wpk, Keithg29, brick22, BensGal, Lady Byzantine, Eli Akim, Kirk, Jerzy, Rusyn53, Lou, evergreen, old orthodox, PresJuliana, Heracleides, Addai
3135 Registered Users |
|
15 registered
(Pani Rose, Peter_B, Ung-Certez, Garajotsi, Epiphanius, Danielik, Collin Nunis, Nicole_248, Yuhannon, Three Cents, byzanTN, theophan, JohnS., 2 invisible)
and 203 anonymous users online.
|
|
The Byzantine Forum also hosts these private forums:
The Deacon’s Door (for deacons and deacon
candidates and their wives), the Orthodox Christian
Studies Forum (for currently enrolled students only of the distance education programs
offered by the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America) and
the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church Clergy Forum
(for clergy, religious, and clergy wives of that Church). Contact an administrator for
access.
|
|
3135 Members
20 Forums
21734 Topics
284030 Posts
Max Online: 1087 @ 07/16/07 01:09 PM
|
|
|
#217193 - 12/18/06 11:12 AM
Re: David Petras: Time For The Lord To Act: A Catechetical Commen
[Re: Jim]
|
John Damascene
Member
Registered: 02/13/04
Posts: 96
Loc: Ruthenia
|
I am wondering how other Byzantine Catholics (Ruthenian) are responding to Fr. Petras' book as well. I found his discussion on Tradition as opposed to traditionalism very relevant to reflection on liturgical changes.
Jim,
Exactly how did you find his discussion on Tradition vs traditionalism very relevant to the proposed revision of the Divine Liturgy? The only place he really talks about it is on pages 31-33.
On page 33 he states:
And so the universal Church warns our particular Church, "You must return to your ancestral traditions," and develop them only "in an organic way."
But the Liturgical Instruction says:
The first requirement of every Eastern liturgical renewal, as is also the case for liturgical reform in the West, is that of rediscovering full fidelity to their own liturgical traditions, benefiting from their riches and eliminating that which has altered their authenticity. Such heedfulness is not subordinate to but precedes so-called updating. (Liturgical Instruction, Section 18)
Father David's point about Rome telling us to develop the Liturgy is inaccurate. Rome told us specifically that restoration precedes updating. Why does Father David reject Rome's directive? This is not the only place where Father David is in error. Anyone familiar with the Vatican documents who reads Father David's book can find dozens of places where he misquotes or misapplies them.
Father David does not say specifically who he charges with traditionalism.
He quotes Jaroslav Pelikan: "Tradition is the living faith of the dead; traditionalism is the dead faith of the living."
Does he apply it to Rome, who has directed us to restore the 1941 Sluzebnik? Is Rome guilty of traditionalism? Is Rome directing us to the dead faith of the living?
Does he apply it to the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, who has recently ordered that the 1941 Sluzebnik and the other books (including the Ordo Celebrationis)? Are the Ukrainians guilty of traditionalism? Are the Ukrainians imitating the dead faith of the living?
Does he apply it to all of Orthodoxy? Orthodoxy is certainly not making any of the changes Father David is urging our bishops to make.
Who exactly is guilty of traditionalism? Father David never says. He only hints that anyone who disagrees with his revision of the Liturgy is guilty of traditionalism.
Father David is certainly a capable scholar. I also know him as a good and holy man. It is a shame that he chose not to produce a scholarly work.
JD
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#217198 - 12/18/06 11:29 AM
Re: David Petras: Time For The Lord To Act: A Catechetical Commen
[Re: Father David]
|
John Damascene
Member
Registered: 02/13/04
Posts: 96
Loc: Ruthenia
|
Since it is known that I read the Byzantine Forum, I am noting only that I have seen Father Anthony's review of my book "Time for the Lord to Act." Since the review questions my personal writing style, ability to teach and scholarship, I feel that any response carries the danger of personal polemic.
Don't exaggerate.
Father Anthony does not question your ability to write well, your ability to teach or your ability to do decent scholarship. His review of is only of your one work. Surely you do not claim that all of your work is perfect and beyond criticism?
You have not provided references or footnotes. You cannot claim that your book is scholarly.
JD
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#217240 - 12/18/06 05:10 PM
Re: David Petras: Time For The Lord To Act: A Catechetical Commen
[Re: John Damascene]
|
Jim
Member
Registered: 08/02/02
Posts: 1039
Loc: Arizona
|
John Damascene is correct with regard to the page numbers in Fr. Petras' book for the subchapter "Tradition and the Liturgy". It is on pages 31 through 33. I particularly like Father's statement on page 33:
Father says, "We must avoid "traditionalism" like a plague, for a mindless clinging to what has been done can distort and ruin Tradition, but we must be true "traditionalists," people who work to understand the faith and to celebrate it with beauty."
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#217241 - 12/18/06 05:33 PM
Re: David Petras: Time For The Lord To Act: A Catechetical Commen
[Re: Jim]
|
lm
Member
Registered: 08/29/05
Posts: 778
Loc: usa
|
I am all for celebrating the Divine Liturgy with beauty and being a true traditionalist. But, as they say, the devil is in the details. How are we following tradition by leaving men out of the Creed and mankind out of the Divine Liturgy? What is mindless about a faithful translation? Speaking of "traditionalists" is an easy out for dealing with those who want to actually follow, well, for lack of a better term and in the words of Tevya, TRADITION!
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#217257 - 12/18/06 09:03 PM
Re: David Petras: Time For The Lord To Act: A Catechetical Commen
[Re: Jim]
|
PAL
Junior Member
Registered: 12/18/06
Posts: 5
Loc: 90210
|
John Damascene is correct with regard to the page numbers in Fr. Petras' book for the subchapter "Tradition and the Liturgy". It is on pages 31 through 33. I particularly like Father's statement on page 33:
Father says, "We must avoid "traditionalism" like a plague, for a mindless clinging to what has been done can distort and ruin Tradition, but we must be true "traditionalists," people who work to understand the faith and to celebrate it with beauty."
Jim - anyone who reads this Forum even casually would have to see the irony that you are a "fond supporter" of the group that advocates such a strict adherence to the chant/music in the Bokshaj Prostopinije that "slavery" would not be a strong enough term, yet you have no problem with a Liturgikon that would chop up the Divine Liturgy beyond the point of recognition.
This type of inconsistency is proof positive that the COMMON AGENDA is "change for the sake of change."
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#217300 - 12/19/06 12:29 AM
Re: David Petras: Time For The Lord To Act: A Catechetical Commen
[Re: Matthew Katona]
|
Irish Melkite
Moderator
Member
Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 3891
Loc: Massachusetts
|
I had a very lengthy reply on your book that was removed by Irish Melkite this morning. It was neither rude nor aggressive. I did not save it, but if I find it I will personally send it to you.
Matthew,
Whatever possessed you to name me as the Moderator who removed your post, I strongly recommend that you know of what you speak before you do so. I neither saw your post nor removed it and know of it only because another poster mentioned it to me.
Many years,
Neil
_________________________
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#217307 - 12/19/06 12:43 AM
Re: David Petras: Time For The Lord To Act: A Catechetical Commen
[Re: PAL]
|
Irish Melkite
Moderator
Member
Registered: 10/27/03
Posts: 3891
Loc: Massachusetts
|
John Damascene is correct with regard to the page numbers in Fr. Petras' book for the subchapter "Tradition and the Liturgy". It is on pages 31 through 33. I particularly like Father's statement on page 33:
Father says, "We must avoid "traditionalism" like a plague, for a mindless clinging to what has been done can distort and ruin Tradition, but we must be true "traditionalists," people who work to understand the faith and to celebrate it with beauty."
Jim - anyone who reads this Forum even casually would have to see the irony that you are a "fond supporter" of the group that advocates such a strict adherence to the chant/music in the Bokshaj Prostopinije that "slavery" would not be a strong enough term, yet you have no problem with a Liturgikon that would chop up the Divine Liturgy beyond the point of recognition. This type of inconsistency is proof positive that the COMMON AGENDA is "change for the sake of change."
PAL & All,
The purpose of this forum is discussion of books - in this case Father David's book. One can certainly conclude that individual opinions regarding his work are formed, to some extent, on the biases of the reviewer. However, keep in mind:
- each is entitled to their own opinion of it, regardless of how formed,
- there is no requirement that anyone's opinion mirror their words, thoughts, or actions vis-a-vis any other aspect of ecclesial or liturgical life
- the function of this discussion is NOT a review or critique of any reviewer
Hence, future posts should focus on the merit of the work, presentation of one's opinions regarding the content, and dialogue, discussion, and debate of the opinions offered by others, presented in a manner that is civil, charitable, and satisfies the standards of discourse in polite society. Posts which fail to satisfy that standard risk being deleted.
Many years,
Neil
_________________________
"One day all our ethnic traits ... will have disappeared. Time itself is seeing to this. And so we can not think of our communities as ethnic parishes, ... unless we wish to assure the death of our community."
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#217378 - 12/19/06 04:00 PM
Re: David Petras: Time For The Lord To Act: A Catechetical Commen
[Re: Michael B]
|
Jim
Member
Registered: 08/02/02
Posts: 1039
Loc: Arizona
|
Fr. Petras' book again touches on liturgical change in closing his section on Antiphons on page 60:
"Whenever a modification is made in the Liturgy, not everyone will agree with it, for our prayer is too close to the center of our faith and to our relationship with God. What is more important, though, is that our Liturgy is the act of a community under the leadership of our bishops. We are not seeking our own will, but to acknowledge the presence of God together in the Body of Christ that is the Church."
I hope his book helps prepare many people for what may be coming.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#217387 - 12/19/06 04:58 PM
Re: David Petras: Time For The Lord To Act: A Catechetical Commen
[Re: Jim]
|
lm
Member
Registered: 08/29/05
Posts: 778
Loc: usa
|
Jim,
How is it that, in providing an incorrect translation of the Creed (on an issue which Rome has made its mind known), they are not seeking their own will?
lm
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#217391 - 12/19/06 05:10 PM
Re: David Petras: Time For The Lord To Act: A Catechetical Commen
[Re: Jim]
|
lm
Member
Registered: 08/29/05
Posts: 778
Loc: usa
|
What is more important, though, is that our Liturgy is the act of a community under the leadership of our bishops.
The change in the Creed is not directed to the common good but rather special interest groups and it is theologically wrong:
III. Examples of problems related to questions of "inclusive language" and of the use of masculine and feminine terms
B. In the Creed... the above-mentioned tendency to omit the term "men" has effects that are theologically grave. This text "For us and for our salvation"-no longer clearly refers to the salvation of all, but apparently only that of those who are present. The "us" thereby becomes potentially exclusive rather than inclusive.
from: Vatican document 2002 sets, Observations on the English-language Translation of the Roman Missal.
By our new translation of the Creed, we isolate ourselves from the Roman Church, fellow Byzantine Catholics and sound Orthodoxy.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
Moderator: Father Anthony
|
