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#273579 - 01/16/08 08:35 PM
Re: Problem in a parish
[Re: theophan]
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Alice
Moderator
Member
Registered: 01/12/03
Posts: 6213
Loc: New York
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Side note: Our parish council decided to paint our rather large foyer (gathering space) orange because someone (the pastor) thought it would be more cheerful than the light off-white it was when it was built a few years ago. But no one thought of the burgundy and light green borders of the carpet. The original design had high windows that were to give off plenty of light, giving one the "Light of Christ" as the welcoming atmosphere. I wonder what orange is supposed to mean--Halloween? So, Alex, the craziness goes on no matter where you happen to be.
...Not to mention just plain bad taste in clashing colors with the carpeting...HELLO...just what in the world were they thinking?!?!?! 
Bad taste aside, from what you have said elsewhere today, I think that it is time, in my humble opinion, that you find a better spiritual home for yourself, Bob...you are a gem, and God needs you somewhere where you will be able to edify those around you. These people seem sadly and tragically beyond any spiritual help right now. I know--I was once in a parish like that.
In Christ,
Alice
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#273673 - 01/17/08 09:41 AM
Re: Problem in a parish
[Re: Alice]
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Orthodox Catholic
Member
Registered: 11/05/01
Posts: 22048
Loc: Canada
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Dear Bob,
So they showed their true colours, eh? 
Or perhaps that was in honour of the Orange Revolution?
Up here, "RDL" means "Rampantly Divided Laity."
We have decided to attend the Theophany services and holy supper tomorrow night at the parish, come heck or high water.
The church belongs to everyone and not just to . . . well, you know what I mean :).
And it is just so nice to learn of Alice's great designer sensitivities and abilities!!
Alex
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#273704 - 01/17/08 12:02 PM
Re: Problem in a parish
[Re: Orthodox Catholic]
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theophan
Moderator
Member
Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 2690
Loc: Hollidaysburg, PA
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Dear ALEX:
That's why I stay. The people in the parish are my extended family. They've seen me through so much in the last quarter century, including three years in therapy after my work injuries. They keep me focused. In fact, one of the things that irks my pastor so much is that people come up to me and ask me to pray for their intentions rather than him.
A silent witness to injustice is what drives them nuts. And keep a cheerful face in the face of their hostility. That usually drives them nuts, too.  
In Christ,
BOB
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#273713 - 01/17/08 12:26 PM
Re: Problem in a parish
[Re: theophan]
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Orthodox Catholic
Member
Registered: 11/05/01
Posts: 22048
Loc: Canada
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Dear Bob,
Ah, now that must really get under your pastor's skin and irk his flesh!!
(Good for you . . . ;))
I once met a fellow in a church hall during a luncheon and was absolutely convinced he was in Orders - he just made you want to confide in him and ask him to pray for you.
But he was just a regular Christian layman!
And the monastic way of life was originally established by laymen with very few priests involved.
But then "creeping clericalization" set in . . .
It's just so great to know you, Bob!
(And Alice too!)
Alex
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#273729 - 01/17/08 01:23 PM
Re: Problem in a parish
[Re: AMM]
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Orthodox Catholic
Member
Registered: 11/05/01
Posts: 22048
Loc: Canada
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Dear AMM,
Well, there is a great cultural divide between Ukies in Western Canada and Ukies in the East.
The ones in the West have been there, for the most part, for over 100 years and are very Canadianized, Anglicized etc. They also tend to maintain (judging from the ones in my family) the rural traditions they brought with them from Ukraine.
They are "Ukrainian" in terms of traditions, but they are completely different from the World War II nationalist immigrants and also from the current wave of immigration from Ukraine (for example, the ability to speak Ukrainian is not a defining aspect of their identity).
There is a vocal number in that parish are from Western Canada (and the ones who are "Anglicized" tend to associate with them as well). The smaller "party" if you will is the Ukrainian post-World War II group and the current Ukrainians (who are often here on a work visa and will be going back).
Get this - the Western Ukrainian Canadians (or "WUC's") want the Liturgy in Ukrainian and not in English, even though they insist on an English sermon and bilingual recitations of the Our Father and Creed, the Epistle and the Gospel.
They appear to be naturally suspicious of the other Ukies (especially the others' claim to be "more Ukie" than they).
In this parish the WUC's appear to have really entrenched themselves and the priest, being politically astute (and no one suggests otherwise!), has been careful to be mean and to alienate only the other two groups while catering to the WUC's (he didn't like the Women's League and so he alienated the whole group - the problem is there are WUC's among them who are now against him and have joined in the general "let's go report him to his superiors" movement.
Aren't you glad you are Orthodox? The reason I say this is that, in my family throughout our history, whenever something like this came up, it was the beginning of the people's movement over to the Ukrainian Orthodox Church of Canada.
When we had problems with a former Eparch (quite serious ones), I overheard our Orthodox Bishop tell the UGCC one, "What is going on in your Church that so many of your people are coming over to us?"
That's no joke.
Alex
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#273748 - 01/17/08 03:01 PM
Re: Problem in a parish
[Re: Orthodox Catholic]
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theophan
Moderator
Member
Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 2690
Loc: Hollidaysburg, PA
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ALEX:
Tell your father-in-law that the best revenge is to live well. Or so I've heard.
Stay in the parish. Walk in each Sunday and Feast day with a big smile and hearty greeting to each and ever person, especially the priest. Be positive about everything that goes on. Kill them with kindness. Tell everyone what a great job they are doing, especially if they are struggling to put together a committee to do what he did himself.
They'll go positively mad wondering what he's up to. Can't have any more good clean fun than that. And he can go home and laugh himself into tears after each DL.
If you get angry when someone does something to you, they have control over you. If you shake it off and revel in the burden being taken away, you'll live longer and the burden will shift to the other. Let this stuff roll off your back like water off a duck.
In Christ,
BOB
Edited by theophan (01/17/08 03:02 PM)
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#273757 - 01/17/08 03:43 PM
Re: Problem in a parish
[Re: AMM]
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Orthodox Catholic
Member
Registered: 11/05/01
Posts: 22048
Loc: Canada
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Dear AMM,
Thank you, Big Guy!
The fact is that when the UGCCer's went "on Mass" to the UOCC, theology certainly wasn't a big deal at all.
If the UOCC priests could just get them to say the Creed without the Filioque - that was all they were contented with. Instead of commemorating the Pope, they commemorated the "Holy Ukrainian Orthodox Church" and our "God-loving and God-protected Mother Ukraina - you didn't even need to ask them who would win in a contest like that!
Everything else remained the same and the UOCC Metropolitan Ohienko, realizing there was no way the new converts to the UOCC (90% + were former UGCC) were NOT going to kneel twice during the DL he allowed them to kneel during the Great Entrance and the Consecration (but not during Communion itself) something many UOCC parishes do until the present.
The "iconography" of UOCC parishes tended to be Latin-inspired and naturalist (Kyivan Baroque? ) and there were even pictures of the Sacred Hearts up etc.
In Western Ukraine, I also understand that Orthodox Churches there have adapted to the EC cultural context by adopting Stations of the Cross, the Sacred Hearts devotion and even Eucharistic Adoration.
Getting the UGCC converts used to the UOCC was a cinch by comparison.
Interestingly enough, there still is a kind of "lack of appreciation" shall we say among UGCCers of those who are descended from converts to the UOCC . . .
My uncle was always Orthodox so he was well respected in the family. His wife was a convert from a UGCC family so she is less well respected . . . or not talked about at all
Ah, the joys of growing up in an ethnic family!
One cannot fathom it until one has lived it!
Cheers,
Alex
Edited by Orthodox Catholic (01/17/08 03:47 PM)
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#273793 - 01/17/08 07:53 PM
Re: Problem in a parish
[Re: theophan]
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theophan
Moderator
Member
Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 2690
Loc: Hollidaysburg, PA
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#274380 - 01/21/08 04:12 PM
Re: Problem in a parish
[Re: theophan]
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Orthodox Catholic
Member
Registered: 11/05/01
Posts: 22048
Loc: Canada
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Dear Bob,
O.K.!
It turned out to be the worst ever Theophany celebration I've ever experienced (and there has never been a bad Theophany celebration that we were at before).
The whole atmosphere was severely "poisoned."
Again, the sermon was punctuated by references to Western Canada and how ice-Crosses were made for the outdoor water blessings. One would think that western Canada invented this tradition . . .
The Father Superior sat almost alone at a separate table and didn't seem to communicate with the pastor (who sat at a table together with his known "cronies").
Since the choir, composed almost entirely of recent immigrants, is in support of the pastor, they had their table placed right in the centre of the hall (and some said they had their tickets paid for by the parish). That is fine, but many thought that was really a case of "buying support" by you-know-who.
What was the worst of it was that the table at which we were sitting with my father in law didn't appear to get much table service or food . . . one fellow even joked with him that "next time, I'm sitting at another table - that way at least I'll get something to eat . . .
We had enough and soon left to go home. I found out later that there were some arguments and when my father in law went to sit beside the Superior, the pastor immediately and publicly called on the Superior to say the after-dinner prayer. The Superior even motioned to him not to say anything and to keep it quiet etc.
There was a sadness and silence over the hall that was never there before as well and others commented on it.
The day after, my mother in law was called by a parish recruiter to ask if she would stay with the Women's League. My mother in law used this as an opportunity to "get a few things off my conscience" as she said.
For the first time ever, she said she is completely resigning from the League (it is practically non-existent anyway, thanks to you-know-who).
At this, the recruiter said, "So you'll be joining the women in the kitchen." And again the answer was, "Not on your life."
My mother in law was then told that "we must have compassion on Father!" (Apparently, there is something of an exodus from women's parish functions and this is proving embarassing for, yes, you guessed it!)
The recruiter was then told a thing or two about the nastiness around the parish, the comments about and to her husband and all this after serving the parish and you-inow-who hand and foot for months.
They didn't stay for coffee after the Sunday DL (first time in years) and are going to go to another parish every other week.
Everyone seems to be waiting for what happens after February and whether the pastor will remain there. We shall see. The Women's League is planning something for this Sunday during their AGM. It could backfire, but they've nothing to lose right now.
Will keep you posted!
Alex
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#274569 - 01/22/08 11:47 AM
Re: Problem in a parish
[Re: Orthodox Catholic]
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theophan
Moderator
Member
Registered: 11/27/02
Posts: 2690
Loc: Hollidaysburg, PA
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ALEX:
Sadly it sounds like your father-in-law had gone to a function with me. If I sit near the kitchen, they start serving at the other end of the hall and if I sit at the other end--figuring that's where they started last year--they'll start with the people nearest the kitchen. I even went to a banquet once where they moved from two ends of the table toward me and ran out of food so that both my wife and I had no dinner at all--she questioned the wisdom of staying married to me. 
It is tough; there are no two ways about it.
But with Great Lent coming up, it might be a good time to re-assess the whole situation. I use my own Lenten time to do just that. The Western idea of "giving up" something for Lent comes in here. Sometimes--IMHO--it's a good thing for one's spiritual focus to see if one is not too "busy" with "being busy." We're called to build a relationship with Christ first and foremost and sometimes too many activities can divert our focus and we get the idea that being about the Lord's business is about doing all this "being busy." Serving others is certainly a good thing, but it is not the first and foremost thing. Somewhere I have a copy of a post by Father Elias on this forum that I have gone back to time and again in this type of situation. He reflects on the idea of rejection in his vocation and it was such a good written reflection of a similar situation I'd gone through that I downloaded it for future reference. I'll try to find it and send it to you. Having been in a similar situation, I used the time to do more spiritual reading, praying, and private acts of service--calling and visiting people who are homebound, for example.
As far as the dinner goes, if one goes to a banquet and they don't feed you, it speaks volumes in the nonverbal communication that makes up 90% of human communication. Shake the dust from your shoes, move on, and be at peace. Remember that no one has the right to take away the peace that Christ gives. No one. And it's up to eacfh of us not to let them.
Your brother in the Lord,
BOB
Edited by theophan (01/22/08 11:58 AM)
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