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Pelosi: Free Will Trumps Catholic Church's Pro-Life Teachings on

Posted By: Pani Rose

Pelosi: Free Will Trumps Catholic Church's Pro-Life Teachings on - 12/29/09 10:22 PM

God have mercy on us all!

Washington, DC (LifeNews.com) -- The rift between House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and the Catholic Church will likely grow thanks to new comments the abortion advocate made. Pelosi said in a new interview that the "free will" of women wanting abortions outweighs pro-life Catholic teachings.

Newsweek's Eleanor Clift conducted a year-end interview with Pelosi.

The conversation turned to the topic of abortion and health care and Pelosi blasted the Catholic bishops for their opposition to the pro-abortion bill.

She tells Clift it was frustrating that Catholic bishops "were not willing to accept what we know to be a fact" -- that the "public option" would supposedly not violate a ban on federally-funded abortions.

Then, as Clift asks about her "brushes" with the church, Pelosi drops a bomb.

"I have some concerns about the church's position respecting a woman's right to choose," Pelosi responds. "I am a practicing Catholic, although they're probably not too happy about that. But it is my faith."

"I practically mourn this difference of opinion because I feel what I was raised to believe is consistent with what I profess, and that is that we are all endowed with a free will and a responsibility to answer for our actions," she continues. "And that women should have that opportunity to exercise their free will."

Pelosi also told Newsweek she doesn't appreciate being lobbied on abortion but understands her local Catholic officials will try to persuade her.

"When I speak to my archbishop in San Francisco and his role is to try to change my mind on the subject, well then he is exercising his pastoral duty to me as one of his flock," she said. "When they call me on the phone here to talk about, or come to see me about an issue, that's a different story. Then they are advocates, and I am a public official, and I have a different responsibility."

The comments will likely throw fuel on the fire of public opinion within pro-life and Catholic circles that Pelosi is well-outside the mainstream -- but she tells the pro-abortion Newsweek reporter she doesn't care.

"I don't choose to spend my time countering perceptions and mischaracterizations that the other side puts out there. I choose to do my job. Because we are effective, I continue to be the target," Pelosi contends.

Pelosi also talked about how she discussed the abortion funding in the health care bill with a Catholic leader.

"I talked to one of the cardinals. I said to him that I believe that what we are doing honors the principles we talked about: we want to pass a health-care bill, we want it to be abortion neutral, and we want it to [have] no federal funding [for abortion], which is the law. And we believe that our language does that," she recounted. "They said, 'We believe that it does not.' I said, let's sit down at the table and our lawyers can compare language."

For Pelosi, her motive appears to be more about winning than her reputation and standing.

"I don't care how popular I am. I'm not putting myself out there to run for higher office. I just [want to] make sure that we win the election next year," she said.
The new comments follow on the heels of Pelosi thanking God that the Senate health care bill funds abortion
Pelosi
Posted By: The young fogey

Re: Pelosi: Free Will Trumps Catholic Church's Pro-Life Teachings on - 12/29/09 11:52 PM

Functionally she's a Protestant. The difference between her and the legions of Bad Catholics with wrong views, whom the church doesn't micromanage, is she is in a position to cause scandal.
Posted By: Pilgrim66

Re: Pelosi: Free WillTrumps Catholic Church's Pro-Life Teachings on - 12/30/09 12:03 AM

I wonder what her definition of a "Practicing Catholic" is? One thing you have to love about this country is how so many people profess the Catholic faith but then try to mold it into their own vision of how it should be. Then they have the nerve when someone actually challenges them with the fact that their stance is counter to what the church believes, they somehow find a way to make it seem that they are the ones who are in fact correct.
Posted By: aramis

Re: Pelosi: Free WillTrumps Catholic Church's Pro-Life Teachings on - 12/30/09 12:20 AM

Well, she's just latae sentence excommunicated herself. Time for her bishop to grow a pair and formalize it.
Posted By: theophan

Re: Pelosi: Free WillTrumps Catholic Church's Pro-Life Teachings on - 12/30/09 12:23 AM

Quote
I wonder what . . . a "Practicing Catholic" is?


Pilgrim:

Christ is Born!! Glorify Him!!

I've wondered the same thing and I've come up with a working definition--not finished and I invite your own input.

Like an athlete who is "practicing" to be a football or basketball player, but isn't quite there yet, a "Practicing Catholic" is one who is working at it, but hasn't quite made the full commitment yet. Something like the people Our lord says He will "vomit out of My Mouth." Does that work for you? Works for me.

BOB
Posted By: Pilgrim66

Re: Pelosi: Free WillTrumps Catholic Church's Pro-Life Teachings on - 12/30/09 12:42 AM

[quote=aramis]Well, she's just latae sentence excommunicated herself. Time for her bishop to grow a pair and formalize it. [/quote]

Unfortunately I think the fear of excommunication does not carry the weight it once did. My question is if she is a practicing Catholic does this mean she attends mass and receives communion every Sunday? And if so should the bishop speak to her priest as well?
Posted By: Pilgrim66

Re: Pelosi: Free WillTrumps Catholic Church's Pro-Life Teachings on - 12/30/09 12:44 AM

Originally Posted by theophan
Quote
I wonder what . . . a "Practicing Catholic" is?


Pilgrim:

Christ is Born!! Glorify Him!!

I've wondered the same thing and I've come up with a working definition--not finished and I invite your own input.

Like an athlete who is "practicing" to be a football or basketball player, but isn't quite there yet, a "Practicing Catholic" is one who is working at it, but hasn't quite made the full commitment yet. Something like the people Our lord says He will "vomit out of My Mouth." Does that work for you? Works for me.

BOB




Perhaps in this case "practice makes imperfect"?
Posted By: Terry Bohannon

Re: Pelosi: Free WillTrumps Catholic Church's Pro-Life Teachings on - 12/30/09 12:15 PM

Or "Practice once to master"
Posted By: sielos ilgesys

Re: Pelosi: Free WillTrumps Catholic Church's Pro-Life Teachings on - 12/30/09 01:26 PM

Apparently somehow Madame Speaker has become Pope, Ecumenical Council and the very personification of the Magisterium itself. Gee, how'd I miss the memo on that?
Posted By: theophan

Re: Pelosi: Free WillTrumps Catholic Church's Pro-Life Teachings on - 12/30/09 02:33 PM

Quote
Unfortunately I think the fear of excommunication does not carry the weight it once did.


Christ is Born!! Glorify Him!!

Pilgrim:

I think you've hit the nail on the head. And I think it is linked to the fading belief in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

My early training was that excommunication had eternal consequences. Die in that state and you had no hope. Why? Because communion is the relationship with Christ that the believer has through the Church and the sacramental life. It seems to have had a very early understanding in the Fathers. Now it seems that no one makes much of it. Even people who have excommunicated themselves seem to think they have a "right" to approach.

I have a long article about what the Orthodox Church believes about Holy Communion and what she expects. It's very much what my early training was. But it is so far removed from what things seem to be in the Catholic Church today that priests I've shown it too have recoiled, calling it too strict.

There's one more way to llok at this "free will" thing. We have the "free will" to accept or reject the revelation Christ gave and entrusted to His Church. Nothing wrong about that. But that it has eternal consequences, now that is, apparently, something that Madame Speaker hasn't thought about.

BOB
Posted By: PeterPeter

Re: Pelosi: Free WillTrumps Catholic Church's Pro-Life Teachings on - 12/30/09 03:13 PM

Originally Posted by theophan
I think you've hit the nail on the head. And I think it is linked to the fading belief in the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist.

My early training was that excommunication had eternal consequences. Die in that state and you had no hope.


I was taught that you cannot die excommunicated, since the Church has authority only over the living.

So every kind of excommunication, including the officially declared or imposed is automatically lifted in the moment of death, or rather at the moment of death you're judged directly by God.

So that somebody died without his excommunication (of whatever kind) officially lifted or without repentance for the cause of excommunication, doesn't automatically mean that he is damned, or that he was really excommunicated, because the Church is not infallible in juridical or penitential matters. Excommunication as a juridical or penitential matter doesn't bind our conscience, but acts only, so it's not a sin not to believe that certain person is really excommunicated.

Excommunication therefore is something like mortal sin that can be absolved (depending on the cause) only by certain priests, usually under condition of significant penance.

My opinion is that there is of course strong link between lack of belief in real presence, lack of belief in eternal damnation, malformed conscience, pride etc. and the lack of fear of excommunication, but I think the most important problem is how the excommunicated are handled, that is how the faithful and clergy acts towards them.

If the faithful are not obliged to abstain from intercourse with the excommunicated even in non-religious, civil matters, that is there's no social ostracism, and no one is going to throw them out of the church then who cares anyway...
Posted By: Stephanos I

Re: Pelosi: Free WillTrumps Catholic Church's Pro-Life Teachings on - 12/30/09 06:36 PM

If her Bishop had any courage and sense of pastoral responsibility he would publicy excommunicate her.
God help her if she shows up in this parish of her constituency.
Stephanos I
Posted By: StuartK

Re: Pelosi: Free WillTrumps Catholic Church's Pro-Life Teachings on - 12/31/09 12:37 AM

We excommunicate ourselves by our thoughts, words and deeds. That is, we separate ourselves from the Body of Christ. The Church does no more than take cognizance of instances where these thoughts, words, and deeds have become so blatant that the Church must act to maintain its discipline, as well as to warn the person of the danger to his soul. In cases where the Church does not act, and a person continues to receive the Eucharist despite breaking the unity of faith that makes Communion efficacious, he receives for judgment and condemnation, not for eternal life. There is nothing that we, or the Church, can do to alter that fact. And that is why formal excommunication should not be viewed as punishment but as therapy for a sickness of the soul.
Posted By: Chuck

Re: Pelosi: Free WillTrumps Catholic Church's Pro-Life Teachings on - 12/31/09 03:21 AM

We do not really know the impact of a public excommunication on these politicians themselves, on the remainder of the laity, and on the credibility of the bishops' teaching authority. When did the last public excommunication of a public official occur in the USA? While there is no shortage of scandalous candidates, our bishops have manufactured all manner of justifications for avoiding this step. The thing that seems clear to me is that their tepid response to scandal and outright disobedience over the past 30+ years has not worked and has contributed to getting us where we are today.
Posted By: Pani Rose

Re: Pelosi: Free WillTrumps Catholic Church's Pro-Life Teachings on - 12/31/09 04:17 AM

To me, in my understanding, it may be well that each abortion that occurs after the fact, if this goes through, will leave an indelable mark on her soul. That would be exactly because she is a leader of people.

Scripture says to render unto Ceaser what is Ceasars, and render unto God what is God. These little ones who loose their life because of money, and I sometimes think in the back of it, is a bloody sacrifice to the darkness of this world, these little ones are God's not Ceaser's.
Posted By: Dr. Eric

Re: Pelosi: Free WillTrumps Catholic Church's Pro-Life Teachings on - 12/31/09 04:51 AM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ym6Qgj55e3Y
Posted By: aramis

Re: Pelosi: Free WillTrumps Catholic Church's Pro-Life Teachings on - 12/31/09 09:57 AM

She's said in the past she has no fear of being excommunicated. Really, tho', she should be very publicly excommunicated; big press conference and all, for apostasy and teaching heresy as a public figure. Which, in essence, is what she has taken to doing. Perhaps she'll then go to one of the schismatic groups that accepts wymynpriests and abortifacients and abortions... things that I'm certain Madame Speaker Pelosi would approve of. (Because she's spoken positively of them in the past.)

The church needs to protect itself from the heterodox like Madame Speaker. The tools of so doing are public recognition of her excommunication, and an equally public reservation of the lifting of it to either the episcopal conference or the Apostolic See.

Punishment is not the effect of excommunication; protecting the church by marking those who are clearly not to be listened to is. The punishment for the laetae sentence excommunication is that it's a mortal sin that causes same... and until that sin is forgiven, no other sins may be either... and the poor soul is bound to hell, for the power to hold and loose is the power of the Church and of Peter, and by subsidiarity, the bishops.

Once recognized by the church, formal excommunication is the tool to protect the innocent of the faith from the devil's accomplices (witting or unwitting) who spread heterodoxis and heteropraxis. It's also the binding of an individual to be barred from confession until they admit the error of that sin. Only a perfect act of contrition (which, by definition MUST include that sin for which they were excommunicated) provides any hope for salvation.

By reconciliation with the church, the easier and better method, confession and absolution, is once again available; the lifting of the public excommunication is the first step in that road to healing the damage of heteropraxis &/or heterodoxis.
Posted By: StuartK

Re: Pelosi: Free WillTrumps Catholic Church's Pro-Life Teachings on - 12/31/09 10:43 AM

The Talmud is a little more severe: those guilty of "leading the people astray" are to be put to death. The Palestinian Talmud gives this as the reason Jesus was killed.
Posted By: PeterPeter

Re: Pelosi: Free WillTrumps Catholic Church's Pro-Life Teachings on - 12/31/09 11:45 AM

Originally Posted by Chuck
When did the last public excommunication of a public official occur in the USA?


When did the last public excommunication of a public official occur elsewhere?
Posted By: StuartK

Re: Pelosi: Free WillTrumps Catholic Church's Pro-Life Teachings on - 12/31/09 12:05 PM

When his bishop told Patrick Kennedy not to present himself for communion, that was, by definition, an excommunication. What, exactly, does everybody think excommunication means?
Posted By: PeterPeter

Re: Pelosi: Free WillTrumps Catholic Church's Pro-Life Teachings on - 12/31/09 12:08 PM

I was referring to a public solemnly promulgated anathema.
Posted By: Pilgrim66

Re: Pelosi: Free WillTrumps Catholic Church's Pro-Life Teachings on - 12/31/09 12:51 PM

[quote=StuartK]When his bishop told Patrick Kennedy not to present himself for communion, that was, by definition, an excommunication. What, exactly, does everybody think excommunication means?[/quote]


Unfortunately one of the problems with our media saturated society is the fact that a high profile person will be told this yet they still have the ability to flaunt their position in the public eye and to use that media to their own ends to make it seem that they are in the right. And another unfortunate thing is that it seems that the media delights in ridiculing the church in any way that it can and unfortunately many people can be easily swayed into going contrary to what the church teaches. I remember in Pittsburgh when Kerry was running for president there was a big deal made of the fact that because of his views he was not to receive communion yet when he was in Pittsburgh he attended mass and had no problem going to communion and the priest had no problem giving him communion. And the media took great delight in the fact that he attended mass while in Pittsburgh and received communion.
Posted By: StuartK

Re: Pelosi: Free WillTrumps Catholic Church's Pro-Life Teachings on - 12/31/09 12:54 PM

That would be cool, with bell, book and candle, too. But only if it was televised nationally in prime time.

Maybe the Latin Church needs something like the reading of the Synodikon on the Sunday of Orthodoxy, to remind itself of what it believes and what it condemns.
Posted By: PeterPeter

Re: Pelosi: Free WillTrumps Catholic Church's Pro-Life Teachings on - 12/31/09 01:24 PM

Originally Posted by StuartK
Maybe the Latin Church needs something like the reading of the Synodikon on the Sunday of Orthodoxy, to remind itself of what it believes and what it condemns.


That's a very good idea.
Posted By: theophan

Re: Pelosi: Free WillTrumps Catholic Church's Pro-Life Teachings on - 12/31/09 01:58 PM

Quote
Really, tho', she should be very publicly excommunicated; big press conference and all, for apostasy and teaching heresy as a public figure.


aramis:

Christ is Born!! Glorify Him!!

The only problem I can see is some attorney taking a case like this on a contingency basis and successfully suing in court for libel. Unfortunately, you can't label someone in public in the secular arena without paying a secular price. And we call know how much secular price the Catholic Church has paid in the past decade. I think the only thing that's left is for the Judgment Seat from which there is no appeal, though it leaves the average person thinking there is no penalty for defying the Church's teaching.

BOB
Posted By: aramis

Re: Pelosi: Free WillTrumps Catholic Church's Pro-Life Teachings on - 12/31/09 09:22 PM

Last public excommunication I recall was Theresa Obermeyer, PhD, in the Archdiocese of Anchorage. I don't recall why.

I do know she has been refused communion; I have, in the past, been instructed by the pastor of the Roman parish I was then a member of, case by case, to refuse her communion; he immediately pulled her aside before it became needful to do so.

This alone exemplifies why the Roman church needs more deacons and priests, and fewer lay ministers; by canon law, lay EMHC's may not refuse persons admission to communion; priests and deacons can, may, and if someone is known to be under excommunication, must.

Bob: then let it be done by the Comittee for the Defense of the Faith. That is the CDF's job, really. It also places the acting agent outside the bounds of US law. (It also then forces her to deal with the apostolic see for lifting of it.)
Posted By: theophan

Re: Pelosi: Free WillTrumps Catholic Church's Pro-Life Teachings on - 12/31/09 10:15 PM

Quote
. . . let it be done by the . . . (Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith) . . . places the acting agent outside the bounds of US law.


aramis:

Christ is Born!! Glorify Him!!

A good point. I was just hinking out loud since there is an attorney in my area who delights in suing the Church. He's not Catholic and just loves to take the Church down whenever he can and for whatever reason he can.

BOB
Posted By: Slavipodvizhnik

Re: Pelosi: Free WillTrumps Catholic Church's Pro-Life Teachings on - 12/31/09 10:31 PM

It would appear to me the the hands of the Church are tied.
Frau Reichsleiter Pelosi seems, by any reasonable standard to be in direct conflict with the teachings of the Church. To NOT excommunicate her is offensive to those who remain faithful to the teachings.

Alexandr
Posted By: aramis

Re: Pelosi: Free WillTrumps Catholic Church's Pro-Life Teachings on - 12/31/09 10:42 PM

Originally Posted by theophan
Quote
. . . let it be done by the . . . (Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith) . . . places the acting agent outside the bounds of US law.


aramis:

Christ is Born!! Glorify Him!!

A good point. I was just hinking out loud since there is an attorney in my area who delights in suing the Church. He's not Catholic and just loves to take the Church down whenever he can and for whatever reason he can.

BOB


Sounds like the bishop should find another shark to sue him for harassment... wink
Posted By: theophan

Re: Pelosi: Free WillTrumps Catholic Church's Pro-Life Teachings on - 12/31/09 11:49 PM

Quote
To NOT excommunicate her is offensive to those who remain faithful to the teachings.

Alexandr


I have to agree wholeheartedly. But it seems as if the bakcbone to do what one is called to do by ordination is in short supply. There are those who think that this is "heavy handed" and that the "spirit of Vatican II" (a much overworked phrase) demands that we not do such an "outdated thing."

BOB
Posted By: theophan

Re: Pelosi: Free WillTrumps Catholic Church's Pro-Life Teachings on - 12/31/09 11:52 PM

Quote
Sounds like the bishop should find another shark to sue him for harassment...


Unfortunately, the things he brings to the bar are things that have been in the media for some years. The atty seems to have a knack for finding people with the same accusations time and again.

BOB
Posted By: Administrator

Re: Pelosi: Free WillTrumps Catholic Church's Pro-Life Teachings on - 01/01/10 04:08 AM

Originally Posted by Slavipodvizhnik
It would appear to me the the hands of the Church are tied.
Frau Reichsleiter Pelosi seems, by any reasonable standard to be in direct conflict with the teachings of the Church. To NOT excommunicate her is offensive to those who remain faithful to the teachings.

Alexandr

Those among us - be they Speaker Pelosi or the average Joe - who either directly work to keep abortion legal, force taxpayers to pay for abortions, or vote for political candidates of any party who support abortion are like Frau Reichsleiter. Over 40 million Americans have been murdered by abortion since 1973. All have the blood of the innocents on their hands.

I pray that Speaker Pelosi's bishop has a dialogue with her very much like the dialogue that Bishop Tobin of Providence had with Representative Patrick Kennedy (link). I pray that she reforms her ideas to match those of the Church, and that the medicine of excommunication not be necessary.

Let us pray for Speaker Pelosi - for our president and all our elected officials, and for all those who serve in government, that they respect life and work to protect it.
Posted By: Thomas the Seeker

Re: Pelosi: Free WillTrumps Catholic Church's Pro-Life Teachings - 01/02/10 04:15 AM

Originally Posted by Administrator

Let us pray for Speaker Pelosi - for our president and all our elected officials, and for all those who serve in government, that they respect life and work to protect it.


In the Lutheran version of the Litany from the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom we pray "for our public servants, for the government and those who protect us, that they may be strengthened in every good deed, let us pray to the Lord..."

I have always understood this to mean that when those entrusted with the authority of government fail to protect or engage in deeds that are evil, we are praying for their restraint, repentance, conversion, and control.
Posted By: Epiphanius

Re: Pelosi: Free WillTrumps Catholic Church's Pro-Life Teachings - 01/02/10 12:05 PM

Thomas,

Good to hear from you!

Earlier in this thread it was stated of Pelosi, "Functionally she's a Protestant," which I thought was rather insulting to Protestants. However, I'm sure it was intended as meaning someone who feels free to interpret Scripture as they see fit.

Posted By: Father Borislav

Re: Pelosi: Free Will Trumps Catholic Church's Pro-Life Teachings on - 01/02/10 01:23 PM

Originally Posted by The young fogey
Functionally she's a Protestant. The difference between her and the legions of Bad Catholics with wrong views, whom the church doesn't micromanage, is she is in a position to cause scandal.


No, I disagree. A good Protestant will be just as strongly against abortion as a good Catholic or Orthodox Christian.

I'm afraid she is something else altogether...
Posted By: Pani Rose

Re: Pelosi: Free WillTrumps Catholic Church's Pro-Life Teachings - 01/02/10 02:27 PM

Originally Posted by Thomas the Seeker
Originally Posted by Administrator

Let us pray for Speaker Pelosi - for our president and all our elected officials, and for all those who serve in government, that they respect life and work to protect it.


In the Lutheran version of the Litany from the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom we pray "for our public servants, for the government and those who protect us, that they may be strengthened in every good deed, let us pray to the Lord..."

I have always understood this to mean that when those entrusted with the authority of government fail to protect or engage in deeds that are evil, we are praying for their restraint, repentance, conversion, and control.


I always wondered about that, that it would involve conversion of heart.
Posted By: Stephanos I

Re: Pelosi: Free WillTrumps Catholic Church's Pro-Life Teachings - 01/02/10 05:47 PM

Why beat around the bush (excuse the pun) I pray for their outright conversion and that they would be repentant. And I do that in the public liturgy of the Church, even when they are present. You can bet it causes a few ruffles but then again I am not out to be a pleaser of men.
Stephanos I
Posted By: Thomas the Seeker

Re: Pelosi: Free WillTrumps Catholic Church's Pro-Life Teachings - 01/02/10 10:42 PM

Originally Posted by Pani Rose
Originally Posted by Thomas the Seeker
Originally Posted by Administrator

Let us pray for Speaker Pelosi - for our president and all our elected officials, and for all those who serve in government, that they respect life and work to protect it.


In the Lutheran version of the Litany from the liturgy of St. John Chrysostom we pray "for our public servants, for the government and those who protect us, that they may be strengthened in every good deed, let us pray to the Lord..."

I have always understood this to mean that when those entrusted with the authority of government fail to protect or engage in deeds that are evil, we are praying for their restraint, repentance, conversion, and control.


I always wondered about that, that it would involve conversion of heart.


Indeed, it does. I am quite fond of what Luther wrote to his barber, Peter of Wittenberg, "A simple way to pray" in which he explains each section of the Lord's Prayer. Regarding "Thy Kingdom come" he wrote Peter:

Dear Lord God and Father, convert and control. Convert those who are still to become children and members of your kingdom, that together we may serve you in your kingdom in the right faith and true love and pass from this kingdom begun here to your everlasting kingdom. Control those who would not withdraw their might and means from disturbing your kingdom. May they be dethroned and in humiliation stop molesting your kingdom.

Posted By: Pani Rose

Re: Pelosi: Free WillTrumps Catholic Church's Pro-Life Teachings - 01/02/10 11:30 PM

Originally Posted by Stephanos I
Why beat around the bush (excuse the pun) I pray for their outright conversion and that they would be repentant. And I do that in the public liturgy of the Church, even when they are present. You can bet it causes a few ruffles but then again I am not out to be a pleaser of men.
Stephanos I
AMEN!
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