www.byzcath.org
Posted By: Rybak Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/18/12 01:01 AM
OK, I thought someone would have posted about this by now. My turn I guess. Here goes:

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2012/08/17/judge-finds-anti-putin-rock-band-guilty-hooliganism/

Do you think the sentencing was too strict or too lenient? I was horrified when I first heard about their antics at Christ the Savior Cathedral in Moscow. I support punishment for such deviant and grossly inappropriate behavior.

Later on, reading about the sentencing, I saw this other article and was horrified once again:

http://en.ria.ru/society/20120817/175271764.html

Who are these people? Militant atheists? Publicity seekers? Miscellaneous instruments of Evil? Whatever it is, I find it so very disturbing - and especially after all the decades of persecution and terror the churches faced in Russia and Ukraine under the Soviet Union. Lord, have mercy.
Posted By: StuartK Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/18/12 01:06 AM
Some people still don't understand the conception of the Holy Fool, or the purpose of their "antics", or that, by sentencing these girls to prison, Putin's show trial and the Patriarch's endorsement of it, explicitly makes their point: the Church has become a captive of the Russian government once more, a tool of Putin's increasingly tyranical regime.
Posted By: Rybak Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/18/12 01:20 AM
If a shocking display of something like this were to take place at St. Peters in Rome, don't you think the perpetrators would be found guilty, at the least, of criminal trespass and sentenced accordingly?
Posted By: StuartK Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/18/12 12:37 PM
Sure. And what is the penalty for criminal trespass? Maybe thirty days and a fine. But criminal trespass is not the penalty brought against these women, who are charged with a crime that makes insulting the Church an act of lese majeste and an attack on the Russian state. The Patriarch did not help his own cause by not showing any indication of Christian forbearance or interceding for mercy on their behalf, but rather crying for Putin to throw the book at them (but, then, what can one expect from a Patriarch who called the thug Vladimir Putin "a gift from God"?)

If the purpose of the Pussy Band was to highlight the incestuous relationship between the Orthodox Church and the Putin regime, it certainly succeeded. If the ensuing Pussy Riots were intended to show the intolerance and growing authoritarianism of the Putin Regime, they also succeeded.

Overall, the effect of the demonstration, the riots, the trial and the verdict was to undermine the legitimacy of the Putin regime and the moral authority of the Orthodox Church. In both cases, the wound was self-inflicted; the overreaction of both Putin and the Church does nothing except make it seem as though they are deathly afraid of four little girls.
Posted By: Alice Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/18/12 02:19 PM
This was a good sentence. The very fact that they have named themselves with the derogatory and sexual name which they have shows exactly what they are.

No holy fools have ever displayed their breasts to clerics or in public nor have they engaged in the sexual antics these girls are known to have engaged and displayed. Lord have mercy! How can anyone seriously think this??

Personally, I think they are not fools, but sadly, like so many youth in the world, tools of the evil one--not because of their political views, which are their perogative, but because of their immorality and lack of respect for the holy.

We have surpassed every boundary of decency and civility in the West. Society has suffered enough through the antics of Madonna and her ilk.

Good for Russia to not put up with this immorality and disgrace blaspheming a church! They have backbone. We either pat such scandalous behaviour on the back or celebrate it. In my opinion, WE in the liberal and immoral West are sick; not Russia!

Posted By: byzanTN Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/18/12 03:47 PM
I am no fan of Putin. It seems strange the ROC has not learned the hard way to distance itself from the government. However, did anyone note these youths desecrated a church and were way over the top in terms of decent, civilized forms of protest?
Posted By: Rybak Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/18/12 04:01 PM
My old friend, Abbot Tryphon of All Merciful Savior Orthodox Monastery has some perspective to offer us on the matter:

http://morningoffering.blogspot.com/

No Such Thing as Sacrilege in the West


Western media coverage of the Russian political organization (hardly a musical group) known as "Pussy Riot" has been one of the most distorted news coverages of recent memory. Now that they have been found guilty of hooliganism and sentenced to 2 years in prison, it is worth taking a closer look at actually what happened.


This whole ugly incident has been made to appear in both Western media, and the White House, as having to do with freedom of speech and the right for these young woman to attack the evil Vladimir Putin, seen as a KGB agent who'd like to silence all dissent. That American singer Madonna would come out in full support of Pussy Riot during her recent Moscow concert, has only added to the fuel. Yet is it any wonder that a woman whose whole career has been filled with sacrilegious usage of Christian imagery would now defend her fellow travelers, the Pussy Riot? Can Christians forget that Madonna opened a concert with herself hanging on a cross, in mockery of Christ's holy crucifixion?


This Madonna woman even had the audacity to call the holy Patriarch corrupt. How dare she step foot in Russia, a land whose very soil is filled with the blood of holy martyrs who died under the previous demonic attack on Orthodox Christianity, the Soviets. She is a fellow traveler of a new breed of Christ haters, whose support comes from "informational totalitarianism," the modern, Christianaphobic, Western media.


Most of what we've read about this infamous moment, when the Pussy Riot women ascended the steps leading to the iconostasis, clad in bright clothing and masks, screaming out profane "poetry" and defiling the main cathedral of the Moscow Patriarchate, was reported by Western media as "an attack on Putin". It was not an attack on Putin, but an attack on the Patriarch and the Church.


Wasn't it enough that the people in the streets of Moscow have had to be subjected to profane language delivered with music from the depths of hell, yet the West can not see the need for swift and decisive legal action? Two years in prison for such an act of defilement of Christ the Saviour Cathedral seems hardly sufficient, in my mind, to fit the crime. Better that they should have been sentenced to two years hard labor.


And then there are those who would have us believe (including the Pussy Riot girls, of course), that we should now offer Christian forgiveness. Yet as a Christian I believe repentance must come before forgiveness, and I am praying that two years in a Russian prison will be time sufficient for these young women to take a close look at what they've done, and truly ask forgiveness. I believe the Patriarch himself would come to the prison to hear their confessions and offer holy absolution, if they truly repent. As a Christian I will be praying for these disturbed young women, yet I do not believe letting them off with a light sentence would serve as a warning to others that we must respect the sacred places of everyone. Furthermore, I am quite sure His Holiness Patriarch Kirill has forgiven these young women, but justice must follow course. Civilized societies have laws, and there are consequences for breaking those laws.


Christianity everywhere is being attacked. There is even a movement in the United States to force police and fire chaplains, such as myself, to remove the crosses from our badges, something we will all refuse to do. For too long Christians in the West have sat by in all passivity while symbols of our Christian faith have been mocked and defiled by rock stars and entertainers. We've watched as crosses have been removed from public places and Christ centered prayers forbidden in public places by our courts. Is it any wonder we can't see the justice of the two year sentence that has been handed down in Moscow? Have we even heard what filth was shouted out in the cathedral? Read these words and dare to suggest that this was all about President Putin:


Holy shit, shit, Lord's shit!
Holy shit, shit, Lord's shit!
St. Maria, Virgin, become a feminist...
Patriarch Gundyaev believes in Putin
Bitch, you better believed in God


Madonna said President Vladimir Putin should free the three young female band members from prison and asserted that the Russian Orthodox Church is corrupt, and the Western media ran with it. The Western media totally ignored the real truth that Pussy Riot is simply a publicity-seeking group of "performance artists" who make their living by creating scandals. Would the Western media expect this Madonna woman to suggest President Barack Obama free Americans being tried in an American court? No American president would are try to intervene in an independent court decision, just as President Putin would dare not. The myth that Putin is anything but the strong leader Russia needs at this period in time is just that, a myth.


The truth is, Pussy Riot actually did not say a word against President Putin during their February "punk prayer" at Christ the Savior Cathedral. They just danced feverishly in the cathedral's solea, kicking up their legs, screaming blasphemous profanity and defiling a sacred place for Orthodox Christians. If this defilement had taken place in an American synagogue or in an American Muslim mosque, you can well bet the media and the White House would have responded differently.

If we think this is the end of the attacks on Orthodox Christianity, think again. Activists of the Ukrainian feminist group Femen use a chainsaw to cut down an Orthodox cross, erected to the memory of victims of the political repression in Kiev.



With love in Christ,
Abbot Tryphon
Posted By: StuartK Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/18/12 04:32 PM
The good Father Abbot himself forgets about the true nature of the Holy Fool, whose job it is to shock and outrage the complacent, within the Church and without. Jesus himself committed an act of sacrilege when He chased the money changers out of the Temple. The good Abbot would probably among the outraged members of the Sanhedrin.

The simple truth is, two decades after the fall of the Soviet Union, the Church of Moscow is corrupt. Its relationship with the secular government is too chummy. It has not stood up for truth when truth was inconvenient to the government, on whom the Church increasingly relies for support. In so doing, the Church of Moscow surrenders its moral authority and loses its ability to act as a transformative force in Russia. Unless it does repent, it's doomed to becoming the servant of the state, and not of Christ.

The Holy Abbot is here also guilty not only of carrying water for Putin, but also of a degree of intellectual dishonesty by conflating the actions of Pussy Riot, which were an overtly political statement, and those of a feminist group in Ukraine, which had completely different motives.

Father Taft has long noted that objectivity is sorely lacking within some Orthodox circles, and that this is a "Western" trait that Orthodoxy would do well to adopt as its own. Articles like this merely confirm the truth of his words.
Posted By: StuartK Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/18/12 04:35 PM
Quote
No holy fools have ever displayed their breasts to clerics or in public nor have they engaged in the sexual antics these girls are known to have engaged and displayed. Lord have mercy! How can anyone seriously think this??


Holy fools have been know to gallivant naked (or next to it), to rant, to insult both public and Church officials, and to fling poo at them in a manner familiar to all who visit the primate house at the zoo. The whole point of the fool is to outrage sensibilities. Pussy Riot seems to have worked on yours pretty well.

Stop being so "churchy", and focus on what they are saying. Unless, of course, you like Patriarch Kiril believe that "Vladimir Putin is a gift from God"?

For a useful history of Holy Fools, see S.A. Ivanov, Holy Fools in Byzantium and Beyond (Oxford Studies in Byzantium) 2006.
Posted By: Lawrence Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/18/12 04:46 PM

Vladimir Putin and the Russian Orthodox Church HAVE both asked for leniency in the sentencing. They have 10 days to appeal, and could possibly recieve a much lighter sentence.

Personally, I agree with the court alot more than I could with the many Western Pop stars, who will not even acknowledge that the women were guilty of anything. It should be noted that supporters of the band in Eastern Europe have committed serious provacations against both Orthodox and Catholics.

Posted By: chadrook Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/18/12 04:59 PM
Nihilism is best done by professionals. Iggy Pop

I think I would worry more about their supporters than them.
I was sent this link earlier today

Mercouris Blog
Posted By: Rybak Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/18/12 05:39 PM
"Jesus himself committed an act of sacrilege when He chased the money changers out of the Temple."

Stuart, you sound just like a "spirit of Vatican II" Catholic or perhaps a member of LCWR when you say that.

Our Lord, Savior and God, Jesus Christ, committing sacrilege? I don't think so.
Posted By: StuartK Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/18/12 05:48 PM
Sacrilege is in the eye of the beholder. The Pharisees and Sadducees though Christ committed sacrilege and nailed Him to a tree for his impertinence. Christ's message was about the establishment of a new Temple, and of the corruption of the old temple through its acceptance of worldly values. Tell me with a straight face that the hierarchy of the Russian Church today is not corrupt, and has not fallen into the trap of accepting all-to-worldly values.

In the meanwhile, two other perspectives on the case:

Putin vs. the Punk Rockers

and

Putin's PR Blunder

Let us hope that Patriarch Kiril remembers his true master, and likewise cuts his losses by (a) interceding for (as opposed to advocating the strongest possible punishment) for the women; and (b) denouncing attempts by the Putin government to trample upon human rights and human dignity--regardless of the consequences to the earthly establishment of the Russian Orthodox Church.
Posted By: StuartK Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/18/12 05:58 PM
Quote
Hooliganism

1. Hooliganism, that is a gross violation of the public order manifested in patent contempt of society and attended by the use of weapons or articles used as weapons shall be punishable by compulsory works for a term of 180 to 240 hours, or by corrective labour for a term of one to two years, or by deprivation of liberty for a term of up to five years.

2. The same deed committed by a group of persons in a preliminary conspiracy, or by an organised group, or connected with resistance to a representative of authority to any other person who fulfils the duty of protecting the public order or who suppresses the violation of the public order shall be punishable by deprivation of liberty for a term of up to seven years.


In other words, "Hooliganism" is whatever the government says it is ("We know it when we see it") and can be applied to whatever individuals or groups the government finds objectionable at the moment.

I find far more objectionable the idea that some people think it is worse to utter profanities in church, than for the leader of a great Church to openly embrace--and call "a gift from God"--a man who usurps the rights of the people, uses the power of his office to imprison, torture and murder those who oppose him, who engages in corruption on a massive scale for the enrichment of himself and his cronies, simply because that man claims to be a Christian and uses the authority of his office to show personal and financial favor to the Church.

The Putin regime is widely regarded as autocratic, brutal, corrupt and illegitimate within Russia. In the past, it was tolerated because of the Faustian bargain Putin struck with the Russian people--to restore order and a modicum of prosperity, in return for their silence about his methods. Now, however, it is increasingly clear that Putin is not holding up his side of the bargain: the Russian economy is increasingly frail, prosperity is fading, and order is not being maintained. This cannot go on much longer, and when the house of cards collapses, on whose side will the Orthodox Church be? That of the Russian people, claiming their inherent rights and dignity? Or on the side of a man who is "a gift from God"?
Posted By: Latin Catholic Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/18/12 06:19 PM
I think a fine of 50 dollars would be a suitable sentence.
Posted By: StuartK Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/18/12 06:38 PM
That's 1604 rubles.
Posted By: Latin Catholic Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/18/12 06:53 PM
Ok, so make it 1500 rubles, for round numbers. A fine like that would adequately reflect the seriousness of the crime, in my opinion.

It would be slightly less than what a homeowner in my home town would be charged for not keeping the sidewalk ice free, something which might actually cause personal injury.
Posted By: StuartK Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/18/12 08:30 PM
People here who are so quick to accept the official Russian government line on this are remarkably naive regarding government dominance of the news media in Russia.

Those who think these women got a fair trial no little of the Russian "justice" system (I am reminded of the 1943 movie Mission to Moscow, based on the book by U.S. Ambassador to the Soviet Union Joseph Davies; sitting in at the conclusion of Stalin's show trials in 1937, Walther Huston (playing Davies) remarks casually, "Well, they all confessed. That proves they were guilty").

Those who think two years hard labor is a light sentence no nothing of Russian prisons.
Posted By: Rybak Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/18/12 08:54 PM
An excerpt from the Mercouris Blog , linked to earlier:

The “punk prayer” was an obscene parody of the act of Christian worship carried out using excremental language in Russian Orthodoxy’s most important Church in an area just before the sanctuary which contains the Altar access to which is prohibited to all except members of the priesthood. The “punk prayer” contained abuse of the Patriarch, the leader of the Russian Church, calling him a “bitch” (suka) and accusing him of believing in Putin rather than God. The “punk prayer” was carefully planned, the location having obviously been chosen in advance for maximum effect and the form of the “punk prayer” adapted to mimic the order of the Christian service starting with the making of the sign of the cross followed by an obscene prayer to the Virgin (the Theotokos) and ending with a scatological parody of the Sanctus. The “punk prayer” was performed by three young women dressed in skimpy and brightly coloured clothing with bare arms the wearing of which is prohibited in a Russian Orthodox Christian Church and was accompanied by dance and music of a sort also prohibited in a Russian Orthodox Christian Church. The “punk prayer” used offensive and coarse language of a sort that is also prohibited in a Russian Orthodox Church and which Russian Orthodox Christians would be expected to find grossly disrespectful in a house of God. The whole performance was filmed presumably by other members of the group and the film possibly with words added was then uploaded onto YouTube.
Posted By: Alice Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/18/12 11:08 PM
Quote
Stop being so "churchy", and focus on what they are saying. Unless, of course, you like Patriarch Kiril believe that "Vladimir Putin is a gift from God"?



Sorry, I will not stop being so 'churchy' in order to please you..my 'churchiness' happens to sit well with my spiritual closeness to God, and my personal salvation means alot more to me than compromising my beliefs (such as seeing the acts of these misguided girls in the Cathedral as blasphemous and scandalously improper) to please others.

Since you mention it, actually I do infact agree with Patriarch Kiril on his assesment of Vladimir Putin--any leader that helps restore Christianity to an atheist or pagan world is indeed a gift from God (at the particular time), as we 'churchy' individuals tend to see the hand of God and the Divine in all things. It is the very reason the 'churchy' folk in my faith have given such honour to Constantine the Emperor; for he too was a 'gift from God' at that particular time in history (despite his personal shortcomings) after Christians had suffered periods of great persecution in the Roman Empire.
Stuart. Get off of your high and mighty intellectual high horse and shove it! Holy fools, what a load of crap ! Did they go into the churches and utter the filth that these girls did defiling a holy place? I care not if I am tossed off this board and I make no apologies to you or anyone else who holds your views. Why don't you talk about the corruption in our society in the west as well as the stench in your own church?

Viking
Originally Posted by Converted Viking
Stuart. Get off of your high and mighty intellectual high horse and shove it! Holy fools, what a load of crap ! Did they go into the churches and utter the filth that these girls did defiling a holy place? I care not if I am tossed off this board and I make no apologies to you or anyone else who holds your views. Why don't you talk about the corruption in our society in the west as well as the stench in your own church?

Viking


Who's on a "high horse" now?
Posted By: byzanTN Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/19/12 12:09 AM
Stay off of high horses. It's a long way down when you fall. :-)
Posted By: StuartK Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/19/12 12:21 AM
Quote
Did they go into the churches and utter the filth that these girls did defiling a holy place?


Yes, they did. Next question?
Posted By: StuartK Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/19/12 12:31 AM
Quote
Since you mention it, actually I do infact agree with Patriarch Kiril on his assesment of Vladimir Putin--any leader that helps restore Christianity to an atheist or pagan world is indeed a gift from God (at the particular time), as we 'churchy' individuals tend to see the hand of God and the Divine in all things. It is the very reason the 'churchy' folk in my faith have given such honour to Constantine the Emperor; for he too was a 'gift from God' at that particular time in history (despite his personal shortcomings) after Christians had suffered periods of great persecution in the Roman Empire.


I suggest you pay less attention to carefully staged photo ops by Putin and his minions, and more attention to the substance of what is happening in Russia. Restoring Christianity? Putin? Please--the man is a thug, a thief, a murderer, overseeing an increasingly autocratic and kleptocratic state. You think there is a renaissance of Orthodoxy in Russia today?

To quote a Russian Orthodox nun, for most people in Russia, Orthodoxy is a fashion statement--they know nothing of the Tradition, are utterly ignorant of their faith. This is reinforced by a recent survey that found a third of all respondents who identified themselves as Orthodox also said they don't believe in God.

Putin is pushing Russia back into the dark place from which it just recently emerged. Patriarch Kiril, continuing down the path established by his predecessor Alexei II (a decorated colonel of the KGB). They have not only dissipated whatever moral authority the Church might have accrued in the days after the fall of the Soviet Union, by their sycophantic attitude towards Putin they are making the Church an object of contempt.

They have profited materially by their close association with Putin, and maybe garnered a little prestige along the way--but their star is harnessed to Putin's, and his star is setting fast. Unless the Russian Church can regain an independent voice, when Putin goes down, the Church goes down, too. And that would be a tragedy.
Posted By: StuartK Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/19/12 12:32 AM
By the way, I know the Emperor Constantine. Constantine is a friend of mine. Vladimir Putin is no Constantine.
Posted By: StuartK Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/19/12 12:34 AM
Quote
Why don't you talk about the corruption in our society in the west as well as the stench in your own church?


When have I not? I, too, am a Holy Fool, and no respecter of persons or institutions.
This still picture from the video puts it in perspective:
http://cdn.stereogum.com/files/2012/08/Pussy-Riot-608x504.jpg
Originally Posted by StuartK
Quote
Why don't you talk about the corruption in our society in the west as well as the stench in your own church?


When have I not? I, too, am a Holy Fool, and no respecter of persons or institutions.



Really? Please enlighten me.

Viking
Originally Posted by Thomas the Seeker
This still picture from the video puts it in perspective:
http://cdn.stereogum.com/files/2012/08/Pussy-Riot-608x504.jpg


Even more revolting:

[ur]http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images...-goldman/08riot1-goldman-tmagArticle.jpg[/url]
Originally Posted by Thomas the Seeker
Originally Posted by Thomas the Seeker
This still picture from the video puts it in perspective:
http://cdn.stereogum.com/files/2012/08/Pussy-Riot-608x504.jpg


Even more revolting:

[ur]http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images...-goldman/08riot1-goldman-tmagArticle.jpg[/url]



Thomas.

The links do not work, well at least not on my browser. The first one that you sent did work however.

Viking
I just cleared my cache and retested each link--working just fine on a Direcway sattelite connection running Classilla 9.3.0--yes, I'm one of those classic Mac Luddites.
Posted By: EasternRomioi3 Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/19/12 03:29 AM
This whole thing is just stupid. Anyone who would rush into any religious building for any reason and interrupt any sort of gathering simple lacks manners and even a shred of decency. No religion would tolerate this stuff, if this happened in Saudi Arabia, no one would bat an eye, because the regime would just do what it always does.

As for Putin, from what I see, he "appears" to be a dictator. I can't say first hand, I don't live in Russia. But is anyone surprised by that? Russia has always had supreme authority figures. Think back to the old Russian saying "Orthodoxy, Autocracy, Nationality." Orthodoxy is the Russian way, autocracy is the way of their political system, it always has been. The main Russian ethnicity has ruled Russia for ages (if you discount the whole Mongol episode). What do a bunch of feminist musicians think they're going to change? Over 1000 years of Russian autocracy? I don't think so.
Posted By: StuartK Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/19/12 04:38 AM
Quote
As for Putin, from what I see, he "appears" to be a dictator. I can't say first hand, I don't live in Russia. But is anyone surprised by that? Russia has always had supreme authority figures. Think back to the old Russian saying "Orthodoxy, Autocracy, Nationality." Orthodoxy is the Russian way, autocracy is the way of their political system, it always has been. The main Russian ethnicity has ruled Russia for ages (if you discount the whole Mongol episode). What do a bunch of feminist musicians think they're going to change? Over 1000 years of Russian autocracy? I don't think so.


A good example of the soft bigotry of low expectations. "They're just Russians--this is what they deserve".

Also a startling example of historical illiteracy, but I've given up on that--few people come up to my standards these days.
Posted By: StuartK Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/19/12 04:42 AM
Really? Please enlighten me.

At various times, I have been accused on this forum of hating (in no particular order):

The Roman Catholic Church

The Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church

The Orthodox Church (in general)

Bishops (as a group)

The Pope (as a person and as an office)

Russians (as a people)

Russia (as a nation)

Serbs

Croats

Muslims

Christians

Jews

All you have to do is read my archived posts.
Originally Posted by StuartK
Really? Please enlighten me.

At various times, I have been accused on this forum of hating (in no particular order):

The Roman Catholic Church

The Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic Church

The Orthodox Church (in general)

Bishops (as a group)

The Pope (as a person and as an office)

Russians (as a people)

Russia (as a nation)

Serbs

Croats

Muslims

Christians

Jews

All you have to do is read my archived posts.


So you live to p--- everyone off? Nice. I am starting to feel better about myself, I'm not as cranky as I thought I was. Have a nice day.

Viking
Originally Posted by Thomas the Seeker
I just cleared my cache and retested each link--working just fine on a Direcway sattelite connection running Classilla 9.3.0--yes, I'm one of those classic Mac Luddites.


The links seem to be working on my computer now. The Penquin that runs the shop must have gone out for a break.

Viking
Originally Posted by StuartK
Quote
As for Putin, from what I see, he "appears" to be a dictator. I can't say first hand, I don't live in Russia. But is anyone surprised by that? Russia has always had supreme authority figures. Think back to the old Russian saying "Orthodoxy, Autocracy, Nationality." Orthodoxy is the Russian way, autocracy is the way of their political system, it always has been. The main Russian ethnicity has ruled Russia for ages (if you discount the whole Mongol episode). What do a bunch of feminist musicians think they're going to change? Over 1000 years of Russian autocracy? I don't think so.


A good example of the soft bigotry of low expectations. "They're just Russians--this is what they deserve".

Also a startling example of historical illiteracy, but I've given up on that--few people come up to my standards these days.
smirk

Sorry we don't measure up to your standards Stuart. Actually I think the remarks made hit the nail right on the head. As far as your thoughts regarding "soft bigotry" can you honestly say that you yourself have not indulged in this.

Viking
Regarding this whole mess. Good for the Russian Orthodox Church and good for Putin. Nuts on the nay sayers and Alice I agree
with you.

Seraphim/Viking
Posted By: StuartK Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/19/12 12:44 PM
Quote
Actually I think the remarks made hit the nail right on the head. As far as your thoughts regarding "soft bigotry" can you honestly say that you yourself have not indulged in this.


Nope. I judge everybody by the same high and exacting standard. That's why so few measure up.
Posted By: chadrook Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/19/12 11:56 PM
Stuart, Don't forget hating us crazy Old Calenderist.

Finally some clarity on this forum. The MP is not what you think. Christ wants Lambs not sheeple.

Greetings on this day of the Transfiguration.
Posted By: StuartK Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/20/12 01:30 AM
Quote
Stuart, Don't forget hating us crazy Old Calenderist.


Oh, yeah. I forgot. So when are you guys going to get your Typicon in line with the astronomical year?
Posted By: Utroque Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/20/12 01:15 PM
While I agree with Stuart's assessment of the Putin regime and the complicity of the "Third Rome" in its corruption, I hardly think these three young women are Holy Fools. They are, in fact, unbelieving, savvy musical media wonks - nothing holy about their show. Holy Fools prick our conscience. I'm afraid the their message got lost in the revulsion most believers felt by their choice of venue. Putin and the Patriarch lost, too, by making more of the event than it deserved. A trial? They should have been slapped on the wrist and sent home crying months ago. Naughty girls.
Posted By: Rybak Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/20/12 03:29 PM
The idea that this group of women are holy fools defies logic. Last night I watched a news report from Germany about their group and it's recent history. It showed clips of three of their other protests which featured the most debauched types of public group sex, naked exploits and even animals! It was beyond disgusting. Most of their activity is political, the acts in the cathedral seem to be their first public foray into the religious arena. Another indication that they are not holy fools. This group of 10 to 13 women (3 of which participated in the cathedral event) are over-the-top, offensive publicity seekers. I don't mind their 2 year jail sentence at all.
Posted By: Epiphanius Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/20/12 08:01 PM
Let me start by saying I'm no great fan of feminist punk-rockers. However, when Church leaders are "in bed" with evil and dictatorial governments, they are really inviting this sort of thing. As I see it, the protesters are primarily (if not exclusively) concerned with the fact that the leaders of the ROC have brought it into such close alliance with the Putin regime that anything Putin does--however evil--automatically has their endorsement.

Originally Posted by EasternRomioi3
Anyone who would rush into any religious building for any reason and interrupt any sort of gathering simple lacks manners and even a shred of decency.

Oooh, this description sounds eerily like Our Lord's cleansing of the Temple.

Posted By: Epiphanius Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/20/12 08:10 PM
Originally Posted by Rybak
The idea that this group of women are holy fools defies logic.


I think Stuart is speaking of their message in this instance, not their personal lives.
Posted By: Alice Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/20/12 09:15 PM
Personally, I think that we, as Americans, should get off our high horse and stop judging the way other countries govern themselves...

After all, from a moral standpoint, we have become about as sinful and enabling of all sorts of moral sin, blasphemy, and disgrace as any country can possibly get--having exported our immorality through Hollywood and the music industry to the rest of the world.
Posted By: StuartK Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/20/12 11:21 PM
Quote
Personally, I think that we, as Americans, should get off our high horse and stop judging the way other countries govern themselves...


What happens in Moscow stays in Moscow?

What happens in Beijiing stays in Beijing?

What happens in Berlin stays in Berlin?

Am I my brother's keeper?

Who is my neighbor?
Posted By: jjp Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/20/12 11:42 PM
First take out the log in your own eye, just not lest ye be judged, etc.

As long as the criticism applies equally, everywhere, it is important to be able to criticize.

Moscow should have just called them domestic terrorists with Islamist ties, then we would all sagely nod our head and move on to the next bit of news.
Posted By: StuartK Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/21/12 12:13 AM
Quote
Moscow should have just called them domestic terrorists with Islamist ties, then we would all sagely nod our head and move on to the next bit of news.


That's arrant nonsense, and you know it. Among other things, Russia's actions in Chechnya have brutally indiscriminate, and were justified by terrorist actions against Russian citizens staged by FSB agents provocateurs. To the Putin regime, "domestic terrorist" has the same connotation that "Bandarista" had to Stalin's thugs after World War II.
Posted By: Slavipodvizhnik Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/21/12 03:23 AM
The truth behind this blasphemous act.

http://members5.boardhost.com/medialens/msg/1345323773.html


Alexandr
Posted By: jjp Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/21/12 04:58 AM
Originally Posted by StuartK

That's arrant nonsense, and you know it. Among other things, Russia's actions in Chechnya have brutally indiscriminate, and were justified by terrorist actions against Russian citizens staged by FSB agents provocateurs. To the Putin regime, "domestic terrorist" has the same connotation that "Bandarista" had to Stalin's thugs after World War II.


My point was that it would play much better to American/international audiences, who have no problem with brutality as long as it's properly explained away with sinister Islamist undertones.
Posted By: bkovacs Punk Girls and Russia - 08/21/12 08:15 AM
Great article that explains what the liberal western media didn't emphasize, or even mention.
http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/4212934.html
Posted By: Irish_Ruthenian Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/21/12 01:31 PM
Originally Posted by Epiphanius
Originally Posted by Rybak
The idea that this group of women are holy fools defies logic.


I think Stuart is speaking of their message in this instance, not their personal lives.


I have had to think for a while about all the arguments on this board. Several things come to mind, some of which may actually be true:

1. Holy Fools love Christ, therefore, even in the message they deliver by their lives, they do not resort to obscenity, vile behavior, and descration of holy places. All the Holy Fools I read about in literature were homeless wanderers, not Church desecrators.

2. To compare these women to Christ cleansing the Temple is a bad joke at best, it borders on blasphemous at worst. Christ did not use obscenity, his cleansing had an obtainable objective, even as God in the Flesh He did not enter the holy area, He did not use satanic music, and he did not flash His private parts (my understanding is that the girls did).

3. We don't know what is going on in Russia with the government. We don't know Putin's objectives, however, we do know that he has opposed any and all "Gay Pride" parades, claiming that they would bring down the wrath of God upon Russia (we Americans should take heed).

4. Where does it say that the Church should not be working with the government? As a Theocratic Monarchialist, I find Democracy repulsive. Mob rule, especially when that mob is Socialists, Atheists, Communists (a fitting description of our governance in this country, along with the media) is not a good working model of political rulership. God has every claim to the governance of countries through the unified working of Church and State together (Romans 13: 1-5). I think that far too many of the posters on this board have been hoodwinked by the "American Experiment" which is in reality a failed example of Protestant Calvinism.

5. I would not give them jail, as the Sacred Scriptures nowhere call for such a punishment. I would mandate them to go to Church for the next five years in hopes that the Holy Spirit would bring the Gospel to their hearts.

Again....just my .02.
Posted By: StuartK Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/21/12 03:22 PM
Tim Kelleher writing at First Things this morning:

Quote
What in God’s name are you doing?

With deference, this question is directed to the President of The Russian Federation, and more pointedly, to his ecclesial counterpart, the Patriarch of Moscow.

Vladimir Putin apparently has his appeal amongst the fairer sex, Patriarch Kirill, presumably less so. Yet, in tandem, they managed to incite—or depending on your view—incur a riot. It turned out to be a Pussy Riot.

In any case, a resultant skirmish has since grown to surprising scale, gained international attention, and may yet prove to be a grave miscalculation on the part of the two leaders.

In March, activist group, Pussy Riot, staged a decidedly inelegant “protest” inside one of Orthodoxy’s highest profile shrines—a stunt that, in terms of physical threat, posed less of one than a gaggle of pigeons flying inadvertently into the same space.

The space in question was Christ the Savior Cathedral, seat of the Russian Church, located in intimate proximity to the Kremlin. And Pussy Riot’s presence there was anything but inadvertent.

Three of the protestors were later arrested and spent the next five and a half months in jail awaiting a trial that ended a week ago. This past Friday, they were found guilty and sentenced to two years in prison.

The charges, delivered in a 2,800 page bale, sound eccentric to Western ears—hooliganism being the chief complaint—and speak of offenses against the sensibilities of religious believers as well as the integrity of the social order.

For their part, the activists have maintained their intent was never to insult the Church, or the state, but to add a sense of urgency to the concern that the relationship between the two is growing increasingly unseemly. It’s hardly an extremist view, one shared by a wide range of people—most of who don’t wear balaclavas or jump around in tights when expressing it. One, Gary Kasparov, was arrested outside the courthouse while protesting Friday’s verdict.

Initially, Patriach Kirill refrained from weighing in. When he finally did, he weighed in heavy—painting the protestors as agents of the diabolical and calling for the harshest consequences.

Defenders of Kirill are quick to claim that Western critics take a simplistic approach to a social reality we don’t understand and are not competent to judge. No doubt, there’s some truth in that. The catastrophe of the Soviet persecution of religion, for example, placed church leaders who survived, in often-impossible predicaments, forcing compromises they felt obliged to accept, and over which they never ceased to agonize. Whereas developments in the West led to separation of church and state as the default position of the contemporary polis, the East has traveled a different path.

Perhaps nowhere is this more dramatically illustrated than in Russia, heir of Kievan-Rus, where pre-schism Christianity was embraced in its Eastern form by Prince Vladimir at the close of the 10th century, and quickly “bestowed” upon his subjects. While only Constantine may have played a larger role in fusing cross and crown, it is Vladimir’s legacy that is being felt most palpably in our own day—and in places like a Moscow courthouse last week.

Yet, the Church is called to be the Church—royal, priestly and prophetic—dwelling in graced tension with any and every temporal institution. To my knowledge, the Church has never viewed itself as a fortress in need of protecting. Rather, especially in the East, it is the image of the hospital—a place of forgiveness and healing—that is prescriptive.

The satisfaction of humbling one’s opponents is no match for the evangelical power of forgiving them. Thus, Patriarch Kirill’s demand for severity seems to strengthen the perception given voice by Pussy Riot, that the Church is able, willing, and eager to supply spiritual muscle in the cause of eliminating opposition to Mr. Putin. In so doing, it only helps enlarge popular acceptance of the most negative stereotypes of Christianity in general, and Orthodoxy in particular.

The defendants faced a maximum of seven years for their hooliganism. They received two—an outcome hinted at by President Putin during a brief trip to London during the Olympics.

There, in calling for “leniency,” he put some distance between himself and a swelling chorus of international critics. He may have also put a little space between himself and the Patriarch, leaving Kirill the singular face of the reactionary element.

Last Friday, many in Russia, and millions beyond, hoped to witness a tangible sign of a loving father’s forgiveness of three of his young daughters. It didn’t happen.

Tim Kelleher is a television and film writer, actor, and director.
Posted By: Slavipodvizhnik Re: Punk Girls and Russia - 08/22/12 04:36 AM
Blasphemy in an Orthodox Church in Russia = Free speech.

Leaving bacon in a New York City park where Muslims intend to pray = Hate Crime


http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2012/08...e-after-bacon-found-at-s-i-ramadan-site/


Thank God for Patriarch +Kirill and President Putin and their standing up for decency and all that is good in the face of upside down Western thinking.
Posted By: EasternRomioi3 Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/22/12 05:55 AM
StuartK, I must ask, what do you mean by "A good example of the soft bigotry of low expectations. "They're just Russians--this is what they deserve".

Also a startling example of historical illiteracy, but I've given up on that--few people come up to my standards these days."

I'm just curious as what you mean by the context of that. Also, I must ask, are you accusing me of historical illiteracy?
Posted By: bergschlawiner Re: Punk Girls and Russia - 08/22/12 06:54 AM
Originally Posted by Slavipodvizhnik
Thank God for Patriarch +Kirill and President Putin and their standing up for decency and all that is good in the face of upside down Western thinking.

Amen!
Posted By: bergschlawiner Re: Punk Girls and Russia - 08/22/12 07:00 AM
I ask Americans what would be the reaction if this type of thing took place at the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier at Arlington National Cemetery, probably one of the few places Americans consider sacred.
Posted By: Scotty Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/22/12 09:24 AM
I agree with Irish R. these girls are no holy fools. They should have chosen an appropriate place to demonstrate vs Putin. Now, should Patriarch Krill weighted in as he did and the sentence as harsh as it is? Thats something the Russians have to figure out.
Posted By: StuartK Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/22/12 12:13 PM
What, pray tell, is an "appropriate" place to make a statement about the unhealthy and unholy alliance between Vladimir Putin and the Russian Orthodox Church? Insofar as both men are concerned, there are no appropriate places for dissent within Russia.
Posted By: StuartK Re: Punk Girls and Russia - 08/22/12 12:23 PM
Well, insofar as we live in a country that has rule of law and a sense of proportion, the women would have been arrested for criminal trespass, perhaps also for staging a concert without a permit, and also perhaps for public profanity. They would have been booked, hailed before a magistrate within 48 hours, and (assuming they were found guilty--never a sure thing with a real as opposed to a show trial), either fined or sentenced to community service or a short term in jail.

Most assuredly they would not have been kept in prison for months awaiting trial, subjected to a massive televised judicial travesty, and then sentenced to two years of hard labor in prisons two or three orders of magnitude worse than even the worse cesspit of a jail in the United States.

Therein are just a few of the differences between life in the United States, and life in Russia under that "miracle", that "gift from God", Vladimir Putin.

Take your choice.
Posted By: Carson Daniel Re: Punk Girls and Russia - 08/22/12 12:56 PM
The difference also bespeaks the difference between the way the Orthodox see their relationship to the government and the way Catholic see it. This was one of the points I was trying to make in two posts that were deleted before the discussions really got going. I'm glad to see that it is being revived here.
Posted By: DMD Re: Punk Girls and Russia - 08/22/12 01:03 PM
Originally Posted by StuartK
Well, insofar as we live in a country that has rule of law and a sense of proportion, the women would have been arrested for criminal trespass, perhaps also for staging a concert without a permit, and also perhaps for public profanity. They would have been booked, hailed before a magistrate within 48 hours, and (assuming they were found guilty--never a sure thing with a real as opposed to a show trial), either fined or sentenced to community service or a short term in jail.

Most assuredly they would not have been kept in prison for months awaiting trial, subjected to a massive televised judicial travesty, and then sentenced to two years of hard labor in prisons two or three orders of magnitude worse than even the worse cesspit of a jail in the United States.

Therein are just a few of the differences between life in the United States, and life in Russia under that "miracle", that "gift from God", Vladimir Putin.

Take your choice.


I will proudly take the USA - with all of her imperfections, arguments and fractured politics.

Stuart and I rarely agree in the political arena but when it comes to those fundamental things which have made the Anglo-American system of jurisprudence and balance (imperfect as it is...) a beacon of light in an otherwise dark world we are in full agreement.

What the punkers did was shocking, blasphemous and - frankly childish. How the Russian state reacted was indicative of a far greater danger. Had they been punished as they would have been in the United States they would not have become a 'cause celebre' around the world, thereby allowing secular humanists and non-believers to 'tut tut' about the Church, State and the all too complex nature of the historical relationship between the two in any western culture. (By western I mean those states who owe some debt to the civilization of the Hellenes and the Romans - not just the Church of Rome.)

Unless of course you secretly yearn for a church state hegemony in which all manners of human conduct and foreign policy are conducted in accordance with a theocratic heavy hand. Oh wait - there is such a modern state - Iran. Should Russia become the 'orthodox' (intentional use of a small 'o' folks) equivalent? I suspect Putin and his crew have intentionally hijacked the Church - willing to reassert her historic role in the Russian culture and people (at what cost I might ask?) in order to restore the oligarchy - wrapped in a velvet glove rather than a naked iron fist.

By the way - Stuart and I still disagree on other matters! wink
Posted By: Carson Daniel Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/22/12 01:14 PM
Slavipodvizhnik,

Thank you for that link. I think I finally understand the issues at hand. The Pussy Rioters are really enemies of the cooperation between Church and State that has been the pillar of Russian and Byzantine Society. If the Pussy Rioters who are called the "pig snout" of the Liberal attempts against Russian Society are successful Russian civilization will be destroyed.

CDL
Posted By: StuartK Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/22/12 02:17 PM
On the other hand, if the Russian Church continues to be the lapdog of the Russian government, then Russian civilization will be destroyed.
Posted By: StuartK Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/22/12 02:21 PM
Carson,

If you look at how the Byzantine symphonia worked, you will see it was nothing like the caesaropapism that pertained in Russia from Ivan Grozny until the fall of communism, and which is rising again under Vladimir Putin. Where, for instance, is the present-day St. Filip of Moscow? Which member of the Holy Synod wishes to stand up and denounce Putin to his face for his abuses of power, his corruption, his suppression of human rights, his brutality, and the extrajudicial murder of his political opponents? Anybody? Anybody? Faux outrage over Pussy Riot, dead silence over something that truly is outrageous.
Posted By: StuartK Re: Punk Girls and Russia - 08/22/12 02:22 PM
We disagree, but we respect each other.
Posted By: Carson Daniel Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/22/12 02:47 PM
Originally Posted by StuartK
On the other hand, if the Russian Church continues to be the lapdog of the Russian government, then Russian civilization will be destroyed.


But it's the Orthodox way. That is the difference between Catholic and Orthodox thought on the subject.

You may be right. I need to study more Russian history. Still, that Orthodoxy was infiltrated by the KGB during those dark years of Communism and did persecute Catholics is a sad page of history. I'm glad we are finally discussing it.

Posted By: StuartK Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/22/12 03:10 PM
Quote
But it's the Orthodox way. That is the difference between Catholic and Orthodox thought on the subject.


That's the thing--it's not the "Orthodox Way"--it is a corruption of the Orthodox way, one that dates only to the fall of Constantinople, the Turkokratia and the rise of autocracy in Russia in the 16th century. Under the Roman Empire (i.e., Byzantium), the Church was not handmaiden of the government, it was a co-equal partner, each with primacy in its own area. The Church relied on the state to maintain order and discipline, accept and implement the teaching of the Church; the state, for its part, received legitimacy and spiritual guidance from the Church. Whenever the state attempted to interfere in the doctrinal or spiritual affairs of the Church, it came down on the losing side. It may not have happened immediately, and it may have been messy, but at the end of the day, whether on arianism, monophysitism, monothelitism, iconoclasm or any of the myriad other controversies that roiled Eastern Christendom, Orthodoxy did triumph, and heresiarch emperors were condemned.

Russian history, from the time of Ivan Grozny to today, however, shows the Church continually reduced to an appennage of the state, doing the bidding of the state, even when such support runs contrary to the Church's evangelical witness.

And while it is true that the Orthodox Church was infiltrated by the KGB, so, too, was the Catholic Church by the secret police in Poland, in Hungary, in East Germany, etc. Such was the tragedy of communism. Yes, the Russian Orthodox Church has yet to admit its complicity in the suppression of the Greek Catholic Churches, but then the Roman Catholic Church in Poland has yet to acknowledge its suppression of the Greek Catholic Church in that country. Yes, Greek Catholics suffered under communism; so, too, did Orthodox Christians, and in much greater numbers.

While the severity of persecution does not excuse collaboration, it does make it explicable: Orthodox Church leaders had to balance on a knife's edge between opposing the communist authorities and risking the survival of their Churches; or collaborating with them and risking the corruption of their souls. It was an impossible situation--you weren't there, Carson, and didn't have to make the decision, therefore you are not in a position to judge them.

On the other hand, the fall of communism was an opportunity to clear the air, for metanoia, for the establishment of truth--and this the Orthodox Church in Russia has not done (in contrast, e.g., to the Orthodox Church in Romania). Those who had collaborated had the opportunity to atone and to apologize did not do so; scandals were covered up, and as a result there has been no healing, and the Church has not been able to assume its place as locus for the moral regeneration of Russia.
Posted By: jjp Re: Punk Girls and Russia - 08/22/12 03:29 PM
Originally Posted by StuartK
Well, insofar as we live in a country that has rule of law and a sense of proportion, the women would have been arrested for criminal trespass, perhaps also for staging a concert without a permit, and also perhaps for public profanity. They would have been booked, hailed before a magistrate within 48 hours, and (assuming they were found guilty--never a sure thing with a real as opposed to a show trial), either fined or sentenced to community service or a short term in jail.

Most assuredly they would not have been kept in prison for months awaiting trial, subjected to a massive televised judicial travesty, and then sentenced to two years of hard labor in prisons two or three orders of magnitude worse than even the worse cesspit of a jail in the United States.

Therein are just a few of the differences between life in the United States, and life in Russia under that "miracle", that "gift from God", Vladimir Putin.

Take your choice.


Unless, as I said elsewhere, they are deemed "terrorists" in which case the Land of the Free wouldn't even bother with the pretense of a show trial.

I agree with the criticism of Putin's heavy hand, but we have quite a log in our own eye that warrants just as much attention, if not more - for those of us that live in the US.

It is perfectly legal to lock up American citizens indefinitely without due process of any kind.
Posted By: DMD Re: Punk Girls and Russia - 08/22/12 03:35 PM
Originally Posted by jjp
Originally Posted by StuartK
Well, insofar as we live in a country that has rule of law and a sense of proportion, the women would have been arrested for criminal trespass, perhaps also for staging a concert without a permit, and also perhaps for public profanity. They would have been booked, hailed before a magistrate within 48 hours, and (assuming they were found guilty--never a sure thing with a real as opposed to a show trial), either fined or sentenced to community service or a short term in jail.

Most assuredly they would not have been kept in prison for months awaiting trial, subjected to a massive televised judicial travesty, and then sentenced to two years of hard labor in prisons two or three orders of magnitude worse than even the worse cesspit of a jail in the United States.

Therein are just a few of the differences between life in the United States, and life in Russia under that "miracle", that "gift from God", Vladimir Putin.

Take your choice.


Unless, as I said elsewhere, they are deemed "terrorists" in which case the Land of the Free wouldn't even bother with the pretense of a show trial.

I agree with the criticism of Putin's heavy hand, but we have quite a log in our own eye that warrants just as much attention, if not more - for those of us that live in the US.

It is perfectly legal to lock up American citizens indefinitely without due process of any kind.



I won't disagree with your assessment of our, and Britain's, oft-heavy handed response with respect to terror issues and there certainly is a legitimate argument regarding these matters.

However - apples and oranges are being compared. And - all things considered - I will take our admittedly imperfect Anglo-American jurisprudence system starting from Magna Carta over that of the Justinian and its progeny the Napoleonic code and those countries - ranging from the mainland of Europe such as France or Germany and into Russia herself - who used those as the models for their legal systems.
Posted By: DMD Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/22/12 03:38 PM
Originally Posted by StuartK
Quote
But it's the Orthodox way. That is the difference between Catholic and Orthodox thought on the subject.


That's the thing--it's not the "Orthodox Way"--it is a corruption of the Orthodox way, one that dates only to the fall of Constantinople, the Turkokratia and the rise of autocracy in Russia in the 16th century. Under the Roman Empire (i.e., Byzantium), the Church was not handmaiden of the government, it was a co-equal partner, each with primacy in its own area. The Church relied on the state to maintain order and discipline, accept and implement the teaching of the Church; the state, for its part, received legitimacy and spiritual guidance from the Church. Whenever the state attempted to interfere in the doctrinal or spiritual affairs of the Church, it came down on the losing side. It may not have happened immediately, and it may have been messy, but at the end of the day, whether on arianism, monophysitism, monothelitism, iconoclasm or any of the myriad other controversies that roiled Eastern Christendom, Orthodoxy did triumph, and heresiarch emperors were condemned.

Russian history, from the time of Ivan Grozny to today, however, shows the Church continually reduced to an appennage of the state, doing the bidding of the state, even when such support runs contrary to the Church's evangelical witness.

And while it is true that the Orthodox Church was infiltrated by the KGB, so, too, was the Catholic Church by the secret police in Poland, in Hungary, in East Germany, etc. Such was the tragedy of communism. Yes, the Russian Orthodox Church has yet to admit its complicity in the suppression of the Greek Catholic Churches, but then the Roman Catholic Church in Poland has yet to acknowledge its suppression of the Greek Catholic Church in that country. Yes, Greek Catholics suffered under communism; so, too, did Orthodox Christians, and in much greater numbers.

While the severity of persecution does not excuse collaboration, it does make it explicable: Orthodox Church leaders had to balance on a knife's edge between opposing the communist authorities and risking the survival of their Churches; or collaborating with them and risking the corruption of their souls. It was an impossible situation--you weren't there, Carson, and didn't have to make the decision, therefore you are not in a position to judge them.

On the other hand, the fall of communism was an opportunity to clear the air, for metanoia, for the establishment of truth--and this the Orthodox Church in Russia has not done (in contrast, e.g., to the Orthodox Church in Romania). Those who had collaborated had the opportunity to atone and to apologize did not do so; scandals were covered up, and as a result there has been no healing, and the Church has not been able to assume its place as locus for the moral regeneration of Russia.


Check the alignment of the stars - buy a Lotto ticket or something - Stuart and I again agree on a matter of public policy! Twice in one day.

Well said...and it bears repeating that there is much of western European history and the corruption of the Church through her involvement in the affairs of state for which to be critical.
Posted By: Penthaetria Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/22/12 04:49 PM
Frederica Mathewes-Green writes about the episode:

"History, Blasphemy, and Russia."
Posted By: jjp Re: Punk Girls and Russia - 08/22/12 05:07 PM
I would also take our jurisprudence system, at it was envisioned, not what it has morphed into.

All Putin needs to say is "we deemed them enemy combatants" and any criticism from the US has no moral or legal legs to stand on. The same thing happens here.

The rest is just details.
Posted By: StuartK Re: Punk Girls and Russia - 08/22/12 07:17 PM
Quote
All Putin needs to say is "we deemed them enemy combatants" and any criticism from the US has no moral or legal legs to stand on. The same thing happens here
.

Putin could. But an American President could not, because, under our systems, words (like "enemy combatant") actually do have meaning, and laws--even ones you don't like--must follow due process.
Posted By: haydukovich Re: Punk Girls and Russia - 08/22/12 07:29 PM
We are getting more and more socialist.

more and more communist -

and both are extremely and ultimately anti religious and anti catholic.

Judges who legislate from the bench distort the justice in the USA - and create a socialistic culture
Posted By: Carson Daniel Re: Punk Girls and Russia - 08/22/12 08:28 PM
http://www.frederica.com/writings/history-blasphemy-and-russia.html
Posted By: Epiphanius Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/22/12 08:58 PM
Stuart,

First, let me thank you for posting Tim Kelleher's article.

However, I'm still concerned about your earlier comments:
Originally Posted by StuartK
Originally Posted by EasternRomioi3
Russia has always had supreme authority figures. Think back to the old Russian saying "Orthodoxy, Autocracy, Nationality." Orthodoxy is the Russian way, autocracy is the way of their political system, it always has been.

A good example of the soft bigotry of low expectations. "They're just Russians--this is what they deserve".

The problem here is that I don't think he's saying, "They're just Russians--this is what they deserve." Rather, I think he's saying, "Stop judging Russia by modern Western standards." I'm sure you're aware that several members of this forum actually see this as the ideal situation, and decry our American values such as freedom of expression as leading necessarily to the moral degeneracy and irreligion that are rampant in the West today, but even more of them see it as being at least an equally valid perspective. Hardly "low expectations."

Now, getting back to the Tim Kelleher article, I appreciate first and foremost that he does share our perception of how the world is interpreting these events. I particularly like where he says:

Quote
For their part, the activists have maintained their intent was never to insult the Church, or the state, but to add a sense of urgency to the concern that the relationship between the two is growing increasingly unseemly. It’s hardly an extremist view, one shared by a wide range of people ... One, [former world chess champion] Gary Kasparov, was arrested outside the courthouse while protesting Friday’s verdict.

First of all, it's good to know what the defendants' actual explanation for their own actions was, and that it was not nearly so extremist as their actions would suggest. That puts the response to those actions in a whole different light--one that is not missed by the onlooking world. Like it or not, Patriarch Kiril's actions are serving to reinforce the already-existing perception held by many, that the Church is far more interested in sustaining its own prerogatives than in addressing any real wrongs in society.

I'll skip over Kelleher's historical analysis, which I thought was pretty lame, and get on to what was really worthwhile:

Quote
Yet, the Church is called to be the Church—royal, priestly and prophetic—dwelling in graced tension with any and every temporal institution.
...
The satisfaction of humbling one’s opponents is no match for the evangelical power of forgiving them. Thus, Patriarch Kirill’s demand for severity seems to strengthen the perception given voice by Pussy Riot, that the Church is able, willing, and eager to supply spiritual muscle in the cause of eliminating opposition to Mr. Putin. In so doing, it only helps enlarge popular acceptance of the most negative stereotypes of Christianity in general, and Orthodoxy in particular.

Posted By: jjp Re: Punk Girls and Russia - 08/22/12 09:59 PM
Originally Posted by StuartK
Quote
All Putin needs to say is "we deemed them enemy combatants" and any criticism from the US has no moral or legal legs to stand on. The same thing happens here
.

Putin could. But an American President could not, because, under our systems, words (like "enemy combatant") actually do have meaning, and laws--even ones you don't like--must follow due process.


Really? What due process in the detention of terror suspects do you imagine there is? Since I can't prove a negative, you'll have elaborate on what this might be.
Posted By: StuartK Re: Punk Girls and Russia - 08/22/12 11:58 PM
Quote
Really? What due process in the detention of terror suspects do you imagine there is? Since I can't prove a negative, you'll have elaborate on what this might be.


The statement is so inane that any attempt at explaining would be wasted.
Posted By: jjp Re: Punk Girls and Russia - 08/23/12 02:11 AM
Originally Posted by StuartK
Quote
Really? What due process in the detention of terror suspects do you imagine there is? Since I can't prove a negative, you'll have elaborate on what this might be.


The statement is so inane that any attempt at explaining would be wasted.


Aw, I've seen you respond to much more inane things. Give it a shot.
Posted By: StuartK Re: Punk Girls and Russia - 08/23/12 02:27 AM
Most terror suspects detained in the United States are processed through the ordinary criminal justice system--whereas, in countries like France, Germany and Italy (as a result of their experience with international terrorism in the 1970s-80s) have special "terrorism courts" in which most laws of evidence do not apply and in which all cases are determined by anonymous tribunals of special magistrates.

By comparison, the military tribunals through which terrorists apprehended abroad are tried by the United States go the extra mile to ensure a fair trial. One only gets in front of such a tribunal by being captured in arms as an unlawful combatant (a term that has a specific definition under both the UCMJ and international law) or apprehended as part of a terrorist conspiracy. These are most decidedly not good people, and, frankly, most of them deserve no more than a drumhead court martial followed by an expeditious visit to the firing squad, but the U.S. seems intent on appeasing world opinion regardless of centuries of legal precedent regarding how to handle these cases.

As for holding terrorists indefinitely, if we don't execute them, what other option is there? If we were to treat them as lawful combatants, they would be prisoners of war, incarcerated for the duration--which is to say, an indefinite period. But they are unlawful combatants, so in reality they have no "rights" whatsoever--yet rather than treating them as such, we have gone out of our way to treat them better than we treat our ordinary domestic criminal class, putting them in a very nice facility in the Caribbean, where they get first class food, medical care, recreation and a great climate.

Frankly, I think a couple of years hard labor in a Russian prison for "hooliganism" would be a real eye opener, both for them--and for you.
Posted By: jjp Re: Punk Girls and Russia - 08/23/12 04:36 AM
What you just described is a fantasy.

Jose Padilla, US citizen, arrested in Chicago, deemed enemy combatant by the president, held and tortured without due process for three and a half years in a military prison, then sent to a civil trial when public outcry reached a pitch, where he was found guilty of charges unrelated to his original detainment, of which he's now serving time.

Pussy Riot had it easy in comparison.

If you were president, you absolutely could send me to the gulag.
Posted By: Nelson Chase Re: Punk Girls and Russia - 08/23/12 05:00 AM
The Patriot Act and the recent NDAA come to my mind as examples. "Indefinite Detention" of American citizens without trial seems to be just a tad bit authoritarian, don't you think? I mean the punk band got some sort of trial.


Posted By: StuartK Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/23/12 06:14 PM
All the Padilla case proved was the inadequacy of the civil court system for dealing with acts of war. The Patriot Act balances quite well the issues of personal liberty and domestic security. If you think that the Patriot Act is harsh, think about the response that will be forced upon any U.S. government if there is a second attack of the magnitude of 9/11--or even a string of smaller attacks.

Also, as with all attempts at moral equivalency--Epic FAIL.
Posted By: jjp Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/23/12 07:18 PM
There are no attempts at moral equivalency. Just refutations of the notion that things like this only happen in Russia, and a rejection of the position that they do not happen in the US. They do, as outlined above.

Your reading of the Padilla case is your own, and it is underwhelming. To be clear, it does indeed belie your claim that

Originally Posted by StuartK
But an American President could not, because, under our systems, words (like "enemy combatant") actually do have meaning, and laws--even ones you don't like--must follow due process.


He had zero due process, and that is exactly what the president did.

Epic fail.

As for your claim that his case proved the inadequacy of the civil court system for dealing with acts of war, I can only assume you aren't very familiar with his case. He wasn't given a civil trial until 3 1/2 years after being apprehended, deemed an enemy combatant of war, and held in a military prison with no due process whatsoever. What part of that proves the inadequacy of the civil court system in dealing with "acts of war"?

Further, you are accepting the premise that we are in fact in a state of war (undeclared and indefinite, with no enemy except those deemed an enemy by the president). How different is that from the heavy hand of Putin?

I say this not to forgive abuses in Russia, but to condemn them both abroad and in our very homes. And since I live here, I spend most of my time worrying about these things when they happen here, and less when they happen on the other side of the planet.
Posted By: StuartK Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/23/12 09:02 PM
Quote
He had zero due process, and that is exactly what the president did.


Right. That's why there is a court case bearing his name. Or does "due process" mean "results that I like"?
Posted By: jjp Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/24/12 12:21 AM
Originally Posted by StuartK
Quote
He had zero due process, and that is exactly what the president did.


Right. That's why there is a court case bearing his name. Or does "due process" mean "results that I like"?


There is a court case in Moscow bearing the "Pussy Riot" name. I suppose you are saying they had due process as well. Oh, it means more than that?

Padilla saw the inside of a court room 3 1/2 years after being detained. During that time he was held in prolonged isolation without any civil proceedings whatsoever, much of it without access to an attorney or family or anyone else, while enduring "harsh interrogation" which has been recorded to have included sensory deprivation, death threats, forced acid trips, stress positions, etc.

Until he was finally released from military custody and put through a civil trial years later (where he was convicted of charges completely unrelated to the original charges that he was detained under).

If that's how you define due process then you have more in common with Vlad than you would like to admit.
Posted By: StuartK Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/24/12 12:31 AM
Acceptable Risk

Inadvertantly Missed
Posted By: Nelson Chase Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/24/12 03:31 AM
One "inadvertently missed" is one too many.
Posted By: IAlmisry Re: Punk Girls and Russia - 08/24/12 04:11 AM
Originally Posted by StuartK
Quote
All Putin needs to say is "we deemed them enemy combatants" and any criticism from the US has no moral or legal legs to stand on. The same thing happens here
.

Putin could. But an American President could not, because, under our systems, words (like "enemy combatant") actually do have meaning, and laws--even ones you don't like--must follow due process.

LOL. Never been in court nor jail, have you?
Posted By: StuartK Re: Punk Girls and Russia - 08/24/12 12:33 PM
You're quite right--there is absolutely no difference between the American justice system and the Russian justice system. And with that in mind, do try to stay out of trouble in the future.
Posted By: Rybak Re: Punk Girls and Russia - 08/24/12 05:29 PM
After all the Russia-bashing going on in these comments, what do you all think of this:

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/...uld-face-3-year-sentence-in-germany?lite

Looks like Germany, our trusted ally, might sentence the copycat Pussy Riot protestors, who struck at the Cologne RC cathedral, with a 3 year sentence.

Makes Russia look mild in comparison.
Posted By: StuartK Re: Punk Girls and Russia - 08/24/12 05:48 PM
Ever seen the inside of a German prison, Rybak? They're like Russian hotels. In any case, it is highly unlikely they will receive anything worse than a fine.
Posted By: Rybak Re: Punk Girls and Russia - 08/24/12 06:46 PM
I have never been in prison and I have no such plans for the future, thank you.
Posted By: StuartK Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/24/12 06:49 PM
Possibly the most balanced exchange on the subject I have seen:

Pussy Riot: A complex view from Orthodox Moscow

Posted By: Recluse Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/24/12 07:30 PM
Originally Posted by StuartK
Possibly the most balanced exchange on the subject I have seen:
Pussy Riot: A complex view from Orthodox Moscow


Hmmm? I do not see that as fair and balanced at all. I see it as more Russia bashing. And I take anything written by Frederica Mathewes-Green with a grain of salt.
Posted By: StuartK Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/24/12 09:42 PM
So, a Russian Orthodox, living in Russia, criticizes the political situation in Russia, and you call it bashing. Which is really your way of saying any criticism of Russia is off the table, entirely--Russia can do no wrong (and why not? It is, after all "Holy Mother Russia", the "Third Rome" and New Jerusalem--says so on the label).

The article, by the way, is not by Khouria Frederica (whom I know, and with whom I do not always agree), but by Rod Dreher (with whom I have corresponded and often do not agree). All they did was relay e-mails received by an Orthodox Christian living in Moscow, commenting on the situation in Moscow. Leads me to think you did not read very closely at all.

You don't like the news, so impugn the messenger? Why not try dealing with reality for a change. It's difficult and causes headaches, I know--but it's so much better than waking up with a Cool-Aid hangover.
Posted By: StuartK Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/24/12 09:48 PM
And, for what it is worth, the original Matthewes-Green article History, Blasphemy and Russia and podcast very much took the line that the Pussy Riot was an act of inexcusable blasphemy.

The Dreher article to which I linked was mainly the response of one Russian Orthodox Christian to Khouria Frederica's podcast, an attempt to put some much needed context into the discussion.

Context which, I see, a lot of people are going out of their way to avoid.
Posted By: Alice Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/25/12 03:09 PM
Just curious as to why there is such an obsession over the government of another country anyway?

Do those with the obsession over Putin and Russia have a dual citizenship with that country, or do they wish to retire there??

Do those with the obsession have relatives there?

Just trying to put it into perspective, out of curiousity for why this thread keeps on going on and on.
Posted By: StuartK Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/25/12 04:10 PM
While I do not have relatives there, I do have friends, and Russia has been an area of personal and professional interest for me and my family for more than thirty years. My daughter returned from two months in Kazan at the beginning of August; this was her fourth extended visit to the country (which includes stays in Moscow, Petersburg, Vladimir and Kazan. Both my wife and might daughter (neither of whom have a drop of Slavic blood) are fully fluent in Russian.

That aside, one should care about what happens in Russia for a number of reasons:

1. We are our brother's keeper.

2. Russia has pretensions of being a great power, bolstered by its possession of some 5000 nuclear warheads and its use of oil and natural gas exports to influence foreign policy within the EU and other countries.

3. Russia strategic objectives and foreign policy are frequently at odds with our own on matters such as Iran's nuclear weapons program, North Korea and Syria.

4. Russia, together with China, has a veto on the UN Security Council, which effectively prevents that body from accomplishing anything useful.

5. Russia is a country with serious systemic problems--social, political, economic and demographic, all of which render it unstable. While Putinist autocracy can render the appearance of stability for a little while by suppressing dissent, this is merely patching over leaks in the boiler, which will eventually explode, with consequences far beyond the borders of Russia.

6. The Orthodox Church is the only nexus of authority within Russia that can lead a moral regeneration of the country, a moral regeneration that is a prerequisite for social, economic and political reform--in other words, a path to to stability and peace. The Church's close association with the state has compromised its moral standing (see the article I posted above), which makes it impossible for the Church to fulfill its evangelical mission. Reform of the Church, therefore, is a precondition for the reform of Russian society, leading to a reform of the Russian government, leading to a reform of the Russian economy.

These are more than enough reasons for caring what happens in Russia, and you should note that those who know and love Russia the best are the ones most deeply concerned about its moral, political and economic collapse. Would you have us just pretend that everything is fine? That's what Russia has always done, to its great detriment and the world's.
Posted By: haydukovich Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/25/12 05:09 PM
Great comments on Russia -

Until you have been you have no idea how ruthless the Russian people can be against - their own people, and against the Religious.

There are still MANY ex KGB agents running the show - yes even in the Orthodox Church -

Freedom of Religion and separation of Church and State are wonderful things. Russia exterminated more christians (and possible as many or more Jews than Hitler) and we Americans have no idea what that feels like.

We live in a country where we do not experience the levels of poverty, corruption, and outright slavery to the state that exists in MOST of the world.

I think we do not use the GIFT of this freedom to our advantage in our world view.

We need to preserve our own freedoms - or we will end up looking exactly like Russia sooner than we think.
Posted By: Mike L. Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/25/12 06:15 PM
The Non-Obvious and the Likely: More about how the Church is getting closer to the State

Open letter of Fr. Sergy (Ribko) to Sir Paul McCartney
Posted By: Alice Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/25/12 10:58 PM


AMEN to Father Sergy!

I cannot believe how many Christians believe that it is okay to blaspheme inside a church. Lord have mercy! We surely have become like animals and uncivilized!
Posted By: Recluse Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/26/12 02:49 AM
Originally Posted by StuartK
So, a Russian Orthodox, living in Russia, criticizes the political situation in Russia, and you call it bashing.
Of course. I'm sure I can find tens of thousands of Russian Orthodox, living in Russia, who see it quite different than this individual...and can give a fair and balanced account.

Originally Posted by StuartK
Which is really your way of saying any criticism of Russia is off the table entirely--Russia can do no wrong
I did not say that...you did. I said that it sounds like Russia-bashing to me.

Originally Posted by StuartK
(and why not? It is, after all "Holy Mother Russia", the "Third Rome" and New Jerusalem--says so on the label).
What's with all the bitterness and extreme sarcasm?

Originally Posted by StuartK
Why not try dealing with reality for a change. It's difficult and causes headaches, I know--but it's so much better than waking up with a Cool-Aid hangover.
Your anger and insults are completely uncalled for. I am sorry that I hit such a sore spot for you.
Posted By: Recluse Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/26/12 03:00 AM


Bravo! smile
Posted By: StuartK Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/26/12 12:49 PM
I surrender--you have all drunk the Cool-Aid, now you're going to have to live with the consequences. Some people have eyes but cannot-or will not-see.
Originally Posted by StuartK
I surrender--you have all drunk the Cool-Aid, now you're going to have to live with the consequences. Some people have eyes but cannot-or will not-see.


For what it's worth, Stuart, I agree with just about everything you've written in this thread.
Posted By: Lawrence Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/26/12 01:58 PM

P Riot and there Ukrainian counterparts Femen are sending out a message to the world that attacks upon Orthodox and Catholic institutions are now legitimate forms of protest.
Posted By: Recluse Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/26/12 07:46 PM
Originally Posted by StuartK
Some people have eyes but cannot-or will not-see.


Indeed.
Posted By: StuartK Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/26/12 08:18 PM
Remove then the beam from thine eye, before you point to the mote in my own.
Posted By: Recluse Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/26/12 11:56 PM
Originally Posted by StuartK
Remove then the beam from thine eye, before you point to the mote in my own.

Beautiful words to live by.
Posted By: StuartK Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/27/12 01:04 AM
Also, "Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set ye free". But first, it will make you very, very angry.
Posted By: Recluse Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/27/12 01:27 AM
Originally Posted by StuartK
Also, "Ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall set ye free".


Another classic! And don't forget this one since we are in Bible quote mode:

A fool uttereth all his mind: a wise man deferreth, and keepeth it till afterwards.
(Prov 29:11 DR)
Posted By: Administrator Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/27/12 01:57 AM
Some of the posts on this thread are just nutty. Russian Orthodoxy is holy but individual Russian Orthodox Christians (laymen and clergy) range from holy to heretic, from saint to devil. The current government is far better than communism but it’s certainly not holy. Everything there is subject to legitimate criticism, just as everything here is subject to legitimate criticism. It should not be seen as an attack against “Holy Russia”. To those of you who consider Russia to be a far better, far holier place to live than the United States or the cultural West, who deny a factual account of how things are there, I’d suggest acting on your beliefs. They are literally handing land away all across Russia to anyone willing to move there and work it.

As to the punk band “Pussy Riot”, they certainly should have the freedom to demonstrate against Putin. Their mistake was doing so in the altar of an Orthodox Church. But, from their position, Orthodoxy is no different than Putin because they act together.

I think the Russian Orthodox Church officials committed a mistake even bigger than the band who demonstrated in the altar. Imagine how different this could have turned out if whatever clergy was present simply invited the protestors to sit and chat to hear them out, and to tell them about Jesus in a loving manner. It’s an opportunity lost, because these protestors and those who join with them are now firmer in their belief that the Orthodox Church is merely a modern reincarnation of the KGB run Orthodox Church of the communist era.
Posted By: JDC Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/27/12 03:30 AM
Stuart: Kool-Aid, the tasty, popular, and reasonably priced drink crystals from Kraft Foods made infamous by the Jonestown cult mass-suicide, is actually spelled with a K. Kool-Aid. It's important.
Posted By: StuartK Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/27/12 03:33 AM
One doesn't want to get slammed for trademark infringement, though I suppose I could always write Kool-Aid (TM).
Posted By: Soson Kyrie Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/27/12 04:02 AM
If they did this in my parish I would have loudly and forcibly removed them (for that matter, were I at the cathedral when they were there I would have done the same. The fact that I would have been not Russian and not Orthodox would have made an amusing footnote to this).

That being said, I would never have supported their civil prosecution - here or there - and am opposed to blasphemy laws. I am also wary of any church affiliation with government or factions thereof. In my own Roman history this was a problem, and in cases like Patriarch Arsenius' controversial excommunication of Emperor Michael VIII (the very man who liberated the Queen of Cities from the crusader barbarians) I would have stood with the Patriarch. The even closer cooperation between church and government in Russian history has always struck me as uncomforting.
Posted By: jjp Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/27/12 04:05 AM
It was indeed an opportunity lost for the ROC - this protest has only highlighted the lack of daylight between Church and State in Russia (and is a prime example of why such separation a good thing - for the sake of the Church).

However, as has been outlined, we are not so far away as we like to pretend from such miscarriages of justice ourselves. That doesn't diminish criticism of Moscow, it is an impartial and moral response to those who feel we are immune.

Poke and prod a bit, and you can get highly educated Christian Americans to sound a lot like Putin himself, and that troubles me most.

Such miscarriages of justice ought to be condemned, period.
Posted By: Recluse Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/27/12 10:48 AM
Originally Posted by Administrator
Everything there is subject to legitimate criticism, just as everything here is subject to legitimate criticism.


Exactly.

Originally Posted by Administrator
It should not be seen as an attack against “Holy Russia”.

I have not seen where anyone is saying that it is an attack on Holy Russia. But when some poster accuses others of drinking the "Kool-aid" because of disagreement....that is unfortunate.

Originally Posted by Administrator
I think the Russian Orthodox Church officials committed a mistake even bigger than the band who demonstrated in the altar.


In my opinion....two years was a light sentence.

Originally Posted by Administrator
It’s an opportunity lost, because these protestors and those who join with them are now firmer in their belief that the Orthodox Church is merely a modern reincarnation of the KGB run Orthodox Church of the communist era.


These protesters and their supporters are radicals. I think that the jail sentence was adequate to quell their reprehensible behaviour. But once again....that is only my opinion.
Posted By: StuartK Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/27/12 12:48 PM
Kool-Aid, Kool-aid, tastes great.
Wish I had some, can't wait.

I guess that dates me a bit.
Posted By: StuartK Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/27/12 12:49 PM
Quote
Poke and prod a bit, and you can get highly educated Christian Americans to sound a lot like Putin himself, and that troubles me most.

Don't we have a lot of Christian Americans right on this forum parroting Putin?
Posted By: Alice Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/27/12 01:32 PM
I have received complaints about Stuart's taunting 'kool-aid' comments, so can he please 'kool' it with the 'kool-aid' taunts and save it for the playground?!? wink

As for me, I would just respond: 'sticks and stones may break my bones, but names will never hurt me'!

Alice,
Moderator
Posted By: StuartK Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/27/12 01:55 PM
Quid pro quo: No more Kool-Aid comments if I never see the term "Neo-Con" used on this forum again.
Posted By: Alice Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/27/12 02:09 PM
Stuart, Stuart, Stuart---*sigh*
Posted By: jjp Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/27/12 07:54 PM
Originally Posted by StuartK
Quote
Poke and prod a bit, and you can get highly educated Christian Americans to sound a lot like Putin himself, and that troubles me most.

Don't we have a lot of Christian Americans right on this forum parroting Putin?


We do, some parrot him defending Moscow's abuses, others in defending the USA's abuses.

No good either way.
Posted By: Anthony Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/28/12 10:19 PM
I agree with Stuart as well. I think these women should have just been fined and sentenced to some community service.

Originally Posted by Athanasius The L
Originally Posted by StuartK
I surrender--you have all drunk the Cool-Aid, now you're going to have to live with the consequences. Some people have eyes but cannot-or will not-see.


For what it's worth, Stuart, I agree with just about everything you've written in this thread.
Posted By: chadrook Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/29/12 01:23 PM
http://www.jpost.com/LandedPages/PrintArticle.aspx?id=282235

I like the addition of the Jewish angle.
Originally Posted by chadrook
http://www.jpost.com/LandedPages/PrintArticle.aspx?id=282235

I like the addition of the Jewish angle.



Spot on !!

Viking
Posted By: StuartK Re: Russian Punk Rock Band Sentenced - 08/29/12 05:41 PM
Quote
Thus free speech rights do not extend to private property.


Someone has not been paying attention or reading the things I posted (yes, that means YOU!). Christ the Savior Cathedral does not belong to the Russian Orthodox Church--it was built and paid for, and is owned by the Russian government. Like the original Christ the Savior, it was built by the government as a monument to itself and its relationship with the Church. As such, it is in fact a government building, and the Lithwick objection does not pertain.
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