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Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su

Posted By: 8IronBob

Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/20/13 01:29 AM

Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Support Greek Catholics

Quote

Metropolitan Hilarion (Alfeyev) of Volokolamsk of the Russian Orthodox Church expressed the hope that Pope Francis will continue the policy of rapprochement with the Orthodox Church and will not support, as he calls it, the expansion of the Ukrainian Greek Catholics, the site of Pravoslavie i Mir reports.

“The union is the most painful topic in the Orthodox-Catholic dialogue, in relations between the Orthodox and the Catholics. If the pope will support the union, then, of course, it will bring no good," he said in a program on the channel Rosiya-1.

One of Pope Francis’s teachers was a Ukrainian Greek Catholic priest, and the pope belongs to the Jesuit Order.

Metropolitan Hilarion noted that the Orthodox often had a suspicious attitude toward the Jesuits.

“It is believed that a Jesuit is someone who on the outside is one person, but inside someone else, says one thing, but means something else. This idea has been confirmed in real life by Jesuits and through our experience with such representatives,” said Metropolitan Hilarion.

He also said that the head of the Catholic Church must take care of the whole church and its relations with other churches, not protect the interests of a particular order or region.

“I hope that the positive momentum that we have had in our relations with the Roman Catholic Church under Pope Benedict XVI will continue under Pope Francis,” summed up the hierarch.


Source Link: http://risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/confessional/interchurch_relations/51644/

Thoughts on this. I'd say keep all Eastern Catholics in full union with the Vatican, don't try to break something that works, imo.
Posted By: Otsheylnik

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/20/13 04:19 AM

From whose perspetive does it work? As Met Alfeyev says, it doesn't work from a Moscow patriarchate point of view. The UGCC is the single largest barrier to the much vaunted meeting between Pope and patriarch.

I would also argue that the Ruthenian rite (not talking any other eastern Catholics here, just Ukrainian which are the main issue for Alfeyev) has not "worked" well from a Catholic point of view either. Witness the latinisms of the Union of Brest, the enforced celibacy, the revised Divine Liturgy, the split into ACROD, etc.
Posted By: Paul B

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/20/13 04:02 PM

Originally Posted by Otsheylnik
From whose perspetive does it work? As Met Alfeyev says, it doesn't work from a Moscow patriarchate point of view. The UGCC is the single largest barrier to the much vaunted meeting between Pope and patriarch.


My brother,

I'm saddened that after after six centuries that this is still such a critical issue. It gives the impression that lording over canonical territory is more pressing than united faith in Christ.
The esteemed Metropolitan has a local view; if he and others looked broader he would see that the issue isn't as focused as he assumes. Orthodoxy has its problems also, the MP and EP won't talk to each other and they also squabble over canonical territory and cause scandal of the Faith. Back at the time of the unions, where was the great Russian Orthodox Church at the time of our suffering? Why didn't they support our monasteries and faithful? The EP was under the thumb of the Moslems, why didn't the MP step up? They had no interest in us then.


Originally Posted by Otsheylnik

I would also argue that the Ruthenian rite (not talking any other eastern Catholics here, just Ukrainian which are the main issue for Alfeyev) has not "worked" well from a Catholic point of view either. Witness the latinisms of the Union of Brest, the enforced celibacy, the revised Divine Liturgy, the split into ACROD, etc.


We Eastern Catholics are well aware of the faults of communion with the large and powerful Church of Rome. And certainly it has been repeated over and over ad nauseam. The Bishop of Rome has compromised much more than the MP with regard to canonical territory. In our own USA the Eastern Church didn't exist but yet it sprung up and we eventually received a bishop, then two bishops. Now we have metropolitan bishops and at least six different Eastern Catholic Church co-exist in Roman dioceses. How well does the MP get along with the Ukrainian Orthodox or the Armenians? Yes, we have had unjust restrictions, but mostly we have been our own enemy through lack of charity or lack of our own leadership.

We eastern Catholics generally encourage the Roman See to seek unity with the Orthodox. In return Orthodoxy seeks our destruction. I think it's about time that they respect our faith, for it is the same as yours. Orthodoxy defies its spirit of brotherly love when it says we must die. Look beyond the past; look forward and plan for how the Eastern Catholics can be respectfully absorbed into the complete Eastern lung of the united Church.

Demanding preconditions and absolutes infers that the MP has no interest in union. The is no sense in wanting union with a Patriarch who wants to lord over you.
It is a total rejection of what Christ taught his disciples.
Posted By: Apotheoun

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/20/13 04:18 PM

I am not offended by Met. Hilarion's comments. I would expect an Orthodox prelate to be opposed to the unia.
Posted By: JBenedict

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/20/13 04:33 PM

I would expect an Orthodox prelate to be opposed to the unia.

As long as "Western Rite Orthodox" exist, I have trouble seeing the reason for the upset.
Posted By: Pavloosh

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/20/13 04:34 PM

That Russian bishop is insane if he actually believes that the Pope will abandon the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church.
What craziness! And he calls himself a Christian?
Posted By: Apotheoun

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/20/13 04:48 PM

Originally Posted by JBenedict
I would expect an Orthodox prelate to be opposed to the unia.

As long as "Western Rite Orthodox" exist, I have trouble seeing the reason for the upset.

The manner in which the two groups "Eastern Catholicism" and "Western Rite Orthodoxy" were created is very different, and as an Eastern Catholic I recognize the different origins of the two groups. If others choose not to that is their business. Orthodox and Catholics have not treated each other well, and they see things from different perspectives. Such is life.
Posted By: 8IronBob

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/20/13 08:00 PM

Now I wonder what Patriarch Kyrill himself would think of Metropolitan Hilarion's move here...that has yet to be seen. I'd say that Patriarch Kyrill would wind up having a few words with Metropolitan Hilarion for sure.
Posted By: eastwardlean?

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/20/13 08:31 PM

I think it's probably a lot more complicated than many of the posts allow.

It is no secret at all that the Ukranian Catholic Church represents a very big sticking point in relations between Rome and Moscow. I admit that Metropolitan Hilarion's comments seem a little 'hard-line,' but I am not surprised that he is trying to underline the importance of the issue for their side. He doubtless wants to communicate this loudly and clearly, since there is a new partner to the conversation. He is also likely aware that Pope Francis has some strong personal ties to Ukranian Catholics.
Posted By: Fr. Deacon Lance

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/20/13 08:37 PM

Originally Posted by Otsheylnik
From whose perspetive does it work?

It may come as a surprise but for many of us it works great.
Posted By: Fr. Deacon Lance

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/20/13 08:42 PM

Originally Posted by Apotheoun
I am not offended by Met. Hilarion's comments. I would expect an Orthodox prelate to be opposed to the unia.

You should be, that is the problem. One can be ecumenical with out being a doormat.
Posted By: Apotheoun

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/20/13 08:48 PM

Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance
Originally Posted by Apotheoun
I am not offended by Met. Hilarion's comments. I would expect an Orthodox prelate to be opposed to the unia.

You should be, that is the problem. One can be ecumenical with out being a doormat.

Evidently I'm just not as easily offended as some people. I wasn't offended when I was a High Church Anglican and Catholics told me that my Church was founded upon adultery and divorce, and that it was devoid of a real priesthood and eucharist. The Catholics who told me that really believed that to be so, and I didn't take offense when they said what they believed. As a Catholic I don't take offense when some of my Orthodox friends tell me that Catholic sacraments are devoid of grace, and that the Catholic Church is in heresy. It is what they believe, and I see no reason to be personally offended by their beliefs.

By the way, now when I talk to Anglicans, I tell them that I don't believe that their priesthood is valid or that their sacraments (other than baptism) are real. If they are personally offended too bad, because for me it is a matter of belief. I suppose, if I didn't believe what I was telling them, I would still be an Anglican.
Posted By: DMD

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/20/13 11:50 PM

Originally Posted by Otsheylnik
From whose perspetive does it work? As Met Alfeyev says, it doesn't work from a Moscow patriarchate point of view. The UGCC is the single largest barrier to the much vaunted meeting between Pope and patriarch.

I would also argue that the Ruthenian rite (not talking any other eastern Catholics here, just Ukrainian which are the main issue for Alfeyev) has not "worked" well from a Catholic point of view either. Witness the latinisms of the Union of Brest, the enforced celibacy, the revised Divine Liturgy, the split into ACROD, etc.


You forgot to mention St. Alexis (Toth) and the split into the Metropolia, now for the most part the OCA. St. Alexis was rector of the Greek Catholic seminary in Presov prior to immigrating to America.
Posted By: DMD

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/21/13 12:03 AM

Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance
Originally Posted by Apotheoun
I am not offended by Met. Hilarion's comments. I would expect an Orthodox prelate to be opposed to the unia.

You should be, that is the problem. One can be ecumenical with out being a doormat.



What he said was nothing new coming from Moscow so it isn't really news.

Is the restoration of the "status quo ante" property rights to be 1946 or 1590? That's the issue. Even though I am Orthodox I accept that 1946 is correct. Moscow holds to the earlier date which places them in the same boat as Greeks pining over the loss of Constantinople and Muslims mourning the expulsion of the Moors and the loss of Cordoba. That's the crux of it but both arguments are emotionally powerful and laced with Russo/Ukrainian politics as well.

Here is an interesting observation from a non Eastern Christian source: "One lung or two" - http://www.economist.com/blogs/erasmus/2013/03/orthodox-christians-and-catholics
Posted By: Apotheoun

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/21/13 12:27 AM

Originally Posted by DMD
Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance
Originally Posted by Apotheoun
I am not offended by Met. Hilarion's comments. I would expect an Orthodox prelate to be opposed to the unia.

You should be, that is the problem. One can be ecumenical with out being a doormat.



What he said was nothing new coming from Moscow so it isn't really news.

Is the restoration of the "status quo ante" property rights to be 1946 or 1590? That's the issue. Even though I am Orthodox I accept that 1946 is correct. Moscow holds to the earlier date which places them in the same boat as Greeks pining over the loss of Constantinople and Muslims mourning the expulsion of the Moors and the loss of Cordoba. That's the crux of it but both arguments are emotionally powerful and laced with Russo/Ukrainian politics as well.

Here is an interesting observation from a non Eastern Christian source: "One lung or two" - http://www.economist.com/blogs/erasmus/2013/03/orthodox-christians-and-catholics

To that list you can add the Catholics I have talked to who want to regain control of all the old Churches in England.
Posted By: jjp

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/21/13 03:22 AM

Somebody should ask Metropolitan Gennadios Zervos of The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Italy what his thoughts are on canonical territories and expansionism.

This stuff is so silly in the year 2013. The irony is that union would by definition end this controversy. The only logical conclusion is that the ROC has no interest in it. Feet firmly rooted in the past.
Posted By: chadrook

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/21/13 03:22 AM

Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance
Originally Posted by Apotheoun
I am not offended by Met. Hilarion's comments. I would expect an Orthodox prelate to be opposed to the unia.

You should be, that is the problem. One can be ecumenical with out being a doormat.


Why is this any surprise? He is simply restating the position of the MP. Unless something changed, it has always been the same. So I guess you are re-offended?
Posted By: chadrook

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/21/13 03:27 AM

Originally Posted by jjp
Somebody should ask Metropolitan Gennadios Zervos of The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Italy what his thoughts are on canonical territories and expansionism.

This stuff is so silly in the year 2013. The irony is that union would by definition end this controversy. The only logical conclusion is that the ROC has no interest in it. Feet firmly rooted in the past.


Union at any cost? And no, it is not the only logical conclusion, just a very one sided conclusion. And it is a complement for a Church to have its "feet firmly rooted in the past."
Posted By: Fr. Deacon Lance

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/21/13 04:02 AM

Originally Posted by chadrook
Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance
Originally Posted by Apotheoun
I am not offended by Met. Hilarion's comments. I would expect an Orthodox prelate to be opposed to the unia.

You should be, that is the problem. One can be ecumenical with out being a doormat.


Why is this any surprise? He is simply restating the position of the MP. Unless something changed, it has always been the same. So I guess you are re-offended?


No surprise. I just thought maybe Pope Francis could have got more than a week in before Met. Hilarion started with this broken record again.
Posted By: IAlmisry

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/21/13 04:02 AM

Originally Posted by Paul B
Originally Posted by Otsheylnik
From whose perspetive does it work? As Met Alfeyev says, it doesn't work from a Moscow patriarchate point of view. The UGCC is the single largest barrier to the much vaunted meeting between Pope and patriarch.


My brother,

I'm saddened that after after six centuries that this is still such a critical issue. It gives the impression that lording over canonical territory is more pressing than united faith in Christ.
The esteemed Metropolitan has a local view; if he and others looked broader he would see that the issue isn't as focused as he assumes. Orthodoxy has its problems also, the MP and EP won't talk to each other and they also squabble over canonical territory and cause scandal of the Faith. Back at the time of the unions, where was the great Russian Orthodox Church at the time of our suffering? Why didn't they support our monasteries and faithful? The EP was under the thumb of the Moslems, why didn't the MP step up? They had no interest in us then.

Who is "we"?

You've heard of the Golden Horde? The Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth? The Kingdom of Hungary? Some obstacles in the way of expressing "interest."
Originally Posted by Paul B

Originally Posted by Otsheylnik

I would also argue that the Ruthenian rite (not talking any other eastern Catholics here, just Ukrainian which are the main issue for Alfeyev) has not "worked" well from a Catholic point of view either. Witness the latinisms of the Union of Brest, the enforced celibacy, the revised Divine Liturgy, the split into ACROD, etc.

We Eastern Catholics are well aware of the faults of communion with the large and powerful Church of Rome. And certainly it has been repeated over and over ad nauseam. The Bishop of Rome has compromised much more than the MP with regard to canonical territory. In our own USA the Eastern Church didn't exist but yet it sprung up and we eventually received a bishop, then two bishops. Now we have metropolitan bishops and at least six different Eastern Catholic Church co-exist in Roman dioceses. How well does the MP get along with the Ukrainian Orthodox
The UOC-MP gets along quite fine, hence the "-MP"
Originally Posted by Paul B

or the Armenians?

Fine AFAIK. You heard otherwise?

Originally Posted by Paul B

Yes, we have had unjust restrictions, but mostly we have been our own enemy through lack of charity or lack of our own leadership.

We eastern Catholics generally encourage the Roman See to seek unity with the Orthodox. In return Orthodoxy seeks our destruction. I think it's about time that they respect our faith, for it is the same as yours.

Only if your bishops are in our diptychs.
Originally Posted by Paul B

Orthodoxy defies its spirit of brotherly love when it says we must die. Look beyond the past; look forward and plan for how the Eastern Catholics can be respectfully absorbed into the complete Eastern lung of the united Church.

can you thresh out the difference between absorption and "destruction"?
Originally Posted by Paul B

Demanding preconditions and absolutes infers that the MP has no interest in union. The is no sense in wanting union with a Patriarch who wants to lord over you.

Yes, the lesson of Lyons II and Florence.
Originally Posted by Paul B

It is a total rejection of what Christ taught his disciples.

We have a thread here on Pastor Aeternus somewhere?
Posted By: IAlmisry

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/21/13 04:05 AM

Originally Posted by JBenedict
I would expect an Orthodox prelate to be opposed to the unia.

As long as "Western Rite Orthodox" exist, I have trouble seeing the reason for the upset.

Do have the same trouble seeing the difference between duress and accommodation?
Posted By: IAlmisry

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/21/13 04:07 AM

Originally Posted by Pavloosh
That Russian bishop is insane if he actually believes that the Pope will abandon the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church.
What craziness! And he calls himself a Christian?
and why shouldn't his eminence?
Posted By: IAlmisry

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/21/13 04:10 AM

Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance
Originally Posted by Apotheoun
I am not offended by Met. Hilarion's comments. I would expect an Orthodox prelate to be opposed to the unia.

You should be, that is the problem. One can be ecumenical with out being a doormat.

Whose door is that mat in front of, Fr. Deacon?
Posted By: IAlmisry

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/21/13 04:12 AM

Originally Posted by Apotheoun
Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance
Originally Posted by Apotheoun
I am not offended by Met. Hilarion's comments. I would expect an Orthodox prelate to be opposed to the unia.

You should be, that is the problem. One can be ecumenical with out being a doormat.

Evidently I'm just not as easily offended as some people. I wasn't offended when I was a High Church Anglican and Catholics told me that my Church was founded upon adultery and divorce, and that it was devoid of a real priesthood and eucharist. The Catholics who told me that really believed that to be so, and I didn't take offense when they said what they believed. As a Catholic I don't take offense when some of my Orthodox friends tell me that Catholic sacraments are devoid of grace, and that the Catholic Church is in heresy. It is what they believe, and I see no reason to be personally offended by their beliefs.

By the way, now when I talk to Anglicans, I tell them that I don't believe that their priesthood is valid or that their sacraments (other than baptism) are real. If they are personally offended too bad, because for me it is a matter of belief. I suppose, if I didn't believe what I was telling them, I would still be an Anglican.
which explains why you are not: you believe what you say, and say what you believe. Unambiguously.
Posted By: IAlmisry

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/21/13 04:18 AM

Originally Posted by jjp
Somebody should ask Metropolitan Gennadios Zervos of The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Italy what his thoughts are on canonical territories and expansionism.

Why?
Originally Posted by jjp

This stuff is so silly in the year 2013.

Why? Have canonical jurisdictions and boundaries been done away with?
Originally Posted by jjp

The irony is that union would by definition end this controversy.

Oh? How's that.
Originally Posted by jjp

The only logical conclusion is that the ROC has no interest in it.

Not quite.
Originally Posted by jjp

Feet firmly rooted in the past.

Better than wobbly legs disconnected from their past.
Posted By: IAlmisry

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/21/13 04:22 AM

Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance
Originally Posted by chadrook
Originally Posted by Fr. Deacon Lance
Originally Posted by Apotheoun
I am not offended by Met. Hilarion's comments. I would expect an Orthodox prelate to be opposed to the unia.

You should be, that is the problem. One can be ecumenical with out being a doormat.


Why is this any surprise? He is simply restating the position of the MP. Unless something changed, it has always been the same. So I guess you are re-offended?


No surprise. I just thought maybe Pope Francis could have got more than a week in before Met. Hilarion started with this broken record again.

I don't recall exactly: was Major Archbishop enthroned as Major Archbishop or Patriarch? L'viv or in Kiev?

Btw, I noticed the inaugral mass (is that the term now?) had Russian, but I didn't see any Ukrainian. Did I miss it?
Posted By: jjp

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/21/13 05:08 AM

Originally Posted by IAlmisry
Originally Posted by jjp
Somebody should ask Metropolitan Gennadios Zervos of The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Italy what his thoughts are on canonical territories and expansionism.

Why?


Because he's a learned man. No other reason having to do with churches having a presence in another church's cannonical territory.

Quote

Originally Posted by jjp

This stuff is so silly in the year 2013.

Why? Have canonical jurisdictions and boundaries been done away with?


See above.

Originally Posted by jjp

The irony is that union would by definition end this controversy.

Oh? How's that.
[/quote]

Because they would all be Ukranian Christians united in one church.

Quote

Originally Posted by jjp

The only logical conclusion is that the ROC has no interest in it.

Not quite.


Quite. Just own it, so much better to be straight forward. The holy monks on Mt Athos would agree, there's no shame in not desiring unity if it is based on principle, misguided though it may be. Hot or cold is always better than lukewarm.

Quote

Originally Posted by jjp

Feet firmly rooted in the past.

Better than wobbly legs disconnected from their past.


When the past is one of pain and bitterness, not at all. Wobbly legs can strengthen. It takes work and a desire to accomplish, which I see little evidence of.

On the flip side... Give the Russians Ukraine in return for communion and call them all Catholic... Who cares? Keeping two ancient, holy and apostolic churches separated over a local spat is silly.
Posted By: jjp

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/21/13 05:10 AM

Originally Posted by chadrook
Originally Posted by jjp
Somebody should ask Metropolitan Gennadios Zervos of The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Italy what his thoughts are on canonical territories and expansionism.

This stuff is so silly in the year 2013. The irony is that union would by definition end this controversy. The only logical conclusion is that the ROC has no interest in it. Feet firmly rooted in the past.


Union at any cost? And no, it is not the only logical conclusion, just a very one sided conclusion. And it is a complement for a Church to have its "feet firmly rooted in the past."


What cost?
Posted By: IAlmisry

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/21/13 11:27 AM

Originally Posted by jjp
Originally Posted by IAlmisry
Originally Posted by jjp
Somebody should ask Metropolitan Gennadios Zervos of The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Italy what his thoughts are on canonical territories and expansionism.

Why?


Because he's a learned man. No other reason having to do with churches having a presence in another church's cannonical territory.

We already have the thoughts of one learned man on the matter, namely Metropolitan Hilarion's. Any reason we should abandon his eminence's for anything Met. Gennadios has to say on the matter?

Originally Posted by jjp
Originally Posted by IAlmisry

Originally Posted by jjp

This stuff is so silly in the year 2013.

Why? Have canonical jurisdictions and boundaries been done away with?


See above.

Anything in particular I should be sifting for?

Originally Posted by jjp
Originally Posted by IAlmisry

Originally Posted by jjp

The irony is that union would by definition end this controversy.

Oh? How's that.

Because they would all be Ukranian Christians united in one church.

So all the Latin ordinaries will pack up and leave?

Originally Posted by jjp
Originally Posted by IAlmisry

Originally Posted by jjp

The only logical conclusion is that the ROC has no interest in it.

Not quite.

Quite. Just own it, so much better to be straight forward. The holy monks on Mt Athos would agree, there's no shame in not desiring unity if it is based on principle, misguided though it may be. Hot or cold is always better than lukewarm.

It seems all the complaining is that the ROC is too hot for some people, and it's not going to let cold water be thrown on it for someone else's idea of unity that was rejected back in 1441.

Originally Posted by jjp
Originally Posted by IAlmisry

Originally Posted by jjp

Feet firmly rooted in the past.

Better than wobbly legs disconnected from their past.

When the past is one of pain and bitterness, not at all.

When you walk down a path of pain and bitterness, you learn not to wander off down it again. Or you should.
Originally Posted by jjp

Wobbly legs can strengthen. It takes work and a desire to accomplish, which I see little evidence of.

perhaps you just don't desire what you see.

Originally Posted by jjp

On the flip side... Give the Russians Ukraine in return for communion and call them all Catholic... Who cares? Keeping two ancient, holy and apostolic churches separated over a local spat is silly.

What local spat would that be?

We don't believe in "two" apostolic churches, we confess the Faith in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Antiquity plays no role in it whatsoever.
Posted By: JBenedict

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/21/13 02:24 PM

Originally Posted by IAlmisry
Originally Posted by JBenedict
I would expect an Orthodox prelate to be opposed to the unia.

As long as "Western Rite Orthodox" exist, I have trouble seeing the reason for the upset.

Do have the same trouble seeing the difference between duress and accommodation?


You think the Ukranian Catholic Church exists today because its members are under duress?
Posted By: chadrook

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/21/13 04:10 PM

Originally Posted by jjp
Originally Posted by chadrook
Originally Posted by jjp
Somebody should ask Metropolitan Gennadios Zervos of The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Italy what his thoughts are on canonical territories and expansionism.

This stuff is so silly in the year 2013. The irony is that union would by definition end this controversy. The only logical conclusion is that the ROC has no interest in it. Feet firmly rooted in the past.


Union at any cost? And no, it is not the only logical conclusion, just a very one sided conclusion. And it is a complement for a Church to have its "feet firmly rooted in the past."


What cost?


Unless I misunderstand you, I get the impression that union is at the forefront of any matter. And all problems should be overlooked for the sake of union. Why not ask a simple question, does the dear Metropolitan believe the church is divided?
Posted By: chadrook

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/21/13 04:35 PM

Originally Posted by jjp
Originally Posted by chadrook
Originally Posted by jjp
Somebody should ask Metropolitan Gennadios Zervos of The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Italy what his thoughts are on canonical territories and expansionism.

This stuff is so silly in the year 2013. The irony is that union would by definition end this controversy. The only logical conclusion is that the ROC has no interest in it. Feet firmly rooted in the past.


Union at any cost? And no, it is not the only logical conclusion, just a very one sided conclusion. And it is a complement for a Church to have its "feet firmly rooted in the past."


What cost?


Now you have been around for some time. Is that a question or a statement of personal belief? I can understand it, if it is your personal belief, but not all share it. And before we get into dredging up all of the old arguments, I do believe this is a non-story. Of course there is the other sides perspective and ignoring it creates a story.
Posted By: IAlmisry

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/21/13 07:55 PM

Originally Posted by JBenedict
Originally Posted by IAlmisry
Originally Posted by JBenedict
I would expect an Orthodox prelate to be opposed to the unia.

As long as "Western Rite Orthodox" exist, I have trouble seeing the reason for the upset.

Do have the same trouble seeing the difference between duress and accommodation?


You think the Ukranian Catholic Church exists today because its members are under duress?

Not relevant: the WRO never existed because they were under duress.
Posted By: 8IronBob

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/21/13 08:11 PM

Well, let's not forget the history that Pope Francis and Patriarch Sviatoslav had back in their days in Argentina. They've been good, long-standing friends and I think they did serve together, if I remember history well enough. Maybe that might have been what Metropolitan Hilarion was jealous about, due to that bias, supposedly. I still wonder what Patriarch Kyrill thinks about this whole thing, since he is Metropolitan Hilarion's superior.
Posted By: eastwardlean?

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/21/13 08:43 PM

Originally Posted by IAlmisry

Not relevant: the WRO never existed because they were under duress.


Certainly not irrelevant, to be fair. It's not only fair but also essential to point out that the Ukranian Catholic Church was dissolved only under duress, and that this experience is one of the obstacles--or difficulties, at least--in imagining a reunion and one of the factors behind the current difficulties.

But, I agree with your more basic point--the Western Rite Orthodox and the Eastern Catholic Churches are not really equivalent.
Posted By: eastwardlean?

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/21/13 08:52 PM

Originally Posted by 8IronBob
Well, let's not forget the history that Pope Francis and Patriarch Sviatoslav had back in their days in Argentina.


I think you are right that the close personal history of Pope Francis with the UGCC probably has something to do with just how quick and forceful Metropolitan Hilarion's comments were.
Posted By: Otsheylnik

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/21/13 09:47 PM

Originally Posted by 8IronBob
Well, let's not forget the history that Pope Francis and Patriarch Sviatoslav had back in their days in Argentina. They've been good, long-standing friends and I think they did serve together, if I remember history well enough. Maybe that might have been what Metropolitan Hilarion was jealous about, due to that bias, supposedly. I still wonder what Patriarch Kyrill thinks about this whole thing, since he is Metropolitan Hilarion's superior.


He agrees entirely. http://risu.org.ua/en/index/all_news/confessional/interchurch_relations/46561/
Posted By: eastwardlean?

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/21/13 10:05 PM

Originally Posted by Otsheylnik

He agrees entirely.


I agree that Metropolitan Hilarion's remarks agree substantially with Patriarch Kirill's, though I do think the tone is different. (And, His Holiness may propose a somewhat more measured requirement--'"conflicts need to be resolved more energetically, if not fully..." for a productive meeting to take place.)
Posted By: jjp

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/21/13 10:23 PM

Originally Posted by chadrook
Originally Posted by jjp
Originally Posted by chadrook
Originally Posted by jjp
Somebody should ask Metropolitan Gennadios Zervos of The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Italy what his thoughts are on canonical territories and expansionism.

This stuff is so silly in the year 2013. The irony is that union would by definition end this controversy. The only logical conclusion is that the ROC has no interest in it. Feet firmly rooted in the past.


Union at any cost? And no, it is not the only logical conclusion, just a very one sided conclusion. And it is a complement for a Church to have its "feet firmly rooted in the past."


What cost?


Now you have been around for some time. Is that a question or a statement of personal belief? I can understand it, if it is your personal belief, but not all share it. And before we get into dredging up all of the old arguments, I do believe this is a non-story. Of course there is the other sides perspective and ignoring it creates a story.


It's a question.
Posted By: Otsheylnik

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/21/13 10:43 PM

I think the real reason for the tone of Met. Hilarion's remarks is that he is perceived by some Orthodox as being sympathetic to Greek Catholics; thus he goes in harder on them in public statements to prop up his internal reputation.
Posted By: jjp

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/21/13 10:43 PM

Originally Posted by IAlmisry
Originally Posted by jjp
Originally Posted by IAlmisry
Originally Posted by jjp
Somebody should ask Metropolitan Gennadios Zervos of The Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of Italy what his thoughts are on canonical territories and expansionism.

Why?


Because he's a learned man. No other reason having to do with churches having a presence in another church's cannonical territory.

We already have the thoughts of one learned man on the matter, namely Metropolitan Hilarion's. Any reason we should abandon his eminence's for anything Met. Gennadios has to say on the matter?

Originally Posted by jjp
Originally Posted by IAlmisry

Originally Posted by jjp

This stuff is so silly in the year 2013.

Why? Have canonical jurisdictions and boundaries been done away with?


See above.

Anything in particular I should be sifting for?


The answer to your question.

Quote

Originally Posted by jjp
Originally Posted by IAlmisry

Originally Posted by jjp

The irony is that union would by definition end this controversy.

Oh? How's that.

Because they would all be Ukranian Christians united in one church.

So all the Latin ordinaries will pack up and leave?


Why would they need to if they were part of the newly unified church?

Quote

Originally Posted by jjp
Originally Posted by IAlmisry

Originally Posted by jjp

The only logical conclusion is that the ROC has no interest in it.

Not quite.

Quite. Just own it, so much better to be straight forward. The holy monks on Mt Athos would agree, there's no shame in not desiring unity if it is based on principle, misguided though it may be. Hot or cold is always better than lukewarm.

It seems all the complaining is that the ROC is too hot for some people, and it's not going to let cold water be thrown on it for someone else's idea of unity that was rejected back in 1441.


You don't have to read so much into it. What's the point of kicking out all the Catholics, Latin or otherwise, only to then unite with them after the fact? Let's call a spade a spade, unity to the Russians means becoming Orthodox, period.

Quote

Originally Posted by jjp
Originally Posted by IAlmisry

Originally Posted by jjp

Feet firmly rooted in the past.

Better than wobbly legs disconnected from their past.

When the past is one of pain and bitterness, not at all.

When you walk down a path of pain and bitterness, you learn not to wander off down it again. Or you should.
Originally Posted by jjp

Wobbly legs can strengthen. It takes work and a desire to accomplish, which I see little evidence of.

perhaps you just don't desire what you see.


That's true enough of what I am looking at here.

Quote

Originally Posted by jjp

On the flip side... Give the Russians Ukraine in return for communion and call them all Catholic... Who cares? Keeping two ancient, holy and apostolic churches separated over a local spat is silly.

What local spat would that be?


The one we're talking about, Ukraine.

Quote

We don't believe in "two" apostolic churches, we confess the Faith in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.


Then why the worry about canonical territories?

Because you see only the Orthodox Church as the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, and any outside of it (including other Orthodox) as outside the faith. Union, therefore, means coming to your side of the fence.

Again, let's just call a spade a spade, it makes things so much simpler.
Posted By: 8IronBob

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/21/13 11:28 PM

Well, then again, there are Russian Greek-Catholics, too, what would their take be in all this? That's going to be interesting to see what happens there...
Posted By: IAlmisry

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/21/13 11:48 PM

Originally Posted by jjp
Originally Posted by IAlmisry
Originally Posted by jjp

See above.

Anything in particular I should be sifting for?


The answer to your question.

I don't have any questions, as Met. Hilarion left none.


Originally Posted by jjp
Originally Posted by IAlmisry

Originally Posted by jjp

Because they would all be Ukranian Christians united in one church.

So all the Latin ordinaries will pack up and leave?


Why would they need to if they were part of the newly unified church?

Why are they there now, outside of the UGCC in their present unified communion with the "supreme authority of the church" they recognize in Pastor Aeternus?

Originally Posted by jjp
Originally Posted by IAlmisry

It seems all the complaining is that the ROC is too hot for some people, and it's not going to let cold water be thrown on it for someone else's idea of unity that was rejected back in 1441.

You don't have to read so much into it. What's the point of kicking out all the Catholics, Latin or otherwise, only to then unite with them after the fact? Let's call a spade a spade, unity to the Russians means becoming Orthodox, period.

The Fathers of the Ecumenical Councils set that standard: why should the Russians-or any Orthodox Catholic-abandon it?


Originally Posted by jjp
Originally Posted by IAlmisry

Originally Posted by jjp

Wobbly legs can strengthen. It takes work and a desire to accomplish, which I see little evidence of.

perhaps you just don't desire what you see.

That's true enough of what I am looking at here.

Well, can't help you there.

Originally Posted by jjp
Originally Posted by IAlmisry

Originally Posted by jjp

On the flip side... Give the Russians Ukraine in return for communion and call them all Catholic... Who cares? Keeping two ancient, holy and apostolic churches separated over a local spat is silly.

What local spat would that be?

The one we're talking about, Ukraine.

No spat: we're all agreed that at present Ukraine belongs to the Patriarchate of Moscow.

Originally Posted by jjp
Originally Posted by IAlmisry

We don't believe in "two" apostolic churches, we confess the Faith in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Then why the worry about canonical territories?

The good order of the Church (taxis) set up by the Apostles and Fathers.

Originally Posted by jjp

Because you see only the Orthodox Church as the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, and any outside of it (including other Orthodox) as outside the faith. Union, therefore, means coming to your side of the fence.

Again, let's just call a spade a spade, it makes things so much simpler.

I do nothing but, and I don't even have to ask Met. Gennadios.
Posted By: eastwardlean?

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/21/13 11:58 PM

At some point, it'd be nice if we could agree to talk to each other, rather than past each other. Essential for dialogue.
Posted By: DMD

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/22/13 12:50 AM

Originally Posted by eastwardlean?
At some point, it'd be nice if we could agree to talk to each other, rather than past each other. Essential for dialogue.


Many of us do try to do just that.
Posted By: Utroque

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/22/13 01:20 AM

Originally Posted by DMD
Originally Posted by eastwardlean?
At some point, it'd be nice if we could agree to talk to each other, rather than past each other. Essential for dialogue.


Many of us do try to do just that.


Papa Franceso is leading the way and setting a good example for us all. Apparently the Orthodox and Oriental Orthodox representatives who've attended the Installation have been staying at the same residence as the pope, and he is having breakfast and dining with them daily. Did we ever think we'd see the day?

Table Talk
Posted By: eastwardlean?

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/22/13 01:29 AM

Originally Posted by Otsheylnik
I think the real reason for the tone of Met. Hilarion's remarks is that he is perceived by some Orthodox as being sympathetic to Greek Catholics; thus he goes in harder on them in public statements to prop up his internal reputation.


Interesting point, Otsheylnik. There are often multiple audiences behind what we say.
Posted By: jjp

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/22/13 02:03 AM

Originally Posted by IAlmisry
Originally Posted by jjp
Originally Posted by IAlmisry
Originally Posted by jjp

See above.

Anything in particular I should be sifting for?


The answer to your question.

I don't have any questions, as Met. Hilarion left none.

Originally Posted by IAlmisry

Anything in particular I should be sifting for?


Are you talking in circles on purpose or does it just happen on accident??

Quote

Originally Posted by jjp
Originally Posted by IAlmisry

Originally Posted by jjp

Because they would all be Ukranian Christians united in one church.

So all the Latin ordinaries will pack up and leave?


Why would they need to if they were part of the newly unified church?

Why are they there now, outside of the UGCC in their present unified communion with the "supreme authority of the church" they recognize in Pastor Aeternus?


You didn't answer my question.

Quote

Originally Posted by jjp
Originally Posted by IAlmisry

It seems all the complaining is that the ROC is too hot for some people, and it's not going to let cold water be thrown on it for someone else's idea of unity that was rejected back in 1441.

You don't have to read so much into it. What's the point of kicking out all the Catholics, Latin or otherwise, only to then unite with them after the fact? Let's call a spade a spade, unity to the Russians means becoming Orthodox, period.

The Fathers of the Ecumenical Councils set that standard: why should the Russians-or any Orthodox Catholic-abandon it?


You didn't answer my question.

Quote

Originally Posted by jjp
Originally Posted by IAlmisry

Originally Posted by jjp

On the flip side... Give the Russians Ukraine in return for communion and call them all Catholic... Who cares? Keeping two ancient, holy and apostolic churches separated over a local spat is silly.

What local spat would that be?

The one we're talking about, Ukraine.

No spat: we're all agreed that at present Ukraine belongs to the Patriarchate of Moscow.


You aught to let Met. Hilarion in on that, otherwise his comments about expansion will seem awkwardly out of place.

Quote

Originally Posted by jjp
Originally Posted by IAlmisry

We don't believe in "two" apostolic churches, we confess the Faith in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

Then why the worry about canonical territories?

The good order of the Church (taxis) set up by the Apostles and Fathers.


Orthodox bicker about these issues all the time (OCA vis-a-vis the GOA and ROC) without breaking communion. That alone is no excuse here.

Quote

Originally Posted by jjp

Because you see only the Orthodox Church as the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, and any outside of it (including other Orthodox) as outside the faith. Union, therefore, means coming to your side of the fence.

Again, let's just call a spade a spade, it makes things so much simpler.

I do nothing but, and I don't even have to ask Met. Gennadios.


That isn't what I suggested asking him.
Posted By: jjp

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/22/13 02:13 AM

Again, not necessarily picking bones with the Orthodox.

Let the Catholics give in to all arguments of "territory" and unite so that they made fade into one anyways.
Posted By: IAlmisry

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/22/13 05:05 AM

Originally Posted by jjp

Are you talking in circles on purpose or does it just happen on accident??

I don't know: did you open your rabbit hole under Met. Gennadios' name on purpose?

Originally Posted by jjp

You didn't answer my question.

There is no answer to your question: within Orthodoxy all the bishops of Ukraine are under the Metropolitan of Kiev and All Ukraine, because they are in communion with him and the rest of Orthodoxy.

Under the Vatican, the Major Archbishop (who claims he is a patriarch, despite what his supreme pontiff says) has his bishops in Ukraine and elsewhere outside of Urkaine, there's a separate bishop in Zakarpatia directly under the Vatican, alongside a host of Latin bishops-including one for Kiev, and for good measure an Armenian bishop in L'viv under a catholicos in Lebanon, although they are all in communion with each other. If you want a justification/excuse for why that is (dis)organized, you will have to ask their "font of unity" for it.

Originally Posted by jjp
Originally Posted by IAlmisry
Originally Posted by jjp

You don't have to read so much into it. What's the point of kicking out all the Catholics, Latin or otherwise, only to then unite with them after the fact? Let's call a spade a spade, unity to the Russians means becoming Orthodox, period.

The Fathers of the Ecumenical Councils set that standard: why should the Russians-or any Orthodox Catholic-abandon it?

You didn't answer my question.

Yes, I did. You just didn't like the answer.

Originally Posted by jjp
Originally Posted by IAlmisry

No spat: we're all agreed that at present Ukraine belongs to the Patriarchate of Moscow.

You aught to let Met. Hilarion in on that, otherwise his comments about expansion will seem awkwardly out of place.

Oh? What particular comments would seem "awkwardly out of place", as His Eminence points to expansion-or even the existence-of the UGCC as being "awkardly out of place."

Originally Posted by jjp
Originally Posted by IAlmisry

Originally Posted by jjp

Then why the worry about canonical territories?

The good order of the Church (taxis) set up by the Apostles and Fathers.


Orthodox bicker about these issues all the time (OCA vis-a-vis the GOA and ROC) without breaking communion.

So did the Apostles and Fathers.
Originally Posted by jjp

That alone is no excuse here.

I gave you the reason. You will have to ask someone else for excuses. Do be specific as to what you want excused.


Originally Posted by jjp
Originally Posted by IAlmisry

Originally Posted by jjp

Because you see only the Orthodox Church as the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, and any outside of it (including other Orthodox) as outside the faith. Union, therefore, means coming to your side of the fence.

Again, let's just call a spade a spade, it makes things so much simpler.

I do nothing but, and I don't even have to ask Met. Gennadios.

That isn't what I suggested asking him.

I suggest you first tell us-spit it out-what a Metropolitan in Italy has anything to do with Ukraine: you are aware that they are two separate nations (and Churches), no?
Posted By: StuartK

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/22/13 11:06 AM

I reiterate what I said earlier. I love the Orthodox Church. I am glad you are Orthodox. But why do you have to be such a jerk?
Posted By: IAlmisry

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/22/13 01:14 PM

Originally Posted by StuartK
I reiterate what I said earlier. I love the Orthodox Church. I am glad you are Orthodox. But why do you have to be such a jerk?

Is that addressed to Met. Hilarion?
Posted By: DMD

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/22/13 01:20 PM

Originally Posted by IAlmisry
Originally Posted by StuartK
I reiterate what I said earlier. I love the Orthodox Church. I am glad you are Orthodox. But why do you have to be such a jerk?

Is that addressed to Met. Hilarion?


Come on all, it's Lent for all of us at least until tomorrow. wink Play nice.
Posted By: Epiphanius

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/22/13 01:37 PM

Originally Posted by IAlmisry
Originally Posted by jjp
Keeping two ancient, holy and apostolic churches separated over a local spat is silly.


What local spat would that be?


The same one as between the MP and the UOC-KP/UAOC.


Originally Posted by IAlmisry
We don't believe in "two" apostolic churches, we confess the Faith in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.


True, the Church is one. This only means that these man-made divisions must cease.
Posted By: JBenedict

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/22/13 02:16 PM

I suggest you first tell us-spit it out-what a Metropolitan in Italy has anything to do with Ukraine: you are aware that they are two separate nations (and Churches), no?

Because it makes no sense to complain about Catholic impinging on Orthodox canonical territory while establishing churches in Rome, in London, etc.
Posted By: IAlmisry

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/22/13 03:39 PM

Originally Posted by JBenedict
I suggest you first tell us-spit it out-what a Metropolitan in Italy has anything to do with Ukraine: you are aware that they are two separate nations (and Churches), no?

Because it makes no sense to complain about Catholic impinging on Orthodox canonical territory while establishing churches in Rome, in London, etc.

I'll hold off replying until jjp (the OP) answers.

But in the meantime, on London: you have heard of the Act of Supremacy, no?
Posted By: IAlmisry

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/22/13 03:46 PM

Originally Posted by Epiphanius
Originally Posted by IAlmisry
Originally Posted by jjp
Keeping two ancient, holy and apostolic churches separated over a local spat is silly.


What local spat would that be?


The same one as between the MP and the UOC-KP/UAOC.

You mean UOC-MP and the rest of Orthodoxy. Exactly (don't forget the Pidhirtsi Fathers and their "Ukrainian Orthodox Greek Catholic Church" and the "Priestly Society of St. Josaphat" as well).

Originally Posted by Epiphanius

Originally Posted by IAlmisry
We don't believe in "two" apostolic churches, we confess the Faith in the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.


True, the Church is one. This only means that these man-made divisions must cease.

Exactly.
Posted By: chadrook

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/22/13 04:04 PM

It might be me, but it sounds like several people are calling for Syncretism.
Posted By: StuartK

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/22/13 05:54 PM

Quote
Is that addressed to Met. Hilarion?


No, that would be you, Isa. You not only deliberately go out of your way to annoy the Catholics, you also annoy your Orthodox brethren.

As for Metropolitan Hilarion, he has a job to do as foreign secretary of the Patriarch Synod of Moscow, so I would expect him to do no more or less than express the official position of the Church of Moscow.

You, however, consistently demonstrate a cavalier disregard for both truth and charity.
Posted By: IAlmisry

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/22/13 08:28 PM

Is this ex cathedra?
Originally Posted by StuartK
Quote
Is that addressed to Met. Hilarion?


No, that would be you, Isa. You not only deliberately go out of your way to annoy the Catholics, you also annoy your Orthodox brethren.

As for Metropolitan Hilarion, he has a job to do as foreign secretary of the Patriarch Synod of Moscow, so I would expect him to do no more or less than express the official position of the Church of Moscow.

You, however, consistently demonstrate a cavalier disregard for both truth and charity.

Like this?
Originally Posted by Pavloosh
That Russian bishop is insane if he actually believes that the Pope will abandon the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church.
What craziness! And he calls himself a Christian?
Posted By: jjp

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/22/13 11:02 PM

Originally Posted by IAlmisry
Originally Posted by jjp

Are you talking in circles on purpose or does it just happen on accident??

I don't know: did you open your rabbit hole under Met. Gennadios' name on purpose?


I think you do it on purpose, but I can't understand what you think it accomplishes. That's not a question, so feel free to ignore.

Quote

Originally Posted by jjp

You didn't answer my question.

There is no answer to your question: within Orthodoxy all the bishops of Ukraine are under the Metropolitan of Kiev and All Ukraine, because they are in communion with him and the rest of Orthodoxy.


If you can't answer why Latin ordinaries would need to leave Ukraine after establishing communion with them then why do you propose it?

Quote
...Because they would all be Ukranian Christians united in one church.

So all the Latin ordinaries will pack up and leave?


Quote

Under the Vatican, the Major Archbishop (who claims he is a patriarch, despite what his supreme pontiff says) has his bishops in Ukraine and elsewhere outside of Urkaine, there's a separate bishop in Zakarpatia directly under the Vatican, alongside a host of Latin bishops-including one for Kiev, and for good measure an Armenian bishop in L'viv under a catholicos in Lebanon, although they are all in communion with each other. If you want a justification/excuse for why that is (dis)organized, you will have to ask their "font of unity" for it.


How Catholics organize themselves in Ukraine is irrelevant. Their presence would suddenly be no problem to you if they organized themselves in a manner you approved of? The obfuscation is growing tiresome to weed through.

Quote

Originally Posted by jjp
Originally Posted by IAlmisry
Originally Posted by jjp

You don't have to read so much into it. What's the point of kicking out all the Catholics, Latin or otherwise, only to then unite with them after the fact? Let's call a spade a spade, unity to the Russians means becoming Orthodox, period.

The Fathers of the Ecumenical Councils set that standard: why should the Russians-or any Orthodox Catholic-abandon it?

You didn't answer my question.

Yes, I did. You just didn't like the answer.


Only due to its evasiveness. Why no direct answers? I am purposely keeping these separate quote strings intact so that onlookers can see my documented attempts to get a straight response. I am realizing that it is an exercise in futility.

Quote
Originally Posted by jjp
Originally Posted by IAlmisry

No spat: we're all agreed that at present Ukraine belongs to the Patriarchate of Moscow.

You aught to let Met. Hilarion in on that, otherwise his comments about expansion will seem awkwardly out of place.

Oh? What particular comments would seem "awkwardly out of place", as His Eminence points to expansion-or even the existence-of the UGCC as being "awkardly out of place."


His Eminence does not take into account Orthodox bishops "awkwardly out of place" next door to the Vatican. Since you refuse to connect my dots, that is why I originally wondered aloud what Metropolitan Gennadios thought about it.

Originally Posted by jjp
Originally Posted by IAlmisry

Originally Posted by jjp

Then why the worry about canonical territories?

The good order of the Church (taxis) set up by the Apostles and Fathers.


Quote

Orthodox bicker about these issues all the time (OCA vis-a-vis the GOA and ROC) without breaking communion.

So did the Apostles and Fathers.
Originally Posted by jjp

That alone is no excuse here.

I gave you the reason. You will have to ask someone else for excuses. Do be specific as to what you want excused.


The reason that the Orthodox bicker amongst themselves about canonical territories is because the Apostles did? What a wonderful way to honor their legacy.

Quote

Originally Posted by jjp
Originally Posted by IAlmisry

Originally Posted by jjp

Because you see only the Orthodox Church as the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church, and any outside of it (including other Orthodox) as outside the faith. Union, therefore, means coming to your side of the fence.

Again, let's just call a spade a spade, it makes things so much simpler.

I do nothing but, and I don't even have to ask Met. Gennadios.

That isn't what I suggested asking him.

I suggest you first tell us-spit it out-what a Metropolitan in Italy has anything to do with Ukraine: you are aware that they are two separate nations (and Churches), no?


I thought they were a part of the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. Unless that is just the Russians now?

The more you eat your cake, the less of it you have left.
Posted By: StuartK

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/22/13 11:43 PM

Well, that wasn't put as felicitously as one might have, but in essence, there is truth there. The unfortunate part is Pavloosh doesn't quite understand Metropolitan Hiliarion's job, nor did he correctly interpret what Metropolitan Hilarion said. But, if you read the article the way Pavloosh did, then a hypothetical "insane" is just rhetorical hyperbole.

On the other hand, you, like the Church of Moscow, refuses to recognize Orthodox complicity in the suppression of the Greek Catholic Churches in Ukraine, Czechoslovakia and Romania in the late 1940s, insisting that the kangaroo synods arranged by the NKVD were authentic expressions of Greek Catholic sentiment. That I do consider a cavalier disregard for the truth, and a fundamentally un-Christian act.

Then there is your insistence that the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church (and, I would assume, the Carpatho-Rusyn Greek Catholic, the Romanian Greek Catholic and the Melkite Greek Catholic Churches--all exist because of "compulsion". That shows either ignorance of the complex history of uniatism (and I don't think you are stupid or ignorant), a just a determination to ignore history and indulge in stale and factually incorrect polemics for the sake of making points. Either way, it's not a pretty picture.
Posted By: StuartK

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/23/13 12:36 PM

Now, a rather more objective and ecumenical tone can be found in the writing of David Bentley Hart's The Myth of Schism.
Posted By: Pavloosh

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/23/13 12:56 PM

Wish you'd speak everyday English so you could be understood.
What are you trying to say?
Also, please tell us what Met. Hillarion's job actually entails and what is the correct interpretation of what he said. Seems to me that he lives in LaLa Land!
Posted By: chadrook

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/23/13 03:16 PM

"On the other hand, you, like the Church of Moscow, refuses to recognize Orthodox complicity in the suppression of the Greek Catholic Churches in Ukraine, Czechoslovakia and Romania in the late 1940s, insisting that the kangaroo synods arranged by the NKVD were authentic expressions of Greek Catholic sentiment. That I do consider a cavalier disregard for the truth, and a fundamentally un-Christian act."

I think the MP knows exactly what it is doing. But there seems to be a rather large gray area in the concept of suppression on their part. It is just hard for the Catholics to stomach to fact that the MP does not like the Unia.
Posted By: eastwardlean?

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/23/13 05:16 PM

That isn't really hard for me to stomach that Moscow doesn't like the unia.

It is hard to stomach the lack of sensitivity to the UGCC's experience of suppression and persecution. Indeed, it is still possible to hear Orthodox polemicists referring to the 'synods' that dissolved the EC churches, for example, as somehow settling contemporary disputes over church property, and I think that really should shock and scandalize everyone, including Orthodox believers. I think Moscow really does need to acknowledge the suffering and witness of this church and express some regret for the lack of sensitivity and even complicity of some of its own members. On the other hand, the property disputes really are lamentable and certainly don't vindicate the EC's. Indeed, if the MP's worries since the 80's and 90's has been precisely a muscular and expansionist Catholic presence in its homeland, then it seems fair to ask if the posture and conduct of the UGCC hasn't sometimes confirmed these fears.

I think that Moscow would certainly appreciate some acknowledgment that the situation is irregular. Ideally, that would come from not only Rome but also from the UGCC. Restored communion between 'sister churches' would not include a large, Ukranian church either somehow under the Roman partiarchate or in its own jurisdiction separate from the unity of other Christians in Ukraine. A church with restored communion on the global scale would presumably require one Ukranian church, (including Latins and the other two Orthodox jurisdictions there.)

We are certainly 'not there yet' and perhaps very, very far from it, but that might be a helpful way to contextualize the various smaller decisions and deliberations as they negotiate this strained and imperfect reality.



Posted By: Irish Melkite

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/25/13 03:41 AM

One warning and one only - if the tone and tenor of discussion doesn't significantly improve, this thread - which is far removed at this point from being either news or an analysis of same (and is verging on heading to the Town Hall forum) will be locked.

It is, if no one on either side of this argumentation has noted it, the Paschal Season in all of the Apostolic Churches and we are, none of us, far removed from Forgiveness Sunday, on which we begged forgiveness of one another and, following Christ's lead, forgave one another.

Whether the historical concept of the Ukrainian Church(es) being ecclesiastically subject to the Russian patriarchate ought to continue given Ukraine's present status, in which it no longer politically owes fealty to Russia, is an example par excellance of the intertwining of nationhood, nationality, ethnicity, culture, and faith that has and continues to bedevil our Churches. That mankind cannot back away from disputation over who among its unworthy selves ought to be the controlling entity in an enterprise which is God's is a sad commentary on our failure to recognize and accept that we are little but temporal caretakers and that the 100% Shareholder cannot be pleased at the time devoted to such machinations versus that which could be devoted to the infinitely more important and mandated task of bringing people to Him.

Many years,

Neil
Posted By: Pavloosh

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/25/13 10:44 AM

However, forgiveness appears to be a one-way street. The UGCC has reached out to the ROC for forgiveness, yet the ROC has turned a deaf ear.
Posted By: chadrook

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/25/13 01:35 PM

Originally Posted by Irish Melkite
One warning and one only - if the tone and tenor of discussion doesn't significantly improve, this thread - which is far removed at this point from being either news or an analysis of same (and is verging on heading to the Town Hall forum) will be locked.

It is, if no one on either side of this argumentation has noted it, the Paschal Season in all of the Apostolic Churches and we are, none of us, far removed from Forgiveness Sunday, on which we begged forgiveness of one another and, following Christ's lead, forgave one another.

Whether the historical concept of the Ukrainian Church(es) being ecclesiastically subject to the Russian patriarchate ought to continue given Ukraine's present status, in which it no longer politically owes fealty to Russia, is an example par excellance of the intertwining of nationhood, nationality, ethnicity, culture, and faith that has and continues to bedevil our Churches. That mankind cannot back away from disputation over who among its unworthy selves ought to be the controlling entity in an enterprise which is God's is a sad commentary on our failure to recognize and accept that we are little but temporal caretakers and that the 100% Shareholder cannot be pleased at the time devoted to such machinations versus that which could be devoted to the infinitely more important and mandated task of bringing people to Him.

Many years,

Neil


I really hoped that this website would be the one last place that open dialog could take place. I understand a desire for a certain civility but at what cost? When a subject comes up that there are distinct differences this seems to always be the result.
Posted By: IAlmisry

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/25/13 02:52 PM

Originally Posted by Pavloosh
However, forgiveness appears to be a one-way street. The UGCC has reached out to the ROC for forgiveness, yet the ROC has turned a deaf ear.

Oh? What are you referring to?
Posted By: Pavloosh

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/25/13 11:50 PM

This is a good example of what I am referring to:

http://www.ewtnnews.com/catholic-news/World.php?id=2961
Posted By: Nelson Chase

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/26/13 02:50 AM

Quote
Oh? What are you referring to?


Well here is the current head of the UGCC from the article posted:

Quote

I would like very much to visit him [Patriarch Kyril] and hold a personal meeting with him. I am convinced that in peacefully and openly communicating with each other, we can relieve any tension,” Archbishop Sviatoslav said in an interview. “Our Church has voiced its readiness and openness for a dialogue ever since it emerged from the underground.


The article also mentions past leaders of the UGCC expressing the exact same thing.

Quote
"I think that today, we should heal the wounds rather than irritate and deepen them. One can heal the wounds of our memory only with mutual forgiveness,” Archbishop Sviatoslav remarked. “Therefore, as for any our brethren or neighbors who wounded us or were wounded by us, the best way to communicate is to be open in a brotherly dialogue, be open to the purification of our memory, to ask for forgiveness and to forgive."


Why can't the ROC and UOC-MP express the same sentiments? Asking forgiveness is the true sign of a Christian. Mutual forgiveness is a wonderful thing and with the Great Fast just starting for those on the Julian Calendar (both Orthodox and Greek Catholic) it would be a wonderful time for mutual forgiveness.
Posted By: IAlmisry

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/26/13 04:49 AM

Originally Posted by Pavloosh
This is a good example of what I am referring to:

http://www.ewtnnews.com/catholic-news/World.php?id=2961

This?
Quote
He recalled the comments of his predecessor Cardinal Myroslav Ivan, who said, “We forgive and ask for forgiveness.”
“It was a very deep call to reconciliation on his part,” the archbishop explained. “It was in the 1990s, at the time of the strongest confrontation, particularly in western Ukraine. There was the will for reconciliation on our part.”

As I recall at the time, actions were speaking louder than that "very deep call to reconciliation." Particularly odd, as the cardinal never lived in the Soviet Union until its final months, long after-
Quote
Under Soviet rule, Eastern Catholic priests and faithful were routinely arrested, martyred for the faith, or generally forced to go underground. Church property was usurped by the Orthodox Church and Catholics operated under heavy restrictions.

None of which isn't equally, if not more, applicable to the Orthodox. That's glossed over, along with the Revindication Campaigns of the Second Polish Republic doing the same before the Soviets took over. That includes "Church property was usurped": no Church owned any property in the Soviet Union (proletariat ownership of the means of production/abolition of private property and all that). Did the Orthodox Church take advantage of what Churches the Soviets allowed to be open for Divine Services? Sure-would you prefer them to have been used for barns and barracks or museums of atheism, as many were? Much of the property still has not been returned. IIRC, we had a thread on that fact on the Pochaiv Lavra.

The situation has more complexities than are being admitted here (and touching on the "sanity" of His Eminence over support in the Vatican for Major Arbp. Shevchuk). Such as:
Quote
When we asked UOC-KP Bishop of L'viv Andrii (Horak) why he thought that the Vatican did not counter Patriarch Aleksi' s accusations, he replied: 'The Vatican never complained in 1946 either. Maybe because it is the promoter of the accusations.' Patriarch Filaret of the UOC-KP explained to us that 'The Vatican's current policy is to leave the Greek Catholics alone. They are a barrier to dialogue with the Moscow Patriarchate and therefore the Vatican is not supporting Uniatism.' Maintaining links with Moscow, he thought, was also the motivation behind not highlighting the activities of the UOC-KP in Galicia: 'That would mean recognising that the UOC-KP is the largest Orthodox jurisdiction in western Ukraine and upsetting the Moscow Patriarchate.'
Greek Catholic Bishop Yulian Gbur confirmed the Vatican's reluctance to involve other Orthodox jurisdictions in the dispute over western Ukraine: 'Rome allows us to talk only to the Moscow Patriarchate, because the others are not canonical - although they are closer to us.' L'viv Roman Catholic priest Fr Andrzej Legowicz confirmed this. He explained to us that the Vatican would have to come to an official agreement with the Moscow Patriarchate that the conflict with the Greek Catholics was over before it could make a public statement to that effect.
Several of our interviewees felt that the Greek Catholics had been abandoned by Rome. The head of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church's Department for External Church Relations Ihor Ozhievs'kyi cited to us the absence of direct financial support for his church from the Vatican. The funding which had permitted the extensive church construction we had observed in L'viv and Ternopil' oblasti had come, he said, from two German-based Catholic charities, 'Aid to the Church in Need' and 'Renovabis', as well as from the US Catholic Bishops' Conference - but not from Rome. The Vatican, he maintained, was terrified 'that we will destroy the system which has developed within the Catholic Church', since in effect the Greek Catholic
Church was a 'local church', and the Catholic Church 'does not recognise local churches'.
In Patriarch Filaret's view, the Greek Catholics already sensed that 'Rome does not need them any more'. Greek Catholic village priest Fr Ihor Fedorishin told us that in his view the Roman Catholic Church was a quite separate structure. The Greek Catholic union with the Vatican, he maintained, was purely symbolic, 'just as the Moscow Patriarchate is symbolically subordinate to Constantinople'...
Whatever its policy towards them might be, the Vatican's failure to lend public support to the Greek Catholics in Galicia is being rewarded by complete silence over Roman Catholic activity in central Ukraine. According to the Ukrainian Centre for Economic and Political Studies, the Roman Catholic Church had 324 registered religious communities in Zhytomir, Vinnytsa and Khmel'nyts'kyi oblasti as of 1 January 2000 (the Greek Catholic figure for the same area is just 29). Viktor Bondarenko told us that the Roman Catholics were the fastest growing of the traditional churches in Ukraine. Surprisingly, Patriarch Filaret assured Keston that the Roman Catholic Church was ministering to 'its own people' in these regions. He did not complain about this activity precisely because it was being conducted among Poles, he said, although earlier in our interview with him he mentioned that in Ukraine Roman Catholics were 'trying to attract Orthodox'. Although the language of Roman Catholics in L'viv is frequently Polish, Fr Legowicz told us that as far west as the city of Ternopil' - where we noted that a large Roman Catholic church was being constructed - masses are celebrated in Ukrainian and not Polish. Archbishop Mitrofan (Yurchuk) of the UOC-MP told us that the Roman Catholic Church was very active in Ukraine and brought in numerous missionaries from Poland. When he agreed that most Poles in Ukraine were by now completely russified (or
ukrainified), we asked him why the UOC-MP did not complain about Roman Catholic activity in the country's central regions. 'We have no problems with Roman Catholics' , he replied...
Declining to name specific regions, Viktor Bondarenko complained to us that his national committee did not have control over local committees for religious affairs, 'which is totally wrong because we now see blocs forming, uniting local authorities with the dominant church in the area'. It appears that Roman Catholics get a raw deal from the local authorities in Galicia, where Greek Catholicism predominates. On 23 September an elderly parishioner in the Roman Catholic cathedral in central L'viv told us, with obvious resentment, that all but two of the city's 36 pre-Second World War Roman Catholic churches had been 'given to autocephalists, Greek Catholics and Baptists. The authorities did not return them to us even though we wanted them.' The Greek Catholic Church currently holds more than 40 churches in the city.
According to Zhaborinskaya, the large neo-Gothic former Roman Catholic church of SS Olga and Elizabeth near L'viv railway station has been given to the Greek Catholics, while a former Roman Catholic church two doors up from the UOC-MP church in L'viv has been taken over by a community of Seventh-Day Adventists. Fr Andrzej Legowicz confirmed to us that a Roman Catholic community was given permission to celebrate mass in SS Olga and Elizabeth in the mid-1990s, but that this decision was subsequently overturned by the local authorities, who then handed the church to the Greek Catholics. Although Fr Legowicz claimed not to know about the Adventist church, he added that the Roman Catholics had failed to recover their former seminary building in L'viv - now a Greek Catholic church - and that the
present Roman Catholic seminary was approximately 20 miles outside the city. Elsewhere in L'viv oblast', he said, the Roman Catholic community in the village of Riashne had been refused permission to build for the past five years, while in the village of Komame the Greek Catholics had taken all three church buildings and the Roman Catholics were now obliged to celebrate mass in the village cemetery. In his view the L'viv authorities were 'trying to control the number of Roman Catholic churches'...In L'viv, he claimed, 'we do
not have any Roman Catholics'. Abbot Venedikt (Aleksichuk) suggested to us that two churches in central L'viv were enough for the city's Roman Catholics since 'there are no Poles here any more'. We also encountered a cool attitude towards the Roman Catholic Church at the 'Anisiya' church credit union, where general manager Volodymyr Sydorovs'kyi explained that the union 'works with all traditional confessions of the region' - but not Roman Catholics: 'only churches of the eastern rite' .
In fact, the large number of former Roman Catholic church buildings in the city testifies to a tradition established during recent centuries of Polish rule, curtailed when Soviet troops occupied the region during the Second World War and those of Polish nationality were deported westwards in Operation Wisla. Sixty years on, however, resentment of former Polish domination coupled with fear of a resurgence of polonisation fuels both hostility towards Roman Catholicism - which many Ukrainians fuse with Polish identity - and nationalist feeling within the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church as it seeks to preserve its own identity.
According to Fr Legowicz, Roman and Greek Catholics used to attend each others' churches before the Second World War, but now Greek Catholic priests sometimes forbid their parishioners to attend Roman Catholic churches: 'The Greek Catholics are viewed as a Ukrainian church, the Roman Catholics as Polish.' This clear demarcation of nationality was reflected in the words of one woman leaving the Roman Catholic cathedral in L'viv: she apologetically remarked to us that she liked the church very much and attended it 'even though' she was Ukrainian...The village priest Fr Ihor Fedorishin later told us that he believed the latinisation of Greek Catholics to be the aim of Poland rather than of the Vatican, 'because then it will be easier for Poland to take this territory'.

http://www.biblicalstudies.org.uk/pdf/rss/29-3_207.pdf
Although over a decade old, I don't know if it can be said that it is dated.

But back to your "example":
Quote
“I think that today, we should heal the wounds rather than irritate and deepen them. One can heal the wounds of our memory only with mutual forgiveness,” Archbishop Sviatoslav remarked. “Therefore, as for any our brethren or neighbors who wounded us or were wounded by us, the best way to communicate is to be open in a brotherly dialogue, be open to the purification of our memory, to ask for forgiveness and to forgive.”

I would be very curious as to what wounds the Major Archbishop admits to and is confessing. As to the Patriarch
Quote
Defending one thing, it was necessary to give somewhere else. Were there any other organizations, or any other people among those who had to carry responsibility not only for themselves but for thousands of other fates, who in those years in the Soviet Union were not compelled to act likewise? Before those people, however, to whom the compromises, silence, forced passivity or expressions of loyalty permitted by the leaders of the church in those years caused pain, before these people, and not only before God, I ask forgiveness, understanding and prayers.

"A long walk to church: a contemporary history of Russian orthodoxy." Nathaniel Davis p. 84.
Posted By: Pavloosh

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/26/13 11:52 AM

Nice try! All your post did was to skirt the real issue.

Apparently, the selfrighteous Moscow based ROC will never ask for forgiveness. It's mentality is still that of the middle ages.
Posted By: JimG

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/26/13 12:13 PM

Why is this thread posted on two different topics. Administrator, shouldn't it be removed from this one?
Posted By: IAlmisry

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/26/13 01:45 PM

Originally Posted by Pavloosh
Nice try! All your post did was to skirt the real issue.

...what wound the major archbishop was owning up to and confessing?

Originally Posted by Pavloosh

Apparently, the selfrighteous

hey! watch it with that log!
Originally Posted by Pavloosh

Moscow based ROC will never ask for forgiveness.

Originally Posted by IAlmisry

Quote
Defending one thing, it was necessary to give somewhere else. Were there any other organizations, or any other people among those who had to carry responsibility not only for themselves but for thousands of other fates, who in those years in the Soviet Union were not compelled to act likewise? Before those people, however, to whom the compromises, silence, forced passivity or expressions of loyalty permitted by the leaders of the church in those years caused pain, before these people, and not only before God, I ask forgiveness, understanding and prayers.

"A long walk to church: a contemporary history of Russian orthodoxy." Nathaniel Davis p. 84.

Originally Posted by Pavloosh

It's mentality is still that of the middle ages.

No, antiquity.
Posted By: Diak

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/26/13 02:33 PM

So what would our options be for reunification? Recent scenarions include having saints decanonized (ROCOR-MP reunion), having bishops busted to "auxiliary" status (Antiochian), being embroiled in heated jurisdictional conflicts (most recently Jerusalem-Antioch), and being the second largest particular Orthodox Church and being considered "without grace" (UOC-KP situation).

Many Years to His Beatitude, our Patriarch +Sviatoslav.
Posted By: IAlmisry

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/26/13 02:51 PM

Originally Posted by Diak
So what would our options be for reunification? Recent scenarions include having saints decanonized (ROCOR-MP reunion), having bishops busted to "auxiliary" status (Antiochian), being embroiled in heated jurisdictional conflicts (most recently Jerusalem-Antioch), and being the second largest particular Orthodox Church and being considered "without grace" (UOC-KP situation).

LOL. I'll deal with this later, Lord willing, but in the meantime I thought I'd point out that you demonstrate that we are not the only one with problems, i.e.:
Quote
Codex Canonum Ecclesiarum Orientalium
Canon 57

1. The erection, restoration, modification and suppression of patriarchal Churches is reserved to the supreme authority of the Church.
2. Only the supreme authority of the Church can modify the legitimately recognized or conceded title of each patriarchal Church.
3. If it is possible, a patriarchal Church must have a permanent see for the residence of the patriarch in a
principal city inside its own territory from which the patriarch takes his title; this see cannot be transferred except for a most grave reason and with the consent of the synod of bishops of the patriarchal Church and the assent of the Roman Pontiff.

Originally Posted by Diak

Many Years to His Beatitude, our Patriarch Major-Archbishop +Sviatoslav.

per your supreme pontiff, fixed that for you.

In fact, given Pastor Aeternus, your bishops wouldn't have to be "busted to "auxiliary" status."

When they are free to ordain married men, and all those other "oriental" things, outside their "homelands," we'll see your jurisdictional conflicts cool down. Not until. Not to mention your four different patriarchs in Antioch, and your two in Jerusalem, which goes without a "sui juris" church of its own.

Who do you claim was "decanonized"?

And the second largest "particular" Orthodox Church is Romania, which is full of grace, as is the UOC.
Posted By: Diak

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/26/13 03:14 PM

Quote
When they are free to ordain married men, and all those other "oriental" things, outside their "homelands," we'll see your jurisdictional conflicts cool down.

We already do ordain married men outside our homeland.

Quote
Who do you claim was "decanonized"?


I believe that was discussed here:
http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/390533/MP_Decanonizes_Several_Saints

Quote
And the second largest "particular" Orthodox Church is Romania, which is full of grace, as is the UOC.

The UOC-KP is recognized to have about 5.5 million, which clearly puts it in second place. Like my Patriarch +Sviatoslav, I make no judgment on "canonicity". The Bulgarian Church was "without grace" for a very long time.

I also forgot to add in the above scenarios an "administrator" for a particular Church being appointed and bishop consecrated from outside that particular Church (i.e. ACROD) without a synodal election from within that particular Church.

Quote
Many Years to His Beatitude, our Patriarch +Sviatoslav
Patriarch, as per our Synod. That is how we commemorate him liturgically.
Posted By: DMD

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/26/13 07:01 PM

Originally Posted by Diak
Quote
When they are free to ordain married men, and all those other "oriental" things, outside their "homelands," we'll see your jurisdictional conflicts cool down.

We already do ordain married men outside our homeland.

Quote
Who do you claim was "decanonized"?


I believe that was discussed here:
http://www.byzcath.org/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/390533/MP_Decanonizes_Several_Saints

Quote
And the second largest "particular" Orthodox Church is Romania, which is full of grace, as is the UOC.

The UOC-KP is recognized to have about 5.5 million, which clearly puts it in second place. Like my Patriarch +Sviatoslav, I make no judgment on "canonicity". The Bulgarian Church was "without grace" for a very long time.

I also forgot to add in the above scenarios an "administrator" for a particular Church being appointed and bishop consecrated from outside that particular Church (i.e. ACROD) without a synodal election from within that particular Church.

Quote
Many Years to His Beatitude, our Patriarch +Sviatoslav
Patriarch, as per our Synod. That is how we commemorate him liturgically.


I wish we would all take a deep breath. The Soviets were an incarnation of,if you will, the devil's darkest evil. They created martyrs on a level not seen since the second century or so. Arguing about who suffered more or frankly who was complicit in this or that is beyond unseemly. Bad choices were made at all quarters from Moscow to Rome and all points between.

Our continuing sniping and boasting is surely not pleasing to God.

As to ACROD you know we have no synod. A council of priests in accordance with our charter (in a manner modeled after, of all things, the method of election promised under the union of Uzhorod....) was convened in July of last year to elect a candidate for Bishop to present to the Synod of Constantinople. This after a year long search for a candidate of Slavic background. God blessed us with a wonderful Bishop who quickly has won the hearts and minds of his people. Just check our website at acrod.org.
Posted By: eastwardlean?

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/26/13 08:26 PM

Originally Posted by DMD

Arguing about who suffered more or frankly who was complicit in this or that is beyond unseemly. Bad choices were made at all quarters from Moscow to Rome and all points between.

Our continuing sniping and boasting is surely not pleasing to God.


Plainly spoken and plainly true.

For my part, I will continue to thank God for the faithfulness of all those who suffered for the Name during that time, as I will continue to lament the 'sniping and boasting' from all quarters.

Posted By: theophan

Re: Russian Orthodox Metropolitan Hopes that Pope Francis Will Not Su - 03/27/13 12:54 PM

Quote
I wish we would all take a deep breath. The Soviets were an incarnation of,if you will, the devil's darkest evil. They created martyrs on a level not seen since the second century or so. Arguing about who suffered more or frankly who was complicit in this or that is beyond unseemly. Bad choices were made at all quarters from Moscow to Rome and all points between.

Our continuing sniping and boasting is surely not pleasing to God.


Glory be to Jesus Christ!!

Well said. I think this thread has outrun its usefulness, too. The acid exchanges betweeen brethren are not the stuff of what this forum is about. Let's all take a break this Holy Week and second week of Great Lent, read "Who We Are," and come back with a bit more love and humility.

This thread is closed.

Bob
Moderator
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