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Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community

Posted By: Our Lady's slave

Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community - 01/09/08 07:42 PM

ATHENS (Reuters) - About a dozen Greek women violated a 1,000-year ban on the male-only monastic community of Mount Athos on Tuesday during a protest over disputed land, one of the demonstrators said on Wednesday..........

Read the remainder of the article here

The Holy Mountain is invaded
Posted By: bergschlawiner

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community - 01/09/08 07:54 PM

There have been other females who trespassed, one was French reporter who wrote about it. The screening process to enter was pretty crude, having entrants line up and urinate to prove they were males. This woman used something like people use to fake drug tests to fake urinating as a male.
Posted By: Etnick

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community - 01/09/08 07:59 PM

Originally Posted by bergschlawiner
There have been other females who trespassed, one was French reporter who wrote about it. The screening process to enter was pretty crude, having entrants line up and urinate to prove they were males. This woman used something like people use to fake drug tests to fake urinating as a male.


eek sick!!!!

Posted By: MrsMW

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community - 01/09/08 08:29 PM

As a woman I am very offended that these women have done this. Feminist women can't take the fact that they are not allowed there or any other place for that matter. When I visit my monk friends I don't go into the cloister. You don't see me mad about it. I am confident as a woman so I don't feel the need to go to monastery that doesn't want me there! This is about the Church not ordaining women I am sure of it. Feminist women think the Church looks at them as second class or something stupid like that. Grow up!
Posted By: Terry Bohannon

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community - 01/09/08 08:36 PM

They perceive a glass ceiling, but it's not sex discrimination. The injustice they claim which has been imposed on women for 1,000 years compleatly ridiclious. They have no natural right to join in with monks, they have no right to live with the monks, and they cannot unsex themselves.

Next feminists will be streaking at the Vatican.

Terry
Posted By: MrsMW

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community - 01/09/08 08:47 PM

They may have already done it! crazy
Posted By: Stephanos I

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community - 01/09/08 08:53 PM

Good heavens what is the world comming to?
Stephanos I
Posted By: Amadeus

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community - 01/09/08 08:58 PM

Originally Posted by Stephanos I
Good heavens what is the world comming to?
Stephanos I


Fr.:

Upside down!?

Amado
Posted By: domilsean

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community - 01/09/08 09:12 PM

If you read the story, you'd see the women stepped over the boundary fence to symbolically enter Mount Athos and break the ban. Their purpose was not to challenge the ban on women but to draw attention to their claims on lands on the Halkidiki peninsula. The women say the land is owned by local villages, the monks say they own the land. It's a land dispute. I never got the impression that the women wanted to really enter Athos.
Posted By: Fr Serge Keleher

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community - 01/09/08 09:15 PM

It has become immoral to be moral. Do these harpies seriously think that anyone at all is entitled to go anywhere at all? Is locking one's door at night somehow offensive? Has no one a right to privacy?

The monks are doing no one any conceivable harm. Neither are, e.g., the nuns at Kalymata - but I've heard nothing of men staging any sort of demonstration "protesting" their exclusion from the cloister of monasteries of women.

If some villages have a serious claim on bits of land now regarded as part of the Holy Mountain, Greece has courts which are competent to adjudicate such a dispute. I somehow suspect that the villagers would not be pleased if, say, 600 monks began staging demonstrations inside the private homes of the villagers at 3 AM on days randomly chosen by the monks (without, of course, even informing the villagers).

Fr. Serge
Posted By: Dr John

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community - 01/10/08 06:26 AM

It's a Greek thing. Unlike Native Americans who could not understand the concept of "land/earth" belonging to one or another person/family, for Greeks the land is the co-creator of the family. The earth that feeds you also holds the remains of the ancestors (it also has 'value' in terms of money).

If boundary land was at one time the patrimony of a village or a family, it doesn't matter if the monks 'got it' - it belongs to the village or the family.

Interestingly enough, in Greek law, the land is held by the family; if a woman marries, the pieces of the land that would be hers as an inheritance do NOT pass to her husband upon her death, but rather are given to her children. This avoids the 'marriage for gain' thing.

As for Athos, while the historical perspective is that the monastic area has been consecrated to monastic usage - sort of like a 'gated community', the idea that a woman's footfall or presence somehow 'desecrates' the land seems rather adolescent - sort of like the 6 year-old's "don't let the peas touch the mashed potatoes".

If a monk's consecration to celibacy and to chastity is so threatened by the mere physical presence of a female Greek Christian, there are some serious issues that need to be dealt with. This is not really Christian virtue, it's paranoia.

St. Benedict is going to pull a 0.38 on St. Scholastica (his sister) if she shows up on the monastery door step? St. Clare gets it between the eyes if she shows up at the Assisi garden of Francis' friary? St. Helen, discoverer of the True Cross and mother of St. Constantine, gets stoned by the monks of St. Catherine's monastery if she wanders into the neighborhood on Sinai?

Give me a break! "Male and female He created them" - we're all part of God's creation and the Lord Jesus made it real clear - "love one another". Trying to avoid temptation is fine, but it's an interior and spiritual struggle and a dedication to working for the kingdom unrestricted by a marriage bond, that is the essence of a religious/monastic vocation, and problems should be resolved with prayer. If one is so totally blown away by the presence of the opposite gender, then perhaps one's vocation lies elsewhere.

I am reminded of a nun colleague of mine whose 'congregational virtue', mandated by the Mother Foundress, required the sisters to never eat in the presence of 'externs'. So at her father's funeral, when dinner had been prepared, she had to take her meal into a closed kitchen to eat alone while the rest of the family ate in the dining room. Is there some virtue here? Or is it just a psychological quirk of the foundress that got 'sanctified' into the Holy Rule? Is the absolute exclusion of women or men from the area around a religious house a virtue in itself? (I'm not talking about 'externs' wandering about inside a cloister.) Or is it just a quirk that has become 'sanctified'?

My condo complex has a huge number of Moslem residents. We had a fire in the South building and the Resident Management and the firefighters were appalled by the number of Moslem women who did not evacuate because there were no male family members present to accompany them in the evacuation. (Saudi Arabs). Is it more 'holy' to get burned to death in a fire or die of smoke-inhalation than to leave your unit unaccompanied? When the building is on fire, the alarm bells are raging and there's smoke through all the hallways, if some imam or religious policeman thinks that some male is looking at some portly, veiled, senior citizen lady 'with lust', then they're nuts. Rational people want OUT!

(I won't even mention the Indonesian girls who were forced back into a burning school by the religious police because they didn't have their headscarves on, and who ultimately died in the flames.)

Christians are supposed to be characterized by love and a willingness to sacrifice one's own life for the sake of one's neighbor. St. Paul spoke of the "wonder of the freedom of the Children of God" who are freed from 'laws' in order to do whatever is best for one's neighbor - a scary proposition for traditional Jews of His time. The love that the Father shows for us by keeping us alive and living is the model that we must show for our neighbors -- Christ said so.

Again the Scripture: "Behold these Christians, see how they love one another!"

And if we do anything less, whether to men or women, to old or young, to the sick or the hale and hearty, to fellow Christians or to those who would persecute us, we dishonor the Christ who willingly bore the humiliation and pain of His condemnation and heinous death upon the Cross. To tell a man/woman the he/she is violating God's law by their mere presence near me 'on my land' isn't 'holiness', it's arrogance. Normal - real Greeks - would do the traditional offering of a glass of fresh, cold water and a spoonful of fruit preserves as a sign of Christian Orthodox welcome.

We can do no less than what the Lord commands if we still try to claim the name: Christ-ian.

Blessings and forebearance! And get out there and scare the living daylights out of 'them' by how kind and loving we can be.

Dr John -
still worried about "the awesome Judgement Seat of Christ"
Posted By: Slavipodvizhnik

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community - 01/11/08 06:39 AM

The Holy Mountain is the Garden of the Mother of God, and She is the only woman to have access to it for 1000 years. The very soil is dedicated to her, and there isn't so much as a female cat or even a chicken on the mountain.

Very few things can get me to the point where I can become uncharitable, but those who can refer to the Holy Monks of Athos as "paranoid" can easily push my buttons to do so.

So Dr John, "Give me a break". Learn something about the Holy Mountain of the Theotokos before rushing to diagnose paranoia on the part of the monks, lest others rush with a retort diagnosis of ignorance on your behalf.

Alexandr
Posted By: Marian

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community - 01/14/08 07:34 PM

Is shameful and disobedient what did those women. Disobedience is the key for hell.

Quote
The Holy Mountain is the Garden of the Mother of God, and She is the only woman to have access to it for 1000 years.


Panagia Theotoke, soson imas!
Posted By: Dandelion

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community - 02/08/08 04:43 AM

Quote;
(She is the only woman to have access to it for 1000 years. The very soil is dedicated to her, and there isn't so much as a female cat or even a chicken on the mountain.) What's up with this?
I guess all females with the exception of the Blessed Mother have the koodies? eek
crazy
(Is shameful and disobedient what did those women. Disobedience is the key for hell).?
ahhh. Lighten up. The article seems to point to the women wanting the land back, and could care less about the monks who live there.
I also think its hilarious
laugh

Deanna
Posted By: Slavipodvizhnik

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community - 02/08/08 05:05 AM

I'm glad that you find this hilarious. Some of us do not. Women are not permitted on the Holy Mountain for the very same reason that they are not permitted in the Altar. Just another example of the ignorant and malicious attempting to defile one of the last holy places on earth.

And please don't tell us to lighten up. How about showing some respect for that which is dedicated to the Mother of God?

Alexandr
Posted By: Dandelion

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community - 02/08/08 05:26 AM

Quote;
Just another example of the ignorant and malicious attempting to defile one of the last holy places on earth.
Do you mean to tell me that a "woman" defiles the land if she should step foot on that Mountain? why? define why it is considered a defilement?
And please don't tell us to lighten up. How about showing some respect for that which is dedicated to the Mother of God?
I would think that the Mother of God frown would want the same respect shone to all of her children regardless of their sex.

God Bless,
smile
Deanna

Posted By: Terry Bohannon

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community - 02/08/08 05:50 AM

It is a defilement because it is a holy place reserved for Orthodox men who are a part of the community.

I would be as offended if some men bombarded a convent of cloistered nuns. One's sex is not the issue here.

It is a sacrilege.

Terry
Posted By: Fr Serge Keleher

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community - 02/08/08 06:50 AM

First of all, to clear away a myth, there are both female cats and hens to be found on the Holy Mountain. Cats are well known for going where they please (has anyone ever tried to herd cats?), and the hens provide the eggs for the tempera with which the monks paint icons.

There are also, of course, female plants.

But neither the felines, nor the plants, nor the hens, are considered to violate the cloister.

Women who would like an Athonite experience of monasticism can obtain that experience in Orthodox monasteries for women (where, surprise, surprise, men are strictly barred from certain parts of the premises). Does anyone plan to organize a protest demonstration of men demanding admission to all the premises of women's monasteries?

"Defilement" is a red herring. Women can and do enter the Life-Giving Tomb of the Lord in Jerusalem to pray, and no one believes that such devout women have defiled the Tomb.

There is a regrettable impulse to want to go almost anywhere if I am not welcome to go there. The notion that perhaps I have no business to poke my nose in seems a personal affront. But there is no need to pander to such foolishness. This is esepcially true in matters of religion. The Bahai's (sorry; that's my best guess at the plural) maintain a magnificent garden near Haifa, which I once visited. But since I am not a Bahai, I was not permitted inside the actual sanctuary. I have managed to survive. Likewise, non-Mormons are not permitted inside Mormon temples. That is no reason for non-Mormons to arm themselves, march on the nearest Mormon temple, and smash the doors in.

A little sanity, please!

Fr. Serge
Posted By: Our Lady's slave

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community - 02/08/08 08:09 AM

Originally Posted by Dandelion
Quote;
Just another example of the ignorant and malicious attempting to defile one of the last holy places on earth.
Do you mean to tell me that a "woman" defiles the land if she should step foot on that Mountain? why? define why it is considered a defilement?
And please don't tell us to lighten up. How about showing some respect for that which is dedicated to the Mother of God?
I would think that the Mother of God frown would want the same respect shone to all of her children regardless of their sex.

God Bless,
smile
Deanna




How about just showing respect for traditions
Posted By: harmon3110

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community - 02/08/08 09:18 AM

Originally Posted by Dandelion
Quote;
Just another example of the ignorant and malicious attempting to defile one of the last holy places on earth.
Do you mean to tell me that a "woman" defiles the land if she should step foot on that Mountain? why? define why it is considered a defilement?
And please don't tell us to lighten up. How about showing some respect for that which is dedicated to the Mother of God?
I would think that the Mother of God frown would want the same respect shone to all of her children regardless of their sex.

God Bless,
smile
Deanna



Your remarks completely miss the point.

Women are not bad, and they are not kept from men's monasteries (including Mt. Athos) because they are bad.

Women are kept from men's monasteries (including Mt. Athos) because men respond strongly to the presence of women, especially sexually. The men at the monastery are supposed to be trying to overcome worldly states of consciousness, especially the sexual drive. Therefore, women are banned from men's monasteries so that the men won't be sexually aroused or otherwise distracted from their spiritual labors.

The women entering into Mt. Athos are therefore demonstrating their own pathetic egoism and ignorance instead of showing respect for the men who are trying to live a more spiritual life and for a great spiritual institution. If those women want to go to a monastic environment, they can go to plenty of women's monasteries (where the men are banned). But I suspect this isn't about seeking after spirituality; this is just about ego.

in disgust,

-- John
Posted By: Dandelion

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community - 02/08/08 01:52 PM

to all,
I agree that women shouldn't drop in "men's" monasteries and respect their privacy,
however the issue at hand is still about the land.
quote;
Women are kept from men's monasteries (including Mt. Athos) because men respond strongly to the presence of women, especially sexually. The men at the monastery are supposed to be trying to overcome worldly states of consciousness, especially the sexual drive.

and where did this theory/tradition come from?
( what kind of and where did this form of thought originate from and why?)

The Blessed Mother & St. Joseph had an earthly marriage.

also if the mountain is dedicated to the Blessed Mother and no women are allowed
could that be considered putting a material object 1st. before a female human being?

God Bless smile

Deanna

Posted By: Dandelion

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community - 02/08/08 02:32 PM

www.youtube.com/watch?v=_fWjYckTTUo

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gb0Gak88lDA
Posted By: Marian

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community - 02/08/08 02:34 PM

Quote
Hoqw about just showing respect for traditions


So true the word of our Sister Anhelyna.

First of all it is about respect for the spiritual choice of many souls.

Dandelion, a house, a den. A person must not break the door and enter non invited. Respect.

Respect for the Holy Tradition. You know about Orthodoxy?

But there are many more arguments et al. My brethren who perfectly can write in English surely can add more.

Marian+
Posted By: Marian

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community - 02/08/08 02:39 PM



confused
Posted By: Dandelion

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community - 02/08/08 02:51 PM

Like the MR Mister song?

I agree about women not invading mens privacy in all male monasteries
and the same the respect given for the women' monasteries.

The fact still remains about the land.

Deanna smile
Posted By: Marian

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community - 02/08/08 04:08 PM

Ms. Deanna,

If there is and it remains any fact about the land, then there are law, lawyers, justice and judges.

God bless your quests. Amin.

smile

Marian+
Posted By: Thepeug

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community - 02/08/08 10:53 PM

On an historical note, haven't there been a few (pastoral) exceptions to the ban? I've heard, for instance, that female refugees were allowed on the Holy Mount during the Greek Civil War, and again during WWII, when Jewish men and women were given shelter. Can anyone clarify?

Posted By: EdHash

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community - 02/08/08 11:04 PM

If it really was about real estate and people's desire to develop on the disputed land, then why did ONLY women climb the fence? And don't they have a legal system to dispute property ownership? How long was the fence up? Why climb it now after all these years? Rules during war, life or death situations is a different issue.

I've noticed over the years that it is always OK to push the envelope when it comes to sports interviews in mens locker rooms, but NOT womens; OK to enter illegally property or building inhabited by men only (it's about rights and equality), but not property for women only (that would be considered sexually provocative). Land dispute is one thing; only women climbing over a fence to challenge the Athonite 1,000 tradition is another. These are two issues, whereby one is taking expense at the other.

Ed
Posted By: Halia12

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community - 02/09/08 03:53 AM

Quote
Do you mean to tell me that a "woman" defiles the land if she should step foot on that Mountain? why? define why it is considered a defilement?
And please don't tell us to lighten up. How about showing some respect for that which is dedicated to the Mother of God?
I would think that the Mother of God would want the same respect shone to all of her children regardless of their sex.


Those are very good points. Mt. Athos may be dedicated to the Mother of God as are many churches around the world, but that does not mean that women are in some way "unclean" and men are "clean" or that the Mother of God is jealous of women as a group. We should be stressing that the Mother of God loves both males and females equally.
A stipulation of male only admission to Mt. Athos can surely be made without demaning or insulting women.
Posted By: EdHash

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community - 02/09/08 04:18 AM

Originally Posted by Halia12
A stipulation of male only admission to Mt. Athos can surely be made without demaning or insulting women.


Women should also respect a monastic community that is all male. The demeaning and insulting seems to be coming from only one direction.
Ed
Posted By: Dandelion

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community - 02/09/08 01:55 PM

Can anyone be sure that the monks didn't pray for the women to jump the fence, and to come up there for a visit? smile

maybe the women were answering someone's prayer up there on the mt.
Deanna
Posted By: Father Anthony

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community - 02/09/08 02:14 PM

Originally Posted by Dandelion
Can anyone be sure that the monks didn't pray for the women to jump the fence, and to come up there for a visit? smile

maybe the women were answering someone's prayer up there on the mt.
Deanna

I find the above comment to be insulting and demeaning to those that are in the consecrated life. To suggest that there are those are praying to enter into sin, and that God would grant favor to such is absolutely mind-boggling. The above comment definitely shows an ignorance and lack of respect to the life of the church and faith.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Posted By: Dandelion

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community - 02/09/08 02:20 PM

What do you mean by entering into sin? from a visit?

What is more sinful? those who have a sinful act in their mind about something
that intended innocently? or the act itself?

and if God didn't want it to happen, it wouldn't!
Deanna

quote; (The above comment definitely shows an ignorance and lack of respect to the life of the church and faith.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+ )
Posted By: Father Anthony

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community - 02/09/08 02:25 PM

Maybe before offering your flippant and of the cuff remarks, you should learn that sin comes in a variety of ways. Temptation is just as much a sin as committing the sin in itself.

I find your post on this thread to show a definite ignorance in regards to the traditions and faith that are revered by many, and that your flippant remarks to be offensive and distasteful. Maybe before offering such remarks you should research and find out why such a way of life is carried out instead of demeaning and ridiculing it.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Posted By: Alice

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community - 02/09/08 02:26 PM

Dear Deanna,

With all due respect, I think that you are pushing this a little too much.

I am a woman, and I am not an 'old fuddy duddy' either, and I have and always had utmost respect and understanding for this prohibition...just as I understand why I need to cover my hair with a headscarf and cover up from head to toe when visiting an all male monastery which allow visitors outside of Mt. Athos...

Please try to be more respectful and sensitive, and less 'politically correct' in this matter.

Thank you,
Alice, Moderator
Posted By: EdHash

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community - 02/09/08 02:27 PM

Father Anthony,

To use a popular phrase feminists have tauted, "They just don't get it". Aside from not giving *respect* (another popular word used ad nauseum over the years by disgruntled women against men) for the Athonite tradition of this all-male monastic community, there is the law. That they would rather pubically protest as they did rather than challenge the monastics with their claim in the Greek legal system reflects who they really are.

I find Deanna's comments insulting.

I am for fair and equal treatment for all people, men and women. I am not in favor of such protests outside the legal system. I did not read anywhere that the Greek legal system refuses to hear their case. I just read that there is undeveloped land.

The monks of Athos gain my respect, not the sisterhood of illegal protests and the need to push the envelope. Can you imagine what the Muslims would do to women if they did such a thing?

Ed
Posted By: Dandelion

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community - 02/09/08 02:28 PM

do you mean to tell me that if a woman is in the presence of a monk, the temptation between a man & woman are considered sinful?

in what ways?

Thank You for your comments and labeling my IQ
and God Bless You smile

again I repeat that I do respect their way of life, but why is the answer is always one way....since the begining of time

Deanna
Posted By: Alice

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community - 02/09/08 02:31 PM

All, as far as 'undeveloped land' in Greece, this is an all together different topic, and one which is far too complicated to address here...many wildfires which have destroyed homes, forests, the ecosystem (do you know how hard it is to grow a forest in the arid climate of Greece?) and livelihoods in Greece, are started by arsonists hoping to develop on the land they have burned...
these ladies, besides being blatantly disrespectful, are also hoping to be opportunists.

Alice

P.S. to Deanna:

Quote
again I repeat that I do respect their way of life, but why is the answer is always one way....since the begining of time


Because that is the way God made us! He made us differently, "from the beginning of time", so all I can say is to take it up with Him! wink
Posted By: EdHash

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community - 02/09/08 02:36 PM

Originally Posted by Dandelion
do you mean to tell me that if a woman is in the presence of a monk, the temptation between a man & woman are considered sinful?


Dandelion,

There is a tradition on Athos of it being all male. What is it about this tradition that you don't get?

The topic was about disputed land ownership. Why did a group of women have to climb a fence? Fences on borders of property are there for a reason. What they did was TRESPASS. Do you commend them for taking their claim outside the legal system and then trespass on other's property? What point are you trying to make here? Communities, albeit religious ones, can and DO make up their own rules. Even women have all-female rules under their roof. Would you recommend that any disgruntled man or group of men climb into their compound?

Ed
Posted By: Father Anthony

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community - 02/09/08 02:36 PM

Stop twisting and playing word games here. You know perfectly what was meant. But your absolute lack of respect and reverence is definitely evident.

You have been demeaning this monastic republic and institution with your posts for the past day. You show a complete lack on understanding regarding this and then you try to play dumb. I and others are not buying it.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Posted By: Dandelion

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community - 02/09/08 02:37 PM

you are judging me.....without understanding my reasons

Sister Alice in Christ

ps. would you be so king and explain to me
what "Orthodoxy" actually is.

God Bless,

Deanna
Posted By: EdHash

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community - 02/09/08 02:39 PM

Originally Posted by Alice
All, as far as 'undeveloped land' in Greece, this is an all together different topic, and one which is far too complicated to address here...


Dear Alice,

There are two separate issues at stake. If the land issue WAS the real reason then the women should have taken it to their legal system. The second issue IS the women climbing the fence to make an Oprah sisterhood point. One can conclude that the sisters were using the land issue dispute to make their point.

Ed
Posted By: Father Anthony

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community - 02/09/08 02:39 PM

Originally Posted by Dandelion
you are judging me.....without understanding my reasons

Oh, so now we are going to play the "martyr" card?

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Posted By: Alice

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community - 02/09/08 02:41 PM

Originally Posted by EdHash
Originally Posted by Alice
All, as far as 'undeveloped land' in Greece, this is an all together different topic, and one which is far too complicated to address here...


Dear Alice,

There are two separate issues at stake. If the land issue WAS the real reason then the women should have taken it to their legal system. The second issue IS the women climbing the fence to make an Oprah sisterhood point. One can conclude that the sisters were using the land issue dispute to make their point.

Ed


Indeed and agreed. Alice
Posted By: Dandelion

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community - 02/09/08 02:41 PM

that is your opinion,
I do have a respect for the monastic,

what I am trying to understand is why do you
think, or by the religious that it is sinful between a man and a woman?

I am not buying your opinion either

Love You,

Deanna
Posted By: Father Anthony

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community - 02/09/08 02:45 PM

Maybe before offering your comments, you should look into the life of what monasticism is. I stand by my comments concerning you and the posts in this thread, that they have been nothing but offered in the spirit of being flippant and disrespectful.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Posted By: Dandelion

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community - 02/09/08 02:50 PM

I have, and I'll stick to my thoughts,

call me what you will

God Bless & Love you too! smile

Deanna
Posted By: Administrator

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community - 02/09/08 02:52 PM

Originally Posted by Dandelion
that is your opinion,
I do have a respect for the monastic,

what I am trying to understand is why do you
think, or by the religious that it is sinful between a man and a woman?

I am not buying your opinion either

Love You,

Deanna

Deanna,

You need to understand the basics of Christian morality here.

A particular space has been set aside as a place where men can gather for lives of prayer, away from the things of the world that tempt them to sin. Women who purposely attempt to enter the land where the monastery is located would be an occasion of temptation to those attempting to life a Christian life. So a woman who would knowingly enter such a land would be an occasion of sin. [The reverse is also true. A man entering the land where a woman's monastery is located would also be a possible occasion of sin.]

I agree with the others that your earlier attempt at sexual humor was offensive.

John
Posted By: Dandelion

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community - 02/09/08 02:55 PM

Qoute;
(I agree with the others that your earlier attempt at sexual humor was offensive).

Please tell me what & where the sexual humor did I intend or imply?

Deanna

Posted By: Administrator

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community - 02/09/08 02:59 PM

Originally Posted by Dandelion
Qoute;
(I agree with the others that your earlier attempt at sexual humor was offensive).

Please tell me what & where the sexual humor did I intend or imply?

Deanna


Here is the offensive post:
Originally Posted by Dandelion
Can anyone be sure that the monks didn't pray for the women to jump the fence, and to come up there for a visit? smile

maybe the women were answering someone's prayer up there on the mt.
Deanna

You suggested that the monks were praying to enter sin, and that God would grant their prayers and encourage their sin. Such a comment is offensive.
Posted By: Dandelion

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community - 02/09/08 03:02 PM

How do you figure that one?

so a visit constitutes a sin?

Sometimes I wonder if what is in your " mind" racing ahead of what it is at the moment you are making it out to be a sin.

God Bless to all

Deanna
Posted By: Marian

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community - 02/09/08 03:06 PM

Quote
I am not buying your opinion either

Love You,

Deanna


Quote
God Bless & Love you too! \:\)


Fine words, Dandelion, you truly understand them?

Quote
I am not buying your opinion either


Quote
Can anyone be sure that the monks didn't pray for the women to jump the fence, and to come up there for a visit? \:\)


Your words are rude.

You show no respect to Father Anthony, who is priest monk of Christ.

Even from the first centuries, the Christianity knows different forms of monasticism, different types. For instance, in the 4th century, in the desert of Egypt, there were monasteries which the women could not visit, but others yes. The Fathers, the monks were respected for their choice. THere were women coming from far away, Rome, etc. And some never succeded to see a certain Father. Others yes.

The sin has 12 steps. All is more complex.

A.............

And there is, of course, the Most Blessed and Holy Mother of God - Theotokos.

It is indeed about lack of respect, opportunities, trespass and disobedience.

God have mercy.

m+
Posted By: Administrator

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community - 02/09/08 03:10 PM

Deanna,

Are you suggesting the monks were praying that the women would climb the fence to join them in the church for Vespers?

I'm sorry, I don't buy it.

I must ask you to be Christian in your posts, and not to purposely bait others. When you registered to be a participant here you agreed to certain rules. Please keep your word.

John
Posted By: EdHash

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community - 02/09/08 03:10 PM

Originally Posted by Dandelion
How do you figure that one?

so a visit constitutes a sin?


Ms. Danelion,

What the women did at the protest was not only disrepectful towards the monks, but illegal.

Typical of feminists, you continue to use your sex as the argument. I once visited an all-woman monastery and it too had a wall around its compounds. That wall was there to keep all people, including other women, out. The property behind that wall was reserved for the women who took vows of chastity, poverty, and obedience. ANYONE who breaches that reserved area is being offensive as well as a tresspasser. In my neck of the woods, tresspassers stand a good chance of being met with a gunshot.

Your profile states that you are a learner. Really? But you are a college student, and I don't expect you to understand or learn anything.

Ed
Posted By: Dandelion

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community - 02/09/08 03:15 PM

again, I repeat I have respect for the monastic orders,
however you have in your mind already judge me according to
what you think by your "standards" that I said or meant by.

I do not think I was rude,
nor disrespectful to Fr. Anthony ( he labeled my intellegence to be lower than his in which it is, but still didn't help me find an answer to the question)

I do understand and do back my words

Deanna
Posted By: EdHash

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community - 02/09/08 03:17 PM

Originally Posted by Dandelion
again, I repeat I have respect for the monastic orders,
however you have in your mind already judge me according to
what you think by your "standards" that I said or meant by.


Ms. Dandelion,

Obviously, you do NOT have any standards. I am beginning to believe that this is not about the issue of property disputes or women climbing fences. This is all about you, isn't it?

Ed
Posted By: Father Anthony

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community - 02/09/08 03:17 PM

Deanna,

Would you care to the exact quote to were I labeled your intelligence less than mine. If you can not give such a quote I am going to demand a retraction publicly.

In IC XC,
Father Anthony+
Posted By: Our Lady's slave

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community - 02/09/08 03:17 PM

Dandelion,

So far I have made but one comment on this thread - I have been rather preoccupied since this thread began.

Frankly for someone who proclaims on her Profile to be of Byzantine and Roman religious affiliation I'm appalled at your attitude to the monks.

You may find this inflammatory - if so - too bad.

Your language on this thread has been disgraceful - you have shown absoloutely no understanding of what is involved in monastic life, you have continuously pushed the equality of women [ and that has no place in this thread ] .

I strongly suspect that you are someone who wishes the Ordination of women , and frankly this is abhorrent as well as impossible.

May I suggest you now - since for you it is Lent , spend some time in reflection on the meaning of religious life and then practice a little charity.

Myself - I can ,and do, post this as it is not yet the time of the Great Fast [ the Julian Calendar has it's uses at a time like this ]

Enjoy your Lent
Posted By: Dandelion

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community - 02/09/08 03:18 PM

Please then would someone, anyone explain to me
why relations between any man and any woman are considered sinful?


Posted By: EdHash

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community - 02/09/08 03:19 PM

It makes sense now. It's all about Deanna the College Student.

Ed
Posted By: EdHash

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community - 02/09/08 03:23 PM

Originally Posted by Dandelion
Please then would someone, anyone explain to me
why relations between any man and any woman are considered sinful?

I can give you a very long list, but I would have my posting priveleges taken away permanently.

Deanna, you are supposedly a college student with a lot of learning to do. I don't know what your social group or college is teaching you, but I would like to begin with a word that feminists have used for ages: RESPECT.

The womens monastery I mentioned earlier also had broken glass cemented on the top of their walls to make sure others RESPECTED them.

Ed
Posted By: Dandelion

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community - 02/09/08 03:24 PM

Dear Fr. Anthony

You are right and I do retract publicly.
I am sorry that I do not have the eloquent words, but somehow your labeling words did make me feel less intelligent, and you are right I agree.
I am not that intelligent.
Deanna
Posted By: Our Lady's slave

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community - 02/09/08 03:26 PM

Originally Posted by Dandelion
Please then would someone, anyone explain to me
why relations between any man and any woman are considered sinful?

Easy -

Sexual relations between unmarried people of either or both sexes are sinful.

Sexual relations between a man and a woman who have been married/ joined together , in the Church are not sinful.

Have you read anything about this in the past ? Did you receive any religious education during your school life ?
Posted By: Dandelion

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community - 02/09/08 03:27 PM

Some Christians here,

if anyone who has a different view and is inquiring about it,
you start slamming my profile.

See Ya!

Deanna
Posted By: Dandelion

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community - 02/09/08 03:30 PM

slammed again by fellow Christian

Christianity at is finest!

Maybe this should be on the other post
how Latins/Orthodox aka Catholica slam each other.


Posted By: Our Lady's slave

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community - 02/09/08 03:43 PM

Wrong !!

Here we do respect each other - we do NOT slam each other without due cause.

You have constantly , on this thread , shown lack of respect , lack of understanding of Monastic life, also a lack of understanding re the married state and the sinfulness of sexual relationships outside the married state.

You have riled up two Administrators - and frankly that takes some doing here - remember that one is Orthodox and the other is Catholic .

Congratulations Dandelion

Posted By: Alice

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community - 02/09/08 03:44 PM

Deanna,

You have been rude, sarcastic (as I took the last post to me), and twisting in this thread. I know that morality has become very relative in your generation, and I am sorry about it, but if you are really seeking answers, you are not going about it in the correct way...

The media and society have fed you their own morality--however, in that 'feel good' morality there are many ramifications which they don't mention: STD, future infertility, abortions, unwanted pregnancies, emotional issues, and big time STRESS about all these issues, etc.....In marriage between two virgins, as God intended it, none of these issues arise. Why is that? Because God is a loving God who intended the gift of sexuality to be within marital bounds. When we go outside His boundaries, we experience all the devastation which promiscuous sexuality offers.

I also understand that marriage was intended to be at a young age, but that, most unfortunately, our industrialized societies do not make this easy anymore for a myriad of reasons...

Never forget that our bodies are holy and are temples of the Holy Spirit...I know that is hard to comprehend at your age. I know that the 'hook up' scene, aka: relations without commitment by both males, and now females, is rampant--especially on college campuses. I know that there aren't many young college aged men who want serious relationships with commitment to possible marriage. I know that the future sometimes looks bleak...I know that when one is young they want to have 'fun'and that fun has been taken to pre-Christian era/ pagan limits...

I also know it is hard to accept that practicing Christianity is exceptionally 'counter' social these days. I know alot of things, and I understand...but don't give up hope, and don't give up seeking the answers--but please, do them in a more respectful manner from now on if you truly seek honest answers. Talk to a good pastor or someone else in a spiritual position of moral authority, don't bait on forums and expect as respectful a response in return, as I believe that I am giving you here!

I also think that you owe alot of people an apology for your attitude and the way you like to twist posts and intentions of posts.

As for your confusion about premarital sexuality, pray about it and bring it to God, but also remember that women deserve something better than 'hooking up'. They deserve to be loved and cherished for WHO they are--their emotions, their feelings, their hopes, their dreams, their challenges, etc.

I pray for you and for all beautiful young people today. These are not easy times to be a Christian or to walk the Christian walk.

Please remember that respect, in all things, is a two way street. I hope that you will be more respectful from now on to everyone on this forum.

In Christ,
Alice
Posted By: Administrator

Re: Greek women enter male-only Mount Athos community - 02/09/08 03:50 PM

Originally Posted by Dandelion
Some Christians here,

if anyone who has a different view and is inquiring about it, you start slamming my profile.

See Ya!

Deanna

Deanna,

Why was it OK when you were slamming monasticism and trying to bait people, and twisting their words but it is not OK when others call you to account? It does not seem to me that you were “inquiring” about anything.

It is not OK to have a different view about Christian morality. You have the freedom to accept or reject it. You do not have the freedom to change it, to say it is something other then what it is. Spend some time with your Bible (especially the Gospels). Spend some time in prayer and in contemplating the Church’s teaching on these issues. It is all there waiting for you.

John
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