www.byzcath.org

A question for all

Posted By: eamon

A question for all - 02/06/19 02:25 PM

Good Day and God Bless,
Some years ago ( maybe 6 ) I was kind of active on this site. I returned recently and noticed that it is drastically less active. Can anyone help me understand why?
Pax,
Eamon
Posted By: theophan

Re: A question for all - 02/06/19 09:21 PM

Christ is in our midst!!

It's anyone's guess. People move on. People have become less engaged in anything and everything outside their own home. People have drifted away from the Church because of the clergy scandal in the Catholic Church--which has also engulfed the Eastern Catholic Churches. There is turmoil in the Orthodox Church.

It seems to me that we have entered a time when people have become less interested in the Faith. I deal with many clergy of many different Churches and communities. The story seems to be similar all around with a few exceptions: numbers are down; people don't bring their children for worship or for education; people say they're busy on Sunday morning; kids have many more sports practices scheduled on Sunday morning than in previous decades.

So many reasons; so many questions.

Bob
Posted By: Administrator

Re: A question for all - 02/07/19 08:30 PM

Hi Eamon,

I think Bob is right. People move on. And discussions tend to get repeated over time (the Forum has been online for over 20 years!), so participants often don't have anything new to say. Add into this that Eastern Christians tend to be older, and less likely to use things like forums. Also, some have moved to Facebook, where there are always similar discussions.

John
Posted By: byzanTN

Re: A question for all - 02/08/19 09:55 PM

Some of the more interesting folks who could light a few sparks in discussions are not here any more. What has happened to them, I don't know, but age and health may have caught up with some. I wish them all well. Correct about many things have already been discussed.
Posted By: SwanOfEndlessTales

Re: A question for all - 02/14/19 02:18 PM

There is another, much livelier forum I could name, but I'm not sure if that's allowed.
Posted By: Administrator

Re: A question for all - 02/19/19 07:52 PM

You can mention whatever you want.

Just saw an article where someone was banned from Facebook for posting a picture of the Holy Coptic Martyrs being executed in 2015. Perhaps people will leave there and some may return here.
Posted By: theophan

Re: A question for all - 02/19/19 09:55 PM

Quote
. . . banned from Facebook for posting a picture of the Holy Coptic Martyrs being executed in 2015.


This is so terrible, but so much a part of our current anti-Christian world-wide culture. Calls for a minute of silence just to let it sink in. Like the martyring of these men, this censure calls all of us to remember that we are not called to shrink from our call to be active witnesses of Christ and all He has done for us and for the whole world.

Bob
Posted By: SwanOfEndlessTales

Re: A question for all - 02/19/19 09:56 PM

I was specifically alluding to the forum orthodoxchristianity.net. I would suggest everyone check it out.

Posting graphic violence on facebook is generally frowned upon and most facebook users are aware of that.
Posted By: Administrator

Re: A question for all - 02/19/19 10:38 PM

This image shows coming graphic violence, but is not actually violent. Facebook should not have banned it:

[Linked Image]

Holy Coptic Martyrs, pray for us!
Posted By: SwanOfEndlessTales

Re: A question for all - 02/21/19 04:09 PM

I highly doubt anyone was banned for sharing that image. A long clip of the video has been making the rounds on facebook. It is still viewable and none of my connections who posted it were banned. This smells like a typical case of persecution fantasy/ fetishism by Americhristians.
Posted By: Administrator

Re: A question for all - 02/21/19 08:46 PM

Well... it's true. It's one of many examples of people being tossed off social media for such posts. You are free to doubt it's truthfulness, but that's your concern.
Posted By: SwanOfEndlessTales

Re: A question for all - 02/22/19 02:24 PM

Here is the video on facebook, still viewable and shared by many: https://www.facebook.com/ProChristi...illed-by-islamic-state/1366809513340385/

Neither the video, nor the group that posted it, nor the thousands of people who shared it, have been banned. Claiming otherwise feels like a cheap way for internet culture warriors to put their "martyrdom" on par with the real martyrdom endured by the true Christians on the beach in Libya.
Posted By: Administrator

Re: A question for all - 02/22/19 03:32 PM

Good. I'm glad that person has not been banned. Others have. That you feel that such things are false and cheap is your opinion.
Posted By: Thomas the Seeker

Re: A question for all - 02/23/19 06:27 AM

Ponder this: In every age, the Church has taught, practiced, and confessed "Memory Eternal."

The hostile culture which inflicted red martyrdom has done everything in its power to ensure that their memory would be forgotten.

On this 23rd day of February, make time to read "The Martrydom of Polycarp". Why did the Romans seek to destroy the Hieromartyr's body by fire? They were attempting to destroy all relics.

On the 24th we celebrate the recovery of relics, namely the head of the Forerunner.

These feasts are placed back to back very intentionally.
Posted By: theophan

Re: A question for all - 02/24/19 12:38 AM

Christ is in our midst!

My understanding of "Memory Eternal" is a petition for God to remember us in His Kingdom, eternally. I am sure that there will always be those who are martyred who will never make it to the Church's official calendar, but as long as the One Who accepted the Scourging, the Cross, and the Tomb for us keeps us in His Memory things will always be okay. Think of the millions martyred under the Communist Yoke, the Turkish Yoke, and recently under Islamic persecution. The 20th century is said to have been the bloodiest one in the Church's history. It is also said that the blood of martyrs waters the Church.
Posted By: The Nikonian

Re: A question for all - 02/24/19 05:30 PM

I only recently joined the Forum and i also am surprised at how inactive it is i visit almost everyday here and there is usually nothing new whereas when i visit OrthodoxChristianity.net there is always plenty of discussion and new threads
Posted By: DocT

Re: A question for all - 02/25/19 03:12 PM

Originally Posted by The Nikonian
I only recently joined the Forum and i also am surprised at how inactive it is i visit almost everyday here and there is usually nothing new whereas when i visit OrthodoxChristianity.net there is always plenty of discussion and new threads


It's a tough time to be Catholic.

On the other hand, the Orthodox church is growing fast and becoming "hip" with younger folks.

It's a matter of speculation as to why this is the case, but I suspect it has something to do with integrity and faithfulness to the ancient ways. At least that's what people investigating/converting to Orthodoxy tell me.

These same folks often give Eastern Catholicism a try, especially if they grew up in the RCC, but soon find out that a mixture of the two doesn't exactly resonate.

Yesterday there were only 3 people praying the Rosary before Divine Liturgy....but they "mixed" the Rosary with the Prayer Rule of St. Seraphim of Sarov (prayer rule of the Theotokos) in order to "make father happy." <--------this sort of thing turns me off!

The Latin Church has a rich, ancient history. If you like it, go there! The Byzantine Church also has a rich, ancient history that is different from the Latin Church.....stop trying to mix the two!

I think if the Eastern Catholics actually took their faith seriously and didn't try to make a half-way house for disaffected RC's we might attract more people.
Posted By: JimG

Re: A question for all - 02/26/19 01:57 PM

Our little outreach does not engage in any of your mixed traditions. We are strictly Eastern Christian in outlook and practice. We have attracted a proportionately large number of young people and families. They come for the liturgy and traditions and stay for the community. I must say that the willingness of some of the Orthodox to argue that the Catholic Church is wrong (and in some cases even stating that it is evil), something we do not believe about Orthodoxy and never would claim, is not insignificant in convincing some to go there.
Posted By: DocT

Re: A question for all - 02/27/19 02:55 PM

Originally Posted by JimG
Our little outreach does not engage in any of your mixed traditions. We are strictly Eastern Christian in outlook and practice. We have attracted a proportionately large number of young people and families. They come for the liturgy and traditions and stay for the community. I must say that the willingness of some of the Orthodox to argue that the Catholic Church is wrong (and in some cases even stating that it is evil), something we do not believe about Orthodoxy and never would claim, is not insignificant in convincing some to go there.


I agree Jim. From what I can tell, young folks are especially attracted to the "purity" and ancient aspect of the Eastern Catholic faith. Many are trying to flee guitar masses and are eager to try something authentic.

The more the Eastern Churches stick to their traditions, the more attractive they are to young folks, who are weary of the protestantization of the Latin rite churches and are wanting something different.

RE: Orthodox bashing Catholics.....it's very sad they do this. I have resolved that with God's help I will never return the offense. They have their reasons....some of them quite good, some of them not.
Posted By: SwanOfEndlessTales

Re: A question for all - 02/28/19 03:39 PM

I wouldn't overstate it. Generally Orthodox churches are not bursting at the seams either. ~Some~ young people are drawn to traditional liturgy and aesthetics. Some others actually like the guitar masses and all that nonsense. Most simply don't care about either.
Posted By: DocT

Re: A question for all - 02/28/19 04:31 PM

Originally Posted by SwanOfEndlessTales
I wouldn't overstate it. Generally Orthodox churches are not bursting at the seams either. ~Some~ young people are drawn to traditional liturgy and aesthetics. Some others actually like the guitar masses and all that nonsense. Most simply don't care about either.


Indeed, I do not want to leave the impression that Orthodox churches are "bursting at the seams." A few are.....many are not.

The few that are feature lots of converts. They are attracted to the traditional liturgy, prayer, FASTING and theology. Folks like this aren't interested in guitar mass.

Certainly "most" don't care....but at this point it's not realistic to evangelize "most." Leave that to Joel Osteen. How about providing the authentic, tradition faith and practice of the Eastern Churches without Latinization/Americanization?

I think that's what seekers want. At least that's the consensus at my parish.

At any rate, there is no benefit that can be derived by watering things down and doing things sloppily half-latin/half Greek.
Posted By: dochawk

Re: A question for all - 03/01/19 04:22 AM

So much is answered in the archives, that there aren't as many "new" questions as in the past.

And with lower activity, we check in less often, so start less, and answer less, making the activity lower, and . . .
Posted By: desertman

Re: A question for all - 05/27/19 09:41 PM

Originally Posted by eamon
Good Day and God Bless,
Some years ago ( maybe 6 ) I was kind of active on this site. I returned recently and noticed that it is drastically less active. Can anyone help me understand why?
Pax,
Eamon


I stopped visiting and posting on this site years ago, although I still stop by on a rare occasion out of curiosity. While there are still some very good and intelligent people here, I can see things have not changed much.

Any time an open and honest conversation starts up about Catholic/Orthodox doctrinal differences or debates, or the multi-layered doctrinal/moral crisis in the Catholic Church, or the disaster of the current papacy, the conversation is terminated (usually preceded by a strong "lecture" about what this site's purpose is). There are other forums out there where challenging conversations and rigorous theological debate are allowed and even welcomed, but not here. Of course that's their right and their decision to run things that way if they want to, but it makes for a somewhat intellectually dishonest and boring discussion forum. Anyway, that's it in a nutshell, for me at least.

Sorry if that came across as harsh, but I happened to notice this thread after having just read another recent thread that perfectly encapsulates what I've just described above. It was immediately locked after someone complained. And so it goes...

Peace and God bless.

P.S. - To the new member who posted on that thread, who was perfectly pleasant and well-mannered, I apologize for your treatment and for being called an anti-Catholic. You made it clear you were merely seeking the truth and your only crime was posting some challenging thoughts that apparently someone couldn't handle.
Posted By: Utroque

Re: A question for all - 05/31/19 02:18 AM

As I am obviously the one you are referring to as the poster who requested that the thread on making women Cardinals be discontinued, I will speak in my defense. My request was made because I felt the thread had gone way off the subject, not because I was unable to handle what the most recent posters had said. I responded to those posts in a very honest and forthright way because I vehemently objected to their tone and the spiteful way in which I feel they depict the Catholic Church and her primate, as I object to you calling his papacy a disaster.

I welcome each and everyone's response as I always have on this forum; but I am also aware of the "baiting" that goes on at times, and I write when I don't like it. That is my "freedom". I, too, welcome honest and open debate and conversation about Catholic and Orthodox doctrinal differences in a way that builds the Church, both east and west up. But tirades, rants and cants are not debates and conversations. They debase them, and are not worthy of any forum. I have welcomed this forum since I joined some years ago, and I, too, miss many of the voices once heard. Who knows why they're silent? Some people get old as I am, some people get sick and die; some people just lose interest. But as I have been both (Utroque!) western, eastern, Catholic,Orthodox and back (talk about struggle!) even in between (perhaps Northeast) at times, I choose to stay on this Forum because I desperately want unity between Orthodox and Catholic and will do everything I can to help bring this about. Let's keep talking.
Posted By: theophan

Re: A question for all - 05/31/19 11:52 AM

Christ is Risen!!

I locked the thread because it began as a discussion of women cardinals, moved to women deaconesses, and finally morphed into a discussion about the relative merits of Orthodoxy and Catholicism. The latter portion seemed to be going off into the usual antagonisms that are never charitable nor fruitful in advancing the charitable atmosphere we try to keep here.

Bob
Moderator
Posted By: Utroque

Re: A question for all - 06/07/19 12:16 AM

Just wondering if some have left the forum because the site is not secured. I log on, look up in the right hand corner of my browser and it reads in red: Not Secure. Makes me a little nervous in the "Hack Infested" environment of the world wide web. Should I be concerned? Are others?
Posted By: Irish_Ruthenian

Re: A question for all - 06/07/19 03:59 PM

Originally Posted by DocT
[quote=The Nikonian]I only recently joined the Forum and i also am surprised at how inactive it is i visit almost everyday here and there is usually nothing new whereas when i visit OrthodoxChristianity.net there is always plenty of discussion and new threads


Quote
It's a tough time to be Catholic.

On the other hand, the Orthodox church is growing fast and becoming "hip" with younger folks.


O Lord! I hope it ain't about "being hip" (you know, cool clerics worn by the clergy, "fun" incense, neat chant. I do hope it is about TRUTH!!! That is why I am ready to leave the BCC as soon as the Lord gives me the green light. Right now I'm on hold for some reason.

Quote
It's a matter of speculation as to why this is the case, but I suspect it has something to do with integrity and faithfulness to the ancient ways. At least that's what people investigating/converting to Orthodoxy tell me.


That is exactly why I want to go. I challenge Latins constantly to show me Purgatory, Immaculate Conception, Filioque, The Treasury of Merit, Indulgences, and all other post 1054 AD inventions of their church in the writings of the Early Fathers. So far - no takers. Just crickets. And the apologia I have seen A.) limits the truth to being subject to charity and B.) distorts any writings of the Fathers that they do use

Quote
These same folks often give Eastern Catholicism a try, especially if they grew up in the RCC, but soon find out that a mixture of the two doesn't exactly resonate.


That's putting it mildly! When I was a Protestant and examining the apostolic faith, I was interested in Orthodoxy. I thought I could be Orthodox and have communion with the Bishop of Rome. I didn't understand the serious anthropological, soteriological, and eschatological differences, and unfortunately, the dear old priest whose Saturday Vespers I was attending just assumed I was headed to his parish and didn't sit down and give me a clear outline of it. It wasn't until I went to seminary that I found out these things and now - well, I am considerably disappointed that I am not Orthodox today.

Quote
Yesterday there were only 3 people praying the Rosary before Divine Liturgy....but they "mixed" the Rosary with the Prayer Rule of St. Seraphim of Sarov (prayer rule of the Theotokos) in order to "make father happy." <--------this sort of thing turns me off!


Typical of how the BCC in America allowed the Latin bishops to push them around. The best thing Bishop Takach could have done when he was called to Rome and the Pope said that they couldn't have married priests would have been to come back and tell his flock "We are going back to our Orthodox heritage. The Union of Brest has been betrayed by Rome."

It was when I started to think of what it means to be Orthodox, and then said to myself "How does this work with being "in union with Rome" that I realized the problems.


Quote
The Latin Church has a rich, ancient history. If you like it, go there! The Byzantine Church also has a rich, ancient history that is different from the Latin Church.....stop trying to mix the two!


The BCC is an attempt to mix the two. And it ain't working! Listen, I know I sound harsh, and I don't mean to be. I will not use the word "heretic," which is is very strong, but if you are Orthodox, then the Latin Church is promoting errors as far as you are concerned. Now how can you be "Orthodox in Communion with Rome" and still hold to those errors? Either you are Orthodox or you are not! And if you think I am being too strident about this and you are BCC, go to your priest or bishop and tell him that you don't accept anything that Rome teaches after the schism of 1054 AD and see how well that is received. I guarantee you will be in deep kimchee!

Quote
I think if the Eastern Catholics actually took their faith seriously and didn't try to make a half-way house for disaffected RC's we might attract more people.


Did I read somewhere that Pope Francis said that the Unia was no longer a viable idea? If so, I have to say I agree with that. Make a choice - Orthodox or Roman Catholic and stop trying to be both. It ain't working.

As a PS here - I've seen a dozen of my friends "Dox" in the last couple of years because of what the Ruthenians did to trash their Liturgy with the Teal Terror and because of a bad priest who terrorized the parish and was Latinizing the Liturgy. And the bishop was apparently sleeping through it all. The parish is, as I understand from friends who are still there, in chaos now. Very sad.

And my critique of the errors of the Latin Church does not mean that there are not people in it who love Jesus far more than I ever will in my disordered life. It simply means that there are things in it with which the Early Fathers would not agree.
Posted By: ajk

Re: A question for all - 06/08/19 01:59 PM

Originally Posted by Irish_Ruthenian
O Lord!...And my critique of the errors of the Latin Church does not mean that there are not people in it who love Jesus far more than I ever will in my disordered life. It simply means that there are things in it with which the Early Fathers would not agree.
You have already formed the verdict then, the "errors"? You think the Patristic witness is monolithic? It is not. You think the faith of the Church is established by a Patristic synthesis (though it is an important component)? It is not. Purgatory is an innovation but not Toll Houses? You think the Church properly developed doctrine through eight centuries and then stopped? You (and others) limit God in the scope of His plan of salvation -- can't be an Immaculate Conception? Merit is denied but the East is more accommodating to what is considered Pelagian tendencies?

There is still a Ruthenian Recension and Carpathian chant tradition: Liturgicons (in translation) can always be improved. "Teal Terror" caught on but it's an unfortunate misnomer; it was originally dubbed the "Teal Tyrant" on this forum (by me) since it was inflexible and draconian in its selection. It has done a lot of good but could have been done better in keeping with the chant traditionS. It has given us needed improvements (for instance Ressurectional Troparia Tone 3 and 8; the eight tones for the "Our Father" and Alleluia, etc.) and overall availability. The work for improvement and restoration can still continue. As happens too often, extremes catch on and prevail: the difference between the characterizations of "Terror" and "Tyrant" is the difference between flame and light.

I find that selective reading and prejudicial considerations make conclusions easy and straightforward but wrong.
Posted By: Irish_Ruthenian

Re: A question for all - 06/08/19 02:22 PM

Originally Posted by ajk
Originally Posted by Irish_Ruthenian
O Lord!...And my critique of the errors of the Latin Church does not mean that there are not people in it who love Jesus far more than I ever will in my disordered life. It simply means that there are things in it with which the Early Fathers would not agree.
You have already formed the verdict then, the "errors"? You think the Patristic witness is monolithic? It is not. You think the faith of the Church is established by a Patristic synthesis (though it is an important component)? It is not. Purgatory is an innovation but not Toll Houses? You think the Church properly developed doctrine through eight centuries and then stopped? You (and others) limit God in the scope of His plan of salvation -- can't be an Immaculate Conception? Merit is denied but the East is more accommodating to what is considered Pelagian tendencies?

There is still a Ruthenian Recension and Carpathian chant tradition: Liturgicons (in translation) can always be improved. "Teal Terror" caught on but it's an unfortunate misnomer; it was originally dubbed the "Teal Tyrant" on this forum (by me) since it was inflexible and draconian in its selection. It has done a lot of good but could have been done better in keeping with the chant traditionS. It has given us needed improvements (for instance Ressurectional Troparia Tone 3 and 8; the eight tones for the "Our Father" and Alleluia, etc.) and overall availability. The work for improvement and restoration can still continue. As happens too often, extremes catch on and prevail: the difference between the characterizations of "Terror" and "Tyrant" is the difference between flame and light.

I find that selective reading and prejudicial considerations make conclusions easy and straightforward but wrong.


Toll Houses???

Vain Fantasy that a great number of Orthodox reject out of hand. Never found in the writings of the Early Fathers.

The Church developed doctrine. It didn't invent new doctrines out of whole cloth.

Have you ever actually listened to an Orthodox priest explain the problems with the Immaculate Conception? No. Of course you haven't. They are many and they go to the heart of our anthropology and soteriology, not to mention they take away from the glory of the Theotokos by making Her unable to sin. Once Her choice to cooperate with the Holy Spirit in holiness is taken away, She becomes an entirely different person than we are, and this creates a real problem when you think of the fact that Jesus gets His human flesh, given for the salvation of the world, from Her. If She is not human and born as we are, then the whole thing runs off the rails.

I won't even TRY to dignify what the bishops of the Ruthenians did to the Liturgy with the Teal Monstrosity.
Posted By: byzanTN

Re: A question for all - 06/08/19 02:50 PM

Interestingly enough, I have recently had a family and also a friend tell me they were converting to Orthodoxy from the BCC (the family) and the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church (the individual)/ It doesn't help that the OCA pastor is dynamic and has his stuff together on who he is and what he is doing. The "Ruthenian" mission has fallen apart because the bi-ritual pastor retired. There is no one to replace him. The congregation is having issues with their building which is in need of several costly repairs. Some have gone to the Ukrainian church but the pastor is too influenced by the Latins, it seems. The individual I mentioned told me she is leaving the Byzantine/Latin chaos behind and going to Orthodoxy. She said she is also tired of the confusion and lack of leadership coming from Rome and the bishops. What can I say to any of that?

The forum tries to keep wholesale bickering from breaking out, which is a good thing. Are some moderators too thin skinned and likely to appeal to vague calls for charity when they hear something they don't like? Yes, sometimes certain individuals have a history of doing that. I suspect that many questions that are posted here have already been answered multiple times. So the regulars can tire of hearing the same questions raised over and over. I wonder about the effectiveness of forums in general. Newer methods such as Facebook, texting, and such have replaced traditional forums. The weakness in them, I think, is they are not suited to thorough analysis and answers to questions and are, at best, quite superficial. It is what it is, I suppose, for better or worse.
Posted By: Irish_Ruthenian

Re: A question for all - 06/08/19 03:09 PM

Originally Posted by byzanTN
Interestingly enough, I have recently had a family and also a friend tell me they were converting to Orthodoxy from the BCC (the family) and the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church (the individual)/ It doesn't help that the OCA pastor is dynamic and has his stuff together on who he is and what he is doing. The "Ruthenian" mission has fallen apart because the bi-ritual pastor retired. There is no one to replace him. The congregation is having issues with their building which is in need of several costly repairs. Some have gone to the Ukrainian church but the pastor is too influenced by the Latins, it seems. The individual I mentioned told me she is leaving the Byzantine/Latin chaos behind and going to Orthodoxy. She said she is also tired of the confusion and lack of leadership coming from Rome and the bishops. What can I say to any of that?

The forum tries to keep wholesale bickering from breaking out, which is a good thing. Are some moderators too thin skinned and likely to appeal to vague calls for charity when they hear something they don't like? Yes, sometimes certain individuals have a history of doing that. I suspect that many questions that are posted here have already been answered multiple times. So the regulars can tire of hearing the same questions raised over and over. I wonder about the effectiveness of forums in general. Newer methods such as Facebook, texting, and such have replaced traditional forums. The weakness in them, I think, is they are not suited to thorough analysis and answers to questions and are, at best, quite superficial. It is what it is, I suppose, for better or worse.


I listen to Ancient Faith Radio. If this OCA pastor is who I think he is in Tennessee, I am not surprised at all regarding the conversions. He is quite a speaker.

You mention the "Latinized" UCC parish. When I joined my UCC parish, there were Stations of the Cross on the walls. Yeah, they got beat into submission by the Irish bishops of Rome just as the Ruthenians did.
Posted By: ajk

Re: A question for all - 06/08/19 05:49 PM

Originally Posted by Irish_Ruthenian
Originally Posted by ajk
Originally Posted by Irish_Ruthenian
O Lord!...And my critique of the errors of the Latin Church does not mean that there are not people in it who love Jesus far more than I ever will in my disordered life. It simply means that there are things in it with which the Early Fathers would not agree.
You have already formed the verdict then, the "errors"? You think the Patristic witness is monolithic? It is not. You think the faith of the Church is established by a Patristic synthesis (though it is an important component)? It is not. Purgatory is an innovation but not Toll Houses? You think the Church properly developed doctrine through eight centuries and then stopped? You (and others) limit God in the scope of His plan of salvation -- can't be an Immaculate Conception? Merit is denied but the East is more accommodating to what is considered Pelagian tendencies?

There is still a Ruthenian Recension and Carpathian chant tradition: Liturgicons (in translation) can always be improved. "Teal Terror" caught on but it's an unfortunate misnomer; it was originally dubbed the "Teal Tyrant" on this forum (by me) since it was inflexible and draconian in its selection. It has done a lot of good but could have been done better in keeping with the chant traditionS. It has given us needed improvements (for instance Ressurectional Troparia Tone 3 and 8; the eight tones for the "Our Father" and Alleluia, etc.) and overall availability. The work for improvement and restoration can still continue. As happens too often, extremes catch on and prevail: the difference between the characterizations of "Terror" and "Tyrant" is the difference between flame and light.

I find that selective reading and prejudicial considerations make conclusions easy and straightforward but wrong.


Toll Houses???

Vain Fantasy that a great number of Orthodox reject out of hand.
A great number? Not all?

Originally Posted by Irish_Ruthenian
Never found in the writings of the Early Fathers.
As I've said and say again, the faith of the Church is not established on Patristic writings although they are a very important witness.

Originally Posted by Irish_Ruthenian
The Church developed doctrine. It didn't invent new doctrines out of whole cloth.

Have you ever actually listened to an Orthodox priest explain the problems with the Immaculate Conception? No. Of course you haven't.
Here you presume to have knowledge of things that you do not know. A trend?

Originally Posted by Irish_Ruthenian
They are many and they go to the heart of our anthropology and soteriology, not to mention they take away from the glory of the Theotokos by making Her unable to sin. Once Her choice to cooperate with the Holy Spirit in holiness is taken away, She becomes an entirely different person than we are, and this creates a real problem when you think of the fact that Jesus gets His human flesh, given for the salvation of the world, from Her. If She is not human and born as we are, then the whole thing runs off the rails.
You apparently have accepted a caricature of the doctrine, perhaps the uncritical acceptance of the biased explanation of that Orthodox priest I didn't consult.

Originally Posted by Irish_Ruthenian
I won't even TRY to dignify what the bishops of the Ruthenians did to the Liturgy with the Teal Monstrosity.
The Teal book is primarily a book of chant. The scope of the chant there is far beyond what I, as an aspiring cantor, yearned for in the early 80s. It's implementation, like the liturgicon, was heavy-handed but at least it was less arbitrary. I look upon it as a work in progress. In 2007, as a deacon, I requested and accepted inactive status rather than celebrate using the liturgicon. I know and have experienced the issues and the misrepresentations first hand.

Many difficulties do not necessarily add up to a doubt. Question and keep searching and hear out all sides of the issues.

© 2019 The Byzantine Forum