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#218352 - 01/01/07 11:07 AM
Apophatic Theology and 1 John 3:1-5
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Dr. Eric
Catholic Gyoza
Member
Registered: 11/17/05
Posts: 4009
Loc: First Rome
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"Behold what manner of charity the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called, and should be the sons of God. Therefore the world knoweth not us, because it knew not him. Dearly beloved, we are now the sons of God; and it hath not yet appeared what we shall be. We know, that, when he shall appear, we shall be like to him: because we shall see him as he is. And every one that hath this hope in him, sanctifieth himself, as he also is holy. Whosoever committeth sin committeth also iniquity; and sin is iniquity. And you know that he appeared to take away our sins, and in him there is no sin."
How can this passage be reconciled with the notion that God is unknowable?
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#218364 - 01/01/07 01:15 PM
Re: Apophatic Theology and 1 John 3:1-5
[Re: harmon3110]
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Ghosty
Member
Registered: 09/27/05
Posts: 395
Loc: Seattle
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I think it has less to do with a length of time, since eternity is something entirely different from an infinite stretch of time, and more to do with the mode of seeing God. Even when we see God "face to face", we will not be seeing God as God sees God, because that would be a countless multiplication of Divine Persons. Rather, we will be seeing God as divinized creatures, so our mode will always be "receiving" God as things elevated to God's level, rather than seeing God as our own nature the way God does. In Latin theological terms we will always be participators in the Divine Nature, and never sources of it, and that makes for a very real unknowability; in other words, we can never know God in such a way as to beget the Son, the Word.
That being said, I think the "unknowability" of God is best treated of by St. Thomas Aquinas, who emphasizes the difference between knowing something, or seeing it completely, and comprehending it. I can see all of the light coming from a lightbulb without comprehending all of that light, meaning even though I'm taking in every ray of it I'm not exhausting what can be seen, i.e. I don't perceive all of the colors contained in white light, I don't perceive the individual particle/waves, even though all of those things are contacting my eyes. God's Infinity is perhaps analagous to this, and we will see God directly and without any veils, but no matter what we will not be able to comprehend God, to encompass the entire Divine Nature in such a way as to contain it. Again, that is the Son, the Divine Word. No matter what, we will be receiving the Divine, and It will contain us, rather than us containing It.
This, incidently, is why the Latin tradition holds that the Divine Essence can be seen without taking away from Its "unknowability"; the Divine Essence is fully seen but not comprehended by creatures. We will be totally Divinized, taking the "form of God" as St. Thomas Aquinas says, but always as receivers, participators, as that is our mode as creatures. Fully deified, yet fully creatures at the same time, a paradox without contradiction 
Of course, I view apophatic theology as most appropriately applying to this life rather than to a direct vision of God. There is still a kind of unknowability of God in the next life, as I've just said, but true apophatic theology to me seems to be more about approaching the world in an attempt to understand God, but by taking away the limits that we perceive in the world, a kind of "He's like this, except not really"; i.e. God exists like we exist, except not with a beginning; God is good like we are good, except without limits and as the exemplary source and summit of all goodness rather than approaching an ideal, ect.
Just my thoughts!
Peace and God bless!
Edited by Ghosty (01/01/07 01:19 PM)
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#218368 - 01/01/07 01:54 PM
Re: Apophatic Theology and 1 John 3:1-5
[Re: harmon3110]
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Porter
Member
Registered: 04/01/04
Posts: 1820
Loc: WA, USA.
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John, and a good two cents it is:
And a good topic to begin this day one of 2007. Indeed, how can we even begin to know God who is so much more than we can even begin to contemplate?
But we try and it is done by faith and prayer.
These comments of Jesus help me:
John.17
[3] And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent.
[7] Now they know that everything that thou hast given me is from thee;
[8] for I have given them the words which thou gavest me, and they have received them and know in truth that I came from thee; and they have believed that thou didst send me.
[23] I in them and thou in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that thou hast sent me and hast loved them even as thou hast loved me.
[25] O righteous Father, the world has not known thee, but I have known thee; and these know that thou hast sent me.
[26] I made known to them thy name, and I will make it known, that the love with which thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them."
By faith we know Jesus and Jesus is the window to God. Jesus is God.
Also: "by their fruits you shall know them." Gal 5:22...and we know them by the love, joy, peace, goodness, long-suffering, etc. we see in others." i.e. the fruit of the Holy Spirit who is also God.
All by faith. The scripture passage below comes to mind which I offer for consideration and not for proof texting nor do I mean to take it out of the context in which it was written. It is the one in which the author of Hebrews is beginning to recall a faith history of the chosen people.
I think it still works for us. And it speaks to me.
Hebrews 11:1-3 "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. For by it the men of old received divine approval. By faith we understand that the world was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was made out of things which do not appear. " (RSV)
Peace and blessings,
Porter 
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#218388 - 01/01/07 06:55 PM
Re: Apophatic Theology and 1 John 3:1-5
[Re: Porter]
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Otsheylnik
Member
Registered: 01/19/06
Posts: 228
Loc: Australia
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I should preface by saying that I'm not a scripture scholar, but I've always seen this passage reflecting the expectation of the early church for the imminence of the second coming; in the same way as Revelation for example (also in the Johannine corpus).
That event will render God present so that we will know Him in a new way, and we will also know what we will be in the culmination of our realtionship with God.
Ned
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#218421 - 01/02/07 07:47 AM
Re: Apophatic Theology and 1 John 3:1-5
[Re: Porter]
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harmon3110
Grateful
Member
Registered: 08/03/04
Posts: 3075
Loc: Ohio, USA
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By faith we know Jesus and Jesus is the window to God. Jesus is God.
Amen !
Also: "by their fruits you shall know them." Gal 5:22...and we know them by the love, joy, peace, goodness, long-suffering, etc. we see in others." i.e. the fruit of the Holy Spirit who is also God.
Amen !
All by faith. The scripture passage below comes to mind which I offer for consideration and not for proof texting nor do I mean to take it out of the context in which it was written. It is the one in which the author of Hebrews is beginning to recall a faith history of the chosen people.
I think it still works for us. And it speaks to me.
Hebrews 11:1-3 "Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. For by it the men of old received divine approval. By faith we understand that the world was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was made out of things which do not appear. " (RSV)
Amen, Amen, Amen !
What helps me is the knowledge (I forget the verse) that the Holy Spirit is the one who prays through us, to Christ, uniting us to Christ. Faith in God is already the presence of God and the action of God in us. Indeed, as Christ said, the Holy Spirit is the first fruits of His own resurrection: to be shared with all eternally, for all who would receive it.
-- John
Edited by harmon3110 (01/02/07 07:48 AM)
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#218506 - 01/03/07 03:37 AM
Re: Apophatic Theology and 1 John 3:1-5
[Re: theophan]
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Apotheoun
Member
Registered: 03/25/05
Posts: 1466
Loc: SF Bay Area, CA
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God truly reveals Himself to man, while always remaining unknown at the same time; for the Lord is seen through a vision that consists in not seeing (St. Gregory of Nyssa, "The Life of Moses," no. 163).
Moreover, the real distinction between the divine essence and the divine energies is vital to a proper understanding of the mystery of theosis, because God's essence is utterly beyond vision, while His energies come down to us, and it is by participating in the uncreated divine energies that a man receives an intimate experience of personal communion with God, and assimilation into the divine life and glory. Apophasis is required because the divine essence is adiastemic, i.e., it is utterly heteroousios in relation to the created world.
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#218510 - 01/03/07 05:31 AM
Re: Apophatic Theology and 1 John 3:1-5
[Re: Dr. Eric]
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Marian
inactive
Member
Registered: 04/10/05
Posts: 809
Loc: +
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because we shall see him as he is
It is absolutely impossible that we understand this, how it will be.
We must be humble, we must pray, add fire on fire, focus our mind on the word of Holy Evangelia, to attend the Divine Liturgy and confess and partake the Holy Body and Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Can we love truly, what can we do?
Mercy of God we need and all will be as He said. True is His word.
Have mercy upon us, God, have much mercy. Amin.
In Risen Christ <><
Marian+
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#218638 - 01/04/07 10:40 AM
Re: Apophatic Theology and 1 John 3:1-5
[Re: Dr. Eric]
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lm
Member
Registered: 08/29/05
Posts: 778
Loc: usa
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Dr. Eric,
You have hit upon the reason why I think the essence/ energies distintion given by Apotheoun (no offense, sir) above fails. You wouldn't really get to see God at that would contradict the passage from scripture which you referenced above.
lm
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#218642 - 01/04/07 11:06 AM
Re: Apophatic Theology and 1 John 3:1-5
[Re: Athanasius The L]
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lm
Member
Registered: 08/29/05
Posts: 778
Loc: usa
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But there is of course one God. And since God's energies aren't Him, but something else, then to be united to His energies would not be union with him but with these uncreated energies.
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#218643 - 01/04/07 11:09 AM
Re: Apophatic Theology and 1 John 3:1-5
[Re: lm]
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lm
Member
Registered: 08/29/05
Posts: 778
Loc: usa
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One must be very careful of course when speaking of God's Essence--it's not as though you can actually understand what that is -- unless of course you're God.
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#218646 - 01/04/07 11:22 AM
Re: Apophatic Theology and 1 John 3:1-5
[Re: lm]
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Athanasius The L
AthanasiusTheLesser
Member
Registered: 06/29/06
Posts: 721
Loc: Houston, TX
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But there is of course one God. And since God's energies aren't Him, but something else, then to be united to His energies would not be union with him but with these uncreated energies.
God's energies are indeed God. I'll use the example of love. We know that God is love because Holy Scripture tells us so (1 John 4:8,16). But we do not say that God's essence is love, because God is indeed love, but is also more than love. Following the teachings of the Church Fathers, we maintain that we cannot define God in terms of God's essence. We know of God's love because we experience it, but we cannot use love-or any other divine attribute-to name God's essence. So these are our alternatives:1) there was once when God's love did not exist; if we say this, we admit to change in God, which contradicts both Holy Scripture (James 1:17) and the teaching of the Church, 2) God, in His essence, is love, which the Eastern Fathers reject, because God is indeed love, but is more than love, and because God's essence is unknowable, or 3) the distinction of God's essence and God's uncreated energies, which was taught by St. Basil the Great and has remained a part of the Eastern Christian understanding of God ever since.
Ryan
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