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Is Pope Francis a Heretic?

Posted By: TonyM

Is Pope Francis a Heretic? - 04/27/17 11:40 PM

I assume the Bishop of Rome is a topic of relevance to most people here.

A patristics scholar has come out with this new interview strongly suggesting that Amoris Laetitia is very close to heresy and the whole scenario as "unprecedented" and "apocalyptic."

https://gloria.tv/video/zYDLfafjvndC4DNFsQpMLKieo
Posted By: Fr. Deacon Lance

Re: Is Pope Francis a Heretic? - 04/28/17 02:06 AM

No.
Posted By: JimG

Re: Is Pope Francis a Heretic? - 04/28/17 03:08 AM

Gloria.tv, another reliably obstinate and totally unreliable source of Roman Catholic information. Please keep it out of here and go play in your own sandbox with your ultramontanist buddies. This site is about Eastern Christian and Eastern Catholic topics not this kind of non-sense.

"Gloria.tv is an internet-based Catholic video-sharing and news site based in Switzerland. It was created in 2005 and has become one of the largest Catholic-focused sites of its kind on the internet. It is run by a group of laity, supported by a few priests. It hosts videos and other media in many languages including English, German, Spanish, French, Italian, Romansch, Polish, Czech, Slovak, Romanian, Hungarian and others.

The news staff of the site have been notably very critical of the papacy of Pope Francis as well as critical of many other bishops and clergy within the modern church. It has been involved in some controversies between it and a few dioceses in the German-speaking world." Source Wikipedia as befits the topic
Posted By: TonyM

Re: Is Pope Francis a Heretic? - 04/28/17 07:51 PM

Critical of the papacy? Critical of many bishops?

Why does that matter?

The bully-language and name-calling of your post shows an unwillingness to consider the issue.
Posted By: JimG

Re: Is Pope Francis a Heretic? - 04/29/17 02:37 AM

Yes I think your sources and your thesis are questionable at best but more likely nonsense.. But most of all I think you are patently ignorant of the purpose of this forum. There are plenty of places you can go on the internet and pedal this stuff without wasting the time of this forum.
Posted By: desertman

Re: Is Pope Francis a Heretic? - 04/30/17 01:33 AM

I think this is something that has been weighing on many mainstream Catholics for a long time now and it's certainly not "nonsense". What is "nonsense", is the rampant secularization of the Roman hierarchy and the neo-liberal politicizing of the papacy under Francis. There are many mainstream Catholic news organizations that have expressed grave concerns, including EWTN and Catholic World Report.

Honestly, your reply is an example why I no longer post on this forum. There seems to be no openness to any kind of frank discussion about anything controversial or any room for differing opinions. That makes for a very dull discussion board to say the least.. Question anything and you're immediately shut down. I guess we should all just put our heads in the sand and pretend everything's business as usual in Rome.
Posted By: byzanTN

Re: Is Pope Francis a Heretic? - 05/01/17 03:44 PM

"Honestly, your reply is an example why I no longer post on this forum. There seems to be no openness to any kind of frank discussion about anything controversial or any room for differing opinions. That makes for a very dull discussion board to say the least.. Question anything and you're immediately shut down. I guess we should all just put our heads in the sand and pretend everything's business as usual in Rome."

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain. I agree, the 500-pound gorilla, the Latin Church, affects us Byzantines, whether we like it or not. Pope Francis is difficult to understand. I sometimes view him as a South American socialist who doesn't like the United States. It is easier to blame the U.S. for your nation's problems than fix your own country and its culture - the real source of its problems. I refer Pope Francis to God and am willing to let God deal with him. Popes come and go, blessed be the name of the Lord.

Although my church is in union with Rome, that doesn't mean it accepts every Latin interpretation of its theology. We tend to not make pronouncements on Latin theological eccentricities, since they are often better at digging their own holes than escaping from them.
Posted By: TonyM

Re: Is Pope Francis a Heretic? - 05/02/17 02:09 AM

Indeed, what is the point of a forum if a crucial issue such as the orthodoxy of the Bishop of Rome, remains a taboo and forbidden topic?

To dismiss the issue is to just bury one's head in the sand.

I would expect Byzantine Catholics are also concerned with the actions and statements of Successor of Peter.
Posted By: Administrator

Re: Is Pope Francis a Heretic? - 05/04/17 11:19 AM

Hi TonyM!

You might consider that there is a huge difference between posting a link to a video of someone proclaiming "The pope is a heretic!!" and a rational discussion of specific points taken from a specific document. You'd likely get a better response if you began a real discussion (like: In "Amoris Laetitia", Section XXX, Pope Francis says "A, B and C". I find this problematic because it is conflict with [List formal Catholic Teaching and provide reference and quote).

See what I mean?

Your post comes across as tossing in a bomb and waiting to see what happens. That's not a discussion.

John
Posted By: Porter

Re: Is Pope Francis a Heretic? - 05/27/17 04:49 PM

Heretic..no! Herald of the message of Jesus in word and example...yes!
Posted By: Nelson Chase

Re: Is Pope Francis a Heretic? - 05/28/17 03:37 AM

Pope Francis is not a heretic. His writings and speeches are vague. This vagueness has caused a tremendous amount of confusion. See for example the varied responses to Amoris Laetitia. I think it is extremely far fetched to call him a heretic.

He is the ultimate "spirit" of Vatican II pope. I had hoped that the successor of Pope Benedict would have carried on the positive reforms that were going on. I do think, and I could be wrong, that Pope Francis is one of the last, if not the last, "spirit" of Vatican II popes and that future popes will be more like Benedict and less like Francis.

One day Church historians will look back at Benedict the Great and Pope Francis will be an interesting footnote.
Posted By: byzanTN

Re: Is Pope Francis a Heretic? - 05/29/17 02:12 PM

I hope you are right about that. I greatly admired Pope Benedict.
Posted By: ast82401

Re: Is Pope Francis a Heretic? - 05/29/17 02:44 PM

I also have a strong admiration and respect for Benedict. My friend and I did a report on him in school on the qualities of a great leader. Pope Francis is still a good man though and he deserves our respect.
Posted By: desertman

Re: Is Pope Francis a Heretic? - 05/29/17 09:36 PM

deleted

Posted By: desertman

Re: Is Pope Francis a Heretic? - 06/14/17 02:30 AM

Pope Francis appoints abortion supporter to Academy For Life (after dismissing more orthodox members):
http://www.catholicherald.co.uk/new...n-appointed-to-vatican-pro-life-academy/
Posted By: theophan

Re: Is Pope Francis a Heretic? - 06/15/17 11:24 PM

Christ is in our midst!!

I recall reading an account of a question someone asked a Russian bishop about the eternal fate of non-Orthodox people. As I recall, his answer was that his questioner should not worry about this, but should let this to the Lord's judgement and to be more concerned about one's own relationship with the Lord and living it out.

I think that's a good way to live our lives. I pray for men who are burdened with the clerical office, because the Lord may judge them more severely because they are his living icons. Ordination does not confer infallibility or perfection. In fact, I believe, it adds a heavier burden.

So let's let the Lord be the judge of this and other situations surrounding our hierarchs and clergy. Let's pray for them and ourselves, working out our salvation with fear and trembling--as Scripture has it.

For me, I regularly meditate on the fearsome idea that I might hear "depart from Me, I don't know you" when I leap out into eternity. And then what!!?? An eternity of wondering where I got off track and spending it in the darkness with the demons howling with laughter.

Bob
Posted By: desertman

Re: Is Pope Francis a Heretic? - 06/16/17 01:48 AM

Theophan,

He is and always will be!

I deleted my most recent comments on this thread for reasons related to the point you’re making. I tend to go back and forth between wanting to keep silent in humility and feeling I should try to expose falsehood when I see it for the sake of truth. Won't those who remain silent when they feel they should speak up also be held accountable by God? It's such a strange situation in the Church right now and sometimes it's hard to know how God wants us to respond.
Posted By: jova

Re: Is Pope Francis a Heretic? - 06/16/17 04:11 AM

“The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.” Edmund Burke
Posted By: theophan

Re: Is Pope Francis a Heretic? - 06/16/17 07:22 PM

desertman:

Christ is in our midst!!

Yes, it is a problem. But there is a difference between speaking out in witness and making an accusatory judgement. To call someone a "heretic" is to accuse that person of deliberately distorting the truth of the Faith. ISTM that is a tall order and takes quite a bit of discernment. While no one can get inside another's head and heart to make a definite judgement in that regard, it, again, seems to me to take quite a bit of study to get to that level.

This is not to say that His Holiness has not confused issues by his pronouncements and written items, especially in light of his two predecessors who seemed to work hard to dispel confusion about issues.

Thankfully, the Lord is still in charge and His promise to be with us to the end of the age remains intact. Question for me is whether I will have remained faithful to what I have been taught and in how I have lived my life when He calls me to account. I can't blame anyone else at that time or on that score--not my spouse, children, confessor, spiritual father, colleagues, fellow parishioners or anyone else. And I'll be accountable for my witness to those in person and in virtual space. Check out Hosea 6:6 when you begin to react to someone's deviation from what you've been taught and let that temper your response.

Bob
Posted By: desertman

Re: Is Pope Francis a Heretic? - 06/17/17 01:33 AM

I wasn't the one who started the thread and I haven't outright accused anyone of heresy. I only wanted to counter the idea that everything is wonderful and that even the notion that anything could be amiss is preposterous. I was just trying to make it clear that many Catholics (and non-Catholics for that matter) believe there is much to be concerned about. In the midst of all the strangeness in the Church, we shouldn't have to turn our brains off to be good Catholics.

Believe me, I identify well with the sentiments in your last paragraph. First of all I guarantee I'm a worse sinner than anyone else on this forum and I'm well aware that I'm a far worse sinner than our Church leaders as well. I'm not here trying to sit in judgement of anyone or throw out accusations. I realize that my own judgement may not go well and that fact worries me a great deal. Like everyone else, I'm just trying to make sense of all that is happening in this crazy world and in our Church.
Posted By: desertman

Re: Is Pope Francis a Heretic? - 06/17/17 11:18 AM

I think Bob is right. It's better to try and tune out the constant media noise and focus on prayer and repentance than to follow all the hype about these issues. If any of my comments on this topic have upset or offended anybody, I ask for your forgiveness. Signing off.
Posted By: theophan

Re: Is Pope Francis a Heretic? - 06/17/17 06:27 PM

Christ is in our midst!!

Sometimes we can all be hyper-sensitive to what is going on, especially when we get our information from the unreliable mainstream media. ISTM we have to be very cautious about filtering the information and stories we get. In the past it was, perhaps, easier to deal with some of the issues with which we are bombarded daily--even hourly--because we were not plugged into the whole world as we are now via the internet and social media.

When we think of the spin that some stories we have heard about Pope Francis, ITSM that we have to filter the agenda of the news outlet(s) reporting. It wasn't long ago, for example, that it seemed he had softened the Church's stance on homosexuality. What he said was taken out of context in that instance.
Posted By: Peter J

Re: Is Pope Francis a Heretic? - 06/23/17 01:07 AM

I'm coming in late to this thread, but FWIW I'm having a hard time believing that this is a real question.
Posted By: Nelson Chase

Re: Is Pope Francis a Heretic? - 06/24/17 10:27 PM

While I think it is silly to think Pope Francis is a heretic, his ignoring of the four Cardinals who have asked him to simply state that the Churches consistent teaching on marriage, divorce, and communion has not been changed (as some Bishops conferences have seemed to indicate it has) is concerning for me and many faithful.
Posted By: desertman

Re: Is Pope Francis a Heretic? - 06/25/17 01:39 AM

Originally Posted by Peter J
I'm coming in late to this thread, but FWIW I'm having a hard time believing that this is a real question.


Originally Posted by Nelson Chase
While I think it is silly to think Pope Francis is a heretic, his ignoring of the four Cardinals who have asked him to simply state that the Churches consistent teaching on marriage, divorce, and communion has not been changed (as some Bishops conferences have seemed to indicate it has) is concerning for me and many faithful.


This was exactly my point. It may not be capital "H" heresy, but people are concerned. Even Cardinals. So why is it silly?

On a personal note, I've had devout protestant relatives bring up examples of statements to me that they felt bordered on heresy and even blasphemy. To be honest, I really didn't know how to respond to them. Whether it's homilies that explain away Christ's miracles as "allegorical", claiming that atheists can be saved by doing good works, or glaring omissions such as failing to utter the name Jesus even once in any of the U.S./U.N. speeches. Not to mention the routine demotion of the orthodox and subsequent promotion of the heterodox in positions all throughout the Church, both clerical and lay. Many Christians are scandalized, both Catholic and non-Catholic.

Given the above, why is it so shocking that someone would ask the question?
Posted By: Nelson Chase

Re: Is Pope Francis a Heretic? - 06/25/17 03:41 AM

Quote
This was exactly my point. It may not be capital "H" heresy, but people are concerned. Even Cardinals.


I guess my position is that Pope Francis knows that the Churches position hasn't changed since it can't change. (Truth does not change) As to why he refuses to clearly respond to the four Cardinals is beyond me. Perhaps he doesn't think he has too. Maybe he doesn't. The Cardinal Prefect of the CDF has clearly spoken but seems to be ignored.

Quote
So why is it silly?


Perhaps silly was not the word I was looking for.
Posted By: Protopappas76

Re: Is Pope Francis a Heretic? - 06/25/17 04:20 AM

I too, am bothered by some recent papal pronouncements, over-reach and actions.

But...


1. Can a Pope of Rome be a heretic?
Yes - history itself shows us this.

2. Is Pope Francis a heretic?
In accord with the Holy Tradition of the Church and repeated pronouncements of Church Councils,
that's a question that can only be answered by his peers, his fellow bishops.

3. What about can we do?
Pray


.
Posted By: theophan

Re: Is Pope Francis a Heretic? - 06/26/17 12:55 AM

Christ is in our midst!!

I understand the points being made and the fact that so many utterances, writings, and teachings seem to cause confusion. It seems that the fact that His Holiness is a Jesuit by training should cause him to be very clear on things that he writes or says.

That being said, we had the same sort of confusion coming out of the aftermath of the Vatican Council in the late 1960s. That is one reason that the cardinals chose Pope St John Paul II for his clear thinking and consistency in speaking and writing. We have, from his initiative, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which was conceived and meant to bring confusion on so many points to an end.

From where I sit, that document is a gift that I go to as a Latin Catholic time and again when questions come up. Additionally, I do not subscribe to the "high Papal view" that seems to make every papal utterance the last word on what is the truth and what is Church teaching. Maybe I'm the heretic, but it seems to me that I will be judged by how faithfully I keep what I have been taught from my earliest days to the present--how faithfully I live it, and teach it by my own example to others.

I do pray that the "smoke of Satan" that Pope Paul VI spoke of will not cloud the sight of others--something this Pope sensed in his time. Then I have to leave it in the Lord's Hands.
Posted By: Nelson Chase

Re: Is Pope Francis a Heretic? - 06/26/17 02:33 AM

He is and every shall be!

Quote
I understand the points being made and the fact that so many utterances, writings, and teachings seem to cause confusion. It seems that the fact that His Holiness is a Jesuit by training should cause him to be very clear on things that he writes or says.


Given the recent history of the Jesuits (the recent comments by their Superior General and the deceitfulness of a certain SJ celebrity priest), I think Pope Francis falls in line with his order.

Quote
That being said, we had the same sort of confusion coming out of the aftermath of the Vatican Council in the late 1960s. That is one reason that the cardinals chose Pope St John Paul II for his clear thinking and consistency in speaking and writing. We have, from his initiative, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, which was conceived and meant to bring confusion on so many points to an end.


I agree...the Catechism is crystal clear on these issues. All Pope Francis has to do is make that point and the controversy is over.


Quote
From where I sit, that document is a gift that I go to as a Latin Catholic time and again when questions come up.


I as a Byzantine Catholic love the Catechism.

Quote
Additionally, I do not subscribe to the "high Papal view" that seems to make every papal utterance the last word on what is the truth and what is Church teaching.


As do I but since the vast majority of average Catholics do and the media loves to take every utterance by the Holy Father as gospel, the Pope needs to actually act papal and but an end to this.


Quote

Maybe I'm the heretic, but it seems to me that I will be judged by how faithfully I keep what I have been taught from my earliest days to the present--how faithfully I live it, and teach it by my own example to others.


If you are a heretic may I join you? :-)
Posted By: jova

Re: Is Pope Francis a Heretic? - 06/26/17 03:47 PM

Originally Posted by theophan


...That being said, we had the same sort of confusion coming out of the aftermath of the Vatican Council in the late 1960s. That is one reason that the cardinals chose Pope St John Paul II for his clear thinking and consistency in speaking and writing...


"In the past, 15 to 20 days after a papal vacancy, the cardinals gathered in St. Peter's Basilica for a Mass invoking the guidance of the Holy Spirit in electing a new pope."

So the above is no longer true?

"Following a vacancy in the papacy, the cardinals hold a series of meetings at the Vatican called general congregations. They discuss the needs and the challenges facing the Catholic Church globally."

I also see new verbage, "When a pope dies or resigns". This is why my Protestant friends ask me, how I like it having two popes? They know it's an odd situation. (I do, too.)
Posted By: RussoRuthenianOGC

Re: Is Pope Francis a Heretic? - 07/20/17 12:38 AM

I would like to write as a Russian Orthodox believer occassionally paying attention to what Rome does, that Pope Francis comes across as more liberal than Paul VI. I would venture to say that if Pope Francis enjoyed Paul VI's zeitgeist, the already reformed nature of Vatican II Roman Catholicism would take a very, Anglican, relativist direction currying favor with the San Francisco values crowd. Pope Francis is a liberal, at times closeted, but a liberal.

Is Pope Francis a heretic? Thankfully, it is none of my business. Although if one gives credence to the anathemas of Pope Pius X against liberalism and modernism, the question is not easily dismissed. Who's right? Pius X, canonized, whose church was better run and much more flourishing, or Francis, presiding over a church in decline, constantly revising things to keep its identity "current"? I leave the question to those whom it ecclesiologically concerns.

For an Orthodox Christian, the pre Vatican II church in its worship was something which could be seen as a sort of Western relative. The reformed worship of Vatican II comes across as something Protestant, even impious. The openess Vatican II inaugurated in interfaith discussion and theological, scriptural, ecclesiological encounter is something more constructive generally than the old Tridentine mindset. However, the process has notoriously been run by liberals who approach things with a very liberal casuistry and relativized/modern outlook (syncretistic?), albeit one that ultimately supports a papal primacy (of their own creation).
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