www.byzcath.org

"Outside of Russia"

Posted By: Roman Interloper

"Outside of Russia" - 01/24/13 09:25 PM

In the first place, I beg everyone to pardon my ignorance. All of these things are relatively new to me and I'm only just beginning to learn.

In my area, there are three Russian Orthodox Churches. Two of them are under the same bishop but the third is under a different bishop and is not merely called a "Russian Orthodox Church" but a "Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia".

This "Outside of Russia" parish is different from the other two in that the church has no pews and nobody seems to be actually Russian, including the priest, who is 100% American with an Anglo-Saxon name.

Is this some sort of breakaway group from the original Russian Orthodox Church?
Posted By: Mariya DS

Re: "Outside of Russia" - 01/24/13 10:07 PM

Here is the information:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Orthodox_Church_Outside_Russia

In the United States, the number of ROCOR churches is significantly higher than Patriarchal churches. I belong to a Patriarchal church and avoid ROCOR.
Posted By: Alice

Re: "Outside of Russia" - 01/24/13 10:35 PM

Originally Posted by Mariya Diawara
Here is the information:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_Orthodox_Church_Outside_Russia

In the United States, the number of ROCOR churches is significantly higher than Patriarchal churches. I belong to a Patriarchal church and avoid ROCOR.


Why?
Posted By: chadrook

Re: "Outside of Russia" - 01/25/13 01:05 AM

Good question, why avoid ROCOR?
Posted By: 8IronBob

Re: "Outside of Russia" - 01/25/13 02:03 AM

Well, then there's the OCA, too, which seems to be a breakaway from the Russian Orthodox, too, iirc.
Posted By: Mariya DS

Re: "Outside of Russia" - 01/25/13 03:30 AM

Originally Posted by Alice
Why?

Because it's not my church, that's all. I know the two are reunited now, but it's a different organization, they have other hierarchs, why should I go there? I was baptized in MP and belong to MP.
Posted By: Fr David Straut

Re: "Outside of Russia" - 01/25/13 07:11 AM

Originally Posted by Mariya Diawara
Originally Posted by Alice
Why?

Because it's not my church, that's all. I know the two are reunited now, but it's a different organization, they have other hierarchs, why should I go there? I was baptized in MP and belong to MP.


frown And I thought we were the fanatics. wink But God bless you, Mariya. smile
Posted By: Mariya DS

Re: "Outside of Russia" - 01/25/13 12:56 PM

Originally Posted by Fr David Straut
frown And I thought we were the fanatics. wink But God bless you, Mariya. smile

Who are "we" and what do you mean by fanatics? God bless you too.
Posted By: chadrook

Re: "Outside of Russia" - 01/25/13 03:11 PM

Originally Posted by Mariya Diawara
Originally Posted by Alice
Why?

Because it's not my church, that's all. I know the two are reunited now, but it's a different organization, they have other hierarchs, why should I go there? I was baptized in MP and belong to MP.


Look, I am being up front with you. I only ask because I am interested in the "different organization," aspect. I am not looking to start a fight. I have seen this sort of division amongst the "unified Russian Church," and find it curious. I can remember rabid attacks from Bp. Jerome and Fr. John Whiteford on the synod list as to the complete compatibility and unification under the same hierarchy.
Posted By: Mariya DS

Re: "Outside of Russia" - 01/25/13 03:22 PM

Originally Posted by chadrook
Look, I am being up front with you. I only ask because I am interested in the "different organization," aspect. I am not looking to start a fight. I have seen this sort of division amongst the "unified Russian Church," and find it curious. I can remember rabid attacks from Bp. Jerome and Fr. John Whiteford on the synod list as to the complete compatibility and unification under the same hierarchy.


What fight, Chadrook? Is anyone fighting?

I never heard of any attacks and I do not know who Jerome and John Whiteford are. The only attacks I ever saw were bizarre comments about MP on some site called Remnant ROCOR, I asked my priest Fr. Stephen Kaznica about it and he told me to pay it no mind.

ROCOR is not a church to which I belong so I don't go there. There are Baptists and Southern Baptists, two separate entities, there is the Catholic Church and the Polish National Catholic church, two separate entities. there is the Anglican Church under the Archbishop of Canterbury and its gazillion splitoffs. I do not understand what the issue is in this thread.
Posted By: Fr David Straut

Re: "Outside of Russia" - 01/25/13 03:37 PM

Originally Posted by Mariya Diawara
Originally Posted by Fr David Straut
frown And I thought we were the fanatics. wink But God bless you, Mariya. smile

Who are "we" and what do you mean by fanatics? God bless you too.


I would have thought the context was obvious. "We" are the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia, of which I am a priest, and which you have decided to publicly announce that you "avoid."

I could ask you why you decided to use such a negative verb. People try to avoid contagious, dangerous, or unpleasant situations. I would never say that I try to avoid any Orthodox Christian Church or Jurisdiction though, Heaven knows, that I am not an uncritical person. For that matter, our (yours and my) presence here on this Forum proves that neither of us even avoids the Non-Orthodox. But I will not ask you, Mariya, because I do not really want to expose myself to poison. Suffice it to say that our (yours and my) Patriarch of blessed memory, Alexey II, did not believe the way you do, nor does our (yours and my) Patriarch, Kyrill, feel the way you do, nor do your current Hierarchs in North America (Archbishop Justinian in the United States) behave the way you do.

The reference to 'fanatics' is a historical reference to the way that the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia was often characterized (not without reason) by many Orthodox prior to the Act of Canonical Communion of Ascension Day 2007 which reunited the two sundered parts of the one Russian Orthodox Church.

By the way, you were baptised into Christ and His Body: the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church - the Orthodox Church - not into a Jurisdiction of the Church. But there I go, being a priest again.

May the Lord bless you, Mariya.

Archpriest David Straut
St Elizabeth the New Martyr Orthodox Church (ROCOR)
Rocky Hill, New Jersey, United States
www.saint-elizabeths.org
Posted By: Alice

Re: "Outside of Russia" - 01/25/13 03:45 PM

I agree with Father David, that the word 'avoid' was extremely negative and offensive to all Orthodox here, including me.

Hopefully, it was just a poor choice of word!

Alice,
Moderator
Posted By: Mariya DS

Re: "Outside of Russia" - 01/25/13 03:51 PM

Originally Posted by Fr David Straut
I would have thought the context was obvious. "We" are the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia, of which I am a priest

All of this was supposed to be obvious without an introduction? I must not be very bright...
Posted By: Mariya DS

Re: "Outside of Russia" - 01/25/13 04:02 PM

Originally Posted by Alice
I agree with Father David, that the word 'avoid' was extremely negative and offensive to all Orthodox here, including me.

Hopefully, it was just a poor choice of word!

Alice,
Moderator

Have some chocolate, you'll feel better.
Posted By: Fr David Straut

Re: "Outside of Russia" - 01/25/13 04:16 PM

Originally Posted by Mariya Diawara

Have some chocolate, you'll feel better.


Have some Christian Charity, Mariya. You'll feel better.

Fr David
Posted By: Mariya DS

Re: "Outside of Russia" - 01/25/13 04:42 PM

Fine, Father: I replace "avoid" with "do not attend" and I really hope I owe no further explanations or apologies for my choices.
Posted By: Fr David Straut

Re: "Outside of Russia" - 01/25/13 05:19 PM

Originally Posted by Mariya Diawara
Fine, Father: I replace "avoid" with "do not attend" and I really hope I owe no further explanations or apologies for my choices.


Great! Thank you for seeing our point. You're right: no need for further apologies. Oh wait, I guessed I missed the apology? No doubt it was my oversight.

Fr David
Posted By: chadrook

Re: "Outside of Russia" - 01/25/13 05:19 PM

Originally Posted by Mariya Diawara
Originally Posted by chadrook
Look, I am being up front with you. I only ask because I am interested in the "different organization," aspect. I am not looking to start a fight. I have seen this sort of division amongst the "unified Russian Church," and find it curious. I can remember rabid attacks from Bp. Jerome and Fr. John Whiteford on the synod list as to the complete compatibility and unification under the same hierarchy.


What fight, Chadrook? Is anyone fighting?

I never heard of any attacks and I do not know who Jerome and John Whiteford are. The only attacks I ever saw were bizarre comments about MP on some site called Remnant ROCOR, I asked my priest Fr. Stephen Kaznica about it and he told me to pay it no mind.

ROCOR is not a church to which I belong so I don't go there. There are Baptists and Southern Baptists, two separate entities, there is the Catholic Church and the Polish National Catholic church, two separate entities. there is the Anglican Church under the Archbishop of Canterbury and its gazillion splitoffs. I do not understand what the issue is in this thread.


Fair enough, I was just stating that I had no intention to start a fight. As you can see, others were offended. I was interested in why you didn't attend. I guess I keyed in on the very same word, avoid, as did the others yet for MUCH different reasons.

But I do have a question, has there not been any sort of outreach that you have seen? We always hear about OCA and ROCOR yet I don't hear much about the MP and ROCOR getting together. And I am not talking about clergy and the con-celebrations, but the laity.
Posted By: chadrook

Re: "Outside of Russia" - 01/25/13 05:27 PM

Originally Posted by Fr David Straut
Originally Posted by Mariya Diawara
Fine, Father: I replace "avoid" with "do not attend" and I really hope I owe no further explanations or apologies for my choices.


Great! Thank you for seeing our point. You're right: no need for further apologies. Oh wait, I guessed I missed the apology? No doubt it was my oversight.

Fr David


Now thats the ROCOR I remember!
Posted By: Mariya DS

Re: "Outside of Russia" - 01/25/13 05:32 PM

Originally Posted by Fr David Straut
Originally Posted by Mariya Diawara
Fine, Father: I replace "avoid" with "do not attend" and I really hope I owe no further explanations or apologies for my choices.


Great! Thank you for seeing our point. You're right: no need for further apologies. Oh wait, I guessed I missed the apology? No doubt it was my oversight.

Fr David


There wasn't any, I assure you - there word "further" was just my incorrect use of English.
Posted By: Mariya DS

Re: "Outside of Russia" - 01/25/13 05:37 PM

Originally Posted by chadrook

But I do have a question, has there not been any sort of outreach that you have seen? We always hear about OCA and ROCOR yet I don't hear much about the MP and ROCOR getting together. And I am not talking about clergy and the con-celebrations, but the laity.

There was a con-celebration at the 3 Saints Cathedral in New Jersey this winter, that's all I heard of.
Posted By: Mariya DS

Re: "Outside of Russia" - 01/25/13 05:47 PM

Also, Chadrook, as far as I know, plenty of people arriving from Russia go to ROCOR churches, OCA churches, and they feel completely at home. I don't think most Orthodox immigrants care about jurisdiction nuances one way or the other.
Posted By: Mariya DS

Re: "Outside of Russia" - 01/25/13 05:50 PM

Originally Posted by Mariya Diawara
Originally Posted by chadrook

But I do have a question, has there not been any sort of outreach that you have seen? We always hear about OCA and ROCOR yet I don't hear much about the MP and ROCOR getting together. And I am not talking about clergy and the con-celebrations, but the laity.

There was a con-celebration at the 3 Saints Cathedral in New Jersey this winter, that's all I heard of.

Which, I just remembered, was followed by a dinner for clergy, to which no laypeople were invited. So no, I am not aware of any lay people outreaches.
Posted By: Mariya DS

Re: "Outside of Russia" - 01/25/13 06:04 PM

Originally Posted by chadrook
As you can see, others were offended.

Folks like to get offended on this board. If someone is offended that I don't go to their church, it's their Mom who needs to comfort them, not me.
Posted By: Alice

Re: "Outside of Russia" - 01/25/13 06:07 PM

Originally Posted by Mariya Diawara
Originally Posted by chadrook
As you can see, others were offended.

Folks like to get offended on this board. If someone is offended that I don't go to their church, it's their Mom who needs to comfort them, not me.


Okay, that is enough. This thread is being closed for now until the Administrators view it.

Alice
Posted By: Irish Melkite

Re: "Outside of Russia" - 01/27/13 12:08 AM

ok - I don't like to get offended, nor do I like to offend, nor do I like others to be offended ... all of which may combine to make me a dreamer in a world where folks can't see one another and must, therefore, rely on their intellectual and emotional take on one another's words to interpret nuances. The problems and concerns and reactions voiced in this thread aren't unique to this forum, they are endemic to internet fora of all kinds - but, perhaps most especially, to religious fora.

That said, I'd really like to reopen this thread - with the goal being to address the OP's initial query and, because I enjoy historical discussion, and because I am a fan of both Father David and Mariya and trust in them to get by this and continue in their usual posting styles. So, it's reopened though I fully support Alice's wise decision to have locked it and let things simmer down.

Put in slightly different terms than he used, RI's query was about the hierarchical, canonical, and organizational structure of the Russian Orthodox community. It's not an uncommon type of query here - we see it pretty regularly - not uniquely directed toward our Russian brethren.

Persons who have 'come East' or are just becoming acquainted with the East are not infrequently baffled by our ecclesiastical divisions (and, please, no one read into my usage of 'divisions' any intent on my part to denigrate the canonical reunification of the MP and ROCOR). The fact is that even in rediscovered unity, we of the East not infrequently maintain parallel canonical structures. Why? As I've remarked on more than a single occasion, the word 'byzantine' can ofttimes be seen to describe more than our ritual praxis.

So, RI wants to know (or wanted to - notably, he has not posted on the thread since, probably sitting at his keyboard wondering what the heck he stepped into) why there are Russian Orthodox temples in his neighborhood which are differently denominated, have different hierarchs, are differently furnished, and are populated by congregations that appear to be different. To his credit, he came here to ask of 'the experts' - the persons in the pews (or not, depending on one's temple), rather than doing an internet search that might have have left him with more questions than answers or relying on Wikipedia - which can be very informative or misinformative, depending on the piece one is reading. Right now, RI is likely thinking that he might have been better off taking either of those routes, risks be damned.

Instead, he finds himself in the online ecclesial version of Jersey Shores, with two members, each of whom is typically notable for their thoughtful responses (and both of whom I'm inordinately fond of, for that very reason), battling it out over perceived slights to themselves or their respective Churches (which are actually one Church). Can we start again, please - leaving aside offensive terminology?

Let me offer a starting point ...

RI,

(What follows is a very simplistic explanation, I'll leave it to others to elaborate the details.)

Historically, beginning at the time of the Bolshevik Revolution and continuing over the subsequent couple of decades, divisions arose in the Russian Orthodox Church. These were prompted by: fears of what the political happenings in Russia meant for the Church; decisions on both sides of the Atlantic which were taken in response to those happenings; by the inability to communicate readily across those same bounds; and, regretably, in some cases by personal ambitions.

The end result was the erection of several different canonical structures, some of which (e.g., the Living Church) have mercifully disappeared from the landscape. The most prominent remaining jurisdictions were: the MP (Moscow Patriarchate); the Russian Metropolia, later retitled as ROCOR (Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia) - which, over the years had a few changes in name and also suffered further divisions within its own ranks; and, the OCA (Orthodox Church in America). (As an aside, along the way, each also absorbed into itself some of the Greek-Catholic parishes that parted from Catholicism over the trusteeship and/or married clergy issues. Mariya's parish is, I believe, the sole remaining MP parish to have a Greek-Catholic heritage. ROCOR has some and the OCA more.)

The MP and most, but not all, of ROCOR reunited in the recent past, with some formerly ROCOR parishes refusing to do so. The two maintain separate hierarchical structures. The OCA remains outside that union to date.

ROCOR has a history of being among the more 'traditional' Orthodox jurisdictions in its praxis (witness the lack of pews), but there are degrees in that from parish to parish. A significant number of converts to Holy Orthodoxy have been attracted to ROCOR by that 'traditionalism' (witness the non-Russian congregation you referenced).

There remain a small but strident remnant of non-canonical Russian Orthodox Churches that derived mainly from ROCOR, including HOCNA, ROAC - Russian Orthodox Autonomous Church (I'm pretty certain someone is still/again using that name, which was once an alternative name for ROCOR), and others - many of whom are now aligned with Old Calendrist jurisdictions. Those are essentially irrelevant to this discussion.

If you are interested in more of the historical details, I'm certain that Father David and Mariya can offer those.

Many years,

Neil
Posted By: Mariya DS

Re: "Outside of Russia" - 01/27/13 12:23 AM

Yes, our church remains the only MP church with Greek Catholic heritage! And despite our declining numbers we are bent on staying open and will continue serving our parishioners (I can say the word 'serving' too, since I'm a choir chanter). smile
Posted By: Irish Melkite

Re: "Outside of Russia" - 01/30/13 09:32 AM

I moved the posts relative to the "Patriarchate of Justice" and the "Byzantine Catholic Church, Inc., Independent Jurisdiction" to a new thread here in Town Hall titled 'The "Other Churches"' - so as to avoid causing any confusion to visitors who might happen on this thread and mistake them for EO or EC Churches.

Many years,

Neil
Posted By: Fr David Straut

Re: "Outside of Russia" - 01/30/13 06:34 PM

Originally Posted by Irish Melkite
I moved the posts relative to the "Patriarchate of Justice" and the "Byzantine Catholic Church, Inc., Independent Jurisdiction" to a new thread here in Town Hall titled 'The "Other Churches"' - so as to avoid causing any confusion to visitors who might happen on this thread and mistake them for EO or EC Churches.

Many years,

Neil

Thank you, Neil. I had no idea of what was going on.

Fr David Straut
Posted By: searn77

Re: "Outside of Russia" - 01/31/13 06:02 AM

Originally Posted by Mariya Diawara
Originally Posted by chadrook
Look, I am being up front with you. I only ask because I am interested in the "different organization," aspect. I am not looking to start a fight. I have seen this sort of division amongst the "unified Russian Church," and find it curious. I can remember rabid attacks from Bp. Jerome and Fr. John Whiteford on the synod list as to the complete compatibility and unification under the same hierarchy.


What fight, Chadrook? Is anyone fighting?

I never heard of any attacks and I do not know who Jerome and John Whiteford are. The only attacks I ever saw were bizarre comments about MP on some site called Remnant ROCOR, I asked my priest Fr. Stephen Kaznica about it and he told me to pay it no mind.

ROCOR is not a church to which I belong so I don't go there. There are Baptists and Southern Baptists, two separate entities, there is the Catholic Church and the Polish National Catholic church, two separate entities. there is the Anglican Church under the Archbishop of Canterbury and its gazillion splitoffs. I do not understand what the issue is in this thread.
The Remnant ROCOR website is a blog from a woman who is part of the ROCOR synod under Metropolitan Agafangel which rejected communion with the Moscow Patriarchate. Over the years ROCOR has experienced a handful of splits so that today there are I think 7 synods which derive from ROCOR, some of which still refer to themselves as ROCOR/ROCA. And of those 7 synods only 1 is in communion with the Moscow Patriarchate. So that would explain why the Remnant ROCOR website may have had "bizarre comments" regarding the MP.
Posted By: Mariya DS

Re: "Outside of Russia" - 01/31/13 04:35 PM

Originally Posted by searn77
So that would explain why the Remnant ROCOR website may have had "bizarre comments" regarding the MP.

Yeah, that does explain it.

I've lived in both Soviet Russia, post-Soviet Russia, and the United States. And you know there's nothing respectable about sitting in the free and cozy latter and throwing sticks at the former over the ocean.

I was born in Moscow in 1978 to a family of nonbelievers. I was baptized secretly at the Our Lady of Tikhvin in Moscow due to insistence of my great grandmother, a peasant from Vladimir Region, who said - you must baptize the girl or I can't pray for her. My mother could lose her job. She told me that the priest tried to make it very quick and unnoticeable, in the corner of the church when a lot of people were present, so as not to attract attention. I have no date, no certificate, no pictures.

When I was four, my family moved to Southwest Moscow. There were a few old village churches in the area, all of which were closed.

The first church in Moscow to be given back to the Church was the St. Michael the Archangel church in Troparevo. Prior it had been used as a storage facility. It was 1989. As soon as it opened, renovations began. The church was so crowded. Once in winter, I almost fainted in the church due to all the candles and people inside.

I took two buses to that church. Since then, others were reopened, and one brand new one built right on my street, in a little field where I used to play as a child.

St. Michael's was the church where I bought my first icon (Our Lady Comfort of all the Afflicted), was first told to fix my headscarf, took my first communions, made my first confessions, tried joining the choir, and asked endless questions. Father used to call me "the curious one."

Here is what St. Michael's looked like prior to renovation - I also remember it:

[Linked Image]

A sign on the door announcing the very first service - February 23, 1989 - Day of the Defender of the Homeland, very fitting for St. Michael:

[Linked Image]

And now:

[Linked Image]

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Slavipodvizhnik

Re: "Outside of Russia" - 01/31/13 05:05 PM

Wow, St Michaels was one of the first Churches I visited in Moscow! But for a reason that I cannot logically explain, with all the wonderful Churches now up and running in Moscow, I am drawn to Kazanskaya Sobor on the north east corner of Red Square. When I am in Moscow, that is where I will be for the daily Liturgy.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Mariya DS

Re: "Outside of Russia" - 01/31/13 06:07 PM

Beautiful!

If one day I can afford it, I will go to Moscow, then tour Russia and the Golden Ring. I left Russia in 1994 and since then visited twice: 2 weeks in 1997, and 2 weeks in 2005. frown
Posted By: Mariya DS

Re: "Outside of Russia" - 01/31/13 06:11 PM

Here is the church of St. Anastasia that they built on my street, in the little field by the woods where I used to play.

[Linked Image]
Posted By: Alice

Re: "Outside of Russia" - 01/31/13 06:20 PM

Thank you so much dear Mariya for sharing your story and memories of Russia.

May God bless you and your homeland forever!

Your sister in Christ,
Alice smile
Posted By: Mariya DS

Re: "Outside of Russia" - 01/31/13 07:10 PM

Thank you Alice, God bless you too. smile
Posted By: 8IronBob

Re: "Outside of Russia" - 01/31/13 08:35 PM

Well, my dream was to eventually travel throughout the whole Carpathian region through Ukraine, Romania, Serbia, Slovakia, Poland, Hungary, Belarus, Russia, etc... I know that's not very realistic, but seeing how things are in my neck of the woods with all the different Eastern Catholic and Orthodox parishes within blocks of each other, I thought, well, might see what the Church is like throughout Trans-Carpathia, and see what things are like in the old world.
Posted By: Mariya DS

Re: "Outside of Russia" - 01/31/13 08:44 PM

Russia has nothing to do with Carpathian Mountains.
Posted By: 8IronBob

Re: "Outside of Russia" - 01/31/13 08:46 PM

Oh, my bad, Russia was the Ural Mountains, but I thought they did connect somewhere on the northern edge of the Carpathians. Much like western parts of the Carpathians connected with the Alps.
Posted By: Mariya DS

Re: "Outside of Russia" - 01/31/13 09:06 PM

Oh okay. By the way did you know that in the Urals they make icons decorated with local stones of various colors? Looks like this:

[Linked Image]
Posted By: 8IronBob

Re: "Outside of Russia" - 01/31/13 09:56 PM

Wow. Almost more like a collage, I'm sure you won't see that in anything other than Russian Orthodox Churches.
Posted By: Mariya DS

Re: "Outside of Russia" - 01/31/13 10:43 PM

I wouldn't bet on it, I have the impression that all sacred art is becoming very creative in unprecedented ways, worldwide. smile
Posted By: chadrook

Re: "Outside of Russia" - 02/01/13 12:49 AM

Mariya, speaking of Icons. Do you know where the wonderful embroidered Icons are coming from? I am not talking about the hand made ones but the machine made ones. One of our parishioners returned from Russia with a roll of them and didn't have anyone back home that could send more. They were not from the usual suspects like Sofrinos. She reposed in the Lord before we could get more.
Posted By: 8IronBob

Re: "Outside of Russia" - 02/01/13 02:05 AM

Machine made? Hmm, I know it will keep the cost down on the church that needs them, but, I'm pretty much a traditionalist, and think that hand-painted icons are still the best way to go about it.
Posted By: chadrook

Re: "Outside of Russia" - 02/01/13 02:45 PM

For Russians of the Northern Thebaid they are traditional. Processional banners were and still are made with them. That is why I asked about the machine made ones, we already have handmade ones with all the gold, silver and stones. I need a less costly and less time consuming method as the old artisans die out.
Posted By: Mariya DS

Re: "Outside of Russia" - 02/01/13 06:20 PM

Northern Thebaid??? Oh, you mean the Vologda Region! grin

I looked it up and here is what I found. There exists a pretty big company in the city of Vologda which fulfills orders of machine embroidery or hand embroidery of whatever item the clients needs. Icons are included on the list of acceptable orders. The company name is Vologodskaya Vyshyvka, Ltd. The address is:

Russian Federation, Vologda Region, City of Vologda, Goncharnaya Street, 4-B.

Since I speak Russian, I can contact them for you and see if they can take an icon order from you and will find out the prices.



© 2019 The Byzantine Forum