthodox majority, appears to be imaginary.

Of the 26 member-nations, the following countries from Eastern Europe, with Orthodox majority, are now members of NATO: Bulgaria and Romania.

Of course, Greece, an overwhelmingly Orthodox country, is a member as well as muslim Turkey.

And then there are: the Czech Republic, Estonia, Latvia, Slovenia, and Slovakia, which have significant Orthodox populations.

I think there is a standing NATO offer to Russia for membership as well.

I can't agree with your observations.

Amado
Posted By: djs Re: Ukraine - 11/27/04 12:45 AM
JoeS:
Are you suggesting a moral equivalence here?
What has the US done to countries that share its borders that could possibly compare with the actions within Ukraine directed from Moscow - like 20 million starved to death, for starters. What?
Posted By: djs Re: Ukraine - 11/27/04 12:55 AM
For those who like "statistics", the blog I've been reading has a nice map:
(Warning: the language at this site gets very rough.)
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/11/26/155033/85

It's clear by the way, that while the couple of oblasts that are predominantly UGCC were very strongly Y-ko, there are many areas that in which GCs are a scarce minority that are still strongly Y-ko. Interestingly, Kiev is 75:20 Y-ko over Y-vych. The cultural divding line is much further West than I had previously thought.
Posted By: Jean Francois Re: Ukraine - 11/27/04 01:15 AM
Quote
Originally posted by JoeS:
Russian Political Scientist Blames Polish Conspiracy for Ukraine Election Crisis
Polish media has been completely overtaken by the events in Ukraine. The overall Polish concensus is: this is our chance to atone for all our historical sins towards the Ukrainians. We will do everything possible to help them escape Putin's Russian mob nightmare.

I.F.
Posted By: djs Re: Ukraine - 11/27/04 01:16 AM
Sorry, much further EAST.
Posted By: Jean Francois Re: Ukraine - 11/27/04 01:34 AM
Quote
Originally posted by djs:
For those who like "statistics", the blog I've been reading has a nice map:
(Warning: the language at this site gets very rough.)
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2004/11/26/155033/85

It's clear by the way, that while the couple of oblasts that are predominantly UGCC were very strongly Y-ko, there are many areas that in which GCs are a scarce minority that are still strongly Y-ko. Interestingly, Kiev is 75:20 Y-ko over Y-vych. The cultural divding line is much further West than I had previously thought.
The map is fiction.

5 of the 9 Eastern regions where the UGCC is about 1% of the population are in complete revolt in spite of the media beign under the control of the mob. People are not stupid.

The main cities of these zones (Oblasts) Kharkiv, Khersson, Zaporizhia, Mykolayiv, and Dnipropetrovsk have daily rallies with 80 - 90,000 people. Prime Minister Yanukovych tried to have himself declared president in Dnipropetrovsk yesterday and he was chased out of town. He always claimed this was one of his strongholds in the East. The only people that come to Kiev to support Yanukovich are either paid demonstrators or employees of companies who are forced to come to the capital city. The Moscow times did a great piece on this recently.

As of yesterday the reporter's union refused to present propaganda on the news so the Eastern zones (Oblasts) of the country stopped airing the news.

The only hope for president Kuchma and his hand picked replacement is a military coup d'etat. Russia has sent special forces into Kiev for this reason. A military crackdown is their only chance at this point.

Mikhail Gorbatchev (former premier of the USSR) has spoken in support of Yustchenko as has the leader of the opposition of the Russian Parliment.

I.F.
Posted By: Jean Francois Re: Ukraine - 11/27/04 01:41 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Gaudior:
I quite agree with Vie...

Ukrainians are already talking about a "Chestnut Revolution". Everything seems peaceful, but some shots were fired over the heads of those assembled to show support for Yushchenko. It could get very ugly. The US Department of State has issued a warning to Americans not to travel in Ukraine, and, if they must, to avoid the protests.

Gaudior, who prays for a peaceful resolution, and hopes Yushchenko doesn't accept any food or drink at the meeting with Kuchma.
Yustchenko was a very good looking man. This was part of his appeal. They secret police under comrade Putin's directives poisoned him with Digoxin and it disfigured him completely. The journal NATURE recently had an article about this. This was part of a strategic plan to ruin him and win the election for Moscow.

I.F.
Posted By: Jean Francois Re: Ukraine - 11/27/04 01:44 AM
Quote
Originally posted by JoeS:
I would gather a guess that the extent of western influence on the Ukraine elections will only be known after all the dust settles if it settles at all. The U.S. and some western countries do, in fact, interfere a lot into other governments whether we like it or not. Whether this interference is a good thing all the time I will leave this up to the reader. But I’m sure you would be hearing cries of foul play if this were to happen in the U.S. by those who don’t want their elections interfered with. What is good for the goose may not be good for the gander? The U.S. has always touted that she has a duty to protect her national interests AND BORDERS when she gets involved in other nations. What is so wrong for Russia to feel that this steady encroachment by not only the U.S. but by NATO and EU may also be a threat to her national security? Isn’t she allowed the same concerns as the U.S. or do we think we have the answers to all the world’s problems? I’m sure if the tables were reversed the U.S. would be foul play. Might makes right I guess.

JoeS
THE URKAINIAN PEOPLE HAVE THE RIGHT TO DETERMINE THEIR DESTINY. 5000 FOREIGN OBSERVERS STATED THAT THE ELECTION WAS STOLEN FROM THEM. THEIR DESTINY WAS STOLEN BY THE FORMER KGB AGENT PUTIN AND HIS RUSSIAN MAFIA.

I.F.
Posted By: iconophile Re: Ukraine - 11/27/04 01:53 AM
JF- Uh, it is rude to shout...
Posted By: Jean Francois Re: Ukraine - 11/27/04 01:53 AM
Quote
Originally posted by JoeS:
As long as PM Kuchma (sp?)is in the driver seat admitting Russian troops is his option. When Yuschenko gets in he will remove them just like he will remove Ukraine troops from Iraq. I just find it interesting that it is OK for the U.S. and western Europe especially Poland and Lithuania to be allowed their opinions and the state that borders Ukraine, Russia is not thats all.

JoeS (who feels no matter who wins there will be no peace in Ukraine)
Only the Ukrainian Parliment (Verkhovna Rada) has the right to ask foreign troups on to the sovereign territory of the country. THERE HAS NEVER BEEN A REQUEST FOR RUSSIAN MILITARY ASSISTANCE FROM THE UKRAINIAN PARLIMENT. The special Russian troups were sent into Ukraine for the illegal coup d'etat.

Poland sees itself as an equal to Ukraine and wishes that the two countries can be partners in a new Europe. Russia wants to continue it's colonial rule in Ukraine.

I.F.
Posted By: byzanTN Re: Ukraine - 11/27/04 02:08 AM
At least they are still talking and not yet shooting at each other. That's a hopeful sign.
more Ukraine
Posted By: Zenovia Re: Ukraine - 11/27/04 04:41 AM
I stated in a previous post, that in the eyes of the Russians, the Soviet Union might be gone, but we continue to see them as the 'enemy'.

In the past, the NATO borders ended where Orthodoxy began. Because of complaints, they are now ending, or at least trying to end their borders, where the Russian one's begin. To verify that, I give you the following quote:
Quote


The overall Polish concensus is:
this is our chance to atone for all our historical sins towards the Ukrainians. We will do everything
possible to help them escape Putin's Russian mob nightmare.

I.F.
I realize that Western influence in Eastern Europe, and now specifically the Ukraine, is purely to please and pacify the fears of the Eastern European countries. Yet, to Russia, it does appear as a threat. Is it any wonder that she is now restarting her nuclear program.

What a pity! Especially when we should be concentrating on the terrorists and their desire for Islamic expansionism.


Zenovia
Posted By: Jean Francois Re: Ukraine - 11/27/04 04:55 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Zenovia:
I realize that Western influence in Eastern Europe, and now specifically the Ukraine, is purely to please and pacify the fears of the Eastern European countries. Yet, to Russia, it does appear as a threat. Is it any wonder that she is now restarting her nuclear program.

What a pity! Especially when we should be concentrating on the terrorists and their desire for Islamic expansionism.
The 25 members of the European Union have not been so united on a single issue in years - 'Ukraine is European'. Today the EU has announced that they are now for the first time officialy reviewing Ukraine's speedy entry into the European Union - hoorah !

Recent news articles have noted the NATO alliance and other Western nations (Australia, Japan, Argentina, etc...) unanimity and solidarity on the issue of democracy in Ukraine.

Ukraine sees itself as an Orthodox Christian nation but pluralistic at the same time. It has made peace with it's 2 million muslims (4% of the total population), and unlike Russia has not had problems with terrorists.

George Bush understands that his policies and reputation concerning democracy in Iraq will be greatly helped or eroded depending on how he deals with the events in Ukraine.

Please pray for the democratic forces in Ukraine.

I.F.
Posted By: Our Lady's slave Re: Ukraine - 11/27/04 07:27 PM
An update which was posted on BBC News at 15.26 GMT today

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4047421.stm

Ukrainian MPs reject election result

Thousands of opposition supporters are camped outside the building

Ukraine's parliament has declared last Sunday's presidential poll invalid.

MPs backed a resolution saying the result of the run-off election was "at odds with the will of the people".

Prime Minister Viktor Yanukovych was declared the winner, but challenger Viktor Yushchenko has alleged fraud and refused to accept the result.

While the parliament cannot overturn the result, its views may carry weight with the supreme court, which meets on Monday to examine the fraud claims.

The parliament met in emergency session in the capital Kiev to discuss the crisis, and its proceedings were broadcast live on all national TV channels and to thousands of opposition protesters gathered outside the building.

A majority of MPs also passed a vote of no-confidence in the country's Central Elections Commission, which like the other vote was not legally binding.

Before the vote, parliamentary speaker Volodymyr Lytvyn told MPs the most realistic solution would be to invalidate the poll.

"The logical issue to be raised is to declare the election politically invalid because the true will of the people is now impossible to establish," he said.

Dutch Foreign Minister Ben Bot - speaking for the European Union - said the "ideal outcome" would be to hold new elections.

Mr Bot told reporters in The Hague that a new poll should take place before the end of the year.

The EU's foreign policy chief, Javier Solana, who has been taking part in mediation efforts in Kiev, has described last Sunday's vote as fraudulent, adding that future relations with Ukraine depend on a democratic resolution.........


This announcement has also been carried on Channel 5 TV in Ukraine. [ this was picked up in London and relayed to me as well ]

The crowds are still there in Independence Square as they have been since Sunday - and it must be pointed out that the weather is not good.

Tomorrow is Sunday - please let us all pray that there will be a peaceful outcome to this.

I will offer prayers and candles at my Mass tomorrow.

Will you do the same ?

Anhelyna
Posted By: JoeS Re: Ukraine - 11/27/04 07:52 PM
Ukraine - Another story:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/ukraine/story/0,15569,1360951,00.html

This is meant to inform the uninformed as to the arguments on the "other side". Regardless of what one's personal opinion is of what is going on in Ukraine it is always good to know, for better or worse, the opinions of those who are cast off as undesirables.

JoeS
Posted By: Our Lady's slave Re: Ukraine - 11/27/04 07:53 PM
I have just found this on Ukrayinska Pravda [ in English of course biggrin ]

http://www2.pravda.com.ua/en/archive/2004/november/24/4.shtml

How Yanukovich Forged the Elections. Headquarters’ Telephone Talks Intercepted


translated by Antony Leovin , 24.11.2004, 17:25

High security officials have transmitted some audio files and paper copies of the talks of the representatives of Viktor Yanukovich’s shadow headquarters to Yushchenko’s headquarters.

These data evidence that during the two election rounds the voting and counting processes were entirely controlled by Yanukovich’s headquarters.

Yanukovich’s team has insensibly reached the expected result through using absentee certificates, secret and home voting, etc.

They compared the quantity of absentee certificates, outer voting and other forgery technologies to the exit-poll results, and thus were beforehand aware of the outcomes up to hundredths of one per cent.

Below you will find only three uncensored talks which took place on the day of the second round. Yushchenko’s headquarters have promised to publish those files within some hours.

21 November 2004. 5:59 p.m.

Levenets’ (Yanukovich’s spin-doctor): How are you?

Anonym: Up to now we have the data for 2:30 p.m. Yet we are behind by 1.46.

Levenets’: Is that for the whole unit?

Anonym: We have interrogated 6.700, i.e., 60% of our sampling. As far as I understand the trend is now to take our direction because the whole village has voted. We’ll be gaining.

Levenets’: When are we going to have the approximate data?

Anonym: After seven o’clock. We have agreed now we are to do that by six.

Levenets’: By six we must have positive results. Guess you are in connection with Edik, aren’t you?

Anonym: Yes, I am. At what time shall it come out?

Levenets’: At 6:00 p.m. the preliminary results must be in our favour.

Anonym: We have an agreement with him that I should give him the actual results, he gives operation factors… We need about half an hour. No, wait. We are only to finish at 6:00 p.m. So probably at 7:00 p.m. After 7:00 p.m. I will give the actual results. We’ll settle the operation factors and achieve the factors we need in all regions.

Levenets’: All right.

21 November 2004. 7:05 p.m.

Levenets’: Hi! So what… How are you?

Valery: Nothing to boast of. We’re in minus.

Levenets’: What do you mean?

Valery: Our opponent has got 48.37, we have only 47.64.

Levenets’: Is that by 6:00 p.m.

Valery: We have agreed that the difference should be some 3-3.5 per cent in our favour. Now we have the table for the regions. In 15 or 20 minutes we fax it.

Levenets’. How many people had you interrogated by 6:00 p.m.?

Valery: 10612

Levenets’: It that the "real"?

Valery: Yes. Shall we place these data on the site? Or shall we pass them to Interfax least we should appear on the TV.

Levenets’: Call up Prutnik, these matters are in his competence.

Valery: Guess we should speed up the administrative measures in order to shun eventual troubles.

Levenets’. Got it. Well, hear you later.

21 November 2004. 7:34 p.m.

An anonym is telling Sergiy Kluev, brother of boss of Yanukovich’s shadow headquarters Andriy Kluev, that they have "raised for 30% in an hour in the Kiev Polytechnic Institute.”

Anonym: We have started driving students in slippers out. Teachers have taken their place by the gate. “Let no strangers in.”

Kluev: Let’s send our assault group there.

Anonym: Already sent.

Kluev. Then let’s manage a scuffle there or something in the way.

Anonym: Already in process.

22 November 2004. 5:30 a.m.

Levenets’: How are you? What? Kiev is rioting…

Anonym: My situation is as follows: roughly speaking, I have gathered 18.2 per cent for our contender and 76 for Yushchenko.

Levenets’: Have you counted all?

Anonym: All counted and I have the following to do...

Levenets’: Have you got all protocols with you?

Anonym: I have everything with me. But the Central Election Commission has put aside seven protocols, as I commanded them. I have to find out whether to foil them or not.

Levenets’: Have you the reasons to foil?

Anonym: I have.

Levenets’: So what’s the trouble?

Anonym: The indices will go down, though the balance is negative, of course.
Levenets’: Hell with those indices. The balance will be better.

Anonym: Sure.

Levenets’: Well, no more questions. Do that.

Anonym: Got it. Now I’ll try.

Levenets’: No problem. We are leading. You increase our balance, we just broaden the difference.

These are just several talks generously given to Yushchenko’s representatives. In general, the records now in possession of Yushchenko’s headquarters contain the talks between the representatives of Yanukovich’s shadow headquarters from the 30th of October up to this day.

The records contain voices of Medvedchuk, Kivalov, Kluev brothers, Tsariov, Liovochkin and Prutnik.

Oleg Rybachuk, the head of Viktor Yushchenko’s office, stated that those talks would be published in the nearest future. Moreover, they were being prepared to be transferred to international institutes, foreign embassies and NGOs.

People’s deputy asserted he was then preparing requests to the General Office of Public Prosecutor and to the Security Office of Ukraine demanding either to explain, refute or ascertain the authenticity of the records.

Rybachuk especially emphasized that the person who had given the records to Yushchenko’s representatives was in a secure place. The person was ready to take part in a trial and had an unwavering purpose to ascertain the authenticity of those records before the court.
Posted By: Our Lady's slave Re: Ukraine - 11/27/04 08:47 PM
dear Friends,

I have just been asked to post something for one of our Canadian Members - he can't remember his password so has asked me to do it for him

NO - it's not Alex - honest it's not smile You will see that the area of Canada is totally different.

Cabbage received this e-mail from his Priest today

Christ is in our midst!

 I am sure you are all aware of the political unrest in Ukraine at this time. Simply from the point of justice and freedom, this is an important issue for the global community. However, it has other, even more critical implications, as well. When Vladimir Putin was elected president of Russia, he said that one of his goals was to rebuild the old Soviet block. After Russia, Ukraine is a largest of the former Soviet republics; Mr. Putin cannot fulfill his plans without Ukraine, and he and his supporters will stop at nothing to keep Ukraine under their influence. (As one person pointed out to me: Everyone that has played the board game Risk [even Jerry Seinfeld] knows that you have to own Ukraine to win).

 Russia and the Kremlin-backed politicians of Ukraine have never lost their distrust for the west, especially America, which dates back to the days of the USSR. Just last week, Putin announced that Russia is restarting their nuclear weapons program, with the goal of creating new weapons capable of overcoming the USA's proposed network of strategic defense satellites. If the pro-Russian side prevails in this falsified Ukrainian election, the world could be heading towards another Cold War. (Been there, done that... don't want to go there again-especially not with my children.)

 This is not just a local issue for Ukraine or people of Ukrainian descent. This is a global issue, and it requires all of our prayers. To this end the Winnipeg Deanery of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada will be celebrating a prayer service for the situation in Ukraine at 10:00 AM tomorrow morning at Holy Trinity Cathedral, 1175 Main St. If you have the time please come out and offer your prayers.


Anhelyna - who seems to be doing a lot of posting for other folk at present

PS = Fr Andrew did add the reason for this e-mail and I will make it in a separate post
Posted By: Our Lady's slave Re: Ukraine - 11/27/04 09:25 PM
Friends - this is the e-mail that Fr Andrew received which triggered off his e-mail to his parishioners - and each one received this as well - I find it very thought provoking.

To put all of this in perspective, here is an email that I received earlier today:
 

AN ANALOGY

Imagine if... there was an election in Canada and the mafia ran a political party and made Tony Soprano its candidate.

What if... the CBC, CTV, Global, the Globe and Mail, Star, National Post and every other TV, radio station and newspaper were told to support Mr. Soprano and instructed to ignore or denigrate his opponent.

Consider if... the superpower next door (which in our case the US and in Ukraine's case Russia), decided to finance and support Mr. Soprano's campaign to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars
but you know that the US President and Mr. Soprano are actually colluding and the plan is for the Americans to get our water, oil and resources and to one day take over the country.

Picture...your boss calling you in and telling you that unless you vote for Mr. Soprano, you will lose your job your brother was beaten by the local mafia capo for wearing a button supporting your candidate

Imagine if...despite all of this manipulation, media bias, foreign meddling and intimidation - you still vote for your candidate, and so do the majority of Canadians

Except...
Mr. Soprano's people control the entire election apparatus and commit a massive fraud - stuffing ballot boxes, beating or killing his opponent's supporters and giving his people millions of absentee ballots in one province, the voter turn out was 104%, and everyone voted for Mr. Soprano.

Incensed...
you and a million other Canadians flock to Parliament Hill in Ottawa in freezing temperatures to protest and hope for a velvet revolution to overturn the results. even though there are thousands of riot police and soldiers in Ottawa, you are confident that your fellow Canadians will not shoot you (and suspect that they may have voted for the same person you did) but there are reliable rumours that the United States has sent troops who will not hesitate to pump you full of bullets

Imagine that...
despite all this, you are buoyant, positive, up-beat and optimistic, but absolutely committed that the criminally corrupt politicians and the neighbouring superpower will not steal your election, your sovereignty or your destiny. you and millions of your countrymen love a politician and everything that he stands for enough to spend four days and nights in sub-zero temperatures and risk your life to fight for his rightful victory (how rare!)

Not that they ever would, but if the Americans were to pull these kind of shenanigans in Canada, what would the rest of the world do? We sure would appreciate their help wouldn't we?


I have to say - I think this is a splendid analogy
Posted By: Gaudior Re: Ukraine - 11/27/04 09:29 PM
BRAVO, Fr. Andrew!

Prayers for Ukraine, as her situation does affect the rest of the world.

Gaudior, definitely and decidedly in favour of Yushchenko.
Posted By: JoeS Re: Ukraine - 11/27/04 09:50 PM
Ukraine - Another story II:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,5673,1360296,00.html

For those who dare to read,

JoeS
Posted By: JoeS Re: Ukraine - 11/27/04 09:55 PM
I feel like I am a voice crying in the wilderness. I know, Im a guest and I should know that I am greatly outnumbered here which is understandable. But what a great feeling you get when the you are a lonely voice trying to get the other side of the argument out in plain language to read.

JoeS cool
Posted By: Our Lady's slave Re: Ukraine - 11/27/04 10:11 PM
Quote
Originally posted by JoeS:
I feel like I am a voice crying in the wilderness. I know, Im a guest and I should know that I am greatly outnumbered here which is understandable. But what a great feeling you get when the you are a lonely voice trying to get the other side of the argument out in plain language to read.

JoeS cool
JoeS - a quick question - do you approve of a country putting it's troops into another unasked - and once they arrive make them strip their uniforms off and dress them in the uniform of the 'host' country .

It has happened - they have been seen
Posted By: byzanTN Re: Ukraine - 11/27/04 10:44 PM
Quote
Originally posted by JoeS:
I feel like I am a voice crying in the wilderness. I know, Im a guest and I should know that I am greatly outnumbered here which is understandable. But what a great feeling you get when the you are a lonely voice trying to get the other side of the argument out in plain language to read.

JoeS cool
Feel free to tell me if I am misinterpreting this. But it sounds like you are saying that Ukraine is a fragmented country, and the differing sides don't have all that much in common. It sounds like there are some real and very significant differences between the sides.
Posted By: JoeS Re: Ukraine - 11/27/04 11:00 PM
I must approve for I live in the good ole U.S.A.

'nough said,

JoeS
Posted By: JoeS Re: Ukraine - 11/27/04 11:02 PM
YES, you could say this. You can disagree but this I believe.

JoeS

//Feel free to tell me if I am misinterpreting this. But it sounds like you are saying that Ukraine is a fragmented country, and the differing sides don't have all that much in common. It sounds like there are some real and very significant differences between the sides.//
Posted By: Jean Francois Re: Ukraine - 11/27/04 11:27 PM
Quote
Originally posted by JoeS:
YES, you could say this. You can disagree but this I believe.

JoeS

//Feel free to tell me if I am misinterpreting this. But it sounds like you are saying that Ukraine is a fragmented country, and the differing sides don't have all that much in common. It sounds like there are some real and very significant differences between the sides.//
"You are misinterpreting this".

Ukrainians have never been more united in their history. Most news analysts in Ukraine are stating that this is "the true birth of the nation". Except for the Donbass region where people are either paid or harassed to attend Yanukovych rallies, his do not attract people.

Yuschenko rallies on the other hand are growing daily, not just in Kiev and in the West, but in ALL Eastern Regions.

The article you posted above is unique and just does not seem to reflect reality. Obviously someone has an agenda.

Russia's biggest concern is no longer the loss of the region, but that the 'orange revolution' will spill into Belarus and Russia proper.

All of Europe is going orange.

The Eiffel Tower has been illuminated orange in solidarity with the Ukrainian people.

The next two days will prove to be facinating. Hang on to you your seats.

I.F.

PS: The people in the Zakarpattia region of Ukraine (Carpatho-Ukraine / Rus) have shown true courage, organization skills, and faith in their people - (bravo les Ukrainiennes et Ukrainiens des Carpathes)
Posted By: JoeS Re: Ukraine - 11/27/04 11:50 PM
NO I totally disagree. The Ukraine is not as united as one would like to think. Otherwise what is all the miss-mass going on consist of? We have political, religious considerations to take into thought here.

joeS
Posted By: byzanTN Re: Ukraine - 11/28/04 12:00 AM
Quote
Originally posted by JoeS:
YES, you could say this. You can disagree but this I believe.

JoeS

//Feel free to tell me if I am misinterpreting this. But it sounds like you are saying that Ukraine is a fragmented country, and the differing sides don't have all that much in common. It sounds like there are some real and very significant differences between the sides.//
Thanks for the information. I neither agree, nor disagree. Ukrainians are few and far between in my area, so all I know is what I read in the newspaper, and read on the Forum.
Posted By: Zenovia Re: Ukraine - 11/28/04 04:26 AM
Quote


Russia's biggest concern is no longer the loss of the region, but that the 'orange revolution' will spill into
Belarus and Russia proper.

All of Europe is going orange.
Dear Jean,

Correct me if I'm wrong, but if Hawaii and Alaska decided to secede from the US, and the nations in Europe were to show their glee, would they be considered our friend. I think that we would perceive them as our enemy and rightfully so.

If Russia therefore considers us enemies, is she so wrong? And if she perceives us as enemies, and therefore a threat to her economic well being, does she not have a right to revive her nuclear programs?

Mind you, I am not saying this because I disagree with the rights of the Ukrainian people, but rather because so many groups in the West, are encouraging and imposing their desires in that part of the world. What they really want, is the break up and destruction of Russia as a power...and Russia knows it.

Remember, we have interests in the Middle East, and are certainly not allowing our interests to be ignored. Can we expect less from a sovereign nation.

So it is sad that these desires and involvments in Eastern Europe by certain groups, only proves that they want us to continue considering Russia as our enemy. By allowing that, we are making her one...and that is certainly against our interests.

The Arab press might be irresponsible in what it shows and writes, but we are certainly not falling far behind. As for the French, or rather I should say the 'Great France'....forget it!

Zenovia
Posted By: Gaudior Re: Ukraine - 11/28/04 06:25 PM
Dear Zenovia,

Your thoughts about Alaska and Hawai'i wanting to secede (to the applause of Europe) are not parallel. Ukraine is an independant nation, and Russia had no business telling its people who to vote for, or what policies to vote ON. And, by sending their Special Forces into Ukraine, unasked, in Ukrainian Army uniforms, and continually interfering, through falsified video and propaganda, Russia has shown itself a bit too involved in what Ukraine should do. If Russia does not want to be labelled "ENEMY", Russia should not send troops to Ukraine, and interfere with its politics. For the entire world to cry out against this falsification is just. Ukraine does not want the USA to interfere in their politics, but needs the world to acknowledge the injustice done, and perpetrated against the will of the Ukrainian people.

Gaudior, who points out the facts
Posted By: Jean Francois Re: Ukraine - 11/28/04 06:30 PM
Quote
Originally posted by JoeS:
NO I totally disagree. The Ukraine is not as united as one would like to think. Otherwise what is all the miss-mass going on consist of? We have political, religious considerations to take into thought here.

joeS
Joe,

The "miss-mass" is the old school Soviets turned business people trying to hang on to a corrupt system which was inherited first from the Czarist Empire then the USSR.

The "miss-mass" is about young people wanting to break with the corruption they inherited from the former USSR.

The "miss-mass" is about people not wanting to be isolated from the West where many of them and their friends have been forced to emigrate due to the 'system' which does not permit them to advance in life.

The only "political consideration" is about wanting what you have here in the USA or as the New York Times puts it: "going back to the USSR".

The only "religious consideration" is about freedom to practice the faith of your choice, or worshiping in the Russian Orthodox Church which has deep ties to the MOB.

ORANGE POWER ! ORANGE POWER ! ORANGE POWER !

First we take Ukraine
Then Moldova
Then Belarus

I.F.

PS: A cout d'etat is their only hope. A high ranking official spilled the beans: Yanukovych was not expected to win more than 30% of the vote in spite of near complete control of the media and commerce which was being used to force people to vote for him.
Posted By: Jean Francois Re: Ukraine - 11/28/04 06:37 PM
Dear Zenovia,

Alaska and Hawaii are not independant states. Ukraine is a sovereign nation with a constitution. Ukraine is not a province of Russia in spite of what they taught you in ROC sunday school.

Russia is no longer a super power - and let us thank God for that. 20,000,000 Ukrainians killed this past century by their "elder brothers".

Let us pray to God that the Russian people will someday be freed from the tyranny known as Czarist Imperialism, Russian Communism / Internatinalism, and now Putinism.

First we take Ukraine

Then Moldova
Then Belarus
Then Russia proper

ORANGE POWER ! ORANGE POWER ! ORANGE POWER !

I.F.
Posted By: AntonI Re: Ukraine - 11/28/04 06:41 PM
Can we please tone down the political argument?

It is in God's hand and He will decide.

Anton
Posted By: Gaudior Re: Ukraine - 11/28/04 07:04 PM
Lest anyone doubt it, if Hawai'i wants to secede, I'm all for it...the USA stole it anyway.

Gaudior, historically
Posted By: JoeS Re: Ukraine - 11/28/04 07:28 PM
//Our Lady's slave of love
JoeS - a quick question - do you approve of a country putting it's troops into another unasked - and once they arrive make them strip their uniforms off and dress them in the uniform of the 'host' country .//

It is interesting that there is no objections with the U.S. calling the shots for Ukraine. The U.S. has poured a lot of cash to the Yuschenko cause. I just hope you dont mind it once your favorite candidate takes office and has to follow the U.S. line or find himself at odds with Washington. It should be a very interesting especially when we look at developments down the road for Ukraine. I hope it works out but Ukraine should not be so indepted to the U.S. that it cannot sneeze without asking permission.

Good Luck, you will need it.

JoeS
Posted By: JoeS Re: Ukraine - 11/28/04 07:32 PM
Sounds very close to something I heard so many years ago. First the Rhineland, then Czekoslovakia,then Poland, then....

But I could be mistaken.

JoeS

//Dear Zenovia,

Alaska and Hawaii are not independant states. Ukraine is a sovereign nation with a constitution. Ukraine is not a province of Russia in spite of what they taught you in ROC sunday school.

Russia is no longer a super power - and let us thank God for that. 20,000,000 Ukrainians killed this past century by their "elder brothers".

Let us pray to God that the Russian people will someday be freed from the tyranny known as Czarist Imperialism, Russian Communism / Internatinalism, and now Putinism.

First we take Ukraine

Then Moldova
Then Belarus
Then Russia proper

ORANGE POWER ! ORANGE POWER ! ORANGE POWER !

I.F. //
Posted By: Gaudior Re: Ukraine - 11/28/04 09:35 PM
JoeS, that meant FREEDOM, not annexation...which is what Russia is trying to do

Gaudior, who suggests you read some more on the subject...
Posted By: Our Lady's slave Re: Ukraine - 11/28/04 09:48 PM
Quote
Originally posted by JoeS:
//Our Lady's slave of love
JoeS - a quick question - do you approve of a country putting it's troops into another unasked - and once they arrive make them strip their uniforms off and dress them in the uniform of the 'host' country .//

It is interesting that there is no objections with the U.S. calling the shots for Ukraine. The U.S. has poured a lot of cash to the Yuschenko cause. I just hope you dont mind it once your favorite candidate takes office and has to follow the U.S. line or find himself at odds with Washington. It should be a very interesting especially when we look at developments down the road for Ukraine. I hope it works out but Ukraine should not be so indepted to the U.S. that it cannot sneeze without asking permission.
Good Luck, you will need it.
JoeS
Joe

I notice you did not answer the question

let me try it again

Would you object if you saw a Russion Special Forces soldier - removing his Russian uniform after entering Ukraine and replacing it with a Ukrainian uniform ?

Let me put it in simple terms.

You realise that a foreign army is in your country outfitted in your country's uniform.

This is Illegal

Do you object to their presence or do you collaborate with them
Posted By: JoeS Re: Ukraine - 11/28/04 10:05 PM
A soldier wearing another uniform in any country not his own is wrong. Is this what you wanted to hear from me? Our American CIA has done this many many times. South and Central America to name a couple. I dont think that either one is right.
JoeS
Posted By: Our Lady's slave Re: Ukraine - 11/28/04 10:05 PM
Joe also

Quote
The U.S. has poured a lot of cash to the Yuschenko cause. I just hope you dont mind it once your favorite candidate takes office and has to follow the U.S. line or find himself at odds with Washington.
I would take issue on that - I have memories that the Toronto Sun
http://www.canoe.ca/NewsStand/Columnists/Toronto/Eric_Margolis/2004/11/28/737962.html

stated
Quote
While wily Putin was campaigning and intriguing furiously for Yanukovych, America, Canada, and Europe reacted with feebleness. Preoccupied by elections and Iraq, the Bush administration did little to support pro-western forces in Ukraine. Instead of shoring up Yushchenko's forces with finance and diplomatic support, Washington sent the lightweight Sen. Richard Lugar, a nobody on the international stage, to encourage them. Europe and Canada did even less.

After the rigged election, lame-duck U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell issued a series of unspecified "serious" threats against Ukraine, an unproductive demarche most observers regarded as too little, too late, and futile.
I will leave you to read the rest of the article for yourself

By the way - please remember I am neither Ukrainian, nor American . Also you should bear in mind that I am a Latin Catholic - not Eastern Catholic or UOC-KP or UAOC or even UOC- MP
Posted By: Gaudior Re: Ukraine - 11/28/04 10:09 PM
Quote
Originally posted by JoeS:
A soldier wearing another uniform in any country not his own is wrong. Is this what you wanted to hear from me? Our American CIA has done this many many times. South and Central America to name a couple. I dont think that either one is right.
JoeS
Of course it is wrong. But, remember, the CIA is mainly a SPY agency, not a foreign army, or part thereof.

Gaudior, who asks why you would support ANYONE who does this
Posted By: Halychanyn Re: Ukraine - 11/28/04 11:01 PM
Dear All:

Nice to hear you all discussing this issue.

Allow me to make one comment how "unified" the people of the Ukraine are.

IMHO, this is impossible to measure accurately becasue the people of the Eastern regions have no access to objective reporting.

Until the demonstrations began last week, it was all state-sponsored media that was pro-Yakunovich and anti-Yushchenko.

Furthermore, the reason that the regional governors in the East are calling for automony is becasue they are pawns of the corrupt Kuchma regime. Plain and simple.

The major Ukrainian TV network 1+1 has vowed to begin truthful reporting immediately and it will be interesting to see how the miners and factory workers in the East react then.

Yours,

hal
Posted By: Diak Re: Ukraine - 11/28/04 11:49 PM
Hal, I talked to my friend Vitaly who is a college student in Kyiv. Basically his entire college and faculty are in the streets. He is from Dnipropetrovsk, certainly no western nationalist stronghold, speaks Russian as his first language, and is completely in support of Yushchenko.

This is the unfolding of a unification of historic proportions. When Morosz, who as the leader of the Socialist Party, and vastly differing from Yushchenko politically, not only himself politically supports him, instructs his members to support Yuschenko, but even goes to the streets in solidarity with Yushchenko, that is something.

When both the Supreme Court and the Rada nullify the election, that is something. When the UOC-KP, the UAOC, the UGCC and even in some places RCC clergy meet together for molebens for the people, that is something speaking of unity. Bozhe velikij yedinu, nashu Kraijnu khrani.
Posted By: Zenovia Re: Ukraine - 11/29/04 01:13 AM
To All,

May I give some other viewpoints. Certain nations in the EU, led by France, (and quite sucessfully I may add), want to make the EU a power greater than the U.S.

They want to do so, simply because they do not trust us, nor our policies. This is not only because of Iraq and the financial interests they had with Saddam Hussein, but because of our impositions on moral issues in the UN. As an example, our refusal to fund abortions in third world countries.

In other words, we are gradually becoming worlds apart with the EU in our moral stance.

As for Poland helping the Ukraine enter the EU, I can't help but wonder: Is it to help the Ukraine, or is it to hurt Russia? Somehow these lovey dovey feelings towards the EU and its 'master' state, Germany, really goes against history. Wasn't it the Germans that helped starve the Ukrainians, (as well as the Soviets), because they needed land for their expanding population.

If I recall correctly, they found the most productive land to be in the Ukraine. All the Nazi's had to do was exterminate the people.

Today I heard on French TV, something to the effect, that the Ukraine is ready to split in two. I think prayers are in order, because things are not as simple as people want them to be.

Just giving a few opinions on a subject I really don't know much about.

Zenovia
Posted By: Zenovia Re: Ukraine - 11/29/04 01:22 AM
This article and map in the BBC should be of interest.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4043315.stm
Posted By: DJM Re: Ukraine - 11/29/04 01:55 AM
The Ukraine should not split into two. The Little Russians in the eastern half know they are Little Russians and are ready to rejoin Great Russia. The Little Russians in the western half are contaminated by westernization and uniatism. They should swear allegiance to Moscow, dissolve the fake country of Ukraine and become part of Russia as is fitting.
Posted By: Halychanyn Re: Ukraine - 11/29/04 02:26 AM
Dear Zenovia:

There can be no doubt that Poland wants a "buffer" between themselves and Russia, but there is also a strong economic bent to their position as well.

Yours,

hal

P.S. To all members - KAMIKAZE MEMBER ALERT! DO NOT ENGAGE! I REPEAT -- PLEASE DO NOT ENGAGE! wink
Posted By: LatinTrad Re: Ukraine - 11/29/04 02:54 AM
Quote
Originally posted by DJM:
The Ukraine should not split into two. The Little Russians in the eastern half know they are Little Russians and are ready to rejoin Great Russia. The Little Russians in the western half are contaminated by westernization and uniatism. They should swear allegiance to Moscow, dissolve the fake country of Ukraine and become part of Russia as is fitting.
DJM,

I assume that you are trying to be humorous in some kind of wierd way. Either that or you are trying to be provocative.

What you are saying is so "off the wall" that no one here will take you seriously at all.

Respectfully,

LatinTrad
Posted By: Halychanyn Re: Ukraine - 11/29/04 02:54 AM
Dear Diak:

Excellent points, as always. I think that the Western media in general and the American media specifically is stuck in the "blue state/red state" mentality.

In this case, it's "Orange Ukraine" vs. "Powder-Puff Blue Ukraine." biggrin

There is talk of an Eastern Ukrainian republic with Charkiv as its capitol, but, if I recall correctly, Charkiv's city council itself agreed that the election results were "suspect."

There are signs on Indep. Square indicating that there are residents of Donetsk (the mining center in East Ukraine) among the Yushchenko supporters.

The fact is that it is the GOVERNMENTS of the Eastern regions that are the ones doing the screaming. The people are, at best, split.

What about those attending the rallies and demostrations for Yanukovich? There are reports that they are being ordered to attend by their bosses at work and/or being paid. Interesting, eh?

One more point. The "East v. West" and "Catholic v. Orthodox" distinctions don't work, either. The "West" of which the media speaks of being Catholic and under Polish or Austrian rule is relatively small.

The central part of Ukraine, inlcuding Kyiv, has been ruled from Moscow for most of the time since the 13th Century.

Yet, somehow, Kyiv has been turned into a "Western Ukrainian" city that is primarily Catholic. WRONG!

Kyiv is mostly Orthodox and Russian is just as commonly heard there as Ukrainian.

Sorry for the ramble. I'll leave it there.

Yours,

hal
Posted By: Halychanyn Re: Ukraine - 11/29/04 02:56 AM
Dear LT:

Please see the thread entitled "Members who come in and out like the wind" under the Town Hall forum. Thanks!

Yours,

hal
Posted By: JoeS Re: Ukraine - 11/29/04 04:04 AM
Sounds like someone is still living back in the 80's. The U.S. isnt Internationalalistic? How about Bushism in the middle East? Name me one country who has more of it's hands in other countries business' than the U.S.? The average Russian dosnt believe he or she is still living under communism or some tyranny or czaristic rule.

I guess it depends on whose ox is getting gored.

JoeS

//Let us pray to God that the Russian people will someday be freed from the tyranny known as Czarist Imperialism, Russian Communism / Internatinalism, and now Putinism.//
Posted By: Halychanyn Re: Ukraine - 11/29/04 04:32 AM
Joe:

The reason the "average Russian" doesn't think that way is becasue they are not given the access to the information that would allow them to think otherwise.

hal
Posted By: Our Lady's slave Re: Ukraine - 11/29/04 08:24 AM
To remind people that all this started because it appeared that in some eyes the election was unfair , I paste in what I have just read in today's Telegraph Bulletin [ which I get by e-mail each morning.] This was apparently filed yesterday

Revealed: the full story of the Ukrainian election fraud
By Tom Parfitt in Kiev and Colin Freeman
(Filed: 28/11/2004)

It was 5.30pm on election day in Ukraine when the thugs in masks arrived armed with rubber truncheons.

Vitaly Kizima, an election monitor at Zhovtneve in Ukraine's Sumy region, watched in horror as 30 men in tracksuits stormed into the village polling station.

"They started to beat voters and election officials, trying to push through towards the ballot boxes," he told The Telegraph.

"People's faces were cut from blows to the head. There was blood all over."

The thugs - believed to be loyal to the pro-Russian presidential candidate Viktor Yanukovich from his stronghold, Donetsk - were repulsed only when locals pushed them back and a policeman fired warning shots.

The catalogue of abuses in the contest between Mr Yanukovich, the prime minister, and his opponent, the pro-Western Viktor Yushchenko, is growing longer by the day.

Ukraine is split, with the western, Europe-leaning regions voting overwhelmingly for Mr Yushchenko while the eastern part of the country - where many speak Russian - backing Mr Yanukovich.

Maya Syta, a journalist working at polling station 73 in a Kiev suburb, witnessed ballot papers destroyed with acid poured into a ballot box. "The officials were taking them out of the box and they couldn't understand why they were wet," she said.

"Then I saw they started to blacken and disintegrate as if they were burning. Two ballots were wrapped up into a tube with a yellow liquid inside. After a few moments they were completely eaten up."

In her polling station, 26 ballots were destroyed and had to be invalidated. Six other cases were recorded of ballots destroyed by acid.

The most common trick was "carousel" voting, in which busloads of Yanukovich supporters simply drove from one polling station to another casting multiple false absentee ballots.

In another brazen fraud recorded by observers from the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe, voters were given pens filled with ink that disappeared, leaving ballots unmarked and invalid.

Mr Yushchenko has refused to accept the election results, which gave him 46.61 per cent of the vote against 49.46 per cent for Mr Yanukovich. The figures are due to be reviewed tomorrow by the Supreme Court, although it cannot reverse them.

Diana Dutsyk, a member of Mr Yushchenko's campaign team, claimed that "dead souls" - late citizens' ballots used by imposters - were also used to augment his opponent's share of the vote.

And late last week Mr Yushchenko's headquarters released an audio recording in which senior members of Mr Yanukovich's campaign team were allegedly caught red-handed discussing how to fix the election result.

In the telephone conversation, a member of the team can be heard saying that he ordered a local election commission to disqualify votes.

Mr Yanukovich denies rigging the vote and claims that a "small clique" of his opponents is trying to divide Ukraine.

But mediators, including Javier Solana, the European Union's foreign policy chief, have hinted that a new election should be called and President George W Bush, said the world was "watching very closely" after Washington called the result into doubt.

Both candidates enjoy genuine support but election observers say that Mr Yanukovich's team used its bureaucratic muscle to rig last Sunday's election in his favour.

"The openness and cynicism of the manipulation was unprecedented," said Olexander Chernenko of the Committee of Voters of Ukraine (CVU), an American-funded organisation that has monitored elections for more than a decade.

About 11,000 complaints have been lodged so far with regional courts.

Mr Yanukovich has described the protest movement as an attempt at an "anti-constitutional coup"; Mr Yushchenko sees it as the "people's self-defence". But the scale of the indignant response from hundreds of thousands of protesters who swept onto the streets - and the extent of the election fraud - are a reflection of larger forces at work.

The state of almost 50 million people, crunched between East and West, was once Kievan Rus - the proto-state that gave birth to the Russian nation. Many in Moscow still think of the country as a southern province.

In recent years, a resurgent Russia under President Vladimir Putin has sought to reassert control over Kiev. Ukraine is an important pipeline route for Russian oil and gas, and a friendly regime will not impose high transit fees.

The country's Black Sea port of Sevastopol is also home to Russia's southern naval fleet, offering easy access to the Mediterranean.

Moscow is pushing for the creation of a "joint economic space" in Belarus, Kazakhstan, Russia and Ukraine - a project that Mr Yushchenko has said would dilute the country's sovereignty.

Mr Yanukovich, who has a criminal record and links to shady business magnates, is backed by Mr Putin, and draws his support from Russian-dominated eastern Ukraine.

However, Western countries such as Britain and the United States support Mr Yushchenko - who promises a turn towards Europe and pursuit of Nato membership. His supporters have been wooed with millions of dollars from the United States.

In turn, Mr Putin did what he could to support his preferred candidate. Immediately before the election, he made two high-profile visits to Kiev to meet Mr Yanukovich and the Ukraine's President, Leonid Kuchma.

Russian advisers, including a leading Moscow spin doctor, Gleb Pavlovsky, were said to be in effect running the prime minister's campaign.

Despite talk of an East-West showdown, many Ukrainians protesting about the election result say that Mr Yanukovich's criminal background is unacceptable, not his bias towards Russia.

The prime minister was twice convicted for robbery and battery in his youth and is seen as the protege of a group of business oligarchs known as "the Donetsk fellas" from the eastern region where he was once governor.

"How could they dare try to impose such a bandit on us?" asked Yuri, who was ferrying protesters to Kiev's Independence Square yesterday in a car festooned with orange streamers. "We will never accept it."


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/11/28/wukra28.xml
Posted By: Our Lady's slave Re: Ukraine - 11/29/04 08:33 AM
Also from today's Bulletin - though parts of this I have seen before - please note one part that I have put into bold

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2004/11/27/wukra27.xml


Moscow accuses EU of meddling in Ukraine
Reports by Julius Strauss in Kiev
(Filed: 27/11/2004)

The European Union stepped in to mediate between rival political leaders in Ukraine last night, prompting a rebuke from Moscow that the West was trying to drag the country illegally into its orbit.

Even as the first face-to-face talks got under way, there were signs of the country's five-day-old crisis worsening. Hundreds of pro-government miners, some drunk and many carrying sticks, were congregating near the capital's railway station, but trouble was avoided.

In the east of the country, pro-Russian mayors said that if the election results were reversed they would hold a referendum on declaring autonomy, a much-feared step towards the possible break-up of the country.

In the capital, Kiev, growing crowds of protesters occupied Independence Square and the surrounding streets for a fifth day as the temperature rose a little to around zero.

They blocked the entrances to the presidential administration, the cabinet of ministers, where the pro-Russian Viktor Yanukovich, the prime minister who claims to have won the disputed elections last week, failed to get to work, and the parliament, severely hampering the government's ability to function.

The EU-mediated talks brought together the outgoing President Leonid Kuchma, Mr Yanukovich, and Viktor Yushchenko, the leader of the opposition.

Russia, which has unstintingly supported Mr Yanukovich and harshly criticised Western involvement in the crisis, reacted angrily to the arrival of the EU envoys.

Sergei Lavrov, the Russian foreign minister, said in Moscow: "In some European capitals there are some forces that are attempting to draw some new border lines across Europe."

He added: "We are alarmed at attempts by certain governments to steer the situation in Ukraine away from a legal path. Especially when certain European capitals are declaring that they do not recognise the elections and that Ukraine has to be with the West."

On the streets the pressure on the government to capitulate was building. For the first time scuffles broke out with riot police in the north of the country when a group of protesters, mostly pensioners, tried to disarm them. Police used tear gas to try to break up the crowd.

Mr Yanukovich, addressing miners from the Donbass basin who had arrived in the capital, said: "Dear friends, together we must do everything so that an unconstitutional coup in Ukraine does not happen."

There are now several thousand of his supporters in Kiev creating a highly-combustible mix. But opposition protesters appeared as determined as ever to carry their unfinished revolution to victory.

In Independence Square and the surrounding streets at least 100,000 were gathered by nightfall. Outside the cabinet of ministers thousands more protesters had gathered sporting orange flags, banners and ribbons.

Petro Baranyak, 28, a gas transport engineer who had travelled from Lviv in western Ukraine, had been holding a placard since 9am. He said: "It's cold but our spirit is strong. I'll be here until our victory is secure."

Sergei Rozora, 37, had closed his hotel in western Ukraine and left his family to come to the capital. He said: "The government is divided. Many people are now coming to our side. Finally they are beginning to understand the truth."

Meanwhile another member of the central election commission withdrew her signature from the document validating Mr Yanukovich's victory, bringing to six the number of members who have refused to sign off the results. If the government loses the support of two more members, the results will be declared invalid and the election may have to be re-run.

Yesterday's flurry of diplomacy began with a meeting between Mr Kuchma and the Polish President, Aleksander Kwasniewski, who has expressed growing concerns about the crisis in his country's eastern neighbour.

Mr Kuchma was then due to meet the opposition leader Mr Yushchenko in addition to Javier Solana, the EU's foreign policy chief, and Lithuania's President Valdas Adamkus for round-table crisis talks.

The president's office said Mr Yanukovich and the Russian parliament speaker Boris Gryzlov, President Putin's envoy, would also enter the talks.

"Calm your passions. The sooner this revolution, this so-called revolution, is over, the better it will be for the people whose fate concerns us so much," Mr Kuchma said.

In Washington President George W Bush warned Ukraine that the world "is watching very closely". He said: "The international community is watching very carefully.

"Hopefully, it will be resolved in a way that brings credit and confidence to the Ukrainian government."
Posted By: Ladyhawke1017 Re: Ukraine - 11/29/04 10:50 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Halychanyn:

P.S. To all members - KAMIKAZE MEMBER ALERT! DO NOT ENGAGE! I REPEAT -- PLEASE DO NOT ENGAGE! wink
Good thing I saw your post before I hit the reply button for the last one... biggrin

Vie
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Ukraine - 11/29/04 02:09 PM
To DJM,

I simply had to come back here to say that you should quickly learn to spell the city in which you live in correctly in English.

You know the one - the city that has proclaimed Viktor Yuschenko as its president.

You can also drop the old imperialist attitudes that denied Ukraine a right to exist.

If you won't acknowledge that, that is fine.

The new democratic Ukraine that is now emerging will allow you to continue to think the way you are.

Under the old system and regime that is now fading away, you could not have gotten away with your attitude.

And again, I'm surprised you have time to post here as you should be out there with your orange scarf demonstrating for the coming of democracy along with Ukrainian, Carpatho-Rusyn, Belarusyan, Russian and other supporters of His Excellency, Mr. Yuschenko, the President of Ukraine.

I don't know much about you as you refuse to give anything out on your forum ID - that is fine too, but it also makes a statement about your courage or lack of.

And to our friend JoeS - wake up and smell the coffee, Friend!

This is about the fall of gangster capitalism and the remains of the Russian empire.

That the Russian Orthodox Church under its name of "Ukrainian Orthodox Church, Moscow Patriarchate" supports Yanukovych - this clearly puts this Church on the side of gangsterism and autocracy.

But it too will adapt in time.

I'm off to get my orange scarf and tie.

Alex
Posted By: JoeS Re: Ukraine - 11/29/04 02:27 PM
I will leave it that we will agree to disagree. I take my leave.

JoeS
Posted By: Our Lady's slave Re: Ukraine - 11/29/04 02:43 PM
Just picked this BBC report up
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4051641.stm

As this is rather long [ even I admit it biggrin ] I will just post a few parts of it
Quote
Wives of Supreme Court judges are reported to have complained that their husbands have been physically threatened to rule in favour of Prime Minister Viktor Yanukovych.
Quote
Live broadcasts from the courtroom show 22 judges in maroon robes hearing arguments from the opposition, the pro-government camp and the Central Electoral Commission.

Their names were reportedly meant to be kept secret until the last minute to protect them from outside interference.
there is a lot to read on this item

Anhelyna
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Ukraine - 11/29/04 03:11 PM
Dear JoeS,

Nothing personal, Sir!

As far as can be seen, Yanukovych hasn't given up just yet, so there is room for disagreement! smile

I was really reacting to DJM ("Dunce Just Mouthing?" smile )

God bless you - and I hope you stay on the Forum to enrich all its readers with your erudite wisdom!

Alex
Posted By: Halychanyn Re: Ukraine - 11/29/04 04:17 PM
Dear Alex:

Ignore him/her. He/she is not worth it.

How were the demostrations in Toronto/Ottawa? I participated in both the one here in Chicago on Tuesday and flew to DC for the one this past Wednesday. Both were well-attended considering that they were in the middle of a weekday.

Apparently, Channel 5 in Ukraine picked up the stories on our efforts here and transmitted them to the Majdan. Reports are that this gave the demostrators in Kyiv a boost. Hoo-Rah!

Lots to discuss but, for now I can only say:

Нас багато, і нас не подолати!

Yours,

hal
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Ukraine - 11/29/04 04:28 PM
Dear Hal,

I would be the first skeptic when it comes to things like this - but there were over 5,000 demonstrators in downtown Toronto last week - and a lot of Russians and Belarusyans and others who donned the orange in support of the demonstrators in Kyiv!

Even our national newspapers have all come out in support of what they are calling a "revolution" - which is what it truly is.

I've visited some stores who have sold out their orange ties and scarves . . .

This thing won't go away. And it shouldn't.

Alex
The Orangeman
Posted By: Edward Yong Re: Ukraine - 11/29/04 04:56 PM
CIX!

I was at the London pro-Yushchenko rally yesterday. I neither speak nor understand Ukrainian, but I wore my orange streamer happily - it's the right thing to do.

Having said that, I'm still obstinately sticking to using 'Kiev' when speaking English - that's been the accepted word for centuries... I still also say 'Peking', so...
Posted By: Halychanyn Re: Ukraine - 11/29/04 05:04 PM
Dear Alex:

There was an excellent panel discussion at the American Enterprise Institute this past Wednesday regarding the situation in Ukraine.

The Institute's director, Marek Sikorski, opened the discussion with a remark that, in his past life, he was a jornalist who covered the revolutions in the Czech Repliblic, Poland and Romania.

He commented that having seen these revolutions first hand,there was no doubt in his mind that the current Ukrainian situation is also a revolution.

Also, during Q&A, a young man stood up. I forget his name, but he indicated that he was with an organization for the defeat of Putin during the next Russian elections.

He asked that the panelists and everyone present not equate "Russia" and the Russian people with the Putin government. The room applauded.

BTW, the AEI is holding a day-long conference on Ukraine on December 10th. Check out their website for more details.

Нас багато, і нас не подолати!

Yours,

hal
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Ukraine - 11/29/04 05:11 PM
Dear Edward,

Thank you for your support!

If you wear your orange streamer, then you can use whatever spelling you like when you speak English.

As I've never heard you speak English, it doesn't bother me . . . wink

Maybe we should have an agreement, you and I? You spell "Kyiv" properly and I'll stop wearing my "free Tibet" wrist-band! wink

I was wondering if the Administrator here had his orange tie or streamer?

And would he like one?

I guess our Irishmen here would object to wearing orange . . .

Alex
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Ukraine - 11/29/04 05:14 PM
Dear Hal,

When we had the consecration of our chapels here yesterday, the Ukraine Consul guy came by and started to speak to us IN FAVOUR of Yanukovych!

He was roundly booed by everyone present - I wonder what was going through his mind when he saw all the orange in the crowd? Did he think it was a Julian Calendar Hallowe'en celebration? wink

Or perhaps he just doesn't watch the TV or read the papers?

Alex
Posted By: Halychanyn Re: Ukraine - 11/29/04 05:32 PM
What an idiot!
Posted By: Amadeus Re: Ukraine - 11/29/04 05:33 PM
If these demonstrations in Kyiv's Independence Square escalate into a head-to-head confrontation between soldiers loyal to the current government (with the open support of some "powder-puff Blues") and the general public sporting the "orange" ties and streamers, then we shall see how the crisis will be resolved: violently or peacefully!

It ended peacefully once in a "revolution" backed by "People Power" at EDSA I in 1986 (in the Philippines). At the forefront were Nuns and Priests and seminarians armed with Rosaries and flowers versus the tanks and battle rifles of the overwhelmed soldiers!

I fervently hope and pray that the 2004 Ukrainian "people power" display in Kyiv's IS will be sustained and succeeds in launching a "bloodless revolution!"

Go Ukies!

Amado
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Ukraine - 11/29/04 06:02 PM
Dear Amado,

I think you are right!

But over the weekend, our papers carried stories about Ukrainian soldiers and cadets disobeying their own government and coming out to support the people in the streets in favour of Yuschenko - there was a picture of them waving orange streamers on the front page of one very liberal paper of ours here.

Even the guards by the buildings have made no move to stop the orange demonstrators from preventing Yanukovych's people entering the parliament.

One editorial in the National Post called Yanukovych a man with a criminal past who was rescued by the current president Leonid Kuchma - he calls Kuchma the head of the gangster overlords of the economy there who has only succeeded in making matters worse.

Putin of Russia is himself burning bridges both East and West with his bungling and his direct involvement with the current elections.

Alex
Posted By: Amadeus Re: Ukraine - 11/29/04 06:27 PM
Dear Alex:

People who have experienced a face-to-face confrontation with fully-armed soldiers always shudder at the thought of the first shot being fired!

Soldiers are also human. Back in their mind, they know some family members are in the opposite (civilian) side. In our case, they did try their darndest to temper their emotions at critical moments.

As in the "People Power" revolutions in my country almost 20 years ago, Church hierarchy and clerics and professed religious joined hands with the laity, from all walks of life, to present a solid wall of humanity against the "all-mighty" armed forces.

After units after units of the Armies shifted allegiance to the "opposition," the soldiers at the forefront begun recapitulating and joined with the people demonstrating.

This is the danger I am hoping the Ukrainian situation will not meet: battle-ready soldiers incapable of "feeling" the pulse of the majority.
It is hard to stop the guns AFTER the first shot is fired. The confrontation might become a "civil war!"

We were lucky, to say the least.

But, again, the birth of a nation is almost always drenched in blood.

Amado
Posted By: Mr. Clean Re: Ukraine - 11/30/04 01:35 AM
It seems Russia just cannot let go of its chauvinism and suspicion - if not outright distrust and hatred - of other nations.

Putin and his cabal are rotten. They backed Hussein in Iraq from the time he took over until the US found him hiding in a hole.

The evil inflicted upon the Ukranian people by Stalin and the Communists is well known to the Ukranians who post here. They know it better than I do.

The blurb from the Moscow rag accusing Poland of meddling in Ukraine would be hilarious if not for the circumstances.

I will pray for a peaceful resolution and for the freedom of the Ukranian people. It is well past time for Ukraine to claim its rightful place among the nations of the world.

As for Russia - the morons in the Kremlin need to wake up and smell the coffee. Their biggest problem is not who wins in Ukraine. Their biggest problem is Islamic terrorism.
Posted By: Halychanyn Re: Ukraine - 11/30/04 02:56 AM
JW:

Actually, I think the Putin government's biggest "problem" is that the Russian people will take a cue from their Ukrainian neighbors and toss out the corrupt government when the next round of elections come around.

Разом нас багато, і нас не подолати.

hal
Posted By: Irish Melkite Re: Ukraine - 11/30/04 05:38 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
You spell "Kyiv" properly and I'll stop wearing my "free Tibet" wrist-band! wink

I guess our Irishmen here would object to wearing orange . . .
Alex,

I'll have you know that it wasn't easy to find something orange, but then I thought of my old Home Depot apron (it was that or ask my daughter to mail home a lock of her hair biggrin ). A utility knife made quick work of carving a piece of cloth from the apron - it serves admirably as a lapel ribbon biggrin .

Many years,

Neil, who can't imagine that Edward would want anyone to abandon a "Free Tibet" symbol confused
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Ukraine - 11/30/04 12:26 PM
Dear Neil,

With apologies to the Administrator and to others here to whom I've promised to cease posting here (this time for good!).

The issue of Tibet is one that is between Edward and myself and goes back a long time - obviously before yours! wink

God bless,

Alex
Posted By: Diak Re: Ukraine - 11/30/04 02:58 PM
I have access to a large cache of bright orange surveyor's tape, and I've been leaving my mark everywhere... biggrin Slava Ukraina!

Hal, you are absolutely right. There are many reform-minded Russians who can't stand the Putin party machine.

I still prefer Justinian... wink
Posted By: ukrainiancatholic Re: Ukraine - 11/30/04 03:31 PM
There will more than likely be a protest this week at the White House while Dubya will (possibily) meet with Ukrainian Diplomats.

Will keep you updated.

And at Gap, they have orange scarfs for 15 bucks, fyi biggrin
Posted By: byzanTN Re: Ukraine - 11/30/04 03:35 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Diak:
I have access to a large cache of bright orange surveyor's tape, and I've been leaving my mark everywhere... biggrin Slava Ukraina!

Hal, you are absolutely right. There are many reform-minded Russians who can't stand the Putin party machine.

I still prefer Justinian... wink
Orange is one of the official colors for the University of Tennessee football team. Most weekends, the entire city is awash in that color. The color is easy to get, but very few know anything about Ukraine except what they read in the newspaper. Thank goodness for the Forum and the information it provides.
Posted By: ukrainiancatholic Re: Ukraine - 11/30/04 03:41 PM
This is all what we should be doing:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/041129/481/xkiv11611291517


[img]http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/041129/481/xkiv11611291517[/img]
Posted By: byzanTN Re: Ukraine - 11/30/04 03:54 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Edward Yong:
CIX!

I was at the London pro-Yushchenko rally yesterday. I neither speak nor understand Ukrainian, but I wore my orange streamer happily - it's the right thing to do.

Having said that, I'm still obstinately sticking to using 'Kiev' when speaking English - that's been the accepted word for centuries... I still also say 'Peking', so...
Does this and other posts mean that there are Ukrainians who consider themselves Russians, who speak Russian and not Ukrainian, and who spell that famous city K-I-E-V? And they are mostly Orthodox, not Catholic? WooHoo, this is rich. biggrin ROFL biggrin I never would have guessed.
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Ukraine - 11/30/04 04:23 PM
Dear Charles,

As in Tennessee, the citizens of Ukraine can be of a variety of ethnic background.

One is "Ukrainian" by citizenship and then "Anything you want" by ethnicity.

According to observers writing for our papers up here, there are ethnic Russians in Ukraine who want to distance themselves from the "gangster capitalism" of Russia and the current Ukrainian satellite government of same.

We have Russians, Belarusyans, Lithuanians etc. taking part in our demonstrations up here as well.

The Georgian flag is also prominent in Kyiv.

It will take some time for the world to get used to "Kyiv" rather than the old Russian colonial "Kiev."

I'm sure you Americans will be the last to learn it down there wink .

Perhaps when your soldiers who will doubtless be stationed in Ukraine in future at several sites come home, they'll bring with them some corrective grammar smile .

Like the British soldiers in the Middle East who changed "Salaam" to "So Long."

I bet you didn't know that . . . wink

Alex
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Ukraine - 11/30/04 04:30 PM
Dear UC,

Nationalism, nationalism, nationalism . . .

That's all we ever get from you Ukrainians!

Now you want to break away from Mother Russia, like the orange-coloured rebel ingrates that you all are to form a fake country of "the Ukraine."

What, you've never seen oranges before? If you like that colour, move to Florida!

Well, we're still going to use "Kiev" - how's that, you trident-worshipping heretics?

And what do you want from Kuchma and Yanukovych? So they've done a few shady dealings, haven't we all?

Sheeesh . . . gimme a break.

I'm reporting you to the Administrator!

Xela ( wink )
Posted By: Amadeus Re: Ukraine - 11/30/04 04:58 PM
Dear Alex:

Yeah, go ahead and report these emergent Ukrainian ultra-nationalists!

I wonder from whom they have learnt their chutzpah! wink

Do you? biggrin

Amado
Posted By: Halychanyn Re: Ukraine - 11/30/04 05:02 PM
A quote from my mom's cousin in Drohobych (translated, of course):

In most places, someone who loves their country is a patriot -- except in Ukraine, where anyone who loves his country is automatically a nationalist.

Makes you wonder.

Разом нас багато, і нас не подолати!

hal
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Ukraine - 11/30/04 05:11 PM
Dear Hal,

It's a good thing Amado is on our side, wouldn't you say?

The people in Kiev in the Ukraine would be proud to have him (we have to go slow with Amado, otherwise we'll alienate him! wink ).

Amado should be given top honours for wanting to go out on a limb for a "fake country."

All lack of seriousness aside, why DID they choose orange as their colour? Any ideas?

I remember meeting Yuschenko here at the legislature.

His presence is rather overwhelming (I not only shook his hand, I actually kissed it!)

When I told him I was never in Ukraine in my life, he shook his head in disbelief and said, "What do you mean . . . how can you . . . I mean . . ." I responded by saying, "I promise to go soon, sir!" smile

The man who was his translator was known to me - I met him two years prior and I knew he was a government aparatchik (as he admitted to me himself).

They had him closely watched that day!

Slava Ukrayini!

Alex
Posted By: Amadeus Re: Ukraine - 11/30/04 05:17 PM
Dear Hal:

Does that sign language lady, Natalia Dmytruk(?), who precipitated the break from "canned" broadcasts, deserve to be called a patriot and a nationalist?

Amado
Posted By: ukrainiancatholic Re: Ukraine - 11/30/04 05:17 PM
Alex,

My blood pressure was sky rocketing as my face became darker than the orange jacket I am wearing.

Then I realized it was you, joking of course, but tha still didn't stop me from reporting you to the administrator for your anti-Ukrainian setiments. biggrin

Touche!
Posted By: Amadeus Re: Ukraine - 11/30/04 05:36 PM
Dear Alex:

Judging the creativeness and doggedness of Yushchenko and of his millions of supporters, like that lady sign language broadcaster, the color orange is/was most appropriate.

It is said that is a rare combination!

Amado
Posted By: byzanTN Re: Ukraine - 11/30/04 05:57 PM
I just saw this about Ukrainian protesters rushing parliament.

protesters
Posted By: byzanTN Re: Ukraine - 11/30/04 06:01 PM
Quote
Perhaps when your soldiers who will doubtless be stationed in Ukraine in future at several sites come home, they'll bring with them some corrective grammar .
Nah, we have to invade Canada next. That place is full of subversives. wink And since they don't spend much on defense anymore, the invasion should go pretty smoothly. wink biggrin
Posted By: Gaudior Re: Ukraine - 11/30/04 06:12 PM
Quite...we'll just invade via submarine....

Gaudior, who suggests that the Canadians do like the Middle East, and buy their military equipment from the USA, not GB wink
Posted By: Amadeus Re: Ukraine - 11/30/04 06:16 PM
Charles:

The I-Day is on!

His Highness, G.W. Bush II, together with his scrappy general, Colin Powell, have landed somewhere in Canada to annex the Dominion as the Northern State of the U.S. of A! wink

Amado
Posted By: byzanTN Re: Ukraine - 11/30/04 06:49 PM
ROFL biggrin biggrin biggrin
Posted By: KO63AP Re: Ukraine - 11/30/04 08:04 PM
The 'separatists' in Ukraine have come up with a great name for their 'entity': South-Eastern Ukrainian Autonomous Republic. Why so great? In Ukrainian it is Південно-східна українська автономна республіка (ПіСУАР), the acronym transliterates as PiSUAR. Enough said! biggrin

Фалсіфікаціям - ні! Махінаціям - ні! Понятіям - ні! Ні брехні!
Ми не бидло, ми не козли, ми Україні доньки і сини!
Разом нас багато - нас не подолати!


Join the Orange Revolution! Click here for wallpaper for computers and mobiles, music, and much more!
Posted By: Our Lady's slave Re: Ukraine - 11/30/04 08:09 PM
Quote
Originally posted by KO63AP:
The 'separatists' in Ukraine have come up with a great name for their 'entity': South-Eastern Ukrainian Autonomous Republic. Why so great? .......s as [b]PiSUAR. Enough said! biggrin ...

[/b]
brings back memories of Clochemerle biggrin biggrin
Posted By: Gaudior Re: Ukraine - 11/30/04 08:11 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Our Lady's slave of love:
Quote
Originally posted by KO63AP:
[b] The 'separatists' in Ukraine have come up with a great name for their 'entity': South-Eastern Ukrainian Autonomous Republic. Why so great? .......s as [b]PiSUAR. Enough said! biggrin ...

[/b]
brings back memories of Clochemerle biggrin biggrin [/b]
Oh, doesn't it! biggrin biggrin

Gaudior, wondering how to type in orange font....
Posted By: Amadeus Re: Ukraine - 11/30/04 08:23 PM
I have not watched a single episode of "Clochemerle" but, judging by the number of biggrin from above, this MUST be a hilariously funny British comedy at its best!

(Too many adjectival adjuncts?)

KO63AP, what/who will prevent the other side from proclaiming itself the "Greater Western Ukrainian Independent Republic?" biggrin

Amado
Posted By: Our Lady's slave Re: Ukraine - 11/30/04 08:49 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Amadeus:
I have not watched a single episode of "Clochemerle" but, judging by the number of biggrin from above, this MUST be a hilariously funny British comedy at its best!
Amado
For your edification Amado try these 2 sites

http://www2.sjsu.edu/depts/english/cloche.htm

http://www.phill.co.uk/comedy/cloche/

This may be a peculiarly British bit of humour
Posted By: KO63AP Re: Ukraine - 11/30/04 09:18 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Amadeus:
KO63AP, what/who will prevent the other side from proclaiming itself the "Greater Western Ukrainian Independent Republic?" biggrin

Amado
Amado,

the simple fact that there is no "Western" or "Eastern" or any other division of Ukraine. There is but one, whole, united UKRAINE. The western regions of Ukraine could long ago have dumped the rest of the country and formed a more 'Ukrainian' Ukraine. But they didn't. Ukraine is not just where the Ukrainian language is spoken by the majority. If that was the case a passport and visas would be needed to pass through some parts of Canada and the US! wink

Most people in Ukraine feel strongly about the unity of the country, even those not ethnically Ukrainian. On the other hand you have opportunists/mafia who think they can grab more for themselves if they don't have to answer to the rest of the country, and those who have been lead to believe that their region really runs the show and doesn't need the rest of the country. Sadly, these people will end up paying the biggest price if there is a split.

IMHO if it did go to a fair vote (please, stop laughing!) the separatist movement will fail.

Now, if we can only start working on reclaiming some lands currently occupied by our neighbours.... Just kidding! :p

Нас багато - нас не подолати!
Posted By: Halychanyn Re: Ukraine - 11/30/04 09:48 PM
Andriju:

If by "fair elections" you mean that the common miner or factory worker in the Eastern regions will be given access to truthful media reports of which candidate stands for what, I agree.

The problem is that the common-folk in the Eastern regions still function under Soviet-style brain-washing that the West and Western-leaning reformers such as Yushchenko and Tymoshenko are bad and that all we/they want to do is take away their salaries and pensions.

Still, how go the oligarchs, so will go the Eastern Ukrainian sepratist movement. Already Pinchuk (Kuchma's son-in-law) and others have said that separating would be unacceptable.

Personally, I think that they are businessmen and that, as businessmen, they realize that their power would be crushed under Putin's Russia.

However, Yushchenko, as a former Central Banker, is astute enough to know that the Ukrainian economy as a whole could not survive without these oligarchs' cooperation - and the obligarchs know this, too.

Making a deal with the devil, you say? Maybe, so, but the ends just might justify the means.

Разом нас багато, і нас не подолати!


hal
Posted By: Mr. Clean Re: Ukraine - 11/30/04 10:29 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Halychanyn:
JW:

Actually, I think the Putin government's biggest "problem" is that the Russian people will take a cue from their Ukrainian neighbors and toss out the corrupt government when the next round of elections come around.

Разом нас багато, і нас не подолати.

hal
Well put. Thank you. I have nothing orange to wear!!! I need to find something!!

This is because orange is one of the colors of the Cleveland Browns of the NFL. I live near Pittsburgh, home of the Steelers. We despise the Browns and their colors, so it is hard to find orange here. However, I will make the effort.
Posted By: JoeS Re: Ukraine - 11/30/04 11:41 PM
An objective reading would be appreciated.

JoeS

UKRAINE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION 2004 – SECOND ROUND:



PRELIMINARY STATEMENT




24 November 2004



The British Helsinki Human Rights Group (BHHRG) sent observers to the

second round of the presidential election in Ukraine on 21st November 2004.

BHHRG monitored the election in the city and district of Kiev, Chernigov, and

Transcarpathia. Counts were observed in central Kiev and Uzhgorod.



Contrary to the condemnations issued by the team of professional politicians

and diplomats deployed by the OSCE mainly from NATO and EU states, the

BHHRG observers did not see evidence of government-organized fraud nor of

suppression of opposition media. Improbably high votes for Prime Minister,

Viktor Yanukovich, have been reported from south-eastern Ukraine but less

attention has been given to the 90% pro-Yushchenko results declared in

western Ukraine.



Although Western media widely claimed that in Ukraine the opposition was,

in effect, excluded from the broadcast media, particularly in western Ukraine

the opposite was the case. On the eve of the poll – in flagrant violation of the

law banning propaganda for candidates – a series of so-called “social

information” advertisements showing well-known pop stars like Eurovision

winner Ruslana wearing the orange symbols of Mr Yushchenko’s candidacy

and urging people to vote appeared on state television!



Although BHHRG did not encounter blatant violations in either the first or second

rounds, the Group’s observers were alarmed by a palpable change in the

atmosphere inside the polling stations in central Ukraine in particular. In Round 1,

a relaxed and orderly mood prevailed throughout the day. In Round 2 the situation

had become slightly tense and chaotic. In BHHRG’s observation the change in

Round 2 was attributable primarily to an overabundance of local observers, who

exercised undue influence over the process and in some instances were an

intimidating factor. The vast majority of observers in the polling stations visited

were representatives of Viktor Yushchenko.



Transparent ballot boxes meant that these observers could frequently see

how people had voted. This OSCE-approved innovation made intimidation of voters

for the more unpopular candidate in any district easier since few supporters of

the minority would wish it to be seen how they had voted.



Ukraine’s election law allows only candidates and political parties, not non-

governmental organizations, to deploy observers. However, observers can be

deployed in the guise of journalists. For example, the Western-sponsored

Committee of Voters of Ukraine (KVU) – clearly sympathetic to the opposition –

deployed observers throughout Ukraine as “correspondents” for the

organization’s newspaper, <I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">Tochka Zora. On 31st October, BHHRG did not

encounter any representatives of this newspaper anywhere, but on

21st November such journalist-observers were highly visible in central Ukraine.

In Chernigov 11/208, for example, all 6 journalist-observers represented

opposition newspapers and one, for <I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">Tochka Zora, stood very close to the

ballot boxes and closely inspected how votes were cast. Because ballot

papers in Round 2 were much smaller than in Round 1 and were not

placed in envelopes before insertion into the transparent ballot boxes,

secrecy of the ballot was compromised. In this case, the immediate

impression was that a young <I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">Tochka Zora correspondent exercised more

control over the process than the election commission chairman himself.



In Chernigov (7/208), all 7 journalist-observers represented opposition

newspapers, in some cases simply temporary campaign publications such

as the pro-Yushchenko propaganda paper <I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">Tak – his election slogan “Yes.” In

a scene exemplary of the mood of voting on November 21st, BHHRG watched a

nervous looking old woman emerge from a voting booth, approach the three

opposition observers sitting directly behind the ballot boxes, and ask: “Have

I filled out the ballot correctly?” An observer inspected the ballot, saw it was filled

in for Viktor Yushchenko, and replied: “Yes.” The woman’s unfolded ballot was

plainly visible in the transparent ballot box.



Such groups of opposition journalist/observers were not in evidence in the

Transcarpathian region visited by BHHRG’s observers. Exit pollsters in

Mukachevo admitted to being Yushchenko supporters and were carrying out

their poll in a simplistic manner – asking every twentieth voter for their choice

without categorizing by age, class, etc. 40% of voters refused to say how they

had voted, but 80% of the remainder said that they had backed Yushchenko.

The exit polls were clearly not scientific – less so even than the ones predicting

Kerry trouncing George W. Bush in Florida and Ohio!



In a polling station attached to Uzhgorod’s university a group of young, male

Yushchenko observers hung around the entrance to the polling room and next to

the ballot box. OSCE guidelines condemn the presence of such un-authorised

personnel. The commission chairman in this polling station stated that four

members of the election commission had prevented observers for Mr. Yushenko

from fulfilling their tasks leading to the intervention of lawyers. When this

accusation was put to other members of the commission they appeared dumb-

founded and said no such incident had taken place. The chairman appeared

shocked that the BHHRG observers sought to confirm his detailed account

of the misbehaviour of some of his colleagues by asking other witnesses, but

no proper observation should accept allegations unquestioningly.



Conclusion:



Whatever may have been the case in south-eastern Ukraine, it was clear to this

Group’s observers in central Ukraine and western Ukraine that the opposition

exercised near complete control. The broadcast media showed bias towards

Mr. Yushchenko in these areas, particularly in western Ukraine where Viktor

Yanukovich was invisible – not even being shown voting on polling day. It is

naïve to think only the government had the facilities to exercise improper

influence over the polls. From what BHHRG observed, the opposition exercised

disproportionate control over the electoral process in many places, giving rise

to concerns that the opposition – not only the authorities – may have

committed violations and may have even falsified the vote in opposition-

controlled areas. So-called “administrative resources” in places visited by

BHHRG appeared to be in the hands of the opposition, not the Yanukovich

government, and this may have frightened voters. After all since Sunday,

police and security personnel in some western towns have declared their

loyalty to “president” Yushchenko.



The open bias of Western governments and their nominated observers in the

OSCE delegation, some of whom have appeared on opposition platforms,

makes it unreasonable to rely on its report.



In spite of these specific concerns, BHHRG finds no reason to believe that

the final result of the 2004 presidential election in Ukraine was not generally

representative of genuine popular will. The election featured a genuine choice

of candidates, active pre-election campaigns, and high voter participation. It is

clear that Ukrainian opinion was highly polarized. That meant many people

backing a losing candidate would find it difficult to accept a defeat. Foreigners

should not encourage civil conflict because the candidate on whom they have

lavished expensive support turned out to be a loser.
Posted By: Halychanyn Re: Ukraine - 11/30/04 11:48 PM
Joe:

Consider the following:

British Helsinki Human Rights Group
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

The British Helsinki Human Rights Group, often abbreviated to the British Helsinki Group, is an Oxford-based non-governmental organization which monitors human rights in the 57 member states of the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe.

The BHHRG was founded in 1992. It became a registered charity in the United Kingdom (number 1041472) in 1994 and its trustees are listed as being Mark Almond (its chairman), Anthony Daniels, John Laughland and Mary Walsh. Christine Stone, a lawyer-turned-journalist, was a co-founder. Despite its name, it is not an official Helsinki Committee; the United Kingdom's official Helsinki Committee is the British Helsinki Subcommittee of the Parliamentary Human Rights Group, which was established in 1976. The "About us" page on the BHHRG web site (as of 28 September 2004) neither states anything about the historical background of the Helsinki Committee nor does it make any attempt to clarify the relationship between itself and the Helsinki Committee. This apparently deliberate confusion has prompted the International Helsinki Federation to publicly disclaim any connection with the BHHRG and has led others to accuse the BHHRG of "nam[ing] itself so as to usurp the prestige of its elder". [1] (http://www.ukar.org/barcla/barcla01.html)

The BHHRG has a policy of only publishing reports from first-hand observers, concentrating particularly on election monitoring in the OSCE countries. It has been criticised by other human rights activists and genuine Helsinki Committees for publishing views which are markedly at odds with the generally accepted picture of affairs in Europe. For instance:

it condemned the November 2003 revolution in Georgia as a coup d'etat;
it has strongly criticised Western support for the Serbian opposition to Slobodan Milosevic;
it has claimed that elections in Belarus have met democratic standards;
it has published an unsigned essay supporting Russian President Vladimir Putin and the Russian authorities' actions in the Beslan hostage crisis;
and it has recently spoken in support of the Ukrainian government in the disputed Ukrainian presidential election, 2004, claiming that "it finds no reason to believe that the final result of the 2004 presidential election in Ukraine was not generally representative of genuine popular will" – a view markedly at odds with independent observers of the election.
The BHHRG has been subjected to particularly strong criticism in the Czech Republic for claiming that the country's Roma population do not suffer discrimination, a proposition which very few observers accept. A Roma member of the Czech parliament, Monika Horakova, published an open letter in 1999 condemning the BHHRG's claims:

I had thought that the Helsinki Group was a non-partisan body interested in exposing and helping to solve human rights abuses in the world. This report caused me to question my previously held beliefs. However, I have since learned that the BHHRG has no connection to the International Helsinki Federation for Human Rights in Vienna. It is a disgrace that the BHHRG is using the good Helsinki name to mislead the public into thinking that their racist propaganda is somehow affiliated with the well-respected Helsinki Group. [2] (http://www.pili.org/lists/piln/archives/msg00344.html)
On the other hand, the BHHRG has also identified a number of genuine human rights problems in many of the former communist countries, on occasion identifying issues that Western governments have found it politically expedient to overlook.

The membership and political orientation of the BHHRG is somewhat obscure. Its trustees include a number of prominent right-wing British Eurosceptics (notably the Oxford academic Mark Almond and political commentator John Laughland), which perhaps explains the slant of some of the BHHRG's views. A common theme in many of its reports has been a critical view of perceived Western "meddling in the internal affairs" of central and east European countries, notably Yugoslavia (now Serbia and Montenegro) and Belarus. Many of its reports refer to the "New World Order" [3] (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%22New+World+Order%22+site%3Abhhrg.org&btnG=Google+Search), which suggests that the BHHRG is ideologically allied with far-right groups such as the John Birch Society which oppose the activities of multinational organisations such as the UN and OSCE on the grounds that they are steps towards a "world government".

The group has recently begun using the name OSCEwatch, implying that it sees part of its mission as scrutinising the activities of the OSCE.

The BHHRG's sources of funding are obscure; according to its published accounts, it received £417,332 in income between 1997-2003 and spent £449,086 in the same timeframe. Although its website ostensibly solicits donations, no information is given on how to donate to the group, nor is any information on its income and expenditure given.
Posted By: Halychanyn Re: Ukraine - 11/30/04 11:55 PM
So, let's see...

Their name is a deliberate attempt to mislead,

The REAL Helsinki Committe has disavowed any connection to them,

Other recognized human rights groups have been highly critical of what they say,

(My personal favorite) They said that the Belarus elections were free and fair,

and, finally... no one knows where their money comes from.


In short, Joe, if you want to post a contrary view, please cite a credible source.

Oh, and lest I forget:

&#1056;&#1072;&#1079;&#1086;&#1084; &#1085;&#1072;&#1089; &#1073;&#1072;&#1075;&#1072;&#1090;&#1086; -- &#1085;&#1072;&#1089; &#1085;&#1077; &#1087;&#1086;&#1076;&#1086;&#1083;&#1072;&#1090;&#1080;!

hal
Posted By: JoeS Re: Ukraine - 12/01/04 12:17 AM
WOW, I GUESS I LEARNED MY LESSON.

JoeS Heh
Posted By: djs Re: Ukraine - 12/01/04 02:29 AM
And presumably you've seen this expose, JoeS:


Quote
PR man to Europe's nastiest regimes

David Aaronovitch
Tuesday November 30, 2004
The Guardian

Whenever, as this past week, eastern Europe is on the news, so too is a man called John Laughland. Last Sunday he was playing Ukrainian expert on the BBC's The World This Weekend, the day before he was here in the Guardian defending the Ukrainian election "result", and at the beginning of the month he was writing for the Spectator - also on Ukraine....
http://www.guardian.co.uk/ukraine/story/0,15569,1362616,00.html
Posted By: Diak Re: Ukraine - 12/01/04 04:25 AM
&#1056;&#1072;&#1079;&#1086;&#1084; &#1085;&#1072;&#1089; &#1073;&#1072;&#1075;&#1072;&#1090;&#1086;

&#1056;&#1072;&#1079;&#1086;&#1084; &#1085;&#1072;&#1089; &#1073;&#1072;&#1075;&#1072;&#1090;&#1086;

&#1056;&#1072;&#1079;&#1086;&#1084; &#1085;&#1072;&#1089; &#1073;&#1072;&#1075;&#1072;&#1090;&#1086;

I heard the hip-hop version of that tonight on BBC World Service (they played it for at least a minute straight) tonight and it's stuck in my head. My kids have been singing it all evening. smile

The BBC also reported that the referendum in Donetsk will be delayed, possibly even a year.
Posted By: KO63AP Re: Ukraine - 12/01/04 05:39 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Diak:
I heard the hip-hop version of that tonight on BBC World Service (they played it for at least a minute straight) tonight and it's stuck in my head. My kids have been singing it all evening. smile
This song can be downloaded from the site I posted ealier. wink

&#1056;&#1072;&#1079;&#1086;&#1084; &#1085;&#1072;&#1089; &#1073;&#1072;&#1075;&#1072;&#1090;&#1086; - &#1085;&#1072;&#1089; &#1085;&#1077; &#1087;&#1086;&#1076;&#1086;&#1083;&#1072;&#1090;&#1080;
Posted By: KO63AP Re: Ukraine - 12/01/04 05:51 AM
Quote
Originally posted by JoeS:
An objective reading would be appreciated.

JoeS

UKRAINE PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION 2004 – SECOND ROUND:

The British Helsinki Human Rights Group (BHHRG) sent observers to the ...
I was going to do a point by point response to this, but I think I've found a simpler way...

Quote
In spite of these specific concerns, BHHRG finds no reason to believe that the final result of the 2004 presidential election in Ukraine was not generally representative of genuine popular will. The election featured a genuine choice of candidates, active pre-election campaigns, and high voter participation. It is clear that Ukrainian opinion was highly polarized. That meant many people backing a losing candidate would find it difficult to accept a defeat. Foreigners should not encourage civil conflict because the candidate on whom they have lavished expensive support turned out to be a loser.
This could almost be a translation of the report of the CIS observers from both rounds of the election (the majority coming from Russia, Kazakhstan and Belarus). They had an agenda. Joe, do you? BTW, did Bob Tallick ask you to copy this from OC.net and post it here?

&#1053;&#1110; - &#1073;&#1088;&#1077;&#1093;&#1085;&#1110;!
Posted By: Irish Melkite Re: Ukraine - 12/01/04 09:18 AM
Exhortation of the Ecumenical Patriarch to the Ukrainian People

The Great Church of Christ, The Ecumenical Patriarchate, since the reception of the Orthodox Faith from Constantinople under the Saintly Prince Volodymyr, has been always solicitous about her Ukrainian Children. The Mother Church has never abandoned her Ukrainians, but always through prayer stood ready to facilitate their unshakable faith and bond to the true Orthodoxy. We are aware of the turmoil that the independent nation is experiencing today and we are praying to the Almighty that, peace, justice and truth prevail among the Ukrainian people, and that they will continue to develop their newly gained independence among other free nations in peace, prosperity, justice and well being for all its citizens.

The Patriarchal Exhortation to the Ukrainian People
Posted By: Our Lady's slave Re: Ukraine - 12/01/04 01:01 PM
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4057213.stm

Quote
Ukraine MPs vote down government

There were emotional scenes in parliament after the vote

Ukraine's parliament has passed a no-confidence motion in Prime Minister Viktor Yanukovych as a crisis over the disputed presidential poll continues.

MPs narrowly backed an opposition bid to dismiss Mr Yanukovych and his government on grounds of mismanagement.
there is still a long way to go before all is settled

It is my understanding that there have already been attempts to remove some incriminating papers from the parliament buildings. [ To be honest that would not surprise me under similar circumstances in any other country]


Anhelyna
Posted By: DJM Re: Ukraine - 12/01/04 01:14 PM
Only sleepwalkers believe in fairytale revolutions
December 1, 2004

The Western media has again fallen for the dubious propaganda of US stooges in Ukraine, writes John Laughland.

There was a time when the left was in favour of revolution, while the right stood unambiguously for the authority of the state. Not any more. This week two British newspapers - the anti-Iraq war Independent and the pro-Iraq war Telegraph - excitedly announced a "revolution" in Ukraine, while in the US the right-wing Washington Times welcomed "the people versus the power".

Whether it is Albania in 1997, Serbia in 2000, Georgia last November or Ukraine now, our media regularly peddle the same fairytale about how youthful demonstrators manage to bring down an authoritarian regime simply by attending a rock concert in a central square.

Two million anti-war demonstrators can stream though the streets of London and be politically ignored, but a few tens of thousands in Kiev are proclaimed to be "the people", while the Ukrainian police, courts and governmental institutions are discounted as instruments of oppression.

The Western imagination is so gripped by its mythology of popular revolution that we have become dangerously tolerant of blatant double standards in reporting. Enormous rallies have been held in Kiev in support of the Prime Minister, Viktor Yanukovich, but they are not shown on our TV screens: if their existence is admitted, Yanukovich supporters are denigrated as having been "bussed in".
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The demonstrations in favour of Viktor Yushchenko have laser lights, plasma screens, sophisticated sound systems, rock concerts, tents to camp in and huge quantities of orange clothing; yet we happily dupe ourselves that they are spontaneous.

We are told that a 96 per cent turnout in Donetsk, the home town of Yanukovich, is proof of electoral fraud. But apparently turnouts of over 80 per cent in areas which support Yushchenko are not. Nor are votes for Yushchenko of well over 90 per cent in three regions, which Yanukovich achieved only in two.

And whereas Yanukovich was officially credited with 54 per cent of the vote, the Western-backed President of Georgia, Mikhail Saakashvili, officially polled 96.24 per cent of the vote in January. The observers who now denounce the Ukrainian election welcomed that result in Georgia, saying that it "brought the country closer to meeting international standards".

The blindness extends even to the posters which the "pro-democracy" group Pora has plastered all over Ukraine, depicting a jackboot crushing a beetle, an allegory of what Pora wants to do to its opponents.

Such dehumanisation of enemies has well-known antecedents - not least in Nazi-occupied Ukraine, when pre-emptive war was waged against the Red Plague emanating from Moscow - yet these posters have passed without comment.

Pora continues to be presented as an innocent band of students having fun in spite of the fact that - like its sister organisations in Serbia and Georgia, Otpor and Kmara - Pora is an organisation created and financed by Washington.

It gets worse. Plunging into the crowd of Yushchenko supporters in Independence Square after the first round of the election, I met two members of Una-Unso, a neo-Nazi party whose emblem is a swastika. They were unembarrassed about their allegiance, perhaps because last year Yushchenko and his allies stood up for the Socialist party newspaper, Silski Visti, after it ran an anti-Semitic article claiming Jews had invaded Ukraine alongside the German army in 1941.

On September 19, 2004, Yushchenko's ally, Alexander Moroz, told JTA-Global Jewish News: "I have defended Silski Visti and will continue to do so. I personally think the argument ... citing 400,000 Jews in the SS is incorrect, but I am not in a position to know all the facts."

Yushchenko, Moroz and their oligarch ally, Yulia Tymoshenko, cited a court order closing the paper as evidence of the Government's desire to muzzle the media. In any other country, support for anti-Semites would be shocking; in this case, our media do not even mention it.

Voters in Britain and the US have witnessed their governments lying brazenly about Iraq for over a year in the run-up to war, and with impunity. This is an enormous dysfunction in our so-called democratic system.

Our tendency to paint political fantasies on to countries such as Ukraine, and to present the West as a fairy godmother swooping in to save the day, is not only a way to salve a guilty conscience about our political shortcomings. It also blinds us to the reality of continued brazen Western intervention in the democratic politics of other countries.

The Guardian
Posted By: djs Re: Ukraine - 12/01/04 01:32 PM
Since our man who claims to be from Lvov Russia gives a Guardian article by the aptly named Laughland, I post in full the Guardian article aabout Laughland that I only linked to above.

Quote
PR man to Europe's nastiest regimes

David Aaronovitch
Tuesday November 30, 2004
The Guardian

Whenever, as this past week, eastern Europe is on the news, so too is a man called John Laughland. Last Sunday he was playing Ukrainian expert on the BBC's The World This Weekend, the day before he was here in the Guardian defending the Ukrainian election "result", and at the beginning of the month he was writing for the Spectator - also on Ukraine.
Laughland's great strength is that he sees what no one else in the west seems to. Where reporters in Kiev, including the Guardian's own Nick Paton-Walsh, encounter a genuine democracy movement, Laughland comes across "neo-Nazis" (Guardian), or "druggy skinheads from Lvov" (Spectator). And where most observers report serious and specific instances of electoral fraud and malpractice on the part of the supporters of the current prime minister, Laughland complains only of a systematic bias against (the presumably innocent) Mr Yanukovich.

A quick trawl establishes this to be the Laughland pattern over the past few years and concerning several countries. Laughland has variously queried the idea that human rights are a problem in Belarus, or that the Serbs behaved so very savagely in Kosovo. He has defended Slobodan Milosevic, criticised the International Tribunal in the Hague and generally argued that the problem in countries normally associated with human rights abuses is, in fact, the intervention of western agencies.

It was the British Helsinki Human Rights Group hat that he was wearing last Sunday. On its website the BHHRG - of which Laughland is a trustee - describes itself as a non-governmental organisation which monitors human rights in the 57 member states of the Organisation for Security and Co-operation in Europe. Laughland is listed as a trustee, the historian Mark Almond (to be found writing about the Ukraine in last week's New Statesman) is its chairman.

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Founded in 1992, the BHHRG sends observers to elections and writes reports which - along Laughlandish lines - almost invariably dispute the accounts given by better known human rights organisations. This stance has led to the BHHRG being criticised by the International Helsinki Federation for Human Rights (established in 1976) as preferring "the role [is to take] PR flak for a new breed of authoritarian rulers in Europe" to the business of actually monitoring abuses.

So what on earth is going on here? I know nothing about BHHRG's finances, but the ideological trail is fascinating. Take the co-founder of the group, Christine Stone. She was a lawyer before she helped set up BHHRG. Since then she has "written for a number of publications including the Spectator and Wall Street Journal on eastern Europe and the former Soviet Union".

This information comes from a US website called Antiwar.com where, for a while, Stone had a regular Thursday column. But Antiwar.com was not a leftwing site opposing the Iraq war. It was a rightwing site set up to oppose the Kosovo intervention in 1999. Its "editorial director" was a man called Justin Raimondo who was active in the small US Libertarian party before joining the Republican party. In the 1992, 1996 and 2000 elections he supported the campaigns of Pat Buchanan, the far-right isolationist candidate.

Raimondo is also an "adjunct scholar" with the Ludwig von Mises Institute. This is a libertarian think-tank in Auburn, Alabama, founded by one Lew Rockwell, who describes himself as "an opponent of the central state, its wars and its socialism". A contributor to Rockwell's own site is Daniel McAdams, who is - in his own words "honoured to be associated" with the British Helsinki Human Rights Group.

Trail 2. Laughland is also European Director of the European Foundation (patron, Mrs M Thatcher), which - judging by its website - seems to spend most of its time and energy sending out pamphlets by arch-Europhobe Bill Cash. A synopsis of one of Laughland's own books, however, notes his argument that, "Post-national structures ... and supranational organisations such as the European Union - are ... corrosive of liberal values (and) the author shows the ideology as a crucial core of Nazi economic and political thinking."

Beginning to get the picture now? Trail 3 leads us to Sanders Research Associates, a "risk consultancy" for which Laughland is, according to their website, "a regular contributor" and to which companies can subscribe for information and advice. The "principal" is a Chris Sanders. The kind of steer Sanders gives his customers can be adduced from this report on the morning of the US presidential election. "We will be very surprised," he wrote, "if on Wednesday John Kerry has not won a clear majority of electoral college votes and that his supporters are not nursing substantial post vote celebration hangovers, if not still drinking the champagne."

Lots of people got that one wrong, and some blamed their own judgment. Not Sanders. "Our bet," he says following the results, "is that we will soon be adding an investigation into the biggest vote fraud in history.'"

Sanders, it seems, is not beyond the odd bit of conspiracising. In a bulletin from June 2002 he also has something to suggest about the Twin Towers atrocity. "It was obvious then, and it is obvious now," he writes, "that something besides the brilliance of a band of terrorists or the incompetence of America's security apparatus was responsible for the disaster of 9/11." But he doesn't tell us what that "something" was.

Sanders on America and Laughland on Ukraine, however, are not the most amazing features of Sanders Research Associates. That distinction belongs to the report on Rwanda written for Sanders by a Canadian lawyer named Chris Black. Black is the only person I have ever seen putting the word genocide in quotation marks when applied to Rwanda. Rwanda, you see, was all the US's fault, and wasn't carried out by Hutus in any case. It was all got up to justify US intervention in the region. He condemns the "demonising (of) the Hutu leadership".

Since 2000 Black has been the lead counsel representing General Augustin Ndindiliyimana, chief of staff of the Rwandan gendarmerie, at the International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda. He is also chair of the legal committee for the international committee for the defence of Slobodan Milosevic. Last year (though not for Sanders) Black went on a delegation to North Korea. The report he wrote on his return is full of references to happy peasants, committed soldiers and delightful guides. The North Korean system, he suggested, being "participatory", was in many ways more democratic than parliamentary systems in the west.

This is weird company. And what we seem to have in Laughland and his associates is a group of right-wing anti-state libertarians and isolationists, suspicious of any foreign entanglements, who have somehow morphed into apologists for the worst regimes and most appalling dictators on the planet.

And where does it all end up? A couple of weeks ago Sanders commended to his clients "John Laughland's series of articles [showing that] the attack on Iraq is just the southern offensive of a larger campaign to tighten the noose on Russia." And he continued, "What is less well understood are the risks that the unravelling political compact in Israel poses for the United States and Great Britain, whose political processes, intelligence services, military, media and financial establishments are so thoroughly enmeshed with Israel's."

Read that last sentence again and then ask yourself: in what way are Britain's media and financial interests "thoroughly enmeshed" with Israel's?
Posted By: Our Lady's slave Re: Ukraine - 12/01/04 01:39 PM
DJM

Taken from
http://www.cvk.gov.ua/wp300ept001f01=501

the results of the poll on 21 November were

Victor Yanukovych 49.46% 15093691 votes in total
Victor Yuschenko 46.61% 14222289 votes in total


In the article which you quoted was
Quote
And whereas Yanukovich was officially credited with 54 per cent of the vote,
Now if they cannot quote accurate figures from the government source are we really supposed to believe the rest of the article ?

Anhelyna - whose address on this Site is accurate
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Ukraine - 12/01/04 02:48 PM
Dear Friends,

I think that even if the whole world went against the gangster capitalists Kuchma, Yanukovych and their allies, DJM would still be quoting those dubious articles written by their Western disinformation agents.

(He writes in perfect English for a "Lvovian.")

It is amazing that DJM would volunteer to be one of their dupes.

I've personally met Yuschenko and "that woman oligarch."

To call them that is simply laughable.

I've also met Kuchma and about, say, over forty of his people over the years. I've also spoken to former disinformation agents who escaped to the West (they walked away from their delegations while they were here).

Speaking of oligarchs . . .

Anyway, perhaps if DJM ("Dunce Just Mouthing?") wore some orange, he'd see the light (?)

But I've already made a post above decrying that "fanatical Ukrainian orange movement" and that was just to give more credible equal time to the opponents of "those Western dupes and would-be oligarchs who are against Mother Russia."

Long live the Russian empire! Long live Putin and Yanukovych! Long live . . .

Just trying to be objective . . . wink

But it would be unfortunate if this turned into a merely intellectual discussion on politics.

This is a real event being shaped by people in the streets, a real revolution of people organized around an idea and a colourful symbol.

As a sociologist, I am fascinated by how this is coming together. As a Ukrainian, I am proud of Ukraine and its people, all of its citizens.

I'm also proud that Yanukovych, who is also Ukrainian, has agreed to new elections. He, at least, knows when he's lost a round of battle. And for that, I think he deserves commendation. I've no liking for the man and what he represents, mind you.

Ties with Russia will continue, as they are inevitable. This is about Ukraine moving westwards toward the EU which is where it wants to be. If Russia is the ally to Europe and the U.S. that it says it now is, that shouldn't be too hard of a pill to swallow.

Alex
Posted By: ukrainiancatholic Re: Ukraine - 12/01/04 04:18 PM
A re-election would be detramental to the Orange Revolution.

Soon as the people leave Maidan Svobody to vote, I can garuntee the gov't won't let those people back into to shut down the city again.

The people need to stay there and keep pushing for Yushchenko's twice won victory.

You all should check out www.maidan.org.ua It has, in Ukrainian, troop movements to Russian special forces illegally landing in Ukrainian cities. They have a decent English section as well.

-uc
Posted By: ukrainiancatholic Re: Ukraine - 12/01/04 04:22 PM
Alex,

Consider this quote:

"Our only weapon is our refusal" - (the late great) Michael Collins

cool
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Ukraine - 12/01/04 05:03 PM
Dear UC,

My own take on this is that the Kuchma people will remove Yanukovych ("cut bait" as politicos say) and blame him for their failure.

The Russian troops won't help them as they are there to protect a fading gangster-government (reflective of their own, in fact).

I predict the Russians will make no move on anyone as the Orange movement is doing everything peacefully and with the world watching intently.

Putin, the ultimate arbiter for Kuchma and his cronies, has burned too many bridges to screw up even more in this situation.

And the Orange movement now has thousands of Ukrainian soldiers and cadets on their side - people who can actually fight back "just in case."

And they will, if push came to kalashnikov.

They've nothing to lose right now.

But the Russians and the Kuchma gangster-capitalists have already lost so much - they are working hard with their disinformation people to try and salvage whatever they think is salvageable.

But not much really is . . .

We should all be proud of the courage of those people, Ukrainians, Russians, Belarusyans, Carpatho-Rusyns etc. Ukrainian citizens all, who have shown such dramatic courage of late.

And we should be grateful to the governments of the USA, Canada, UK and EU for not fearing to call a "spade a spade" and supporting the Orange movement for democracy in Ukraine, despite the cat-calls of the Russians and their disinformation allies - sore losers all and the Russians will be even more sore when the democracy movement flowers like an Orange blossom throughout Russia - and it will.

Some have written to me and referred to "my position" on the matter.

I would just like to say, and I think I'm speaking on behalf of yourself and others here, that we have no "position."

Our position is the position of the Orange democracy movement, the people in the streets who have risked all, knowing the potential danger for them personally, the position of the military cadets and soldiers who have defied their government, the journalists of the radio station who publicly told the world they refuse to lie any longer for the government, the priests who pray openly in the streets of Kyiv and Lviv (or "Kiev and Lvov" for those for whom symbols have little meaning).

Our position is supporting their position, a position of courage, heroism, vulnerability, faith and readiness to sacrifice all for the good of the future of THEIR country.

It is a position taken by the governments of the West. It is a position being supported by even liberal journalists here as well.

There is no other position here - only ill-will against those vulnerable people and a desire to deny them the same kind of rights and freedoms enjoyed by the nations in which we have the privilege of living in.

Alex
Posted By: Gaudior Re: Ukraine - 12/01/04 05:27 PM
Once again, may God bless and protect the people of Ukraine, who are standing up for what they believe in, in a peaceable yet implacable manner. They are showing the world that violence and gangster governments will no longer be tolerated, and that violence and threatened violence have no place in a civilized, democratic government. Moreover, they are doing this in spite of great personal discomfort, hardship, and cold...all without violence on their part.

Gaudior, saying: God Bless Ukraina!
Posted By: Scandinavian Re: Ukraine - 12/01/04 06:08 PM
Just saw pictures on the news: supporters of Yushchenko in Orange and supporters of Yanukovych in Blue and White demonstrating peacefully SIDE BY SIDE in the capital of Ukraïna.

There is still hope...

Christian
Posted By: Our Lady's slave Re: Ukraine - 12/01/04 06:15 PM
I have been stunned reading the accounts of the last week or so. There, as far as I can see, has been no real trouble - and the potential was there for chaos, if not actual riots. The people of Ukraine and particularly Kyiv [ well , after all most of the publicised action has taken place there ] have behaved wonderfully - their self control has been an example to us all.

If reports have been correct - and I have no doubt that they were/are everyone has been fed - some of the tent dwellers even said it was better food than they woud have had at home.
They have had drinks and it was all orgainsed in a very orderly fashion. I also understand that some of the troops/police were not in fact fed as well as the crowds.

I was informed very early on that Russian Special Forces were present in Ukraine if not in Kyiv itself - so far they have not made their presence felt - please God it will continue to be 'un-felt'.

May St Michael continue to guard his people during these troubled times and afterwards too .

Anhelyna
Posted By: Amadeus Re: Ukraine - 12/01/04 07:02 PM
The example shown by the Ukrainian peoples, of all ethnicities and political orientation, clearly signifies their attainment of nationhood.

Gone are the days when other powers could easily dictate the terms.

More power to Ukraina!

Amado
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Ukraine - 12/01/04 07:06 PM
Dear Christian,

You have observed wisely!

The Yanukovich supporters know their man is on the way out - Yanukovich may still come out of this smelling like a real patriot and victim of Kuchma.

The Orange crowd has also been feeding members of the "Blue/white" crowd.

There's no need for violence anywhere there, both sides respect each other and, I will say, both sides know who is on the winning streak right now.

And the Yanukovich supporters know that the Orange movement will NOT persecute them in the least when Yuschenko, in the end, will win.

Yuschenko's parting words to me when I met him at the legislature were, "Remember to pray always for the people and country of your parents!"

I have always taken that as a command that I strive to fulfill!

Then we embraced and kissed thrice and when I said, "Glory to Jesus Christ!" He responded with "His Glory forever!"

Let's also remember that when Yuschenko took the symbolic presidential oath of office last week, he not only did so on a copy of the Ukrainian constitution, but on a copy of the Ostrozhka Bible, or the Bible of Prince Constantine of Ostrih, a great defender of Orthodoxy (whose relics in the Kyivan Caves Lavra were removed and burned by Latins who feared his glorification as a saint and rallying point of the Orthodox and who thought that by destroying his relics, the Orthodox wouldn't canonize him).

Yuschenko would be the first truly Christian President of Ukraine who would not be afraid to profess his Orthodox Christian faith publicly nor to make the Sign of the Cross with pride.

Alex
Posted By: Amadeus Re: Ukraine - 12/01/04 08:29 PM
Dear Alex:

Behind a powerful and successful man is . . . a woman?

It seems the world's media are now only discovering (rediscovering) the clout of Yulia Tymoshenko, the forty-ish compleat woman-politician behind Yuschenko's presidential bid and the sychronized protests and your "Orange Revolution!"

Good for Ukraine to have emerging and dynamic leaders.

Amado
Posted By: Two Lungs Re: Ukraine - 12/02/04 02:26 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:

... The Orange crowd has also been feeding members of the "Blue/white" crowd. ...
A photo posted at Brama.com :

"For us Donetsk is not the enemy; come over for some pyrohy"

http://www.brama.com/news/press/slideshow/2004/041128vl_kyivmaidan/
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Ukraine - 12/02/04 01:53 PM
Dear Amado,

Ukrainian culture is matriarchal - no surprise that a woman has come to dominate in that entire situation over there!

The people calling her "oligarchical" probably can't stand it that a woman has outclassed them . . .

Alex
Posted By: Jean Francois Re: Ukraine - 12/03/04 01:10 AM
Soon after the election were over, Yanukovich sent militias into Kiev. They were left standing for two days without food. The orange crowd noticed the militias were hungry and decided to feed them. Striking coal miners from the East were treated the same way, as were many of the other 'paid demonstrators' from Eastern Ukraine. Many of them returned home only to praise the whole 'orange revolution' in Kiev.

EVERYONE in Kiev is participating in the care of the orange revolution participants. For example, the largest synagogue in Kiev has become a 24 hour per day cafeteria.

The front page of USA Today and the New York Times have feature photos (again) of the events. The papers say the crowds are swelling again and expected to ballon over the weekend when the rock concert marathon takes place in the Maidan (central square of Kiev).

Putin is again making more threats.

Divine liturgies and Christian prayers are being held in the open.

I.F.
Posted By: Diak Re: Ukraine - 12/03/04 01:30 AM
It is not widely known, but Metropolitan Vladimir Sabodan of the UOC/MP blessed Yushchenko on November 8th. It will be interesting to see if the MP tries to disclipline Sabodan for that action. The RISU article is at http://www.risu.org.ua/eng/news/article;3549/

Yushchenko already had the blessings of Patriarch Filaret and His Beatitude Lubomyr, and hierarchs of the UAOC. At least as far as the major Christian denominations go, the matter seems to be closed.

Why would any hierarch support an atheist over a Christian? It doesn't make sense.

Further potential rifts within the UOC-MP can be seen at http://5tv.com.ua/eng/newsline/119/0/2582/ I don't get so-called "christians" campaigning for an atheist...
Posted By: ukrainiancatholic Re: Ukraine - 12/03/04 03:34 AM
Diak,

That is very interesting.

I have met President Yushchenko on many occasions and have personally gone to church with him. He is a member of the UOC-KP and frequents the services at St. Michael's the Golden Domed Monastery just down the street from St. Sophia.

He is very supportive of the UGCC. I had the privelege of sitting next to him and his family at the Papal Divine Liturgy in Kyiv in 2001.

-uc
Posted By: KO63AP Re: Ukraine - 12/03/04 12:07 PM
Hot news from Kyiv.....

Clergy of the UOC-MP are setting up a 'chapel' on Khreschatyk near Maidan and will be leading prayers there later this afternoon (local time). biggrin

I'd love to learn if this is being done with the blessing of hierarchs.

&#1057;&#1093;&#1110;&#1076; &#1110; &#1079;&#1072;&#1093;&#1110;&#1076; - &#1056;&#1040;&#1047;&#1054;&#1052;!
Posted By: Our Lady's slave Re: Ukraine - 12/03/04 12:27 PM
Now that I suspect is something we will never know.

But I also wonder if all the 'blue and white' processions with their multitude of religious banners were also with the blessing of the clergy.

Anhelyna
Posted By: Antrodox Re: Ukraine - 12/03/04 02:20 PM
There were several clips of UOC-MP faithful in a processional in favour of the government candidate Yanukovich. One participant in the procession suggested that the Orthodox ought to vote for an Orthodox president. The clips were taken just prior to the first vote.

Shortly afterward Metropolitan Sobodan, UOC-MP, appeared on Ukrainian television and distanced the UOC-MP from any notion of direct and outright support of any specific candidate.
Posted By: Diak Re: Ukraine - 12/03/04 03:28 PM
Further indications of dissent within the UOC-MP:

http://www.risu.org.ua/eng/news/article;3864/ Some clergy have formally requested Yanukovych and Kuchma to resign.

It seems not all of the UOC-MP clergy want to support atheist criminals and realize an Orthodox President is a much better option.
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Ukraine - 12/03/04 03:40 PM
Dear Diak,

Excellent point.

Sometimes we Ukies give the impression that we are against the entire UOC-MP when, in fact, the majority of clergy there have very pro-Ukrainian independence sentiments - they are just unwilling to join with Filaret (who, let us remember, is not without faults in his past).

Even Met. Vladimir Sabodan - my uncles who were/are Orthodox priests tell me, is a very warm individual.

He is also GREATLY respected by the clergy of the UOC-KP and the UAOC, most of whom had him as their theology professor.

I pray that one day Met. Vladimir might become Ukraine's independent Orthodox Patriarch, uniting all Orthodox in Ukraine (and also not a few Greek-Catholics? wink ).

Alex
Posted By: Bernardo Re: Ukraine - 12/03/04 04:11 PM
News Alert from the Washington Post

Ukraine Supreme Court Cancels Election Results

Ukraine's Supreme Court declared the results of that nation's disputed presidential run-off election invalid and ruled Friday that a repeat vote should be held.

For more information, visit washingtonpost.com.

God bless
Posted By: Our Lady's slave Re: Ukraine - 12/03/04 04:20 PM
Indeed - just seen it on Brit TV - the second round has been declared invalid smile

BUT the date that it is expected for a new vote is December 26 frown
Posted By: KO63AP Re: Ukraine - 12/03/04 04:41 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Our Lady's slave of love:
Indeed - just seen it on Brit TV - the second round has been declared invalid smile

BUT the date that it is expected for a new vote is December 26 frown
Which means that, airlines permitting, Old Calendarists should have the time to go to Ukraine as observers. biggrin

If anyone is interested I suggest contacting the Ukrainian Congress Committee of America . This is for non-Americans as well. I know that the UCCA helped register observers not just from the USA, but also Canada, Great Britain and probably a few other countries. For those who do decide to go send me a PM and I'll share a few personal comments about monitoring in Ukraine.

&#1056;&#1072;&#1079;&#1086;&#1084; &#1085;&#1072;&#1089; &#1073;&#1072;&#1075;&#1072;&#1090;&#1086; - &#1085;&#1072;&#1089; &#1085;&#1077; &#1087;&#1086;&#1076;&#1086;&#1083;&#1072;&#1090;&#1080;!
Posted By: Amadeus Re: Ukraine - 12/03/04 04:44 PM
Does someone have a source for the decision, in its entirety, of the Supreme Court?

The highest Court's verdict of a "repeat vote" "on or by December 26" appears capable of equivocal interpretation.

However, the decision seems to have acceded to the petition of the opposition led by Yuschenko(and backed by the Polish President) and against the wishes of Pres. Kuchma and PM Yanukovich (with the backing of Pres. Putin of Russia).

So, this should be a classic re-run of the 2nd run-off election only between the two Viktors and no other candidate else.

An East-West encuentro! Mano y mano! No holds barred! Orange vs. Blue (and White) and Russian Red! biggrin

Amado
Posted By: KO63AP Re: Ukraine - 12/03/04 04:51 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Amadeus:
Does someone have a source for the decision, in its entirety, of the Supreme Court?
Amado
Amado,

The Supreme Court's web site can be found here: &#1042;&#1077;&#1088;&a...;#1072;&#1111;&#1085;&#1080; .

Before you get all excited, there is no English version of the site and the text of the decision has not yet been published.

&#1056;&#1072;&#1079;&#1086;&#1084; &#1085;&#1072;&#1089; &#1073;&#1072;&#1075;&#1072;&#1090;&#1086; - &#1085;&#1072;&#1089; &#1085;&#1077; &#1087;&#1086;&#1076;&#1086;&#1083;&#1072;&#1090;&#1080;!
Posted By: KO63AP Re: Ukraine - 12/03/04 05:33 PM
The text of the decision of the Supreme Court of Ukraine (Civil Chamber) is now available online in Ukrainian . Text courtesy of Interfax-Ukraine .

&#1056;&#1072;&#1079;&#1086;&#1084; &#1085;&#1072;&#1089; &#1073;&#1072;&#1075;&#1072;&#1090;&#1086; - &#1085;&#1072;&#1089; &#1085;&#1077; &#1087;&#1086;&#1076;&#1086;&#1083;&#1072;&#1090;&#1080;!
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Ukraine - 12/03/04 05:40 PM
Dear Friends,

Good for all the "podoliaky" I say! smile

FYI, with all the unity our UC community up here is experiencing of late, I'd hate to see all the commotion across the pond end too soon . . . wink

Alex
Posted By: Halychanyn Re: Ukraine - 12/03/04 08:11 PM
Dear Alex, et al:

Makes all the "partiya" nonsence of years past seem all the more silly, doesn't it?

Anyway - not a time to dwell on the past. Time to look toward the future.

Could Ukrainain ecclesiastical unity be far behind? HMMMM. biggrin

&#1056;&#1072;&#1079;&#1086;&#1084; &#1085;&#1072;&#1089; &#1073;&#1072;&#1075;&#1072;&#1090;&#1086; - &#1085;&#1072;&#1089; &#1085;&#1077; &#1087;&#1086;&#1076;&#1086;&#1083;&#1072;&#1090;&#1080;!

Yours,

hal
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Ukraine - 12/03/04 08:29 PM
Hallo Hal!

Yes, all the partiya nonsense . . .

Now, we're all saying "Slava Ukrayini! smile

(And you know who started that way back when . . .)

Did you know that Stepan Bandera's father, Fr. Andrij Bandera, is on the list of future New Martyrs?

Alex
Posted By: Jean Francois Re: Ukraine - 12/04/04 01:00 AM
Amadeus:

The courts have stated:

(1) That the second round of voting was 'flawed' and had to be repeated.

(2) Only the two original secound round final candidates can be included: Victor Yuschenko and Victor Yanukovich.

(3) If Yanukovich decides he will not run (because now everyone knows he is a gangster and rapist and bank robber and probably not good presidential material) against Yuschenko, then it will be Yuschenko against the third candidate (from the first round); Moroz.

(4) If Moroz decides he does not want to run against Yuschenko (with whom he partnered in the second round), then Yuschenko can run alone on the ballot.

(5) The winner must have 50% of the vote (even if he runs alone).

Victor Yuschenko wrote a lengthy 'opinion editorial' in today's Wall Street Journal. Next to this was a very favorable editorial exposing the evil of Putin and Kuchma.

Yuschenko may still be killed by secret Russian agents, or they may still try to declare martial law and postpone the vote indefinetely, or.....

All Polish churches will have special prayers on Sunday for democracy, fair elections, and the people of Ukraine. I think the Poles have a good idea.

I.F.
Posted By: Antrodox Re: Ukraine - 12/04/04 04:16 PM
Jean-Francois wrote:
Quote
Yuschenko may still be killed....
There is a dastardly twist to all this.

The Ukrainian Constitution allows for the Prime Minister to become President if there are no presidential candidates.
Posted By: Our Lady's slave Re: Ukraine - 12/04/04 06:13 PM
It was announced a short time ago [about 5pm - but I was cooking at that point smile ] on the evening TV News that Yanukovych has announced he will be standing in the new 2nd round on Dec 26.

Maybe this is correct , maybe it is a smoke screen - my information is that if he pulls out now then the nearest 'loser' in the origional Round one would replace him for this new round 2.

However if Yanukovych pulles out nearer the date [ about 10 days I think - though not 100% sure of this ] then only Yushenko would be on the ballot papers but he would have to have over 50% of the votes cast.

So the question is - does Yanukovych really intend to stand ?
Posted By: Diak Re: Ukraine - 12/04/04 08:56 PM
Yanukovych's campaign manager has resigned, and more of the deputies are moving over to Yushchenko. December 26th was the day mentioned again on BBC World Service as that set aside by the Supreme Court for the re-election.
Posted By: Jean Francois Re: Ukraine - 12/04/04 11:15 PM
Vladimir Putin has announced today "that under no no conditions should a 3rd round of voting take place in Ukraine" as announce for December 26, 2004.

KGB agent Putin has publicly) stated today that people loyal to the Russian empire should do eveything possible to ensure that the elections do not take place.

"Everything possible" may include killing Yuschenko (or even Kuchma or Yanukovich), or finding (or creating if needed) a reason to declare martial law, then postpone the elections indefinitely, or using millions of dollars they have to bribe as many people as possible, or .....

International observers will be needed again. They are seeking people who are able to spend at least two full weeks in Ukraine. They will need more than the 5000 they had last time AND people who are willing to stay for the duration. Due to the Christmas holiday period, it has become more difficult to have Christians volunteer.

The Ukrainian American communittee is seeking candidates to monitor the elections. Please contact your local Ukie church to volunteer.

If you do not follow the 'old calendar' (Julian) please consider doing so this year and volunteer with other members of your church (I'm sure Jesus would approve). Do not worry about the cost of the trip, most if not all of it will be paid for by donations.

THE SITUATION IS DIRE - PLEASE ACT AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. IF YOU HAVE ALREADY BEEN, PLEASE RE-ENLIST.

I.F.
Posted By: Jean Francois Re: Ukraine - 12/04/04 11:32 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Our Lady's slave of love:
Maybe this is correct , maybe it is a smoke screen - my information is that if he pulls out now then the nearest 'loser' in the origional Round one would replace him for this new round 2.

However if Yanukovych pulles out nearer the date [ about 10 days I think - though not 100% sure of this ] then only Yushenko would be on the ballot papers [b] but
he would have to have over 50% of the votes cast.

So the question is - does Yanukovych really intend to stand ? [/b]
The strategy is to do everything possible NOT TO HAVE A 3RD ROUND (That's the buzz here in D.C.).

The 'orange revolution' has already spread to Uzbekestan and Moldova which have thrown their support to Yuschenko. Belarus is rubbling (that's more than that country ever does) and Russia is desperate to hold it's (evil) empire together.

Comrade KGB agent turned pseudo-czarevich Putin will do everything possible to keep the 'old empire order' in place. The New York Times did a featue article today on the attempted assassination of Yuschenko using an unknown CHEMICAL AND/OR BIOLOGICAL AGENT. Is Putin willing to use this on a larger scale to stop the 3rd roudn of voting (the 'orange revolution') ?

I will be attending the Polish Roman Catholic Church this Sunday to pray for Ukraine. Please also attend a Ukrainian or Polish church to pray for 48,000,000 people who are seeking nothing more than what the rest of Europe has.

I.F.
Posted By: Mr. Clean Re: Ukraine - 12/05/04 02:13 AM
I read Pat Buchanan's column in the paper today. Usually, I ignore it because I deem Buchanan to be an idiot.

Buchanan criticized the West for supporting Yushchenko. It's as if he is making an excuse for Russia to control Ukraine and saying that it is no business of the West who runs the country.

As I said, Buchanan is an idiot, but an even more stupid one than I judged him to be. I will make it a point to pray for freedom in Ukraine daily. This Pole (I think I have a bit of Ukie blood but I can't prove it) desires freedom for the Ukranian people.
Posted By: ukrainiancatholic Re: Ukraine - 12/06/04 05:18 AM
Putin has absolutely made a total idiot out of himself these past two weeks and he has definately ruined what respectable image he had in the world.

Maybe all the sins he has committed murdering innocent people is comming back to haunt him.

On a lighter note, who wants to egg Yanukovych? It's a fun game! http://www.politikan.com.ua/web/ya3/index.htm

????? ??? ?????? - ??? ?? ????????!

Prayers for Ukraine.....
Posted By: Our Lady's slave Re: Ukraine - 12/06/04 08:00 AM
UC
Now that is indeed a bit of innocent fun biggrin

On a more serious note though :_

Yesterday I passed on thanks to our Parish Priest/Pastor for the Prayers that were offered last week during Mass for Ukraine and its peoples.

His reply ,when I said that I hoped that they would continue till settlement of the Presidency was over, was

" Well it's over now - they have their new Election !"

My Jaw dropped - and I commented that prayers were needed more than ever that this new 2nd round would be a fair election - with people being able to vote without hassle , people voting once [ and not, as has happened many times, using absentee ballots ], that there were no pens filled with vanishing ink , and ballot boxes did not vanish on the way to the count and the papers inside these boxes did not mysteriously disintegrate.

Dunno if this went in though frown

AND - I was wearing my orange ribbon.

Anhelyna - who does her very best to raise the profile of Ukraine.
Posted By: Irish Melkite Re: Ukraine - 12/06/04 09:44 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Our Lady's slave of love:
Anhelyna - who does her very best to raise the profile of Ukraine.
Anhelyna,

I think you've done an incredible job of posting news from the BBC and other European outlets on the situation in Ukraine (it's especially appreciated by we non-Slavs, who aren't able to translate the non-English sites). You are owed thanks from all of us.

As soon as my Uke brethren allow me to register to vote cool , I'm casting my ballot for you as Honorary Ukrainian #1 here at the Forum smile .

Many years,

Neil
Posted By: Our Lady's slave Re: Ukraine - 12/06/04 11:13 AM
Hehe - sorry Neil - too late with that one - I was adopted as a Ukie long ago - indeed when no lesser person than Alex decided it was time I had a Ukie name biggrin

But thanks so much for the complement - I do appreciate it.

Man - I can't translate the non- English Sites either biggrin - but I do have a wee list of those which offer an English version - though it's often several days behind hand frown

Anhelyna - the non Ukie Ukie biggrin
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Ukraine - 12/06/04 01:55 PM
Dear Friends,

As one placard read at a demonstration here - "Put In Garbage!"

I asked my kids in religion class who attended the demonstrations so far - almost all raised their hands.

I asked one boy why he went - he said because all his friends were going.

Then he said, (and he doesn't speak Ukrainian), but " I really went because . . . I love Ukraine."

Alex
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Ukraine - 12/06/04 02:03 PM
Dear Friends,

It cannot be doubted that a major showdown is now underway involving Putin.

By fighting for the "Russian empire" (excuse me while I "glasnost. . ."), Putin is also fighting for his own political life and his efforts aimed at maintaining a centralized grip on Russia and its subtle satellites.

But the end cannot but be near for him and his reign, thanks be to God our Liberator.

As for Buchanan, that fellow is the one who once penned an article in which he described the break-up of Canada and how the U.S. should "pick up the pieces" of the remaining provinces.

The U.S. should then just take the Baja peninsula as payment for all the help it has given to Mexico - and then buy Greenland from Denmark.

That is why he defends Putin - imperial dreamers share much in common.

"Put-In Garbage!"

Alex
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Ukraine - 12/06/04 02:10 PM
Dear Neil,

Yes, Anhelyna was ordained an honorary Ukrainian by me some time ago. A name change was involved, very much as what happens when one receives monastic tonsure.

One only need to click on one's computer mouse three times, then kiss it, then jump up and pretend one is doing the "Hopak" Ukrainian dance as one pronounces one's new Ukrainian name with as much of a Slavic accent as one's Anglo-Celtic background will allow . . .

Alex
Posted By: Intrigued Latin Re: Ukraine - 12/06/04 02:11 PM
Alex,
Last Friday night, after attending my ritual indoor soccer game, I decided to take Bloor Street home, in the hopes to see the Christmas lights on the trees and retail stores.
To my surprise outside the Russian embassy, I encountered hundreds of protesters. I immediately grabbed my gym bag, pulled out my orange soccer jersey, and waved it outside my window, and honked my horn. I was greeted with loud cheers and a few "hopefully" kind Ukrainian words from the assembly.

Just my two cents in support of your people and their quest.

Brad
Posted By: Irish Melkite Re: Ukraine - 12/06/04 02:30 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
The U.S. should then just take the Baja peninsula as payment for all the help it has given to Mexico - and then buy Greenland from Denmark.
Alex,

"Buy"? We've let Greenland have the honor of hosting our airbase at Thule all these years - now you want us to pay money? You Canadian Ukes, no sense of values wink .

Next thing, you'll be expecting each province to be made a state (Pat says you can have 2 senators and be grateful for that :p ).

Many years,

Neil
Posted By: Irish Melkite Re: Ukraine - 12/06/04 03:09 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
One only need to click on one's computer mouse three times, then kiss it, then jump up and pretend one is doing the "Hopak" Ukrainian dance as one pronounces one's new Ukrainian name with as much of a Slavic accent as one's Anglo-Celtic background will allow
Alex,

Well, it's easy to see then why she chose to become an honorary Ukrainian rather than an honorary Irishwoman. Your requirements are much easier to fulfill biggrin . To go Irish, one must place one's computer monitor on the floor, lie on the desk from whence it came, hang bent backwards over the edge, and kiss the screen as a photo of the Blarney Stone scrolls across (marquee style) at breakneck speed, while sipping Jameson's from a hip flask or a cuppa from beleek china and either singing the Irish National Anthem (preferably in Irish Gaelic, but dispensation can be had, for a price) or reciting Robert Emmett's Speech from the Dock.

Many years,

Neil
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Ukraine - 12/06/04 04:00 PM
Dear Brad,

When we have the good ol' Irish on our side, we just KNOW we're gonna win!!

Thanks!

Alex
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Ukraine - 12/06/04 04:05 PM
Dear Neil,

Actually, that was your compatriot Pat Buchanan who mentioned that stuff about buying

As for honorary Irish, I'm sure those participating, once they got the hang of it, would want to renew their pledge rather frequently . . . wink

We once had a thread about vagante ordinations here (to give you some indication as to how old that thread was, Dr. John was still posting here!).

And then we exchanged ways of ordaining one another over the internet.

I actually consecrated Phil - Mor Ephrem a "Catholicos" over the entire South-West USA . . .

While I'm sure my internet ordination won't stand up to canonical scrutiny, JUST IN CASE, we've referred to him as "the Catholicos" ever since . . . wink

Alex
Posted By: Our Lady's slave Re: Ukraine - 12/06/04 04:09 PM
I hesitate to say it Neil - but your method would be exceedingly difficult for me

1) put my beloved iBook on the floor for the Spotted hound to walk on it - you are not on biggrin

2)Whiskey - no taa - have tried - I prefer Whisky biggrin

3) TEA - is outrage - was there tea in 19th C Russia ??

biggrin biggrin biggrin

Anhelyna
Posted By: Brian Re: Ukraine - 12/06/04 04:34 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Our Lady's slave of love:
I
3) TEA - is outrage - was there tea in 19th C Russia ??

biggrin biggrin biggrin

Anhelyna
DA!!! There was tea but with jam and only from Samovar!!!!

<Take it away, Father Vasily!> biggrin
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Ukraine - 12/06/04 04:41 PM
Dear Anhelyna,

Brian is right!

Russians drank their tea in a glass and placed thick marmalade or a sugar cube in their mouth as a way to sweeten it on the way down . . .

Russian tea is very dark and black - warms one up completely - and it was taken as a dessert. The Brits take it at four, as you know, and this was done only because Queen Victoria took tea at that time.

The French have it at five and before dinner.

So who shall be mother?

Alex
Posted By: Irish Melkite Re: Ukraine - 12/06/04 04:51 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
Actually, that was your compatriot Pat Buchanan who mentioned that stuff about buying
Alex,

Please ... watch out whom you describe as my compatriot. Pat Buchanan ain't one eek of mine.

Many years,

Neil, who can't and won't say anything nice about Mr. Buchanan, except that his Clan\'s tartan is one of my favorites.
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Ukraine - 12/06/04 05:00 PM
Dear Neil,

He's an Irish American Catholic, isn't he? wink

He ain't no Canadian, eh . . .

Alex
Posted By: Irish Melkite Re: Ukraine - 12/06/04 05:03 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
He's an Irish American Catholic, isn't he? wink
Alex,

Ah, my lad, he may be an American and a Catholic, but he is a Scot - no Irishman biggrin .

Many years,

Neil
Posted By: Intrigued Latin Re: Ukraine - 12/06/04 05:07 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Our Lady's slave of love:
2)Whiskey - no taa - have tried - I prefer Whisky biggrin
Anhelyna [/QB]
Anhelyna,
Although, I too agree with your preference to Whisky but you must try a "wee nip" o' Bushmills Black Bush. It's worthy of standing up with the best of them.
As I understand it, Whisky in Scotland is more expensive than the Whisky imported from Scotland to Canada. If you need me to send over a few half bottles, I can do that too. wink
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Ukraine - 12/06/04 05:18 PM
Dear Neil,

Ah, but I've always had trouble figuring out who the original Irish truly were and where they came from! wink

Alex
Posted By: Intrigued Latin Re: Ukraine - 12/06/04 05:27 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
Dear Neil,

Ah, but I've always had trouble figuring out who the original Irish truly were and where they came from! wink

Alex
Alex, take me for example.
I have an Irish last name, I live in Canada, born in Scotland, My Grandparents were Irish.
Sometimes I myself have difficulty with who I truly am. wink
Posted By: Irish Melkite Re: Ukraine - 12/06/04 05:42 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Intrigued Latin:
Sometimes I myself have difficulty with who I truly am. wink
Brad,

We all have that difficulty with you, just that nobody wanted to bring it up wink

Many years,

Neil
Posted By: Our Lady's slave Re: Ukraine - 12/06/04 05:59 PM
now now - that's not nice biggrin

If it hadn't been for Brad I would not have had a video of Alex biggrin
Posted By: Mikey Stilts Re: Ukraine - 12/06/04 06:34 PM
Speaking of Alex on video, I have patiently been waiting for the webmasters of the Holmes on Homes website to put up stills of that episode, but they've seemed to have skipped it entirely! Season 4 pics are up, but no Alex!

IS OUTRAGE! wink
Posted By: byzanTN Re: Ukraine - 12/06/04 07:52 PM
I know it's a shock, but some of us are grateful to not be Irish, Ukrainian, or Canadian. Anhelyna, for what it's worth, I buy all my tea from England. biggrin And yes, there was tea in 19th century Russia. biggrin No outrage there.
Posted By: Our Lady's slave Re: Ukraine - 12/06/04 07:57 PM
Mikey ,

Hmm - try this

http://www.holmesonhomes.com/?fuseaction=episodes.showEpisodesShort

scroll down till you get to 'wash and weep'

And there you have it - click on trailer and if you are lucky - you will actually see him for a couple of secs biggrin
Posted By: Mikey Stilts Re: Ukraine - 12/06/04 08:15 PM
Aha! There we go! Thank you, my dearest Anhelyna!

Funnily enough, my sister gave me that self-same Sherlock Holmes book twenty years ago. I still read it on an annual basis smile
Posted By: byzanTN Re: Ukraine - 12/06/04 09:06 PM
Well, it looks like the Ukrainians will get to vote again. I hope this resolves things.

New Vote
Posted By: Our Lady's slave Re: Ukraine - 12/07/04 02:52 PM
today's comment on the BBC News page seems to be a fair comment on what I had gathered yesterday

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4073691.stm#

There is a short Video clip - quality is not the greatest - but it does help

The government and opposition in Kiev have failed to reach a comprehensive deal, despite lengthy overnight talks.

But the two sides did agree to appoint a new central election commission, and on the need for electoral reform before the re-run of the presidential poll.

The sticking points are the question of constitutional reforms and opposition demands to sack the government.


and further down the same article

Monday's talks in Kiev represented the first time since the supreme court ruling that the two rivals had sat down together to negotiate.

President Kuchma announced that both sides had agreed on key opposition demands to reform electoral rules and appoint a new electoral commission.

But he refused to sack the government - another key opposition demand - even though it lost a parliamentary no-confidence vote last week.

The two sides also failed to agree constitutional reforms to weaken the powers of the president, a move favoured by Mr Kuchma.

But Mr Yuschenko - who believes he was the rightful winner of November's poll - says they would leave the president as a mere figurehead.

The opposition has said that unless all its demands are met, the street protests that have lasted for more than two weeks will continue.

Mr Yanukovych vowed on Monday to contest the re-run of the disputed poll, saying he had come under pressure to withdraw.

He said he had the support of millions of Ukrainians and was confident of winning, adding that he was going to take time off from government for the campaign.


Anhelyna
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Ukraine - 12/07/04 03:21 PM
Dear Anhelyna,

Whatever happens in Ukraine, one thing is certain - there is no going back.

I was going to go to Ukraine to be an observer (actually received an invitation to come over from someone a number of people know here) but, today, my plans were cancelled due to an unforeseen circumstance.

I've never been more proud of my Ukrainian roots and identity - never.

Alex
Posted By: lpreima Re: Ukraine - 12/07/04 04:31 PM
Hey Alex,
Now I know what you look like. I was expecting someone older with a white beard and glasses with a high forehead and smoking a pipe.
You really fooled me.
Lauro
Posted By: ukrainiancatholic Re: Ukraine - 12/07/04 05:16 PM
I am going as an observer, as of last nite.

Donbas, here I come!
Posted By: byzanTN Re: Ukraine - 12/07/04 05:49 PM
Quote
Originally posted by lpreima:
Hey Alex,
Now I know what you look like. I was expecting someone older with a white beard and glasses with a high forehead and smoking a pipe.
You really fooled me.
Lauro
I know what you mean. I was expecting him to look more --- I guess Patriarchal?

Charles
Posted By: Halychanyn Re: Ukraine - 12/08/04 02:02 AM
Quote
I've never been more proud of my Ukrainian roots and identity - never.
Please allow me to second that.

&#1056;&#1072;&#1079;&#1086;&#1084; &#1085;&#1072;&#1089; &#1073;&#1072;&#1075;&#1072;&#1090;&#1086; - &#1085;&#1072;&#1089; &#1085;&#1077; &#1087;&#1086;&#1076;&#1086;&#1083;&#1072;&#1090;&#1080;!

Yours,

hal
Posted By: LaFamiliaFelix Re: Ukraine - 12/08/04 02:49 AM
I asked a former student of mine, who is from Ukraine, what she thought about the current situation in Ukraine. She told me she is a Yanukovich supporter for two reasons. First, she said that Ukraine gets electricity and other basic utilities from Russia, so friends there are necessary. Also, she said that the Russian language would not be made the second official language, and she feels it should be. Are either of these reasons facts? I should point out that this student is from Kiev, but her father is Russian.
Posted By: Fr. Deacon Lance Re: Ukraine - 12/08/04 02:28 PM
I hope Alex doesn't mind but here is a picture of Alex:

http://www.holmesonhomes.com/index....ture&pictureID=1361&galleryID=45
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Ukraine - 12/08/04 05:17 PM
Dear La Familia,

Yes, Yanukovich would have made Russian a second official language of Ukraine.

His platform ALSO includes giving automatic dual citizenship to all Ukrainians with Russia, keeping Ukraine within the Russian imperial orbit for good.

Yanukovich is a criminal, saved from prison by Kuchma and the two of them are war-lords over the gangster capitalist system in Ukraine.

Russians are fond of telling Ukrainians that they should be able to understand Russian, if not already speak it since they are from "Little Russia."

Now the time is coming when the Russians will have to squint hard to pick up on the Ukrainian words - which they will doubtless do excellently.

But Russian and other language rights are already protected and no one questions that.

Forcing Russian on succeeding generations of Ukrainians in a democratic Ukraine - that is what is being questioned.

I spoke with a number of relatives in Ukraine, all of whom were exhausted from the long demonstrations in Kyiv.

These are MY relatives, normally easy-going, timid people (like me).

They all said that they are going for broke now and that they cannot put up with the kind of economic rape that is going on thanks to the government.

As for electricity, the real sparks have yet to fly . . .

Alex
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Ukraine - 12/08/04 05:20 PM
Dear Father Deacon,

And what does that picture have to do with this thread?

If I were wearing an orange scarf, maybe . . . wink

And, of course, the Administrator will probably let you off and not comment on coming into a thread on Ukraine with my picture . . . doubtless because you are a deacon . . . real discrimination in favour of clergy here . . . now I really feel like that orange scarf. . . wait, I have it on already!

God bless,

Alex
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Ukraine - 12/08/04 07:03 PM
Dear Father Deacon,

I hope you know I was joking with you in the post above.

I apologise if you didn't! wink

Alex
Posted By: Deacon John Montalvo Re: Ukraine - 12/08/04 10:25 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Deacon Lance:
I hope Alex doesn't mind but here is a picture of Alex:

http://www.holmesonhomes.com/index....ture&pictureID=1361&galleryID=45
What! No facial hair?!? wink
Posted By: Jean Francois Re: Ukraine - 12/09/04 01:31 AM
Quote
Originally posted by LaFamiliaFelix:
I asked a former student of mine, who is from Ukraine, what she thought about the current situation in Ukraine. She told me she is a Yanukovich supporter for two reasons. First, she said that Ukraine gets electricity and other basic utilities from Russia, so friends there are necessary. Also, she said that the Russian language would not be made the second official language, and she feels it should be. Are either of these reasons facts? I should point out that this student is from Kiev, but her father is Russian.
Your former student hit the proverbial nail on the head. Russia is attempting to use it's wealth from it's natural resources to subjugate not only Ukraine, but Western Europe.

Contrary to what your former student stated, Ukraine imports little if any electricity from Russia. However, Ukraine imports ALL of it's natural gas and oil from Russia.

Why should Ukraine's carbon fuel purchases from Russia provide a basis for making Russian an official language in Ukraine ?

Russia is the world's leading exporter of natural gas and number two for oil after Saudia Arabia. Most is exported to Western Europe (ie: France & Germany). Using your former student's logic, Russian should be made an official languages in these countries also.

Please ask your student if she feels that Russian should also be an offical language in Western Europe because of their large purchases of carbon fuels from Russia ?

Russia is about to have it's new found wealth in carbon fuels come to an end. The Odesa-Brody pipeline is why Putin is trying to truncate Ukraine. The reverse flow of this pipeline will permit ALL Europeans to enjoy other cheap carbon fuel alternatives from other regions (ie: Caspian Sea countries).

Young Ukrainians have affirmed their right to live and work in Ukrainian. They have reversed generations of colonial Russian rule. Perhaps the Russians wish to help the 4 million ethinic Ukrainian who can't get any support their native language in Russia.

I.F.
Posted By: byzanTN Re: Ukraine - 12/09/04 03:33 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Deacon John Montalvo:
Quote
Originally posted by Deacon Lance:
[b] I hope Alex doesn't mind but here is a picture of Alex:

http://www.holmesonhomes.com/index....ture&pictureID=1361&galleryID=45
What! No facial hair?!? wink [/b]
Yeah, I always pictured Alex as looking more like this.

His Holiness Patriarch Alex biggrin
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Ukraine - 12/09/04 02:52 PM
Dear Father Deacon and Charles,

That whole period of renovation for the TV show was like a close shave in more ways than one . . .

wink

Alex
Posted By: LaFamiliaFelix Re: Ukraine - 12/09/04 05:21 PM
Jean Francois,
Obviously you are very passionate about the original topic of this thread! However, I think that either my post was unclear, or you misunderstood.
1.)The former student with whom I spoke was interested in Russian being the second language in Ukraine because she is ethnically part Russian. She was concerned that the right to learn Russian in schools might be taken away under Yushenko. This concern was unrelated to the concern about electricity and other resources.
2.)She said that she would not like to see the quality of life in Ukraine (where her grandparents, aunts, uncles, cousins, etc. still live!) suffer because of a break in diplomatic and/or trade relations with Russia. This is her opinion.
3.)I posted the story and asked if her opinions were indeed based upon factual information because I did not know, not to be argumentative.
4.)I will not ask her any of those questions. She has a right to her own opinion about her country's political situation.
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Ukraine - 12/09/04 06:01 PM
Dear Felix,

Actually, improving the quality of life in Ukraine is what the citizens of Ukraine (Ukrainian, Russian, Carpatho-Rusyn etc.) who are supporters of Yuschenko would like, including all of my extended family and that of my wife's et al.

The best insight into what kind of poverty the people over there are in is to be had by having family members living there and to be actively engaged oneself in sending them parcels.

And that is a whole different world!

Yes, they play the guilt trump card on you, writing letters that make the in-laws cry (my father-in-law is doing less crying these days).

We've had over thirty visits from them over here plus the benefit of many new arrivals on work visas who attend our parishes.

Even the Ukrainian emigre communities have quite the romantic notion about life in Ukraine now . . . as Yuschenko, for one, related at a banquet in his honour two years ago.

To sober us up, I suppose, Yuschenko said that "in Ukraine today, there are children being raised by their grandparents, because their parents can only make a decent wage in Portugal et al."

To declare Ukrainian the official language does NOT mean that language rights of others would be trampled on - it doesn't even mean that Russian wouldn't be used in official documents.

When Ukraine declared its independence in 1918, the declaration was issued in four languages at the same time: Ukrainian, Russian, Polish and Hebrew.

I find it rather odd for this to be raised by Russians who have, for long, supported a policy of Russification of its Eastern European satellites. That policy was in place long before the Bolsheviks took Russia over.

Economically, it just doesn't make sense for Ukraine not to seek close economic ties with the EU and North America. Ukrainians DO see themselves as central Europeans.

In addition, the pro-Russian forces simply have Kuchma and his cronies to blame for the current situation of unrest that has gripped Ukraine (I still rub my eyes in disbelief and ask my Ukrainian friends "Are those really Ukrainians demonstrating?")

This is all about economics and the revolt against gangster capitalism.

To his credit, Yuschenko has followed a solid path toward achieving democratic legitimacy for his party and movement.

Kuchma, his cronies and his family have all become very wealthy.

When poor people see that, it is amazing how many will take to the streets.

A "people's government?" Ah, no . . .

Again, your student should be reassured that her language rights will always be better protected in a democratic Ukraine, than any other's in Russia.

Alex
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Ukraine - 12/10/04 01:50 PM
Dear Friends,

An article appeared in a paper up here by one Neil Barnett on the situation in Ukraine.

Basically, Neil is dead-set against Ukraine moving toward the EU.

Interestingly enough, he quite openly asserts that Kuchma and Yanukovych are all that is said about them. But the people in the east like them because of the social safety net they provide.

An amazing article that defends gangsterism because the people are a little better off etc. But the people in the accompanying photograph and that he talks about are old former communist party members, all wearing not orange or blue/white, but their red medals.

Ah, western journalists . . .

Alex
Posted By: lpreima Re: Ukraine - 12/10/04 04:05 PM
Who knows, maybe Mr. Barnett has a red medal himself, and if he doesn't, maybe he has just qualified himself in receiving one after the article he has written.
Lauro
Posted By: Pani Rose Re: Ukraine - 12/10/04 06:33 PM
This is a good example of how the former Communist countries will evangelize. The faith is strong! And look what they brought to the protests. http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/041207/photos_ts/mdf787108
Posted By: Pani Rose Re: Ukraine - 12/10/04 06:37 PM
Hey,

I think this one is kind of like our lives. We think we can hide things from Jesus and they will never be found. I bet that guy was supprised, just like we are when God supprises us by bringing us to confession. Then we get made into a new creation too!

http://www.holmesonhomes.com/index....ture&pictureID=1334&galleryID=45
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Ukraine - 12/10/04 06:40 PM
Dear Pani Rose,

There were all sorts of "rip offs" involved . . . wink

Alex
Posted By: Pani Rose Re: Ukraine - 12/10/04 06:54 PM
Well Alex,

It looks like God truly blessed you and made it right!

Pani Rose
Posted By: incognitus Re: Ukraine - 12/22/04 08:29 PM
As of Wednesday evening, more than 12,000 foreign Observers of the election this coming Sunday have been registered in Kyiv. That's much more than double the number the last time. That should at least discourage the shenanigans of the previous balloting. But there's still room for more observers - anyone wish to go?

Incognitus
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Ukraine - 12/22/04 08:48 PM
Dear Incognitus,

A number of friends of mine here have gone, including Hritzko's brother whom I know.

I was asked if I'd consider going.

I said I would, but I'm just too old for that sort of thing nowadays.

A blessed Feast of the Conception of St Anne!

Alex
Posted By: Our Lady's slave Re: Ukraine - 12/22/04 08:55 PM
Not all who volunteered have been accepted frown

I do know someone who was there for the last round as an official observer and has not benn accepted this time.

I do hope that peace will prevail this time and that the right man wins
Posted By: Ung-Certez Re: Ukraine - 12/23/04 02:51 AM
Alex,

CNN is now (9:47 pm EDT) airing the Ukrainian Presidential Debate. It's hard to make out what they are saying because of the English over dubbing. Is Yanukovych speaking po-Ukrainskij or
po-Rossisky??

Ung-Certez [pulling for Yushchenko wink ]
Posted By: Ung-Certez Re: Ukraine - 12/23/04 02:54 AM
Cekaj,

Make that C-SPAN and not CNN.

Ung-Certez
Posted By: incognitus Re: Ukraine - 12/23/04 07:50 AM
Yushchenko was speaking Ukrainian; Yanukovich was speaking Russian. Various comments occur to me, but I shall resist the temptation, at least for now.

Incognitus
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Ukraine - 12/23/04 02:14 PM
Dear Friends,

And on the UOC-MP site (www.orthodox.org.ua) there is an article about an award given by the Church to Yanukovych for assistance he gave to a monastery.

The man is a convicted felon, for one thing, and the UOC-MP is doing this during an election campaign, after much hullaballoo about it NOT getting involved in politics.

Alex
Posted By: Our Lady's slave Re: Ukraine - 12/23/04 03:04 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
Dear Friends,

And on the UOC-MP site (www.orthodox.org.ua) there is an article about an award given by the Church to Yanukovych for assistance he gave to a monastery.

The man is a convicted felon, for one thing, and the UOC-MP is doing this during an election campaign, after much hullaballoo about it NOT getting involved in politics.

Alex
Ah now come on Alex - or maybe I am being the innocent here :p But if challenged the UOC-MP Hierarchs are going to say something along the lines of

"Not us guv, after all we had said no electioneering . We cannot be blamed for the actions of one person. Oh - and this is not electioneering either - we gave the man this award because of something he did - the fact that it is at this particular time is fortuitous "

Yeah - right - and we will believe them too - hahahahahahaha [Linked Image] [Linked Image]

Cynical Anhelyna
Posted By: Halychanyn Re: Ukraine - 12/23/04 05:08 PM
There's something interesting going on that I have not noticed before.

On the BBC news last night, they showed Yanukovich supporters with signs that read "Orthodox Faith - Orthodox President." This follows shots of "religious processions" with icons, crosses, etc.

Has the MP convinced these people that Yuschenko will not be a good President because he belongs to the "un-cannonical" KP? Sheesh! :rolleyes:

The Western media want to paint this as a Catholic-Orthodox divide. We all know that's not entirely true and they seem to have stopped.

The real story appears to be that it is the MP against all the other "confessions" in Ukraine.

Yours,

hal
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Ukraine - 12/23/04 05:14 PM
Dear Hal and Anhelyna,

So I guess it's O.K. to have a presidential candidate who is a bandit and a gangster . . . so long as he is a (canonical) Orthodox Christian?

During the debate between Yuschenko and Yanukovych, Yuschenko turned to the gentleman on the subject of religion and told him that since he says he is a believer, then he should know what the Decalogue states about stealing.

And yet, Yuschenko continued, it is known that you took more than $350 million from the people etc.

The UOC-MP and ROC should really be careful which candidate they support here.

You know what they say about associating with bandits . . .

Sorry, Hal, I didn't mean to steal your thunder here . . . wink

There was an article up here by a fellow trying to write about the history of Eastern Catholics since the Union of Brest.

He seems to think that Ukrainian Catholics began with the Council of Florence, for starters . . .

The article really goes down hill from there.

Western journalists like to make simplistic divides, such as the Catholic-Orthodox divide they impose on the presidential campaign north of the Black Sea.

It would be great to have so many Ukie Catholics there, but there simply aren't!

Ah well, we'll see what happens after Sunday.

Alex

Alex
Posted By: Diak Re: Ukraine - 12/23/04 06:07 PM
The MP seems to have forgotten that its own Metropolitan Vladimir (Sabodan) blessed Yushchenko (I posted the reference to the RISU article earlier in the thread). I don't recall he was sanctioned (although certainly private words may have been exchanged with Moscow).

Some UOC-MP clergy have supported Yushchenko, as I also referred to earlier. Some of these have been quite vocal in their support.

If the MP continues to pursue this line of public polemic, they will continue to lose credibility, clergy, and faithful. You can't fool all of the people all of the time.

We had Sunday Divine Liturgy two weeks ago with special intentions in the Litanies for Ukraine, and will have a Moleben for peace and justice in the elections on the 26th.

&#1056;&#1072;&#1079;&#1086;&#1084; &#1085;&#1072;&#1089; &#1073;&#1072;&#1075;&#1072;&#1090;&#1086;!!!
Posted By: Halychanyn Re: Ukraine - 12/23/04 06:32 PM
Dear Alex, Diak, et al:

In short, the MP's behavior is so much like Putin's it's scary.

Yours,

hal
Posted By: Antrodox Re: Ukraine - 12/26/04 10:00 PM
Not all the official polls are in.....but democracy is winning.
smile wink
Posted By: Our Lady's slave Re: Ukraine - 12/26/04 10:12 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Antrodox:
Not all the official polls are in.....but democracy is winning.
smile wink
I may be pessimistic - but a phrase about chickens being counted come to mind here

Anhelyna
Posted By: Diak Re: Ukraine - 12/27/04 01:43 AM
Yuschenko has declared victory, looks like about 39% Yanokovych to 60% Yushchenko.

I'm sure the legal battles are not over, but the observers seem much more satisfied with this round, and the nearly double results for Yushchenko certainly give him the "mandate".

&#1056;&#1072;&#1079;&#1086;&#1084; &#1085;&#1072;&#1089; &#1073;&#1072;&#1075;&#1072;&#1090;&#1086;!!!
Posted By: incognitus Re: Ukraine - 12/27/04 08:33 AM
Well, the chickens have hatched; all but 5 % of the votes are counted, and the Electoral Commission has certified that Yushchenko is the winner - so we can mix the champagne with the orange juice and celebrate!

I think that the inauguration is scheduled for 2 January - this coming Sunday.

The next battle is to get Ukraine into the European Union.

Incognitus
Posted By: Irish Melkite Re: Ukraine - 12/27/04 01:09 PM
Prayers of gratitude for Ukraine's safe passsage through this perilous and meaningful moment in its history.
Posted By: Roman Re: Ukraine - 12/28/04 03:05 AM
Quote
Originally posted by LaFamiliaFelix:
First, she said that Ukraine gets electricity and other basic utilities from Russia, so friends there are necessary. Are either of these reasons facts?
There's a pretty good piece on energy relat...aine in today\'s Int\'l. Herald Tribune.
Posted By: Penthaetria Re: Ukraine - 12/28/04 03:31 AM
Posted By: Penthaetria Re: Ukraine - 12/28/04 03:34 AM
Whoops. That avatar was way tooo big. I'm going to have to figure out how to reduce its size. (Any suggestions out there?)

And I've even lost track of what I was going to post here in the first place.

Sorry for the interruption.
Posted By: Hesychios Re: Ukraine - 12/28/04 04:53 AM
THANKS!

I needed a good laugh smile
Posted By: byzanTN Re: Ukraine - 12/28/04 05:06 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Pentha Tria:
Whoops. That avatar was way tooo big. I'm going to have to figure out how to reduce its size. (Any suggestions out there?)

And I've even lost track of what I was going to post here in the first place.

Sorry for the interruption.
ROFL biggrin I thought only us old folks did stuff like that. LOL.
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Ukraine - 12/28/04 02:50 PM
Dear Friends,

Well, it's not over until the big avatar sings . . .

Yanukovych is refusing to concede and it looks like the Supreme Court will again be called upon to formally declare who is the winner and the (sore) loser.

Perhaps the new administration under President Yuschenko can declare a law that prevents people with criminal records, like Yanukovych, from ever seeking presidential office in future?

And perhaps the Russian Orthodox Church and its satellite, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, Moscow Patriarchate can learn a final lesson about being so subservient to the state and Russian chauvinist nationalism - and stop approving criminals like Yanukovych only because his is a pro-Russian imperialist platform?

The Russian Orthodox Church in Ukraine (aka the UOC-MP) has really put its foot in it this time.

"Canonical Orthodoxy?" It can keep its canonicity. And its blind caesaro-papist following of the almighty state.

My own view is that, in future, Ukrainians should try and stay as far away from such "Orthodoxy" as possible.

Alex
Posted By: lpreima Re: Ukraine - 12/28/04 04:03 PM
I believe that in the next couple of months we will be observing a kind of metamorphosis in Ukrainian Orthodoxy. We really do not need to have a crystal ball to say what will happen to the UOC-MP in the near future. They were already losing ground, although in a slow pace since the day of independence of Ukraine. True Ukrainian Orthodoxy must now unite. This is the will of the people, this will has been seen, heard and now must be done. I also believe that in 2005 we will see much comotion in reference to the Ukie Greek Catholic Patriarchate issue and maybe its recognition. It would be interesting to see the recognition done firstly by the Ukrainian government and being so the Vatican would just have to recognize it, like it or not. That would be really cool. What do you guys say?
Lauro
Posted By: Hesychios Re: Ukraine - 12/28/04 05:40 PM
I certainly don't know enough about this situation to make any strong predictions, but I have a hunch or two and maybe a comment.

I think there will always be a core group of UOC-MP in Ukraine because of the large number of ethnic Russians in the country, if the Moskva-Ukrainians begin to assimilate into Ukrainian culture that could change things, but I doubt it due to the proximity of Russia; and the accessibility of Russian media will work against that.

I also believe that there will be a conglomeration of the Orthodox churches in Ukraine, although how soon I couldn't say. It could quickly become very large if it continues to draw some congregations and priests from the UOC-MP. This will be the body whose Metroplitan receives recognition as a Patriarchate from the government, and later across the globe.

If the UGCC does not participate in some way with this newly reconstituted Ukrainian church it will be marginalized. I suppose that it is not likely that the government would start regarding the Ukrainian Catholic Metropolitan as a Patriarch as well. If it falls out in that way the moment would be lost.

If the UGCC metropolitan ever does acquire recognition from Rome as a Patriarch but only after the other theoretical Patriarchate acquires some international and inter-Patriarchal recognition he will look like an also-ran and not have as much credibility.

Any way, that's how I see it today.

Michael
Posted By: Wilhelm Re: Ukraine - 12/28/04 07:28 PM
The vatican should recognise the Slavic Byzantine Patriach and stop being so inert.
The Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church should stop being a minority by own choice.Everyone that is in power is looking for minorities to kick around.
Sory to say. I got the impression that the Popes Mum religion was on the backfoot of a Polish/priest/bishop/pope.
A "Slavic Byzantine Patriarch" would give a uplift to all the people of the east not only the Ukrainians. It would give Yushenko a status that is missing.
This time the Holy Father could honor the memory of his mother. Not doing so wil let him die with the biggest blunder of his life.
SEND YELLOW RIBBONS TO THE VATICAN. The People have spoken!!!
Please get out of that minority status you all so love. I know you miss the many reasons to cry. So what. Uplift yourself, it is in your own hands.

Wilhelm.
Posted By: Wilhelm Re: Ukraine - 12/28/04 07:31 PM
Sory

Send ORANGE ribbons to the vatican.

Will
Posted By: Our Lady's slave Re: Ukraine - 12/28/04 08:26 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
Dear Friends,

Well, it's not over until the big avatar sings . . .

Yanukovych is refusing to concede and it looks like the Supreme Court will again be called upon to formally declare who is the winner and the (sore) loser.

Perhaps the new administration under President Yuschenko can declare a law that prevents people with criminal records, like Yanukovych, from ever seeking presidential office in future?

And perhaps the Russian Orthodox Church and its satellite, the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, Moscow Patriarchate can learn a final lesson about being so subservient to the state and Russian chauvinist nationalism - and stop approving criminals like Yanukovych only because his is a pro-Russian imperialist platform?

The Russian Orthodox Church in Ukraine (aka the UOC-MP) has really put its foot in it this time.

"Canonical Orthodoxy?" It can keep its canonicity. And its blind caesaro-papist following of the almighty state.

My own view is that, in future, Ukrainians should try and stay as far away from such "Orthodoxy" as possible.

Alex
Indeed Alex - and please forgive my tardy reply to your post

You said
Quote
Yanukovych is refusing to concede and it looks like the Supreme Court will again be called upon to formally declare who is the winner and the (sore) loser.
here we go again - the result is close - but it's not the way that Yanukovych wanted it - the people have chosen Yuschenko - but 'our hero' :sarcasm: coming from the Russian leaning areas of Ukraine as he does feels that conceding is showing weakness - so he's not going to give in. He's even shouting fraud , irregularities etc etc. Funny - he was willing to accept flawed results before.

You also said
Quote
Perhaps the new administration under President Yuschenko can declare a law that prevents people with criminal records, like Yanukovych, from ever seeking presidential office in future?
Yeah - well 'twould be rather nice shocked but I think we have a snag here - all the papers that were about Yanukovych have errrrr vanished - those that went to Russia are now no longer in existence - so they can't be produced - and after all his record was expunged . No record - well can't really say that he has a criminal record can we ?

And as befits a non Ukie RC [ oops sorry - I meant latin biggrin ] I'm staying out of any argument over UGCC and ROC-MP and UOC-KP - I don't know enough

Anhelyna
Posted By: Antrodox Re: Ukraine - 12/28/04 11:22 PM
A brief aside
__________________

Coalesco wrote: "I think there will always be a core group of UOC-MP in Ukraine because of the large number of ethnic Russians in the country..."

These Ukrainian allophones made up some 20% of the population of Ukraine about a dozen years ago. There are now about 17.4% of such Ukrainian citizens left in Ukraine today.

The reasons for this dropping trend are complex--I personally suspect that many moved out of the country, with their Ukrainian husbands, to California.

Anthrodox
Posted By: Tammy Re: Ukraine - 12/29/04 12:15 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Antrodox:
These Ukrainian allophones made up some 20% of the population of Ukraine about a dozen years ago. There are now about 17.4% of such Ukrainian citizens left in Ukraine today.

The reasons for this dropping trend are complex--I personally suspect that many moved out of the country, with their Ukrainian husbands, to California.

Anthrodox
Or Canada! wink

Tammy
Posted By: Antrodox Re: Ukraine - 12/31/04 06:51 PM
smile smile smile smile smile smile smile smile

Yanukovich has resigned as Prime Minister of Ukraine.
Posted By: Diak Re: Ukraine - 12/31/04 07:22 PM
According to CNN, it is official: http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/12/31/ukraine.vote.ap/

I had some horilka last night to celebrate Yushchenko's victory. I guess I'll just have to have some more tonight. smile biggrin

&#1056;&#1072;&#1079;&#1086;&#1084; &#1085;&#1072;&#1089; &#1073;&#1072;&#1075;&#1072;&#1090;&#1086;!!!
Posted By: Our Lady's slave Re: Ukraine - 12/31/04 07:36 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Diak:
According to CNN, it is official: http://edition.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/12/31/ukraine.vote.ap/

I had some horilka last night to celebrate Yushchenko's victory. I guess I'll just have to have some more tonight. smile biggrin

&#1056;&#1072;&#1079;&#1086;&#1084; &#1085;&#1072;&#1089; &#1073;&#1072;&#1075;&#1072;&#1090;&#1086;!!!
Great night to celebrate Diak - and I missed the announcement - I was in the kitchen and missed it.

This is really the dawn of a new era for Ukraine

Anhelyna
Posted By: Jean Francois Re: Ukraine - 01/01/05 01:31 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Orthodox Catholic:
Dear Incognitus,

A number of friends of mine here have gone, including Hritzko's brother whom I know.

Alex
Actually, both of his brothers whent. Which one to you know ?

I.F.
Posted By: Jean Francois Re: Ukraine - 01/01/05 01:37 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Halychanyn:
Dear Alex, Diak, et al:

In short, the MP's behavior is so much like Putin's it's scary.

Yours,

hal
No, it's not 'scary'. It's because they are both former KGB operative. Seems you can't teach old doggies new tricks

I.F.
Posted By: Jean Francois Re: Ukraine - 01/01/05 01:44 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Roman:
Quote
Originally posted by LaFamiliaFelix:
[b] First, she said that Ukraine gets electricity and other basic utilities from Russia, so friends there are necessary. Are either of these reasons facts?
There's a pretty good piece on energy relat...aine in today\'s Int\'l. Herald Tribune. [/b]
Based on yesterday's (AOL or Yahoo wire services) reports, it's better to have friends in Turkmenestan. They seem to be the real players in the gas business. Having friends in Russia is not as good as having friends in Turkmenestan (or Washington since it supports this ex-Soviet Rupublic wink ).

I.F.
Posted By: Jean Francois Re: Ukraine - 01/01/05 01:47 AM
Quote
Originally posted by incognitus:
Well, the chickens have hatched; all but 5 % of the votes are counted, and the Electoral Commission has certified that Yushchenko is the winner - so we can mix the champagne with the orange juice and celebrate!

I think that the inauguration is scheduled for 2 January - this coming Sunday.

The next battle is to get Ukraine into the European Union.

Incognitus
January 10 and 14 have been suggested as inauguration dates.

The next battle is to get Ukraine fully into NATO, so that eventual European integration will be guaranteed. This should be easy since the vast majority of Ukrainian officers want this to happen. it will happen within 5 years or less.

I.F.
Posted By: Jean Francois Re: Ukraine - 01/01/05 01:58 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Antrodox:
A brief aside
__________________

Coalesco wrote: "I think there will always be a core group of UOC-MP in Ukraine because of the [b]large number of ethnic Russians
in the country..."

These Ukrainian allophones made up some 20% of the population of Ukraine about a dozen years ago. There are now about 17.4% of such Ukrainian citizens left in Ukraine today.

[/b]
The citizens of Eastern Ukraine are very much living in a pseudo-Soviet environment. In other words, the people pray in the church their government tells them is good for them. Further the vast majority of ethnic Russians are non-religious / atheists. Through no fault of their own, they have been dechurches generations ago. A good Ukrainian Patriarch who can reach out to them and provide them with the spiritual guidance they need will convert them and/or win them over.

I.F.
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Ukraine - 01/04/05 02:31 PM
Dear Jean Francois,

I know Greg (Hritzko).

I was introduced to him here through the Administrator's good Byzantine Forum!

Alex
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Ukraine - 01/04/05 04:07 PM
Dear Friends,

Perhaps we can leave off this topic for a while now and/or begin a new thread on something related later on?

Everything seems to have worked out over there for the good.

Alex
Posted By: Antrodox Re: Ukraine - 01/24/05 05:35 PM
Victor Yuschenko has been declared the President of Ukraine. He has appointed Yulia Timoshenko as its premier; he's met with Vladimir Putin, and with the Moscow Patriarch Alexis II.

The Russian Patriarch expressed the hope (the translation is mine) that Ukraine will flower into a united country, and that relations between countries of the slavic tradition will become activated.


Source: http://www.yuschenko.com.ua/ukr/present/News/2187/
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Ukraine - 01/24/05 07:33 PM
Dear Antrodox,

I can just see the meeting now . . .

Putin: Won't you have some borscht and pirozhki, Comrade President?

Yuschenko: Thank you for your kindness, Pane Presidente, but I had a very big meal . . .

Putin: When?

Yuschenko: Yesterday morning . . .

Putin: You are sure now . . . my people went to very great lengths to prepare this JUST for you . . .

Yuschenko: Yes, I suspected they had . . .

Putin: And what does that mean?

Yuschenko: That I have already inveighed on your kind hospitality too much . . .

Putin: Then take one of these cookies for the road . . .

Yuschenko: You first, Pane Presidente!

Putin: Oh, that's all right, I too have had a very big meal . . . as President, you should learn not to turn down your hosts' hospitality - when you do, you lose face!

Yuschenko: My face is exactly what I'm considering, Pane Presidente . . .

Alex
Posted By: Halychanyn Re: Ukraine - 01/24/05 07:43 PM
biggrin biggrin biggrin
Posted By: Orthodox Catholic Re: Ukraine - 01/24/05 07:54 PM
Dear Hal,

Did you see the inauguration on TV?

I've never seen a more moving event!

It was MORE than an inauguration of a president.

It was a declaration of Ukrainian independence, a repeat of 22 Sichnya!

Alex
Posted By: Halychanyn Re: Ukraine - 01/24/05 09:22 PM
Dear Alex:

I did indeed. 4am Central Time over the streaming video feed from Ukrainian Channel 5.

I was plenty emotional in 1991 when in saw the tape of "Bozhe Vekykyj Yedynij" being sung in the Ukrainian Parilament for the first time during Kravchuk's swearing-in.

No question that yesterday topped it!

Yours,

hal
Posted By: incognitus Re: Ukraine - 01/24/05 10:50 PM
The inauguration was certainly moving and joyful. Now the new President (of Ukraine, that is) needs our prayers that he may accomplish the Herculean tasks which lie before him.

Incognitus
Posted By: Jean Francois Re: Ukraine - 01/25/05 02:14 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Antrodox:
Victor Yuschenko has been declared the President of Ukraine. He has appointed Yulia Timoshenko as its premier; he's met with Vladimir Putin, and with the Moscow Patriarch Alexis II.

The Russian Patriarch expressed the hope (the translation is mine) that Ukraine will flower into a united country, and that relations between [b]countries of the slavic tradition
will become activated.


Source: http://www.yuschenko.com.ua/ukr/present/News/2187/ [/b]
Here is another perspective concerning the Russian patriarch:

http://www.day.kiev.ua/130700/


I.F.
Posted By: Irish Melkite Re: Ukraine - 01/25/05 01:00 PM
Jean Francois,

Thanks for the link. Interesting article and, as an aside, the quality of the writing was superb smile .

Many years,

Neil, who isn't usually all that impressed by what journalists do with and to language
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