Keithg29, brick22, BensGal, Lady Byzantine, Eli Akim, Kirk, Jerzy, Rusyn53, Lou, evergreen, old orthodox, PresJuliana, Heracleides, Addai, Jablinka
3134 Registered Users |
|
14 registered
(Ung-Certez, Magyar, theophilus, Amadeus, Stephanos I, Memo Rodriguez, Terry Bohannon, Byzantine TX, stormshadow, JSMelkiteOrthodoxy, John K, carson daniel lauffer, 2 invisible)
and 238 anonymous users online.
|
|
The Byzantine Forum also hosts these private forums:
The Deacon’s Door (for deacons and deacon
candidates and their wives), the Orthodox Christian
Studies Forum (for currently enrolled students only of the distance education programs
offered by the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America) and
the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church Clergy Forum
(for clergy, religious, and clergy wives of that Church). Contact an administrator for
access.
|
|
3134 Members
20 Forums
21730 Topics
283963 Posts
Max Online: 1087 @ 07/16/07 01:09 PM
|
|
|
#267438 - 12/08/07 08:34 PM
Re: Suffering is our path to glory
[Re: theophan]
|
Ray Kaliss
Member
Registered: 11/22/04
Posts: 483
Loc: Meriden, CT
|
ray--
On Prayer and His Life is Mine are both available from St. Vladimir's Seminary Press, Crestwood, Tuckahoe, NY.
BOB
Thank you.
I already told my wife this is the one Christmas present I want.
Peace be with us all
-ray
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#267753 - 12/10/07 05:24 PM
Re: Suffering is our path to glory
[Re: theophan]
|
Ray Kaliss
Member
Registered: 11/22/04
Posts: 483
Loc: Meriden, CT
|
I think that's the challenge in the spiritual life: NOT to try to jump into works that are far beyond one's experience and faith development.
BOB
That seems true Bob..
I was trained in St John of the Cross for several years a longggg time ago ... very confusing ... only in the past 5 years do I understand him and think 'this is so simple - why didn't I get it before?' and that is some 30 years later!
Peace to you and your church Bob.
-ray
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#267781 - 12/10/07 08:34 PM
Re: Suffering is our path to glory
[Re: Terry Bohannon]
|
theophan
Moderator
Member
Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 2685
Loc: Hollidaysburg, PA
|
TERRY:
Did you attempt to read him in conjunction with an experienced spiritual director? Sometimes that makes the read a bit easier. If you approach your confessor and ask him to read a chapter or two and then meet with you so you can discuss it and ask questions you may definitely benefit from St. John of the Cross. No need to wait 30 years.
I picked up this work and no one that i knew had ever heard of the man or of this work. So I tried it and kept my spiritual father informed, but he did not read it at the same time so it never went anywhere.
You might be able to find someone online with whom you could study and profit from some of St. John's work.
But on a side note, one ought to always begin a spiritual--or any study--with a prayer that asks the Holy Spirit to enlighten our minds with the study we are about to undertake. I use this one:
Lord Jesus, send down on us the grace of the Holy Spirit to endow and confirm our spiritual powers, so that, giving heed to learning, we may increase therein for Your greater honor and glory, for the benefit and building up of Your Holy Church, for the benefit and building up of the community of which we are members, and for the benefit, comfort, and support of our families. AMEN.
In Christ,
BOB
Edited by theophan (12/10/07 08:40 PM)
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#269757 - 12/21/07 01:44 PM
Re: Suffering is our path to glory
[Re: Michael_Thoma]
|
theophan
Moderator
Member
Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 2685
Loc: Hollidaysburg, PA
|
Mar Ignathios (St. Ignatius) of Antioch who is quoted as saying: "True, I am in love with suffering, but I do not know if I deserve the honor."
Michael Thoma:
In the context of this whole thread, what a profound next step in the meditation on Christian suffering and its eternal value. I think I'll have to print this all out and use it for some meditation after the whole Nativity festivities are over.
Thank you so much for this addtion.
". . . I am in love with suffering, but I do not know if I deserve the honor."
In Christ,
BOB
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#269934 - 12/22/07 10:05 PM
Re: Suffering is our path to glory
[Re: theophan]
|
theophan
Moderator
Member
Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 2685
Loc: Hollidaysburg, PA
|
As a tangential note to this thread and in light of Ignathios (St. Ignatius) of Antioch's quote, it has occurred to me that he is speaking of Jesus.
When we think of suffering in the context of our Christian commitment and in light of Christ's suffering for our sake and the way in which we can participate in it for eternal value, it might be well to think of "suffering" as the Person of Jesus Himself. In the same way that He says that He is Truth--that is, that Truth originates in His Person and is identical to Him; He is Truth as Being--so He is Mercy because it, too, originates in His Person and there is no mercy or truth apart from Him. So, too, is suffering a Person--all suffering that has eternal, redemptive value originates in His Person as Being.
So when the venerable Mar Ignatios says that he is in love with suffering, he is saying that he is in love with Christ; and then wonders, as we all ought, if he is worthy of Christ. He has pierced the Mystery of God coming here in the coming Feast of the Incarnation of God in the flesh, Jesus Christ's Nativity. No, we all fall short of His Glory, but He makes us worthy by plunging us into His Mystery--His redemptive act.
In Christ,
BOB
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#271278 - 01/03/08 08:09 PM
Re: Suffering is our path to glory
[Re: theophan]
|
theophan
Moderator
Member
Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 2685
Loc: Hollidaysburg, PA
|
These few paragraphs from Metropolitan Anthony Bloom's work seems to fit into this whole idea of our suffering as Christians and how we live with it.
From Living Prayer, by Metropolitan Anthony (Bloom), Templegate Publishers, Springfield, IL, c. 1966, pp14 to 19.
“Love your enemies, bless them that hate you” (Mt 5:44), is a command that may be more or less easy to follow; but to forgive those who inflict suffering one one’s beloved is altogether different, and it makes people feel as if taken in disloyalty. Yet, the greater our love for the one who suffers, the greater our ability to share and to forgive, and in that sense the greatest love is achieved when one can say with Rabbi Yehel Mikhael “I am my beloved.” As long as we can say “I” and “he” we do not share the suffering and we cannot accept it. The mother of God at the foot of the cross was not in tears, as shown so often in western paintings; she was so completely in communion with her son that she had nothing to protest against. She was going through her own death. The mother was fulfilling now what hat begun on the day of the presentation of Christ to the temple, when she had given her son. Alone of all the children of Israel he had been accepted as a sacrifice of blood. And she, who had brought him then, was now accepting the consequence of her ritual gesture which was finding fulfilment in reality. As he was then in communion with her, she was completely in communion with him now and she had nothing to protest against.
It is love that makes us one with the object of our love and makes it possible for us to share unreservedly, not only the suffering but also the attitude towards suffering and the executioner. We cannot imagine the mother of God or John the disciple protesting against what was the explicit will of the son of God crucified. “No one is taking my life from me, I lay it down of myself” (Jn 10:18). He was dying willingly, of his own accord for the salvation of the world; his death was this salvation and therefore those who believed in him and wanted to be at one with him could share the suffering of his death, could undergo the passion together with him; but they could not reject it, they could not turn against the crowd that had crucified Christ, because this crucifixion was the will of Christ himself.
We can protest against someone’s suffering, we can protest against someone’s death, either when he himself, rightly or wrongly, takes a stand against it, or else when we do not share his intention and his attitude towards death and suffering; but then our love for that person is an incomplete love and creates separation. . . .
But to share with Christ his passion, his crucifixion, his death, means to accept unreservedly all these events, in the same spirit he did, that is, to accept them in an act of free will, to suffer together with the man of sorrows, to be there in silence, the very silence of Christ, interrupted only by a few decisive words, the silence of real communion; not just the silence of pity, but of compassion, which allows us to grow into complete oneness with the other so that there is no longer one and the other, but only one life and one death.
On many occasions throughout history people witnessed persecution and were not afraid, but shared in the suffering and did not protest; for instance . . . martyrs who helped one another but never turned against the tormentors. The spirit of martyrdom . . . in itself, its basic attitude (is) a spirit of love which cannot be defeated by suffering or injustice. A very young priest . . . imprisoned at the beginning of the Russian revolution, and came out a broken man, was asked what was left of him, and he answered: :Nothing is left of me, they have burnt out every single thing, love only survives.” A man who can say that has the right attitude and anyone who shares his tragedy must also share in his unshakeable love.
. . . a Russian bishop . . . said that it is a privilege for a Christian to die a martyr, because none by a martyr can, at the last Judgment, take his stand in front of God’s Judgment seat and say, “According to thy word and thy example, I have forgiven. Thou hast no claim against them any more.” Which means that the one who suffers martyrdom in Christ, whose love is not defeated by suffering, acquires unconditional power of forgiving over the one who has inflicted suffering. And this can be applied . . . on the level of everyday life; anyone who suffers a minor injustice (and is in Christ)** from someone else can forgive or refuse to forgive. But this is a two-edged sword; if you do not forgive, you will not be forgiven either.
_____________________________________________________
**my addition
It would seem that one who has been plunged into Christ acquires the ability to “put on Christ” and give every bit of his suffering an eternal value, even the most minor slights inflicted by others. It would also seem that it is a privilege for a Christian to suffer wrongs without complaint because of Christ’s example and our baptismal commitment to become like Him, thereby giving them eternal value. To refuse forgiveness, is to refuse Christ because He is calling us in every situation to join Him in His salvific suffering for the whole of mankind.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
#271308 - 01/03/08 11:26 PM
Re: Suffering is our path to glory
[Re: theophan]
|
Dandelion
BANNED
Member
Registered: 11/20/07
Posts: 113
Loc: Henderson, NV, U.S.A.
|
What exactly do you mean by--
 But to share with Christ his passion, his crucifixion, his death, means to accept *unreservedly all these events, in the same spirit he did, that is, to accept them in an act of free will, to suffer together with the man of sorrows*, to be there in silence, the very silence of Christ, interrupted only by a few decisive words, the silence of real communion; not just the silence of pity, but of compassion, which allows us to grow into complete oneness with the other so that there is no longer one and the other, but only one life and one death.
On many occasions throughout history people witnessed persecution and were not afraid, but shared in the suffering and did not protest; for instance . . . martyrs who helped one another but never turned against the tormentors. The spirit of martyrdom . . . in itself, its basic attitude (is) a spirit of love which cannot be defeated by suffering or injustice. A very young priest . . . imprisoned at the beginning of the Russian revolution, and came out a broken man, was asked what was left of him, and he answered: :Nothing is left of me, they have burnt out every single thing, love only survives.” A man who can say that has the right attitude and anyone who shares his tragedy must also share in his unshakeable love.
. . . a Russian bishop . . . said that it is a privilege for a Christian to die a martyr, because none by a martyr can, at the last Judgment, take his stand in front of God’s Judgment seat and say, “According to thy word and thy example, I have forgiven. Thou hast no claim against them any more.” Which means that the one who suffers martyrdom in Christ, whose love is not defeated by suffering, acquires unconditional power of forgiving over the one who has inflicted suffering. And this can be applied . . . on the level of everyday life; anyone who suffers a minor injustice (and is in Christ)** from someone else can forgive or refuse to forgive. But this is a two-edged sword; if you do not forgive, you will not be forgiven either.
[Is there a difference between from what you state here about suffering and forms of abuse?.
I am a little confused about what is considered suffering and abuse.
Jesus doesn't want us to be abused and yet he accepted it?
and as a Christian are we suppose to do what we can with in our means for ourself or our neighbor and just sit there and not try to defend ourself as opposed to being martyr?]
{I do not know why the Lord always puts my mind in a contrary mode in trying to figure these things out}.
Thank You & God Bless,
Dandelion
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#271343 - 01/04/08 08:58 AM
Re: Suffering is our path to glory
[Re: Dandelion]
|
theophan
Moderator
Member
Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 2685
Loc: Hollidaysburg, PA
|
[Is there a difference between from what you state here about suffering and forms of abuse?.
Dandelion:
I'm quoting Metropolitan Anthony and relating this passage to the one first posted on this thread. It relates to personal suffering--disease, chronic illness, our limitations and other things with which we bear in life that bring to our attention the facts that we are on pilgrimage, that we have no permanent home here, and that we are being stripped as Christ was stripped of His garments of our earthly attachemtns in order to be ready for our eternal home with Him.
That having been said, abuse has no place in this understanding if you mean that women should accept abuse at the hands of their husbands or significant others--or the reverse for men who suffer abuse at the hands of their spouses and significant others--as a religious duty. Certainly one has the right to distance oneself from further abuse and should do so.
On the other hand, whatever suffering we have can have eternal value, whether it is considered abuse or not. It seems to me that this is a profound set of insights into the value of suffering in the life of the Christian. The problem here is that so few of us come to the full understanding of what Baptism is about and how it links our every life activity to Him. We tend to recoil at anything that involves suffering--I even listened to a lecture by a Catholic bishop last evening who stated that suffering is an evil that we should pray to be delivered from. Having suffered at the hands of another, we ought to come to understand that we are called to forgive the person who has caused our suffering. I think that as in so many areas of the spiritual life, we are called to follow as the Lord has given us capacity to follow. The vision that these two holy men have outlined is difficult and can even be said to be "the narrow way." Whether any of us has the grace and capacity to walk it is another matter.
In Christ,
BOB
Edited by theophan (01/04/08 10:33 AM)
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
Moderator: Father Deacon Ed, theophan
|
