wpk, Keithg29, brick22, BensGal, Lady Byzantine, Eli Akim, Kirk, Jerzy, Rusyn53, Lou, evergreen, old orthodox, PresJuliana, Heracleides, Addai
3135 Registered Users |
|
The Byzantine Forum also hosts these private forums:
The Deacon’s Door (for deacons and deacon
candidates and their wives), the Orthodox Christian
Studies Forum (for currently enrolled students only of the distance education programs
offered by the Antiochian Orthodox Christian Archdiocese of North America) and
the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church Clergy Forum
(for clergy, religious, and clergy wives of that Church). Contact an administrator for
access.
|
|
3135 Members
20 Forums
21737 Topics
284047 Posts
Max Online: 1087 @ 07/16/07 01:09 PM
|
|
|
#266850 - 12/06/07 01:39 PM
Re: Problem in a parish
[Re: Orthodox Catholic]
|
Job
Cantor
Member
Registered: 11/01/05
Posts: 567
Loc: Connecticut
|
Dear Friends,
The new pastor in my in-laws' parish has been quite authoritarian toward the parish committee of late and has upset a number of people.
He invokes the "catholic canons" about the (secondary) role of the laity and really bosses the UCWL branch around (last week, he seriously offended the president who simply stayed for the DL and then left for home afterwards without staying for fellowship etc.).
With the general meeting and the appointments of the new committee pending, he said that HE will make the appointments himself (and already has). The "elections" will simply confirm the slate of candidates he has hand-picked.
My father-in-law went with a group from the committee to the town council and won a concession for the parish. When he came home, the pastor was having coffee with his wife. He was beaming and said that the priest's place was with his parishioners at the town council and that he should thank the presenter.
At this, the priest rose up in anger and told him that he would certainly NOT thank anyone, that it was their job, that they should have done that a long time ago etc. As he stormed out, my mother in law ran to try and smooth things over. He simply said he was offended deeply and left.
What gives here?
Alex
Alex...regardless of what you/and others, may have been taught regarding parish councils...they are mostly show...in the Catholic Church the Priest can over rule anything the council says or does...howevever, the "better" priests humbly take the council and guide them if there is a reason for why their proposal should not happen...
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#266871 - 12/06/07 02:37 PM
Re: Problem in a parish
[Re: Orthodox Catholic]
|
Epiphanius
Za myr z'wysot ...
Member
Registered: 07/15/02
Posts: 299
Loc: Orlando, Florida
|
The new pastor in my in-laws' parish has been quite authoritarian toward the parish committee of late and has upset a number of people ...
You don't mention whether this priest is old and set in his ways, or young and still "wet behind the ears." If the former, there isn't much that can be done; if the latter, there is still a chance that he could change dramatically once he realizes how ineffective his methods are. In any case, though, a situation like this can be a real challenge to one's commitment to the Gospel!
It would be easy to recommend getting to know this priest and trying to understand "where he's coming from," but the biggest difficulty will probably be dealing with the members of his new, hand-picked parish committee ...
My father-in-law went with a group from the committee to the town council and won a concession for the parish. When he came home, the pastor was having coffee with his wife. He was beaming and said that the priest's place was with his parishioners at the town council and that he should thank the presenter.
I had some problems with this anecdote. For starters, I take it it was your father-in-law who was beaming (over the accomplishment), proudly announcing it to the pastor along with the polite suggestion that a word of thanks to the presenter would be a good idea, and that in the flow of the conversation, he happened to mention to the pastor that he "should have been there."
The reason I say this is that the way you narrated the story, your father-in-law comes off looking awfully arrogant as well--telling the pastor that "the priest's place was with his parishioners at the town council" and that "he [the pastor] should thank the presenter." This could either be a case of careless narrating, or an example of a real problem that is being overlooked in all this.
I realize I'm at risk of being judged arrogant myself in giving this answer, so please don't take it for more than it is--a limited answer based on limited information. 
Peace,
Deacon Richard
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#266881 - 12/06/07 04:21 PM
Re: Problem in a parish
[Re: Epiphanius]
|
Orthodox Catholic
Member
Registered: 11/05/01
Posts: 22048
Loc: Canada
|
Dear Friends,
Actually, I have been tremendously buoyed by your posts and your great insights into human nature!
The priest is in his forties, a Basilian and from the West. He has gotten progressively angrier and takes second place to no one in terms of arrogance. Due to a bad personal situation, we no longer see one another or speak to one another (it isn't my parish anyway).
The point about closing the parish - WOW! That is exactly what the grand fear is right now among the parishioners. How insightful!!
The parish didn't have a parish priest, except a visiting priest and it ran itself.
But not any longer - the people are shocked by the far-reaching changes that say to them, "I am the parish, you listen to me." At least one person on the committee that I've heard about has actually been threatened with expulsion from the parish. The UCWL president has been told that she can "write to the pope if she likes" but it won't change the situation.
And he frequently threatens to "send my report to the bishop telling him how disobedient you are toward me and recommend he shut the parish down."
Today there was another quite loud fight between him and my father in law (who does insist that he thank a parishioner, with whom Father has crossed swords before, for what he accomplished at town council for the entire parish - no evidence that he'll back down on that). They yelled at each other, then moved into another room where the yelling continued, then came back where the pastor just left, then they came back later and shook hands, even though Father at first refused (nice public example that!).
My daddy in law is leaving the committee, after 15 years as its president, in February. Today he told the people in the hall who saw this spectacle that he wants to resign now ("and I won't be in church this Sunday either!").
He is in his seventies and doesn't need this Byzantine Silliness (BS). My mother in law seems to want to smooth things over.
She is now very suspicious of him etc.
When I had my fatal run-in with him, I told him I forgave him (and he admitted what he did to me) but that I could never have anything to do with him or ever trust him again. My in-laws are finding all this out the hard way now.
As for my father in law being arrogant, he has often told the pastor, who is much younger, that "you should have been here or there" and the like. It is now that he is blowing up, and this is now becoming a daily occurrence.
I will stay out of it since they know (ad nauseam) what I think of the situation.
But should my father in law resign now, two months in advance of the end of his term? He has defended the fellow to the point where parishioners who are disaffected now, for the first time in memory, are against him and would like him out as president (what a change from the days when the parish signed petitions to my mother in law to make him stay and where the priests begged her to allow him to stay etc.).
I agree that this is one parish one doesn't want to be in and there are people there who are difficult. But these problems NEVER existed before.
I'm staying out of it, as I said. But what a mess.
Alex
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#267043 - 12/07/07 09:28 AM
Re: Problem in a parish
[Re: Miller]
|
Orthodox Catholic
Member
Registered: 11/05/01
Posts: 22048
Loc: Canada
|
Dear Miller,
You are so very astute, sir!!
And so very right that this would never have happened under Vladyka Isidore!
He studied in Rome and everything you said is spot on.
IF this parish is targeted for closure (and I understand there might be a Greek Orthodox church that is ready to offer a large sum of money for the property - shades of the Orangeville Monastery and Shrine), then that would be most sad given the number of people served by it (including Ukrainians from Ukraine who enjoy going there and find welcoming fellowship).
As for the financial problems you-know-who now finds himself in, it is just amazing that we've been sent (Latinized) bishops and clergy from western Canada to ostensibly "whip us into shape."
The argument circulated most is that our former sainted bishop somehow mismanaged the Eparchy's finances and there is need for some reorganization by getting in the people from western Canada etc.
Given the deplorable situation the eparchy is in now, where is the logic of that argument? It is all in the letters on the eparchial website for all to see and to draw their own conclusions from.
In a recent article about the Orangeville Monastery in the RC Catholic Register (week of Nov. 21) Fr. Tataryn of St Demetrius is quoted as saying that the bishop is just not interested in monastic life/spirituality etc. Given that he is/was (?) an adviser to you-know-who, that is quite the public statement coming from him.
But the pastor has taken on quite the authoritarian stance and has made the threat of reporting to the bishop and recommending that the parish be closed down etc. He is also quite quick to threaten people with being "put out of the parish" for disobedience!
The parish is owned by the Eparchy and is not, as I understand it, technically a "Basilian property."
You know who was formerly a Basilian and there are those (I among them) who feel that since there is such a "disconnect" present whenever the Basilians are involved, who knows if the fellow wasn't asked to formally leave that order of canons regular before becoming a bishop. In other words, it all comes down to the same unhappy thing.
My father in law has invested a lot of time there and his friends are there too. He doesn't want to leave his post of 15 years on a sour note and, despite the blow-ups of recent days, has simply resigned himself to waiting out the end of his term until February.
Normally, my in-laws stay for several hours after DL on Sunday but this Sunday they have asked us to go out with them for Sunday brunch immediately following DL . . . That I never thought I'd live to see! 
In any event, the pastor has already appointed his own committee (there is a group that is promoting his great opponent in the parish for president and that is annoying him to no end).
It is just that we in this Eparchy are not used to such tactics and that parish that has always run by itself on the basis of a free vote by the committee is in shock in the face of such bullying.
Thank you for understanding and for your insights, Miller! Thank you all!
Alex
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#267563 - 12/09/07 06:52 PM
Re: Problem in a parish
[Re: Orthodox Catholic]
|
Fr. Al
Member
Registered: 11/03/03
Posts: 185
Loc: Farmington Hills,MI
|
Dear Alex,It certainly sounds like a disturbing situation.There are some priests and others who do abuse their authority.However,some of the Orthodox in North America have gone a bit to the other extreme,and allowed parish councils to run every aspect of the priest's life even to the point of how he is to conduct the services.There is one extreme case right here in the Detroit area,where the parish council decreed that because of the AID'S epidemic,every communicant had to recieve Holy Communion on an individual spoon!In other words,300 Communicants,300 spoons!I won't mention the parish name nor jurisdiction,except to say that it is neither Russian nor Ukrainian.I myself wouldn't be a party to such sacrelige for any salary,I'd sooner be defrocked or voluntarily step away from the priesthood.
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
|
#267658 - 12/10/07 09:43 AM
Re: Problem in a parish
[Re: Fr. Al]
|
Orthodox Catholic
Member
Registered: 11/05/01
Posts: 22048
Loc: Canada
|
Dear Friends,
Well, things are coming to a head quickly!
My father in law contacted the former parish priest, the former Ihumen, who said that the current incumbent was sent to their parish as a "penance." He said that it obviously wasn't working and will call the current Ihumen to set up a meeting with the committee to discuss things.
Tomorrow is the last meeting of the committee at which time they will be thanked and told "so long." But they are also planning to let the cat out of the bag about the fact that there will be no further elections for committee positions etc. That is something that will be quite unexpected for the pastor.
Unfortunately, all this will mean that my in-laws will leave their parish of over 15 years. It is just that they don't intend to leave with their tail between their legs.
The former pastor, for whom I was an altar-server for years, gave my in-laws plenty of pep talk, said he would pray for the parish, told my father in law he was "pure gold through and through" etc.
I thanked him for his words that were and are "balm on the soul!" 
The former pastor is a great and holy priest who lives to inspire and minister to others. Contacting him directly was the best idea and I got it thanks to the reflections presented here.
So thank you, everyone!
Alex
|
|
Top
|
|
|
|
Moderator: Father Anthony, Fr. Deacon Lance, Fatherthomasloya
|
