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Posted By: DAVIDinVA well it's over! - 11/05/08 05:20 AM
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/27531033/
http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/11/04/election.president/index.html
http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/11/04/wrap-polls-start-close-frenied-day-voting/
Posted By: ebed melech Re: well it's over! - 11/05/08 05:24 AM
Yes...I heard John McCain's concession speech.

Truthfully, I feel like assuming the fetal position...a very dangerous position indeed in the upcoming Obama administration.

Lord have mercy...

Fr Deacon Daniel
Posted By: Jakub. Re: well it's over! - 11/05/08 05:30 AM
It begins...
Posted By: Fr. Deacon Lance Re: well it's over! - 11/05/08 05:35 AM
"Remember, Lord, our most faithful and pious public authorities which You have counted worthy to be appointed over this land: crown them with the armor of truth, with the armor of glory; cover their heads on the day of battle, strengthen their arm, exalt their right hand, establish power. Subdue to them barbarous nations that delight in war; grant them deep peace that cannot be taken away; speak good things to their hearts for your Church and all your people, that within their peace we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. Remember, Lord, all lawmakers and magistrates and our brethren in public office and in all the Armed Forces: preserve the good in their goodness, and in your kindness, make the wicked become good"(From the commemorations of the Divine Liturgy of St. Basil the Great).
Posted By: Gwenyfur Re: well it's over! - 11/05/08 05:47 AM
Lord have mercy...[Linked Image]
Posted By: DewiMelkite Re: well it's over! - 11/05/08 05:51 AM
UGHHHHHH,


Posted By: JSMelkiteOrthodoxy Re: well it's over! - 11/05/08 06:21 AM
Remember that is it the Lord who puts rulers in power and removes them from power. Trust in God's providence.

Joe
Posted By: ebed melech Re: well it's over! - 11/05/08 06:38 AM
Originally Posted by JSMelkiteOrthodoxy
Remember that is it the Lord who puts rulers in power and removes them from power. Trust in God's providence.

Joe


Joe,

In principle, I agree. But in salvation history, the Lord would often in HIs permissive will "appoint" leaders who were more of a punishment for His people - to refine them and to be an reflection of their iniquity in order to call them to repentance.

The history of the 20th century demonstrates this pattern in spades, particularly in Western Europe.

I hope and pray for this man's conversion on issues of principle. He has been shaped by views that are generally hostile to certain Christian principles, and he is beholden politically to those who advocate for these views. Let us hope that his governance is strong enough to resist these elements. I have strong doubts in this regard, yet I can still - and must - hope.

God bless,

Fr. Deacon Daniel
Posted By: Etnick Re: well it's over! - 11/05/08 07:18 AM
Originally Posted by ebed melech
Yes...I heard John McCain's concession speech.

Truthfully, I feel like assuming the fetal position...a very dangerous position indeed in the upcoming Obama administration.

Lord have mercy...

Fr Deacon Daniel


I couldn't agree more! Hospodi Pomiluj!... 40 times! frown
Posted By: Steve Petach Re: well it's over! - 11/05/08 07:27 AM
Originally Posted by JSMelkiteOrthodoxy
Remember that is it the Lord who puts rulers in power and removes them from power. Trust in God's providence.

Joe


Given the choice of "leaders" we have seen over the centuries, does the Lord put them into power, or does He let us excercise our free will in choosing our leaders? Since we are free to choose whether to worship God or deny Him, (with ramifications) we are also free to choose whom we elect (also with ramifications). Rather than presume the Lord has punished us by our poor judgement in character, we should look into our own motives as a society at the choices we make in electing our leaders.

I'm glad I did NOT vote for our most recent President Elect, #44!
Posted By: byzantina Re: well it's over! - 11/05/08 08:09 AM
I am glad I did not vote for him either and will not be on my conscience however as a people we will have to endure as a nation the results of the wishes of the majority of the populace and it is very depressing that they have made such a bad choice. However I also know God`s will be done. We must pray very hard and be prepared for a rough road ahead and continue to do what we can individually and in groups such as Priests For Life to try and counteract whatever the future presidency has in store for us on the pro-life area. Yes we must pray for Obama that some of his positions will soften. I have my doubts though that they will.
Posted By: Terry Bohannon Re: well it's over! - 11/05/08 08:29 AM
I will have to think about where I may work if the American oil industry crashes. I hope that the company I work for will maintain its international customers.
Posted By: Terry Bohannon Re: well it's over! - 11/05/08 08:30 AM
"HIs permissive will 'appoint' leaders who were more of a punishment for His people"

Must we be so punished?
Posted By: Alice Re: well it's over! - 11/05/08 08:33 AM
Lord have mercy...

I was talking to a VERY holy Orthodox cleric today about other matters..In the course of our conversation, he said privately that although it is not his business to talk about politics, that he is VERY scared of Obama. He said that he will bring to the U.S. a form of communism, and that he is not what he is presenting himself to be...that there is something he is hiding.

Well-we definitely know what is *not* being hidden, but people don't care. I believe that most Americans do not vote intelligently...I know that I didn't when I was a young adult, and I know that too many young adults today do not...then ofcourse there is the race factor and voting for someone of your own race just because they are your own race. Ofcourse there is also the 'we will fix Bush' voters, who simply vote for the opposite party, no matter who the candidate is, to make a statement against the highly demonized current President.

I know people that have read his book, in order to be informed, and so that they will not just vote, or not vote, on the likability or racial factor, and have been quite fearful of what he himself wrote.

On the other hand, we also now know that you can have a crazy spiritual mentor who says 'God damn America' and jumps up and down screaming other such nonsense, and no one will care about that either, if they 'like' you...The days of saint like Christian men like Billy Graham having a spiritual influence over our leaders is over.

This has nothing to do with him being a democrat. I rather wish that Hilary Clinton were celebrating tonight her victory for the Democrats tonight instead.

Lord have mercy....

Posted By: ebed melech Re: well it's over! - 11/05/08 12:53 PM
Originally Posted by Alice

This has nothing to do with him being a democrat. I rather wish that Hilary Clinton were celebrating tonight her victory for the Democrats tonight instead.


Amen, Alice. I think even the Clinton's are scared of this man.

I feel as if we have elected the Weatherman Underground 2.0. And the Fourth Estate did a complete disservice to our nation by protecting him from scrutiny.

The only measure (albeit very small) of satisfaction that I have is that an African-American has attained the highest office in the land. Insofar as this is a great accomplishment for our nation, I am gratified. But that, I'm afraid, is as far as it goes.
Posted By: Anna Re: well it's over! - 11/05/08 01:31 PM
"The Lord often uses his enemies to chastise his friends." -Fr. John Corapi
Posted By: Terry Bohannon Re: well it's over! - 11/05/08 01:59 PM
I have to wonder how much of the public is aware of the underpinnings and the consequences of socialism. I don't think Sen. Biden was being honest when he dismissed charges of wealth distribution by speaking of fairness.

If the consequences are played out in the economy over the next four years, which would happen if the coal industry is bankrupted after being unable to abide by tightened CAFE standards, I have to wonder if the causes would be recognized. I am not looking forward to an implementation of the Fairness Doctrine either.

Terry
Posted By: Mike L. Re: well it's over! - 11/05/08 03:14 PM
I saw a statistic last night while watching the election coverage that the Catholic vote in the swing state of Pennsylvania was 51% McCain to 49% Obama. Almost half the Catholics in this state voted for Obama despite his views on abortion and gay marriage. WOW! It's probably safe to assume that this statistic projects nationwide, and truly saddens me, especially after so many Bishops came out about how Catholics should vote.

On a positive note it looks like voters in California, Florida and Arizona appeared to be have passed constitutional amendments banning gay marriage.

Mike
Posted By: ebed melech Re: well it's over! - 11/05/08 03:38 PM
Originally Posted by Terry Bohannon
I am not looking forward to an implementation of the Fairness Doctrine either.

Terry


Terry,

Yes, I agree. Sen. Chucky Schumer has already compared "Talk Radio" to pornography. My sense is that we will see liberals defend pornography and the rights of pornographers before they defend the rights of conservative Talk Radio.

I plan to listen to Rush today over lunch. It would not surprise me if that is one of the topics of discussion...

Fr. Deacon Daniel
Posted By: Diak Re: well it's over! - 11/05/08 04:16 PM
Quote
I'm glad I did NOT vote for our most recent President Elect, #44!


Me neither, brother!

Instead of listening to "Rush" over lunch (I gave that up years ago) I will be praying the Sixth Hour and the Akathist to the Holy Spirit. Much more effecacious in the long run.
Posted By: Terry Bohannon Re: well it's over! - 11/05/08 04:37 PM
Fr. Deacon Daniel,

Rush was playing Schumer's quote yesterday. I look forward to listening to today's broadcast tomorrow.

Pornography is often a "legal" form of prostitution. I don't see how it being a production makes it much different than prostitution if a young girl finds herself victim to her self image and the false pretensions of the producers that bring her to the set and the men who lust after her when watching the video or looking at the photograph. That's just one case, yet that is free speech.

The "right to privacy" falls into a similar category in my opinion.

We can let young women voluntarily fall under the knife with major surgery when they wouldn't be able to have a tattoo without the explicit permission of their parents. At least a tattoo is removable.

Terry
Posted By: Lawrence Re: well it's over! - 11/05/08 05:51 PM

We've sunk to a new all time low, but as Alcoholics Anonymous say (I think) Sometimes you have to hit rock bottom.

Spend a day watching major network television, MTV, pick up a popular magazine or newspaper, look at a billboard or any advertising, have a conversation with someone under 30 (away from church) and all the tell tale signs are there. The election of Barack Obama to the office of president merely reflects the kind of country America has become.
Posted By: Converted Viking Re: well it's over! - 11/05/08 06:03 PM
Originally Posted by Lawrence

have a conversation with someone under 30 (away from church) and all the tell tale signs are there. The election of Barack Obama to the office of president merely reflects the kind of country America has become.


Rubbish! I find plenty of people in my own age group that are utterly obnoxious as well. I am in my 50s and I find my own generation rather less than desirable.

Converted Viking
Posted By: Krotoski Re: well it's over! - 11/05/08 06:47 PM
If that generation is less than desireable, just imagine how bad we "youngins" have it then!!! laugh

Just me trying to be funny and hit the point!!

In Christ,
Aaron

Posted By: Lawrence Re: well it's over! - 11/05/08 07:56 PM

I agree Converted Viking, and there are plenty even older. A few yrs ago I got into it with 4 guys over 60 in the locker room of my health club. All 4 said they were Catholic, but were loudly proclaiming that until the Catholic Church allows priests to get married, we're going to continue to have priests molesting children.

In all honesty though, the younger you go, the worse and worse it get's.
Posted By: Lawrence Re: well it's over! - 11/05/08 08:02 PM

I agree Converted Viking, and there are plenty even older. A few yrs ago I got into it with 4 guys over 60 in the locker room of my health club. All 4 said they were Catholic, but were loudly proclaiming that until the Catholic Church allows priests to get married, we're going to continue to have priests molesting children.

In all honesty though, the younger you go, the worse and worse it get's.
Posted By: Logos - Alexis Re: well it's over! - 11/05/08 08:05 PM
Do y'all ever get tired of fear-mongering?

Alexis
Posted By: Ladyhawke1017 Re: well it's over! - 11/05/08 08:06 PM
Apparently the majority of Americans have decided that moral relativism is a fair trade for a good economy
Posted By: DewiMelkite Re: well it's over! - 11/05/08 08:08 PM
It saddens me when I hear how many catholics voted for obama. Prop 8 has passed here in cali tho, thanks mainly to the funding of mormons and The knights of Columbus.
Posted By: Ladyhawke1017 Re: well it's over! - 11/05/08 08:09 PM
Originally Posted by Converted Viking
Originally Posted by Lawrence

have a conversation with someone under 30 (away from church) and all the tell tale signs are there. The election of Barack Obama to the office of president merely reflects the kind of country America has become.


Rubbish! I find plenty of people in my own age group that are utterly obnoxious as well. I am in my 50s and I find my own generation rather less than desirable.

Converted Viking


I agree. I'm 49 and our generation scares me more than their kids do.
Posted By: Ladyhawke1017 Re: well it's over! - 11/05/08 08:11 PM
Originally Posted by DewiMelkite
It saddens me when I hear how many catholics voted for obama. Prop 8 has passed here in cali tho, thanks mainly to the funding of mormons and The knights of Columbus.

All that hard work...congratulations to all of you who fought so hard...sadly, Nancy Pelosi and co. will probably make short work of Prop 8 as soon at the new President takes office.
Posted By: byzanTN Re: well it's over! - 11/05/08 10:36 PM
I didn't vote for Obama, but I do understand why McCain was defeated. The current administration and the Republicans in Congress have been inept beyond belief. Mr. Obama should send President Bush a thank you note.
Posted By: anamchristi Re: well it's over! - 11/05/08 10:53 PM
I'm very happy and proud to say I voted for him! I have a feeling he will turn out to be one of our greatest presidents. I'm just hoping he and the rest of the Democrats will have enough power to reverse the numerous failings of the Bush regime.
Posted By: Terry Bohannon Re: well it's over! - 11/06/08 12:22 AM
Greatest in what way?
Posted By: Fr Serge Keleher Re: well it's over! - 11/06/08 12:32 AM
The campaign is over, the election is over, Barack Obama is the President-Elect, and it is time to realize that whatever anyone may think of him, he will soon be the President and much more that his personal fate will depend upon him. Hence, may I suggest abandoning invective and emotionalism, expressing opposition sparingly and in the normal ways of educated people, and remembering that while the USA is not the Promised Land, the world is better off for America's presence.

Pray for the country, pray for the President, who certainly will need it, and don't give people the impression that one is planning to tear down the White House brick by brick. Strive to build, not burn.

Or such is my advice at the moment. Even if you feel that you must leave the country, do so, but then remember that when a gentleman feels compelled to divorce his wife, all that he ever says about her is "she is a wonderful woman; I'm so sorry that it didn't work out." People will know exactly what you really mean, fear not.

Fr. Serge
Posted By: Altar Server Re: well it's over! - 11/06/08 12:34 AM
We must cling to the church and implore God's mercy for our fellow country men have ushered in an era of the culture of death now Satan has a friend in the white house the entire world is enveloped in evil I fear the church will once again fall under wide spread persecution I fear for the country the church and souls we must fight back
Posted By: Paul B Re: well it's over! - 11/06/08 06:03 AM
In my opinion I think I have more respect for Obama than Rush Limbaugh. The hatred spewed turns me off!

Our nation elected Obama; now we have to live with him. Perhaps this saying is timely:

If you were accused of being a Christian, would there be enough evidence to convict you?
Posted By: christos_anesti Re: well it's over! - 11/06/08 06:15 AM
Even though I did not vote for him (Or McCain I'm a proud Libertarian voted Bob Barr, but lest I digress)I am getting tired of Obama being likened to the Anti-Christ, friend of Satan, evil, etc. He is a human being, and as one he is open to receive the grace from God to turn away from many of his policies which we as Christians find to be contrary to our faith. We should be praying for this to happen rather than talking about how screwed everyone is. Pardon my language. Break out the prayers not the vitrol, I think God is more partial to the former than the latter.
Posted By: Ung-Certez Re: well it's over! - 11/06/08 09:16 AM
Originally Posted by ebed melech
Yes...I heard John McCain's concession speech.

Truthfully, I feel like assuming the fetal position...a very dangerous position indeed in the upcoming Obama administration.

Lord have mercy...

Fr Deacon Daniel


"Put not your trust in man, but in God, who knows men's hearts."!

Ung
Posted By: Pavel Ivanovich Re: well it's over! - 11/06/08 10:15 AM
I agree with Fr Serge's post above. The election is over and Mr Obama is now the President elect of The United States of America. It is time for Americans to unite and start pulling together as a nation. The rest of the world is watching you and taking note of how you behave and the things you say about the man who won. Those who consider themselves the loosers in the election, try to be as gracious as Mr McCain was in his speech to his supporters.

Posted By: Fr David Straut Re: well it's over! - 11/06/08 03:04 PM
Originally Posted by Pavel Ivanovich
Those who consider themselves the loosers in the election, try to be as gracious as Mr McCain was in his speech to his supporters.

Sadly, the losers in this election are not McCain and those who voted for him, or even the American people as a whole, but the unborn. How many millions more will die because Barak Obama has been elected by the American people? That is the only reason that I mourn the results of this election. But, whoever the civil authorities are, we have a duty to lift them up to the Lord in prayer. We also have an obligation by prayer and sacrifice to assist the defenseless from those who would destroy them.

Fr David Straut

Posted By: Fr David Straut Re: well it's over! - 11/06/08 03:05 PM
Originally Posted by Serge Keleher
The campaign is over, the election is over, Barack Obama is the President-Elect, and it is time to realize that whatever anyone may think of him, he will soon be the President and much more that his personal fate will depend upon him. Hence, may I suggest abandoning invective and emotionalism, expressing opposition sparingly and in the normal ways of educated people, and remembering that while the USA is not the Promised Land, the world is better off for America's presence.

Pray for the country, pray for the President, who certainly will need it, and don't give people the impression that one is planning to tear down the White House brick by brick. Strive to build, not burn.

Or such is my advice at the moment. Even if you feel that you must leave the country, do so, but then remember that when a gentleman feels compelled to divorce his wife, all that he ever says about her is "she is a wonderful woman; I'm so sorry that it didn't work out." People will know exactly what you really mean, fear not.

Fr. Serge

Wonderful post. I couldn't agree more.

Fr David Straut

Posted By: JSMelkiteOrthodoxy Re: well it's over! - 11/06/08 05:03 PM
Originally Posted by christos_anesti
Even though I did not vote for him (Or McCain I'm a proud Libertarian voted Bob Barr, but lest I digress)I am getting tired of Obama being likened to the Anti-Christ, friend of Satan, evil, etc. He is a human being, and as one he is open to receive the grace from God to turn away from many of his policies which we as Christians find to be contrary to our faith. We should be praying for this to happen rather than talking about how screwed everyone is. Pardon my language. Break out the prayers not the vitrol, I think God is more partial to the former than the latter.


Amen, thank you and thank you to Fr. Serge, Alexis Paul B. and others who are also tired of all this right wing hysteria. It amazes me how people can blithely call Obama a servant of Satan and not realize that there may be good reasons for seeing Bush and McCain as servants of Satan as well.

We are not to judge and we are not to bear false witness. I think that Obama's position on abortion is horribly wrong, but I do not know what is in his heart. I do not know whether he finds abortion to be a great thing or a necessary evil. I firmly believe that being prochoice is wrong. But, for many, it is not a moral error but a political. Most people who are pro-choice have a flawed view of the role of government and human freedom, but they are not personally pro-abortion. Also, the vast majority of the American electorate simply wants the abortion issue to go away. For the vast majority of Americans, abortion is not even really a political issue on the table. They vote on economics issues and sometimes foreign policy. That is all that most people care about and there is no reason to think that this is going to change. Now I suppose that I will probably be called Un-Christian, a friend of Satan, and doomed to hell by some folks here and that is fine. Everyone is entitled to his opinion. But I am just sick and tired of the ridiculous, fear-mongering and total hysteria on the part of those who are opposed to Obama. It is one thing to rationally criticize his politics, but another thing to paint him as an evil Marxist, muslim-sympathizing, baby killing, child of the antichrist.

Oh, and I did vote for Obama. I voted for him in spite of his position on abortion because I do not believe that the GOP is serious about making the prolife cause a priority and I'm sending a message to the GOP that they can't take my vote for granted. So, if you want to consider me an agent of Satan then go ahead. Peace and blessings,

Joe
Posted By: stormshadow Re: well it's over! - 11/06/08 05:24 PM
In the words of Jesse Ventura, "we have one more choice than Russia". No offense to any Russians...

...just my 2 cents: One side would like to maintain the status quo and keep abortion legal and a choice. The other wants to put soldiers lives in jeopardy to perpetuate a war that has no objective anymore. If one were to vote on only these issues alone, it is a choice of evils. Thankfully, it is NOT just these moral choices that necessarily constitutes a vote.

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone". I can certainly not judge you, JSMelkite. Nor can I disagree with your stance.
Posted By: JSMelkiteOrthodoxy Re: well it's over! - 11/06/08 05:32 PM
Originally Posted by stormshadow
In the words of Jesse Ventura, "we have one more choice than Russia". No offense to any Russians...

...just my 2 cents: One side would like to maintain the status quo and keep abortion legal and a choice. The other wants to put soldiers lives in jeopardy to perpetuate a war that has no objective anymore. If one were to vote on only these issues alone, it is a choice of evils. Thankfully, it is NOT just these moral choices that necessarily constitutes a vote.

"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone". I can certainly not judge you, JSMelkite. Nor can I disagree with your stance.


Thank you my friend. God bless you.

Joe
Posted By: monksilouan Re: well it's over! - 11/06/08 06:15 PM


I’m not the first to say it, but I’m still going to say that America has officially become an “obamanation” in the sight of God. Obama has charmed and lied his way into the presidency, and the powers of Hell are rejoicing. Lord, what a disaster! Soon we’ll see the Freedom of Choice Act (a.k.a. the License to Kill Act) in place, and there will be no safe haven for unborn children anywhere in this country. Partial-birth abortion will be allowed in every state and all restrictions on abortion will be lifted. Thank you, American people, for the wanton destruction of your own children! This is “your victory,” as your new hero has proclaimed. The genocide will not only continue, but will increase in its bloody vehemence.


We also have to thank especially the “Christian” people of our country. If the Catholics alone would have voted according to the tenets of our faith, the election would have turned out differently. I have been forced to come to a chilling conclusion: the election of Obama was the will of God. This is why I say this. Millions of people were praying to God to spare the unborn from unmitigated slaughter. Many were fasting and keeping vigil. Priests and even bishops were offering Masses. Scripture says that if we pray according to God’s will He will grant what we ask. But God rejected millions of prayers and sacrifices for this urgent intention. It must be that it was already too late. He had already decided that the wheels of the Apocalypse should start to turn. Another frightening thing I read is that there were pagan priests and priestesses praying and offering sacrifices to demons so that Obama would be elected, and their prayers were answered! Look out, America, for the wrath of God is going to fall on you.


(It was interesting to note that on the very night of his election, Obama was already hinting that he’s going to renege on his campaign promises, or at least that we’re not going to see his vaunted “change” anytime soon: “The road ahead will be long. Our climb will be steep. We may not get there in one year or even one term…” Sheesh, he’s already running for re-election!)


There was recently published an insightful analysis into the Obama phenomenon by the Catholic author Michael D. O’Brien. I’ll share some of it now, but if you want to read the whole thing, click here. This is what we’ve brought upon ourselves. This is our new president.


“A few weeks ago a German friend called me immediately after Obama’s speech in Berlin, to say that the presidential candidate had mesmerized the crowds, and that a commentator on German television had said: ‘We have just heard the next President of the United States…and the future President of the World’… From my own reading of Obama’s declarations and stated positions, I knew he was an ultra-liberal, a social revolutionary with visionary pretensions. But the Antichrist? No, not possible, I thought. I felt that he was too shallow a man to be the Son of Perdition, the Man of Sin, the Beast of the Book of Revelation. And I still think so. Obama is a crowd-pleaser with just the right ethos of idealistic crusader. That the crusade and the banners under which it marches are evil does not automatically prove that he is the Antichrist.

“But now that I have seen the video of the Berlin speech I think there is more here than meets the eye. He is indeed a powerful manipulator of crowds, even as he appears ever so humble and wholesomely charming. I doubt that he is the long-prophesied ruler of the world, but I also believe that he is a carrier of a deadly moral virus, indeed a kind of anti-apostle spreading concepts and agendas that are not only anti-Christ but anti-human as well. In this sense he is of the spirit of Antichrist (perhaps without knowing it), and probably is one of several key figures in the world who (knowingly or unknowingly) will be instrumental in ushering in the time of great trial for the Church under its last and worst persecution, amidst the numerous other tribulations prophesied in the books of Daniel and Revelation, and letters of St Paul, St. John, and St. Peter.

“Of course the mystique that has grown up around him is endlessly reinforced by the liberal media, which presents him to us as a high-minded humanist, a kind of secular messiah (see the Catechism of the Catholic Church, n. 675). Yet when all the rhetoric is boiled down to its substance, the man is advocating unlimited state-sanctioned murder, and compounds it by indulging in habitual falsehood. He is well accustomed to playing loose with the truth whenever it is expedient for him to do so; or else he is the victim of the largest memory lapses in recorded history; or perhaps he is just not careful about how he expresses things—a blurring or selectivity regarding facts for the purpose of aggrandizing his public image…


“What are we to make of a man who has appeared out of semi-obscurity and become, nearly overnight, so very much an idol of the popular imagination? That he intends to become the most effective advocate of murder of the unborn ever seen in America should give us pause. Murder and lies are as old as the lands east of Eden, of course, but when they are charmingly packaged, proposed as reasonable and just policies (with a smile, a resonant voice, and an appealing flash of the eyes), one begins to wonder just what is afoot in the modern age. It brings to mind a passage from the first Act of Shakespeare’s Hamlet:

“‘That one may smile, and smile, and be a villain…’

“The line is from a scene where prince Hamlet has just encountered the ghost of his father, who informs his son that he was poisoned by his own brother Claudius (the ‘smiling, damned villain’), who after murdering him, seized the king’s crown and his queen.

“Barack Obama is an image-maker, creating his own myth as he goes along. This would be a sad defect in any human being, but it takes on ominous proportions in a person who may become, after November 4th, one of the most powerful figures in the world. How is it possible that such a tragic turn of events may come about, if indeed a majority of Americans choose to believe the smile and the myth? Why is it that so many people have come to believe that a mirage is reality, even destiny? Do pro-Obama voters hanker for a world figure who would heal old divisions between races and religions, thus heralding a new age for mankind? During this time of near intolerable tensions, does he appear to be the one who can reconcile Islam and Christianity, Africa and America, occident and orient, black and white, rich and poor? Do they see his racial origins as a symbolic victory over the history of racial oppression? Do they see in him the good-hearted ‘under-dog’, the gutsy street fighter who agitates for the rights of the ‘little guy,’ whose meteoric rise to a position of maximum influence represents themselves enthroned at last in the high seat of power? Is this why they ignore his every grave fault and hungrily consume his vague idealist platitudes as if these were a kind of new gospel for the third millennium? Our hero. Our visionary. Our Great Friend and spokesman in the forum of the world?…

“So why Obama? And why does he rise and rise as his mouth smiles and smiles, exuding sincerity as he speaks lies and death? And why, most horribly, most shamefully, are so many Christians of malformed or unformed conscience supporting him? Is it because they have never been clearly instructed in the truth, never understood the foundation upon which the moral cosmos is built? Is morality for them merely another system of abstract ‘values’ in a crowded playing field of such systems, from which one may pick and choose? In the case of Catholics, for example, have they been blinded by a diet of theological nuances and deadly little loopholes offered to them by the committees of national episcopal conferences — committees that have absolutely no authority over Catholics, yet which are widely revered as a kind of alternative Magisterium? … One either turns away into a deeper state of denial, or one turns heart and mind toward the splendor of Truth, and changes one’s life accordingly.”


It looks like God has given us up to our own chosen depravities (see Rom. 1:18-32). St Paul, when dealing with a single evildoer in the Corinthian church, commanded the faithful, with the power of Jesus, “to deliver this man to satan for the destruction of his flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus” (1Cor. 5:3-5). Has God just delivered America to satan, that is, permitted us to suffer the consequences of our evil choices so that in the end we may repent and be saved? “Do not be deceived,” says the Apostle, “God is not mocked; for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap” (Gal. 6:7). America has sown evil in electing the grinning monster to the presidency. She will reap an evil harvest. Judgment will inexorably come, one way or another. Will America turn back to God? Will she wait until it is too late? “They turn to Me their backs and not their faces; yet in their time of trouble they cry out, ‘Rise up and save us!’ Where are the gods you made for yourselves? Let them rise up!” (Jer. 2:27-28).
+Joseph, Abbot
Mt. Tabor Ukrainian Catholic Monastery
Posted By: lanceg Re: well it's over! - 11/06/08 10:05 PM
Joe,

Amen, thanks- you have summed up my feelings exactly on the matter (and thanks to Fr. Serge, Alexis Paul B. and others). I believe that the prolife cause is not helped but hindered by negative, fear-mongering, and hateful attitudes that sometimes get attached to it. The Epistle of Diognetus says God does not compel but persuade. Are we to condemn are President and fellow citizens, as dumb, evil, unenlightened, or are we to model love and compassion, and make persuasive arguments?

Blessings,
Lance
Posted By: ajk Re: well it's over! - 11/06/08 11:10 PM
Originally Posted by JSMelkiteOrthodoxy
I voted for him ...because I do not believe that the [___] is serious about making the prolife cause a priority and I'm sending a message to the [___] that they can't take my vote for granted. So, if you want to consider me an agent of Satan then go ahead.
No, not an agent of Satan, but I think this is the old cutting off of one's (political) nose to spite one's (moral) face. It seems to be a fairly common phenomenon of this election; in the end both the nose and the face are the worse for it.
Posted By: ebed melech Re: well it's over! - 11/06/08 11:41 PM
I think the issue fundamentally is that those who are pro-life and yet still voted for Obama knowing full well of his plans to remove all obstacles to the killing of unborn children did so, not because they are "evil people" or "pawns of Satan", but rather because they believed that there was a "proportionate reason" to do so. Somewhere, somehow there was another issue which they regarded as more heinous than this which constitutes a most despicable crime against humanity.

Bottom line? From my perspective, it is not a matter of "conservative" or "liberal"..."right wing" or "left wing", "Republican" or "Democrat", rather it is a question of moral reasoning. Pro-lifers who voted for Obama engaged in flawed moral reasoning, IMHO. They are not evil people, but I believe that they may have cooperated in an evil.

Pro-Life is not a matter of party. It is a matter of principle. Were the situation reversed and the Republicans put forward a person equally as radical on this question of unborn (or even recently born) human life, and I had the alternative of a pro-life Democrat or a third party, I would most certainly vote pro-life. It is certainly not the only issue, but it is a pivotal one.
Posted By: MrsMW Re: well it's over! - 11/07/08 12:32 AM
I wonder who the unborn would have voted for?

Posted By: ajk Re: well it's over! - 11/07/08 12:34 AM
Originally Posted by stormshadow
...One side would like to maintain the status quo and keep abortion legal and a choice. The other wants to put soldiers lives in jeopardy to perpetuate a war that has no objective anymore. If one were to vote on only these issues alone, it is a choice of evils...


This approach -- rationale -- has also been expressed in another thread now closed. I am surprised and dismayed to have seen it there, and now here too, since it represents to me evidence of the demise of sound thinking in our society and culture. It is not that most people would vote or support evil in itself but, in its own way it is just as frightening and insidious that they reason the evil away with loose arguments, or because they allow others to think for them, or are the unwitting victims of subtle and not so subtle manipulation.

The this-or-that comparisons put forth here and in the other thread remind me of the old monkey-typewriter example of statistical reasoning (let's update it to a word processor keyboard): You put a monkey down in front of a keyboard; it will either type out the plays of Shakespeare or it will not. Therefore it has a 50% chance of typing out the plays of Shakespeare. Rather straightforward; just that simple, either or.

But the choice is not just simply one evil or another.

There’s a lot to be said and argued about just war theory and how it applies with the threats and technology of today. That is an issue. Consider first, however, the very basis: the purpose and motivation determining the morality of the actions being compared.

What is the correct comparison to the “war” against the unborn? Consider a war conducted for two specific purposes, and evaluate the equivalence of the morality of each relative to the issue of abortion.

Here are two limiting-cases, hypothetical scenarios. Let’s call the countries involved US and IT.

Scenario 1: The US demands of the IT that IT shows that it is not harboring the lethal weapons called WMDs. IT refuses and the US invades to achieve the objective of destroying the WMDs. Because of the massive weaponry of the US, it turns out that there is no resistance. IT essentially gives up. Not one shot is fired, no one on either side dies. The US finds that IT was bluffing; there are no WMDs. The US totally achieves its objective; there was no objective to kill.


Scenario 2: The US is aware that there are people who inhabit IT. They, the ITs, have no weapons and are totally defenseless and poor; so poor in fact that the only thing they have is that they are alive. Nevertheless, for a number of reasons the US decides that these people of IT must be terminated. They are an inconvenience and at the least may pose psychological problems for some in US. That the IT’s will be terminated is, of course, not also without specific reasons or cause: some are the wrong sex; they are an infringement on the US’s lifestyle, they present a financial burden; some are not considered normal or are deemed deficient mentally or physically; some are the result of rape; some are the result of incest; some will not live long anyway; some will be a burden on society; others are unplanned, etc. And since the primary objective is that they die, the US military is instructed that if any somehow survive the war, the military could be sued for negligence under US law on the basis of the IT’s continued wrongful-existence. Whatever the reason, according to US law the IT are not protected in any way; many citizens of US are very comfortable with this objective since it is, after all, sanctioned by law. I could go on, but here the objective is that the IT must die.

Are the two scenarios just examples of one evil or another? We can argue the just/unjust war. But when any country/entity conducts a war of genocide, we know that it is intrinsically unjust and evil. And abortion is the genocide of the transnational IT/entity we know, among other names, as humanity.

Posted By: MrsMW Re: well it's over! - 11/07/08 12:37 AM
Amen Father. I will pray that this new president has a change of heart and will see that the protecting the unborn should be the first thing he does.

Will those who voted for him on this forum feel the same way when he starts in on his abortion agenda or will they bring up big bad Bush?
Posted By: Wolfgang Re: well it's over! - 11/07/08 12:45 AM
Could someone please tell me what type of education Rush Limbaugh has?


Quote
I plan to listen to Rush today over lunch. It would not surprise me if that is one of the topics of discussion...

Posted By: ebed melech Re: well it's over! - 11/07/08 01:00 AM
Originally Posted by Wolfgang
Could someone please tell me what type of education Rush Limbaugh has?


Quote
I plan to listen to Rush today over lunch. It would not surprise me if that is one of the topics of discussion...



Off topic. My comment pertained to the topic of the "Fairness Doctrine", about which he would have some expertise as it pertains to his longstanding successful career in media.
Posted By: Lawrence Re: well it's over! - 11/07/08 01:04 AM

Father Joseph

That was one of the most outrageous posts I've ever read on this forum. AND I agree completely.
Posted By: Wolfgang Re: well it's over! - 11/07/08 01:15 AM
I am a Federal Law Enforcement Officer and I can personally attest that the majority of my fellow officers detested Bush and his exploitation of the fears of the common person to pursue his own goals.
Coming from a rural area in Ohio, I understand why the Republican party is so popular in rural areas. Ignorance, Ignorance, Ignorance! No wonder why people there believed Bush and his speeches about "the enemy."


Posted By: ebed melech Re: well it's over! - 11/07/08 01:52 AM
My mother was on a bio-terrorism task force supporting a major military installation here in the US. From what she shared with me, these threats were quite real.

I also am friends with a retired FBI guy who was very close to John O'Neill. From what he says (and he does not say much), the threats are all quite real. Hard to believe that so much false intelligence would be cascading down from President Bush.

Not sure that your claims of "ignorance" are entirely founded. There was, after all, this little event known as 9/11...
Posted By: MrsMW Re: well it's over! - 11/07/08 02:15 AM
So rural people are republican because of ignorance? WOW! I didn't know city folk are the only smart people out there. Then again I live close to the rural folks so maybe their ignorance has rubbed off on me.
Posted By: theophan Re: well it's over! - 11/07/08 02:19 AM
+Joseph, Abbot
Mt. Tabor Ukrainian Catholic Monastery

Father Joseph, bless!!

The link that you mention in your post is not there in my copy.

??

BOB
Posted By: ebed melech Re: well it's over! - 11/07/08 02:46 AM
Originally Posted by MrsMW
So rural people are republican because of ignorance? WOW! I didn't know city folk are the only smart people out there. Then again I live close to the rural folks so maybe their ignorance has rubbed off on me.


It is a shame that many (not all) who espouse liberalism act elitist towards those of us who are conservatives. It is a mental construct that they use to explain all behavior which does not align with their "enlightened" views:

"Obviously you must be ignorant farm hands if you do not agree with me!"

Unfortunately, sometimes elitism becomes the substitute for substantive and rational debate on the issues.
Posted By: Diak Re: well it's over! - 11/07/08 02:53 AM
Quote
I'm a proud Libertarian voted Bob Barr, but lest I digress)


Hersh - digression noted. You would have enjoyed the dinnertime discussions in our house the last few weeks as my oldest son and I weighed the relative merits of Barr and Baldwin.

On an unrelated note it seems the McCain camp may be in the intial stages of cannibalizing Palin for the loss. Entirely predictable.
Posted By: Athanasius The L Re: well it's over! - 11/07/08 03:42 AM
Originally Posted by ebed melech
Originally Posted by MrsMW
So rural people are republican because of ignorance? WOW! I didn't know city folk are the only smart people out there. Then again I live close to the rural folks so maybe their ignorance has rubbed off on me.


It is a shame that many (not all) who espouse liberalism act elitist towards those of us who are conservatives. It is a mental construct that they use to explain all behavior which does not align with their "enlightened" views:

"Obviously you must be ignorant farm hands if you do not agree with me!"

Unfortunately, sometimes elitism becomes the substitute for substantive and rational debate on the issues.


Father Deacon Daniel:

I basically agree with your post. I would only want to balance it with the fact that there are many (thought not all) conservatives who also take a very elitist attitude towards liberals. I have encountered two stripes of this. There are the morally elitist conservatives, who insist that liberals are the worst of the wicked, and there are also the intellectually elitist conservatives who insist that all liberals are idiots.

Ryan
Posted By: stormshadow Re: well it's over! - 11/07/08 04:33 AM
AJK, you stated:
"But the choice is not just simply one evil or another"

I was pretty sure that was inferred in my post.

I wasn't going for a Masters dissertation, just a quick follow-up to Melkite's post. You certainly didn't have to 'dumb down' my comment. I assure you, I put much more thought into my decisions than most.
Posted By: ebed melech Re: well it's over! - 11/07/08 06:22 AM
Originally Posted by Athanasius The L
Originally Posted by ebed melech
Originally Posted by MrsMW
So rural people are republican because of ignorance? WOW! I didn't know city folk are the only smart people out there. Then again I live close to the rural folks so maybe their ignorance has rubbed off on me.


It is a shame that many (not all) who espouse liberalism act elitist towards those of us who are conservatives. It is a mental construct that they use to explain all behavior which does not align with their "enlightened" views:

"Obviously you must be ignorant farm hands if you do not agree with me!"

Unfortunately, sometimes elitism becomes the substitute for substantive and rational debate on the issues.


Father Deacon Daniel:

I basically agree with your post. I would only want to balance it with the fact that there are many (thought not all) conservatives who also take a very elitist attitude towards liberals. I have encountered two stripes of this. There are the morally elitist conservatives, who insist that liberals are the worst of the wicked, and there are also the intellectually elitist conservatives who insist that all liberals are idiots.

Ryan


Yes - pride is not the sole domain of one political tendency. How I long for a Catholic Party...!
Posted By: ajk Re: well it's over! - 11/07/08 07:12 AM
Originally Posted by stormshadow
AJK, you stated:
"But the choice is not just simply one evil or another"

I was pretty sure that was inferred in my post.


Yes, I should have been clearer:

But the choice is not just simply one evil or another, more or less equal in proportion and therefore canceling each other out.

Originally Posted by stormshadow
You certainly didn't have to 'dumb down' my comment.
This was never even remotely my intention. My comments were directed to a large extent to posts in the closed thread that I linked.
Posted By: Athanasius The L Re: well it's over! - 11/07/08 01:39 PM
Originally Posted by ebed melech
Originally Posted by Athanasius The L
Originally Posted by ebed melech
[quote=MrsMW]So rural people are republican because of ignorance? WOW! I didn't know city folk are the only smart people out there. Then again I live close to the rural folks so maybe their ignorance has rubbed off on me.


[qoute]It is a shame that many (not all) who espouse liberalism act elitist towards those of us who are conservatives. It is a mental construct that they use to explain all behavior which does not align with their "enlightened" views:

"Obviously you must be ignorant farm hands if you do not agree with me!"

Unfortunately, sometimes elitism becomes the substitute for substantive and rational debate on the issues.


Father Deacon Daniel:

I basically agree with your post. I would only want to balance it with the fact that there are many (thought not all) conservatives who also take a very elitist attitude towards liberals. I have encountered two stripes of this. There are the morally elitist conservatives, who insist that liberals are the worst of the wicked, and there are also the intellectually elitist conservatives who insist that all liberals are idiots.

Ryan


Quote
Yes - pride is not the sole domain of one political tendency. How I long for a Catholic Party...!


I would love to have a Catholic Party, or I would be thrilled by a party committed to principles shared by Orthodox, Catholic, and Protestants. A party committed to the inherent dignity of all human life, the common good, subsidiarity, and solidarity (the four core principles of Catholic social teaching) would transcend the categories of conservative and liberal.

Ryan
Posted By: Alice Re: well it's over! - 11/07/08 03:00 PM
I think that maybe this thread has run its course...I am afraid of how it is developing...therefore, I am going to close it...

Alice, Moderator
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